Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #48: Interview with Clare Kumar, Regional Director, Hidden Disabilities Sunflower Canada

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #48: Interview with Clare Kumar, Regional Director, Hidden Disabilities Sunflower Canada · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA invites you to listen to
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her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here.
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Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights,
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perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been
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internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
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I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
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through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
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author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments.
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In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian
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government to make its website accessible to every Canadian,
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not just the sighted ones.
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In July of 2019, 19, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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disability groups to turn equal access into federal law and most recently,
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on June the 3rd, 2022, I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum
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Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
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policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every bit as
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remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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Clare Kumar, I'd like to welcome you to our podcast,
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and thank you for taking the time to be with us today.
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Clare Kumar: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be with you,
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Donna.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. So, Clare, are we ready to go down to business here?
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Clare Kumar: You bet.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right. Every time I hear the name Clare, I think.
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And you may not have been born at that time, but there was a singer,
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an Irish singer. His name was Gilbert O'Sullivan.
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Clare Kumar: Oh, yes.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And he had this song called Eau Clare.
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Clare Kumar: The moment I met you, I swear.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Every time I hear the name Clare, I think of that song and I think,
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oh my lord, you know. Yeah.
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And I like the way the little kid laughed in the in in the song.
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Clare Kumar: That's right. At the very end.
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Yeah. Because uncle Ray, she had to, uncle Ray.
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Yeah. Singing. I was telling the story when she.
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Yeah. Won't you marry me, uncle Ray?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Eau Clare. Yes.
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Clare Kumar: Yes. Yeah. It's a precious song.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I really I wonder what became of him.
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Clare Kumar: I don't know.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Might be dead by now. I shouldn't say.
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Clare Kumar: That. The song lives on, that's for sure.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Clare, you describe yourself as a quote.
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Productivity. Productivity catalyst and inclusivity
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advocate. What pivotal experience first showed you that productivity and
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inclusion are inseparable?
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And how does that insight shape the work that you do today?
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Clare Kumar: Thank you. I yes, I've worked in productivity,
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moving on from starting work in organization and in people's homes to then realizing the
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corporate world still needs me, even though I was a little bit traumatized
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from the corporate world.
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And I worked for 20 years with people in their homes,
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in their offices, all the while going on my own personal journey through chronic illness.
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And most recently being diagnosed autistic about just over a year ago.
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And what what struck me was a deep understanding of how individuals work and
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that it wasn't in one way.
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I have a have a hashtag I use quite often called productivity is personal.
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And when I started to understand, you know, and really look at the different
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ways people choose to work and prefer to work and really do their best.
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Yeah, I zoomed out and I thought, well, you know,
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as leaders, we can want the best from our teams.
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But there's a bias called false consensus effect,
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which leads us to think that the way we think and act ought to be the way other people
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think and act. And because of that, we make some very wrong assumptions.
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And so I thought, you know what I want to bridge individual performance and collective
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performance and understand that it looks very different,
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and invite leaders to think about the fact that we we also perform under wildly
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different conditions when we're at our best.
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And so that's my work today.
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Now, coming out of all of that insight and my own personal experience of being designed out
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of the corporate world, essentially, and I'm like,
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wait a minute, if that's happening to me, it's happening to thousands and thousands of
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other people. And I think that it's a bit of a crime to to not offer people the conditions
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in which they can excel.
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Sheerly from a reason of bias and false assumption.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. Yeah.
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Now many of our listeners juggle Energy Limitus sensory sensitivities or chronic
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fatigue. Could you explain your quotation mark?
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Productivity us see a percentage.
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Clare Kumar: It's CPR. Yeah. Productivity CPR.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Sorry.
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Clare Kumar: That's okay.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Framework capacity and priorities.
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Recovery and share one practical way someone could put into action or put put it into
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into action this week.
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Clare Kumar: Yeah. Oh thank you. So productivity CPR came out of working with individuals who wanted to
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be more productive at work.
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And they'd often come to me with a question about a to do list or perfectionism or
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procrastination. Nation, and I realized that we had to zoom out a
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little bit, and we had to look at well-being and we had to look at values.
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And so that's why before before coming to what I call rituals are tried and true
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practices that we like to engage in, I wanted to to also pardon me,
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to excuse my tickly throat.
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We we wanted to zoom out and look at performance,
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which is the P in CPR, and that's well-being.
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And that comes from my own health journey as well.
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And being out even bigger than that is our values and what's important to us,
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which frame our priorities.
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And so one practical way, something that someone can do today,
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I, I think is the zooming out piece because what I,
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what I say has the biggest return is making sure your energy and attention is aiming in
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the right direction. And if you are at in work or in a significant relationship,
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or really struggling against your innate values,
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that's going to be your biggest productivity thief.
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We'll have things like moral injury, being asked to work for an organization we
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don't believe in. We'll have big gaps and that's the biggest piece forward.
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So some tuning in to say, am I in alignment?
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Am I aware and am I in alignment with the work I'm being called to do?
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And if not, that's that would be my biggest invitation.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Now you spent 15 years inside large tech firms before launching your
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own your own consultancy and you know stream life.
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What Lessons from Corporate Life still guides your advice to leaders who really want
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truly human centered workplaces?
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Clare Kumar: It's interesting. I think in our experience, we're often given positive role modeling,
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and then we're also given examples of things we might not want to do.
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And so I'll offer you up a positive example.
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And this will go back to my work at a loyalty management firm actually in the mid 90s.
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And their leader. Pardon me.
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Their leader was incredibly astute at tuning into individual performance,
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recognizing what environments invited someone to thrive.
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And I remember we we had switched offices and all of a sudden I had found we had moved and
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in a new office. I was given an office where I was in the middle of everything,
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and this office had some beautifully fun characters who liked to play Nerf gun wars in
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the afternoon. And and I really struggled to have a client conversation in that
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environment. I think my president then noticed and I was able to move to a quieter
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location, which which suited me better.
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So that's one that's one lesson.
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One positive lesson. Unfortunately, I have a whole slew of things not to do that
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I also carry forward, but that that also has a positive role in my
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work today too.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh good lord. Now, listeners may have noticed sunflower lanyards appearing
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in airports and arenas arenas as the Canadian regional director for the Hidden
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Disabilities Sunflower program.
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What does the lanyard signal and why is it such a powerful tool for cultivating
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compassion in customer service?
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And before you answer, I just wanted to to let you know that I only
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learned about the sunflower.
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My goodness, might have been the a year ago through Cathy Saliba,
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who we both know who introduced us.
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I didn't know anything about the sunflower until I met with her,
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and then she brought up the sunflower.
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So I will let you answer my question.
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Clare Kumar: Thank you. Yes. And thanks.
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Shout out to Cathy for this introduction.
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Yeah. I I'm grateful. Grateful for that.
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Now, the sunflower program, if people are, would like to kind of bring
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this to their imagination.
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Now, how you might imagine it is, is an individual who has a hidden disability
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or non-apparent condition.
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They might choose to wear a lanyard, and that lanyard will be this gorgeous bright
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green. And on it you'll find bright yellow sunflowers.
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And that sunflower is a symbol that that person does live with,
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a condition that might warrant more the need for more patients,
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more time, more kindness.
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And so it's making something invisible, non-visible,
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visible to people with sight.
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So I will I will be super clear about that.
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I I think it's effective for staff to be able to Recognize someone
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who's choosing. It's totally voluntary.
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Item to wear when you feel like it will serve you.
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It's a reminder that. Oh, wait a minute.
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Let me remember to view this person with compassion and curiosity and meet them with
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an offer of support. So my personal mission with,
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along with the the move from individual performance to collective performance is
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really around inviting a more compassionate culture.
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And this sunflower is a symbol we've needed to indicate that we need to park that false
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consensus, that bias that I was talking about.
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We need to move aside from that which is which is really our brains own productivity
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tool. Bias is is one of those things our brain uses to make quick sense of the
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situation. The possibilities.
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We get it wrong. And the sunflower is a cue to remind you to say double check.
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Are you making an assumption here, or do you want to lean into back into your
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curiosity and meet that passenger or resident of a municipality student at a university?
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All kinds of organizations around the world now use the sunflower,
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and I'm delighted to be growing the program here in Canada.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So it's what I would call the soft approach.
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Clare Kumar: How do you mean?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I guess the soft approach is like it's a it's a very tactful way of getting people
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to be aware.
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Clare Kumar: It's I guess it offers a bit of subtlety.
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Yeah. It allows a bit of discretion and subtlety and what I,
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what I like about the organization is they recognize this.
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And more recently they came out with a new card that individuals can order and
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customize, that allows an individual instead of having to repeat verbally their needs
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every time. Imagine you're traveling through an airport and every person you meet,
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you have to explain what your needs are.
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Yes, yes, this card will actually it has what's called NFC or near-field communication
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technology. It will allow you to hold it up to a telephone or a smartphone,
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yours or someone else's, and bring up temporarily information about
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what your needs are. So if the person can read that screen,
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then they will be able to determine what support you need without you having to to
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verbalize it. So great for people who are nonverbal.
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Also, it say it adds a little bit more discretion so that you may not want to repeat
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it in a in a place where you can be heard and also be tired of repeating it.
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So it also reduces some of the cognitive demand and energy required.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like that I am legally blind, so that I often rely on staff who may not
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recognize my disability at first glance.
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How can organizations train frontline teams to respond appropriately without
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crying when they see the sunflower?
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Clare Kumar: Yeah. You know, it's part of the program that any organization that joins as a member at
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the at the, you know, of a significant size,
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they undergo sunflower awareness training to understand what's the sunflower,
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which we described just recently, briefly what's a hidden disability or a
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hidden condition to give a sense of the the huge scope of different conditions that
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exist. And then what should I do if I see a sunflower?
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And prying is definitely not part of it.
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There is absolutely no need or reason to disclose a diagnosis,
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a condition. It's really around saying, how might I support you?
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And for the individual to say I would, I would be helped by.
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And so it's focusing on barriers and needs rather than condition.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very interesting. Yeah.
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Now your Happy Space registered podcast explores where product productivity meets
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inclusivity. Which recent guest story surprised you most.
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And why should leaders pay attention to it?
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Clare Kumar: Thank you so much. The Happy Space podcast has been a bit of an evolution from my first
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identifying as a highly sensitive person to now being aware of autism for myself.
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And and I've actually evolved since I, since the information you were so kindly
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looking at to pull all of these wonderful questions together,
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I've evolved slightly from productivity meeting inclusivity to it's where inclusion
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meets design, because I'm most interested now in inviting more hospitable containers,
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those environments, our space, culture or experience where people can
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perform at their best.
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And so when I'm thinking of Guest stories.
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And what surprised me.
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There's so many. I mean, what's really interesting is I've been
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recording the podcast for during the past three years.
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And number two case, Sergeant of Hoch, which is a global architecture and design
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firm. I invited her back for I think it's episode 58.
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Yeah. So so Kay and I have come to know each other a little bit,
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and she's written a book all about neuro inclusive workplace design.
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And she's got five children.
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There's neurodiversity in her family and, you know,
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talking to Kay about her own, her own experience and then how it's informed
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her professional work around inclusion and neurodivergence in particular has been really
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powerful for me from from episode two.
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Like I said, she was my.
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I was so excited when she agreed to be on episode two of a fledgling brand new podcast
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and then rejoin me when her book came out.
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And what I like to do on the podcast is share.
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Shine a light on thought leaders in the space.
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And also, what I'm looking forward to is throwing more light on examples of more
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hospitable environments, spaces, culture and experiences that are
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getting it right so more people are being included.
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I'm on the hunt for those are okay.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, go for it. Hybrid work is here to stay.
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Yet many home offices are noisy or pure or poorly lit.
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What are three sensory friendly adjustments?
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Any employee can make to create what you call happy space for focus.
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Clare Kumar: Oh my gosh, I love this question because I saw so many people,
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even pre-pandemic, working in the basement.
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And for for noise reasons that can be effective because there's a division.
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But boy, are you starved for light in a lot of basements that I've been in.
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So I think, you know, when when space is under pressure,
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we have to then look at our communication and the other users in the space and may need to
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negotiate sharing that space effectively.
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I mean, in the pandemic, I saw people, young professionals who who,
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you know, in sharing a 500 square foot condo and two desks in the living room.
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And, boy, there needs to be some negotiation and flexibility.
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And and you know, that was really tough I think I think I would I'm,
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I'm surprised to see that doors haven't become more popular,
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given the pressures we were under during the pandemic and shared spaces that that Doris
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haven't become more more appreciated.
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But I think it is also our recognition that light is so important.
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So three sensory friendly adjustments that any employee employee can make.
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I think one is, one is first really negotiating and really intentionally having a
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discussion with whether it be roommates or family members about,
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hey, what's your week looking like?
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What design opportunities do we have to take care of each other in our need to share this
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space? I mean, my my love is here right now, actually,
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because he's recovering from a surgery.
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And so we're sharing this space, and I need to let him know when I need quiet.
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And he needs to let me know when the soccer tournaments are on.
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And he wants to watch something.
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So we have to have a, you know, a conversation about priorities is
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really a beautiful starting point in shared space.
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I think when it comes to sound, headphones are a wonderful addition.
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We were just having a conversation about this at home, actually,
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when you talk to a microphone that is on your computer or on your phone and it's some
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distance away from your face.
25:00
Yeah. Tend to shout at it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I know that. Yeah.
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Clare Kumar: So if you can a have the microphone close to you,
25:09
you, you no longer feel the need to project your voice at it.
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And if you're wearing headphones, you're also getting the sound back in your
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ear, which gives you a real consciousness of what you're projecting so that can bring the
25:23
volume down, along with the intent to speak only as loudly as necessary.
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I use this in my workshops too, when I am running an exercise with a room
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full of people. I will remind the room several times and the room never gets loud.
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So that's huge. And then lighting is really important to talk about because there is a
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huge lack of awareness around safe lighting.
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Given that LED lighting and screens are so prevalent.
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Most people I think are familiar with night mode and low light on their screens now,
26:04
and I encourage everyone to do that.
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I highly recommend f dot f l u x as a free app you can put on your computer which will
26:15
dim your screen with the sunset.
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It's a beautiful, beautiful tool.
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Yeah. And also being aware of your light fixtures.
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A lot of people now are using cold color, temperature,
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LED lighting, and the wavelengths can at those cold temperatures,
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we were meant to only have colder color temperature in broad daylight.
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But we're now putting bulbs in our homes at night with those wavelengths,
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which can disrupt circadian rhythm.
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They can trigger migraine.
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For me, my eyes are sensitive to those colors.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
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Clare Kumar: And if we want to be careful about the humans in the space,
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and probably the pets too, I would bet.
27:01
Yeah. Having lighting that reflects the lighting outside is a really good cue.
27:07
And at night, then dimming and warming up the tones and even bringing light,
27:14
bringing light down. So lamps on the side you know,
27:19
closer to where we are is a much better option.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think people think of that, though.
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Clare Kumar: I know, I think we're sold.
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Faster is better, brighter is better, louder is better.
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And we're not we're not necessarily connecting it to well-being,
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but we're not even necessarily aware.
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I find as a as a sensitive person, I'm very tuned to this.
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But what happens is I've been at a party, for example,
27:48
and I've dimmed the lights and several people will turn around and look at me and go,
27:54
My God, that feels so much better.
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No one would have articulated that there was a problem and be certainly not gone to dim
28:03
the lights themselves.
28:04
So I, I find that I think this is an example of autistic insensitive people being the
28:12
canary in the coal mine, if you will, and being aware of toxicity,
28:19
whether it be smell as well, smell.
28:21
You know, I'm really I'm really narrowing my focus to sound,
28:24
light and scent, which are pervasive in the environment and can really trigger adverse
28:30
reactions in people. And a lot of people are really conditioned to overlook it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I can really empathize, especially with noise and scent.
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You know, when I had enough functional sight I could also empathize with,
28:48
with, you know, the lighting and everything like that.
28:52
So I get what you're saying.
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Clare Kumar: Well I wonder, I wonder even too whether the lighting might I believe it does affect
29:00
people with low vision and who are blind to the color temperature indeed may affect as
29:07
well.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think it does, because when I think about it,
29:11
I think it does. And I think it's it's something that we all need to become much
29:16
more aware of these things if we want to create,
29:21
you know, like user friendly environments.
29:23
Right.
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Clare Kumar: Yeah, absolutely. And, and what we I mean you would live this all
29:31
the time. What we can't see can't we, we really have to make an extra effort to
29:36
remember to deal with it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. What we can't hear in the case of my mom.
29:43
Yeah. We have to become more familiar with it as well.
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Clare Kumar: That's right. That's right.
29:49
Yeah.
29:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now, you often speak about and I'm going to quote you here,
29:54
neurological safety. And for listeners new to that term,
29:59
including myself. Could you paint a picture of what a neurologically safe meeting
30:09
feels like, and perhaps contrast it with a common meeting mistake.
30:18
Clare Kumar: Well, what a beautiful question. Get me to be really practical right off.
30:22
Which is? Which is no, which is brilliant.
30:24
Let me apply. So let me give you a brief description of neurological safety.
30:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
30:31
Clare Kumar: And I've, I've created this term because Pardon me.
30:38
I've used the term neurological safety to really represent the conditions that our
30:44
nervous system needs to relax and feel comfortable,
30:49
to move forward with ease.
30:50
I, I in. I've been told in certain markets it's not a palatable analogy,
30:56
but the red poster with Keep Calm and Carry On,
31:01
which is a World War Two poster.
31:03
So I'm very sensitive to people who might be like,
31:05
no thank you. But in North America, it's been turned into a quite commonly used
31:11
meme with all kinds of different interpretations and different meanings.
31:15
But the idea is we want a container that doesn't invite us to want to leave.
31:23
Our nervous system is not stressed.
31:25
We're like, yes, I belong here.
31:26
I'm comfortable. I can keep moving forward.
31:29
So it's passengers in an airport who are not stressed out by the security interaction.
31:36
It's it's students in a in a schoolroom who can follow the teacher's instructions.
31:44
It's somebody in a theater who's not plugging their ears because the number is too loud or
31:50
strobe lights are flashing or.
31:52
So it's all of these elements that really invite people to say,
31:56
whoa, I'm not safe here.
31:58
And I don't think we've ever had a term to collectively talk about how we can feel this
32:05
nervous system safety to be able to continue.
32:09
So that's what the term means.
32:12
When I think about a meeting I mean I can think about all kinds of things from let's
32:18
say not having an agenda to start with.
32:21
Right. Right. So if we think of someone like myself with autism who really loves knowing
32:27
what's going to happen and when and can relax because of that knowing,
32:33
there's one easy example a meeting with I went to a conference a couple of weeks ago.
32:38
Amazing speakers. Amazing world class, no agenda.
32:45
I didn't know how to prioritize my energy and attention to be able to get the most out of
32:50
that day. And if I'm driven by FOMO, a sense of fear of missing out,
32:55
then I try to attend the whole thing.
32:57
And now I'm exhausted.
32:59
So that's one example of for me, it was very frustrating to know I had missed
33:05
probably the speaker I would have loved to hear.
33:08
And this sense of design it so everybody has to be there for everything is simply not
33:12
respectful. So I think it's really important to think about the structure of the meeting
33:18
and the modality of how we're sharing information,
33:23
the invitations to move physically.
33:26
So if somebody can't sit in a chair, then let them sit on the floor,
33:30
let them stand at the back, the invitations to engage in different ways
33:36
with different formats and to to be have some agency in how they participate,
33:42
I think are maybe three simple things that we can do to make engagement feel more
33:47
neurologically safe.
33:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, boy, am I ever learning so much about comfort and meaning.
33:54
What it really means, you know now, and I hope I have this
33:59
pronounced correctly the registered clothing filing,
34:05
is that correct?
34:06
Clare Kumar: Pleo. Exactly. Pleo. You said it perfectly.
34:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Okay, so let's start again.
34:12
The Pleo registered clothing filing system that you co-invented has been sold on
34:22
QVC and HSN. What sparked that idea, and how did you bridge the gap
34:32
between a clever organizing hack and a mass market product?
34:41
Clare Kumar: Oh thank you. What a journey this has been.
34:45
I have to give full credit to Yuriko Zakimi, who was my partner in the business and
34:52
co-inventor of Pleo. It's something that the concept she came up with,
34:58
and we worked on it together to patent the idea and and further develop the line.
35:04
So we are co-inventors of the, the system.
35:08
And we actually even had it at bed Bath and Beyond in Canada,
35:12
the US and Mexico. So, so to to take an idea and turn it into a mass
35:21
market product is I think it's, I think it's 0.03% of patented ideas actually
35:29
make it to market. Right?
35:31
Statistic I learned it oh, probably over a decade ago.
35:35
So it takes it takes a lot of effort and belief.
35:41
And I think what, what Eureka and I had together,
35:45
which was beautiful, we had a great combination of skill sets,
35:49
her creativity and industrial design background,
35:54
my savvy as a marketer and understanding the organization market.
36:01
Because this this product helps you fold clothes and gives them an infrastructure.
36:08
So it's a template that stays inside each garment.
36:12
And instead of a piece of paper, for example,
36:15
like a instead of a t shirt is pretty floppy.
36:18
And I would like it to a piece of paper to manage.
36:21
But we turn that piece of paper into a book.
36:24
And so that t shirt is now a six by nine inch book.
36:28
You can put on a shelf in a drawer in a suitcase because of the product that's
36:33
inside. And we did all of this before Marie Kondo came on the market and kind of
36:40
popularized the idea of folding in such a way that you could see your clothes.
36:45
We were we were well ahead of of Marie doing her great work.
36:51
And so it was interesting to be ahead of the market and try and teach people about
36:59
something they didn't know.
37:01
What I'm thrilled is I'm back in market now with a new partner with Patricia Bello.
37:08
Sorry, she's a Canadian inventor and product company,
37:13
and she is now managing the manufacturing of Pleo.
37:18
And we're we're working again to make it available.
37:21
And I'm told it's selling well.
37:24
And you know, I'm really excited because I think we had,
37:28
you know, almost close to five star reviews and people loved it.
37:32
It was just really difficult to tell the story on a package.
37:36
But now that we have video and now that Marie Kondo has taught a lot of people about
37:41
folding vertically even though she didn't use a product I think what what what cinched it
37:48
for me that this should be a product is I was working with people in their homes and
37:53
teaching them to fold vertically.
37:55
Like I said back in 2005, 2006.
37:58
And what I found was everybody would have to refold their entire drawer every couple of
38:05
weeks because things would just mess up.
38:07
The fabric would stick to each other, one shirt would stick to another,
38:10
and within two weeks you had to fold everything again.
38:13
Right. Cleo, you fold.
38:15
You fold. Right. Stays neat.
38:17
It's like that's the brand promise.
38:19
You fold it and then it stays beautiful.
38:22
So it's It's been a labor of love.
38:25
It's been a lot of work and a lot of faith in an idea.
38:30
But then so much fun, too.
38:32
I've had so much fun experience meeting people and watching the moment where their
38:36
eyes, you know, their their jaw drops when they,
38:40
they see there's a moment in the folding where you lay a t shirt down flat.
38:46
I'll try and describe it for you, Donna, and for your listeners as well.
38:49
Sure. Take a t shirt sideways to you and put it.
38:53
Let's just say you're going to fold on a on a table.
38:56
Yeah. Put that down. And then the Pleo clothing filer,
39:00
the the main model is about nine inches wide and 17in long.
39:09
And in that are two hinged areas which allow you to fold that into three pieces.
39:17
When you place that on a t shirt, though, you lay it flat and then you fold the
39:21
t shirt around it first each side, then the bottom and the top.
39:27
So now you've got the whole Pleo filer is embedded in that t shirt.
39:32
And then you just flip it twice and you take that three pieces and make it the one book
39:40
size. Have I have I have I have I lost or have I done an okay job explaining that.
39:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've done an okay job?
39:47
And I have to tell you that my mom would love to hear all about this because she's very
39:51
high and falling.
39:53
Clare Kumar: Oh.
39:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very, very high.
39:56
Clare Kumar: Okay, well, com is where she could see she and your listeners to if they're curious and
40:01
they want to see a little image of how it's done,
40:04
that would be where you can actually see what it looks like.
40:08
And yeah, I find, I find it's it's wonderful people who want to have a neat environment.
40:15
It's wonderful for travel in particular.
40:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
40:18
Clare Kumar: But it's it's also made people with less dexterity or less inclination to organize,
40:26
feel really proud of what they can create with very low effort.
40:31
So this connects again to performance.
40:34
And recognizing people like to do things differently and giving a tool to have really
40:39
beautiful results, but bringing the effort down.
40:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This is so interesting.
40:46
I gotta go tell her about this.
40:50
Now, parents of neurodivergent or highly sensitive kids sometimes fear
41:00
that rigidity will stifle creativity, yet chaos can overwhelm.
41:09
What balance do you recommend for fostering both order and imagination at home?
41:19
Clare Kumar: I love this question so much.
41:22
Because personally, along with my autism, I have a side order of ADHD.
41:29
And if we're talking neurodivergent, neurodivergent shows up very,
41:34
very differently. And I've already mentioned the idea that productivity is personal.
41:39
So let's take those assumptions and say, okay,
41:41
what does it look like now?
41:44
Adhd can have a great need for stimulation and novelty.
41:50
Autism, on the other hand, I mentioned I like to know what's going to
41:54
happen and when. Right? I need this idea of structure.
41:57
And clearly I've got behind an organizing product so that that makes things neat.
42:02
But imagine the creativity that came in creating that organizing product that
42:08
delivers structure. So my invitation for anyone listening is to think about and tune
42:16
into, first of all, the person's preference, what they're naturally gravitating toward,
42:23
because that will likely continue.
42:26
Do not put a system in that someone is.
42:31
It's too fussy. There's too much structure.
42:34
I think you put in as little structure as you need to feel calm,
42:41
to feel neurologically safe.
42:43
Okay, so when you have structure That makes you feel relaxed.
42:48
That's the right amount of structure.
42:50
For some, that will mean a basket with t shirts in it,
42:53
and they can just pick one.
42:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Or.
42:55
Clare Kumar: Somebody else. It might mean color coded hangers.
42:59
This is not not that I'm talking about myself at university,
43:02
but all my clothes match the color of the hangers that I have.
43:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
43:07
Clare Kumar: Because I found it visually beautiful.
43:09
It was dialing down visual chaos and and so it doesn't look like one thing.
43:17
And even, even for someone, they might feel very calm in their car,
43:22
for example, to have everything have a home or in their office to have a lot of
43:26
structure, but in another environment they may not want that.
43:30
So it's almost place by place and personality by personality,
43:35
temperament by temperament.
43:38
Looking at the propensity to create order, I actually developed a whole organizing
43:44
personality matrix, looking at the propensity to create order that that drive piece versus
43:53
on the opposite axis, the tolerance for chaos,
43:57
the tolerance for that visual stimulation and disarray.
44:01
And depending on what quadrant you're in, you're either someone who has no interest and
44:07
no drive in order, and that's that.
44:10
If we think of The Odd Couple, that old show,
44:13
you would have the polar opposites there.
44:15
You'd have someone who has no need for order and structure,
44:18
and then Felix and Oscar.
44:20
Right. And then one character who need extreme order.
44:25
Well, there's often also people who are not able to have the drive and energy to create
44:33
that order. Adhd and dopamine and motivation are often a challenge.
44:39
So figuring out how to tap into motivation is really important in that place.
44:45
And then people who have a really low tolerance for,
44:52
for disorganization, they're going to have likely a natural,
44:56
more motivation to create that order.
44:58
If they're not bothered by it.
45:01
Then there's, there's, there's a difference than in their internal
45:05
drive to do it from a drive to order and a tolerance from chaos.
45:08
So there's there's four personalities in there which are kind of interesting to look
45:12
at. And then if you've got a family or a shared office pinpointing where each person
45:17
is to just understand their perspective is a beautiful,
45:22
beautiful way of reaching out to understand, oh,
45:25
you see it like this. Oh, wow, that's really interesting.
45:29
How can we find a way for you to help me take care of me?
45:32
And how can we help you take care of you?
45:34
What compromises can we make?
45:36
I mean, at university, I had a lovely roommate,
45:40
but she had. She was brilliant, intellectually brilliant,
45:44
but had really she said to me, oh my God, I've never thought of putting
45:49
something back in the same place, I got it.
45:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God.
45:53
Clare Kumar: Yeah. So when she used to leave for weekends I would cover her side of the room with
45:59
orange blankets. I have pictures of this. I would cover it.
46:02
And then when she decided when she was back in the room, I hung the blankets from the
46:06
ceiling because I could not.
46:08
I could not take the visual stimulation from the mess of her room,
46:12
her side.
46:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I fall into the category.
46:16
I absolutely dislike chaos.
46:19
Everything has to be in order.
46:22
And you know, some people say to me it's because they're vision impaired. And I'm
46:25
saying, no, I don't think so.
46:28
Clare Kumar: Yeah, it's quite possible that you have taking sight out of it.
46:33
You have an appreciation for that order.
46:36
It brings you comfort.
46:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything must be in order for me in my kitchen.
46:42
It has to be organized.
46:43
My mom is the same thing.
46:44
My sister in law is the same thing.
46:46
But another sister in law of mine.
46:48
Oh my God. Everything is all over the place.
46:52
Clare Kumar: Yeah. Yeah. And as an organizer, I saw everything.
46:56
I would walk into some homes and they would say,
47:00
oh, gosh, I apologize for the mess.
47:02
And I would be like, I can't even see a mess.
47:05
Like, I don't see evidence of disorder.
47:07
But then you'd open a cupboard and tucked away behind the cupboard or in a drawer.
47:13
That's so outwardly, at first glance, there wasn't disorder,
47:17
but inside there was.
47:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
47:23
Clare Kumar: But then, you know, on my intake form, I used to have a question.
47:26
Do you like to pick and pluck so you can, you can see or identify what's in in a drawer
47:32
because you can feel it and you can identify what's there. And you can take what you need.
47:36
Or do you like to rummage around and kind of guess what things are and then go,
47:39
oh yeah, now I've got it.
47:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't like to rummage around at all.
47:43
It has to be in its place or else I get very confused.
47:48
Clare Kumar: Yes. I didn't think anybody would pick rummage until I met people that like to pick
47:53
rummage.
47:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Really?
47:55
Clare Kumar: Yes. That's how. That's how broad a range it is.
47:58
So yes, I want to. I want to feel like I'm rummaging in my wardrobe every day.
48:02
I'm like, oh my gosh, I felt that's uncomfortable for me.
48:06
But for them, that was home.
48:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my God, I just learned something new.
48:12
Yeah, I like to rummage.
48:13
Clare Kumar: Yeah.
48:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Our clock is starting to wind down, but I like this next question for you.
48:20
Okay. You hold coaching credentials from International Coaching Federation and Royal
48:29
Roads University. When you coach executives who are skeptical about flexibility.
48:39
What breakthrough conversation tends to change their minds?
48:47
Clare Kumar: What a what an amazingly salient point right now,
48:52
given a lot of pressure from government and banks and financial institutions on driving a
48:59
return to office.
49:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
49:02
Clare Kumar: I'm it's it's saddens me because I'm not hearing in this conversation an
49:08
acknowledgment of of disability and caregiving and a multitude of reasons why it
49:15
makes sense to be flexible.
49:17
What I one conversation I remember with a tech executive probably three years ago now,
49:24
was a conversation exactly around false consensus effect,
49:27
which we started our conversation with.
49:30
And I remember that gentleman saying to me, oh yeah,
49:33
yeah, working from home.
49:34
It's great. You know, it's great for anything administrative,
49:37
but any real work I get done, I do that in the office.
49:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow. Okay.
49:43
Clare Kumar: Yeah. And I thanked them for their for sharing their observation.
49:46
And I said, you know, would it be interesting for you to know that
49:50
somebody else might say the exact opposite?
49:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
49:54
Clare Kumar: Yeah. And just how you said, you know what?
49:56
All people like to rummage.
49:58
Oh my gosh. That false consensus.
50:00
False consensus effect bias is huge.
50:03
We just assume like, if I get my best work done in the office,
50:07
then you, Donna, you should get your best work done in the office,
50:09
too. Right, right. And so I, I really urge people to hold on to that
50:16
concept that productivity is flexibility, that nuance is necessary,
50:22
that autonomy is for adults.
50:24
These are all hashtags I use.
50:26
And some of them I've put on my line of t shirts I call Inclusive Cities,
50:31
which are kind of fun.
50:33
But they're, they're important messages and they're in a recent keynote I just gave
50:38
talking about inclusion as a design opportunity.
50:42
I think that the more conscious we are about honoring the fact that people work
50:49
differently and their lives present different needs on top of whatever preference they
50:59
might have for working, there are other constraints at play.
51:03
And I urge leaders to really have the patience to say compassionate,
51:09
to be creative and be courageous enough to hold on to the fact that equity is not
51:17
equality.
51:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like that equity is not equality.
51:23
I think you're right. I agree with you there.
51:26
Clare Kumar: Yeah.
51:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But people don't think about it, you know, like they think,
51:30
well, you know, I love to rummage through things.
51:33
So therefore, Clare, you you must like to do the same.
51:37
Donna, you must like to do the same, right?
51:40
Well, it's not so. People don't think enough,
51:44
you know, they just. They just think that because they do it that way,
51:48
then the rest of the world probably does it that way.
51:53
Clare Kumar: Or should do it that way.
51:54
Exactly. When they're in a in a place of power.
51:57
Yeah. I think too, that we don't recognize enough what we ask of people around the work
52:06
environment itself. And right now, where I live in Toronto,
52:11
a commute is a significant energy and expense.
52:15
And indeed there is personal risk.
52:18
If you're going to get on a car, you're going to be at risk.
52:21
If you're going to get on the subway, you may be at risk.
52:24
Yeah. There is there is a cost to all of that.
52:28
And I do not think organizations do a good job of acknowledging the ask they're making
52:34
of employees. You know, you go to a wedding and people say thank you
52:38
to so and so. Who flew in from Finland?
52:40
Thank you. So, you know, even at the concert I'm at,
52:43
you're an amazing audience.
52:44
Thank you for coming today.
52:46
Yeah, we we tend to have some gratitude for that effort,
52:50
but not at work. You know, I'm expecting you as part of the contract.
52:54
And you know what? Oh, too bad for you that now the commute is 50%
52:58
longer, 90% more expensive and riskier.
53:04
Too bad. Suck that up.
53:06
You know.
53:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's your problem, not mine kind of thing, right?
53:09
Clare Kumar: Yeah. And I think it's.
53:10
I think it's lacks compassion.
53:13
Yeah. And it's I think we're on the hunt for the hack.
53:16
We're on the quest for the quick solution.
53:19
And we really need to cultivate an expectation that people deserve patience.
53:28
To, to meet that nuance and explore.
53:32
Well what will make it work.
53:33
I mean, I did it, I created something called the Workstyle profile,
53:37
which is a free questionnaire people can take to help articulate the conditions that invite
53:43
your best work. And it's a precursor to a team program where a team can come together
53:50
and everybody on there has done their workstyle profile.
53:54
And not only that, they've had a conversation with another team member.
53:59
They introduced that team member at the meeting.
54:02
So in the process, they were invited to move from empathy to compassion.
54:06
The person doesn't have to speak up for their own needs.
54:09
So I would say, hey, this is Donna.
54:11
Everybody meet Donna. She's a person who is legally blind,
54:14
and she would benefit from these things when she's going to have her best work experience.
54:19
So it's not. Donna, come to the table and put your hand up and say what you need.
54:23
Which feels a lot like can feel comfortable when you're in the habit of it,
54:27
but it can feel all kinds of uncomfortable for someone with a new diagnosis or new
54:31
condition, or still finding the words, or doesn't even have a diagnosis to to start
54:36
speaking about needs. It's very difficult.
54:40
And so I wanted to look at a way that we could smooth the path and build compassion in
54:47
the process. And then we have a meeting where we talk about what's really necessary.
54:52
Well, you know, what our our touch points where we're actually in collaboration are
54:58
generally small points in the day and not every day,
55:02
depending on the role.
55:03
So let's get clear on what we actually really need and then back off and allow autonomy and
55:10
agency for grown ups to self-manage their own performance.
55:15
Their performance will tell you.
55:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
55:18
Clare Kumar: Right. Yep.
55:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Clare, do you have any last minute thoughts to share with our listeners.
55:25
As our clock is saying to me, we're almost out of time.
55:30
Clare Kumar: I think my invitation is to, in a hustle culture where we're expect to be
55:37
doing and pushing forward all the time and more is better,
55:43
all of that. I invite people to really tune in,
55:48
get clear on those values, get clear on what you need for your
55:52
well-being. And then from there, design your environment so that you can step
55:57
into those rituals that we talked about early on so that you can make your richest
56:02
contribution. Because my belief is everyone deserves a fulfilling life to be fulfilled.
56:10
We must receive. To receive, we must first give and to be able to give.
56:16
We need that hospitable world inviting our richest contributions.
56:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. I do agree with you on that.
56:24
And that's a wonderful thought to close on, and I want to thank you for having taken the
56:30
time to, you know, come in and I think our listeners would really benefit from this
56:37
interview in that a lot of us don't think of these things.
56:41
So I want to thank you for having come today.
56:45
And if at any time you wish to return, please reach out.
56:49
Clare Kumar: Thank you. Donna, what a pleasure to be with you.
56:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much. And you take care.
56:54
Have a great holiday and we will catch you later this month.
57:00
Clare Kumar: Thank you.
57:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you. Clare.
57:05
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
57:12
Until next time.