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The Brooklyn Paramount Theatre: Michael Hittman on the Shrine Everyone Walked Past · Author Hour

• speaker-0: Thank you so much for joining me, Michael Hitman, the author of the Brooklyn Paramount Theater. Before we get into the story of the book itself, can we get a little bit of background about you, the man who became the author? speaker-1: I began as an anthropologist and I remain an anthropologist. I have a PhD in anthropology from the University of New Mexico, and my field of expertise is Native American studies. I work with and for a tribe in Nevada, the Errington Paiu tribe, and I've focused in my reputation is good and bad in terms of I've written the definitive stuff about the 1870 and the 1890 ghost dance religions. The 1890 ghost dance religion led to the wounded knee massacre, which is iconic ⁓ in American history, December 29th, 1890, the massacre of 350 men, women, and children shot in the back, baby shot in the head by by our vaunted American military. And unfortunately, what followed the bad news, unfortunately, worse news, unfortunately. was what followed was opium addiction. And it came upon me in a serendipitous way by interviewing my consultant. We used to call him informants, a wonderful man named Corbett Mack. And I'll translate this from French. So I was smoking a joint and interviewing him and Corbett said, What are you smoking, man? So I said, ⁓ Corbett, you wouldn't know anything about this. So he said, Well, Mike, if you really want to get high, you should try opium. So I said, wow. I mean, Chinese opium? He said, ⁓ yeah, everybody used that around here. And it was one of those things. I've read lots of books, I've read everything about the Great Basin, and not one person wrote about opium addiction, which was really peculiar because a very famous anthropologist wrote a very famous study about peyote. It has nothing to do with drugs and drug addiction. It's listed as a narcotic by our. our our intelligent government. And Umer Stewart wrote and tried to explain why these Indians that I subsequently lived with rejected, ultimately rejected a Ben Lancaster who introduced this peyote cult. And it just didn't make any sense. His explanation it didn't make any sense. And he left out opium addiction. And ⁓ my counter argument and you know what I'm known for also is that it was an opium addiction and imprisonment and you know arrests for selling and for using and imprisonment when they get out of jail, they they they didn't they didn't particularly want to use peyote and get arrested again. So you know that that's the stuff that got me started. And then when we get to the Brooklyn Paramount, we'll talk about bridges in a in a couple of minutes. I was able to use, I think, what I learned from my wonderful families. Well, one particular, Rafael and Ida May Dick, who I lived with and kind of like an adopted son, my sister Linda. And I was able to use stuff that I learned about Native Americans and apply it to the Brooklyn Paramount, particularly the notion of sacred space and the attachment to the land that they have, and the way the land, of course, was ripped off from them, and all of that. But But but in nature and and the power of that, and then when I got when we get to the Brooklyn Paramount story, ⁓ to me, the Brooklyn Paramount is a shrine. Believe it or not, it never it it never was listed as an endowment. It's the first motion picture theater in the history of the world that had talkies. And for all its wisdom, Long Island University, which bought it in 1950 and still owns it, they never they never did anything with it. Despite a film program, they never and I myself was a professor there for forty-six years. I never paid attention to it. I played basketball in the auditorium, it was converted to a gym ⁓ for 50 years. And I say that because the Guinness Book of Record, somebody called me up and said, Hey, Professor Hitman, has anybody played basketball for 50 years there? I said, Well, let me think about it. I'll get you I'll get back to you. And then of course I said, Duh. Me at Frequent and as a professor until the late twenty tens, I I played hoops there. So I called back and I said, Me. And they said, Who? Abbott and Costello, who's on first, remember? Yeah. Me, him, who? So I said, no, actually I ⁓ if take it for what it's worth, but Professor Michael Hitman played hoops there for f for fifty years, not every day. And ⁓ I still didn't pay attention to the Brooklyn Paramount as a place, as a sacred place. And then we can get to that story now. speaker-0: Yeah, so is is that how you got interested in it in the first place? You were working at the university that owned it, playing basketball in it, not paying attention to it. What was the speaker-1: Not paying attention at all. I was an undergraduate. I went to movies there. The the w LIU owned it in nine ⁓ purchased it in nineteen fifty from Paramount, from Adolf Zucker, and they decided to run movies. They they they made two decisions. One is they would lease the right to ⁓ to show movies from nineteen fifty to nineteen sixty-two, and they made a tidy summer movie. So every day at three o'clock the movie theater would open. So we were in classes next door. The buildings are attached, but you know, with walls and whatnot. They're separated. So I knew there were movies there. I I personalized it. I I can't believe I never paid any attention to it until we started a radio program. LIU I should finish the other sentence. The other part of it was they were freaked for basketball. So LIU used the movie theater and made made considerable income from 19 fifty to nineteen sixty-two when they shut it down completely. And also by by leasing it out to rock and roll promoters and jazz promoters and wrestling people and boxing. And you can name it, they use the stage and they use the theater, you know, for events. So you know Alan Freed did eight famous iconic shows there, his Jubilees and and any any number of other and then and then we'll we'll get to jazz in one minute. My my thing's been jazz. The the bridge is a very powerful word. Now I know this will sound loopy, but Sonny Rollins just died. And he was, you know, a very close friend of my brother's, my late brother, who was a very famous jazz musician. And Sonny loved Jeff and taught him and this and that. And Sonny asked me to write his biography. It never happened for a lot of reasons. But the Williamsburg Bridge will be renamed the Sonny Rollins Bridge now that he's he's dead. So that's that's in the works. Sonny Ryles' most famous, maybe album, record album was The Bridge. And it was a quartet album. Sonny took a sabbatical because ⁓ I think I'm not allowed to say this. John Coltrane came on the scene and scared the shit out of him. And he was the man, and you know, he was like 30, 31 years old, and there was nobody like Sonny Rowlins. You know, he was the prodigal son, and then from nowhere came his friend. John Coltrane, a rhythm and blues honker, and who developed this incredible, genius, brilliant style that I think really, and I know it really fright frightened. I don't know if that's the word. Kind of a competitive juice, Hemingway and Faulkner. And it's a creative, but but scary private thing. So anyway, long story short, we moved from the Lower East Side. My brother was studying the clarinet, and then he went to the saxophone. And he had a thing with his father, my father, our father, that he wasn't going to play Jewish music. The parents were worried, what are you going to do with anthropology? And what are you going to do with music? And this and that. So for Jeff, you'll play Jewish music and you'll play Babisfis and you'll play weddings and you'll make a lot of money and you'll, you know, you'll be very happy. Well, Jeff had his revolt against my father, his father, and he said, I'm not going to play Jewish music. And he quote, discovered Sonny Rollins. Before I have heard of Sonny Rollins, I was a rock roll guy, Alec Fried, Saturday mornings and the evening. ⁓ my God, rock and roll. We'll get to rock and roll and Allen Freed. And my brother discovered in some intuitive way, or whatever, Sonny Rollins, and he memorized all Sonny Sulas. And which was pretty amazing. He was pretty precocious. And then bingo, we moved to Grant Street. Sonny Rollins retired, took a sabbatical, lived in an apartment across the street from where we lived. And and was practicing for a year on the Williamsburg Bridge. He could blow as loudly as he went and you know, black man was a saxophone. Nobody paid attention to him, except those who knew him. My brother, Charles, some people who used to practice with him. And and long and the other part about this album, The Bridge, which he made when he came back out of that forced retirement, was Sonny act actually asked me to audition for the Jim Hall part. So I was a guitar player. My brother played tenor saxophone and not not a very good not a very good guitar player, but I I I smiled and I said, No thanks, Sonny. It's Jim Hall. And subsequently, when my brother died, I began playing pretty seriously and wound up playing a lot of concerts. The scariest thing of my life with I taught for forty six years and lectured, I don't want to say all over the world, but all over this country. And I never was afraid, but Plugging in and playing chords for Sam Newsom, the famous Sam Newsom, or Pete Yellen, the famous Pete Yellen. It just scared the shit out of me. But I did it. I did twelve concerts. I never made a mistake. Thank God I don't have to do it anymore. So bridge. And then we'll get to you know, we'll get to the Brooklyn Paramount in a minute. My brother died ⁓ a tragic way, the way of drugs. Sonny just had recovered, came back from Rikers Island. He had a was involved with a robbery and he straightened his life out. Told my brother, Jeff, you want to be a jazz musician? See, we went to visit Sonny, and my uncle was a DJ, had a lot of balls, and went over. And when we told Uncle Elliot that Sonny lives across the street, man. Elliot, Uncle Elliot Ashfrey went over, rang the bell, said, ⁓ I'm Elliot Ashrey, I'm a DJ station, so and so. And my nephew would love to meet you. And Sonny said, Come on over. We went over, we met him, and Sonny said to my brother, Jeffrey. Are you going to use drugs? My brother didn't know about drugs. I didn't know about he said, No, no, Mr. Rawls. And that had a very happy ending. But talk about the bridge. The Brooklyn Paramount was built by Adolf Zucker, who owned and built Paramount. speaker-0: Owned and speaker-1: Obviously one of the maj look at it today, my God, one of the major the six Jews. And it's amazing from a certain little area in disguise, Adolf Zucker, you know, Marcus Low, ⁓ the war they came from this little area near Hungary. And and it was a furrier. He was a millionaire by the he came poverty stricken, you know. speaker-0: Studios. There's a famous book called Who Built Hollywood? Warner Brothers. So Adolf Zuckerberg he was a few speaker-1: Alice in his pocket, like my grandmother came and he earlier he was a millionaire by age thirty, and he discovered silent films. And for whatever reason he said, This is what I wanna do. He started making silent films. Remember the film era? speaker-0: Was a fur. The silent field occurs obviously before the talkies, the Brooklyn speaker-1: Paramount is the first ⁓ talk. not exclusively for the talkies. Nineteen twenty eight it opened on November twenty fourth, nineteen twenty eight, and it closed, you know, again in well it closed in April, whatever the date was, nineteen two. Film was Manhattan Cocktail. The last film was Hatari, film John Wayne. speaker-0: A great problem with and so you know h here we go, this bridge business. speaker-1: Business and and Sonny came and actually did an honorary doctorate. ⁓ we gave him an honorary doctorate, and it was a wonderful day. So now let's get the speaker-0: Actually. So, speaker-1: Here I am and if sh is I'm a and woman. speaker-0: You wanna say something? No, no. That transition into the book is perfect. Okay. So speaker-1: I'm a professor of anthropology and I know nothing about the Brooklyn Paramount. Nothing, man. I mean it's just a theater. I used to go to movies to Radio City. I mean a I never went to ⁓ the Roxy, which is the biggest one of all. I went to the New York Paramount. Went to the New York Paramount to hear Patty Page sing, How much is Doggy in the Window? Boom boom. Adolf Zuckerberg built twelve hundreds or r or leased them and they were Paramount. So there's the New York Paramount, there's Staten Island Paramount, they're all over the country. All right. speaker-0: Okay, I Okay. Movie theater. speaker-1: And then he built Brooklyn was hot, you know, in nineteen twenty eight. And fathers wanted to keep Brooklynites in Brooklyn, but had a mutual ⁓ understanding. He would build a Brooklyn Paramount in downtown Brooklyn across from the Manhattan Bridge, the three bridges that connect Manhattan, you know, and ⁓ the Williamsburg, you know, Sunny Rollins, and then the Manhattan Bridge and the Brooklyn Bridge. Fathers speaker-0: Built. And the Brooklyn What so So the Brooklyn. speaker-1: wanted to keep Brooklyn Knights in Brooklyn instead of going across the New York Paramount. So expand this right depression. And he built a whole bunch of theaters, including the Kings. And then it was sold to Lowe's. Marcus Lowe was one of those six Jews. Marcus Lowe was his one of his best friends. And it became Kings and we're still the Brooklyn Paramount. So the Brooklyn Paramount opens and you know and then all of a sudden speaker-0: So Zucker was happy to ⁓ So, speaker-1: I make friends with a guy on campus, a fellow professor, S serendipity, and ⁓ his name is I don't I have to say something about him because speaker-0: Stuart Fishel. I dedicated the book to him. speaker-1: And he was a professional photographer and he was in the film program. He started a film program at L I U Brooklyn at Long Island University. speaker-0: Brooklyn. Brooklyn University was three schools. The first was in Brooklyn, it was the CW Post. speaker-1: First one was in and the second one which was in Brookville, Long Island, and and the third one was in Southampton. And remember Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island are peninsulars, not a London, not an island and all that stuff. And so in its own exp expansionist way ⁓ speaker-0: After World War Two, they bought speaker-1: property in Brookville and they opened this what's called and they opened Southampton. It the the millennium, I mean Jazz is really hot. Ken Burns does, you know, his series, I mean the amazing series. And jazz, which is, you know, always Hoorhouse music. I mean that's what it was. It started in the honky tonks and it was associated with brothels and, you know, funky honky tongues. And it never had respectability. speaker-0: So in the with the speaker-1: Even in the nineteen fifties. I mean rock and roll practically drove it out of business. You know, like ⁓ all of that we know about played in Alan Freed's rock and roll bands. They were happy to work, Eddie Burt, ⁓ you know, big big Al Sears. And and and the point, you know, the point being speaker-0: All of the famous jazz people. So they get Is that Stuart speaker-1: Started a film program and used to bring in and had spy there and John Casavites and Jenna Rollins and John Houston names and take one look at the Brooklyn Paramount, the basketball court, and say, God, man, I mean, why doesn't your school do anything? And Stuart, you know, shoved his soldiers. And Stuart hired me and randomly as radio. Okay, an NPR program by you. speaker-0: Mike Lee who did the daily stuff. They would take one look. God. Shrugged. Coincidentally to to do a jazz radio show. Okay. So L bought a rating speaker-1: station in in 2000 some out of Southampton. It was an NPR station. And they smell jazz, you know people who know about money smell money. And those of us who don't, you know, we it smells and they needed somebody to do some experimental shows. Stuart knew about my connection to Sonny Rollins because I brought him in for an honorary doctorate. So they asked me to speaker-0: They hired some folks to run it out. We say, speaker-1: has in and I said, Well, you know, I've been thousand hours of Native Americans. I know a lot of the musicians through my brother. So I started doing it. ⁓ Mike, we don't have any money to pay you. Mike said, Well, all right. I'll be glad to do it on an experimental basis. And if you find the money, I'll take it. And if the station manager, Dr. Wiley Smith, kind of wise guy in a man, you know you're good. I said, I know what you're talking about, man. speaker-0: If you'd I think I could do it. Vitamus. I did the shows. I was smart Bill Shaft, the most famous producer, record producer. speaker-1: I brought in Phil, famous person in Japan, producer and all of that. Fill in and I brought in a bunch of people. So I was a little bit shrewd. I wasn't planning anything, but it was fun to do. And then they said, Mike, why don't you keep doing it? So Mike said, Yeah. Respect. And then they paid me some money and then they didn't have money and then I had some money and they didn't have money. I wound up doing a hundred and seventy-four shows. They cost me about four hundred apiece. speaker-0: Let's do it. Then they have speaker-1: And I got paid for probably thirty nine of them. I'm a full time professor. I was really happy to do it. And then I started getting involved in jazz. And then the next thing was the Brooklyn Paramount. I needed a hook. I everybody knows the marquee. John John Driggs, famous ⁓ photographer, had a the LIU Brooklyn, I'm sorry, Paramount Marquis, Luke Ellington, and then you know it said film Frederick March, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So everybody speaker-0: So I saw the The British said do He knew that Duke played there. He knew that Duke came back before speaker-1: And I came back before he died and played a concert in the Paramount Gym is what they were calling it. And I focus it on the Brooklyn Paramount. And once I decided to focus it on the Brooklyn Paramount, two things happened. All my radio guests, I would walk through the Paramount for speaker-0: Said duh, let's let me The foot speaker-1: What Stewart heard, duh, man, why doesn't the school do stuff, man? Yo, what's up with this? So I said, I can't explain it. And and I I I you know, I'm a professor. Say, ⁓ come on, man, you have money that they have money, you know. Yeah, right. Everybody else knows what everybody else has. And it and it struck me. So I started going to the library, ⁓ which is where I live, where I lived anyway, and I class at the Brooklyn Paramount, and it absolutely blew my mind. speaker-0: You know, Research Jack. Because except speaker-1: Everybody, Billy Holliday, every major jazz musician, Billy Holliday, ⁓ Louis Armstrong and Coleman Hawkins, three major figures, everybody except three played there. It's like, whoa. I mean, give me a break. I named the program that and Stuart and I started talking and we had these serendipity experiences, you know, the ⁓ what do you call those say it in German. speaker-0: So Freud called fr I won't say in German that so did Jung, you know, his disciple Jung called these experiences called speaker-1: But Freud wrote about And Freud coincidences or unhomely in German. It's like it's not part of the household routine. Like, where does this stuff come from? Example, when Stuart and I started talking as friends, as colleagues, he said, You know, Mike, I went to Troy Donahue's ⁓ engagement party, Suzanne Plachette, and Eugene Plachett, who was the manager of the Brooklyn Paramount, was there. So I said, Wow. speaker-0: From Let's say speaker-1: And then I had experience. Brooklyn Paramount. I'll give you the last one and we'll I'll skip over everything. The wa the the punchline to do a book together. I'll say that speaker-0: Look, it's that we decided to book the second but I had experiences like speaker-1: You know, the when the Brooklyn Paramount opened in nineteen twenty the first chapter, because nobody would knew it would close, there were a bunch of there's about twelve theaters downtown. They all be they all shut down. They're all sh you know, the the Lowies Metropolitan, the Strand, and Brooklyn was hot and it's it's hot man is it hot down there in downtown Brooklyn. But in nineteen twenty eight, all these guys, they're speculators, they're they're capitalists, you know. speaker-0: Be the fox. You know, destroyed. speaker-1: God bless them. They're l interested only in money and they'd be wonders. And the Brooklyn Paramount was one of them. speaker-0: ⁓ Built all these theaters. Okay. And it was like today it's called because speaker-1: the first chapter because as you know or maybe you don't know, Long Island University, you know, and it you know, out and then Live Nation, which which is ⁓ you know, I won't use the motherfucker word, but ⁓ they spent sixty six million dollars to restore it. So they're calling it second chapter. And of course American History Theatre wrong. You know, a when they talk about speaker-0: Owned it. They leased it. They leave. Basically, Second supposedly an email then those second chapters speaker-1: First time through tragedy and the second time through is it comedy? First time through tragedy because none of the young kids who work there, I'll give you my second none of the anything ⁓ and don't care anything about Rudy Valley, Fanny Bryce, Eddie Camp, the vaudevillions who were there, Milton Burrell. And by the same token, I know nothing and frankly care nothing about the music. speaker-0: The first it was a tragedy because work there serendipity experience. The kids know who work there know Mm-hmm. The seller. speaker-1: But they haven't had 200 sellouts. And apart from Bob Marley and Sting, Bob Marley's son and Sting and my favorite, one of my favorites, Nora Jones and Tom Jones. I don't know anything about those groups. You know, the the the Electra Amoeba, you know, the fried scumbag, things like that without exaggeration. speaker-0: This Lecture. So all they have is these basically these white. speaker-1: Kids who come now and they put in seven bars to make money. As the manager told me, Mike, we have to make the money back to Live Nation. Seven bars drunk. Kids just jump up and down and scream. And from I don't care about, or I'm not missing anything, or the world's not missing anything. In any case, it's reopened. Second chapter. speaker-0: Mm. Because ⁓ For like these kids It's ⁓ The chapter. Okay, so that's really so so Stu chapter. Stuart and I planned the book. He do the photographs. I was gonna tell speaker-1: We would do an old tell you about my serendipitous experience. Second chapter, when it opened, I'll skip everything that came before. I went in, Margaret Holmes was the first new theater manager 2024 when it reopened March 24th, 2024. And Margaret, one day I went in and I worked with her because I helped her rebrand the place. And she said, ⁓ Mike, I had the weirdest experience. I came in. speaker-0: With the app Fourth. speaker-1: And there was no one here. I opened the place and I I'm imitating her brefiness with respect to say, I heard someone singing. And I ran around and I turned on all the lights and I couldn't find anybody. So I said, It's Julie Andrews singing. So I said to her, You know, Margaret, my daughter works for Julie Andrews. speaker-0: And she's Who do think it was? speaker-1: ⁓ at ⁓ but she was working in publishing with Harper Collins. Wow. I had a bunch of we had speaker-0: So I was still we're gonna do a book. Okay, he's gonna do the photograph do the texts. speaker-1: He comes down with scleroderma. This horrible. speaker-0: Disease which led to this speaker-1: Crazy coincidence when they finally diagnosed it, eventually he died, I him and you know, one of my dearest friends. He has scleroderma, no one can help him. Bingo speaker-0: die dedicated the book to him. He was a great man he was a great guy. So, speaker-1: Out of the film program Norman Steinberg. speaker-0: Who's Mel Brooks's buddy if speaker-1: If you read Mel Brooks' biography, Norman is in the index, you know, a hundred times, best man at his wedding. Norman wrote Blazing Saddles for Mel Brooks. So Norman starts the film program ⁓ at the Brooklyn Waterfront. And Norman also unfortunately died. And one of his best friends is Bob Saget. B Sagitt's sister died of scleroderma. speaker-0: ⁓ continues it. Normal is So Bob speaker-1: And was treated at Johns Hopkins and Bob gave a lot of money to Johns Hopkins. Unfortunately, he didn't survive. And, you know, he wound up dying in a hospice. And Native Americans, I have this is a little corny, but I'll say it. I gave one to him and I said, I'll see you on the other side. I'm holding on to one. That's and let's talk about speaker-0: We got stu Yeah. So much I dedicated the book to Stu about the book. Can we? All right. Let's talk about the book. What's w I I'm curious, sort of when you made the decision to write the book, what was your vision for what it would accomplish for you? speaker-1: Well, I mean I written only one book for money. I won't tell you. The Royalty are about like seventeen cents a year. I made a biggest mistake of my life. I asked to write a bo my humorous took over. Very, very bad. And I shouldn't have done it. speaker-0: Yeah. These are I was It. I did it. It took ten years. All the other books I write. speaker-1: ⁓ I wanted nobody told me, nobody put a gun to my head. I did, you know, what the f I wanna do and I still do what the f I wanna do. I just decided I wanted to do a book on the Brooklyn Paramount. Since it was so neglected, the jazz story was neglected during speaker-0: During my radio interviews, I always brought up, you know, brought up the speaker-1: Broadcasting from Brooklyn Paramount Broadcasting for the home of ⁓ Alan Freed, Rock and Roll and Jazz, you know, like that. And I decided with Stuart and we had a and I I combined the two and it was so speaker-0: There's a book too. Stu died. We couldn't I couldn't do two books with a Turkish publisher. That I had to do speaker-1: Dramatic cuts both in the text and the photographs. speaker-0: Do the book, and the book was conceived as the four. The original title was the four. speaker-1: conses of the Brooklyn Paramount plus more. Now it's an intimate Brooklyn Paramount. The four faces films vaudeville, jazz and rock and roll, plus more. speaker-0: But what are the Is is that how the the book is set up, the kind of the different eras that the theater goes through? Yes. It's set up that way with stuff the speaker-1: Yes. The you know, opening backstory of the Paramount, then the Four Faces, then plus more. And then, you know, Sayonara, L I. comes in, takes over, and I I focus on L.I.U. and the Brooklyn Paramount. And then I had to speaker-0: Are you focused completely changed the book 'cause the nation wasn't there. speaker-1: Why and it was all like an you know, like an o theater and well and now that I had to change everything, you know, it's like the second chapter is at me. You know, the first film was Manhattan Cocktail. Paramount did a thing. You know, these people people know who make money know how to make money. And you know, it's not that I admire. I mean, you admire that. I don't not speaker-0: Thanks. speaker-1: I'm not a capitalist that way. I mean, Adolf Zucker was a frickin' genius. He showed once he opened the Brooklyn Paramount movie in Manhattan, they showed it in Brooklyn. Brooklyn people wouldn't go to Manhattan. Manhattan cocktail, which actually was a silent movie. It's called the First Real had the first talkie was not a talkie, right? And it's speaker-0: At the So Okay. Actually called first talking really it had only two. So ironically the all right played in both places. speaker-1: And for a bunch of years the Manhattan showed in Brooklyn too ri and the rival boroughs. We are still rivals, the Dodgers and the Yankees and all of that stuff. I'll get to that in a minute. And let's film was Hatari. Okay. So along the way, you know, Airman is sued for monopoly speaker-0: Less than a passion because they have twelve hundred theaters, they they move the you can't, you know, do it. They lose out. speaker-1: Make the movies and they show them in their own theaters and you and then you know and then they broaden the whole thing. Make and other MGM and Warner Brothers start showing movies in the Manhattan Paramount, the New York Paramount. And I mean, you know, nineteen twenty-eight to nineteen sixty-two, thousand films. Films are shown with now the second films. speaker-0: They fewer movies and blah blah blah. Lowe's and comparant. ⁓ Vaudville. speaker-1: And then a sixty or seventy minute vaudeville show. And vaudeville was it had a dog act, it had a bear act, it had a clown, it had a singer, and then but along the way, I mean Bing Crosby the Brooklyn Paramount. Okay, whoa. You know, and again, Bob Hope, you know, unbelievable who was there. speaker-0: Eight acts. It has ⁓ speaker-1: And starting out. These people then became star and they became star film and all stuff. And films until nineteen thirty-four, the depression cut out. And then the one was start showing a second. speaker-0: Vaudeville was there with Phil. What should we do? speaker-1: No live acts. But that there were still shrewd people who wanted a okay for for live acts in a minute. Third thing was jazz. I mean, gee, Cap Callaway was there with his orchestra. Mildred Bailey, great singer, married to Red Norvo. Red Norvo was there. And then in the fifth, there were amazing number of jazz shows there. speaker-0: Okay. Use the stage. Okay, I'll get to those in but the th the third face was Jazz. So I mean Duke was there. Yeah. speaker-1: I mean, and everyone again, except three Miles Davis was there, John Coltrane was there. And and at the same time, that's the fifties and the sixties. Nat King Cole was there, Sarah Vaughan was there twice, and when branding, or when they were branding, when they were using my information to brand the person, I wanted a name a famous black woman. And I said, What? speaker-0: For those There. Okay. speaker-1: the green rooms. So they have the green room now. Chose her name. When I asked them why, they said, 'cause we were looking for a black woman. I said, I guess you found one. I said Sarah Vaughn was there three times. There, you know, today randomly speaker-0: Edit James was picked Ella Fitzgerald. speaker-1: And so the Ella's great lounge area. The place is gorgeous, you know, now speaker-0: Room is there. ⁓ It's it's just beautiful. Okay. So speaker-1: was there a and everybody was there. I mean it's I mean there probably were at least twenty concerts okay in the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties. And then the last face is rock and roll. You go Alan Freed, but not just Alan Freed, Nicole, Murray the K. Kaufman, Irving Feld, first rock promoter. He eventually was wringling Barnum Bailey Circus and Feld. speaker-0: So here we Like speaker-1: And he was this complicated, very complicated gay guy. And he was amazing. He had a radio show about Rock before Alan F and he had a show there that was Blockbuster. speaker-0: So they were blockbuster shows. speaker-1: Yeah from nineteen fifty four, and I'm using that day for a reason. Al invented rock and roll in nineteen fifty-five. Okay. He didn't. And then in addition to that, like I said, when vaudeville went out, they they they had, you know, managers, one slick guy. speaker-0: Because any book will tell you ⁓ excuse me. Okay. But he's famous for that. At least. ⁓ W said, Wow, they had a rodeo there they speaker-1: On stage, Tom Mix, famous Tom Mix, was on the Beatles album. Okay. Amos and Amos and Andy had the hottest radio show in the country. Amos and Andy were there on stage for a week while their radio program in the basement in one of the lounges promotions. Radio was hot, man, in the nineteen twenties, you know, voice and radio before. speaker-0: Andy was there, racist Amy. was playing downstairs where they had radio it was Okay, they had Latin music. speaker-1: Don Aspiasu, Aspiazzu, Grinders song, he was this, you know, famous Cuban, world famous. He was there for a week of C Morales. speaker-0: The P Was there? Tito Puente was there. speaker-1: For a week, Mumbo, you know had Mumbo lessons in the basement. I mean, these are extracular things besides what's going on in going. They had magic and puppets. Extracurricular. They had fashion and beauty contests on speaker-0: Correct, you know. Stage? That things like the best spell word. speaker-1: This is hilarious. Contest, spelling contest. Cool, but the paramount said we're gonna have the worst spelled word. So I had a contest. speaker-0: That's Spurred. Inviting people just spell worse than the the worst style phone. What kind what's up, you know? speaker-1: Spelled, you know, ⁓ exotic make up a word. And they have a lot they don't you know, a lot of extra curriculum. Now we get to come back to basketball, if you don't mind, which is my first you know, diet or baseball too hard. I was on the Lower East Side and no to basketball, no equipment. And there was some baseball, but indoor sports, basketball and I I don't know. You know, basketball was the game like St. John's before the pro game took off. speaker-0: Things plus whoops. Yeah. Love in sports, who could play baseball stuff. So I went to Square Garden to see speaker-1: To Madison college teams, not to see the pro teams. Nobody was interested in the Knicks. They were George Miken, a Minneapolis, iconic white ball guy. And Knicks played New York versus George Micen. Because he won. He was 6'10. Nobody had 6'10 players and all of that stuff. And then speaker-0: were losers. You know, Joe from the Lakers was you know You know, if the new would be George, the new Knicks versus It's There the speaker-1: Brooklyn Paramount Managers, once there was no more vaudeville, let's have hoops on the stadium. Well, it's not a regulation size, not ninety-four feet long. It was somewhat truncated, but there were professional leagues. And professional leagues played like ⁓ you know, on a Friday night, addition to two extra thing. And then most famous, how can I say this? Non white. speaker-0: The poops. And it's two movies. So they had this extra speaker-1: Black team in the history of the world, the Harlem Wrens, ⁓ the Harlem Renaissance Ballroom in Harlem, and they were the beat every white team in the world, but at the top world colored champions. And John Wonderboy Isaacs, who was one of the stars, and I interviewed on my radio show, he said his mother got furious with him. speaker-0: Who represented They they get the titled World's C Because when he got the jacket they beat they beat speaker-1: beat the best white college teams in the country and then they got this you know colored he cut out colored his mother was furious and they had a lot of pride they were all inducted were inducted into Madison Square Garden Hall Fair. They played on stage there. Just like another one has a thing about the shock of the new and you know shock art, you know, and all that stuff. Sensational stuff. How about the shock of speaker-0: ⁓ But it's Yeah. What these what? Yeah, yeah. Richard used the critic So, speaker-1: Either this is naivete, because when I told Cedar Walton, so I try to hire for something, hey Cedar, man, did you know that Prez at the Brooklyn Paramount? Cedar said didn't love he said, I took the bus from Detroit to work as an usher to see President Young play. So people knew about things didn't. And then that that became the book. speaker-0: The great jazz piano. you know that Prince played as To quote him, he said. Let's speaker-1: And when I found out that the Brooklyn when you say Brooklyn Dodgers, you have to, you know, so ⁓ you have to speaker-0: You have to worship. I mean are you a A little bit, but I've never lived in New York, so I have no we have we probably have no overlapping loyalties. So the I I this way like a question. So do do you know much? I don't know anything about anything. You can't insult. speaker-1: Sports fan, yeah. No anything I don't mean it to Of summer. Brooklyn was always the loser. It was always second to Manhattan. Self-ish was always second tier to Manhattan. Brooklyn Paramount, ⁓ Manhattan. The New York Paramount was much more beautiful than the Brooklyn Paramount, but wow. The Brooklyn, I mean speaker-0: I it was the fourth decision loser, but the images Okay. They're both okay. Rogers, the boys of summer. Ebbotsfield, of course, was the player. speaker-1: place where Jackie Robinson broke nineteen forty seven. The color barrier, I went to see Jackie in the early fifties, and white racism prevailed ⁓ basically it was only speaker-0: Broke barrier. Whites who went to Ebbets Field. speaker-1: And then when Jackie came in, black African Americans started going to see Jackie Robinson play. And then to move them to Los Angeles, because we didn't want whites sitting next to blacks. Then we want they didn't want that. speaker-0: Yeah. And let's just say the decision was made So that's one l Lou Low and Fish who wrote the book Tricky, Brent Tricky. speaker-1: Leela Branch Rick brought in Jackie in 1947. First black player in 1947. When the Yankees finally hire a black player, Boston probably the most racist city in the world. Not anymore, but ⁓ okay, we'll talk about Boston, but Boston hired Pumpsey Green, black player. Well, the Yankees hired Elston Howard, Hall of Fame player. speaker-0: They were the Boston Red Sox both In the sixties okay. Last black speaker-1: Casey Stangles said, ⁓ they finally got me one and he can't even run. Big lumber Elsenhara was a big lumbering catcher. speaker-0: Great player. Okay. The Brooklyn Dodgers play basketball stage. speaker-1: basketball on stage. It's unbelievable. Don Newcomb, Ralph Branca, Roy Campanella, and they exhibition games. And every side who went for Frank Sinatra, okay, at the New York Paramount, the girls came speaker-0: to see Kill Hodges' legs and sh in the front they would get the Dodge. Which is really So the and the Dodgers, y you know, the the boys of remember speaker-1: Sure. Front row and they were watching the Dutchers and they played four times there. Kind of amazing. summer. But these are guys who played baseball and needed a second job. Campy had a liquor store and when they asked Don Newlynd Paramount in your time off, he says, Are you kidding me? Five ⁓ speaker-0: Como alle. For fifty dollars? Yeah. So what actually spurred the book was I stood in the corner of Flatbush Avenue. speaker-1: The world changes. I ⁓ on the corner and decalb many times and I saw the tour buses come down decalb and take a right and go over the Manhattan Bridge and the speaker-0: Which and the docent will be saying there's speaker-1: Paramount, well it used to be the Paramount and Frank Sinatra played the Paramount. Not making fun of them, but Paramount is a generalized phrase twelve hundred of them. But Frank Sinatra, as I found from my research, he never played the Brooklyn Paramount. So of course people argue, well well I read the Okay, I'm not being snotty or anything like that. He played the New York Paramount, but he didn't play the fine. And then Alan's you know on these tour buses, they would say, ⁓ I'm looking to the right. speaker-0: The raised to Book that Yay! They would say after Fried the Dose. ⁓ to the left is Julie's cheesecake. speaker-1: Junior's the most famous, the best cheesecake in the world, maybe. And then to the right was the Paramount Long Island University owns it, and Alan Fried invented rock and roll there. And I found out that Tommy Jives Smalls with all the people who became rock and roll artists before Freed. Okay, wow. Alan Fried ⁓ Tommy Jives Smalls. speaker-0: Read there. Did rock news shows Fried was Alan Fried was called the Black speaker-1: Alan Freed, when I would say Alan Freed should be called the white Tommy. So that's one of the arguments in the and then this no the question of who built the Brooklyn Paramount, Harold Whitman, the master builder of Brooklyn, and more scandals than the Trump era with this guy, may maybe maybe the same number. And he didn't. So no that was like another discovery. speaker-0: Every book will tell you how Couldn't believe it. Which motivates the book, you know, for things 'cause the book speaker-1: That I don't apologize theories. A lot of my anthropology like the idea The Apache Indians say you lost. Nobody knew the stories. None of the professors. Nobody seemed to care. I didn't care, so I don't fall. The idea of gossip and scandal are important, believe it or not, like concept gossip. And you know, ⁓ my God, after is vaudeville coming back? Or no, it's not. Yes, it is. The newspapers were rife with that. It did come back, then it didn't come back. speaker-0: Okay, the idea of sacred space speaker-1: And scandals. LIU and the Brooklyn Paramount are famous for the most two of the most famous known scandals and the third one that I write about. And discovery of the n of the old scandal the basketball scandal of nineteen fifty one. Remember LIU speaker-0: Wanted to convert speaker-1: Paramount into a basketball. I graduated from the Brooklyn Paramount Orchestra in nineteen sixty three and then sixty four and they turned it into a basketball court. But ever in basketball history, his name was Sherman White, he was nineteen years old. He would have been Michael Jordan, he would have been all those people. He's nineteen years old, the leading scorer in the country. And he and the other guy on the team, and like you racially mixed. Yo, yay, you know. speaker-0: for they gutted it and they turned LAU had the greatest player. What a Black Eye was Rex basketball. speaker-1: Beckmann and they took money to miss shots. And then they were caught and it was a terrible scandal. speaker-0: It ruined Herman White's i i it ruined his life. speaker-1: Life. He wouldn't talk to me. We invited him back for a conference. And then the other scandal was pay off. Well, you know, I'll take the money. And Alan Freed put his name that put his name on songs like Sincerely by the Moon Glow. Sincerely, man, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, this Alan Feed. They took money pay for play music played the show appear. What's his name on? Okay. speaker-1: People who make money. Okay. The third scandal, how LIU got the Brooklyn Paramount, which might speaker-0: My president David Jules the late day. speaker-1: David Joel Steinberg, who hired me and all of this stuff, he was after me before he died. Mike said, Mike, don't write about LIU and the Brooklyn Paramount. I said, I said, I'm putting that chapter in. Comparative method. Well, LIU wants the Brooklyn Paramount. They had more space. And they only got it the Robert Mosley, the famous Robert Mose. speaker-0: We die. Don't put that chapter in Mike. Because the comparative method Well I you didn't Thanks to Moses. Moses, okay, who declared maker slum. speaker-1: Seven and a half eight. They weren't slum, there were fifty-four businesses there. And the LIU speaker-0: Head of the trustees who was his buddy, William Z real estate guy, who got for a few bucks. They threw every got seven speaker-1: with second off another failed ⁓ everybody out and they cut and a half acres and the paramount and that's why the Brooklyn Paramount was taken over. You know, I was happy to write that. You know, and so here we go. Last speaker-0: So that was thing this place is gorgeous today. I won't compare it to any other theater. Stupid. You know, to you know ⁓ how great is you know as Bob Dylan greater than speaker-1: Go compar. ⁓ How great is Bruce Springs? I know, come on. Like Ernest Hemingway said, there's an island and you know, fewer reach the island, and that's the way it is. You know, Sonny Rylands once said there's the great, the near great. And ⁓ you know, they also ran, and that's the way it is. However, great the Brooklyn Paramount is in terms of in nineteen twenty eight they had an art museum with eight million dollars worth of art. That may I say speaker-0: So, To what it look like today. They disappeared. speaker-1: And I've been on that trail and I haven't had much I I I I and that's another story. One it was sold for parts. A very famous organ there now, one of the world famous original organ. And we're waiting to my buddy Joey Amato and why NYPD. Now Cardi and we're speaker-0: Success. I n think I know who took it. There were two organs disappeared. Organs for LIU to give permission. The detective takes charge of the organ who plays with it's speaker-1: The five hundred thousand dollar repair and speaker-0: W when Live Nation built the stage, they for the organ, so they were clearly speaker-1: They have a cutout. And we can't find out why LIU won't give permission to Live Nation, which ha and to s and show a motto with Oregon Society. speaker-0: to J to restore it and it will be played. That's just but it's theater for good reason, also called speaker-1: That's a that's another story. It's a one it was called a wonder. It was all you know, a transplantine in the river. speaker-0: English word. ⁓ across the river. Yeah, bridge across the river. It was a wonder theater. It had fifty one speaker-1: Innovations. I won't go through them. You know, it had something called the Clavelux. And and like a like a like on a like on a loop when it was recorded and stuff like that. And it were fifty-one innovations. And last I guess the last thing I want to say is re speaker-0: You which you could put Then record them. With you know, music when Okay. Read the book if you're interested. Okay. speaker-1: Okay. I explain about Tommy Jives Smalls. My theory is or hypothesis. He's the father of rock and roll, not Alan Freed. I'm not being contentious, but chronological the first rock and roll empowerment before Alan Freed. And then it's a crazy guy Harold, I'm very interested in. He was the master builder. His partner speaker-0: I'll give you a hint. speaker-1: I lived on the Lower East Side. There was a a beautiful complex. I lived in the slums in a tenement while I was twenty. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying it. And I didn't think I was poor and my family had a lot of pride. And you know, when the projects went up, I was like, wow, they have elevators and they're clean. The Egilov Towers on Avenue A fascinated me. We couldn't we didn't have money to move there, but we would have moved from Avenue D ⁓ speaker-0: But there was the It was speaker-1: Angelof was Harold Whitman's business partner. I mean this is just one of the stories I'm I'm leaking. speaker-0: One of the stories Egelov, his daughter, his both daughters speaker-1: daughters became communists. Okay? And one of the daughters, her boyfriend was the guy a pick in ⁓ Leon Trotsky's head in Mexico. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: Eggal very few in Mexico City. Her sister wants to come and visit with her ne who was a double agent and they're having a nice time and it's interesting. speaker-0: New boyfriend? Well, these are discoveries. Okay, I think read a speaker-1: Link the book and find out more. And the last thing I would say is there's a very famous cartoon in the New Yorker, wonderful New Yorker magazine. And it's a little girl next to her mother in Radio City. And the little girl says to her mother in the caption, 1929, Mama, does God live here? And I would say the same thing. If we walk into the Paramount today, please come visit. We'll go to Eric, whatever you want. And in 1920, I don't know. speaker-0: Yes. Take a tour together. You have to say that. We need to elevate God. All right. Bigger than God. Okay. ⁓ speaker-1: Whoever's being in nineteen twenty that place was a blockbuster. Again, New York Paramount was probably nicer, Radio City, maybe. ⁓ you remember the Roxy, Samuel Roxy was a famous people person, and that's the end. speaker-0: The Roxy topped them all. The Roxy. Famous. Amazing. Just a hint of I know there's so much more in the the book, but I'm I it's this is like what Scribe lives to do, which is like help people who've gone deep, deep down rabbit holes and are passionate about things get a book out into the world that maybe says things that other books haven't said or won't say or have reasons not to. And I hope that this is like a an incredible asset to those who are interested in the history of art and the history of New York. And speaker-1: Theaters, music. I mean, I don't I'm not picturing it, but I'm just saying anybody. Theater Society of America, they have a thousand members. And the person said to me, ⁓ man, Mike, tell us when it's coming out and can you get us the discount for ten dollars? And I said, Mike said, Yeah, man, okay, respect. Let's do it. speaker-0: Like Yeah. Are you y you'll find Mike ⁓ handing out copies of his book standing outside the the Brooklyn Paramount Theater every night that the Live Nation's having a show. We'll we'll speaker-1: No, I won't. I'll tell you why. You got a minute? speaker-0: If you go down Flatbush Avenue where the bro speaker-1: Right now, Brooklyn Paramount is reopened. Okay. You'll see string they look like homeless white kids sitting on cardboard. Not exaggeration. O'clock in the morning. speaker-0: You a sort of white kids. Without eleven o'clock. The theater opens at seven. I asked people why speaker-1: And they have tickets. ⁓ I these kids here at eleven in the morning sitting on cardboard looking like homeless white kids in front of the theater at eleven in the morning. Well, first is first of all, they're waiting for the cannabis trucks to show up at three o'clock. Okay. Okay, okay, we'll have a little fun. And then they want to get inside at seven, claim the row. The first jump up and down and scream. And then they're also claiming. speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. Okay. First run or the places where they can close to the bar close to two of the bars. That's why they're there. So I suppose to hear artists that they speaker-1: bars. There were seven bars close. So the friend and that's eleven in the morning waiting for and also artists, you know, they consider artists and that they certainly love. Sellouts, two hundred sellouts so far. speaker-0: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for for taking the time, Michael, Doctor Hitman, and I appreciate you writing this book, sharing it with the world and taking some time to talk about it with me today. Well speaker-1: Trust me, I can't thank you enough. N not just to market the book or anything like that, but just talk about it with you and also now to meet you and again and do something different and all of that. speaker-0: Hopefully we may Yeah, I lo well I look forward to ⁓ you know where the investigation into your your art heist takes you. That sounds like a fun rabbit hole as well.