Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Murder of Elyse Pahler - Satanic Sacrifice

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The Murder of Elyse Pahler - Satanic Sacrifice · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: In the summer of 1995, three teenage boys who had
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: spent months immersed in heavy metal music, violent imagery, and
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: conversations about sadism, eventually convinced themselves that sacrificing a virgin
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: to the devil could make them powerful. The target they
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: chose was a 15-year-old girl, a friend of theirs, believing
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: her blonde hair, blue eyes, and supposed virginity made her
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the perfect sacrifice to Satan. So on July 22, 1999,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the three boys lured her out of her family's California home,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: with the promise of hanging out, partying, and getting high.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Then they led her to a secluded eucalyptus grove, and together,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: they murdered her in cold blood. This is the story
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: of the murder of Elise Pauler. My name's Ben.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked and Grim.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: A true crime podcast.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Warning.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: The following podcast contains graphic content and material intended for
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: a mature audience. Listener discretion is advised.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: What did I do yesterday?
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: What did you do yesterday?
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I bought another box of Halloween candy.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you did.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Shit.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: And I ate several handfuls last night. And my tummy
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: kind of hurts this morning, I'll be honest.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Oh, I wonder why.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Probably because I've drank a lot of coffee. That's my guess. Yeah,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: too much coffee.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Not because you started your day also with mini chocolate bars?
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: No, definitely not.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: It's so awesome to have them in the house. But yeah,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: they're very... tempting and it's like oh i'll just have
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: one but then that leads to how many you know well.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: And the funny thing is too like if you were
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: to say here ben do you want to eat three
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: full-size chocolate bars i'd be like no that's way too
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: many i'll have one but if you're like here ben
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: do you want several handfuls of these little bite-sized ones
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: that equal three chocolate bars like fuck yeah give them.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: To me that is so true right.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: The math doesn't math but it makes it feel fine
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: to do that's brutal yeah huh Yeah, but I do
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: have something else I got to say though.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: It's an exciting day.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: It is a very exciting day today for a certain
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: demographic that is. Today is the start of the NHL
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: season officially. So happy NHL start today to all those
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: hockey fans out there in the world. We finally get
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: to see our teams hit the ice once more.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I'm excited, but I'm not excited.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Same.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Only because our team is... It's going through rebuilding. I'll
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: just say that.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: We're projected to be the bottom of the league.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Are we actually?
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: We are.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, shit.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a rough season.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I thought last year was a rough season, but I'm
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: going to stick through it. It'll pay off eventually.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. You've got to stick through it.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: You've got to make sure that it pays off. And
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: certainly like when you're actually doing something like that, like
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: going over to Patreon too, it definitely pays off. You
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: can go and get exclusive behind the scenes joining us
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: over there like Samantha Lloyd did, Tiffany Brown did, and
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: also Tammy Brown. I'm assuming there's a non-relation there. But
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: they all signed up this week. And shout out to
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: you guys. Appreciate you for signing up.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: That's awesome. Yeah, we do appreciate you.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: We do.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: And in fact, tomorrow we're dropping the exclusive– end of
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: the month episode only over on Patreon too.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Only on Patreon.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Only on Patreon. But not only that, October is of
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: course our big month of the year. We have Halloween
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: week that comes up at the end of the month
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and we have a lot of things that happen over
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: on Patreon in October. So if you're wondering and humming
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: and hawing about maybe you should or shouldn't join up,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you now, October is the month that you
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: should sign up if you want to. No pressure.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's very true. It's like bumping in there
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: in October.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: It certainly is. So just saying. But still, we appreciate
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: it regardless. But if you're ready, we should maybe get
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: on with the story.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It sounds like a bad one, but yeah.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Well, you did say something actually when we were recording
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: the intro for the story. You're like, is this kind
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: of similar to the last episode we did? There are
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: some parallels in that sense. Definitely. However, the story is
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: definitely different. Very different, very drastic. But yeah, if you
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: remember the last episode, the two-parter we did, maybe keep
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: that in mind too, because there are some similar psychological
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: things that occur between the people who committed atrocities.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Okay. Also, very side note, it kind of really grabbed
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: my attention to the Eucalyptus Grove.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Frick. I'm obsessed with Eucalyptus. I would love to go there.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: To a eucalyptus grove?
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming that's like where they just have a shit
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: ton of eucalyptus, right? They're growing it.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's just like a forest of eucalyptus.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: That's so cool. I've never seen wild eucalyptus.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Did you not know it grew in the wild?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure they also grow it though for consumerism too, right?
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they did.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Or they do. Yeah.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, sorry. Sure they do.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I guess I never thought about it.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: But a grove doesn't necessarily mean it's farmed. A grove
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: just means there's a patch of eucalyptus, essentially.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: I never really have thought about it. I love eucalyptus.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: To see eucalyptus growing in the wild would probably just
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: make my life. I'd be all over that shit.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: All right. We've been to a couple tropical places. You
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: may have already seen it. Who knows?
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, man. Okay. New life goal bucket list.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: All right. Nicole needs to see eucalyptus.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Growing in the wild.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: In the wild, of course. But in the meantime, let's
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: get to the actual story if you're ready.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I'm ready.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. Elise Marie Poller was born on April 24th, 1980
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: in Templeton, California to David Poller and Lisanne Poller. She
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: was the oldest of four children. Her sister, Jenny Lee,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: was about a year younger. Her brother, Ryan, was about
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: three years younger. And her youngest sister, Christina, was about
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: eight years younger than her. In 1989, when Elise was
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: around nine years old, the family moved to Arroyo Grande,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: a small city in the South San Luis Obispo County,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: not far from California's central coast in the USA. For
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: at least part of her childhood, Elise was homeschooled by Lisanne.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: But by her teenage years, however, she was attending public
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: school and was a freshman at Arroyo Grande High School.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Accounts of Elise consistently described her as very outgoing. She
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: was curious and very creative. She enjoyed sports, including soccer,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: and some accounts also placed her in tennis and local
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: theater as well. She sang in her church choir. She
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: participated in Bible study and had grown up attending church
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: with her family quite regularly. She also dreamed about acting
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: and even participating in beauty pageants. Now, Elise also had
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: a particular creative side to her. She liked clothing. and
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: often began sewing her own dresses and other clothing that
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: she'd wear to school. She was also described as having
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: a flair for the dramatic, something that fit naturally with
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: her interest in theater and acting. At school, she had
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: a small circle of close friends, and their interests weren't
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: exactly anything different from those of other teenage girls. You know,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: they had things like school, boys, gossip, movies, and celebrities
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: often occupied their conversations. Apparently, Elise and her friends had
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: even recently become particularly interested in Tom Cruise after seeing
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: the movie Interview with a Vampire, which I have to
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: say is a great movie, but I digress. Now, Lisanne
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: described her daughter as a gentle girl who expressed an
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: appreciation for beautiful and peaceful things throughout her creativity. She
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: also described her as someone who encouraged her friends, listened
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: when they were struggling, and tried to reassure them that
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: things would get better. And those descriptions are very important
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: for this story, because by 15, Elise was also going
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: through a more difficult and rebellious period in her life,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: and the two sides of her life were coexisting at
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: that same time. Now, as Elise entered her teenage years,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: she became increasingly independent and began pushing against the boundaries
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: her parents were setting for her. She began sometimes sneaking
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: out of the house to go see friends or attend
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: parties and even go to concerts. She also began experimenting
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: with marijuana and alcohol. Now, while the exact drug use
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: habits that she formed are unknown, there are some reports
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: that she allegedly even progressed to drugs such as methamphetamines
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: or LSD, though I could certainly find no indication that
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: those were true. Whether she did progress like that or not, though,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: it doesn't fully matter, because regardless, eventually her substance began
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: causing problems at school. In one instance, Elise received a
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: five-day suspension after a teacher caught her smoking marijuana during
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: the school day, and she appeared intoxicated. After this, her parents,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Dave and Lisanne, had become concerned enough about their daughter's
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: drinking and marijuana use that they sought professional help. So,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Elise was enrolled in a substance abuse treatment program at
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: the Mariposa County Recovery Center. It was during this period
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: that Elise became acquainted with Jacob Delishmet, and she met
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: him while attending that recovery program. The two also apparently
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: attended the same high school, giving them another point of
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: overlapping outside of the program itself. And through the widening
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: social circle with Jacob, Elise also came into meeting Joseph
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Fiorella and Royce Casey. The three boys already knew one
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: another and spent a lot of time together. They were
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: smoking weed and using other drugs and sharing an interest
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: in heavy metal music. Elise's degree of familiarity with each
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: of them varied a fair bit, but what's important is
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: that they were all friends to at least some degree,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: and they weren't just three unknown boys who appeared in
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: her life one night. Now, by the summer of 1995,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Elise was 15 years old. She was a church-going teenager
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: who liked sports, theater, sewing, wanted to become an actress,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: enjoyed being around friends, and was simultaneously testing boundaries with alcohol, marijuana,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: and nights out away from home. And these three boys
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: were now overlapping with her social circle. Royce and Jacob
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: had actually known one another since childhood, meeting initially in
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the fifth grade. and reconnecting again around February of 1995,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: when Jacob was part of the drug-using, anti-social crowd Royce
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: desperately wanted to fit into. By March, the two had
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: discovered they shared an interest in heavy metal music. In particular,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: they had a lot of interest in discussing this metal music,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: with a band that stood at the center of it all,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: an infamous band named Slayer. The boys actually even began
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: playing music together in a band that they named Hatred,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: And for Royce, the attraction to the music went beyond
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: simply liking how it sounded. He later described feeling an
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: emotional and physical rush while listening to Slayer, saying the
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: music made him feel very powerful. He was particularly drawn
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: to their songs and imagery involving murder, death, Satanism, and violence,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: themes that increasingly appeared to the anger and darker interests
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: he was already developing. And so then, rather than simply
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: listening to the music, Royce began incorporating some of those
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: themes into the identity he was building for himself. Now,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: by March 1995, the conversations that the two boys were
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: having had become a lot more darker. According to Royce,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Jacob began telling him about discussions he had been having
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: with Joseph about devil worship and even human sacrifice. And
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Joseph's interests extended into subjects involving the Prince of Evil
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and sorcery and black magic. Royce even admitted himself later
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: that he had become interested in these sort of things too.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Now those conversations eventually became centered on a real person.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And that person would be Elise. Now Royce later said
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: that Jacob told him Joseph had developed an obsession with Elise.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: The boys discussed the concept of sacrificing a virgin to Satan,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: something they connected with the violent and satanic imagery they
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: were consuming through their music. And allegedly, they even looked
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: at Elisa's blonde hair, blue eyes, and presumed virginity as
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: their reason that she was considered a particularly desirable sacrifice
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: to him. Now, the stated reasoning was bizarre enough, but
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: it came increasingly serious from there. They discussed sacrificing someone
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: they viewed as innocent or pure, that they saw it
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: was an extreme act against God, one that could earn
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: them a favor, or even power from the devil. The
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: boys allegedly even believe that this sacrifice could make them
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: better musicians for their band, Hatred, and they could become successful.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, that is just... The fact that you can logically
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: think that in your brain is messed up.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: It really is. It's a sick idea. I mean, it
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: started out with fantasy, but it was like, It got
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: to the point where it was no longer just casual
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: conversations either because these conversations grew and grew and they
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: built off of it. And it's funny because– I mean
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: it's not funny but the parallel between something like that
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: and the movie Tenacious D and The Pick of Destiny.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: If you know Jack Black at all and his band
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Tenacious D, they have a movie where they get a pick.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: It's called The Pick of Destiny. It's formed from the
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: devil's tooth and so they get the devil's power to
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: be– To be incredible musicians, or at least that's what
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: they're seeking throughout the movie. And that's essentially what these
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: guys are doing is trying to get Satan's power to
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: become better musicians.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Why not just practice? Practice and don't deal with the devil.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: That would probably be the smarter solution. Yes.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Probably.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: But I do have a question because you had said
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: at one point that I think it was Jacob had
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: an obsession with her.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Joseph has an obsession with her.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: So Jacob told Royce that Joseph has the obsession. You're
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: getting into like teen- drama here a little bit.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Joseph. Yeah.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: It's like a he said, she said, but Joseph is
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: the one with the obsession. Allegedly.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: I guess what I'm just confused or want to know
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: is like, did he have an obsession with her kind
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: of as a love interest or just as this whole
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: sacrifice type of thing?
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: We don't particularly know. As far as I'm aware, it's
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: more of a Obsession over her potentially being this sacrifice.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Maybe there was an underlying portion to that as well,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: but it was never really discussed in the story as
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: far as I could find. It was more her blonde hair,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: her blue eyes, presumed virginity, and we could sacrifice her
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: to the devil and get these powers.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Well, and I suppose too, if there was a love interest,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: it wouldn't necessarily make sense because he wouldn't want her
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: to die.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, possibly. I mean, people do some weird shit, especially
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: when they murder.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I guess. I guess so, yeah.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: But I do think it's actually rather important that you
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: keep that thought in mind for the rest of the story.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Because even though we don't actually know, it does potentially
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: play a factor.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: So I'll just say that. Now, Royce eventually estimated that
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: beginning in May of 1995, he participated in approximately 24
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: different discussions about killing another person. And those conversations occurred
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: roughly two or three times each week over the next
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: two months. And of course, Elise was often the center
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: of that. These conversations and the topics grew and grew
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: in intensity. They discussed knives, stabbing, torture, rape, necrophilia, and
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: even cannibalism as well. And again, Elise was a part
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: of many of those conversations. Now, before Royce himself became
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: directly involved in any plan concerning Elise, Jacob Joseph and
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: another teenager named Travis Williams had already gone a step farther.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: These three boys arranged to spend time with Elise under
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: the pretense of smoking weed or marijuana, and they walked
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: along a road leading towards Elise's home. Travis, at that moment,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: deliberately pretended to lose his balance and tumbled down an
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: embankment beside the road. He acted as though he was
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: injured down there, and Elise went down to help him.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: According to Jacob, Joseph then pushed Elise farther over the
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: embankment and threw a hunting knife down towards Travis while
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: he was down there with her. The entire situation had
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: been planned out and arranged beforehand. Travis was supposed to
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: use the knife and stab and kill Elise, making her
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: the virgin sacrifice. But when the moment came, Travis couldn't
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: do it. Now facing Elise afterwards, they were Kind of
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: in a situation. She was upset. She was pushed down
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: the bank. A knife was tossed in the direction of her.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: And the boys passed the incident off as, I mean,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: it was just a joke. And remarkably, she believed them.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: After all, they were supposed to be her friends.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Well, why would you believe otherwise, really? It's pretty messed up,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: but teenage boys are interesting creatures.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Especially these ones.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Now, she clearly didn't understand what had just happened or
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: almost happened there. It was a genuine attempt to kill her.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: So she didn't report this encounter to police because she
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: had no idea that this is exactly what it was actually. Now,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Royce later described her as trusting and said she had
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: not been immersed in the violent thinking that had consumed
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: the boys. But for Jacob and Joseph, however, the failure
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: hadn't ended the idea. Now, Jacob eventually told Royce what
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: had happened here, including the role Travis had been expected
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to play that day. But instead of recoiling or questioning
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: this whole thing, and if they were even sane at all,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Royce continued participating in the conversations too. And through May, June,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: and into July of 1995, more discussions about murder continued.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Now at this point, what had only existed as violent
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: talk and fantasy had now crossed a very important line.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: An intended victim had been chosen, A knife had even
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: been brought along to an actual attempt that had already
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: been made. So this brings us to Saturday, July 22, 1995.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: It began without anything to distinguish it from any other
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: ordinary summer weekend, especially for 15-year-old Elise. That evening, she
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: was at home in Arroyo Grande with her family, watching
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: a movie. And at some point during that evening, Elise
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: received a telephone call and took it privately. Several later
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: accounts placed the call at around 9 to 9.15pm. Then
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: when she returned from the call, she told her family
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: that she was getting tired and she was going to
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: go to bed instead of finishing the movie. So she
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: said goodnight, told them she loved them before heading to
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: her room. However, she wasn't actually planning to go to sleep. Instead,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: she arranged pillows beneath the covers of her bed and
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: made it appear as though she was sleeping there. Now,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Elise had snuck out before, and her bedroom, well, for
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: her luck, it had French doors providing direct access outside,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: allowing her to leave without walking through the rest of
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: the house. So it was rather easy access for a
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: teenager to go sneak out, which many teenagers would only
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: wish for. She left in casual clothing, sweatpants and a sweatshirt,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: with the expectation she was going to go spend some
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: time smoking weed with her friends because the call Elise
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: had received was from Jacob and Joseph. Elsewhere that evening,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: 17-year-old Royce was driving around with his friend, Kristen Chris McKenzie,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Chris being the nickname. Royce later recalled that at about
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: 6 p.m., they had been home with nothing in particular
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: to do that Saturday night. So he eventually went out
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: with Chris and the two drove around town before stopping
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: at the Mesa View Market in Nipomo, an uncorporated community
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: immediately south of Arroyo Grande. And as they pulled up
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: to this market, Royce noticed Jacob and Joseph standing at
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: the payphone. Royce stopped and spoke with them. Jacob and
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Joseph told him they had just been talking with Elise
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: on the telephone, and they invited her to sneak out
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: of her house and meet up so they could go
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: get high together. And Elise agreed. She was going to
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: meet them down the street from her home. And then
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Jacob and Joseph invited Royce to come with them. In fact,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: they told him that, quote, he would not want to
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: miss out. And Royce understood exactly what they meant in
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: that moment. The conversations about killing Elise had been going
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: on for approximately two months at this point. Royce already
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: knew about the previous attempt involved with Travis. In fact,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: earlier that evening, Jacob and Joseph told him they planned
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: on using a knife on Elise, and that had been
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: part of the plan all along. But despite everything that
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: had been discussed, Royce would later insist that he still
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: didn't entirely believe that they were going to follow through
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: with it. As he put it, quote, I really didn't
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: sort of think they would really do it, end quote.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: But whatever the truth was, whether he believed it or not,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: that's besides the point. Because he knew what they were proposing.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: He left Chris behind and left walking on foot with
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: them So from there, Jacob, Joseph, and Royce walked to
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: meet Elise near her home. When they reached her, the
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: boys didn't tell her anything about the discussion that they
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: had earlier. They told Elise that they were simply going
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: to go somewhere to party, which fit in with what
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: she had been offered over the telephone, a chance to
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: get out of the house, smoke some marijuana, and spend
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: some time with people she knew. The four teenagers then
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: began walking away from Elise's neighborhood and towards an isolated
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: area in the Pomo Mesa. along the Chasmeol Lane, where
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: the eucalyptus trees and vegetation provided considerable cover. The location
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: was close enough to Elise's home that the group could
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: reach it on foot easily. And once they reached the spot,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: the four sat down together. For the next 15 to
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: 20 minutes, they talked. They passed some weed around, and
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Elise smoked with her friends. Then after approximately 15 or
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: 20 minutes... Jacob stood up, and he acted like he
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: needed to go find a tree to relieve himself. As
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Elise remained seated on the ground with the others, Jacob
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: moved away just enough to maintain the appearance that he
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: was going to go to the washroom. And then he
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: began taking off his belt. Royce watched him as he
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: did it. Jacob held his belt in his hands and
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: started walking back towards Elise from behind. He crossed his
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: arms in front of him as he approached, positioning the
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: belt between his hands. Elise was still sitting on the ground,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: and Jacob stepped up behind her. Then he raised his
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: crossed arms over Elise's head and dropped the belt that
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: was now in a loop around her neck, and he
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: pulled tight as he uncrossed his arms, beginning to strangle her.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Royce then grabbed Elise's hands and held them down because
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: he didn't want Elise clawing at any of them to
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: hurt them or get their skin underneath her fingernails for
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: any sort of evidence. Now as Jacob held the belt
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: around her neck, Joseph produced a large fixed blade hunting knife.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: He crouched beside Elise and began stabbing her violently in
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: the neck. Royce estimated that Joseph stabbed Elise four, five,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: or even six times in the front of her neck,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: followed by another one or two wounds to the side
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: of her neck, all while she's being strangled from behind.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: According to Royce's account, Elise didn't speak during the first
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: part of the attack. In fact, From what I believe,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I don't think she could have, even if she wanted to.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Everything happened so quick and Jacob maintained the strangulation. Royce
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: was then left to restrain her hands and Joseph was
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: driving the knife now in her neck. But by the
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: time Joseph stopped, Elise had fallen face down onto the
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: ground and Joseph handed the hunting knife to Jacob. Jacob
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: took the knife and stabbed Elise four or five times,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: directing the knife into her back and into her neck.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Royce had released her by then and was now standing nearby, watching,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: and he described the strangulation and stabbing as occurring, quote,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: fairly quick. Then Jacob held the knife out for Royce,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: and now both he and Joseph urged him to take it.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Royce initially refused, saying, quote, I can't do it. And
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: he later remembered standing there for what seemed like at
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: least a minute, before he finally reached out his hand
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: and took the knife, changing his mind. Grasping it tightly
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: in his hands, he raised the knife up above his
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: head and began stabbing Elise in the back. His accounts
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: of the exact number varied slightly. During one recounting, he
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: remembered stabbing her two or three times, and another time
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: he accepted that he had stabbed her four in total.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: He couldn't remember precisely where on her back they had
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: landed either. But while it was all going on, Elise
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: wasn't dead. She wasn't even unconscious. She was still alive,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: lying face down on the ground, and she began to moan.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Royce even said she began calling out for her mother
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: and praying to Jesus during the attack. Royce reacted to
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: the sounds of her moaning and talking, and he did
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: so by bringing his foot down and stomping onto the
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: back of Elise's neck. He later described what he did as, quote,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: one quick stomp, end quote. explaining that he'd done it
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: to make her go quiet. After she did go quiet,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: the three boys then turned their attention to what they
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: were going to do with her body. Royce and Jacob
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: dragged her approximately 15 to 20 feet from the location
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: of the attack into an area containing several fallen trees.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: They positioned her between the trees where the surrounding vegetation
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: provided enough cover to hide her body.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: That is ridiculous. ridiculously hard to listen to it's savage
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: holy shit yep here i was thinking too i was
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: like by the time they got to royce i was
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: like like she has to be dead already and she
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: freaking wasn't.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: She wasn't she was calling to her mom and she
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: was praying.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Oh that just like breaks my freaking heart yeah like
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: this i just uh i can't comprehend what the hell
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: is happening.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Here well you know how i told you that um
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: It's important to consider whether there was some romantic feelings
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: involved at all.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I told you to keep it in mind for a
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: very specific reason, and I'll tell you why right now.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Because before they concealed her body amongst those fallen trees,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Jacob began pulling down Elise's pants. This wasn't an idea
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that had suddenly come to him in the moment. Royce
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: admitted that before bringing Elise there that night, the boys
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: had discussed everything. raping her after she was already dead.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: In fact, they also discussed cutting her body into pieces,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: keeping them in the freezer and eventually eating them, possibly
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: even cooking pieces of her on a barbecue.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Holy frick. I didn't think it could get any fricking worse. Yeah.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: What the absolute shit.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: So Elise was lying in front of them. Jacob began
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: pulling her pants down, but Royce told them, quote, Hey,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: let's get out of here. End quote. Jacob reportedly stopped,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: and according to the boys, no further sexual act occurred
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: at the scene, and Elise's clothing was put back into place. Now,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: that account is very important for this story, because later
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: allegations concerning post-mortem sexual assault and rape would become far
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: more complicated. Some accounts allege that sexual acts did occur
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: at some point, but we'll get into that later. Now
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: from here they covered Elise with leaves and pieces of bark,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: leaving her face down between the fallen trees, and according
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: to Royce, fully clothed still. Then Jacob, Joseph, and Royce
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: walked away. As they headed back towards Joseph's home, they
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: talked about what they had done. They glorified the killings
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: amongst themselves. They celebrated. They hid when vehicles passed. along
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: the road, apparently concerned about being seen in the area.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: And eventually, Jacob's father actually happened upon the boys and
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: gave them a ride home, unaware of what they had
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: just done. Now the next morning on Sunday, July 23rd, 1995...
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: the Pollard family realized that Elise wasn't in her bedroom.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Her parents found the pillows under the blankets. They found
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: that she hadn't packed anything. They found her backpack, clothing, toothbrush,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: and other personal belongings all at home. There was no
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: indication that anyone had broken into the house, and Elise
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: had left no message explaining where she'd gone. Even if
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: they came to the realization that she snuck out that night,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: the fact that she still wasn't home was a serious issue.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: So David reported his 15-year-old daughter missing on July 23rd.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: It didn't take long for missing person flyers bearing Elise's
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: photograph to appear around Arroyo Grande. The possibility that followed
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: Elise's disappearance through the investigation was that she was a runaway.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: She had used marijuana and alcohol, she had been disciplined
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: at school, and she had snuck out of the house before.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: So that was what they assumed. But David and Lisanne didn't.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: didn't believe their daughter would simply up and abandon her
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: family and home like that. In the early search, they
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: quickly began contacting people who might have known where she was,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: including teenagers within Elise's social circle. And that search eventually
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: brought them into contact with Royce, Joseph, and Jacob. Now
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: David and Lisanne reportedly questioned the boys about Elise, but
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the three gave them nothing. They reportedly agreed with the
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: runaway theory, suggesting Elise probably left voluntarily. Of course, the
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: boys knew otherwise. They saw Elise's missing person posters all
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: around town. At school, they saw them, and they heard
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: students and even teachers talking about the missing girl. Royce's
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: best friend Dennis once asked whether he had seen the
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: posters featuring the blonde teenager who disappeared from a royal ground.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: But Royce pretended that he hadn't even noticed them, and
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: he even acted like he didn't even know who Elise was.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: But away from everyone else... All three boys reacted very different.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: The boys continued meeting to play the music for their band, Hatred,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: and according to Royce, the murder became something that they
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: celebrated together. They repeatedly talked through what they had done,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: describing the adrenaline, the anger, and hatred that they had
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: directed at Elise. On Saturday nights, they would get drunk
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: or get high together and refer to their gatherings as
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: the Hatred Reunions. They also returned to the satanic ideas
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: they had discussed before Elise disappeared, about being rewarded by
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: the devil and describing Elise as the perfect sacrifice. They
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: spoke about her as if she were a trophy they
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: had given to Satan. Meanwhile, her family was out there
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: trying to find her, looking for her. Tips and supposed
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: sightings soon began coming in. Most went nowhere. And one
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: account described a reported sighting of Elise at Pismo Beach,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: where someone believed they saw her with short hair and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: an older man. Another eventually even placed her much farther away,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: supposedly traveling with a carnival through Colorado. And by Christmas
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Day of 1995, the Colorado story had given David and
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Lisanne something specific to hold on to. See, this tip
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: suggested that if Elise really was traveling with the carnival,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: she might finally contact her family at Christmas.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, but that's months later, hey? Because didn't she get
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: killed in July?
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: It was in the summer, yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, geez, okay.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: But on this Christmas day, they waited by the phone
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: to see if it was going to ring with bated breath.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: But of course, it didn't. Elise's grandmother, Elise Walter, also
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: tried reaching out to her publicly and pleaded with Elise
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: to make contact. assuring her that she was loved. She'd come,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: she can come stay with her if she wanted. The
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: family wasn't even demanding explanations. They just wanted to know
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: that she was safe. And obviously those weeks turned into months.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: For approximately the first three months, Royce continued trying to
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: embrace the identity he had built with Jacob and Joseph.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: But by the end of October, he said the missing
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: posters and continuing searches have become increasingly difficult for him
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: to ignore. He watched Elise's parents and community searches for
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: someone that he knew they wouldn't find. All while he
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: continued going to school, seeing friends, and spending time with
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: his own family. Over the months, Royce's guilt grew and grew.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: There were countless opportunities where he could have told someone.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: He could have told his parents. He could have approached
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: a teacher. But instead, he remained silent because he was
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: frightened what would happen if he confessed. And by January
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: of 1996, Royce had befriended a pastor and was becoming
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: increasingly involved in Christianity. His relationship with Jacob and Joseph, well,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: it was also changing. Royce soon became concerned by discussions
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: within the group, suggesting that Elise might not be their
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: only victim, at least not for long anyways. He feared
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: another person could be killed and even began worrying that
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: if He distanced himself from the others, as he was doing.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: He could be the other target himself, because of what
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: he knew. But still, he said nothing. January passed, and
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: so did February. Nearly eight months had now gone by
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: since Elise walked out of her home and seemingly vanished.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: There'd been posters, rumors, distant sightings, and even false hope.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: But nothing that told David and Lisanne anything. of where
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: their daughter was. Then on March 14th, 1996, Royce couldn't
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: take it any longer. He finally broke his silence. It
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: was through a friend named Glenn Peters that he made
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: contact with attorney Jay Johnson. Royce told him he had
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: information about a homicide involving a missing person, and that
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: missing person was Elise Poller. In fact, he told him
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: he was there when she was killed.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Well, he's actually the one that killed her in the end, really.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Well, they all stabbed her and had a hand in it, literally.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. They all contributed. But he was the one
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: I feel like, I mean, she probably would have died anyway,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: but he was the one at the end that stopped
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: her from speaking or ended it completely, I suppose.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Yes. He was the one who stomped on the back
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: of her neck.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: And you're also telling me here that after they did
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: all this, their lives didn't like miraculously just get fucking better.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: No, Satan didn't give them powers to make their music
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: any better.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Their band didn't get famous and they weren't making millions
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: and shit.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: No, definitely not. So they're just pieces of shit for
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: no reason.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: No kidding.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, Roy subsequently was interviewed by chief investigator, Douglas
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Odom at this point, after he said he had information
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: and he was there. Um, Chief Douglas was part of
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: the San Luis Obispo County District Attorney's Office. And during
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: that interview, Royce told Investigator Odom that Elise hadn't run away.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: She'd been murdered. He identified Jacob DeLashmut and Joseph Fiorella
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: as the other two people involved. And he began describing
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: the conversations about devil worship, human sacrifice, and choosing and
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: killing Elise. He told him, about the early attempt involving Travis,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: explaining that Travis had been expected to stab Elise, but
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: didn't go through with it. Then Royce described the events
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: of July 22nd, meeting Jacob and Joseph, walking with Elise
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: and smoking weed, then Jacob strangling her with his belt,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: and Joseph producing a hunting knife, while all three participated
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: in the attack. But most importantly, Royce knew where Elise was.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: He could prove what he knew. He took investigators to
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: the area where the boys had left her, in a
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: grove of eucalyptus trees, in Nipomo Mesa, only about a
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: quarter mile from her home. And there, beneath the vegetation
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: and debris, investigators found her remains. After nearly eight months outdoors,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Elise's body was badly decomposed, with some accounts even describing
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: portions of her remains as mummified. Dental records were used
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: to establish her identity, and accounts of the identification also
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: described a red bracelet found with the remains that was
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: recognized by her family. This was, in fact, Elise. An
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: autopsy could now provide investigators with physical evidence of what
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: had happened. And it looked exactly like as Roy said.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: The forensic examination documented at least 12 stab wounds. Wounds
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: were found on Elise's chest, back, and neck consistent with
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Royce's description of the attack. And the formal record summarized
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: her cause of death as stab wounds to the chest
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: while also noting the stab wounds to her back and neck.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: But notably, it also established an especially disturbing fact. None
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: of the individual stab wounds was immediately fatal, meaning Elise
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: had died from the cumulative blood loss. The forensic evidence indicated.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: that she remained alive as she bled from her wounds,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: although they were unable to determine for exactly how long
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: she survived. In fact, the condition of her remains created
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: several limits on what investigators could determine. For example, Royce
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: had already admitted that before the murder, he, Jacob, and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Joseph had had discussed raping Elise after her death. He
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: also said they talked about cutting away pieces of her body,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: storing them in a freezer, and eventually cooking and eating them.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: If you recall, according to Royce, Jacob began pulling down
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Elise's pants after the murder, but Royce told him, hey,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: let's just get out of here, and maintained that no
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: sexual act followed. According to his account, they covered Elise
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: with the leaves and bark, and left her face down
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: fully clothed. There were, however, allegations that would come out
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: later that more had occurred. Joseph, in fact, reportedly made
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: statements to people close to him suggesting sexual contact with
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Elise's body. And reportedly, he even once told his mother
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: that he had sex with a dead body, although the
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: statement was dismissed as a sick joke at the time,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: because how could anyone be serious about that? Another account
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: alleged that a friend later told investigators Joseph had bragged
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: about returning to Elisa's body for sexual purposes.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Okay. You know, when you were talking about that earlier,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: I had that thought that that might have happened.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Which I really think is beyond fucked.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: It's so sick.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: There's no other word for it. Yeah. But they don't
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: know for sure that that did happen?
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, they couldn't conclusively establish it through physical evidence. I mean,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: they're exposed outdoors for nearly eight months before they found her, right?
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: So investigators were unable to determine whether she had been
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: sexually assaulted at all. They could not prove it. The evidence, therefore,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: established that postmortem sexual activity had been discussed before murder,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: while conflicting statements left the question of whether the boys
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: actually carried out with it opened. And that's it.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: You know, and it's just so heartbreaking, too, that she
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: was so close to home that whole time.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Quarter mile from home.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: That her family was searching for her. Right.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: That sucks so bad. Now, Royce's statements also exposed just
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: how long the murder had been contemplated. Investigators learned that
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Elise's death hadn't been, you know, some sudden argument or
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: in the heat of the moment situation in that grove.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: They had been discussing these killings of a virgin repeatedly. Plus,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: there was even an earlier attempt involving this Travis Williams boy.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And there was weeks of conversations connecting Elise to the
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: idea of the sacrifice. There was also evidence of what
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: had been going on through Royce's mind during the months
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: after the murder, too. See, Royce had been keeping a
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: school journal. And rather than distancing himself from what he
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: had done, some of those entries continued to embrace the
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: idea of Satan. Murder. and sacrifice, that he and the
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: others had discussed, of course, before she died. One entry,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: written roughly three months after the murder, described Royce as
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: being allied with, quote, darkened souls, and went on to
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: discuss murder, human sacrifice, and sexual acts with a corpse.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: All in all, with Royce's confession and the recovery of
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Elise's remains, authorities moved in against Jacob and Joseph as
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: well and arrested them too. The three teenagers were were
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: then charged with murder, along with the allegations connected to
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: the planning of Lisa's death and the events surrounding it.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors also pursued allegations involving torture and the sexual assault
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: rape charges, but the latter presented the particular problems we
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: already mentioned. Investigators had statements that sexual activity with her
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: remains had been discussed and the allegations that it had occurred,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: but the physical evidence could not conclusively establish whether necrophilia
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: had actually taken place. Now, for the motive of it all,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: that was rather complicated as well. Investigators had Royce's account
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: of repeated conversations about sadism, black magic, and human sacrifice.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: They knew Elise had been discussed as a virgin sacrifice
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: and the boys had spoken about the murder in connection
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: with their band, Hatred, the band that contained violent and
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: satanic imagery that closely resembled subjects the boys had been discussing.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: And Royce even later acknowledged that the music had helped
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: give him a language and identity through which he expressed
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: his anger. The three boys even celebrated after killing her
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: and discussed the rewards they would get from the devil,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: even their music abilities. It was a muddled mess of reasonings,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: and even among the defendants, explanations for the murder would
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: change considerably over time. Now, ultimately, the case never got
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: a full trial, though. In 1997, all three entered, no contest, please,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: to first-degree murder. Royce and Jacobs were each sentenced to
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: 25 years to life in prison, and Joseph received 26
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: years to life, including an additional year connected to his
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: use of a deadly weapon. For Elise's family, the pleas
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: ended the criminal proceedings quickly, like ripping off a band-aid,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: but it did so without changing what they had already endured.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Elise's dad, David, later described the eight months of uncertainty
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: when she was missing as a nightmare. Followed by the
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: knowledge that his daughter had been violently murdered, he wrote
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: that the prison sentence did little to ease that reality. Quote,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: the pain of losing my daughter and knowing she suffered
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: will never leave me. End quote. Lisanne, Elise's mother, described
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: grief in similar physical terms, saying that losing Elise felt
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: as though a piece of her heart had been wrenched away,
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: leaving pain as severe as anything physical she could imagine. Now,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: the legal fallout didn't end with the three prison sentences, though.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Dave and Lisanne believed the music that Royce, Jacob, and
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: Joseph had consumed deserved greater scrutiny, particularly the band Slayer itself.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: And in fact, they even brought legal action against the band,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: the producer Rick Rubin, and companies involved in producing and
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: distributing its music. The Pollers argued that the violent songs
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: had been marketed to Vulnerable young listeners, and that particular
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: lyrics had contributed to the ideas surrounding Elise's murder, which
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: I have to say, personally, I am a fan of
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: metal music. I have listened to Slayer myself plenty of times,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: even at a young age, such as these boys. I've
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: had friends who've listened to bands like this as well.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: We were never impacted by the music in a way
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: where we were ever going to commit murder or even
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: think about it or talk about it or joke about it.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: In fact, even by the time Elise was murdered in 1995,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: concerns about explicit content in music were hardly a new thing.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: The recording industry had actually already been using voluntary warning
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: labels for roughly a decade at that point. Beginning in
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: 1985 and into the 1990s, they introduced the standardized black
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: and white parental advisory explicit lyrics label that most of
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: us still recognize today. Those warnings were specifically intended to
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: alert parents and consumers to recordings containing explicit material involved
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: with subjects like sex, violence, or substance use. There weren't
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: legally enforced age restrictions, though. A teenager could still go
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: out and purchase an album carrying that warning. But the
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: industry had already taken steps to make parents aware that
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: some music contained material they might consider inappropriate for young listeners.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: See, I'm not a metal fan at all.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: I'm slowly converting you.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: I don't really know about that.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: A little bit. A little bit.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: But I do not really agree with them putting this
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: on the band because the only people I feel like
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: they should really be blaming is those three freaking monster boys.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, definitely. But I don't think the parents were putting
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: it on the band or the producer, Rick Rubin, or
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: the industry. None of it. I think it's a matter
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: of they were influenced by the music. Same sort of
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: thing we were talking about last time with fantasy role-playing
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: games on the table. People are capable of doing this
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: on their own. It's simply the thing in front of them,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: whether it's the tabletop games or the music they listen to,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: that kind of channels that.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, but it also takes a special, I don't know
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: if that's the right word, individual to be persuaded to 100%.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: And that's exactly the argument.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: They're not going to do it with the music. If
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: the music got them to do it, it's not the
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: music's fault. They were going to do it or were
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: capable regardless. Now, by 1995, the argument over whether violent
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: or explicit music could negatively influence young people had already
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: been happening in the public for years. But a warning
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: about violent content is also very different from claiming that
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: the music itself can cause someone to commit violence. See,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: I've already got this written out. Millions of people listen
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: to the same bands. They've heard the same lyrics. Slayer
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: is not a small band at all. It's one of
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: the most popular metal bands of all time. And yet,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: how many people have ever committed murder after listening to
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: their music? Right. Exactly.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I would almost too argue that it could be
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: like the drugs or the alcohol too. Oh, for sure.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: Person consuming stuff like that. Like, what is that going
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: to be doing to your mind?
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Definitely. So now you have to question, okay, the parents
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: of these boys, they were allowing them to listen to
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: this music. They were not looking after their kids. I mean,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: they were in some sense, because at least one of
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: them outside of a lease was already going to a
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: rehab facility.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: But how much were they monitoring them if they were
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: still having access to this sort of thing after the
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: fact and allowing them to listen to this music? And
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: they were talking about this sort of stuff for months.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: In fact, one of their mothers heard their son allegedly
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: joke about having sex with a dead body and she
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: brushes it off as a joke.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Good God. Yeah. I don't even know how I'd be
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: able to go on with life after I heard something
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: like that come out of like my child's mouth. Right.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: So what sort of intervention are these parents of these
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: boys- going through, if at all.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. See, I was going to say that earlier. Like
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: if anything, I very much believe like it's these boys
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: that did this bad act, but I would, I would
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: go and put blame. If I needed to put blame
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: on someone else, it would be the parents over like
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: the band.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: I agree. But I still, I don't believe it's the
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: parent's fault either. I believe the parents had some negligence
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: in it.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: Maybe.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: We don't know. Yeah. Who knows exactly?
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: But it is 110% the boys who are at fault.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: I have no doubt in my mind about that.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: They were at an age where they knew they were
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: doing something very bad.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: They did. Now, years afterwards, Jacob actually acknowledged that Slayer's
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: music had been destructive. See, he's actually, he's got something here.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: He actually rejected the idea about it explaining why Elise died.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: He instead pointed directly to Joseph saying, quote, The music
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: is destructive. That's not why Elise was murdered. She was
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: murdered because Joe was obsessed with her and obsessed with
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: killing her. End quote. So even he is saying it's
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: not the music who did it.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Okay. It was one guy that was obsessed and kind
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: of like persuaded everyone to get in on this.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe not persuade even because the others could be following,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: but he certainly had persuasion. whether intending to or not. Now,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Joseph also distanced himself from the satanic sacrifice explanation. During
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: an interview with Entertainment Weekly, he suggested people were searching
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: for a simple explanation for an almost incomprehensible crime. Quote,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: it was a small town and a big murder. They
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: needed to know why it happened. End quote. And so
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: it's no surprise to say that the Pollard's lawsuit against
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: the band was ultimately unsuccessful. In 2001, Judge Jeffrey Burke
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: rejected the attempt to hold Slayer legally responsible. Although Judge
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Burke characterized the band's lyrics as, quote, repulsive and profane,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: he concluded that they did not instruct listeners to commit
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: the acts inflicted upon Elise. A related argument that the
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: music constituted harmful material improperly marketed to minors was also rejected,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: with the court finding the material protected under the First Amendment.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: That left the responsibility for Elise's murder where the criminal
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: case had placed it, solely with the three people who
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: had planned and carried it out, and I 100% agree. Royce, Jacob,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: and Joseph were then transferred into California's prison system to
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: begin their sentences. But because each sentence included the possibility
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: of parole, the question of responsibility and whether any of
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: the three had genuinely came under to understand why they
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: murdered Elise was still not finished. But for David and
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Lisanne Pauler, the criminal case ending did not mean life
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: returned to anything resembling normal. The financial consequences alone were severe.
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: David had been a successful contractor, but in 2017, restitution
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: filings described him being able to work for roughly three
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: years after his daughter died. The family eventually lost their
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: home and were relying on food stamps to survive. Decades later,
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: David still carried guilt over the night Elise disappeared, particularly
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: his decision to not check on her after she said
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: she was going to bed. For Royce Casey, Jacob Delleschmidt,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: and Joseph Fiorella, the following decades unfolded inside separate California prisons.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Royce became eligible for parole on July 12th of 2016,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: and his prison record wasn't spotless. but his only serious
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: disciplinary incident identified in the supplied recorded account occurred in
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: 2001 when he participated in a staged fight after other
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: prisoners learned about his crime and threatened him. Over the years,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: he completed educational, vocational, and self-help programs. He earned a
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: GED and an associated degree in social and behavioral science
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: and worked towards further education. Prison psychologists eventually assessed him
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: and presented that he was a low risk of future violence.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: More importantly, Royce's explanation for Elise's murder, well, it changed.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Rather than continuing to place responsibility on Slayer, drugs, Jacob,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: or Joseph, he began describing himself as a 17-year-old angry kid, insecure,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: desperate to appear powerful. He said he had dehumanized other people,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: viewed violence as a legitimate way to express anger, and
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: sought approval from antisocial friends because he felt weak and inferior.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Speaking about Elise during his 2021 parole hearing, Royce said
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: the first thing he now thought about was the scale
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: of suffering he had caused. He acknowledged that Elise had been, quote,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: fighting for her life while he continued to attack her.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: He spoke about everything he She'd been deprived of graduating
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: from high school, attending prom, going to college, falling in love, marrying,
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: or even becoming a mother. He said he finally understood
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: that his own defects are what led him to murder. Quote,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: not my co-defendants, not music, not drugs. End quote. And
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: in all honesty, that is probably one of the most
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: real and self-aware things I've heard of any murderer ever say.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: It was on March 17th, 2021, the California Board of
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Parole Hearings found Royce suitable for release. David, Elise's father,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: even supported the decision at the time and publicly said
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: he believed Royce was suitable for parole. Governor Gavin Newsom, however,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: reversed the grant on July 9th. concluding Royce had not
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: sufficiently understood the internal process behind the murder and needed
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: stronger coping and release plans. But by 2023, another hearing
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: took place. Royce received another parole grant that year, but again,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: it was reversed. Now, Jacob's path, meanwhile, was a bit different.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: He was denied parole in 2017 and 2022, with decision-makers
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: repeatedly raising concerns about his tendency to shift responsibility onto
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: the others. He received parole in 2023, but Governor Newsom
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: reversed that decision as well. By 2025, however, Jacob's description
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: of his role changed dramatically. He no longer portrayed himself
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: as someone recruited into someone else's murder. Quote, I know
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: that I am most responsible for this crime, end quote.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: He also called himself the ringleader and acknowledged being involved
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: in the planning from the beginning was and said something
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: particularly significant about that day. Quote, End quote. Jacob was
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: ultimately granted parole again in May of 2025. The matter
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: went before a full parole board, and the decision stood.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: He was released that summer. Royce received his third parole
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: grant in March of 2025. Governor Newsom referred the decision
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: to the full board of parole hearings rather than reversing
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: it himself. And on July 23rd, 2025, almost exactly 30
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: years after Elise disappeared, the board affirmed Royce's parole. He
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: left Valley State Prison in early August and entered transitional
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: housing in Los Angeles County.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's pretty messed up that Jacob got out before Royce,
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: in my opinion. Because if it wasn't for Royce, They
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: probably wouldn't, they could maybe never would have been caught.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: That's true. However, according to the legal system, Royce didn't
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: strike a deal before admitting things, which is why he
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: was treated just the same. I'm assuming that's why he
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: was treated just the same. He didn't say of information,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: let's strike a deal. Let's get a plea deal. You know,
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: nothing like that. He just said, here's everything. Here's what happened.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: And he was treated just like the other two as
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: a murderer.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't think that the other two would
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: have ever come forward.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Probably not.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: So, I don't know. You have to take that into account,
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: I would say.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: But at the very least, they were released the same summer,
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: you know? So, it's not like he was sitting there
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: rotting much longer or anything.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: I know. And I honestly, in an ideal world, they
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: would never get released. But I just was like, that's
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: kind of surprising to me. Yeah.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Now, both Royce and Jacob were prohibited from returning to St. Louis,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: a bespoke County or contacting members of the Pollard family. Joseph,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: on the other hand, well, he remained incarcerated. Unlike Royce
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: and Jacob, Joseph had not openly participated in the parole hearings. He,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: in fact, waived his 2019 hearing. And on advice from
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: his attorney, Dennis Cusack. He did not answer questions during
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: his 2023 proceedings. He was denied parole and remained at
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: High Desert State Prison in Suzanneville, with another hearing tentatively
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: expected in 2026. But I couldn't find if anything, if
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: it had occurred yet or not, or if it was,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: you know, put out for a different date.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: That's all I know. Joseph also spent years challenging his conviction.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: His attorney argued that his original lawyer, David Hurst, should
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: not have waived a competency hearing after a neuropsychological assessment reported, well,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: his IQ at only 68 and identified developmental limitations. Courts
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: largely rejected those challenges, though, and questioned whether a competency
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: hearing would have changed the outcome. His lawyers have additionally
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: disputed the betrayal of Joseph as the group's leader as well.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: But regardless, 30 years after the murder, Two of the
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: three teenagers who walked into the eucalyptus grove with Elise
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: have been released from prison, while the third remains incarcerated currently.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: At the grove itself, much has changed. Many of the
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: eucalyptus trees are now gone, and a commercial plant nursery
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: occupies the area. However, near the entrance stands a small
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: weathered cross, marking what had happened there. Elise Poller was
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: 15 years old when she died. she would have turned
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: 46 years old in April of 2026. And this year
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: marks the 31st anniversary of her murder. But Elise was
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: more than a girl whose name became attached to a
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: horrific murder. She was creative and outgoing. She loved acting
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: and sports. She had a talent for designing and sewing
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: her own dresses and clothing. And like most teenagers, she
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: was still figuring out who she wanted to become. But unfortunately,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: she never got the opportunity to decide. And that's the
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: story of Elise Pauler.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: I don't even want to say anything. This story just hurts.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: It hurts.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: Just absolutely ridiculous reasoning. It just shouldn't have happened. It
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have happened at all. Like what the actual shit
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: is wrong with humans?
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: A lot, a lot. Let's be honest.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: And there's something else actually really bothering me though.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: What's that?
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Is that, so these three boys did a terrible act
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: and they were, they were essentially like, they're essentially taken
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: care of right in prison. They're fed, they have clothes, whatever.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: And then even when they're released, there's programs and stuff.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: But then for the family that loses this beautiful young
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: girl is just– loses their house and is poor and
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: has absolutely no help. Yeah.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know. That's just– like that's not okay.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: These boys got free education in school, free post-secondary education
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: in school.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: And meanwhile, this– because they had other children. Yeah. The
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: parents are struggling financially because they're having to deal with
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: something they should never have to deal with. And so
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: they might not even be able to afford to be
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: able to send these other two kids to post-secondary.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know. That is just right there is really
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: messed up.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: That shows how our system is in this world. It
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: is beyond fucked.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: Because it would have had to be them, I guess, that...
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: thought worst case scenario and put like life insurance i
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: guess on their kids i guess to get through something
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: like this but that just the there's no logic there
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: that just yeah that doesn't make any sense to.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: Me but then does life insurance i don't i know
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: some don't but does life insurance cover being murdered oh
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: yeah right so if they did have that insurance would
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: the insurance company even fulfill their part of the agreement
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: you don't know Because.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Honestly, that is something that I just have never really,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: I guess, truly, like I've thought about it, but not
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: like really thought about it. You know, when your family
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: has a crisis and it's a child, like you're going
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: to be messed up for a long time and not
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: going to be able to, you know, really work.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: So how does that, like, what do you do? There's
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: no resources for that whatsoever, really, is there?
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's like.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: There's probably some charity type stuff.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Very little, though. That's the thing. There's going to be
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: some like self-help groups, things like that, you know, go
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: to other people dealing with grief. But it's going to
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: be like voluntarily run, very minimal funding. It's certainly not
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: going to put any dollars in the pocket of someone
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: who's needing assistance. It's going to be psychological help, mental assistance,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: that sort of stuff.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: I think there are... I have heard of like victim relief...
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: support stuff out there, but I, yeah, it's definitely not enough.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: I'm sure.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Well, often the victim relief actually comes from public funding too,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: especially nowadays with go fund me accounts and stuff like that.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah. But they probably wouldn't have had go fund
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: me and stuff back then.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Okay. You're right now. Like people would probably someone, a
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: loved one would set something up and they would, they, okay.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: But the fact still, that's not enough. Yeah.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: The fact that it's not a government thing, entity stepping
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: in and having assistance for someone in this case. Yet
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: the government is the one assisting the people who've committed
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: the crimes.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's so gross. That's yucky.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Speaks so loud and is, as you say, so yucky indeed.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: But that's the world we live in.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't like this. What's going through my head
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: right now. Cause I've never thought about it this indefinitely.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: And I think we've never, you know, at the end
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: of a story been like, well, these people, you know,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: they lost their kid and then they lose their house and,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: They're using food stamps and stuff like shit. Okay.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: It's a dark place to be and it's going to
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: send you down dark paths. And the result of that
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: can be losing everything.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: And even after going through all of that shit, David
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: still is like, yeah, I think Royce could get out. Like,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: are you fucking kidding me? Are you a freaking saint?
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Because I feel like I'd be like, fuck no. He
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: needs to rot in jail forever and go fuck yourself.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: I agree. Well, on that note, if you guys want
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: to check out the description of this podcast, you can
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: check out our social links, including Patreon, Instagram, Facebook, all
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: that good stuff. We're an independent show. All the research here,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: the writing, everything is done by us. The recording, we're
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: currently sitting at our kitchen counter in our tiny home
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: with our two huskies sleeping over in the corner beside us.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: And Ben gets me all riled up and then we
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: hit stop and he has to deal with this after.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: I've got to deal with the aftermath. We have no funding,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: no government funding to help us. We are it.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: But seriously, if you guys are here supporting us, we
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: appreciate you in like in ways you can't even imagine.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: If you want to support the show, a review goes
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: a long way. It tells other people to check out
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: our show. It tells other people what you think of
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: our show. You can shoot us a message. You can
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: give us a review. You can join Patreon. And as
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: I said, October, you get a lot of cool stuff
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: in October.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: Damn good month to join.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: And I hope I was talking fast enough. I covered
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: up the sound of our dog sneezing in the background.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You might have heard it. We'll see.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: But regardless, you guys are amazing. Thank you for being here.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: And until next time.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: Stay wicked.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: © transcript Emily Beynon you