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Michael Jackson Biopic Spectacular · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. Ken: Welcome to Neutral Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa! Lisa: Okay, Ken. So guess what? Ken: s s s s s s s s s s Lisa: Chicken thigh? I don't know. my god. Ken: There's certain dumb things that you don't outgrow and that's like one of them. eventually if you get old enough and you still like dumb jokes like that, they just call it dad jokes. Lisa: Yeah, it involves, but I... Yeah. Well, you're a kid at heart, so... I think there's a kid in there. speaking of kids, okay, did you grow up watching or like listening to Michael Jackson? Ken: I think there's a kid in there. Who didn't? I think everybody that grew up around our era loved Michael Jackson. I know the people that are slightly older than us, they actually lived through the entire prime Michael Jackson solo career. We kind of caught like, what? The kind of... Well, it was in the middle of it, but we caught more of the decline in Michael Jackson. Lisa: I know. Mmm... Yeah... Mmm... Yeah, Yeah, yeah, because, you know, we're millennials, so we saw the white Michael Jackson, you know? So we... Ken: Well, I think they explained, well, we should bring up why you're mentioning Michael Jackson, shouldn't we? Lisa: Yeah, well I saw the movie and I was telling you like, my god, it's so good. I loved it. I loved it. I wasn't even gonna go see it. And then my friend said, no, no, you have to go see it. I was dancing on my seat and people were dancing in the theater and singing along and I was like, really? What? She's like, no, I just thought it was like, know, some biopics can be kind of corny and you never know like how truthful it is. But then my friend, she sold it so well. She said like, it's like watching, did you like Bohemian Rhapsody? Like the movie that came out, it was years ago. It was pre-pandemic actually. And at the end, you know, they have a live aid with Freddie Mercury and it's you're like literally you feel like you're in live aid the concert from like the mid 80s and it's so fucking cool. this is very similar to it. And I'm so glad I saw it. I loved it. The music was so good. I'm a fan. I love I love his music like despite of, you know, his personal issues. His music I'm able to separate the artist from you know, the art so to speak But yeah, I was just I watched it I liked it the only party I honestly I didn't like and I wish they put a trigger warning because they did put a trigger warning at the beginning but it was like people who are photosensitive viewers and I'm like, there's all these lights Ken: Yeah, I don't think the photosensitivity part was the thing they were they should have mentioned only Lisa: I know, because in the beginning, it starts off when he's growing up in Gary, Indiana. Obviously, I don't think there's really no spoilers, because everyone knows his story. But Joseph, his father, was very abusive. And they show him beating on him for just making a misstep while rehearsing and whatnot. It's pretty hard to watch. I mean, it's not as bad as like, I don't know if you saw 12 Years a Slave. Ken: I did. It's pretty hard to get through. Lisa: my god, it's literally like at least 10-15 minutes of him being whipped and it's just so... I mean it's real life but at the same time you like you need to like prepare us like hey This is gonna happen. It's gonna trigger some people. This is It wasn't that bad. I will say that it wasn't that bad but for it to get like You know what the American thing I hate to say it like if it has a lot of violence PG-13, but if it shows a nipple, a woman's nipple, holy shit, R. We're just so backwards in that way. Ken: What we consider adult stuff, it's very perverse because I think in other countries they would think that violence is the thing that makes it more mature. More violence, more mature audiences. It's like backwards in America. Lisa: Mm-hmm. It's so backwards. don't get that. we just have, know, Americans have like weird hangups about sex and the pure Tanequil culture where it's like, it says it hard. But something super violent and know, especially violence against children, which I think they need to have some sort of warning in my opinion. The photosensitive thing, I didn't really notice. I'm not the demographic, I'm sure some people are. I did, and I thought when I was watching it, I thought, I want to talk about this in the podcast, because there's so much that came to my mind while watching it. know, the super obvious narcissistic family dynamic. And Michael Jackson, in my opinion, I think he might have been the scapegoat child. Joseph, obviously. He was a narcissist. It's super obvious. just wonder, because the movie ends in 1988. So it doesn't go into all the other stuff that he went through, you know, the accusations and that. But I did Google some stuff because I just wonder like how Michael. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: reconciled, know, he himself being a father and having, I guess he had three children. had the prince, Paris, and blanket, that's right. he himself, he made sure, I mean, he said this in interviews, there was an interview. this is an interview with People Magazine that I looked up, he's like, to this day, I won't lay a finger on my children. I don't want them to ever feel the way, that way about me. So, you can see the movie that he never, Joseph, the father, he never allows his kids to call him daddy. And I guess it creates that kind of separation. With the narcissistic parents, they value control over connection. And that's super obvious in the film. Michael even says you know I wanted to call him daddy so bad and he's like I'm not daddy I'm Joseph to you and I guess from I don't know if you've heard like a lot of the Articles and interviews but pretty much Michael got the worst of the abuse of out of all the children there were ten children actually You don't see it in the movie, but there's literally ten of them. They had a lot of kids and Michael was a very highly sensitive child and Narcissistic parents I can see them they tune in especially with a highly sensitive child. They will go after you they see you as like prey There was like the, there was a documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, that came out in like 2003. And, he said, I totally forgave Joseph for everything. He still calls him Joseph, not dad. And he did say that like, that the abuse he suffered did influence the way he approached fatherhood and, it made me realize something. So like, kids who grew up in abusive homes with abusive parents, I noticed that when they grew up, they are so willing to empathize with their abusive parents and their abusers. But I noticed that the abusive parents, or guardians, they're never able to put themselves in their kids' shoes, you know? Ken: you think about it, it's pretty much the old stereotypical narcissist. I don't expect anything less, I feel like. If you look at Joe Jackson, if he is a textbook narcissist, pretty sure some people could probably analyze his behavior throughout time. This has been a long public knowledge about Joe Jackson and how he treated his kids. It's definitely not something surprising that was in this movie or even the last movie with Michael Jackson. Joe kind of ran his life as kind of the ringleader or manager rather than dad. So he was pretty much dad only by like, legality. I think he spent more time just being their manager, right? And because he was a manager and their dad, he could get away with doing stuff like violence, like physical violence and emotional abuse. a lot of people that analyze the relationship between Michael and Joe, that's what they come to the conclusion of. It's like, this is a guy that really, I think he saw dollar signs and that was it. He saw dollar signs and like prestige for himself, that he was able to get all his kids pretty much to one part of the segment of entertainment. you could see it through the movie, especially in the back part, it's a lot of kind of emotional manipulation with Michael. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're abandoning the family. That's that that's in the movie. Yeah Mm-hmm Ken: Michael I think grew up with a gentle soul. he could have been, know, sometimes kids grow up in different ways or they end up in different ways being raised the same. Michael could easily have been like very self-serving and not thought about the other kids in family and try to get out as soon as possible. And you know, like at that point, he knew that he could probably Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: get that success because he was seeing it. People were enjoying him as a solo artist. He was making this career for himself and I'm pretty sure he saw it in a way where, this is my chance to escape. Like I see the crack in the door. If I escape right here, right now, my dad can't do anything to control me anymore because I'm my own man. And to know on the other side of the door, I have a career, I will be successful, I will have money. He can't use that against me. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Michael probably thought about that, and he had to weigh that with what Joe told him, right? Your brothers need you. We need you. Because the star of the show. So Michael kind of put his career on hold for a bit to appease his dad and kind of made sure his siblings were okay. If you could just drum it up that way. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah, in the movie it talks about how Joseph totally, the emotional blackmail that he played on him because his single as a solo artist was number one. He was like the number one artist in the fucking universe. and he wanted to do his own thing and Joseph was like, you're abandoning the family, you know, the typical emotional blackmail. because he knew that Michael, his temperament, we talked about temperament in the last, one of the, or second to last episode of like, how do some kids turn out some ways and some kids turn out other ways. I think with Michael's temperament, from what we know, being a highly sensitive child, he was probably very empathetic and felt a lot of guilt, right? So his dad knew, if I could just make him feel guilty that, you're gonna solo? What about you're gonna let your sibling starve? You're just gonna let that kick in by the wayside, leaving them high and dry or whatever? And you know, of course that made him feel so guilty to the point where it was... you didn't see the movie. Let me just clarify that like for the listeners, you did not see it, I went to see it and I wanted to talk about it. You pretty much, right Ken, you already know his story. I mean, everyone knows it, but for me was more as a fan of his music. just, I bet I would enjoy that, but also there was a lot of, for me it was very enlightening about the family dynamics. It was like a refresher, right? And I thought, it just made a lot of sense to me. You know, one thing you brought up, Ken, was that I'm very surprised that there are not a lot of mental health professionals who have made videos about this dynamic, specifically this movie. Maybe because it's too obvious, but for me, you're talking about Joseph. To me, I'm going to say 100 % he's a narcissist, and let me tell you why, okay? So. His- the way how manipulative he is, not just the emotional blackmail with his son, but the way he manipulates to get into the music industry, which is super fucking cutthroat. I mean, if anybody who's ever been tangentially related to the music industry or know someone who's in the music industry, you see that it is like fucking dog eat dog. Bad like that level of like you have to be the most ruthless person are super lucky, For that reason but like you're surrounded by the most like psychopathic people I can see and someone like joseph that motherfucker is ruthless And he's gonna do whatever it takes to make it to the top. He'll have to like kill cheat steal Whatever, we've seen people like diddy These people thrive in environments like that. it's funny because I was talking to friends about this movie and they go, this is a watered down version of Joseph. He was actually way worse in real life. it's not just me saying it because Paris, she did not promote the movie. She says this is fiction, it's fantasy, and she says it's a watered down version, you know, make more palatable for family friendly audience, which is weird, you know, with everything we see, like how is this family friendly? But Joseph was, this is just rumors, but from other people told me, you know, he had affairs behind his wife's back, he, You would sleep with groupies with the promise of like, you can meet the Jacksons. allegedly. These are rumors, but I wouldn't put it past them. You could see it. He's just a sleazy person. And the way he treated Michael is so heartbreaking. And the constant criticism, you can see how it takes a toll on Michael of not being good enough and created body dysmorphia. Obviously, like it's an eating disorder, but he never Michael never mentions it, but it's pretty obvious. And. it was really interesting and I wanted to talk to you about this, Ken, you know, both of us having narcissistic parents. And also, it probably related a lot to, so there was this interview with Michael's father. I guess he passed away a few years ago, right before COVID, I want to say. He was being interviewed by Larry King Live, and Larry King actually brought it up. He put him on blast and said, you abused your kids and whatever. He asked him point blank, did you make any mistakes? And he's like, no. I raised Michael properly. And... actually when I saw that interview, I thought, of course, of course he doesn't. He doesn't think he did anything wrong. Cause it's like the ends justify the means and narcissists live, they live in their delusion. They're so fucking delusional that. Ken: Yeah, let's just call it, like I love that new term, Dilulu. It's pretty much, But, okay, okay, stop. Yeah, but Dilulu is my favorite made up word, made up from real word, but that is true. This guy is textbook, right? have you ever met any kind of narcissist that wasn't so self-aware? Lisa: No cap. gang. On gang. Demir. Ken: that still kind of have that narcissistic behavior admit to that they did anything wrong. Lisa: Mm. that's... Ken: If that- if that happened, like, if that happened, I think a lot of problems would be solved, right, Lisa? If, like, your mom just burst through the door, like, the Kool-Aid man just be like, Lisa, I'm so sorry, I know what I did wrong. Like, that's never gonna happen! Never gonna happen, never gonna happen. My dad's not gonna admit that he did anything wrong. He might admit it to himself, maybe in the dark or something, in his room, and be like, I think I fucked up, but can't- my kids can't know this. I'm not telling them. He's not gonna let us know. Lisa: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm Ken: Joe is like the stereotypical I don't even want to say like he's like a pimp, but it's kind of like he's like a carny. He's like a carnival parker. His kids are part of his show. He's like that old sleazy guy. Always reminds me, Disney's Pinocchio? If you ever watched Disney's Pinocchio, you see those like the people that kind of like kidnap him and put him in that show. That reminds me, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: Yessss They trafficked him. It's child trafficking. That's such a weird movie. It's fucked up. Ken: By the way, the only way Joe got away with this, doing this to his kids, is because they were his kids. There's just something about, if he was anybody else, like their agent or manager, and he wasn't their dad, this guy would've been in prison, right? Maybe he wouldn't have been in in the 70s and the 80s, but he would've been in prison, like in the 2000s. Like, once people found out that this is what he did to his kids, he would've been in prison if it wasn't his kids. Lisa: Hmm. Ken: There's just something about, well, he's a tough dad. And that's always like a thing where people view... there's any kind of like black families that's out there and there's kind of like a cultural thing too, right? With how some black parents raised their kids, especially during that time period. Especially in the Midwest and the South. Like I've heard stories from my friends who grew up in that kind of family and it's not like... Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: It's not like to a beating of Joe Jackson to his kids, but it's definitely there is some, you know, there's some spanking, maybe like a stick somehow. But it is like a cultural thing. think Joe probably grew up around that himself. So, but it doesn't excuse that behavior, does it? Like Michael, all the other kids were pretty much his commodities that he was trying to sell. Lisa: you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Ken: And he was, yeah, and really, he was lucky that Michael was kind of, he kind of had that heart that not everyone's gonna be like that. Michael could easily had that success and totally look for revenge. He didn't. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Which is commendable, but I'm like, if it was me and my p- or you and- and- and- and- our our dad was Joe Jackson and we somehow got out of his clutches, you don't think we're gonna try to do something to him? But that's just us, so. Lisa: Maybe Okay, so there's there's something really interesting So online there's Julie Tice. She talks about she does like these Mostly celebrities these psychological profiles on them she says something really interesting. That's like I let me know if you agree with this or not Ken And I'm really interested to know what you think. So it's like, if you have one abusive parent, you actually have two abusive parents because, you know, seemingly the safe parent quote unquote allowed it to happen. I know you didn't watch the movie, but in the movie, so the mom, Catherine. She apologizes to Michael and he's in the hospital. He had his hair burned off for the, when he was filming the Pepsi commercial, his hair caught on fire. He's in the hospital, like his scalp burned off and to be very painful because a lot of nerves were exposed and he had to be like, peeled up and it was just a really horrific experience. And Catherine's by his side and just apologizing to him. She's like, this is all my fault. I'm so sorry I let this happen. I let him just bully you into doing this, tour with the, that you did not want to do with your siblings. And you know what Michael says? goes, mom, it's not your fault. You know, he's so forgiving to her and it shows his heart. But at the same time, I think now what we what we know now, Catherine was somehow complicit, I want to say, for her to sit back and allow all this stuff to happen to her children, because all of the children, were mistreated. you know, let's just say that. Right. That's share-of-coded. Ken: it. Lisa: Right. Exactly. Some got it worse than others, sure. But, I don't know, what do you think of Catherine's as the passive parent or the quote-unquote safe parent? what, what do you have to say about that? Because I have so many conflicting feelings and I don't know exactly if I would be able to articulate it, you know? Ken: Well, if you look at a family dynamic, it's like if one of the parents is abusive that the old adage is that the person that's enabling it is equally as complicit as guilty as the one that causes that pain, right? Because they could easily just step in and try to curb that behavior. But I have some compassion for her because you as kind of like the housewife kind of during that family dynamic. It's tough stand up for your kids in that situation. mean, We could easily have been talking about a story where Joe beats his wife to death, right? That didn't happen, but I could understand her fear. And also that just... That idea of being kind of like helpless towards this guy that has like kind of like abuse to the kids and I'm pretty sure he was abusive to her. So I don't think it's like a I'm only abusive to the kids kind of thing. I'm if this guy's abusive, he probably abusive to everybody, right? He's shifting his weight around. He's I'm the was patriarch at the house. You're the woman of the house. You have no say in this. I'm I'm their manager. I'm doing what's best for them. And if you get years and years upon that, I'm like, you as the mother, what could you possibly do other than take your kids away, right? That's the thing you hope the woman does in this situation. If you're being abused, woman or man, that you end up being the person to walk away. But when you have that many kids, could you take all of them with you in that situation? It's tough. It's easy to say that, she should have took the kids away or she should have stepped up to him. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: But then we could easily be talking about another story how Joe Jackson killed his wife. That's really easily could have been another maybe in the- We've been watching a lot of movies about multiverses and stuff like that. That could easily been in other multiverses. You know, his- Michael Jackson's mom talked back to Joe Jackson and Michael never had the opportunity to say, that's okay, mom. I forgive you in the hospital because his mom's dead. But who knows? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right yeah. Ken: But it's easy to say at that point, but until you're in that kind of like family dynamic and you're the housewife and you have to deal with that. man, it's easy to say that she could have just done this or that, but it's like 20, it's like 20-20 hindsight at that point. Lisa: I know what you mean. I feel very ambivalent because... Catherine, okay, on one hand, she is a victim herself, especially a victim of the times, being a housewife and all those kids. And then there was like, just not a lot of acknowledgement, but at the same time... You know, if I, like personally, like if I saw somebody mistreating my own child, that person not live see the next day. Let's just say that, right? But, you know what, hey, you wanna hear something weird? Okay, so you know how the Jackson family, Catherine was a Jehovah's Witness? And it reminded me of the movie Selena. I know it's so fucking random. Okay, so Selena. Ken: god. That's a movie that's also tough to watch too. Lisa: so Selena's family, they were also Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not shitting on Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, I've known people who are Jehovah's Witnesses, they seem really very nice people, very kind. But I just saw the parallels, right? I don't if you saw the movie Selena with J.Lo. That was a great move. JLo fucking killed, right? I don't know if you heard the rumor was that, so when Selena was shot, when they took her to the hospital, the family basically said, refuse for her to have a blood transfusion because we're Jojova's witnesses and it's against her religion and that would have saved her, right? So this has been a rumor for like years and years in the Latino community. But you know, just like the last few years, her family is like, no, she had already lost so much blood by the time she got to the hospital. Of course, it would have been like, yeah, have had a blood transfusion. I see lot of parallels with like the patriarchal family dynamics. He was just very, I think I can almost say like, I wouldn't say as bad. No, he was definitely not as bad as Joseph, but he did have that ruthlessness. And that's why his kids were able to advance. kids like the same way as Joseph. After school, you're gonna practice and after practice you're gonna go to a show, do a show at some some nightclub and then you're gonna wake up with barely any sleep you're gonna go to school and then you're gonna come home practice again so you could go to like like that level of like working your kid to death to to use to succeed and like live vicariously through them. You kind of like again you need that personality, to just to persevere. and Catherine being a Jehovah's Witness herself, there's a lot of internalized, misogyny because from what I know about Jehovah's Witnesses, know, they they're an interesting bunch. You know, I remember having friends when I was a kid in school who were Jehovah's Witnesses and they had to like leave the classroom for like when it was like a Christmas celebration or birthday celebration because they don't believe in that. It's just, let's just say it's different, right? I'm not shitting on it. I'm just saying it's different and I know they're very patriarchal and for her to internalize a lot of the, super hyper patriarchal misogynistic... Ideals I can see why she said my husband. He's just doing because he's the head of the household he's just doing what God ordained or whatever Ken: Well done. Well, not just that. It's like, think about the time she grew up in. You grow up during that time being a housewife. What options do you have at that point when you have that many kids and you live in the Midwest, you live in Indiana? It's like, what what kind of opportunities are there for housewives in Indiana? wouldn't be interesting to kind of like wonder what would happen if Michael and his siblings grew up during our time and they maybe like started getting popular on TikTok or YouTube or something like that. And Michael Jackson was just popular right now. let's say Catherine was raising her kids in the 90s, where she were, there were way more options for a woman. At least career wise, right? Our world has really changed since then in those decades. Before you would think, yeah, Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Housewife or stay at home. That's totally possible back then. Not now. Everybody has to work now. So... Would it be different if we lived in another world where Michael Jackson was in his prime right now? And he grew up in the 90s. A kid of the 90s. He's just like a millennial. What his mom have kept him there. Or would she have been like, you know what? I have my options. I could easily just take the kids. And you know what? I know Michael. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ken: And some of the other siblings, Jermaine, they're they're good enough to stand on their own. And you know what? I just have to give them a space space and they're ready. I could just, you know what? Drive them to the studio. They're ready, have a lot of interest. We don't need you Joe after a while, right? I think if this was a different time period, it would definitely show. I think it would have been different. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I think it's something that transcends religion. It's a lot about just growing up in the Midwest and the South during that time, being like lower middle class or just middle class during that time. Like your options are, as a woman, I don't think are, you don't have a lot of options at that point. Being a woman of color, right? Lisa: absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ken: Yeah, I think we've lived in a time where we still see the power dynamics between men and women, between races and stuff like that. But it's a thing where we could look at it and be like, well, we could try to transcend that. Whereas people that lived back then, a couple of decades ago, there's no way out. Lisa: That's a really good point you know, women couldn't even have their own credit card until like what, like the early 1970s, right? So. Ken: I know, I'm just like, you know, would kinda, cause we sometimes forget, we take it for granted, right? We've lived a while where we kinda see like, women, men having jobs, you know? Women would end up making more money and you know, now the talk is about, man, now men don't like that, that women are making more money than them or being more successful, right? There was a time where it's like, man, or- Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ken: I wish my wife would work because we're really running out of money a little bit. If she'd get a part-time job somewhere at the supermarket, that would be great because we're getting stretched really thin. And that was the conversation back then. Now it's different conversation, right? I think really is. It's like her options were different. Like her options were way different. Does that give her a pass? It's tough. It's tough because Lisa: Mm-hmm Ken: you as a colored woman during Lisa: It's so tough. Ken: that time and you had that many kids and you're and it's it's hard when you're living with narcissists it's not he's not only joe's not only affecting the kids he's affecting his wife too so they're all under his thumb so Lisa: Mmm. Ken: If you get enough of that, you just end up, defeated. You're just in survival mode at that point. You just don't want to be like, you know what? I don't want to piss off Joe and have him go on one of these tantrums. So it's really tough to say. You know what it is? It's easy for us to say. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. I... It's so complicated, but it's a really good discussion to have. You know, with Catherine, I... I do feel compassion for her, but at the same time, She's not absolved from... Copability. So... Ken: Definitely not. Lisa: It's, like you said, it's tough. but it makes you think, okay, so some like Michael, he broke the cycle, which is pretty obvious maybe being a scapegoat child or the highly sensitive child, he was able to break the cycle because he says, I mean, he said he'd never laid a finger on his children. And from what I know, from what his kids have said, he was not abusive to them. But something interesting that I read, allegedly. So, know, Jafar Jackson, Michael Jackson's nephew who portrayed Michael to like fucking perfection. Literally from the voice to like the dancing, everything. I thought I was literally seeing Michael myself, like that level. He was so good. Well, his father, his father's Germain. he married a Colombian woman. And so Germain, he himself is known for being abusive. And from what I've read, he beat up one of his partners and abused them and allegedly hit his own children. So, he's had his issues with violence and you know, he perpetuated the cycle someone like Michael was able to break it. And it doesn't surprise me that there was violence, especially like in the black community, because if you go far back enough, if you see like from like the slave days and the beatings, I was in New Orleans back in December and I don't know if you ever gone to New Orleans and been to their plantation tours, Ken: That part I didn't go to. Lisa: I mean, it's super historical, how can you not? But it talks about the violence and I can see... No. Ken: It's because to me it's painful. I'm not even black and it's painful to try and look at that. One thing I would bring up, I remember growing up, if you grow up in LA that's one benefit you have Lisa: Yeah. Ken: but I remember growing up and we had speakers from Japanese Americans who were interned during World War Two and they would. Yeah. So, so, so we, we, we talked a lot about Manzanar and it's just painful, right? And it's like the weirdest thing, right? All the kids there. I don't think, I don't think any of us were Japanese American, but we looked at that and I was like, Lisa: Manzanar! The Manzanar, yeah! Ken: We felt so bad for them. And we're like, we're asking questions that what third, fourth graders would ask them. It's like, wait, they just took away everything and put you in a camp because you're Japanese. And they're pretty much like, yep, that's pretty much what it was. you know what? you could tell their pain. It's over, you see things that, you know, Lisa: Mm-hmm Ken: You embody their pain. think that's the thing about it. You look at it and you just see history. If you see history and it's not good history, it's like it talks about a lot of pain, such as slavery and plantations and you know, like people being interned and people getting killed and you're like, you don't feel anything towards that there might be something wrong with you. I'm just saying that's why I think that's why I didn't want to go because it's like, that's painful to watch. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Ken: didn't know what kind of Lisa: You know what? That's so fair. Yeah, I've actually been to how many? Three plantations in Louisiana. been to New Orleans a couple of times and it's a great city. I love New Orleans so fun and the French Quarter, but... It makes you realize, okay, that's why this violence, once it starts, this cycle just continues. know, it's like, was talking about Julie Tice earlier. this blueprint that or imprinted in you as a child. this blueprint you would just keep recreating recreating our trauma figure out how to break it you're right exactly and to see like like some more plantations especially i heard the sugar plantations were very violent towards the slaves and that's why allegedly well Ken: The one to break it. Yeah, the one to break it, yeah. Lisa: They say, you know how New Orleans is like the number one murder capital of the states? It's because it stems back to these sugar plantations that were super, super violent. your brain just normalizes it as a way to cope with it. And it just gets passed down from one generation to the next, right? And I see it, and I could see it just kind of trickled all the way fucking down to Joseph Jackson, right? And the way he treated his children and the way... And it's not just endemic to the black community because you see a lot of violence in, for example, like the Latino community. with my mom, my grandmother, my mom's mom, my grandmother had 12 children, you know, very Catholic, very religious and... my grandfather, he was very abusive and she even told me one time when I was a little kid in Mexico City and she's like, grandfather, he came home drunk one day and he tried to hit me and she's like, I grabbed, I don't know if it was like a paw pan or something like that and I said, if you ever fucking touch me, I will, I'll do this, this is to you and I was just like, I was a little kid and I was like, oh, okay. And you know, I've heard a lot of stories about like my mom and her siblings just being beat with like electrical cords and whatever was on hand that my my grandfather, like he came home from work and he was just angry and exhausted and like and it's funny because they would call him like they never used the word Jekyll and Hyde but they say like the public persona he pointed out that he was so overly accommodating and so nice to people in the public but when he came home he was very abusive to his children. and it's interesting because, you when I talk to my who I am close with and he does live in the States, he has never laid a hand on his daughter. He's like, he is the complete opposite of corporal punishment because he says okay and he even told me this that was super interesting okay it's okay to okay so if you hit your spouse if you hit your dog if you hit anybody else it's considered abuse but when you hit a child it's considered discipline one adult cannot hit another adult but you can hit a child who's not an innocent who's in defenses does not understand it's it He gets it and he's a psycho breaker himself. I know he's very philosophical. He's very intelligent I'm very close with him And I and I get that unfortunately, my mom was not the type stereotypical like la chancla, you know with her little her flip-flop Okay, I know you're laughing. my god everyone I'm sure a lot of people can relate like Ken: Yeah Lisa: You know, the chancla or she like, she would use the belt on us and she would call it el amigo, her friend. Ken: That's just... that's just... ooo that's just warp behavior right there. Lisa: Right? And it's like... And this is the thing... It's weird and you think about it and I do have to say what people like in Latino community say, la chancla, I will say this, That thing can turn corners, okay? It's a fucking... Ken: Well, yeah, Latino moms know how to freaking curve that little slipper. Lisa: Oh, it's like a ninja star or like... Have you ever heard of like... Yeah, like a heat-seeking missile, know? It's like it's... I swear to God it's fucking alive. I swear to God. They... What the fuck is up with it? It's crazy. Ken: Yeah, it's It's all in the wrist. You're essentially throwing like a little frisbee or boomerang. Yeah, yeah, it's a flick. And anger plus years of cultural know-how just makes it a dangerous weapon. Lisa: boomerang, ninja star. Right? That could be a clip. I could totally see that as being a clip for this episode. It's like... it's like the ninja star heat seeking missile. You can put like a video of the chunk life of the chunk life and it's just like... It turns the corner. Ken: Put some flames on it. Believe me, believe me, if you ever looked on TikTok and like, like YouTube shorts, there's, there's so many skits about chanclas, like just fricking aiming, like for some reason, just being the most accurate things ever throwing out, being thrown from their mother's hand. Lisa: I know. I don't know if your parents ever did that with the the chancla or the belt or always just yell at you Ken: No, my parents, I think my mom... It was... the blinds and stuff and you know there's like a little... You know like a stick that you turn it and it... it closes and open the blinds and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of them broke off and my mom used to chase me around with it. Lisa: yeah. Ken: I remember, I think my mom told my sister one time when I was like a kid and she was like, all you have to do is hit him on the hand one time and then he'll never do it again. And really, my parents didn't really hit me that much. It's really the threat of hitting me because of that one time. So I could not say like I was an abused kid, at least not physically. Mostly I think it's different. They got me the other way. So I think... Lisa: Okay. Ken: Yeah, my mom used to discipline me with that stick, that, you know, from the blinds. And I remember it. just remember kids, kids remember certain things. Usually anything that's really, traumatic or really like memorable, like exciting in a way, don't remember it. And that's one of my memories I had when I was like a kid. Is that a good or a bad thing? You decide. Lisa: I don't think I just the threats like you should do something because you know, it's a good thing like good parents It's funny because I've seen good parents first hand recently, new parents, know millennial Gen Z parents and the way able to get their kids to behave It's really interesting because it was just like okay. No screen time tonight of course the kids will scream and stuff, but they'll realize, okay, I'll have to take something away, but you don't have to hit them to get them to understand. Like it's just so barbaric. you know what's weird, Ken? So like with my dog, for example, I've never really hit her. Like I don't, you know, she's my baby and I don't... So the only time that I ever did like corporal punishment on her, okay, so like she, there's one time, I think she had something in her mouth and I was trying to get out. So she just like grit her teeth at me and tried to like snap at my fingers, like try to bite it. Cause I was just trying to get something out of her mouth and told me, tap her nose, tap her nose. So she knows like her little snout. so she knows not to do it anymore. So tapped her snout. And when I did that, it wasn't even hard or anything, but I tapped it to like, no, that's not good. That's not, you don't do that. And I, and I felt so, I felt so guilty. I felt so bad. I'm like, my God, I abused my dog. I used PCA, you know, the arms of the angel. Like you can, could hear Sarah McLaughlin's singing at me, like you horrible. And that was like the extent of my corporal punishment with my dog, but I've never like hit my dog. I had this one roommate. She had this dog called Mima, right? This is bigger dog. And the dog would get so excited to see her when she would come home that my roommate hated the fact that she piddled, that the dog Mima piddled, that she would start spanking the dog, like hitting it. And the dog would get so scared that the dog would pee again. So, and I'm like, what the fuck? I didn't really say anything, you know, I was really young. I was like maybe 18 at the time, but like. For me, it's an involuntary response, you know? It just happens. I know that now. But even as, like, even if I were that age at that time, I'd be like, you know, it just happens, whatever. The dog's just excited to see me. That's just their reaction. I just can't see myself hitting my dog. It's just like the concept of like animal abuse or child abuse is just so beyond me. I hate it. I hate reading about it. I hate seeing it on the news. I hate it. Ken: Well, Lisa, you know how I am. I think my weaknesses are like animals and, little kids. It's, if I, there, I seriously, if there's any situation where someone's like abusing their kid outright or abusing their dog in public, I think I'm going get into altercation because at what Lisa: Mm-hmm Ken: point could you abuse something being more helpless, Abuse like a person or like an animal and These are, you know, souls that can't protect themselves and at what point you're like, okay, they get the point, you gotta stop. and the thing about it is... Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ken: You know what? I get mad when people are just like mean to their pets. for me, it's a bad thing. I sometimes see people just not feed their pets or it's just something simple. Like their pets are bugging them and they throw something at them to go away. I'm like, Hey, what's the point of having a pet It's, it's really You shouldn't have a pet at that point. And I see parents that do that to a pet or a kid, was like, that's like unacceptable for me. there has to be other ways, I'm also a person that's like, you shouldn't let your kid get away with murder, right? If you have a kid and he's doing something wrong in public, you gotta stop that. You gotta explain to the kids, you can't do that here. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And that's thing I worry about, Lisa. People are our generation, they're our periphery, they have kids. They could easily just be like that parent that's just hands their kid an iPad, it's like, here you go. And then, or they just do something, they throw a temper tantrum, they start stealing stuff from stores, and the parent's like, that's fine. My kid's like that. Don't be mean to my kid. Lisa: Mm-hmm. What's it called? What's it The gentle parenting that the Ken: Ooh, that doesn't work. In my opinion, that doesn't work either. So it's like, there has to be a good medium, right? You have to be a parent that's like, doesn't have to always resort to violence. But not get, let your kid get away with murder because you have to teach your kids what's acceptable and stuff like that. You have to teach your kids empathy. You have to teach your kids, you know, how to be a good person because it's not, this whole world's not about you. one. Lisa: okay, I just have a question. Do you think gentle parenting is a result of like over correcting where it's, okay. I'm just wondering about that because I just keep reading about gentle parenting, gentle parenting. I'm like, letting your kid just, you know, we've seen it, you know, when you go to restaurant. Ken: It could be. It could be. Lisa: and the kids literally running around like tables and screaming and the parents are just like on their phone scrolling on TikTok, what the fuck they're doing, maybe Tinder, Grindr, yeah. Ken: yeah. by the way, you know what's a terrible place to be at? There's the Edwards Theaters in Van Nuys that if you go there on the weekends, it's this theater that used to be like, I'm not sure if there's a hometown buffet there, but there's definitely a Costco in that area. I remember going to that theater right after lunch for matinee, and if you go on a Saturday or Sunday, there would be little kids. Lisa: Which theater? Ken: running up and down the aisles with their parents just like, I'm not gonna do this shit about this. I'm just gonna let them run and tire themselves out. Which is fine for them, they wanna take their kids out, they wanna go out with their spouse and watch a movie, but you know, me without a kid has to deal with the kid running up back and forth up and down the aisles. While I'm watching like Super Mario, I like, this is not good, right? You gotta do something as a parent. Lisa: my god, like we're in a banana This. That sounds very distracting. Ken: Just- I al- Lisa almost became a parent at that point. I was- I was gonna get the kid and be like, hey you can't do this. I'll be your daddy now. No th- th- th- You ever had a time where if someone doesn't treat their- their kid or like their pet well, you're like, okay you're coming home with me. Lisa: hahahaha Ken: And I'm like, I don't want to kidnap cats or dogs and humans, but sometimes it's like, that person should not have a cat or a dog or a human being in their care. You can see it. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. my god. Yeah, I can see that in when is something weird, okay, So what funny when I was in I saw this movie when I was in Mexico City This is business in the 90s. Okay, they don't do this anymore Just so heads up They don't you know, it's like always sell out of seats They don't just like stop selling tickets. They let you sit on the steps. So people were literally, it was like full, it was people like, it was a total fire hazard, but I didn't know this. know, I was a little kid and I was like, yeah, of course. And it was like this movie from this like very famous singer. don't know, Gloria Trevi. Anyway, so anyway. Ken: yeah. Ooh shit, wasn't she on tour like recently? She was on tour in America recently so that's like yeah. Of course I do. Where do I live here? Where do I live? You have to know some stuff. Lisa: yeah, she's just been on tour. you know about her? No shit. yeah. A lot of people don't know her but my god. Yes, I love her fucking music. I grew up listening to her and anyway So it was a movie that she came out. I was a pelo suelto or what? I don't remember but in the theater Everybody was seated like on the the steps leading to the like it was just so packed And thinking back, obviously as a kid it's normal, thinking back I'm like, what the fuck is a complete fire hazard? This would never fly in the States. And even when I go back to Mexico and I go to, so they have this theater chain called Cinepolis, and when I go see a movie. It's very nice. Very nice. Especially if you go to like the hoity-toity areas, the rich areas of Mexico City, where it's like they'll carry your popcorn for you and it's like, even your bag. And I'm like, why do they do that? And then my dad's girlfriend was like, it's because a lot of the rich people here, they're not used to doing stuff for themselves and they're used to having help. So that's why they do it. I'm like, what? Like it's like super fancy. Yeah. Yeah. Ken: Must be nice! Lisa: Yeah, the stratification is like insane, right? Ken: Yeah, cause we forget that there's parts of Mexico where people living in Mexico, they're just like loaded, right? And... Actually, if watched the soap opera, was like, hmm, that person seems like they're loaded. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, you're either like fucking Bill Gates or you're... What was it? Really poor person. Who could it be? Yeah, not even that. You know, I'm talking like, like you don't even have hot water. Ken: I don't know, us? It's coming to a point where a lot of places in the world, a lot of countries, we thought this was beyond what it was before, but there is a lot of stratification where there are just like a couple of rich people and a lot of us are poor. I'm just saying this used to be like, oh yeah, this is a third world country kind of thing, right? Nope, it's everywhere now. Lisa: yeah. that's another topic. I think we're getting a little off topic. Yeah, we might have to, you know. Yeah, anyway, I just thought about that, about the theater thing, how ridiculous it was. It doesn't happen anymore, just a heads up. But when I was growing up in Mexico City, there was a lot of crazy shit that I saw that I just didn't realize it was crazy until I moved to the States and I'm like, Ken: I'll cut- Yeah, I think after we guys cut this out, it's like you could easily go into sociology about this, yeah? Lisa: okay. Okay. Ken: By the way, things that are regular are not crazy to you until you see something else. I like, this is not normal? And then you're like, it's kind of like, well, you compare notes with your friends, like, your parents didn't do this to you? Oh my God, I've been living a lie. It's kind of like that. It was like, you're telling me your parents don't beat you and talk shit about you to your face and try to starve you in your room. was like, what, your parents don't do that? No! Lisa: Hahaha Wow. Ken: I was like, oh my god. Zap Boba and they were like, oh no. Lisa: Yeah, you need that like outside reference to realize, yeah. Ken: hi Lisa, your parents don't take you on trips and everywhere and you know buy you dresses and stuff like that and you know like have you you know like go on like tea parties and stuff like that and all-american girl store and what? I thought that was... Sheep! Your friend probably thought that was... your friend probably thought... must be just me then Lisa: New clothes? What? What's that? That's a thing. That's just, no, I don't know about that. No. No, I, yeah. Okay, So going back to the corporal punishment thing, have you read Matthew McConaughey's memoir? Ken: And you. I didn't, but you know, I have a good idea what's in it about his parents. Lisa: Okay. Okay. So in his memoir, he talks about like his father, used corporal punishment, like would beat him. I think it was with a belt, from what I remember, until he bled. would, that's what it reminded me of when I was watching it. And I started to be so dark and, but, right, it's called green lights. That's right. it's weird how like as an adult he justifies it as, if my father hadn't done that I would have been running the streets and getting into trouble and whatever. I think he justifies it, but then you know, he himself has like what, how many kids? He's married to Camilla, yeah. She's really, really beautiful. Camila Alves, yeah, she's so beautiful. I don't know if she's a model. She's probably a model because she's so pretty. do have, a couple kids. And you know I am willing to wager that he does not use that same corporal punishment with his own children as his father did. I just, I don't think he does. But the fact that he's able to justify his father's treatment, it reminded me of like when Michael was like, you know, I forgive him and I understand it, but I was like, but the fact that you can... You must realize that it was not good. And Michael does it, like to be fair in the interviews, Michael will say, I was fucking terrified of my father. Like even as an adult, you can even, you could tell. and Matthew McConaughey, it just suffices it, but the fact that they don't perpetuate it, they know it's wrong. But I mean, somehow they're able to forgive it and excuse it. It kind of sounds like they've internalized their own father's abuse because it's like the ends justify the means. It's like, became successful. So it's like, know, when people tell you it could have been that bad because you came out so good, you know? When people say that. Ken: Remember I told you about survivors bias? Like we always look at the successes in terms of like a survivorship basis. Like we see kids that were abused and they somehow became successful and we don't think about the kids, all of them that are in prison or like died. Think about that. Think about that. We praise the successes. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ken: of these things, so we think it happens more often than not. But more often than not, if you treat your kid like you treated Michael Jackson or Matthew McConaughey, it's unlikely that kid's ever gonna get out and have a normal life. Even being a celebrity, forget about it. There's no way, there's no way. Your kid's lucky to have a regular job and stay out of prison, I think. That's really what I think. If you abuse your kid to that degree, if that kid does somehow one day doesn't perpetuate that form of violence on someone else. That's really a crap shoot in my opinion. I think that's more likely than not that that person's gonna end up not being the best of civilians in the world. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: and it's a lot of this stuff. It's, it's, know what it is? It's like the person's like Matthew McConaughey or Michael Jackson's, they've seen their successes and you know, just let it go. I think that's really what it is for them. It's just like, I'm just gonna let it go. It's like me dwelling on this is only going to hurt myself, right? If I internalize this and you know, make it all about, Hey, my dad beat me and stuff like that. And I'm internalizing it and this just. perpetuating how I live my life and I complain about it and I use this as like skews I think at a certain point you have to let go in order to move on because if not you'll go crazy you'll go crazy it's like all you keep thinking of is like you think about your inadequacies and think about how your mom or dad just did that to you and I think for them in order to get past it surpass that kind of like block is that they have to accept it like hey it sucked but I guess it was ends justify the means because look at me now, but it doesn't work for every kind of argument, right? Like you see someone that's like totally messed up and you ask them how they grew up and it's like, it's not good. I'm like, well, here's your antithesis of that, right? Lisa: Yeah, because on my Instagram there was these videos of I don't even remember what the handle was like Fentanyl in Arizona or some shit and this dude he just goes interviews all these fentanyl addicts in Arizona and you they all have these like horrific stories of abuse and you go, yeah, of course, they ended up the way they did. But then, people who've had even worse stories, and then you find out, I started my own company from the trunk of my car when I was homeless, and I built this Fortune 500 company, blah, blah, blah. And it invalidates a lot of what you went through. Maybe it's a trauma, either. It's like a trauma response, right? It's like I'm gonna be the most successful person, but it comes at a cost, I think. Ken: And even that, like I mentioned, is a survivorship bias. How often does that happen? A dime a dozen. You're hoping that person gets out of their situation, doesn't become a drug addict or something like that. And, you know, even if they become a drug addict, transcend that and make something out of your life and make something productive out of your life, you know. But how often does that happen? Think about it. I think we're it's overblown, I think. Lisa: You know what? my God, yes. Yes, because you know why? Okay. So the whole thing of like, American version of success is having a good career, making a lot of money, but it doesn't take into account having good family. Dynamic, but someone like Michael Jackson. He had a pill addiction. He was an addict. Listen, let's let's let's mince words You know what? Let's call a spade a spade. He wasn't addict. He had a lot of issues. He wasn't not just an additive pills cosmetic surgery He had a lot of mental health issues that we don't talk about That was the cost right? There's just because he had a lot of money. He wasn't on the street. He just had Ken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lisa: I mean, we don't know about Matthew McConaughey, what issues he has. You know, we just know. I didn't read his memoir. I just know the highlights of it. I know I have it. It's on my list. And my list is so long of like all these celebrity memoirs. And I just, trying to go through it. But like, once I read it, I'll figure out. But it's the whole, it's like, oh, you turned out so well. And then you realize like, there's a lot of people don't know. Ken: Well, well is relative, I think. Well, in terms of, you know, like perceived success. Yeah, we think about Michael Jackson being the biggest pop star in the world. Kind of still. As soon as this movie came out, I think a couple of his hits just shot up the charts. Right. That's the that's the allure of Michael Jackson. This is something that like he's he's transcends even after death. So it's like it's rare that certain musicians do that. But you look at it, it's like Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Think about it. Michael Jackson has body dysmorphia, know, had eating disorder. You know, he had some might have said his behavior was kind of off with, you know, young people. There's other, yeah, inappropriate behavior. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was inappropriate. the very least. Okay. Look. We don't know what... should guess them. We don't know. But he was inappropriate. At the very inappropriate. A grown man should not be sleeping in the same bed with children. Like, let's just say that. Let's just... Ken: We don't know the exact truth, that's the problem. That's really the problem, Well, well yeah, because it's even if you're not malicious, it doesn't look right, right? Something off with that. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, it's yeah Ken: But you could easily see Michael's behavior and look at us like, my god, I think he's a grown up kid. Lisa: my god, can I spill some tea? Okay, I'm not gonna name names because I don't want to get anybody in trouble, but I have a very good authority, someone who worked with them on Captain EO, the Disneyland ride. So I was like, so how is it working with Michael Jackson on... Yeah, I was just like, my god, how was it? They were like, okay, basically I was told that... Ken: Awesome. Lisa: When it came to the work, he was very professional. Everything else is very childlike. Everything that was outside of work, he just acted like a child. And I was like, okay. And I was like, okay, so second question. Do you think he did what he was accused of? And what they told me was that, look, if he did what he was accused of, he didn't think it was a bad thing because he himself, thinks he's a child so him doing something to another child wouldn't be wrong in his kind of mentality. And I was like, okay, okay. Yeah, I mean, obviously, because nobody really knows and there's a lot of speculation and back and forth. I, did you watch the documentary, Finding Neverland? Ken: you That's a vague statement. Yes. So... What do you think about that? It's... Lisa: my god, I just wanted you to... Okay, my answer is like... Fuck. It's just... It's... The same way feel like with... Katherine Jackson or like... I have like super nuanced ambivalent feelings because... He's not here to defend himself. And... Ken: Yeah, but I think there's a lot of, Michael, why did you do this? Or even put that out there for someone to speculate what you did, like... Jeez. Lisa: I will... Yeah, and with the kids, know, interviews like two, one of them was like the dancer, was it Red Robinson? Whatever his name is, and some other one. Anyway, they both had very parallel stories about being groomed, which is, I mean, you know, the people who, minor attracted children, which I don't wanna say the word, because I don't want us to get demonetized, whatever. Everyone can figure it out. The grooming process, it's pretty much pretty similar. What they do to groom, I don't know. Honestly, I think I'm just gonna like, I set this out and be, don't know. If he did, fuck, it's horrific and. I don't know. Ken: Yeah, if it's true, it's horrific and this is proof that if you have parents like Joe Jackson, it's not a good thing. Can we agree about that? Yeah. Lisa: Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, because we... Right? To say like, he turned out so well. And then you feel... Yeah. Ken: he didn't turn out well, like we listed all the stuff that was wrong with him. And you remember how he died, right? Overdose on prophyfol. He used it- he couldn't sleep. This is a man who couldn't sleep at night. So he had to have a doctor inject him with a frickin' thing that they give people anesthesia. Lisa: Thank But he couldn't sleep so... Yeah. Yeah, I think the dentist gave that to me, you know, to get my wisdom teeth out. that... Yeah. Ken: Yeah, think about it. You get that for colonoscopy too, just put it out immediately. at least if you can't sleep or if I can't sleep, we're just like, you know, at worst, I'll take a Z-Qual. If I really... Z-Qual makes me all groggy and stuff. Some people take like Ambien or something like that. Some people figure out something. But when you have chronic insomnia, there are people that use like... Lisa: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ken: anesthesia to put themselves to sleep and like what kind of trauma or messed up kind of like sleep state do you have that you can't go to sleep on a regular basis? Think about that. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, insomnia. Exactly. Insomnia is definitely a symptom of like, I'm sure he had a complex post-traumatic stress disorder. There's the CPTSD, right? There's no way he didn't have it. And from the way he grew up, so of course Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: People like that they have nightmares insomnia sleep disorders so it does not surprise me that he had the sleep disorders and he had to like it escalated like for him to resort to Propofol whatever it's called like for him to get to that level it had escalated for years this is not overnight Michael Jackson was hooked on... opiates. Supposedly it started from when he got, Because he was on heavy opiates after his accident with the Pepsi commercial, and that burned his hair, and it burned his scalp. And then your tolerance just builds and builds and builds and builds. Ken: And you just wonder, you hear these stories about pro athletes and you know, like, know me, like watching like pro wrestling and a lot of these pro wrestlers, like they're in constant pain. opioids and all these kind of like concoctions that they have. And, you know, a lot of them just die from heart failure or heart attacks or something like that in their forties. So it's like the cost of like doing business, unfortunately. For Michael Jackson, Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Yeah, you could see him as success. He was like, yeah, look at how popular this movie is. Look at how popular his music still is. This is a tortured man. Lisa: Yes. Ken: Up until his death, tortured man. You could say he was a success, but... Ooh! Growing up with a guy like that. And have you seen like the later interviews of Joe Jackson? my gosh, what's up with that guy's eyebrows? It's like, it's like, he went into like a grooming place and he was like, you know what, give me the villain's eyebrow. Look at it! It's, cause you know, he plucks it and you're like looking at it it's like... Lisa: Mm-hmm. You Hahaha Ken: But it's like an evil pluck, right? It's like an evil eyebrow. It's like, if you told a Disney, artist, draw a villain, it's Joe Jackson. It's pretty much that eyebrow. It's like, what the heck? It's like, he looks like a caricature, really. The older he got, the more caricature he got. If you look at the stuff, like he got, like his interviews, like later in his life, my gosh, this guy looks like, man, if that guy doesn't play a villain, we're really. Lisa: you Mm-hmm Ken: have a wrong concept of good and evil in this time. He looks like a villain. Lisa: He does. my god. Ken: There's no doubting, just his outward appearance, this guy looks like a villain. Remember that thing with Don King and stuff like that? It's like a villain meeting a villain at that point. know, birds of a feather, two bad people talk to each other, makes good business and stuff like that. But you look at him, you look at him as like... Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: He's the embodiment of evil. It's not many people you could just look at and like, that guy... Right? I was like, you look at him and it's like, that guy is not normal, right? He doesn't play the hero in this movie, Lisa: King? No. Ken: No, Don King, Joe Jackson, same thing, right? You look at him and it's like... Wow. Lisa: Well, according to the Joseph promises Don King, he's like, maybe you should go into industry, you know? Don King goes, and Michael will be there, right? And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it's the typical bullshit artist that he is, you know, typical narcissist. Yeah, of course. And of course, Michael did not, he you know, he was the biggest pop star in the world with his solo album. And he already planned on this tour with like doing his own thing. And then it cuts to like Michael finding his dad in his room, the dimensions, you know, and like. you have the number one cell. I was like, and Michael's suspicious. And he goes, what do you want? And he goes, uh-huh. Because he's like, yeah, yeah. He knows his dad's a very transactional person. Ken: Ha! Yeah, dad, I'm pretty sure you didn't come here just to congratulate me on that. What do want? Lisa: Yeah, someone who never you is... Yeah, yeah. It's very sus, right? Someone who's never complimented you in your entire life and you're just like, oh, you know, I've always loved you. What? Who? What? So of course, Michael's like, sus, you know? We can relate, right? We're just like, mm. course, guilt, that's when the guilt trips. Ken: Yeah, you were never good enough. Yeah. Yeah, father, what do you want? Lisa: It's like, well, you know, there's this worldwide tour and we can make all this money and you don't want to upset your siblings and you don't want let them down and you you're a family, right? You know, all this bullshit, emotional blackmail. So. But yeah, that's in the movie. If you had seen it, because I think you should see it. I think you'd enjoy it. And I think. Ken: Well, you wanted to do this episode before I could go see it, right? Lisa: Well you said, well you told me you didn't want to go see it because Ken: I was gonna watch it soon, but you know. Lisa: well, you know what? It doesn't matter. You know what? Because I think you'd enjoy it nonetheless. Because the music, I think you and your fiance would enjoy it. music. Ken: They're gonna cut that part out. And yeah, you know one thing I want to bring up is, especially like recently with a lot of these like blockbuster movies that have been coming out, they're getting panned by like critics. Like critics hate a lot of the movies that are coming out, especially I think one recently was like Super Mario. Critics hated it. They hated Michael too. And the next thing on the list that they kind of hate is The Mandalorian and Grogu. Lisa: yeah. Ken: And that's like a movie I really want to watch. And it's a lot of it is like, people always say the same thing. And it's like, okay, I'm not sure if you could attest to their responses or combat their responses, because there have been people that have, there are critics that say, this is pretty much like a Michael Jackson, propaganda film, right? It doesn't talk about, you know, the bad stuff that Michael Lisa: Yeah. Ken: was accused of doing and it just kind of ends the movie prematurely, right? But I think like for the movie, I think the people that created the movie really wanted to time stamp this part of Michael Jackson's life, right? His childhood and growing up with his dad and that really was the focal point. I feel like some of the critics lost the point of it, They're thinking it's like a piece of his entire career, right? From childhood star to superstardom to like, hit the fall, like, like the descent of his career, these allegations. but the thing is it's, it's like, do you think it's valid? Like the complaints are valid that it's just like, yeah, why did they talk about this part of Michael Jackson's where he doesn't look like he's the villain? Lisa: Yeah, you know what? This, again, this movie was not for the critics. It was for the fans. And I could totally see that. The critics, they don't get it. It's just like, oh, we didn't address those issues. But like those just didn't even happen after this. Those issues happened after 1988 and the movie stops. Ken: Well, well, even the movie even says that there might be a part two, right? Like it's like, I'm assuming it's dependent on how this movie does. And you know what? Yeah. Michael will return, right? Lisa: Yeah Oh, it says at the end. It says at the end. yeah. Something along those lines where I'm paraphrasing like, this is the first part, blah, blah, blah. So obviously there's a second one. So sounds so well. There's no way there's not going to be a second one, even if they have to like do whatever they need to do. Ken: Well, yeah, there really is, especially recently, a disconnect between how the audience perceive a movie and how much they like it or not like it compared to what critics are thinking, right? I think it's even more so now. It's a weird thing, right? I think fans, especially with these movies, have a different expectation than critics do. Lisa: Right, they're like, the critics are hoping this like, expose, that's like... Ken: Expose or actually put some drama into certain things where you know like a tortured soul and you know the bad stuff he did and it's like whoa wait for part two that might come out so Lisa: Mm-hmm, But I think it did a really good job of portraying the dynamic between Michael and his father. And albeit it was a very diluted version of Joe, because I heard it was a lot worse. But I highly recommend this movie. It was, you know, besides what I mentioned in the beginning, the music. You could see his genius. The way he was a perfectionist. His work ethic was, I mean, unbelievable. And you really appreciate it. really loved it. you know what? everyone I know who's watched it was like, oh, it was great. I had so much fun. It was entertaining. the day, that's what movies are, right? They're there to entertain you. Ken: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But you know, like, there's some critics or some people that go to movies that's like, I want a good cry. I want to be upset and I want a movie to fuck me up. There are some people like that. Most people want to go to movie and have a good time. Some people just want to go to a movie and have a miserable time coming out. It's like, that ruined my life. That really brought up issues that, oh my gosh, this is horrible. Like, you go watch like Hotel Rwanda and be like, oh great, great movie, great movie. It's like, that movie. Lisa: Okay. haha Yeah, right. Ken: I like, I'm sure of it, but it's like, man, you really want something brutal, right? Like sometimes you just want to go movie and have a good time. Lisa: Shit. Right, Schindler's List or what we're talking about. Right? Or 12 Years a Slave. People want like... This is not really it. Wait, no pun intended. No pun intended. Not that this is it. Sorry, no pun intended. I didn't even mean to say that. Like, this is it. Ken: God. Yeah, go there, yeah, be a critic of like, yeah. Yeah. Just go in and be like, I don't like this movie, why not? Not enough people got beaten in this movie. I don't even feel the pain. Where's the suffering? Lisa: Mm-hmm. the allegations against them? Ken: Where's the allegations? Where's the him dangling the baby outside the window? The balcony? I don't know, but you know... But how do you think casting of Jafar was in the movie? Because he's the son of Jermaine. And we all heard... You just stated what Jermaine did as a father, so... Lisa: was that blanket? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Okay, like I said earlier, he was fucking phenomenal. And is a lot coming from me When it comes to nipple babies, I'm very critical of like, they got this, this, this, this, whatever job part. because of their parents or their connections or whatever, because, you know, I'm salty about it because lost jobs to the executive's nephew who got interviewed who had zero experience So I'm very salty about like the nepotism and cronyism kids. so for me to be like, he fucking killed and there's probably I can't think of anybody else who could have done what he did. That means a lot. kids. Ken: I feel like he got a blessing from the greater family too. think the kids of Michael Jackson were like looking at that. was like kind of eerie. Kind of eerie. Kind of eerie that our cousin kind of like looks like dad a little bit. Well, they didn't see that. Yeah. And they didn't see their dad during their prime. So it's almost like surreal, right? Like you're looking at your cousin and he just turned into your dad during his prime that you never got to see. So it's like going in a time machine. So it's like there has to be something interesting about that, right? Like. Lisa: Yes. And Dude, they had the same voice. Yeah. Hmm. yeah You know what he deserves an Oscar. gonna say right now if he doesn't get the Oscar You know, it's rigged holy shit he fucking nailed it when I say nailed it like he When you watch the movie you'll see the dance moves Ken: He really embodied it, so. At least a nomination, right? Lisa: He had it, he, I mean from the interviews I saw from him that he practiced for months and the voice naturally came to him like Michael's voice. So there's something and also he, there's a resemblance in the face, especially in the eye area I noticed. So everything just came together. You know, everything just kind of coalesced and for him to portray him holy shit and he knocked you out of the park I can't think of anybody who would have done it better and I would say the same thing about Jennifer Lopez when she did Selena Ken: know when classic movies, you know, like they have like character just do so well, you can't imagine someone else doing it. Maybe, like I bring up the multiverse thing, it's like maybe in the multiverse, like someone else did it and did pretty good too, but for the time being, it's like you can't imagine someone else doing it at the moment. And you as an actor, think that's a good job if people would say that. And the thing about like these biopics is if these actors do a good job in it, it's almost always a nomination, at least. So. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yes. Ken: It could really boost your career. Look at Jamie Foxx and you know. Lisa: of the Bohemian Rhapsody, did it Sam Raimi? Was it Ray Sam Raimi? Ken: no, Rami Malek. Sam Rami's the director of Spider-Man and Evil Dead. You're thinking Rami Malek. Lisa: Oh my god. Oh my god! I fucked that up. Oh my god. Yeah. Raymie. I knew it was a Raymie. But yeah, that- He- Yeah, he won the Oscar for like Bohemian Rhapsody. So I- Look out for that. I just wanna say to the listeners, look out for him. Go see the movie. If you're a fan- I know Ken you said, oh don't expect tears. I will say, okay, I will confess I did get teary-eyed at the end. I got teary-eyed, was like, you know, for me for a second I had forgotten that he passed away. Because I felt like he was just there, like he just seemed so present. And I was like, oh he's no longer with us. It just, I got so teary-eyed. the last scene is a performance. And I was like, I hope he's finally at peace because you can tell he was never really at peace. had an inner turmoil in his own mind and in his own, everything he went through, especially the last few years of his life. He was... You could tell that took a toll on him. The accusations, everything took a toll, such a toll. I just hope he's just at peace. You know, he just found peace and he's at the other side. Ken: It really is a cautionary tale. It's like if you have if you're Joe Jackson and you do this to your kids Lisa: Mm-hmm Ken: I don't think all the kids will end up, you know, spick and span like good life, right? You can see he is irreparably damaged up until his like final days like Michael Jackson, so. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ken: It's an indictment on Joe's parenting. It really is. Lisa: Yeah. It's just... It's so sad. And he seemed like such a gentle person, my heart breaks for his three children, you know, he left behind. For me, that's like... And they've had their own issues with mental health and it's really obvious, especially with Paris and she's talked about it and my heart breaks for them. And I understand that and... Ken: I just wonder what they felt when they watched that movie. It's like it's like watching pretty much like the abuse of your dad growing up. Lisa: Yeah, his, yeah, It said at the end, it's the executive producer, Prince Jackson. was like, his son, his own son, he produced it and Paris doesn't want anything to do with it. Blanket has not made any statements. So we just assumed that, Blanket is doing their own thing, which is fine. their prerogative, you know, that's reliving something. And that's... Ken: It's tough. Lisa: We, our version of Michael Jackson as fans is completely different as someone who lived with him. So I totally get that. And from, they just know that's not how he was or whatever, that's them. I, for us as fans, it's a great movie. We enjoyed the music. You see his dynamic with his family and, again, we weren't there, but I... And I totally get it with this family. His son, and I've seen interviews with his own son Prince where he talked about it and it's really interesting. And Prince seems to have a very positive outlook on his dad and things that happened know, do you want to leave it at that? Do you want to just like wrap it up? Ken: Oh, this is a tough one, right? It's tough to talk about Michael Jackson. It's like as a person and as like a performer, because as a performer is like bar none, one of the best to ever do it. I still bought Michael Jackson in my car. still bought Michael Jackson in my car. And it's like, if there's any Michael Jackson and it's just like. And I kid you not, every now and then I think about. The Moonwalker video game, I don't know why it's just like I think about that on a regular basis and it's. Lisa: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 100%. 1000 % Me too! Ken: I'm not sure why, it's it's kind of like that thing where he's kind of banked a lot of, you know. like positive memories in people's minds. it kind of is really, it's odd kind of situation because he's definitely not, he didn't have like the best of lives and then he had that, accusations against him. So it's definitely, and the way he passed away, it's it's a strange life, isn't it? Even from being a fan, looking from the outside, it was like, that's a very strange life. A lot of people always say, what happened? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: and it's always like, what could have been too? And you know, that always happens with, you know, celebrities that kind of pass away prematurely. I guess we'll never know about like some of this stuff. Because it's just, at this point, the book is kind of closed on that, so. Lisa: Yeah, we should. Yeah, that's a good way to wrap it up. you know, it's a nuanced kind of perspective of his life. said, you know, we appreciate the art and we can separate the art from the artist. Ken: So I guess it's probably good to leave it there. But there's one thing for sure, Lisa. I know this for sure. Joe Jackson's a like, asshole. Asshole! I don't think there's any doubt about that. You could doubt anything else in the storyline, but it's like, in the whole event of things, I don't think anybody ever says, Joe Jackson, great guy. No, no, no, no. He's a frickin' monster. And this movie just pretty much showcased it, right? Lisa: Yes, fucking... No. yeah, and if there's any justice in this world, wherever he's at, it's very hot. I'll just say that. And with that, I will depart and say thank you guys for listening. I appreciate it and I hope this episode encourages you to see the movie, which I loved. I loved it. I like it. I just danced in my seat. I just fucking sang it. But thank you guys for listening. We were so appreciated. Okay? So bye Ken. We'll talk soon. Hell yeah. Alright, bye. Bye. Ken: Bye Lisa, I'm gonna go bump some Michael Jackson right now. Bye everyone! Bye!