Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Assassination - Ep. 279 - Was Loran Hall D.B. Cooper? With Guest: John Limbach

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JFK Assassination - Ep. 279 - Was Loran Hall D.B. Cooper? With Guest: John Limbach · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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Man Movie and Joey Joe and job Say and Joby Joby and job Hy Drama
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Podcast, The Garment and You We Go and Here we Go. What's up?
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Everybody? Welcome to the show. This is episode number two hundred and
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seventy nine of the Lingam Podcast. I am Big Bad Bob otherwise known as
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Rob Clark, and along with me today is my co host Joey Scars Burrell
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and we are very pleased to have a special guest. I am so excited
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for this show. His name is John lin Back and he's wrote a book
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entitled Where Was Skip, which you can find in our description links where you
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can buy the book. I'm sure it was on Amazon and some probably a
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couple other places. And that's what we're going to talk to him about today.
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So John, Welcome to the show, sir. How are you?
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Thanks, Rob, Triple B and joe By. It's great to be with
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you, guys. I was so stoked when I got you. You tracked
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me down through my LinkedIn profile. I said, Hey, do you want
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to come on our show? And I was really excited. I actually shared
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with you Rob over the or maybe on Friday over the weekend that I've actually
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watched some of your stuff just to learn more about Jerry Hemming and here at
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Weisberg and those things. So you were like, hey, I do this
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podcast, and I'm like, yeah, I know exactly. I don't know
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you guys, but I know your podcast. And I'm also excited to be
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meeting you guys because i think I'm gonna learn a lot today as well too.
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So much of what I was trying to do originally with this book was
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about the dB Cooper hijacking, and then because of meeting a gentleman we'll talk
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about called John Pappas and Morin Hall's potential involvement and I believe his involvement in
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the Kennedy assassination. That I just took me on a crazy journey and this
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is part of it. I'm going with the flow and I'm really enjoying it,
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and you know, publishing a book for the first time, working with
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Kindall and ebooks and Amazon, so it's just been a title wave and I'm
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really excited to be here. So thank you for having me on. Yeah,
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dude, it's our pleasure, totally. Yeah. I saw this correlation.
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One of my listeners sent it to me and they were like kind of
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in a joking manner, They're like, can you believe this? Look what
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somebody's saying, Skip Paul with dB Cooper. And the more I looked at
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debt and I finally the description to Amazon and I read a little bit more
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about it, and I was like, you know what, when you read
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and listen to the descriptions of dB Cooper and his mannerisms, his physical description,
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you know, the more I thought in my head, you know what,
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this might not be too far off, you know what I'm saying.
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And so I was like, man, I got to talk to this guy,
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so we're gonna have him on the show. So John, just let
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everybody know kind of what got you interested in the dB Cooper case or the
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Kennedy assassination or what peatched your interest first, and maybe, sir before give
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a little like thirty thousand feet overview on the dB Cooper case for people that
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might not be aware, because, like I said, this is a JFK
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pop, like Rob's a JFK podcast, not everyone might be aware of this
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story. Coincidentally, Rob, two years ago, when we were before we
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started on our research journey that eventually led us to present hing at lancer.
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He goes, you got to check out this dB Cooper story mystery, and
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I got really interested in it and watched like probably a dozen documentaries, maybe
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more. And so, yeah, I grew up as a little kid.
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I wasn't born yet when Kennedy was assassinated, but I grew up with this
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time life kind of retrospective of the assassination. So I had pictures of the
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newspaper covers from Dallas that said President assassinated. And I'm an older guy.
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We didn't have internet, we didn't have anything. You had magazines and books
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and you read them over and over again. And I would sit and just
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page through that thing and see the little picture of John John saluting and playing
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under JFK's death. So I grew up with it. My mom met John
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Kennedy and Racine, Wisconsin when he was campaigning through Wisconsin, and he went
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up to the line, shook her hand. He said, what do you
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do for a living? She said, I'm a school teacher, and he
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said, I wish I had school teachers that look like you when I was
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a kid. Said that to my mom. So she still tells that story.
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She's eighty four years old now and you know, so I grew up
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with it, obviously with Kennedy, but then didn't really focus on the Kennedy
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assassination. Like every kid you grow up reading your school textbooks that say a
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lone gun and named Lee Harvey Oswald shot John Kennedy and a crazy guy named
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Jack Ruby killed him. Wrap it, wrap that page and move on to
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the next page of this story. Yeah, and so it's really interesting to
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me the paradox of kids going through school, and I guess I'm old.
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I still say textbooks. I know my college kids have to buy textbooks.
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But you know, you look at Gallup doing that survey in November for the
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sixtieth anniversary. Only twenty nine percent of adult American surveyed because they do that
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survey every year, believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Yet the history
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books still say Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and Jack Ruby was this kind that
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killed him. So it's really interesting. I know you guys have committed over
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ten years now to doing this podcast and working on this that I did feel
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as I got more involved, morphed this book morphed into half being about the
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Kennedy assassination that if I was going to do anything to make a contribution,
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it would be to want to correct the historical record, or at least give
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the evidence that I was able to put together and dig up about Lauren Hall
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being potentially involved in the Kennedy assassination. Now bringing the voice of the youngest
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child of his second wife, who was sixteen to night was nineteen years old
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at the time of the Kennedy assassination. What I learned from him about Hall's
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alibi that day, What I then researched going into Harold Weissberg's personal letters with
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an investigator that he had looking into Hall in Kernville, California. And how
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when you juxtapose Hall's alibi with people like Roy Payne, Dick Hathcock, and
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Jerry Hemming who say he was in Dallas or Lester Logue told you know that
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he was in Dallas. That I have a chapter in this book called Bye
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Bye JFK Alibi because I ruined the book referred to Don McClain song Bye by
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this American pie. And in the chapter of this book, I literally an
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outline format go through each point of Hall's alibi for the day of the assassination
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with factual evidence that contradicts it. And then I look at those that actually
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testify, testified to the HSCA. You know, we did affidavits interviews with
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the FBI that put Hall in Dallas. I don't know how you can read
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that chapter and conclude anything else that. And then and then have John Pappas,
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who was this nineteen year old boy at the time, say I know
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where I was, I know where my brother was, I know where my
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mom was. And Skip Hall was not in California that day. And you
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know, he tells me that directly, and I'm able to add that with
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to this outline to paint a picture of whether or not Skip Hall was involved
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directly in the killing of the president. I'm one hundred percent confident that he
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was in Dallas, Texas that day. So anyways, to get back to
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your question, Joe, I apologize if I'm rambling you guys cut me off
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and let me know you did. As far as Cooper, I got back
8:16
into it. You know, I grew up loving Star Trek in Doctor Spock.
8:20
And when Doctor Spock does another show called in Search of and tells you
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about this dB Cooper guy that hijacked the plane, it's mister Spock telling you,
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and he's logical, right, He's not going to lie to you,
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so he's going to tell you exactly what happened. And I remember watching that.
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You know, I was five years old when Dbie Cooper on November twenty
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fourth, Thanksgiving Eve, nineteen seventy one hijack flight Northwest Orient flight three oh
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five. So to answer your question, Joe, just to give the thirty
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thousand foot view, and it's actually the fifteen thousand or ten thousand foot view
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because Cooper instructed the pilots to fly at an altitude so that there would would
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be there wouldn't be the pressurization issues if he jumped out of the airplane.
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But at about two o'clock in the afternoon on November twenty one, nineteen or
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November twenty fourth, nineteen seventy one, a man walked into PDX Portland International
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Airport, went up to the ticket counter. And for those of you that
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might not be as old as me back in the day, that's like going
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into a bus station today or going into a movie theater to buy a ticket.
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You didn't have to show ID, you didn't have to walk through any
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metal detectors. He just basically walked up to the counter and said, Hey,
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I want to get a ticket to Seattle. The price of his ticket
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was twenty dollars. He pulled out a twenty dollars bill, paid twenty dollars.
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The man at the counter asked him what his name was. He said,
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Dan Cooper. The man wrote Dan Cooper on the ticket, handed it
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to him. He went and waited at the terminal. When flight three oh
9:50
five was ready to take off, passengers actually went downstairs and walked out onto
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the concrete tarmac, because that's how you got into planes back then, before
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we all had these jetways that we walked onto and the back of the plane
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actually had stairs on the seven to twenty seven, which, if you think
10:07
about it, if you were going to plan to jump out of an airplane,
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you don't want to jump out of the side door and potentially get sucked
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into the engine. So there was a purpose to picking a seven twenty seven
10:16
as the airplane for this hijacking that if your intent was to jump out of
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it, you actually had rear stairs and as you would exit the aircraft,
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you would be behind the plane below the engines and have a free fall triple
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b as you probably know seven twenty sevens were used in laos without people knowing
10:33
it by Air America and other covert things. And obviously there were other airplanes
10:39
that had rear stairs made here in the United States and overseas, but as
10:45
far as commercial aircraft, it was a very rare thing back in the seventies
10:48
to have a rear stair. So at about three o'clock, this man wants
10:54
to be the last one to walk onto the airplane for what we now know
10:58
obvious reasons. He's described as being about five feet ten to six feet tall,
11:03
black hair, wearing a black trench coat suit, a thin black tie,
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carrying an anti shaitcase and a small bag. He sits in the last
11:16
row, the middle row on the right side, and a young college kid
11:22
comes running on to get on the plane, probably not to Dan Cooper's probably
11:26
dismay. And he's the last one to get on and sits in the row
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right across room. And his name is Bill Mitchell, and I've met Bill.
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But so this college kid's going home for Thanksgiving weekend. He sprawls his
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homework out. He's doing homework on the plane. The plane is taxing.
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The flight attendant in the rear of the plan. Her name is Florn Schaffner.
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She says, would you like something to drink? He orders a bourbon
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in seven. She brings him his drink. He spills it, so we
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don't know if he did that on purpose to not drink it or actually spilled
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it. And then as the plane is about to take off, he hands
12:00
her a note. Now it was not uncommon back in the day because the
12:03
women who worked as flight attendants and back then called stewardesses had to look a
12:09
certain way, they had to dress a certain way, they had to sign
12:11
contracts on how they appeared, what their weight was, and they were purposely
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meant to be attractive to male passengers to try to make airfare something even more
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attractive for a man to want to take a flight from Portland to seattle them
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potentially drive. She thought he was hitting on her, so she took the
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note, put in her pocket and went back to sit down. He turned
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back to her and said, miss I need you to read that note.
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She pulls the note out, looks at it and says, miss I have
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a bomb. I want you to come and sit with me. So she
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says to him, is this real? He nods yes. She comes and
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sits next to him. He has the briefcase now sitting closest to the window.
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In row eighteen. There was no window, which we think is another
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thing that he wanted to have so that no one from the outside I could
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potentially see him. He opens it up to display a bomb. Now we
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don't know if it's real, We don't know if it's fake. But it
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had what appeared to be eight dynamite sticks with red tape, a large D
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cell cylindrical battery, kind of like the size of a bottle of water or
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a taller can of beer or soda, nine volt. And he was holding
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a wire and said, if I actually touched this wire here, the plane's
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going to blow up. So he tells her his demands and she writes them
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down. He wants two front and two back parachutes. He wants two hundred
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thousand dollars delivered. He wants it there by the time they land in Seattle,
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and he will release the passengers if he gets that informa if he gets
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that, so she calls the middle flight attent. There were three flight attendants
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on the flight. They kind of did the business section the middle of the
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plane and in the back of the plane. Floren Shafter was in the back,
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Tina Muckle in the middle, Alice hancocky in the front. She calls
14:03
Tina back, and Tina ends up kind of being more known for the dB
14:07
Cooper case because she spent the most time in these five hours that dbe Cooper
14:11
lived. Florence goes up to the cockpit with a note, and Florence has
14:16
kind of shaken up, and they actually make her stay there. So Tina
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is this very very young woman who ends up spending the most time with Cooper.
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She likes the cigarettes for him. She takes future demands to the front
14:28
or calls them up. They negotiate where they're going to later, but the
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plane takes off. They're in the air. The pilots let the passengers know
14:39
that they have a slight mechanical difficulty, saying that they need to burn off
14:43
feel. But this gives the FBI time to get parachutes from a Court Air
14:46
Force Base and Tacoma and the money from Sea Tag or a Sea First bank,
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and they bring it to PDX. It's brought on the plane. The
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passengers are allowed the plane. They didn't talk about where they're going. Cooper
15:03
says he wants to go to Mexico City or someplace in Mexico. They get
15:07
back to him and say based on the and he gives demands. He wants
15:11
the plane to fly with the flaps at fifteen degrees, not to go over
15:13
ten thousand feet. He knows fueling procedures, certain things about the flight,
15:20
and he wants the stairs deployed, the rear stairs deployed. At the time
15:24
of the flight. They tell him they're not going to do it. He
15:26
says it can be done, but okay, and they then let him know
15:33
that because they're going to be flying what they called dirty that they wouldn't be
15:35
able to get all the way to Mexico, so they're gonna have to stop
15:37
at least once, maybe twice to refuel. They agree on Reno. He
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says fine, and then he says, let's get the show on the road.
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They take off. They are flying on a path called Victor twenty three
15:48
from Seattle Tacoma International Airport to Reno, YEP. After they gave him the
15:54
money. Right after they gave him the money in the parachutes, that's correct,
16:00
and somewhere it's believed just north of about ten miles north of Portland in
16:07
Vancouver, Washington. The pilots felt oscillation in a pressure bump, and that's
16:15
where they believe Dan Cooper, the Stebee Cooper actually jumped out of the back
16:19
of the airplane and was never found again. So this Dan Cooper only lived
16:26
for about five hours in the world. Nobody knows who he was before then,
16:30
nobody knows who he was after then. And they did testing with the
16:34
same plane. They took it over the ocean and deployed things out of the
16:40
back of the stairs and saw that the stairs actually if you take the weight
16:42
off of it, kind of slam back up or bump back up and give
16:45
that oscillation pressure jump. And that's what made them believe that he first jumped
16:51
in a place called Aeriel, Washington around that area. The FBI then later
16:55
changed that to believe that it was this Battleground Orchards area, which again is
16:59
about ten miles to Portland, and D. B. Cooper was never heard
17:03
from or seen ever again. For that there was a criminal that who was
17:08
called D. A. Cooper, And when the FBI started looking for who
17:12
this if there was someone named Cooper, they looked in this DA Cooper found
17:15
out he was in Bend, Oregon at the time, had nothing to do
17:18
with it, and that's how the name metastasized from Dan Cooper to d.
17:25
B. Cooper and it stuck. So he's been called dB Cooper ever since
17:29
then, even though he gave his name is Dan Cooper on the plane and
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again never been found from ten years went by, and then in this crazy
17:38
set of circumstances, a little kid named Brian Ingram who's nine years old,
17:42
is on the Columbia River on the border of Oregon and the state of Washington,
17:48
a place called Tina Barr and Vancouver, Washington, and they're going to
17:52
dig a fire pit, and he's digging and he starts finding these moldy,
17:59
degraded twenty dollar bills and it's about fifty eight hundred dollars. And it turns
18:03
out that the serial numbers matched the dB Cooper money, and of course it
18:07
changes what the heck happened that you've got You had three this one bundle of
18:12
all these bundles of twenty dollars bills that ends up buried in the sand on
18:15
the shore of the Columbia River in Washington. Ten years later, and everybody
18:21
got really excited then, thinking we're going to solve it, similar to the
18:23
Kennedy assassination. Another five decades go by and nobody still knows who the heck
18:29
DV Cooper of us. Yeah, and just to show everybody a little bit
18:33
of these, these are some of the official composite sketches that were made.
18:41
And I know these represent several different ones throughout time. Some little small details
18:49
were changed here and there. There was you know there's five well yeah,
18:55
five different ones summer in color, colorized. So yeah, so just to
18:59
give you real quickly that that first one called number one was was just off
19:03
of witness reports and not the sketch artists actually working with any of the witnesses.
19:07
So it really was a template that was used so that when the sketch
19:11
artists actually started working with the flight attendants and the witnesses, they could do
19:15
number two. And then when number two came out, they called that the
19:18
Ben Crosby sketch. The feedback that they got afterwards was he looks too young,
19:23
you know. The consensus was Cooper was definitely probably in his forties and
19:29
maybe even mid fifty. And that's when they did sketch three, Sketch four,
19:34
and sketch five after them. Yeah, sketch five, it's like he's
19:40
at eighty years old or something in that one. I don't think that guy.
19:45
Right. Sketch five. Sketch five was what would he look like today,
19:48
back when oh okay, back again, like twenty ten. So yeah,
19:52
that was that was taking what they called the carry grant sketch and aging
19:56
it, saying that if he was still alive, he might look like this
19:57
today. And one of dB Cooper's, if you want to say, mistakes,
20:06
was not specifying how he wanted the money in denominations, which is why
20:15
they gave him marked bills correct of all twenties, which made it heavier and
20:22
might have changed the the dynamics of his jump because he would have had to
20:32
strap this big bag of money onto him, right, twenty two pounds of
20:37
money basically of twenty dollars bills bundled together. One of the weird things about
20:42
Cooper too, is he requested them in a knapsack and they came in a
20:47
Seattle first canvas bag like a Looney Tunes money bag like that we've seen the
20:52
cartoons, and Tinamucklow says he was upset about that, but he just went
20:59
instead of saying, get me a darn knapsack, and I'm sure you would
21:02
have used you know, foul language, but he just started to say.
21:07
He started to be like, well, I'm a guivers, so I'm just
21:08
going to start cutting the shroud lines out of this one reserve chute and start
21:12
using shroud lines. And that's what he did. So, you know,
21:15
he's kind of a guy ring the situation. But we believe the people in
21:19
the Cooper community believe he just really tied that bag up, tied you know,
21:25
shroud lines. He cut, you know, hundreds of feet of shroud
21:27
line and then tied it around. The other thing that he was upset about
21:32
is when he got the NB six parachutes, which were military grade parachutes,
21:37
which is another thing that most people that skydi'd want to bring their own gear.
21:41
A lot of the copycat hijackers brought their own gear. They're like,
21:45
wow, how would you like trust that you know, a parachute you're going
21:48
to ask to be brought to the airport is going to be packed correctly and
21:52
rigged to you know, your specifications that you would normally do. But Joe
21:57
to your point, he didn't have D rings on them, and d rings
22:02
are what you would have attached the reserve shoots, so when you put the
22:04
back shoot on, you go to put your reserve shoot, so if the
22:07
back shoot doesn't open, you can clip that on. So he was upset
22:11
about there weren't any D rings as well too, so he couldn't even tie
22:15
the shroud lines with the Looney Tunes bag of money through D rings. So
22:19
you know, however, however he did that whether it was this mistake or
22:22
not, Joe, you're right, like, we don't know if it was
22:25
a mistake. We know that when money was given to guys in Alpha sixty
22:30
six and JM Wave and all the stuff that was going down, there were
22:33
big there were big bags of twenty dollars bills. Back then, hundreds weren't
22:37
that known. So Cooper could have just said I pretty much know they're going
22:41
to be twenty dollars bills, or if this was some conspiracy, you know
22:44
they were going to be twenty dollar bills. But you're actually right, he
22:47
did not say, hey, I want these in one hundred so that it
22:49
you know, it weighs, you know, eight pounds instead of twenty two
22:53
pounds and didn't make them give him a knapsack or get d rings or anything
22:59
like that. So it's kind of one of those things where, man,
23:03
was this guy so skilled he just could have handled anything they threw at him,
23:06
or was he really kind of just a really inconsistent person, and that
23:10
he didn't mandate that they get it right when they brought the stuff on the
23:14
plane to him. Well, in addition to having to deal with the money
23:18
bag the parachute, he also jumped with the bomb or alleged bomb. He
23:25
did not leave that on the plane, did he? No, he did
23:27
not leave it on the plane. There's a thought that he just discarded it
23:30
out the back once the stairs were deployed, and if he did, you
23:33
know, it could be never been found. And you know, not a
23:37
lot of people out looking in the woods with metal detectors back then. So
23:41
but for him to take the money and the briefcase triple be. Most people
23:49
believe that he just tossed that out and didn't actually try to carry the case
23:52
and the money bag with them both. But again, we have no idea.
24:00
We don't know if those were flares. We don't know if those were
24:02
flares instead of dynamite sticks and he could have been dropping them to get wind,
24:06
you know, signatures and things as he you know, where he was
24:08
going to jump. Nobody and there were yeah, go ahead. There were
24:14
two jets circling the plane where they're not but they their speed was too they
24:21
couldn't go as slow as a speed that dB Cooper requested, so they had
24:26
to circle. So the theory is that he planned his jump or you know,
24:33
on that encircling and obviously the pilots and knew the drop of cabin pressure
24:42
indicated that the lower ramp was lowered, and then he disappeared. So the
24:51
money finding with those tracked bills twenty dollars bills in the sand and I believe
24:57
they were doing some type of reconstruction of a dam or digging something up on
25:03
the or was it they did that later, but so then found nothing more,
25:10
found nothing more, right, Yeah, So that that what's called Tina
25:14
Bar is actually in the property of Fazio, the Fatherio Fazio Brothers Sand and
25:18
Gravel Company. So think of like a quarry where you would have mounds of
25:22
sand and things like that. There also was based on the level of the
25:26
water public and private land so people could go on the few feet of Tina
25:32
Bar's beach and and uh, the Fazios would regrade that. The Fazio brothers
25:37
also helped to ensure the success van Vancouver Lake, which is right near that
25:48
property, that flows into the south of their property, and so they they
25:52
they did regrading of that area. They would put sand on that beach and
25:56
you know, not comb it, but flattened out. And yeah, who
26:02
knows based on from nineteen seventy one to the time that that money found in
26:07
nineteen eighty, how the heck it got there. I mean, you know,
26:10
for most people, Akham's razor would be well washed up there. Then
26:12
we had people do what's called diatom testing on it, and the only diatoms
26:17
that were found on it were from springtime water and not what's called winter water.
26:22
So if it would have hit that water in November and washed onto the
26:26
beach, you would have winter diatoms and they're not on there. So,
26:27
I mean, the science that people have done on this is quite extensive,
26:32
but nobody knows. Nobody knows if he Some people believe he no pulled and
26:36
splatted somewhere and the money ended up there. Some people believe he got wrapped
26:40
up in a shoot. Some people believe he may have landed in you know,
26:44
water somehow and the money got there that way and he didn't survive.
26:49
Do you think he brought to your point earlier? Do you think he brought
26:53
his own shoot despite requesting for no? No, I do not. He
27:00
had a bag with him, but it was probably the size of a small
27:03
grocery bag, so certainly not big enough to have his own gear to strap
27:07
over his shoulders and do that. He may have had goggle. I mean,
27:11
he had sunglasses and large sunglasses. He was supposedly wearing like loafers.
27:22
And you know, if you're jumping out you're going to use a twenty four
27:25
to twenty eight foot military parachute, you'd kind of want to have Corcoran boots
27:29
or something that if you're going to land, you're not going to blow your
27:32
ankles or your knees out. But we don't know if he had those type
27:34
of boots where you know, the top is floppy, the letters floppy,
27:37
so it could just flop over it. You could put them in the bottom
27:40
of a of a small bag. And you know, did he have gloves
27:42
in there as well too. One of the misnomers is that the weather it
27:48
was this stormy, stormy night. And while the weather wasn't great and it
27:51
was overclassed in cloudy and there was some gusting of wind, it was more
27:55
light rain and it wasn't like I think people think, you know, Dbe
27:57
Cooper jumped out and you know, a hurricane into the Yukon, And it's
28:03
no. Dbe Cooper jumped down into not optimal weather conditions. But once he
28:07
would get through a cloud layer, he'd be able to see the lights of
28:10
Portland. And you know, he was more towards a residential area of about
28:15
one hundred thousand people than up into the mountains and wooded area north of Ariel
28:21
at that time as well. Excellent, all right, so let's let's get
28:25
into how Lauren Hall enters the picture as a potential dB Cooper suspect. So
28:36
back in the sixties, late fifties, early sixties, we know he was
28:41
imprisoned in Cuba with Santa's Trafficante and then some others. He definitely had ties
28:48
to people like that. Some of these mafiaesque type figures, these anti Castro
28:52
Cuban raiders, these or mercenaries whatever you want to call them, they were
28:59
They were taking upon themselves to run raids into Cuba to try to fight against
29:03
Castro. And he was part of the group at No Name Key with people
29:07
like Jerry Patrick, Heming, Lawrence Howard, Felipe Video Santiago, another guy
29:14
who was definitely in Dallas that day as well, Roy Hargraves. These are
29:18
serious operators. He went on to work in Operation Chaos and the CIA in
29:22
the later sixties. So where do you think Lauren Hall comes into the picture
29:33
or what got it in your head that he could possibly be at dB Cooper
29:37
suspect. So the one thing about Cooper that I really kind of clapped down
29:45
to was Larry Carr's kind of profile of him. So Larry Carr was the
29:51
FBI agent that came in and handled the case of dB Cooper from two thousand
29:53
and seven to twenty ten. Prior to that, Larry had worked on bank
29:57
robberies, very successful, working with people to solve bank robberies, and one
30:03
of the way he did it was to get information out to the community to
30:07
ask them. And I think the prior people that had the Cooper case were
30:11
very close to the vest, weren't going out there trying to get information from
30:18
the community. And so, you know, Larry's profile of Cooper when I
30:22
read it was you know that he'd probably served in the military, but wasn't
30:26
a parachuting expert. He probably had you know, some type of you know,
30:33
something close to policing training. He was probably anti social, arrogant guy,
30:40
probably grew up blue collar or was blue collar. And so Larry goes
30:44
through this whole profile and I'm looking at potential individuals for this. I was
30:52
also active in a community during the pandemic called the Forest Fend Treasure hunt community,
30:57
and I don't get into that with you guys tonight, but one of
31:00
the things about the treasure hunting with his grandson was, you know, they
31:04
talked about did Fenn use GPS? And the word Laura and came up and
31:10
more. Moore has been coming out about Fenn since his twenty years in the
31:15
Air Force. You know, he was a super saber Society remember through three
31:18
hundred and twenty eight missions in one year in Vietnam, got shot down twice,
31:22
parachuted out. Long story short, he comes back and becomes one of
31:26
the most famous art dealers in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and we find
31:30
out that he's associated with you know, John Connolly, Jackie Kennedy. You
31:36
know he he sold one hundred fake Elmer de Hoore paintings as face with John
31:40
Connolly. They doubled their money together, so you know the guy who sat
31:45
in front of Kennedy and this guy's doing that. But it's also come out
31:48
that he was Cia A Jason or in Cia and Moore will come out of
31:52
that. His family is going to be releasing more information this year. He
31:55
passed away and at the age of ninety at the end of twenty twenty.
32:00
But the word Lauran came up. And if you're thinking about it as pre
32:05
GPS, that's long range navigation where you have these two giant radio towers anywhere
32:09
in the world. If you pick two of them, you can find something
32:13
with up to fifty feet. And this thought was, well, did he
32:15
use Lauren for where his treasure chest is hidden? And obviously that didn't make
32:20
sense. So I would be doing these Google searches of just different words.
32:24
I would throw in and throwing in Lauren, JFK. Connolly, and all
32:32
of a sudden, this guy comes up. So if you want to think
32:36
where this book came from. It actually came from the forest fend treasure on.
32:38
As crazy as that sounds, but as mister Fenn would say, I
32:42
guess it doesn't really matter what fly I used and what rod I used to
32:45
hook the fish. I started looking into Laura Eugene Hall and went all the
32:50
way back to his birth in Newton, cansa little Newton, Kansas, under
32:52
twenty thousand people, twenty five miles north of Wichita, and then him trying
32:58
to sneak into the military. Have his card in the book from when he
33:00
was fifteen and couldn't get into the army, when he was sixteen and couldn't
33:04
get into the army. He finally gets in when he's seventeen. He's honorably
33:07
discharged within a year because he has an epileptic seizure and he can't you know,
33:12
they discharge him. So he gets into the Kansas State National Guards,
33:15
starts rifle training there, and within a year though, he's back in the
33:21
Army, even though his first his first separation agreement says not able to serve
33:24
right. So somehow he weaseled his way back in again and goes off to
33:29
Fort Knox and the next thing you know by night. The end of nineteen
33:31
forty nine, he's in ober Ambergau, Germany, where the US Joint US
33:37
European Counterintelligence training is, so he's going to school encounter intelligence. He does,
33:45
takes Provost Marshall investigations training, he becomes a military police officer. He
33:49
does plane clothes work to stop smuggling and contraband on the border. After the
33:54
war, he meets his first wife, who's English professional scheme in the Ice
34:00
Capades and brings her back to the United States and they end up having four
34:04
kids. And he also tells Congress because he actually relates this, and I
34:09
actually do in the book Joe and Rob, I do in one chapter,
34:15
I take the three hundred pages of HSCA testimony and I narrow it down to
34:19
twenty two pages, so nobody has to go through and read three hundred pages
34:22
of it. But he actually talks about all this service. He talks about
34:25
a nervous breakdown that happens because when he gets back from Germany, he and
34:30
his family moved to Omaha, Nebraska, because on the other side of the
34:35
river. He serves there with the Iowa National Guard, and he gets his
34:38
first taste of the casino business because west of Chicago, Omaha is the biggest
34:44
illegal sports book and has the biggest casino, and Las Vegas doesn't exist yet
34:50
at that time, and so he gets a taste of the casino business and
34:54
really likes it. But he's gone all the time, and they move back
35:00
to Newton where his parents are, and his wife divorces him in nineteen fifty
35:05
eight, saying she loves him, but he's gone all the time. He
35:08
can't hold a steady job, and Halden tells his parents, Hey, mom,
35:13
dad, I've got a friend in Miami. I'm gonna go down there.
35:15
Well, it turns out that the friend was the brother of Santo traffic
35:17
Conte Junior. He went down there to Miami to work in the casinos,
35:22
and it's before the end of nineteen fifty eight. He goes over to Cuba
35:28
working at the Capri casino for Santo traffic Conte Juniors group and starts to really
35:34
get into what he was trained to do again, and he ends up in
35:37
the mountains with Castro and Shay and he's going to be a Cuban freedom fighter
35:42
because Bautista has gotten so corrupt, even though the US has supported Batista all
35:45
this time, that Eisenhower finally nineteen fifty nine s is enough, we can't
35:51
support Batista anymore. He's killed twenty thousand people. He's literally just killing anybody
35:55
that is trying to uncover the corruption or is against him. At that time,
36:00
Hall is back in fifty nine in Cuba, but our friend cast Joe
36:07
surprises them all Hemming Sturgist surprises all those guys and says, I really like
36:13
this Khrush chef guy, and I'm going to go with him instead. And
36:15
these guys are pissed, as you guys know. And Hall starts training a
36:21
group of his own team to potentially go into Nicaragua to disrupt the communists uprising
36:30
there. Excuse me, and Castro finds out throws him in jail, but
36:35
also they say throws him in jail. But this is where you find out
36:38
that Tiscornia prison was what we would call in the United States a country club
36:44
prison, and he's in called a quanzt hut if you remember the barrackses.
36:47
He's in a seven to eight man kuanzt hut in this country club prison,
36:53
in the same quanzt hut with Santo Trafficante Junior and they're bringing raise of food,
37:00
lasagna is being made. Traffic CONTs its own barrels of wine in cases
37:06
of later there. It almost reminds you of the scene in Goodfellas when they're
37:12
in prison and they're getting all the wine and all these right, yeah,
37:16
and they had their own special wing. And ironically, I don't know how
37:21
many episodes Rob three or four, I did a little segment on Tresconia prison
37:28
and who was there, and you know, a lot of characters were there,
37:34
and that it explains it can easily explain his his association with Sentinel truffic
37:42
Conte Junior. And I'm sure they hit it off there as there was not
37:47
much to do except for eat and talk. So I think the two biggest
37:52
things that I took from that time is that Hemming actually comes there, and
37:57
Hemmering is still in good standing with cass Castro made Hemming a colonel in his
38:02
army as the leader of paratroute training. So Jerry Heming actually comes to the
38:09
prison there, and Heming thought that they were scared of him at first,
38:14
like he was coming there to take them out. But Heming visited them and
38:17
then Rob if you recall, I have it marked. But there was at
38:23
the prison there they were also with a fack let me grab the window here
38:29
because they were with a British journalist was there as well too, and that
38:37
that British journalist said that they were visited twice by a guy named Jack Ruby.
38:45
Yes, they were both in that Kwanza hut in nineteen fifty nine.
38:51
So that's where my head starts to explode with all this gone. Oh my
38:54
goodness. And Sancho trop Conte gets out shortly after Ruby's visit. Yeah,
39:02
so they get haul out of there right away. So Hall was only in
39:05
there for about three months, and it was before policy changed on Cuba.
39:09
So he gets back before the end of like the summer of fifty nine.
39:15
Traffic Conte funny and what I found out was facing tax evasion charges in Miami
39:22
and also had a family member that was getting married down there, and traffic
39:27
Conte made the decision to hang out down there in prison a little bit longer
39:30
because he didn't want to get back to Miami right away what he could have,
39:36
which I think is quite interesting. So he got back closer to the
39:38
fall of that year, hung out a couple more months in Cuba, eating
39:42
his lasagnia and drinking his wine and the Kwanza Hunt going to a wedding down
39:45
there, and to your point, he could have left at the same time
39:49
hauled it. So yeah, that's the whole Heming. You know, that
39:53
starts the relationship in fifty nine, right, which is important because later Heming
39:58
is trying to make it sound like he didn't even know Hall until sixty three
40:01
like that, because Hall wasn't in down in No Name Key with Inner Penn
40:07
and Alpha sixty six and JM. Wave. Hall is back in Wichita meeting
40:10
his second wife, getting a student pilot's license because Inner Penn required certain things
40:16
like minimum of five jumps and all these things. That's actually what I was
40:22
going to ask you. I'm sorry to interrupt. You have to interrupt me
40:25
sometimes, so please do no no worries. We are big, We are
40:34
very interested in inter Penn. There's a lot of suspects in that group that
40:42
we think are prime suspects. Of course, we don't claim to, you
40:46
know, know who the shooter was or who was involved or anything like that.
40:51
But Hemming and Hall did not like each other, and you have someone
40:58
like John Martino who spent and you know it was eighteen months in the cube
41:02
and jail. It's the same one Trasconia. So it's very interesting that Hall
41:08
got out so quickly when someone like Martino, mafia related, was raking slot
41:15
machines during the Baptista era got out quickly, I mean didn't get out quickly.
41:22
Hall did, and now San Trafficante maybe said maybe I'll stay here a
41:28
little longer. Very interesting. Yeah, I agree with the whole Inner Penn
41:32
thing. To me, it's oddly timed. And the thing that struck me
41:37
the most in my research that I don't know about that I'm kind of still
41:39
looking into, is Operation forty. Because before there's any operation, before there's
41:47
a Bay of Pigs, before there's Northwoods, before there's Mongoose, before there's
41:52
these operations. Dulles takes a plane to Eisenhower that gets approved called Operation forty,
41:59
and the person who oversees it as Richard Nixon. And if you go
42:02
to Wikipedia and look up the Bay of Pigs, there's pages upon pages upon
42:07
pages of stuff. Right, if you go look up Operation Mangos, there's
42:09
pages upon pages upon pages and stuff. If you go look up Operation Northwoods.
42:15
There's pages and pages and pages, Alpha sixty six, pages and pages
42:17
and pages. Operation forty two three paragraphs and then you have to go down
42:22
and click on stuff to find out more. Yet in those two paragraphs it
42:25
says that Operation forty lasted until nineteen seventy and the people associated with Operation forty,
42:32
their names most associated are Sturgis E. Howard Hunt. So you know,
42:39
you look at this arc from pre Kennedy to Watergate and it's the same
42:46
players, and it's striking to me. You know that when you're looking into
42:52
Inner Pen and Operation forty, to me, there's definite cans there. You
43:00
know. Frank Fiorini is in that nineteen sixty one June syndicated article that goes
43:07
throughout the country of Jerry Hemming in the bush Hat with the canobies coming down,
43:12
where all these young men start sending letters to inter Penn saying hey,
43:15
we want to join you and take out Castro and be anti Cumanists. And
43:20
Heming has to put this form letter to go that's in the book. It's
43:22
in an FBI report that goes out saying thank you very much for your interest.
43:28
Just so you know where you're not affiliated with the military where the internal
43:30
International Intercontinental Penetration Force is what inter PENN stood for. And to be in
43:37
INTERPEND, you either already have to have military special forces training or you're going
43:42
to need to go to your local jump center and do a minimum of five
43:45
free falls. You're going to need to have your own gear, your shoots,
43:49
your reserve shoots, goggles, boots, You're gonna have to have your
43:52
own transportation down here. You're gonna have to have your own money because we
43:54
don't have any. And you know, this is this letter that Heming's sends
44:00
out to try to keep these kids from all driving down to the Florida Keys
44:04
and before you know, and that wouldn't be qualified to be part of entner
44:07
PENN. But to your point specifically, Joe, I'm very very interested in
44:15
the fact that Operation forty lasts all the way to Watergate, and I think
44:24
that there's more research that needs to be done in that area because I think
44:28
that has a lot to do with some answers on just to take a step
44:31
back, because we've never talked before. When you talk about the Kennedy assassination,
44:36
people are like, there's no way, like two hundred people could have
44:38
known about this and conspire together and whatever. I think there's chapters to it.
44:44
I think there's certain things certain people knew at certain times. I also
44:49
think there were very patriotic and good Americans post assassination that tried to for the
44:52
good of the country have it go away as quickly as possible, and all
44:57
those things. And so I don't think you have to have a grand conspiracy
45:00
where twenty people from the mafia and twenty people from the CIA and twenty people
45:05
from the government are all working together, because that is absurd. But I
45:07
do think that there's this blending together of certain chapters of a book that you
45:14
and I may know chapter one and thirteen and seventeen, but we don't know
45:17
what's going on with the other chapters of the book. And I really think
45:21
that more so explains what happened with with the Kennedy assassination. And I do
45:25
think that you know, whatever was going on in with the West Covina John
45:32
Birch Society with Laurence Howard being there and Lauren Hall, Jerry Hemming and that
45:40
group you know, then connected to John Martino, very tightly connected to John
45:47
Martino. I mean, Hall admits that he helped plan the Bao Paul invasion
45:52
that Martino went on. Hall admits that he was in the hotel down there
45:55
in Miami with Trafficante and Johnny Was and all those guys and they were talking
46:00
about taking Castro out together and he helped plan the raids. So the fact
46:05
that these guys come together, Oh, one other point, maybe you guys
46:08
are probably know more about this than I do. Certain parts of Inner Penn
46:12
get kept getting shut down by the by local law enforcement that didn't know that
46:15
they were connected to JM Wave down there. So that's when they decided to
46:20
say, we're going to move our operations to this place just north of Covington
46:23
and New Orleans. And that's when they get connected in with Faery and Banister
46:29
and Shaw and all those guys. So most people don't know that the majority
46:35
of Inner Pen besides Hemming's group, moves to Covington and is in New Orleans
46:40
and that's where Inner Penn is basically doing things nineteen sixty two, nineteen sixty
46:46
three at that time as well too. So yeah, very very interesting,
46:50
and I think Inner Penn certainly there are multiple people. As you said,
46:53
if you go to Spartacus or wherever where they list all those guys where you
46:59
see names in your life, like Fielder's choice. We don't know who,
47:01
we don't know who, but pick one and look into them and could they
47:06
do the job? Absolutely? Yeah. I always thought, you know,
47:09
whoever pulled the trigger that day in Dally Plaza it had to be either for
47:19
money, which these guys qualify for, or ideology, which these guys qualify
47:28
for. Because then when you start going after the Bay of Pigs, and
47:34
you know, a lot of these guys lost family friends, uncles, brothers,
47:40
and all of them blamed Kennedy for not sending any support. And in
47:47
the post Bay of Pigs, you know, you have the formation of all
47:52
these anti Castro Cuban groups and these mercenary groups who try to take it upon
47:59
themselves to take the fight to Castro. They figure, well, if Kennedy's
48:02
not gonna do it, somebody's gonna do it. And that's that's a that's
48:06
a very strong ideology. I mean to put it in the into perspective,
48:09
it would be like you know today, you know, if you believed in
48:15
an ideology so much, you know, it would be like me calling you
48:19
guys up and saying, hey, Joe John Man, let's get together.
48:22
I got a boat. We're gonna go over. We're gonna we're gonna fight
48:24
isis on our own. You know. If the government's not gonna do it,
48:29
we're gonna do it. Yeah. Uh, you know, we'll we'll
48:31
patch a boat together. I got a gun or two. Uh, We're
48:35
gonna go get them. I mean that that's that's the kind of thinking that
48:38
you know, these guys were doing. It's not only thin, but they
48:43
were doing the actions like and uh, to Rob's point, those are the
48:50
people that I believe most likely probably pulled the trigger. The people that were
48:58
so you know, we're so ideology so much that they would leave their family,
49:05
their wives, their children, their jobs to do this. It's something
49:09
that they believed in so strongly. And for me, that's the kind of
49:14
person that pulled the trigger that day. I don't think money would have just
49:20
been a sole motivating factor to take to take Kennedy out. But that's just
49:24
me. But right, I mean, I agree with that. I think
49:27
they all needed money right to live. But you know, one of the
49:30
things about Hall that I was really surprised that never really came up between you
49:36
know, the Warren Commission time and when he's subpoenaed by Garrison, beats that
49:39
subpoena but then goes to New Orleans and New Orleans and meets with him.
49:44
Anyway, is you know, Warren Hall. After the Garrison stuff is done,
49:50
and Garrison basically comes out and exonerates Hall and calls them a great American
49:53
and for coming down there is Larren Hall signs a deal with the National Inquirer
49:59
and Garrison is in a as well. Lauren Hall's on the cover of the
50:01
National inquir and says I was offered fifty thousand dollars to kill JFK. So
50:07
what's really interesting is in the spring, going into the summer of nineteen sixty
50:12
four, Lauren Hall and his wife who moved out to California from Wichita.
50:19
She had had a job as the executive assistant to the head of Cessna Airlines,
50:24
and so they moved first moved to Pasadena, which is interesting because right
50:29
next to Pasadena's Lockheed who's working on you know, the SST the bombers and
50:35
everything. Jet Propulsion Laboratory is right there. But they moved basically out to
50:39
CIA. Jerry Hemming Central out there where Engleton lived next to in the same
50:46
so Angleton lived literally like in the same subdivision as Jerry Hemming's two uncles,
50:53
and Heming met Angleton four times. Many of Heming in the book I outlined
51:00
where it's not just at Sugi in Japan where Heming meets Oswald. Heming meets
51:06
Oswald in Florida. Heming meets Oswald in New Orleans, and Heming stands on
51:10
the driveway of the Cuban consulate in Monterey Park and talks to Oswald there.
51:15
So I documented at least four times that Heming talks to Oswald directly. And
51:22
I had to listen to all those hours of Jerry Hemming talking to Greg Burnham
51:24
and aj Weberman, and you guys got some of that stuff. I went
51:30
I went deep. I went deep on Heming. And when you start piecing
51:34
everything you did together, you start to go, oh, man, you
51:38
whether you call him a handler or not, you know and and and you
51:44
know Hemming's meeting with Engleton four times, Hemington's meeting with Oswald four times.
51:49
I believe that really good people thought Oswald's endgame was going to be to go
51:53
to Cuba and take out Castro, I really do. I think David Attley
51:57
Phillips thought that. I think George de Morden She'll thought that. I think
52:00
Ruth Payne thought that. I think they thought they were bringing this guy back
52:05
who they had that wasn't a real defector, he was part of a plan
52:08
to be a fake defector. I mean, who defects to Russia, comes
52:13
back with their Russian wife and is set up in Dallas without either going to
52:16
jail or he had one meeting. He had one meeting when he got back,
52:21
and the next thing you know, he's given to de Morninshield, who
52:22
gives him to Ruth Pain and his wife is living with Ruth Pain, and
52:28
you know, all these things go on. So I think there was part
52:30
of the CIA that truly thought Oswald was being set up as a Communist sympathizer
52:37
that would be brought back into Cuba somehow and instead of failing to kill Castro
52:43
with the pills that melted in someone's face cream or you know, these multiple
52:47
assassination attempts, that they were really working to have Oswald do that. And
52:52
I think Oswald got co opted by this Inner Pen Operation forty group. So
53:00
you had the group of the CIA. That was his lifestyle. Where's he
53:04
going to live, Who's going to introduce him to people? Where he's going
53:07
to live, How's he going to get his job at the Texas school Book
53:09
Depository that Ruth Payne gets for him. But we're doing all of this to
53:16
set him up as this, you know, person that could then go to
53:21
Cuba. Well, I think they co opt at Oswald, and Oswald was
53:27
brought into if you want to call him the Patsy you can, to help
53:31
take the fall for the Operation Northward, part of Operation Northwoods that never Operation
53:37
Northwoods. I don't know if you guys are familiar with it or not,
53:39
but yeah, you know, it was this crazy plan where we'd have we
53:44
do all these things that would make it look like Cuba attacked us so that
53:46
we could take out Cuba, including flying a commercial plane as a drone with
53:51
recordings of screaming people on it and shooting it down and saying Castro did it,
53:54
or bombing our base down by Homestead some of the warehouses there. One
53:59
of the other things. One of the other parts of Northwoods was a fake
54:05
assassination attempt on US soil, and we would blame it on Cuba and then
54:09
so if you look up Operation Northwoods, it's all in there, and you
54:15
know, you have the CIA lifestyle part of him coming back De Morn and
54:20
Shield, Ruth Payne Attlee Phillips to get him eventually to Cuba to take out
54:24
Castro. He's co opted by the John Birch mafia, you know, these
54:30
guys, the Martinos working with the Inner pend guys or whatever, and becomes
54:35
part of this plot to Hey, we're gonna run to Operation Northwoods, Lee,
54:39
And the way it's gonna work is you're gonna get blamed as as for
54:44
this failed attempt, and then we're gonna get you out of the country to
54:46
Cuba and Castro's gonna love you there, and then that's when you're gonna take
54:49
him out. So, I mean, there's all these ways you could look
54:52
at it, but that's the one that makes the most sense to me in
54:55
regards to how this thing got chaptered. Like I said earlier, where David
55:00
Attlee Phillips said, yeah, he was one of us, Oswald was you
55:05
know, Attlee Phillips has to admit in his book towards the end of his
55:07
life, Yeah, obviously Oswald, you know was connected, but ATTLEE.
55:14
Phillips says in his book and at the end of his life, we thought
55:16
he was going to do what he did to Kennedy to Castro. And then
55:20
you have John Martine, knowing he's going to die, who gives his basically
55:24
his deathbed confession, saying yeah, and you know, he regrets that he
55:30
was involved in killing the president of the United States. And so whether people
55:35
take credit for things that they did or not, you can see how messy
55:38
it is and how intertwined it is, and how Lauren Hall could have easily
55:44
been part of that non lifestyle chapter of who puts them where he's supposed to
55:49
be, who trains him what to do, who trains him to shoot,
55:51
who trains him to be where we need him to be at the times where
55:55
we need him to be, And Lauren Hall can certainly fit that Bill is
56:00
being part of that planning. Yeah, and to your point, you know
56:02
the the rifle found in the depository was ordered by A. Jhidell and not
56:13
Lee Oswald. And you Knowhdell was this fictional Castro supporter who was part of
56:20
the you know, uh uh fair Play for Cuba committee in New Orleans.
56:27
So Oswald may have figured, Okay, well, maybe there's a fake assassination
56:30
attempt. This rifle is going to be found in the name of this pro
56:35
Castro supporter guy, and it'll be enough to where Kennedy would be forced to
56:40
do something about Cuba then. But instead, you know, it got his
56:46
aliens with paper thin and uh, you know, it eventually got traced back
56:52
to him. But I always thought that that was if Oswald was in on
56:59
the whole d that that's what he possibly was led to believe, right.
57:06
I think he believe that the yeah, miss you know, I think he
57:13
was set up to believe he was going to be part of a failed assassination
57:15
attempt, that he would be shuffled off to Cuba where they would open him
57:20
as with open arms, as a guy who tried to take out the president,
57:24
and he would be close enough to then take out Castro. I believe
57:28
that's I mean, I have no idea if that's the truth or not.
57:30
But with all these hours and hours of research I've done and looked into things,
57:35
I think it's weird that for most people that don't knowe with the Tippet
57:38
killing, that they found a wallet at the side of the Tippet killing,
57:42
Yet Oswald had his wallet on him when he was at the theater, and
57:45
the wallet they found that the Tippet killing had the A High Dell stuff in
57:49
it so that they could put the rifle order for him together. And then
57:52
all of a sudden, the whole wallet at the Tippitt murder thing goes away
57:55
and you never hear about it again in the Warrant commission. So that's it's
58:01
tape, right. Yeah, So there's stuff in here that's like I think
58:07
years ago, Like you guys probably know all these people that you really admire
58:10
because he put so much time. People are when they listen to this stuff,
58:15
they're like, you guys are wackos or the people that ten years ago,
58:17
twenty years ago, Mark Lane, you know, these people that got
58:21
pillared or pillaried or whatever the word is for asking these questions about you get
58:25
documents here that say there's a wallet found at the Tippet murder scene. Yet
58:29
he had a wallet with him, you know when he was when he was
58:32
arrested at the theater. What is going on here? And that stuff just
58:37
got brushed anything that didn't fit the narrative for the Warren Commission you know,
58:43
it's funny when you hear all these witnesses that we now have, like you
58:45
said, Joe on video or recordings, and they say, well, did
58:49
you tell that to the Warren Commission? And they say, well, they
58:51
never I was never called or they never asked me. There was there was
58:54
definite cherry picking going on on on who was in that report. And again,
58:59
I believe that there's a lot of good Americans who thought they were doing
59:04
the right thing by making this go away as quickly as possible. And you've
59:07
got Arlen Spector who was told there's three shots make it work. You got
59:13
Johnson giving the Johnson treatment to you know, Earl Warren, making Earl Warren
59:17
cry saying you're going to have the lives of forty million people that are going
59:22
to die in a nuclear war when we go to World War three if you
59:23
don't take on the Warren you know, if you don't do this commission.
59:28
Even though LBJ didn't want to do the commission, once it was decided they
59:31
were going to do it. I mean, he's so. I think that
59:35
there were really good Americans, patriots, people that wanted to do the right
59:42
thing in Bethesda for the autopsy wanted to do the right thing throughout the whole
59:45
thing, to avoid World War three and make this go away. But in
59:51
a way, how can you conclude anything else than what the gallop shows every
59:54
year that only twenty nine percent of the people in our country believe that Lee
59:58
Harvey Oswald acted alone. Yeah, yep, And I think that's one of
1:00:02
the many are one of the main mistakes that the community makes is that the
1:00:09
people who covered it up for whatever reasons, mainly c Hya Mode, were
1:00:17
possibly the plotters. I think. I think there are two different, complete,
1:00:24
different chapters of the different chapters of a very complicated book. You know,
1:00:30
guys at Bethesda had no idea what the howl on on. They did
1:00:31
what they were told. Yeah, all these photographs away, put these photographs
1:00:36
in and do this stuff. You know why is Curtis LeMay at the autopsy
1:00:39
what you know? You you know what's going on that that that all this
1:00:46
stuff happens. But I do believe that there was a large percentage of people
1:00:50
that weren't part of a conspiracy. They were number one, doing what they
1:00:53
were told if they were in the military or the government, and the whole
1:00:57
goal was let's put this behind the country as quickly as pop and you can
1:01:00
see how that strategy, whether you agree with it or not, works well
1:01:05
to not have the country going. Was it Russia, was it Cuba?
1:01:08
And US potentially getting into you know, a male storm of you know,
1:01:15
aggression and things that might have happened. But it's rational, it's rational not
1:01:22
wanting to get into nuclear war. And Rob and I have talked about this.
1:01:29
We believe or we I'll talk for myself, but we believe the goal
1:01:36
of the assassination was to prompt an invasion of Cuba, absolutely, and that
1:01:45
did not happen, right, And Yeah, a lot of people were in
1:01:50
their own especially the different agencies that cover their own behinds mode, and I
1:02:00
think that gets very confused, confusing in terms of yeah, they might have
1:02:05
covered up some things, but were they the plotters? Where they responsible?
1:02:10
They have fore knowledge? That's very complicated and a different question. I found
1:02:17
this very interesting being a business leader and looking at the financial side of the
1:02:24
Kennedy assassination. Of the four thousand books that have come out that if you're
1:02:29
on the side of Lee Harvey Oswald killed the president President Kennedy and acted alone,
1:02:34
you know, Gerald Posner, Luke Hog, the ballistics guy, all
1:02:37
these guys that get rolled out, you know, Vincent Buglioso before that.
1:02:40
You can make a lot of money that way. And you because you know,
1:02:44
that's the theme that has you know, like we said, was the
1:02:49
this is what we're going with and and that how hard it's been for people
1:02:53
like Growden and other people that have you know, tried to get the words
1:02:58
out what Oliver Stone went through, which you know, we think back to
1:03:00
nineteen ninety one. You guys were real kids. But you know what people
1:03:07
have gone through to try to get the truth out, I think is amazing.
1:03:10
And I watched so two things happened last year that struck me. And
1:03:15
if we want to, please direct me back to Hall if you want.
1:03:16
But two things got to me last year while I was writing this book.
1:03:22
JF came What the Doctors Saw came out on Paramount Plus in November, and
1:03:27
I don't know how any human being can watch that. First of all,
1:03:30
it's riveting and it's emotional, and you see these doctors who are professionals,
1:03:35
and to a man and the women that were there as well that day to
1:03:40
hear them talk about what they saw and then talk about Doctor Perry and say
1:03:47
it was a They all say it's a you know, entrance wounded, the
1:03:52
throat exit went to the back of the head, and these guys were there.
1:03:53
They're physicians, they have no reason to lie. And I thought it
1:03:58
was also interesting that I learned that it was thirteen years earlier by a British
1:04:01
crew. Reminded me of the Zapruter film not coming out till seventy five.
1:04:05
Here you had this documentary that came out for the sixtieth anniversary that was filmed
1:04:12
thirteen years earlier, and they're all dead now. But I was struck by
1:04:16
that. And then of course we had Paul Landis's book come out, the
1:04:18
Secret Service agent who was very close to the Kennedy family, probably the closest
1:04:23
Secret Service agent as far as taking care of jacking the kids. And he
1:04:27
writes this book, and I'm finishing up my book right now, going what
1:04:30
is going on here sixty years later with the Kennedy assassination that we have,
1:04:35
You know, the doctor stuff had been known, it just hadn't put to
1:04:38
get together that well like that production was. But then you have you know,
1:04:43
I can imagine if Cyril weckt you know, who's obviously probably getting closer
1:04:47
to the end of his life right now and hasn't been doing as many public
1:04:50
appearances. But can you imagine him doing his magic bullet routine. Had Paul's
1:04:57
book come out ten years earlier and having him and this I love when Cyril
1:05:01
Weck does the magic bullet routine. Can you imagine him then saying, then
1:05:04
it came out of Governor Connedy's thigh and went back behind Missus Kennedy and the
1:05:10
president of the back of the limousine. I mean, whether that's the same
1:05:14
bullet or not, I mean, I just was gobsmack that you've got an
1:05:17
eighty year year old secret Service agent who is very close to the Kennedys,
1:05:21
who's coming out at the end of his life saying I found this bullet between
1:05:25
the back of the leather of the backseat of the limousine and the crease.
1:05:29
And this just happened in November, right sixty years after the assassination. We're
1:05:35
getting these two things coming out, which I found astounding. Yeah, yep,
1:05:41
the old magic bullshit theory. I've heard it in person from Cyril Weck,
1:05:45
So yeah, it's definitely awesome. Yeah, the waters keep getting muddier
1:05:51
and muddier. But yes, let's go back to Halsar. Yeah, so
1:05:56
let's fast forward a little bit in the timeline. So we've hit the gear
1:06:00
An investigation where you have Hall and Howard and Hemming actually did a little work
1:06:05
for Garrison, not so much as a suspect, but more as a private
1:06:10
investigator, if you will, which is funny to me. And also he
1:06:15
was a consultant on the movie JFK, which is funny to me. He's
1:06:19
actually in it too. Definition of irony. Yeah, the cat is in
1:06:26
the henhouse, folks. But so you have basically them getting away clean from
1:06:33
the Garrison investigation, which of course you know was around sixty eight. It
1:06:42
wrapped up in sixty nine with a clay Shaw getting off, and then we
1:06:46
moved forward a little bit, dB Cooper. Happens in November of seventy one.
1:06:53
Right, so let's get there, John, Let's how do we get
1:06:59
Lauren to to Washington or Port or Oregon? Uh? In that in that
1:07:04
timeframe? And yeah, that that's that's my question. Where how do we
1:07:13
get skip Hall there and his associations with that stuff? Right? So skip
1:07:17
skip in so starting just a couple of years before Garrison, Skip and his
1:07:23
wife get this hotel in Kernville with a five bedroom home for forty eight thousand
1:07:29
dollars five months after the Kennedy assassination, when he says he was offered fifty
1:07:32
thousand dollars killed president, but to that hotel. On just early December nineteen
1:07:39
sixty six, the Kern River in California has one of the worst epic floods
1:07:44
of all time. And their little motel was right on the bank of the
1:07:47
current river and it gets washed away. Their house gets washed away. Over
1:07:50
one hundred RVs get washed away. The Kern River bridge goes out. If
1:07:57
you wanted to get from one side to the other day to drive twenty miles.
1:08:00
The person that comes to the rescue to set the charges to blow up
1:08:05
the debris and the old bridge, Lauren Eugene Hall. They let him set
1:08:11
the charges on the bridge. When we talk about demolitions experience and bomb making
1:08:14
experience, there you go after this, boys, Yeah, I got it,
1:08:19
boys, I'll climb out, I'll set the charges. I'll step back
1:08:24
right and so we get you know, post Garrison right. So interestingly enough,
1:08:31
one item that was left on the flight three oh five plane is a
1:08:34
black clip on tie with a white class that would go over because they used
1:08:40
to have just like regular metal colored claps. And that's the photo that Rob
1:08:44
has there where we actually zoomed in and did some clarification of that and that
1:08:48
actually is a clip on tie and that's nineteen sixty eight members of the Cooper
1:08:55
community looking into Cooper's tie that the FBI has that model patent number. Everything
1:09:01
came out at the end of nineteen sixty four through sixty five. So whether
1:09:05
that tie that's being worn in that picture right there to talk to Jim Garrison
1:09:10
was left on flight three h five would be insane, right if that whatever?
1:09:13
Actually, oh sorry, Robertmuten. Sorry, at least we have a
1:09:19
picture of Lauren Hall in a black suit with a white shirt and a black
1:09:25
tie on. Yeah, I know, he at least wore the suit.
1:09:29
Okay, Yeah, So now to get the type of guy that didn't wear
1:09:32
suits, but they did. Yeah, when they went to J. C.
1:09:38
Penny to ask about that tie, they gave them the make and the
1:09:41
model number, and they said this is the favorite tie of people in the
1:09:43
service in their street bus boys, waiters, bartenders. Well after the motel
1:09:47
went away, guess what Lauren Hall did. He was a bartender in Wolford
1:09:50
Heights, which is just south of Kernville. I'make Isabella at a place called
1:09:55
Duffy's and he leaves Duffies to go to New Orleans to talk to Jim Garrison,
1:10:00
where he's a bartender. So that very well could have been a bart
1:10:02
you know the tie that he wore while he's bartending there. He leaves the
1:10:05
Garrison investigation gets the money from the National Inquirer. I don't know how much
1:10:10
he was paid for that front page story, but dude has to be on
1:10:13
cloud nine. Jim Garrison has basically exonerated him. He's in the National Inquirer
1:10:19
in every supermarket in the United States in nineteen sixty nine with them blasting out
1:10:27
that he was not involved, and he believes it was right wing people associated
1:10:30
with Lester Logan hl Hunts. And he's done. Man, He's clear the
1:10:35
whole Kennedy stuff, right. He doesn't have to worry about it anymore.
1:10:39
But he's also doesn't have Jerry Hemming on his side anymore because they did have
1:10:43
a falling out, or at least publicly they had a falling out, but
1:10:45
I believe they did. He's kind of on his own for doing COVID stuff,
1:10:51
for whatever he was going to be doing. And there's some people that
1:10:57
believe he was got involved with fhetamine sales because I can't Nixon would sign the
1:11:03
law, the drug law, to make that a Class two narcotic. So
1:11:12
was he selling that. They had a little airstrip right next to Lake Isabella
1:11:15
and Kernville where if he wanted to fly and he had a pilot's license,
1:11:19
he and or his wife could fly there and fly back to Burbank into the
1:11:26
Los Angeles area. But I don't know, Rob. This is where people
1:11:30
in the Cooper community that deal with other suspects like Ted Braiden others who we
1:11:33
know were spooks, are like, you literally can't find anything on Lauren Eugene
1:11:40
Hall. Nothing nineteen seventy seventy one. He's a ghost. He's literally a
1:11:45
ghost. So we don't know what he's doing during that time frame, but
1:11:48
we do know a couple of things. We do know that on his first
1:11:51
separation from the US Army, his separation took place at Fort Lewis, Washington,
1:11:57
which became Fort Lewis Joint Fort was McCord Air Force Base where the parachutes
1:12:01
came from for the dB Cooper hijacking, so he knew to Coma. That's
1:12:06
important because his flight three oh five was getting ready to land in Seattle and
1:12:11
was circling Puget Sound and SeaTac Airport. Tina Mucklow, the flight attendant,
1:12:16
was having a conversation with Cooper, and unsolicited Cooper said, she said,
1:12:23
oh, they're getting the parachutes from the air Force base, and Cooper said
1:12:30
to her, well, McCord, if they speed is only twenty minutes away.
1:12:33
So that led Mucklow to believe that Cooper had knowledge of McCord Air Force
1:12:38
Base. Also, as they were circling around, Cooper looked out the window
1:12:42
and said, we're over to Coma now, and there had been no announcement
1:12:45
from the pilots. So she also reported that as he must have known what
1:12:50
it looked like to be flying over to Coma on Puget Sounds. So the
1:12:55
fact that Hall had been at the air Force base there is one important piece
1:12:59
of evidence. The other is that his only sibling, and what's interesting is
1:13:02
John Pappis, who was that young nineteen year old boy that took this Carcano
1:13:06
rifle that we'll talk about from Hall right after the assassination. But he had
1:13:12
John Pappis, his mom was married to Hall from nineteen sixty to nineteen seventy
1:13:16
five. John had no idea that Hall had a sibling. His sister,
1:13:23
Joanne, who was three years younger than him, also born in Newton,
1:13:27
lived in the Newton Wichita area, was married, had three boys, then
1:13:30
got divorced and married a Mormon man who lived in Snohomish County, which is
1:13:35
a county of Seattle, Washington. And that this man had left his wife
1:13:41
for Hall's sister, probably sometime in nineteen sixty nine or nineteen seventy And certainly
1:13:46
they were together in the suburbs of Seattle at the time of the hijacking in
1:13:50
nineteen seventy one, so Hall actually had his only living sibling lived in that
1:13:58
area as well too. So and then the one other thing, Rob And
1:14:02
I don't know if you guys are it's called the Lake Elsinor incident or the
1:14:05
Elsinore Ghost. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the story or
1:14:09
not, but this type reaction of the assassination and this is crazy stuff.
1:14:15
But in nineteen seventy one, the first week of December, a week after
1:14:20
the Cooper hijacking, a man named Lyle Cameron, who runs the Elsinor Jump
1:14:25
Center in Lake Elsinor, California, calls the FBI, and the FBI writes
1:14:30
a three h two report where Lyle Cameron says a man fitting the description of
1:14:34
Dbe Cooper came into the Elsinor Jump Center. He was wearing Corcoran boots,
1:14:41
he had Raleigh cigarette coupons, and he was asking questions about how one would
1:14:46
jump out of a commercial airliner and what the settings would be, and also
1:14:53
asking if Cameron knew of any jump centers in the Pacific Northwest. I wonder
1:14:58
if that's a Raleigh right here right. So here's what's really weird. If
1:15:03
you go to the Black Vault and look up Lyle Cameron. You just go
1:15:06
to Black Vault Lyle Cameron and look it up. Cameron was this crazy great
1:15:13
jumper, and he actually was the president of the US sky Diving Team sixty
1:15:16
nine and seventy. He took over for the guys from Paradventures who were running
1:15:23
the Gems Center before he did the guys who ran the Jump Center before he
1:15:27
did in Elsinor were on the TV showed called Ripcord from nineteen sixty to nineteen
1:15:33
sixty two, and Cameron actually jumped on the show Ripcord as well too,
1:15:39
which was filmed in the Los Angeles area and filmed at Lake elsinor at the
1:15:43
Elsinor Jump Center. The thing about Cameron when you go into his three to
1:15:49
oh two's in the Black Vault, and if you guys don't know this,
1:15:56
it's going to blow your mind. The day before Lee Harvey Oswald is killed,
1:16:00
there are phone records between Lyle Cameron and Jack Ruby. You can read
1:16:05
it right in the three O two's on the Black Vault on Lyle Cameron.
1:16:12
That's crazy that a lot of people forget that Ruby ended up working in the
1:16:15
fifties for Congressman Nixon back then and was out in California, So you know,
1:16:19
after his Chicago Detroit days and before Dallas, Ruby actually worked for Richard
1:16:25
Nixon out in California. About how Ruby would be connected to Lyle Cameron and
1:16:30
be have a phone record of a call taking place the day before that,
1:16:34
and then Cameron to be involved in the Dbie Cooper case. And then I
1:16:42
found a tape where Hemming's talking to I think it's Weberman, might have been
1:16:45
Burnham, but he's talking to Weberman and he talks about, well, you
1:16:50
know, the CIA trained guys at El Zanor and I had access to all
1:16:56
the jump cards there. And that's where Heming finds the card the guy who
1:17:00
jumps that works for the Los Angeles Time to take him back to Miami with
1:17:03
him because Hemming didn't want to pay for the trip. So Hemming gets the
1:17:06
LA Times to pay for this reporter at him to go back to Miami and
1:17:12
do stories on Enner Pen, which are the stories that all those letters come
1:17:15
in from the kids that so Heming had access to all the jump cards at
1:17:19
ALSINRM. John PAPIs this nineteen year old kid that haul handed a Carcano rifle
1:17:25
too, who's a pilot who I told you I think I told you guys
1:17:29
about he jumped at the Alzinre Jump Center too. He actually he said,
1:17:33
I landed hard on my heel once and my knee grew up, blew up
1:17:36
like a grapefruit. But he said, I don't ever remember talking to Skip
1:17:39
about parachutes are jumping. We just shot guns. Skid made machine guns.
1:17:44
You know they could. They would convert machine guns that were filled in with
1:17:46
lead at the end, take the old barrels off, put the new ones
1:17:49
on, take them to the San Gabriel gun range, sell them at the
1:17:53
Almonte shop, or put him in the van or the U haul and take
1:17:56
them back to Miami for the Cuban freedom fighters. And has said I used
1:18:00
to load thousands of rounds for Skip and put him in the back of his
1:18:04
trucks. And of course we know Hall got arrested in September by the Coastguard
1:18:09
in Miami, didn't go to jail somehow the day all got to go free.
1:18:15
And just really really interesting the connection between Lyle Cameron making this report to
1:18:21
the FBI the week after saying this guy comes in in Corcoran boots asking questions
1:18:29
about how to jump, and the same Lyle Cameron has phone rerecords talking to
1:18:33
Jack Ruby the day before Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby. Is
1:18:40
Now that's crazy, guys, I mean, this is it is. It's
1:18:44
wild stuff. So anyway, for your point of what Skip Hall was doing
1:18:49
in nineteen seventy one, I don't know triple B. I mean he's a
1:18:54
ghost. He's a ghost. You have Richard Nixon as the president now,
1:19:00
Richard Nixon, who has Operation forty. That Frank Sturgis is a member of
1:19:05
the Howard hunt Is back in nineteen fifty nine, and those are these are
1:19:10
the guys associated with the water Great burgery. After the dB Cooper and a
1:19:15
man named Najeeb Halabi who was the head of the FAA, and then that
1:19:21
the chairman president and chairman of pan American Airlines was in the White House meeting
1:19:28
with Nixon. And when that meeting ended three hours later, dB Cooper hijacked
1:19:33
a plane in Portland, Oregon. When Halabi was head of the FAA.
1:19:39
There's a video if you just do Najib hijack on YouTube. There's a two
1:19:45
minute video where he talks about as the president of Panama, how hard it
1:19:47
would be to stop a hijack or hijacking, and the pilot's union is going
1:19:54
crazy. The pilot's union is going back to the federal government saying, you
1:19:58
guys need to do something because were sick and tired of all these hijackings,
1:20:00
I mean hijackings exploded in the late nineteen sixties into the early nineteen seventies,
1:20:06
and most of it was take us to Cuba, right, and so people
1:20:11
involved in hijacking. If Hall was involved in some way as Cooper, there
1:20:15
would have had a lot of talk of hijacking during his time together with his
1:20:19
friends. There would have been talk about jumping out of the back of parachute
1:20:24
Planeshi Hemming even mentioned requesting from Inner Pan with Janway that they would have planes
1:20:30
with rear stairs so they could drop their cargo and jump out of the back
1:20:32
and do it more successfully. But there are people that believe dB Cooper was
1:20:39
part of a federal government plan to not have to go through dealing with individual
1:20:45
states, individual airlines and to just federalize it for aviation safety to stop hijackings,
1:20:53
and that potentially this Cooper case you like you said, Joe asked for
1:20:56
the money, Who cares? You're not going to keep the money anyways,
1:20:58
because it's just part of a a government thing to have a guy jump out
1:21:00
of the plane. All right, nijeeb al right, Dick Nixon, all
1:21:03
right, hey Sturgis, who should we get to do it? Well?
1:21:06
Hall lives out there, see if he'll do it. You know, it's
1:21:10
uh. Do I believe to do this? Do I believe in a big
1:21:15
conspiracy from dB Cooper? I don't know. The only thing I know is
1:21:19
nobody ever found a body. Nobody ever found a parachute. So if he
1:21:23
died, you know, some all have floated out the Columbia River out into
1:21:26
the ocean. Nobody found ever found any money other than those bills. Now
1:21:30
there's a belief that because the tracking of the bills might not have been as
1:21:33
great as it is today, that those bills, you know, after a
1:21:38
couple of weeks or months, people have stopped checking. But there were about
1:21:42
three hundred star notes in those nineteen sixty three and nineteen sixty nine twenty dollars
1:21:45
bills, and those are highly collectible. So you know the fact that not
1:21:49
one of those star notes ever turned up is quite interesting. But I represent
1:21:56
I think it represents some type of error or on the bill right or the
1:22:03
start. I don't that's a good question. I believe it does. I
1:22:10
used to be a quaint collector years ago. But to your point, in
1:22:15
nineteen seventy one when this occurred, there was no uh, you did not
1:22:21
have to provide your ID there was no security check. There were no check
1:22:27
checks for weapons or ID or or you know or anything. So was this
1:22:35
possibly an operation to enact those type of checks? And if you know those
1:22:46
things coming down the pipe, you might want to invest in a middle detecting
1:22:49
company X ray scanner companies. Well, I guess who got to make a
1:22:58
heck of a lot of money off that in the gem a lot. His
1:23:00
daughter ended up marrying King Hussein of Jordan, and he worked with the Saudis
1:23:05
for a long time, so he was already a really wealthy guy. But
1:23:10
very interesting that that Hall of all people could if he is a suspect for
1:23:15
this, he's almost one of the guys where it would make the most sense
1:23:20
because the operation he was part of the operator. If he's part of my
1:23:24
belief that Operation forty was this thing that stretched all the way into the early
1:23:27
seventies with Sturgis and Hemming and those guys. He's out there. He could
1:23:34
go to the elsenor Jump Center. He may have never jumped there before.
1:23:38
Obviously he hadn't met Lyele Cameron. And who are they gonna? Who is
1:23:42
somebody? That Hall asked, well, is there anybody I could go talk
1:23:44
to? About out here about how to jump out of a seven twenty seven,
1:23:47
and they'd be like, yeah, go talk to Lyle, all right.
1:23:53
You know he never met him, but he so Cameron. Cameron says
1:23:58
he came in wearing cork Gren boots, looking kind of Google geeky. Well
1:24:02
Hall, if you see the video of him on killing Oswald, you know
1:24:08
Hall could look Hall could look really different, and he could look like Errol
1:24:11
Flynn, you know, the first guy played Robin Hood, and then he
1:24:14
could look like this complete schlub. And it's really interesting to see the dynamics
1:24:18
of how he could change his appearance. Obviously take off his spacial hair if
1:24:21
he needed to, and how When I was on a show on Tuesday Night
1:24:28
with the d V Cooper Community, Ryan Burns, who's the leader of that
1:24:30
community. Now he's a Cambridge educated attorney. He was a worked for the
1:24:38
government, now he's a criminal defense attorney. And Ryan said Hall is really
1:24:42
one of the only suspects that meets the full criteria of the physical appearance of
1:24:46
having ruddy, olive complexive, dark skin. Who could pass for Cuban because
1:24:53
we know that Hall went around making money as Lorenzo Pacillo. He goes to
1:24:56
Cuba in nineteen fifty eight and says, hey, what will my name be
1:24:59
in Spain? And they say, well, Hallway is Casillo and Lauren Lorenzo,
1:25:03
so you're Lorenzo Casillo and that's how he got the name. But he
1:25:06
literally in nineteen sixty three he is going to American Legion Hall's He's going to
1:25:14
Knotsbury Farm for anti communists, right wing groups, and he's giving speeches his
1:25:18
Cuban freedom fighter Lorenzo Casillo and raising money and then grabbing as much arms as
1:25:26
he can and hopping back in with his trailer and heading back to Dallas and
1:25:29
New Orleans and Miami and you know dB Cooper specifically. One of the things
1:25:33
that I think makes Hall higher on the person of interest list is that he
1:25:38
could pass for Latin, which the flight attendants said he had a Latin appearance.
1:25:45
Yeah, it certainly sounds you know, the more you put these things
1:25:49
together in your mind, and like I said, before, i'd even before
1:25:54
I saw you know your book, the thought never entered my mind. But
1:25:59
then after that, the more you think about it is like, yeah,
1:26:00
this dude does definitely tick off some of the boxes, the major boxes that
1:26:05
we know can be attributed to d B. Cooper for sure. And if
1:26:12
he was dB Cooper, we know that he lived after the jump. The
1:26:19
question is how much money did he get away with? And of course,
1:26:25
as the Lauren Hall story goes, you know, we get up more towards
1:26:30
the eighties. There's there's there's not a lot of information until that entire family,
1:26:35
Uh basically gets arrested in a in a in a big meth making deal,
1:26:43
turns into Walter at the end of the Yeah, he turns into Walter
1:26:46
White. And uh, I found that, Uh was it not the trials
1:26:53
transcripts, but the deposition maybe maybe the deposition or uh the uh, I
1:27:01
forget what it's called. It's it's it's definitely a legal paper outlining the charges
1:27:06
against Lauren Hall and his family. Yes, and you know, it goes
1:27:13
through everything, and we know that he was found guilty and this and that,
1:27:18
and believe serve served some time and then and died not too long after
1:27:23
that. But you know, aside from you know, take dB Cooper out
1:27:28
of it for a second, the dude lived a crazy life. And then
1:27:31
if you add DV. Cooper into the mix, holy crap, John I
1:27:36
mean this. Wow, But talk to me a minute about uh, the
1:27:45
papists in this rifle. Let's let's talk about this rifle for for a minute.
1:27:48
What you gleaned from from Lauren Hall's family? Yeah, and I apologize,
1:27:55
yes, Igat just getting over cold. So thanks for me. So
1:27:59
you propa. I saw an article that I saw late last year that came
1:28:02
out in twenty twenty one, and that was by a man named Paul Tash,
1:28:05
who is the former chairman of the Tampa Bay Times. Paul was approached
1:28:10
by these two brothers, James and John Pappis, and they said they were
1:28:15
coming to Paul because they were concerned that there were still documents that you were
1:28:20
supposed to come out from Clinton's you know, ruling about the release of documents
1:28:26
and the Kennedy assassination. And then we went through the Trump administration and documents
1:28:30
have still been haven't been released, and now we're still waiting for the last
1:28:33
whatever these batches of documents are to come out. And James is now probably
1:28:41
eighty four, it was eighty two at the time of the article. John's
1:28:43
just turning eighty and they wanted to get the story out that, you know,
1:28:47
before they pass away. They want people to know that Skip came home
1:28:51
after the assassination and handed John this rifle, and so Skip would store out
1:29:00
large amounts of arms in these apartments that he lived at with his wife Anne
1:29:02
and then John and John's a girlfriend or fiance, Betty, who he's been
1:29:06
married to now for over sixty years. They lived together at certain times where
1:29:11
John lived with them when Betty lived with her family or other people there.
1:29:15
And you know, Skip comes home after the assassination and John had never seen
1:29:21
that rifle before. He had actually seen Jerry Hemming's thirty odd six that that
1:29:26
Hall had taken out of got back from Dick Hathcock. He saw that.
1:29:30
He actually said, I actually put that in the back of the truck,
1:29:32
that thirty odd six that has talked about, and so he actually touched that
1:29:38
rifle. But this was, as you said, it was a sportized nineteen
1:29:44
thirty nine Carcano I call Carkano. My recent people say Manlaker. Carcano and
1:29:48
Manliker was the name of the clip that you put the six rounds in on
1:29:51
the top and then it would drop out. But the actual maker of the
1:29:55
rifle was Carcano and Turney Italy and this rifle that Skip gave John is from
1:30:03
the same armory just a year earlier. And it's also believed that caliber is
1:30:08
different. That the Carcano rifle that is attributed to Oswald was a six point
1:30:14
five millimeter, and that the rifle that John has as a seven point three
1:30:18
to five. Now John got that from Luke Hogg, and people in the
1:30:24
Kennedy community later kind of snickered to him because they're like, you know,
1:30:28
if you're going to send a rifle to anyone. While Luke Hogg maybe a
1:30:30
great ballistics expert, he is all in on the single gunman theory and he
1:30:35
will not do anything to advance a theory that another rifle was used in the
1:30:40
Kennedy assassination. Now, I don't know Luke Hogg, and I don't know
1:30:43
if that's accurate or not, and so I don't want to disparage him since
1:30:45
I don't know if that's true or not. But John is still interested in,
1:30:49
you know, that rifle potentially being used in the Kennedy assassination. There
1:30:54
was one other thing in that article. So Paul Tash is the former chairman
1:30:57
of the Tampa Bay Times. He set up the Point Institute in Saint Augustine,
1:31:00
which is for ethics and journalism. So you know you're talking about a
1:31:03
top guy in journalism that wrote this article in the Tampa Bay Times in twenty
1:31:09
twenty one. If you do a Google search for JFK. Hall, Florida,
1:31:15
it'll come up in the top of your search and you can actually see
1:31:16
that article. And James PAPIs was a sophomore at UCLA. In an anthropology
1:31:25
lecture on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, someone came in and handed
1:31:29
the professor a note, and the professor told the class, I'm sorry to
1:31:33
inform you, but the president, President Kenny, has been shot and killed
1:31:36
in Dallas, Texas. And James first thought was, O, hell,
1:31:40
where's Skip? And that's where the title of my book came because I'm asking
1:31:45
two questions. Where was Skip on eleven twenty three, sixty three and where
1:31:48
was Skip on eleven twenty four, nineteen seventy one. But John also had
1:31:54
one more conversation with Skip about the Kennedy assassination, and he asked, yeah,
1:32:00
when Skip handed the rifle and said never talk about it again. He
1:32:02
asked one follow up question, He said, what's this all about? And
1:32:06
Skip said you'll find out. And the second thing that he asked Skip is
1:32:12
later was well, was there another shooter? And Skip looked at him and
1:32:16
said there was a person there to flip the switch, and there was another
1:32:20
person there to make sure the job got done. And he was not talking
1:32:25
about Oswald. He was talking about additional to Oswald. So that's the start
1:32:32
of the papist thing. And the other thing is is that in Warren Hall's
1:32:39
alibi for eleven, twenty two sixty three, he says he starts his day
1:32:43
waking up in California in Montere Park, California, and he drives his wife
1:32:50
to work. John Pappas told me he does not believe his mom was employed
1:32:56
during that time, so we have that directly from him in twenty twenty three,
1:33:00
making that statement to me, Hall says that he drove his wife to
1:33:04
work return home. And by the way, is there was never an investigation
1:33:10
or as far as I know, there is no documentation by the FBI or
1:33:13
any investigator that they talked directly to Anne Pappas Hall and that she cooberated that
1:33:18
Lauren took her to work that day. So there's no record of Anne Hall
1:33:23
ever talking about this at all. Ever, talking about the JFK assassination at
1:33:27
all, John Pappis did say to me, if that was true, my
1:33:30
mom would have told me that. So he said that to me directly.
1:33:34
Hall says. He then returns home, takes a shower, and is shaving
1:33:40
with the television set on when he hears that the president has been killed and
1:33:44
says that he hears that somebody is saying that it was right wing people may
1:33:48
have done it. Now. I don't know about you, guys, but
1:33:49
if you go back to Walter Koncrete and the Kennedy assassination, I don't think
1:33:56
within the first hour of it being announced on television they were talking about theories
1:34:00
on who may have done it, But I could be wrong on that.
1:34:02
I think they were talking about what the hell's going on at Parkland Hospital and
1:34:05
is the president dead and where's his body and what's going on. Hall says
1:34:11
he's because of that, he picked up the phone and called a woman named
1:34:15
Mildred Hyatt. And my research on Hyatt was that she was a very anti
1:34:20
communist person that was involved in the John Birch Society. So I think Hall
1:34:24
used her because he must have thought in his brain that she would cover for
1:34:28
him, but exactly. But later, a reporter from Long Beach, California
1:34:34
named Ark Kevin, whose name becomes known with Hall leading up to Garrison in
1:34:41
the HSCA, finally gets in touch with Mildred Hyatt. Later, not in
1:34:45
time for this to get out to Garrison or at the HSCA, talks to
1:34:50
Milderd Hyae and she goes, well, I don't know how I could have
1:34:53
done that. I was at my sister in law's house that day, so
1:34:56
if my phone rang at my house, I wouldn't been home to take a
1:34:59
call. So Arc Kevin, I placed that in my outline of Hall's alibi.
1:35:03
Hall then says he gets off the phone with Mildred Hyatt, gets dressed
1:35:06
up because he's got an interview at the IPCO Hospital Supply Company with a name
1:35:13
guy named Robert Hudson Hudson, and that he goes drives there, They have
1:35:19
lunch together, and then Hudson takes him to the offices and a couple of
1:35:24
their warehouses there. Now remember Hall was taking not just arms earlier in nineteen
1:35:30
sixty three, he was taking hospital supplies for the Cuban freedom fighters, and
1:35:35
I believe he had a relationship already and Robert Hudson was a trusted confidant for
1:35:41
them to be able to get hospital supplies to take. Interestingly enough, that
1:35:46
story Morphson who they talked about selling a car at lunch, which is not
1:35:50
what Hall testifies to to the HSCA. Hall says he went for the job
1:35:56
and then sometime two to three weeks later he started at that company as his
1:36:00
job. Hall crafts the belief that Mildred Hyatt and Robert Hudson are going to
1:36:10
go to Bakersfield or are willing to testify to quash the Garrison subpoena. To
1:36:15
say, part of what the defense would be for Hall is why would he
1:36:18
have to go all the way to New Orleans to testify about potentially being involved
1:36:23
in the Kennedy assassination when he had two eyewitnesses right here. The problem with
1:36:27
that is I researched the entire case of quashing that subpoena, and the judge
1:36:34
at Baker's Field never made it a part of the case that Hall had to
1:36:39
have corroborating witnesses. The judge in the Bakersfield subpoena case was just about whether
1:36:45
it was legal for Garrison in New Orleans to compel a California resident to have
1:36:53
to leave California to go to another state without enough evidence, and so not
1:37:00
only was Mildred Hyatt never called on. Later Hall says to Harold Weisberg,
1:37:08
well, he actually he actually testifies. This is in the book. He
1:37:12
actually tells the HSC because they ask him about Mildred Hyatt and he says,
1:37:15
well, my attorney told me we would only need Robert Hudson anyways. So
1:37:20
then later after this, Weisberg is keeps in touch with a man who lived
1:37:29
in the Lake Isabella area that Weisberg actually got to spy on Skip and Ann
1:37:33
Hall when they owned the hotel there. And his name was James Corky Hustin
1:37:39
h ust O. And because this gets confusing with Hudson and Hustin and everything,
1:37:44
but James Corky Huston. His exchanges with Weisberg are in Weisberg's personal letters
1:37:49
in the internet archives that I found. And actually, when Hall is in
1:37:55
the hospital for hepatite or after the subpoenas squash, Garrison sends an other letter
1:38:00
and knows that Hall's in the hospital for hepatitis. Right after the subpoena,
1:38:04
and it's it's this quirky that takes the letter to a PAPIs while she's alone
1:38:09
at the house. And she's really mad because he's passing himself off as if
1:38:14
he works for Garrison, and she believes he's been spying on him this whole
1:38:17
time because they've been friends. So she's very upset about this Corky husting guy.
1:38:24
But Weisberg has a great relationship with him. He was working for Weisberg
1:38:28
to get all this information in the Halls. And there's a letter that Hustin
1:38:32
sent Corky sends to Weisberg saying, hey, why do you keep saying Hall
1:38:36
has an air tar alibi and mentioning this guy Robert Hudson from the IPCO or
1:38:44
whatever the initials are hospital Supply Company. Because this guy is on the record
1:38:48
recanting and saying he would never testify on behalf of Hall. This comes out
1:38:54
seventy seven, seventy eight, after Hall's already gone to Washington to the HSCA.
1:39:00
So now you have Mildred Hyatt saying, you have John Hall saying my
1:39:02
mom wasn't employed at the time, skip wasn't home in California, that day
1:39:06
and my mom would have told me if he was. You have Mildred Hyatt
1:39:10
saying I was at my sister in law's house that morning, if you would
1:39:13
have called me, I wasn't home. And you have the guy who supposedly
1:39:15
had lunch with and went to visit saying that actually didn't happen, and I
1:39:18
would never testify to that. That's pretty I lay that out. With all
1:39:24
the documentation. You can find those letters between Corky and Harold Weisberg. And
1:39:30
then you have Weisberg sending a message back to Corky saying, you may be
1:39:34
right. I'm having my reporter friend and look into this. My recollection is
1:39:38
this all came from the FBI. But as we both know, the FBI
1:39:42
could be wrong and I certainly could be wrong. So then this guy,
1:39:45
this reporter art goes back and looks into all of it. And then we
1:39:51
have another letter, the last another exchange between Weisberg and Corky, and he
1:39:59
says, yes, my reporter friends looked into it, and Hall's alibi doesn't
1:40:01
stack up. That is in Harold Weisberg's personal letters. But back and forth
1:40:06
between this guy. Now you take that as let's just say, that's the
1:40:12
old testament of the alibi. Now what's the new testament of where was he?
1:40:17
Richard Hathcock and Roy Payne worked together on Hollywood Boulevard in this detective agency
1:40:23
slash pawn shop where Hemming in Hall had pawned that thirty six rifle and where
1:40:30
Hall goes back and gets it prior to the assassination. They both swear they
1:40:36
are interviewed by the FBI, They have sworn affidavit's, and they talked to
1:40:40
the House Select Communian Assassinations. They both swear that they saw Lauren Hall on
1:40:45
November eighteenth, invited him to an event that was happening, and Hall said,
1:40:51
I have to catch a flight to Dallas on November eighteenth. Hall had
1:40:57
said the last time that he was in Dallas was the first week of November,
1:41:00
and he never went back. So you have these two men who have
1:41:04
no reason to lie, in fact, they have every reason to not even
1:41:09
talk about this stuff. And they're saying that Hall told them that he had
1:41:15
to catch a flight on November eighteenth to Dallas. You have Jerry Hemming swearing
1:41:20
to the House Select Committee on Assassinations investigators and on the record many Times saying
1:41:27
that after the assassination, he called Lester Logan Dallas asked about Hall, and
1:41:31
that Lester Logue told him that he saw Hall the day before the assassination in
1:41:35
Dallas. That is on the record. That's not directly from log but you
1:41:41
have Jerry hemmingsworn under oath making that statement. And lastly, Roy Payne,
1:41:48
the second of the two men that I told you talked about getting on that
1:41:53
gets a call from Hall after the assassination and is upset because there was a
1:42:01
snitch in Los Angeles that the day the assassination called and said, Hey,
1:42:05
I know this guy had gotten a rifle from these guys. And so that
1:42:09
an FBI agent actually went to Dick Hathcock's detective agency on the twenty fourth day
1:42:15
after the assassination looking for Roy Pain and Lauren Hall. Yes, as this
1:42:19
figure prints were on the rifle. No, on the thirty six rifle right,
1:42:24
yeah. So, and what happened is Hall had that rifle with him
1:42:30
when he was arrested with the dextergien tablets by the Dallas police in October.
1:42:34
And I believe that's when they finger printed it. I don't believe they fingerprinted
1:42:38
a rifle after the Kennedy assassination, because how would that have been done within
1:42:42
a twenty four hour period that you're already looking for these guys. But we
1:42:45
can talk about that. But what did happen is Hall called the Pain answered
1:42:50
the phone, and Paine says, and this is in payne sworn affidavit,
1:42:56
hey buddy, you're in a lot of trouble. They came in looking for
1:42:59
me, they're looking for you. And Hall says to him, I was
1:43:01
in the lobby of the Hilton Hotel. And there's at least one hundred witnesses
1:43:05
that say was there. Hall was saying the Hilton Hotel in Dallas. So
1:43:11
Hall's basically admitting that he's in Dallas. He's just not saying I was at
1:43:14
Dealey Plaza. And again Roy Pain swears to this in an affidavit, testifies
1:43:23
under oath to it. So take what I call the old Testament of the
1:43:26
Alibi and what we've done to that, and now take Hathcock should call him
1:43:31
three h right instead a trip will be uh, you know, halfcock hemming,
1:43:36
you know. And and Roy Payne, obviously, I don't know how
1:43:42
anyone conclude if you get if the three of us were on a jury right
1:43:45
now, just a grand jury on whether or not we should indict Lauren Hall
1:43:47
for lying to Congress about not being, you know, in California, and
1:43:51
then we could bring John Pappison as a witness saying I know where I was,
1:43:55
I know where my brother was. Lauren Hall was not in California that
1:43:59
day. He would be indicted. Whether that means he participated in the assassination,
1:44:02
we don't know, but we can. I believe that what I did
1:44:04
in this book is to try to update the record, to bring all of
1:44:09
this evidence together to prove that Lauren Hall was in Dallas, Texas on eleven
1:44:13
twenty two, nineteen sixty three. Yeah. See, John, I think
1:44:18
when we're talking about the thirty I six rifle, I'm not so sure that
1:44:25
he had it in October when they were in Dallas. In from what I
1:44:30
remember with the interview with Hathcock and Pain is that they said that Hall came
1:44:39
to get that rifle a couple weeks before Dallas went down, so maybe like
1:44:45
the second week in November, and that the reason the FBI was there is
1:44:51
because Roy Payne and Lauren Hall's fingerprints were found on the rifle, which flies
1:45:00
that that rifle was found somewhere near d Lee Plaza or in d Le Plaza,
1:45:05
you know, on November twenty second, if if you know, the
1:45:09
FBI is showing up there because I think he I think when Lauren Hall and
1:45:15
and and and Howard and and uh those guys were in Dallas in October,
1:45:20
they had taken their trailer loaded guns to Lester Log's house and left the trailer
1:45:25
there and I think all they got busted for was the the drugs in the
1:45:30
car at that time. So and that it makes that sixth rifle much more
1:45:35
interesting to me, is that how did they find it then and show up
1:45:45
at at Roy Payne's place of employment, you know, the day after the
1:45:54
assassination, and then all of a sudden, this race, this rifle just
1:45:57
disappears into the ether, right, Yeah, I call it. I have
1:46:02
a chapter called the Smoking Rifles because they have that thirty odd to six and
1:46:06
we have this new Carkano, you know, seven point three five millimeterre.
1:46:10
I do have this in the book. This is directly from Dick Hathcock several
1:46:15
months ago. Since the men did not retrieve the articles, Hathcock sold the
1:46:18
golf clubs. On September eighteenth, nineteen sixty three, Lorenzo Hall came in
1:46:23
with fifty dollars and retrieved the rifle. Shortly thereafter, Hathcock received a telephone
1:46:29
call from Jerry Patrick, who was then living in Miami, inquiring as to
1:46:32
whether Hathcock still had the rifle. Halfcock told him that he had given the
1:46:36
rifle to Hall for fifty dollars, and this seemed to irritate Patrick to some
1:46:41
extent, since then Hathcock sent the receipt he received from Hall for the fifty
1:46:45
dollars to Patrick to to convince him that he had not that he had actually
1:46:51
that Patrick, to convince him that Hathcock had given it to Hall. And
1:46:57
then there's some other stuff in here. So that was an September that he
1:47:02
got the thirty odd six. But I believe you're correct Rob that that you
1:47:09
know, John Papa said he held that rifle. So I'd believe that large,
1:47:14
large load of weaponry that got left at Lester Log's house. And they
1:47:18
were somewhat lucky to the fact that they didn't get busted with all that stuff.
1:47:24
So they left that at Log's house. And we're on the way back
1:47:29
to get it, and it was Bill Seymour, another inner Pen guy,
1:47:33
William Seymour, and and Hall came back from Miami to pick up the trailer,
1:47:41
and that's when they got arrested with the license plate falling off the back
1:47:45
of their car and got taken to jail. They were in jail for two
1:47:48
days before Lester Loge paid for an attorney there to bail them out, and
1:47:54
they haul and stayed at the YMCA. They both stayed at the YMCA and
1:47:59
the next day I met Low to pick the trailer up to take it back
1:48:02
to Miami, and that is the thirty odd six was supposedly in that trailer,
1:48:11
supposedly taken to a safe house where a dentist named doctor Crockett lived,
1:48:15
and left in the trailer. Hall's like, well, I thought he would
1:48:19
just get it from doctor Crockett. Heming changes his story like four times on
1:48:25
that rifle. Heming at one point is saying I went back to Crockett's house
1:48:29
and that rifle was the only thing left in the trailer. Then he says,
1:48:32
I went back to Crockett's house and it was in Crockett's house and he
1:48:35
had given Hall one hundred dollars for it, so Hall made fifty bucks off
1:48:40
of that. That should have been mine, but Crockett just gave me the
1:48:42
rifle because he knew it was mine. And then Jerry Hall says, yeah,
1:48:45
Then I got that rifle back and I took it to Nick sold the
1:48:49
to a guy in Nicaragua. Is the end story from Heming on it,
1:48:54
because I think Heming, whether he and Hall hated each other or not,
1:48:58
I don't think Hall wanted that rifle associated in any way with the Kennedy assassination.
1:49:02
And so there's that story that Robert Groden owns the shell from on top
1:49:10
of the Dallas. Is it the County Records building next to the courthouse,
1:49:15
not the Dale text Building, not the Texas school Book Depository, but the
1:49:17
next one next to the jailhouse. So the County Records building that there was
1:49:24
a man working on. They were going to retar the roof of it,
1:49:27
and they're pulling the paper up and he sees something shining and there's a shell
1:49:30
rusted on one sign and it says thirty odd six on it. And I
1:49:34
think that that is another very interesting story that I looked at about why is
1:49:40
there a shell casing to a thirty thirty odd six, you know, rifle
1:49:44
on top of the Dallas County Records Building, and then of course John Pappus
1:49:49
with the carcano. So what's happening now with John is that I think they
1:49:55
were in stasis after he was kind of not given up. But you know
1:49:59
the past. The Tampa Bay Times article came out in twenty one, so
1:50:02
I put on my investigative journalist hat. I'm sure you guys can understand.
1:50:06
I'm actually the rubbers hitting the road and I'm actually calling somebody to talk about
1:50:11
Skip Paul as a writer of this book and have to tell them that I
1:50:15
think he's DBI Cooper and involved in the JFKs estimation. Right. Can you
1:50:19
imagine getting that call from a Yahoo like me? Yeah? So I send
1:50:24
Paul Tash a very nice email and I send it from my office so it
1:50:27
has my COEO title, so at least they know, like I'm employed,
1:50:30
And I call Paul leave a message for him. He writes me very nice
1:50:36
email back, says yes, I will give you a call. He calls
1:50:43
my office, gets on the phone with me, incredibly engaging, pleasant,
1:50:47
obviously very successful guy. He says, so what is this about? And
1:50:53
I tell him an he chuckles and he says, oh, yeah, skip
1:50:55
Paul, and then he says, can I call you back right away?
1:51:00
I thought that was interesting because I think he was checking on me to see
1:51:01
if the phone number of my business was legit and all that. So about
1:51:04
five minutes pass he calls me back. We talked for about ten minutes.
1:51:10
I asked him if he I had sent him excerpts from the book and want
1:51:13
to say. He said, okay, if I use this about your article,
1:51:15
is there anything wrong? Is there anything inaccurate? I wanted to make
1:51:18
sure that you know I wouldn't be sued after I print the book with copyright
1:51:21
to anybody. And he said, let me check with one of the brothers.
1:51:27
He goes, I don't think the older one's going to want to talk
1:51:29
to you, but I think, excuse me, but I think John will
1:51:34
And I said great. And my administrative assistant comes into my office with this
1:51:42
crazy look on her face, peeking into my window and she says, there's
1:51:46
a man named John Pappus on the phone and he wants to talk to you
1:51:49
about the Kennedy assassination. And nobody at my office knew that I was writing
1:51:54
this, So she's thinking, like, I'm not just calling her off,
1:52:00
But I said, what's that. I don't know if y'all can see that
1:52:04
that all that thirty six show from Groden's collection, right, They said that
1:52:10
show was crimped on one end where it could have acted as a SABO and
1:52:14
you could have put a six point five carcano bullet inside of that crimped it
1:52:20
and the shot out of a thirty odd six rifle could have actually had See
1:52:26
how it's crimped on one side on the end. Yeah, that you could
1:52:30
put one of Oswald's bullets in there if they had actually fired it into a
1:52:33
tanker in the cotton like some people think about the magic bullet. That you
1:52:38
could have crimped that in there, and probably one of the reasons why it'd
1:52:41
either missed or if it was a shot that went into Kennedy's back, that
1:52:44
it wouldn't have gone in far just because of that. But yeah, So
1:52:48
Paul tash John called me at my office. Our first phone conversation lasted for
1:52:54
over an hour. He was really excited to talk to me that I was
1:52:57
looking into this. He really had kind of I never thought of skip for
1:53:00
dB Cooper and really wasn't interested in that, and so I really I realized
1:53:04
that the relationship is going to have to be very transactional at first to build
1:53:08
trust, and that I was going to have to let him tell me his
1:53:12
story. And and we had some great conversations. He's a very engaging,
1:53:18
funny guy. He's a very direct guy. He would like apologize but then
1:53:23
say, hey, you got this wrong, you got that wrong, And
1:53:25
I'm like, bringing on, man, I want to get everything right,
1:53:27
So don't don't be afraid to give me the truth, you know. Like
1:53:30
I said, he's he's owned DC three airplanes, his own private aviation stuff.
1:53:36
He's been very successful in life, and he believes that Skip was involved
1:53:43
in the assassination. There's no question about it. He is convinced that this
1:53:46
man who married his mom that he lived with at the time was involved.
1:53:51
And he he's done really well in his life, so he doesn't need to
1:53:57
be like, this is going to be my mual ticket to try to prove
1:54:00
this or write a book or do anything like that. He's eighty years old
1:54:01
now, he would have done it by now. But he's very curious.
1:54:05
Based on my research and what I shared with him about what Josiah Thompson came
1:54:11
out about the bullet found at Parkland and the whole chain of custody of the
1:54:16
magic bullet, and we went through that because John believes that there was a
1:54:20
way to prove that any other piece of shrapnel, any other piece of bullet
1:54:26
fragment could be proven to not be from a six point five millimeter Carkano and
1:54:30
could be proven to be from a seven point three five, that it would
1:54:35
actually be worth doing the research to find out if this rifle would match anything.
1:54:41
And of course that's where I kind of don't. I support John,
1:54:44
but I'm not a ballistics expert. I don't believe in the chain of custody
1:54:47
of evidence in the Kennedy case. I don't believe in what happened in Bethesda
1:54:53
with the autopsy. So for me to have any belief that the bullet fragments
1:54:57
and bullets were handed correctly, and we hear about Paul landis now I'm highly
1:55:00
skeptical of all this, but I'm willing to go along on the ride with
1:55:04
him, and so well, my book is now out. He's grateful that
1:55:09
anybody who thinks he's nuts by bringing this up, he can give my book
1:55:12
and say, hey, look at the chapter on his alibi, and look
1:55:15
at the chapter on where he was and read about Skip in John's book that
1:55:20
just came out, and now let's talk about this Carkano rifle and what Skip
1:55:25
told me on that day and if Skip was actually involved assassination so he's been
1:55:29
talking to you know, we got in touch with Greg Aguilar, who's the
1:55:33
doctor, you know, the ophthalmologist in California who's doing that. I actually
1:55:40
called the publisher for Josiah Thompson and got permission to use the picture of his
1:55:45
hotel key next to the point a bullet that he's had in six seconds to
1:55:48
Dallas in last second. So that's in my book because one of the biggest
1:55:51
differences between those two caliber rifles of a six point five and a seven point
1:55:56
five that most people don't know is that the six point five is a bull
1:55:59
no bullet that we know from looking at the magic bullet, same armory,
1:56:04
but the seven point five Carkano is actually a pointed tip bullet. And so
1:56:09
we had op Wright and Darryl Tomlinson from Parkland Hospital talk about the bullet that
1:56:15
they found having appointed Tip and Josiah Thompson does us say what, and goes
1:56:23
back to Bardwell odom who's supposedly the FBI agent in Dallas, who was still
1:56:27
alive in nineteen sixty six when Josiah Thompson not only called him on the phone
1:56:30
but went down there and said, there's a nineteen sixty four document Bardwell that
1:56:35
says that you went back to Parkland and talked to these two gentlemen, and
1:56:41
they confirmed that photos of c. E three ninety nine, which is the
1:56:45
magic bullet, looked like the bullet that Darryl found that rolled from under the
1:56:48
stretcher, and that he handed to op Right, and that they gave a
1:56:53
secret service in Johnston who flew it and gave it handed it to James Rowley,
1:56:58
and Barbara Odams says that that never happened to Josiah Thompson. He goes,
1:57:03
I never talked to Darryl Thomlinson or op Wright about that bullet, and
1:57:08
if I would have, I would have written a three zero two, because
1:57:11
I wrote a three h two about everything, and he goes, I certainly
1:57:14
would have written a three h two about the Kennedy assassination and anything that had
1:57:17
to do with it. So what happened in sixty six is Josiah Thompson's doing
1:57:24
six seconds to Dallas and he flies there and he goes to meet with Tomlinson
1:57:28
and op Wright, and he brings a pointed tip bullet with him so they
1:57:31
can reenact the scene of Thomlinson coming off the elevator and going to the strutcher
1:57:35
and going to movement and this bullet rolling out. So they take that bullet.
1:57:40
They reenact the scene in the morning and they go back to their office
1:57:43
that they share because Tomlinson is the engineer at the hospital and op Wright is
1:57:46
the director of maintenance and security. Prior to that, in the fifties,
1:57:50
op Wright was a deputy sheriff for the Dallas Police Department Patrol Division. I
1:57:56
probably knew what bullets looked like, and so Josiah did the stuff with Tomlinson.
1:58:03
In the morning, they go to lunch or whatever, and they put
1:58:06
that bullet in the desk in their office. They come back and op Wright
1:58:10
is sitting there and Josiah starts talking to op right about what happened that day,
1:58:15
and they're talking about the stretcher bullet, and Josiah first pulls out the
1:58:18
bullets from the Tippet murder scene, and we know there's questions there and was
1:58:23
it revolver automatic? But Opi Wright goes, no, no, no,
1:58:27
those aren't from the hospital. Those are thirty eight So I mean Opright knew
1:58:30
exactly that those were thirty eight caliber bullets. Josiah pulls out CE three nine
1:58:35
nine and the magic bullet shows it to op Right and Opi Wright says,
1:58:40
no, no, no, that's not what the bullet looked like that Darrell
1:58:42
gave to me, and that we gave that bullet had a pointed tip,
1:58:45
and he opens the drawer. He's like, it's like the bullet that you
1:58:47
guys put in in this morning. It had a tip like that. So
1:58:51
my point to that is something happened that somebody in nineteen sixty four changed a
1:58:58
document or created a document that says that Bardwell Odam went and confirmed with these
1:59:03
two men that the bullet they found look like CE three ninety nine. Because
1:59:08
Barwell Odam is saying it's not true, Darryl Tomlinson saying it's not true,
1:59:12
and op Ryter is saying it's not true. And I wanted to give that
1:59:15
to John pappis not because I would know if they if a bullet was even
1:59:19
found, why would a fire bullet be in pristine condition where you could see
1:59:23
the point of tip on it. But I wanted to give that to John
1:59:26
Pappis and say, look, here's what I've been able to do about skipping
1:59:30
his alibi. Here's just one piece of evidence where the ballistic stuff doesn't match
1:59:34
up. And I'm not a ballistic sext where just this story alone has two
1:59:39
guys that worked at Parkland Hospitals saying the bullet they found by the stretcher had
1:59:42
a pointed tip, and the gun that you had, the rifle that you
1:59:45
have, would have had a pointed tip bullet. And take it from there,
1:59:48
my man. And that's what John is doing, and I'm helping him
1:59:51
out, but he is. He is willing to invest time and treasure to
1:59:57
find out if there's any way, shape or form if any of those fragments
2:00:00
that are in evidence. You know, NISS did all those high resolution studies
2:00:04
of them, but he would like to know if there's any way that it
2:00:06
could ever be looking at the lands and grooves on the bullets, if anybody
2:00:11
could ever prove that one of those bullets was a seven point three to five
2:00:14
instead of a six point five. And again, who knows if somebody who's
2:00:16
a Sabbath round and fired from the rifle he has with a six point five,
2:00:20
but at a minimum, he's still at eighty years of age. He
2:00:24
wants the country to know he doesn't consider it patriotic and he doesn't actually even
2:00:29
like that word, but he wants people to know the truth. And he
2:00:32
also wants people to know that if somebody ever wants to arrest him and go
2:00:35
to jail thinking he's a necessary for holding this rifle all this time, he's
2:00:39
like, yeah, he doesn't really care about that, but he goes,
2:00:42
I just want the truth to be out after all these years, you know,
2:00:45
was Skip involved, because Skip sures how made it seem to him like
2:00:50
he was, and he knows Skip was untruthful about his alibi, and he
2:00:56
knows he's had this gun for fifty seven years, and like he said,
2:00:59
Triple Bust went out to already and to look at it, and I'm probably
2:01:01
going to be looking at it in November at Cooper Gun. Yeah, fascinating
2:01:08
stuff. John. I got one last thing for you that could possibly help
2:01:13
tie Skip to the dB Cooper thing, a listener of mine sent me,
2:01:23
and I don't know if it's accurate, but you would definitely know Skip Hall's
2:01:27
obituary. Yes, I have seen the book. Okay, it says something
2:01:34
in there. Right, Well, I'll let you explain it. So you
2:01:39
know what you know we have. We have the breaking, bad and everything,
2:01:42
and he's supposed to be there's newspaper articles in nineteen ninety about his three
2:01:47
adult kids being sentenced and for prison. There is no newspaper articles about him
2:01:55
being sentenced. He was facing twenty years in prison and a million dollar fine.
2:02:00
My friend Ryan Burns, the criminal defense attorney who does the channel dB
2:02:04
Cooper Sleuth that I was on talking more about if you want to hear more
2:02:06
about the Cooper case and Skip. We recorded that on Tuesday on the dB
2:02:12
Sleuth channel. But he sent me something that he could get through his criminal
2:02:18
system access that Skip may have served eighteen months. John Pappus laughed when I
2:02:25
told him that and said, my brother and Paul Tash and I looked into
2:02:29
it and we don't know if Skip actually ever served time or not. In
2:02:33
the articles that came out about Skip, and I know Triple B you found
2:02:36
the AffA David and some other stuff. There are actual articles that said CI
2:02:41
agents captured and being extradited back and in that article, and I outlined him
2:02:48
in the book. The reporter called the CIA for a response, and the
2:02:51
CIA responded, we can either confirm her deny if anyone has ever involved in
2:02:56
the CIA, because we can't do that, and the CIA is not condone
2:03:00
any illegal activity. But this so Skip is sixty at the time, and
2:03:06
Skip passes away at the age of sixty five. So in April of sixty
2:03:14
five he passes away. And there's a small little paragraph in the Wichita Eagle.
2:03:17
It says Lauren Eugene Hall, Senior and is followed by Boeing Wichita Superintendent.
2:03:24
And of course my head exploded when I sought that because Boeing seven to
2:03:28
twenty seven. Now I think to be candid. I believe that was either
2:03:32
a gift or CIA, or he had friends in the Wichita area that set
2:03:36
him up with a gig towards the end of his life. I don't believe
2:03:40
he worked for Boeing prior to seventy one. However, I mean his wife
2:03:44
worked for Cessina. They both had pilot's license. He was in inner pen
2:03:47
flying around talking to There's two recordings of Lauren on YouTube that are split from
2:03:54
the same speech. If you do a search for Lauren Hall John Birch Society,
2:04:00
and he says, I am a Cuban freedom fighter and he talks in
2:04:02
what the voice of the dB Cooper supposedly had a low voice with no accent,
2:04:06
but he talks in that recording about talking to pilots about plane pressurization,
2:04:13
climate control. For his guys to jump from air is basically what he says,
2:04:17
or deploy from air. So whether Skip was Dbee Cooper or not and
2:04:23
worked for Boeing before, I think if he worked for Boeing, he might
2:04:26
not have gone to see Lyle Cameron and ask how you jump out of a
2:04:29
seven seven? The guy who the whole Lyle Cameron thing with Jack Ruby is
2:04:33
just nuts to me. But yes, to end it all. He passed
2:04:39
away at age sixty five and supposedly was retired Boeing Wichita superintendent. Crazy crazy
2:04:46
stuff. Well, John Man, we appreciate you stopping by. It's been
2:04:50
one of the most fun episodes in recent memory for me. Oh man,
2:04:54
Thank you, guys, Yes, thank you, and I am looking forward
2:05:00
to ordering this book just as a dB. Cooper and Lauren Hall fan and
2:05:10
fan are just they have major interest and an aspect of mystery to me and
2:05:17
Lauren Hall to me, we're definitely been the type of personality to do something
2:05:25
crazy like that. And Yeah, I think everything you said was fascinating and
2:05:32
I really appreciate you coming on and spending over two hours with us. Yeah,
2:05:39
I appreciate it. Joe, Thanks Rob, thanks for the invitation.
2:05:42
Sorry if I got a little long winded anywhere, but it's two hundred and
2:05:45
sixty seven pages with eighty images, so there's no way we were even getting
2:05:48
able to cover it in two hours. But I appreciate the opportunity. And
2:05:53
again, the work with John Pappas goes on. So if there's ballistics people
2:05:57
in this community, they want to get in touch with you, Rob,
2:06:00
to get in touch with me or whatever. I mean. John is still
2:06:02
sending emails out to people just a couple of this last week saying how do
2:06:09
we get access to fragments, how do we do certain testings? So he's
2:06:12
still all in on this to figure out if that rifle was involved. Very
2:06:17
cool, Ray Cool. We'll stay in touch John, I'm sure the story
2:06:20
will evolve as time goes on. And to pick up John's book, the
2:06:25
link is in the description, so if you're interested, feel free to grab
2:06:29
it. Once again, thank you John limb Back for stopping by the show.
2:06:33
Thanks guys, amazing conversation and we appreciate it so much. Hang around
2:06:41
for us, John one second and we'll wrap this bad Boy up. So
2:06:45
for Joe Scars, Brolly and A Triple B and John Limback, thank you
2:06:51
for watching the episode. Till next time, folks. Peace,