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The NFL's Annual Sacrifice - Black Monday · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Rosters to Rings. Alongside Tom Telesco, I am
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: fad Levine on behalf of producers Wyatt, Tom Telesco, producer
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Jason and myself. Happy New Year to all the listeners.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: We've got an action packed show today, football focused. We're
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: going to talk about the NFL Black Monday. We've seen
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a rash of firings of coordinators, coaches, and front office
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: people alike. We're going to break that down as well
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: as tell you a little bit about what goes into
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: those decisions, both of the firings and the hiring process.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: We're going to dive into a little bit of conversation
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: about the NFL playoffs. Tom, where I'd like to start
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: the conversation is talking about the Indiana Hoosiers football program.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: This has to be one of the most incredible stories
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: of a turnaround in all of sports.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's an amazing story. I mean, and I
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: live in Indianapolis for fifteen years. I've got a ton
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: of friends that went to AYU. They're beside themselves, I mean,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: and they just have never seen anything like this before.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Were that school. You just never thought the football program
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: would get to where it is now. I went to
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of games at Memorial Stadium, and it was
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: the easiest situation in college football for a scout or
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: GM to go to because unless it was a Purdue game,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, there wasn't a lot of people there. You
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: could drive in, go and scout the game, get out
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: and drive back. And it was But it's just it's
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: completely changed, and it's just it's hard to compare. I
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: couldn't really compare it to anything. I mean, I was
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: trying to think back anything like this before. And you know,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: and I guess in the late eighties at Kansas State
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: with Bill Snyder, Kansas State was historically, for you know,
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: thirty forty fifty years before, had you know, one of
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: the worst programs in college football. Bill Standerd got in
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: there and turned it around. They played a high level there,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: not necessarily playing for national championships, but but as far
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: as a success story. And Northwestern with Randy Walker and
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Pat Fitzgerald similar and even Oregon before Chip Kelly, I mean,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: chip Kelly was part of it, but Mike Bolatti, Rich Brooks,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: that was not a winning program and they turned it around,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: but nothing quite like what Indiana is doing right now.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: You know, you can say what you say, Look, it's
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: it's nil. And you know, everybody has the same amount
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: of money to spend, or at least similar amounts of
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: money to spend. But they don't have a ton of
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: four star and I don't think they have any five
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: star recruits there, so they're spending on the right people.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: They had a quarterback transfer last year to Cincinnati, Brandon
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Soresby who's now transferring to Texas Tech. He'll be a
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: first round draft pick next year. But they're replaced with Mendoza,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: so he's built a culture there at Curse Signetti.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: They have a really just a solid program, but it's uh.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: As far as football wise, I don't know about other sports.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I can't think of any story like this for a
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: school that had been historically at the bottom of the
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Big Ten forever and now is competing for a national championship,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: not only this year but last year.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Tom, I'm just going to throw out some numbers for
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: you just to put things in perspective. You kind of
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: alluded to a few of these things. Indiana has had
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: a foot program for one hundred and twenty seven years,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: during which time they are the losing this program in
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: college football history, the losingest, So this is the quintessential
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: going from worse to first. Prior to twenty twenty four,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: they had zero ten win seasons. They've done it in
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: each of the last two years under Kurt Signetti, which
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I think we should get to. I mean, it's an
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: absolutely remarkable thing that he's pulled off. They had not
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: won a bowl game since nineteen ninety one, before they
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: really dismantled one of the best blue blood programs in Alabama.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: According to you said, they didn't have any four and
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: five star recruits there. They were regarded as having the
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: seventy second most talented roster coming into this year, which
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: seems absolutely incredible to me. They had never had a
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Heisman Trophy winner until this year in Fernando Mendoza. They
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: had only been ranked in the top twenty five seven
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: times in one hundred and twenty seven years. They won
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: the conference out right twice this year and in nineteen
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: forty five. This is an incredible story. We're witnessing Kurt
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Signetti's coming out of JMU, which we saw again in
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: the College Playoffs issue, which is in and of itself
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: an incredible legacy that he's left there. And he's now
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: creating an incredible legacy in Indiana. It really is one
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: of the most remarkable stories in sports today, especially against
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: the backdrop of the absolute dominance and strength of the
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Big ten in the SEC. To be able to do
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: this in one of those two conferences is really really remarkable.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: And I think a big part of this, and I
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: think it starts with the head coach and then it
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: must trickle down to his assistance is player evaluation. I've
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: seen a first hand this year helping out at a
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: high school here in Orange County with kids that are
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: going to play at the next level in college, and
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: frankly seeing how these FBS schools, how they recruit and
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: how they evaluate was a little disappointing. It seems like
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: they spend more time on just you know, who are
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: the four stars, who are the three stars? Who are
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: the five stars? Aren't many five stars? But how many
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: stars do players have? In recruiting services, and then talking
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: to o their head coaches in the area, But very
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: little actually like film evaluation, like sit down and watch
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: games of the player and evaluate them. They may watch
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: a cut up on Huddle, They may watch us a
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: cut up on Twitter or on x of four or
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: five six plays, look at the kids' height, weight, speed,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: and then make an offer, and it just boggles my mind.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Like I know in the NFL, like when you get
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: ready for the draft, it is nothing like that at all.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: It's like it's heavy evaluation. Now we have much more
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: data to kind of blend in with the evaluation than
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: they do in high schools, but it's a lot of
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: film and live evaluation of players, and a lot of
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: colleges don't do it like that, but I think Indiana does.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I think they put a lot of work into watching
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: film of high school players, and no matter if the
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: kid has zero stars or two stars or three stars,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: if they feel like he has some traits to improve
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: and be a really good player for them and fit
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: their system. Those are players that are either recruiting out
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: of high school or signing out of the port, so
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I give them a lot of credit for their talent evaluation.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: All these teams have money to spend. Some schools are
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: spending more than others, but they at least have all
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: that money to spend. But who you're spending on. It's
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: just like the NFL, like we all have cap dollars
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: to spend, but who you're spending on free agency. So Indiana,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: it's done an incredible job. But he's done this everywhere.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Did the same thing at James Madison, he built that
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: program into a legitimate FBS school, you know, used to
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: be FCS one DOUBLEA. Did the same thing at Elon
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: and then he did the same thing at Indiana University
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania. So he's just done an incredible job.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Time, I think you shedline on something, which is when
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: you're building championship rosters, I think there are two routes
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: to go. One is you just get the most talent
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: you possibly can acquire and hope it all fits and
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: works out. Or you go acquire the people who fit
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: your system the best, and those aren't necessarily always the
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: most talented players, but the ones that you can maximize
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: their talent to the best of your resources and ability. Personally,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: I've always found a lot more success in the latter
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: than the former. When I was building out rosters in
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball, it's just, you know, remarkable how many
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: times you see teams just layering talent upon talent. But
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: sometimes there's duplication in roles and you start creating some
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: deficiencies there where you don't get to capitalize on the
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: utmost of that talent because it just doesn't fit in
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: your system quite as well as you had aspired it too.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a huge difference between building a
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: roster and building a team, two completely different things. You
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: may have build a roster that looks great on paper,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: but when you build a team, it all has to
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: fit together. They all have to fit the scheme on
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: offense and defense and football of what you're running, and
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: there has to be some balance to it, especially in
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: your position rooms. So there's just a big difference between
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: the two. I think gms sometimes get a lot of
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: credit for building a roster, but it's about building a
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: team and winning games. This isn't about showing a balance
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: sheet of hey, look at all the players I have here,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: and look where they look where they were drafted and
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: this was It just doesn't work like that at all.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: It's about building a team to win games on the field.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: So I know I was certainly and I learned this
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: at the Colts coming up in our bill polling, Like
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: our draft board probably looked a lot different than other teams.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: We removed a lot of players from the board that
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: may have been our first round pick or may go
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: in the first round, but just don't fit us. Either
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: don't fit the scheme, don't fit the character, maybe some
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: medical concerns, but we were really big on we're just
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: drafting players that fit the colts. And I took that
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: philosophy with me to the Chargers and then the Raiders
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: and not so much worried about what the league thought
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: of things. And I think some colleges do like that,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: and some colleges, I think, worry about what their alumni
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: and what the boosters will think when they see the
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: list of their recruits from high school and I count
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: the number of stars. You know, stars don't mean anything,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: wins do Tom.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Can you share with our listeners what goes into the
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: distinction between a two, three, four or five star recruit
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: and how much of that is subjective and how much
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: of that is objective and formulaic?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Well, it's all subjective. I actually I probably have no idea.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: I think there's because there's different services out there. They
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: probably have different definition of it. I know the one
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: service a definition was basically on I think a five
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: star as a high school player that they see will
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: you know, has high probability of playing in the NFL. Probably,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: But as far as the other stars, I don't even
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: know how they define it. I just know everybody looks
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: for four and five stars. There's very few five stars,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: but everybody wants four stars. Three stars are certainly Division
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: IE players, and I don't even think there are two stars.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe there are. If there are, i'd be like an
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: FCS player or a Division two player, but I don't.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's all subjective, and it just seems like
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: there's they throw these designations and labels on players, and
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: sometimes they put the labels on players as early as
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: a freshman or even going into the freshman year in
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: high school. But yeah, that's not part of the business
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I've been a part of, but it carries a lot
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: of weight in recruiting.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: I think it's very revealing that somebody who has spent
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: as many years as you have in a lead position
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: in the NFL that that's not really something you use
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: to evaluate talent of players. But that is something we
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: as fans of college football here all the time. Kurt
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Segnette is building a team without really focusing on those stars,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: and he has a chance to do something that has
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: never been done in Indiana history, which is win a
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: national championship. It'll be fascinating to see how this weekend
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: plays out. Tom Shift shifting our attention to another fascinating
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: story here in the Final four. Ole miss is an
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: incredible story. It's been dominated by Lane Kiffin leaving, but
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: there's so much more to this story than just that.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: You know, they were pre season ranked twentieth, They were
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: ranked preseason seventh in the SEC. They are the last
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: SEC team standing in the Final four, but it's hard
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: to ignore what's going on here with the coaching staff.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Lane Kiffin leaves at the end of the year. We've
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: talked about this before on the show, a very unique situation.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: He takes most of the offensive coaching staff with him
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: to LSU, but they have been loaned back. Six of
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: those coaches returned for the Sugar Bowl game against Georgia.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Now only two are going to go back for the
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: last last two games. There's a lot of controversy around this.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make Lane Kiffin, in my opinion, look very good.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: And also when you find out the only reason those
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: two guys were allowed to come back was because they
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: negotiated that into a condition of their deal of joining
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: LSU is the ability to coach the last two games.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Apparently they were the only two coaches who were able
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: to prevail on that in the negotiation. Two coaches will
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: be coming back, most importantly their offensive coordinator. But how
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: big of a story do you feel like? This is
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: an undercurrent for Old Misses. They are also shooting to
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: win a national championship for the first time in over
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: fifty years.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: It's such a unique situation that this could only happen
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: in college football, and it's kind of a shame. I mean,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: the goal for every team is to get to a
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: national championship and win a national championship. And you have
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: a school that's on the doorstep, and you got some
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: people with one foot out and one foot in. So
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: you know, I will give Lane kiff In a lot
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: of credit, like he built that Ole Miss program. And
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: they've had I mean, there's a talented team this year.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: In the last couple of years, they've had plenty of
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: NFL draft picks, you know, about the same nearly the
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: same as amount as LSU, which is you know, was
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: unheard of if you said that fifteen twenty years ago.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: So he's put together a really good program with a
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: lot of talent. And I've read some of the quotes
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: that the players have said. I will say this, you
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: can see this about every head coach in every locker room,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: probably in every sport. There'll be a group of players
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: that love the head coach. There'll be a group of
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: players that hate the head coach. And then you have
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: a group of players that are completely indifferent. They'll play
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: for whoever, they don't even really care. And you can
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: see that about every locker room, probably certainly in NFL
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: when you have got fifty three players plus sixteen practice squad.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, the calendar in college football, it's just it
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: makes no sense. It puts those coaches in a very
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: uncomfortable position. I didn't know about that. A couple of
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: coaches had negotiated into their contract that I love that.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: It's just so hard to come up with one set
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: of rules in college football are one calendar because there's
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: different conferences, every conference has a different commissioner, every college
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: has a differ For an a d obviously a head coach,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: and no one can get on the same page. But
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: to have a playoff going on and you've got coaches
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that are working for another school, working in the portal
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: and then trying to also coach the school that's still
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: playing ball. It's just terrible. So that's why I thought
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: it was so cool last week to see ole Miss
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: get the win, see those kids celebrate. They're right in
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: the middle of it. The good thing for the ole
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Miss program is you get a chance to have a
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: lot of younger coaches take on more responsibility for this,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: you know, in a really high leverage situation, and they'll
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: probably help those guys' careers. If you can keep the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: coordinators there for the time being that you know that
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: that's good. But yeah, this is the way college football is.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: And until they figure out a way to have one commissioner,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: I guess of VINCEAA football, this is going to happen
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: almost every year.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: As ole Miss is marching towards a historic season for them,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I'm sure administration never thought they'd be at this crossroads. Well,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: they probably make this decision. I think they're doing the
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: best they can here in my opinion, Like I understand
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: that they didn't keep laying Kiffanon to head coach. I
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: think that would have been too big of a distraction.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I do also admire them. They have to know that
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: they're exposing their players to more likely be in the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: transfer portal and heading to LSU by having the coaches
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: stick around. But they're putting the chance to win a
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: championship ahead of the notion that they may lose a
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: player to in this process, and I think that's the
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: right route to go. I mean, it's just so difficult
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: to get to where they've gotten in the conference in
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: which they're playing. To miss this opportunity, I think would
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: be one that they would regret, and so I tip
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: my hat to ole Miss and how they've handled this.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I think this was an exceptionally difficult hand for them
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: to play, and honestly, I think they're playing it about
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: as well as you possibly could. One thing, Tom that
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: I just want to ask you from a draft perspective,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: a story that I find to be a fascinating one
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: is just this emergence of Trindidad Chambliss, the quarterback for
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: ole Miss and the listeners perspective, it's such a unique
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: path he has to playing on the biggest stage in
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: college football right now. He grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: He attended Farris State University, which is a Division two school.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: He ended up taking them to two championships while he
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: was there as the quarterback. Before this season, he transfers
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: to Ole Miss, but not even to be the starting quarterback.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: He was slated to be the backup quarterback. Starting quarterback
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Austin Simmons gets hurt in the first game and then
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Champles comes in and that's really all she wrote. He
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: ended up he ends up playing the rest of the season.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: But for a guy who a year ago was playing
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Division two football, at the beginning of this year was
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: a backup in the SEC. What does his draft status
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: look like from your perspective, Thomas, you watch him play
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: if you're sitting there as the Oakland Raiders or Tennessee
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Titans or one of these teams at the top of
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the draft, Like, where does he fit now in this
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: draft conversation? When I'm guessing at the beginning of the season,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: he wasn't really even on people's boards.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but not really on any radars going into the year.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: And I think he's trying to get a six year.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: If he doesn't, he'll be in the draft now. As far,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I haven't studied him, so I can't give a full
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: scout of report, but just you know, watching his game.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: You know, at five eleven and a half one hundred
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: and eighty five hundred and ninety pounds, I don't think
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: he's going to be a high high draft pick, but
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: his athletic ability, his feet, he's got pretty good arm
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: strength for a smaller quarterback. He can avoid and run around.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe he has a chance. But it's a pretty cool story.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And we're seeing more and more of this. So many
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Division three, Division two FCS players transferring up and Farris State,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I mean the state of Michigan. There's a lot of
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Division two schools of Michigan. They have a really good
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: program at a lot of those schools and they play
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: for national championships. Fair State is obviously one of them.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: But we're seeing more and more kids really produce at
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: a very high level with the lower divisions and with
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: the amazing part is all these FBS schools. When you're
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: looking at the transfer portal, I mean there's a lot
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: of Division I schools you have to cover, but now
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: you're covering Division two, Division three, trying to find the court,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: trying to find a player like Trinidad Shambliss that you know,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: really dominated Division two football and you want to see
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: if he can do it at the Division IE level.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: But he still goes in as a backup. But then
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: you know injury is happen, he jumps in and you
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: know a way he goes. So this is really all
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: a benefit to the NFL too, because you watch Shambliss
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a fair estate and you're projecting a small quarterback to
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: the NFL coming from Division two. The odds, the probability
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: is just not real high. It's not impossible, but the
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: odds aren't very high. But now you get a chance
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: to see him versus SEC talent, like, well, maybe he
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: can do this despite his size. Maybe he can do
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: this at the NFL level. He's doing it in the SEC,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: which is big and fast and much much bigger, much
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: faster than the schools at Fairs State was playing. So
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: for us, or if the NFL just gives more evaluation
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: tools of some of these players, and if he gets
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: another year, he'll have a chance to have a full
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: season to come back and do it again and you know,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: maybe help his draft status, you know, show what he
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: can do. But it's his story is pretty remarkable. Are
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: seeing more and more stories like this.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: We'll be fascinating to see if he gets another year
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: of eligibility, and if he does, what where he can
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: be in the draft conversation the following season, or if
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: he's in this year's draft, how high he climbs based
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: upon this meteoric rise he's had this season. Shifting a
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: little bit to the other two teams that are and
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: we don't want to miss on these two teams, Miami.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I think one of the fascinating subplots here is there
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: was a lot of conversation that maybe they weren't going
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: to even be part of this pool, and here they
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: are one of the final four teams. I think you
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: could argue, if UVA had won the ACC championship, maybe
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: they don't even get in. You could certainly people out
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: of Notre Dame would say they still shouldn't have gotten
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: in and that Notre Dame should have been and well,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: here they are. Does this vindicate the College Football Committee?
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Does this vindicate the ACC to a certain extent, which
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: was a little bit maligned throughout the course of this
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: year as being a distant third or fourth conference to
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: the SEC and Big Ten. What is your take on
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Miami being standing tall here and not only standing tall,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: but they are a three point favor over Ole Miss
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: in the semi final.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah no, they're good. I mean, and as you pick
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: the twelve teams for the playoff, there's you know, at
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: some point there's gonna be some subjectivity involved. And even
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: though they have two losses, they have a really strong
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: team and they've shown that in the playoffs. I mean,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: they're built like an NFL team. They have a really
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: strong and powerful offensive line and a really strong and
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: powerful defensive line that rushes the passer both inside and out.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: And that's been a staple of their head coach, that
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: the play like that. And then on offense, they kind
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: of rely on their offensive line. They have a big, strong,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: powerful downhill running back and Miami's really taken the game
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: out at Carson Beck's hands, really put it on the
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: offensive line and the running back, and then you relied
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: on Carson to you know, convert some third downs. But
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: it's been a kind of a grinded out offense. And
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: then their defense can really rush the passer. They've got
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: two pass rushers Mesador and Bane that will be high
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: NFL draft picks. So anytime in college football, if you
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: have a chance to have really strong O line D
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: line and then have the skill positions like they have.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's why they've gotten as far as they have.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: And and then you look at at Oregon. Oregon has
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: a Dante Moore, who's I guess we don't know if
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: he's a come out in the draft yet or not.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: He has to make that decision soon, but he's an
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: NFL quarterback. He's the NFL starter or at some point
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: of his career. And uh, he's a really legit guy.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: And they have really good skill at Oregon. They're not
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: as strong on the old line D line, to say
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: as a Miami, but they have a lot of skill
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: and certainly in defense in the back seven. So these
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: playoff games, they're so fun to watch, not only as
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: a fan, but just you know, if you're if you
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: work in the NFL and you're evaluating players, to see
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: good versus good, high leverage games, pressure games, there's nothing better.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: And you get a chance to watch them these quarterbacks
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: like Ty Simpson and Dante more Mendoza obviously, to see
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: them playing these games your great evaluation tools.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Tom, I'm old enough that I went to UCLA when
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: they were in a conference called the Pac ten, which
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: then I think became the Pac twelve. And one thing
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I just want to say about Oregon, which was a
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Pac ten team. Obviously, they're head coaches in the final
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: four here, but so as Mario Cristobal came from Oregon
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: as well. So interestingly, two of the final four head
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: coaches worked at Oregon worked at a Pac twelve school.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: So while that conference is seemingly taking on a very
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: different complexion now, it is still having an influence on
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: the playoffs here. Last question I'd have for you, Tom
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: on the college football scene is the magnitude of Ohio State, Alabama,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: and Georgia losing. Obviously, they all got to the quarterfinals,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: no shame in that, but my guess is they go
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: go home highly disappointed. Is this just a sense of
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: we're seeing more parody in college football or is there
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: something to be concerned about if you're a fan of
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Ohio State, Alabama or Georgia based upon losing and not
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: making it to the at least the semifinals if not final.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's you know, the NFL has a
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: salary cap, and that creates parody they also have a
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: draft of an inverse order that creates parody. Now there's
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: no draft in college, but I do think nil money
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: is going to bring a little more parody to it.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I will say this. You hate to say it, but
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: it's really better to lose in the playoffs and the
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: quarter finals, in the semi finals because allows those three
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: schools you just mentioned to get right into the portal
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: full force. Then the college portal is basically NFL free agency,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: so without the collective Bargaining Agreement or really any rules,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: but it is. I mean, it's just but it gives
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: them more time because their assistant coaches and chances to
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: get right into the next year. So again we talk
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: about the calendar. The calendar is not ideal at all.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: It's got to be changed. I don't have any answers
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: to that, but but yeah, I just think that the
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: money that that's out there to be spent now is
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: going to come down to the schools that who has
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: the who has the best talent evaluators, whether it's their
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: recruiting department or whether it's their assistant coaches, however they're
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: going to do it, but who's better evaluating talent and others,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: and then who's better at developing that talent once they
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: get to your school. So, but I think it's good
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: for college football too. It's always good to have your
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: traditional powers, but I think it's good for college football
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to spread this out a little bit and give all
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: fan base is really a chance to chance to be
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: in the playoff, chance to win a national championship like
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: we're seeing with Indiana and organ and some others. So
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I think from a fan standpoint, it makes it exciting.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. We have three conferences represented, We've
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: got teams on the West Coast, we got teams on
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: the East Coast, and everywhere in between. It's it's something
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: for all the fans. We'll stay with us through the break.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: On the other side, we're going to shift our conversation
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to the NFL. We're going to talk about Black Monday,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: all the firings that took place, head coaches, coordinators, general managers.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk to Tom a little bit about
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: the process of how those guys get hired and why
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: they got fired. And then we're also going to dive
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: into our breakdown of the upcoming NFL playoffs. Here on rosters,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: to Rings. Welcome back to Rosters to Rings, Tom to
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: LESCo alongside fad Levine. Here we're going to jump into
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: the NFL. But where we're going to start the conversation
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: here is Tom. I want to just peel back the
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: curtain for our listeners as to in the past, unfortunately
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: we both have been in positions where we've had to
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: make decisions where we've had to let head coaches or
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: managers go coordinators in your cases, assistant coaches in mind,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: and what goes into those decisions as to why we
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: ultimately arrive at those those tough, those tough moments where
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: we feel like that's the only way we could go
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: to to try to achieve the goal for the greater
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: good of the franchise and just to just to kick
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: it off. Obviously, Sometimes sometimes there's just too much losing,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: you know, and and the head coach gets affiliated without losing,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: and you feel like you have to make a change
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: because ultimately our goal is to win championships. Other times
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: you just see under achievement, you know, where a team
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: was just supposed to do really well and they falter,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately somebody has to be held accountable to that.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: In our in our pursuit of winning championships. Sometimes it's
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: because the person has lost the locker room. Their voice
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: has just become stale, and honestly that just happens over
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: time that that may be no fault of the person.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: It is tough to command a locker room through multiple
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: cycles of you know, winning and then rebuilding and trying
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: to win again. Sometimes owners are mandating some of these decisions,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: and unfortunately we're the steward or the owner and we
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: have to do what they say despite our pushback. Sometimes
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: they put their foot down and then probably in the
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: in the worst case scenarios is occasionally there's a transgression
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: or a violation of a contract that just forces our
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: hand where we just have to make a decision. But Tom,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: what walk us through when you were in these situations.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: What were some of the criteria you considered when you
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: ultimately made some of these very very difficult decisions.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been on all sides of this. I've been
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: on this Black Monday. I've been you know, part of
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: letting a head coach go. I've been part of me
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: getting let go. Although I never got let go on
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Black Monday, got let go like in been let go
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: twice as the GM. Once it's like in mid December,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: and then once on Black Thursday, I guess, four or
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: five days after Black Monday. But yeah, so I've seen
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: all sides of this and it look it. Usually it
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: just comes down to losses. That's where it all starts. Obviously,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: unless like you said, you know, unless there's a transgression.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: But basically it comes down to losses, and losses are
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: a byproduct of a lot of things. It could be
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: an underachieved, underachieving team. It could be the coach loses
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: the locker room, it could be leadership issues. You know,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of it, just some of it, I guess
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: is you know, how long of a leash do you
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: get when losing starts? You know, are you showing is
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: your team showing some improvement? Like when you watch the
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Colts this year, Like the Colts were showing improvement. They
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: started off seven to one, then they had a lot
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: of uncontrollable things happen, finished seventh straight losses, but like
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: you saw improvement. The Atlanta Falcons, they were expecting bigger
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: things this year on offense. Certainly on offense, they have
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of talent. Defense, They've got some talent, but
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: just didn't not played expectations early in the year, and
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: you make a change, and and some of it is,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: you know, what's your what's the head coaches, what's his relationship,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: how does he treat you know, his players, assistant coaches,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: front office, ownership, the media. That all kind of comes
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: into it, but all starts with wins and losses, and
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: that that's the name of professional sports. We all know
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: when we're hired. Uh, there's there's no disillusions like where
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: there's no entitlement. We're stewards of the job for at
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: a period of time, whether it's with me one year
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: with the Raiders or eleven years with the Chargers. You know,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: you're you handle that job. The way I looked at
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: it and a lot of people do is you know,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: to me, it was always it's always one year type
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: of job. To me, like there was no givens say hey, look,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I know I'm here four or five years. I'm going
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: to really take my time. Now, you try and make
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: decisions that aren't knee jerked that that would lead you
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: to bleed the hammoly here a year, I got to
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I got to make some high risk moves to get
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: where I want to go. But as far as when
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: it comes to your your job, I never looked too
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: far ahead on that and everybody is the same way.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's professional sports. You have to produce, you
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: have to perform, and if you don't, you know, they'll
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: find somebody else to move into your chair. So but yeah,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: head coaching and the other thing with the head coaching changes,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: it's not just the general manager. There's you know, you
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: have a front office, but obviously you have ownership that
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: have a huge part of that and his third decision
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: in the end to make the change or make not
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: make the change. And the NFL we're averaging, you know,
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: north of six changes a year. It's been closer to
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: seven or eight.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Usually.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I think we're six right now. There's usually one surprise
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: every year. There hasn't been that one surprise yet, although
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I thought Jonathan Gannon was a bit of a surprise yesterday.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: But there's only been six changes or six uh firing
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: so far, which is a good thing. But yeah, and
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: like we talked off air before, like the NFL, it
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: happens quick. You know you have that last game and
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: you know everybody wants to, you know, get ahead of
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: things to start working on their new coaching search. And
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: so those those when the head to coach go as
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Some do it the night of the last game. Some
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: will wait till the next morning. Some did it before
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: the season was even over, because everybody wants to move
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: on to their process as quickly as possible.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Tom when I was sitting in the seed, I always
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: felt like you wanted to stay true to these two things.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: One is you wanted to be as patient as you
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: possibly could. You always wanted to rationalize why you would
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: keep a coach for another season. You know, we'll talk
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: about it as we get into each of these individual teams,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: but it's remarkable that some of these franchises haven't made
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: coaching changes for decades at a time, and how successful
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: they've been, there's a reason for that. That sort of stability,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: you know, typically gets rewarded. And then two, I always
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: tried to be really objective and honest about was this
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: an issue where I didn't put together a good enough
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: roster or they didn't manage the roster well enough. And
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I think when you conflate those two things, you can
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: make some really bad decisions. I'm going to bring one
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: of the teams up when we break down each of
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: these teams, and I'm going to ask you about that
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: because my estimation from a distance some of those teams,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: every everybody says when they fire their head coach, Hey,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the losing just isn't where we want to be and
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: this wasn't reflective of the talent we thought we had
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: on the field. Well, in some cases, I think that's accurate,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: and there was underachievement. In some cases, I'm not sure
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it was, And I just want to pick your brain
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: a little bit about that. But let's shift our attention
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: a little bit, Tom. In today's day in age, there's
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: so many ways that these organizations are filling these spots.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: You know, it used to be I think that just
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: ownerships would would would would kind of run these kind
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: of searches. They would arrive at a Canada pool, they
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: talked to the league office, maybe they've talked to some
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: other owners and then they would you know, ultimately interview
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: a handful of people and pick somebody. Well, now it's
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: being done very very differently, and I'm going to come
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: up share a few different ways it's being done right now,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: and I love your your commentary on it is now
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: you're seeing former star players getting very involved. As you
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: hear the Miami Dolphins are hiring Troy Aikman as a consultant,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: and we know Tom Brady is involved with the Raiders.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: We're hearing that Ryan's name associated with the Atlanta Falcons,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: and who knows where Philip Rivers may end up, whether
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: he's on a coaching staff or advising people. But that's
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: a relatively new thing to see former players and some
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: who played very recently serve as advisors in this process.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: You know, what's your take on that, ton Like, what
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: would be your perspective if your owner came to you
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: and said, hey, I want you to include this former
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: star player, maybe who has no roots with the franchise
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: but certainly no recent routes with the franchise, but he's
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: going to be a consultant and astride you as you
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: ultimately make this head coaching decision.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's always good to have different perspectives
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: from different people, and I think former players, certainly former quarterbacks,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot there that could be helpful
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: when you make these decisions. Obviously, it is a big
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: difference between playing football, commentating on football, and actually building
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: a football team. But look, we've all, like you know,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: I learned how to do this job on the way
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: up when I was with the Colts really from Bill Polling.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: We all learn it, you know, one way or another.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: There's no reason why a former quarterback couldn't kind of
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: learn how our front office works. But I do think
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: there's there's definitely a perspective that I think that was
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: really good. Like, I don't know Matt Ryan personally. I've
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: heard a lot of great things about him. I think
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: he's I think he can probably really help out their
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: situation there Now that the Falcons are doing things a
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: little bit differently, it doesn't mean it's wrong at all.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I think it's good to think outside the box a
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: little bit. Hiring a head coach and a GM is
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: really difficult to do. I will say when they when
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: they a couple months ago when they hired a consulting
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: firm to do an audit of football operations, you knew
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: where that was going. Because as you you and I
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: both know, if if a consulting firm comes into do
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: an audit, they do it. They're never going to go
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: to the owner and say, hey, look everything is going great.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Just stay the course like that's never gonna happen. You know,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: there's gonna be massive changes, and there's gonna be big
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: changes there. But I do think former players can definitely
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: lend a perspective that maybe the GM doesn't have. You know,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't play professional football, only played up through college,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: so there's a lot of things that you know, there
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: may be blind spots that I have now the search firms.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: To me, that's a little different. I just always felt
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: it was a GM's job to have a vetted list
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: of head coach candidates and run the process. That's what
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: you pay him for, and you run that process with ownership,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: and you know, if the GM isn't capable of doing that,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: then he probably isn't the right GM. I like the
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: fact that that, you know, I saw what Rix Spielman
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: did last year with the Jets, what Bob Myers did
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: with the Commanders. You know, talking about two former gms
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: that they just know the process. They you know Rix's case,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: knew the candidates, but they know what works and they
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: know what doesn't work. You know the mistakes that you make.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: So I think having guys like that, you know, I
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: think is a really is really helpful because you don't
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: like hiring and you know, it's it's difficult, Like there's
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: just you know a lot of it. So much of
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: it is subjective so much as the circumstances around it.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: But having the really a diverse pool of that hiring
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: of who to help with the hiring process is important.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, having a former quarterback like
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Matt Ryan, like Philip Rivers, I think, by the way,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: I think Philip could be outstanding head coach in this league.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I think that's I hadn't even thought of that until
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I heard it a couple of days ago, and I
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: thought he was kind of set on being a high
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: school coach and doing that really well. I think you'd
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: be outstanding NFL coach. But yeah, there's certainly some perspective
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: that a former NFL quarterback in Land, and I think
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: that would be helpful.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: And Tom and when you were talking there about what
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: happened in Atlanta that the group of Sportsology, it was
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: interestingly also headed up by Rick Smith, who is a
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: former general manager of the Houston Texans. And as a
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: general manager, when you are getting audited, when your owner
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: feels that that is required, you do feel like you're
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: days are numbered and the case. So you know, firms
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: are being used across a lot of sports. In Major
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: League Baseball, corn Ferry has long since been a group
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: that Major League Baseball has leaned into to vet general
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: manager candidates. You mentioned some of the former gms and
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: the former players. I sit astride you here, which is
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: when you're making these decisions, you aspire to be as
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: objective as you possibly can, but it's so easy to
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: fall into the trap of the pendulum swing from the
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: previous person you had and some of the flaws that
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: that person may have had, and trying to overcompensate for them,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: and you swing the pendulum the other way too far.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: And so having somebody come in who's a third party
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: who maybe intentionally hasn't been in your four walls, living
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: every win and loss for the last two seasons, which ultimately,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: you know, force the decision you made. I think it
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: only helps you maintain that level of objectivity that we
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: all strive to have in this process, but sometimes we
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: don't perfectly achieve because we are trying to accomplish something.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: I will say unequivocally when and I'm not going to
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: name the person, we hired. But when we hired somebody
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: at one point, a lot of our questions in the
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: interview process was effectively, how would you handle this situation
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: or this challenge. Most of those challenges were ones that
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: had manifested in the last couple of years. The person
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: answered the questions perfectly well, and so ultimately we arrived
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: at a candidate who was exceptional at addressing all the
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: problems we had had, but it didn't illuminate the problems
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: we were going to have. And so having a third party,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: whether that's a former player, whether that's a former general manager,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: I think if you can check your ego at the door,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I think you're going to arrive at better decisions. The
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: more people who can maintain objectivity through this process is
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: really tantamount to making the right decisions. And so, Tom,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I want to dive into a few of these unfortunate
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: firings that we've had. Each of them takes on a
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: slightly different complexion, but let's start in your old stomping
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: grounds with the Los Angeles Las Vegas Sorry Raiders. They
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: part ways with Pete Carroll, who arguably could be a
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Hall of Fame coach in his own right. He lasts
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: one year there, And just to put things in perspective
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: with the listener, everyone always hears these numbers where we're
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: going to throw them out there again. Since nineteen sixty nine,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: the Steelers have had three head coaches. Since nineteen sixty nine,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: the Raiders have had twenty one head coaches. Since twenty
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: ten alone, the Raiders have had ten head coaches. They're
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: about to hire their eleventh. That's the most turnover in
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: all of the NFL. Next year alone, the Raiders will
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: be paying former coaches approximately fifty million dollars. And here
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: they are back at the table making yet another significant decision.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: How do you assess that opportunity? A lot of cap
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: space for the Raiders, a lot of draft picks, a
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: lot of those draft picks you acquired, and a lot
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: of that cap space you freed up. How attractive of
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: a job is this right now for a head coach
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: to come in and try to lead the Las Vegas Raiders.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Plus they'll have the number one pick in the draft,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: which is more likely going to be a quarterback, So
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: we'll have a quarterback to build around. And I thought
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Pete Carroll would give them some stability there. He is
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: a Hall of Fame head coach, and I thought that's
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: what they needed. But like you could tell this year,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: I watched all the Raider games, it just didn't work.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: It had happened sometimes, but it just didn't click. There's
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: a fine line and a balance between staying with stability
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: for stability sake or just saying, hey, look, we made
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: a mistake and we're gonna you know, we're going to
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: cut our losses now and make a change now. The
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: only issue is, like this will be this will be
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: the fourth straight draft where you're drafting with a different
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: head coach in the room, and it's just hard to
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: build the team that way because every coach has a
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: different philosophy, scheme, thoughts. The new coach may not be
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: as invested in some other players that were already drafted there,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: so they have to get to a point and I
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: do feel like now I think they can get everybody
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: in the same page and whoever this next head coach is,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: and then they're going to draft a quarterback with the
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: first pick to start building and it's going to take time,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: and nobody wants It's hard to be patient when you
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: have it won and so long. But it's just it's
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: going to take them some time still. I know the
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Patriots turned it around in one year. I know the
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Jaguars did it, but they also had quarterbacks are already
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: in place. But it's still a good job. Like I
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: was there, I know, I was only there a year,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: but they have amazing resources there in between the stadium,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: the practice facility is one of a kind. It's the
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: best I've ever been in. They have a worldwide fan base.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Mark Davis is a passionate owner and he lets football
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: people make football decisions and I always respected that. And
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: they've have great leadership on the business side. They've got
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: their president, Sandra Douglas Morgan. She's outstanding. And then like
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: all the support staffs that we rely on, there's some
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: really talented people there, like training room, equipment, video communications, scouting.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: When I got there, the scouting staff was excellent. It
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: was really good. They had been well schooled. So there's
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of positives there for somebody. And now the
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: fact but you know, one of the big issues for
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: a number of years, you know, since there a car
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: is they haven't had a quarterback to rely on, and
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: they're hard to find unless you're picking high hard to
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: find in freegency. Very rarely does a winning starting quarterback
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: just come along in freegency that other team decides they
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: don't want anymore, so they'll have an opportunity to draft
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: a quarterback high, build around that player, and you know,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: hopefully keep everybody in the same page long enough to
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: really get this going. But I still think it's a
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: good job despite the circumstances of the last ten years
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: or so.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when you're a general manager or head
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: coach perspective candidate, you do look at the stability of ownership.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: You do look at what has come before you. It's
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: the best indication of future actions is past behavior, and
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: so you have to go in there at least with
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: your eyes wide open. That there's been a lot of volatility,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: there's been a lot of change, and there's not been
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: a ton of patients there. It seems as if they
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: if they were willing to change their business practices, and
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: maybe they will with new leadership there, there may be
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to really turn around because of the resources
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: you referenced.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew going like I knew going in like, Hey,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I knew the history there, so I wasn't naive to it,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: but we're all competitive and we all feel like, hey, look,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I know it hasn't worked before, but myself and this staff,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: we'll get it going. Didn't work out for me, but
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I guarantee if someone's going with the same attitude, like, hey,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: we'll get this going, and eventually they will.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, as you mentioned before, they're one of thirty
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: of these jobs, and there's a ton of resources here,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: and you're picking first in the draft, and you've got
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: a lot of draft picks, so there's a lot of
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: reasons to be excited. I always found one of the
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: difficult things when you're talking to an owner, especially on
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: a franchise that has lost over a time horizon, is
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: when you then walk through the door and say we
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: need to start rebuilding. They feel like they have been rebuilding,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: and so they feel like, Okay, we're taking a step back,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: but we're taking a step back from picking first in
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: the draft. How much longer do we have to go
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: through this? And sometimes then you are carrying the weight
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: of the previous losses on your shoulders because they're located
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and saying like, no, this is your five of a rebuild,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: and you're having to say no, we're starting the clock over.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: This is your one and the fans have to embrace that.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: It takes a very compelling plan to do that, but
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: it takes a lot of patience from your owner to
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: complement that general manager and give them the time necessary
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: to build a championship type organization.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no doubt. And the good thing at least
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: with this job is they're going to have a young
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: quarterback to build around. And in the NFL there are
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: plenty every year of worse The first worse than the division,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: the first in the division happens every year. It's part
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: of the reason why the NFL has a salary cap.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: And like I talked about before, it's an inverse order
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: draft to try and give some teams and give hope
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: so they'll have a quarterback to build around and you
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: go from there.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: Tom, I want to shift our conversation to a team
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: that I think is pretty polarizing in the decision they made,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: and that's the Cleveland Browns. So from an outsider's perspective,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: you're the insider. You're letting me know how off I
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: am on this. I look at it and say, who
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: was really responsible for the downfall of this franchise and
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: based upon roster quality and strength to schedule. Before the
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: season started, pundits projected that the Brown We're going to
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: have the third fewerst wins in the NFL. They predicted
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: them to finish with five wins and the third worst record.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: They actually finished with five wins and they have the
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: sixth worst record. So you know, certainly you would not
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: say that they overachieved by any stretch. But I'm not
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: sure this was a colossal underachievement. It seems like they
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: basically did about what they should do based upon the
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: talent they had and the strength of schedule they had.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: So here we are.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Jimmy hasm who is the managing general partner, effectively announces
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: in the dismissal of Kevin Stefanski that we just lost
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: too much over the last two years. And they did.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: You know, the record of the last two years was
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: significantly poor. But I look at it and say, is
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: this really an instance where the general manager underserved the
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: head coach in terms of the quality of talent they
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: had on the field, or was it that the manager
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: of the head coach underserved the team by not managing
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: the talent well enough and keep in mind, and I
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: think this is part of this conversation too, is we
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: are talking about Kevin Stefanski, who has won the NFL
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Coach of the Year twice now in his brief tenure
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: with Cleveland.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: You know, it's funny, Andy Reid, after all these years,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: he hasn't won that award once. So I don't really
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: look at awards. But look, look, two things can be
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: true here. Kevin's fancy. He's an excellent head coach, really
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: great offensive mine, good leader. Has had had to navigate
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of difficult situations in Cleveland, took him to
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: a playoff twice, Like you said, Coach of the Year twice.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: But look with with with all jobs, you know there
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: are six years. Sometimes it's just time, you know, for
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: a fresh new voice. And yeah, the last two years
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: that the losses have kind of added up. But this
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: is definitely a team in transition and they're just now.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: You know, when they made the Deshaun Watson trade, obviously
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: as the player didn't work out, but you know, they
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: gave up a lot of assets, you know, like three
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: number one draft picks I think a two win of three,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: so a ton of draft capital. And then and cap
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: money that was spent that you don't have. So that
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: was a lot of assets that went to one player
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: that didn't work out performance wise, and that's really affected
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: their team building the last you know, two or three
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: years and they're just now like last year they had
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: a good amount of draft picks. They had a great
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: draft last year, hit on a lot of players last year.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Will need another year that This year, they're going to
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: have a good amount of draft picks. Cap space I
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: think will be okay in the end. I haven't studied
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: that as much, but I think their cast base should
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: be okay. So they have things moving forward. The last
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: couple of years has been hard because of the one
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: decision on the Deshaun Watson trade. So but I just think,
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: you know, six years sometimes it's just you know, different voice,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: different vision. Moving forward, he'll land on his feet if
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: he'll have he already has a couple of head coaching
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: interviews set for this year. He'll have a coordinator spot
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: definitely if he doesn'tet a head coaching job. And uh, look,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of good head coaches, a lot of good
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: gms get let go from different situations, just the nature
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: of the business. But but this is a team that's
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: really it's it's still building for the future that Thank
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: god they have some patience there because they've had to
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: use it. They have an outstanding defense, like the defense
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: today is playoff ready. Doesn't mean it'll be like that
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: exactly next year, but look this year they played like
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: a playoff caliber defense. Its offensively, and I think they
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: knew that going into the year. Offensive line, skill, positions,
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: quarterback all very unsettled. So they have a lot of
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: work to do on that side of the ball. And
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that's it we'll be working on this offseason.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: You know, time you touched on it there where you
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: talked about you were kind of dismissing the Coach of
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: the Year award.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not dismissing you. No, no, no, it it's so
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: funny like Andy Reid is one of the best coach
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: of the league, he's never won it with Kansas City.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a very fair assessment, and I
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: think it's interesting for fans to hear what we as
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: executive thinks think of those types of awards. I'll tell you,
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: in Major League Baseball, the way I always viewed it
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: is really the teams in the bottom say ten to
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: fifteen payrolls were the ones that were eligible for those
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: because basically it was how many games did you win
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: relative to your payroll rank, especially League Baseball where there
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: is no salary caps, so you saw every year these
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: are won by Cleveland, Tampa, Minnesota, Milwaukee, those types of
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: teams like Brian Cashman, who is going to go first
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: ballot Hall of Famer. I don't know that he ever
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: won this the Executive of the award, but haven't qualified.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: But Billy being in Oakland did several times. And Brian
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Cashman has won a number of World Series, and so
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: it is in Major League Baseball, it's almost impossible if
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: you're the Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs, you know, Yankees, Mets
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: to win these awards. So it's almost like the best
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: coach from the bottom payrolls and the best executive from
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: the bottom perils. So it's certainly something you are proud
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: of having won. But the actual pool of people who
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: are everyone's technically eligible, I'm not sure in practice how
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: many people are formally actually eligible to win these things. Tom,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: turning our attention to the Alana Falcons, you know a
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: few interesting elements about this one. To me, this is
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: something football does. Major League Baseball doesn't do this nearly
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: as much. But before the games this Sunday, the media
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: wrote somewhat emphatically that Terry Fontano, that the general manager
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: of the Falcons, was probably in trouble, but Raheem Morris,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: the head coach, wasn't. Meanwhile, they did prognosticate that Kevin
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Stefanski would lose his job and so would Pete Carroll.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: You just don't see that in baseball, where people are
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: definitively you know, cut off from their jobs the day
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: before the season ends and they still to coach something. Well,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: the media was half right. Both Raheem Morris and Terry
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Fontano lose their jobs. You know, this is a case
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: of probably some degree of under achievement. In aggregate, the
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: team was you know, projected to win eight games and finish,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: you know, in second place in the NFC South. They
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: ultimately finished with eight wins and they actually tied for
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: first place in the NFC South, but they was a tiebreaker.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: They finished on a four game winning streak, which unfortunately
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: maybe speaks to the positive that note none of the
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: players let go of the rope for Raheem Morris. He
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: didn't lose the club, which is awesome, but they dug
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: such a big hole that those four wins didn't really
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: amount to as much because they were effectively eliminated. It
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: seems again here like the handling of a QB situation
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: dramatically impacted job security, from the signing of Kirk Cousins
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: when he was coming off of an injury to a
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: very lofty contract, to the drafting and moving up to
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: draft Michael Pennix, and then maybe not giving both those
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: guys an opportunity to compete going into this year and
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: just giving the job to Pennix. When the dust settles,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: it's the second longest playoff drought in the NFL eight years.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Both guys lose their jobs, and furthermore, there's a lot
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: of rumors, as you alluded to earlier, that Matt Ryan
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: is going to come in a leadership position. How do
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: you assess what transpired here with the Atlanta Falcons.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: I can never remember a team that was eliminated from
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: the playoffs in early December, like almost right after Thanksgiving,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: but then ended up finishing tied for the division. But
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: you know that was he did not in the playoffs.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: It's just so I do give Raheiem Morris lot of
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: credit because we talked about it earlier. I'm sure he
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: knew there was an audit of the building going on
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: and that doesn't always farewell for the leadership. But he
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: kept the team playing and they played hard all the
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: way to the end, winning four straight games. This offense
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: has a lot of talent, but you know this would
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: fit under that underachiever category. And you talk about quarterback decisions,
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: I mean they've put a lot of assets into that position,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: whether it's the UFA money in the cap space they
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: used on Kirk Cousins, you know, who was coming off,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: you know, coming off with significant injury and also is
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: on the older side, and then use a high draft
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: pick on a quarterback in the very same year. You
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: only have so many assets to allocate. You have to
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: decide where and how you want to do that. They
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: put a lot in that position, which is the most
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: important position, but they backed it up immediately with the
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: draft pick and then all that money, and then two
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: years later twenty twenty six, now going in the next year,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: they have a huge hole at the position because Kirk
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Cousins is either going to be released before the league
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: year starts, and Michael Penix is coming off in ACL
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: injury and he had a you know, durability issues in college,
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: so we don't know who the quarterback is opening day.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Pennix will play next year. I'm sure he'll recover fine,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: but is he ready for opening day? We don't know.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: And that can stay healthy for the whole year. So
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: they've got a lot of questions there. And we talked
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: about Matt Ryan. I think you can give them some
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: really interesting perspective on the situation from the outside. As
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: I talked about before, playing football and commentating about football
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: is different than building a football team or two or
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: three completely different things. But I think for Matt Ryan,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: if he ends up working there, you know, he could
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: learn learn the ropes. You know, Rich McKay has been
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: a GM, he's a president there. He's moving into a
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: different role. But nobody knows how the league works better
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: than Rich McKay, So Matt Ryan can get some guidance
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: from him. Whoever the GM is, we'll certainly have for
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: an office experience. He can teach them the ropes. Matt
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Ryan never seemed like I have all the answers type
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: of guy, So I think the thought of having him
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: involved in that, I think is a positive. But it's
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: going to be a completely clean slate for the GM
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: and the head coach to take over that team, and
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: luckily they have a lot of talent on both sides
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: of the ball. He's got to figure out the quarterback situation,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: but it's not a bad setup for whoever goes in
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: there to take over. And you know, if you're working
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: with Matt Ryan, you kind of be a I guess
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: A three, you know, I guess, very similar to what
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Jacksonville is doing with Tony Bisselli. And then they hired
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: a GM and head coach, and you know that. I
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: know that's just one comparison, but that seems to be
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: working very well in year one. So as long as
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: everyone can work together as long as their personalities fit,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean you all have to see things the same.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: As long as your personalities fit, I think it could
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: work really well.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Well. I'm particularly interested in this in this situation you
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: mentioned Jacksonville. We already talked about Las Vegas with Tom Brady,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: because the San Francisco Giants are doing this in baseball
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: with Buster Posey. Assuming the leadership role in that franchise,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: And I think the success of these is exactly what
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: you just said, Tom, is if you were able to
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: delegated understand what piece of the leadership high you should
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: be kind of investing in versus where you need to supplement.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: I think these can be massively successful arrangements. If you
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: try to do more than what you're capable of doing,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: as is the case with any of us, usually the
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: game's going to come up and humble you very quickly.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: So it'll be interesting to see how these unfold. The
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: last one I just wanted to hit on a little
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: bit more briefly, Tom, is what happened in Arizona. You
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: alluded it to it earlier. Jonathan Gannon loses his job,
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: and a question I guess I just would ask of
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: you is one observation I'd have is that you know,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: just because you're a exceptionally successful coordinator does not necessarily
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: mean you're going to be a highly successful head coach.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: And we've seen that recently. So Jonathan Gannon goes to
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: Arizona after a tremendous run in success with the Philadelphia Eagles.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Josh McDaniel, who has had a few stints as a
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: head coach. Is probably one of the most storied offensive
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: coordinat of the recent era, but he's gone twenty and
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: thirty three as a head coach. He has six Super
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Bowl rings as a coordinator with the Patriots. Steve Spagnolo
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: is another one who is eleven and forty one in
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: a few stints as a head coach. He has four
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Super Bowl rings. Is probably one of the best defensive
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: coordinators in the game. What is your account of some
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: of these guys? And on the flip side, you got
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: guys like Mike McDonald and Liam Cohen who are doing
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: exceptionally well for their teams. Ben Johnson's doing exceptionally well
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: for his team. But not all coordinators are necessarily cut
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: out to be head coaches.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was a little surprised with Arizona. I
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: understand why they made the move. I just, you know,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: just knowing that ownership is very patient there and they
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: had a lot of injury, especially on the offensive side
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: of the ball, and then obviously the quarterback position was
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: unsettled and inconsistent. So I thought they'd come back with
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: another year with Jonathan Gannon. I think he's a really
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: good coach. He's got a nice body of work as
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: a defensive coordinator, so he'll land on his feet again.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not worried about that, but but it's it's hard
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: when you don't get consistent play from your quarterback and
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: they're they're in a situation with Kyler Murray. Is he back?
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Is he not back? I do think if Kyler Murray
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: is available on the street, I think he'll have a
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: lot of suitors. This is a year if you need
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: a quarterback. The draft is thin, and free agency is
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: always then a quarterback, but that's thin as well. So
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I think Kyler Murray will have some some suitors if
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: he's available. But yeah, now Arizona's back in the looking
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: for a head coach. And I think we talked about
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: a little bit earlier, talk about your pool of candidates
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: and the good teams do this as far as the process, like,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: the pool of your candidates can't just be the coordinators
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: on the final four teams. It has to be a
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: little more wide ranging. There's a lot of good coordinators
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: out there. There's a lot of good position coaches that
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: you want to start your pool with and kind of
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: whittle it down. And that's what Arizona is going to
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: have to do right now, really starting from scratch. But yeah,
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: this was the one that was Again I understand they
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: hadn't they hadn't won much the last two years, but
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I thought there were a lot of circumstances this year
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: that kind of led into the record what it was.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: But nature of the.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Business, Tom, Is there anything that you see from a
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: general manager's seat as to why some coordinators are successful
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: when they've become head coaches? And I'm thinking, obviously this
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: is a little bit short lived, but given them credit
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: where there it's due, But looking at what Ben Johnson's done,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Liam Cohen, Mike McDonald, and in contrast, some guys who
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: are massively successful as coordinators, and certainly Jonathan Gannon was
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: that for the Philadelphia Eagles, Josh McDaniel has been that
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: for the Patriots, where he's won six Super Bowls there
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: as an offensive coordinator. Steve Spagnolo's done that for a
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: number of teams and winning four Super Bowl rings with
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: the Giants and Chiefs as a defensive coordinator, but not
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: necessarily the most successful when they get in the head
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: coaching ranks. Is there any common theme you see there
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: at all anything that you would be looking for in
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: a coordinator to indicate somebody who is more likely to
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: be both a successful coordinator and a successful head coach.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard. I mean, in the best case scenario,
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: the coordinator you're hiring to be your head coach has
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: at least five years experience as a coordinator. That's kind
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: of been there's been a lot of studies done. They
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: typically have a higher success rate. Doesn't mean it's a
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: guarantee hit. But the biggest issue is being an offensive
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: defensive coordinator and being a head coach is two completely
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: different and separate jobs. There's so many different job responsibilities
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: between the two, and being a head coach is much
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: more of a CEO than x's and o's, and that's
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: just the nature of it. You're dealing with a lot,
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: you're dealing with the media, you're dealing with ownership, You're
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: managing a lot of people. But a lot of things
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: come across your desk as a head coach that wouldn't
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: come near a coordinator. Coordinator can really just focus on
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: the scheme, the x's and o's, and that's it twenty
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: four to seven. But the head coach doesn't have that,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: so it is hard. Sometimes it's always hard to try
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: and project a coordinator will he be a good head coach?
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: And that's why you have the interview process because you know,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: part of the interview, part of the whole process is
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: you know how good a coach is on his side
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: of the ball. Obviously going to be part of it.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: A lot of the interview processes just talking about the
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: head coaching job, what the responsibilities are and how they
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: would handle them, how they would handle those situations. And
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: as a coordinator, you just there's a lot of things
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: you just can't practice to be a head coach because
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: it's just it's not your responsibility. So but I think
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: experience does matter in most situations. Not all the time,
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: but I think it does help. So if you're looking
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: at a perspective head coaching candidate that maybe is a
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: very small coordinator history me just gotta dive a little deeper,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: maybe talk with a little bit more people, trying as
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: much as you can in the interview. You're hiring a
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: head coach, at least in the NFL, it's by far
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: the hardest part of the job, and the success rate
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: isn't high, and you can do it and do which
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: way you want. But it's just, you know, it's it's
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: it's it's really it's people. It's not very objective all
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: the time. So yeah, it's a it's a process that
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: it's a fun process to go to, but it's also
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: very complex in the same way.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: Tell me one thing I would just add to your
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: criteria consideration is I always took note as to the
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: job managers in baseball who produced general manager candidates who
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: are successful elsewhere, or the mentors or the manager who
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: produced bench coaches and third base coaches and pitching coaches
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: who went on to be managers elsewhere. I think there's
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: a track record there, and I think there is something
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: to be said for general managers who more effectively delegate
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: to their lieutenants do produce better general managers. And there's
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: some people who have been wildly successful in Major League
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Baseball as general managers who really have not produced too
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: many other people have gone on and had successes generals
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: interesting similarly in the coaching ranks. And so while you
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: can't perfectly be prepared for the next opportunity, I agree
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: with you one hundred percent. Until you're sitting in that seat,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: you don't really know the magnitude of the role. But
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: some people are more prepared than others because they've had
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: superiors who have mentored them and who have delegated to
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: the point where they at least have some experience associated
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: with that, so they're not taken aback so much by
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: those new opportunities and new challenges and responsibilities you have
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: when you take on those roles. Because the magnitude of
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: those roles, plus the pressure associated with them and the
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: expectations it needs, your learning curve has to be exceptionally quick,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: but it's exceptionally steep. And if that if the slope
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: of that has been reduced a little bit by your
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: training going into it, you're just at a much better
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: advantage of having success in that role. And it may
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: have nothing to do with whether you're technically talented enough
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: to handle the role. It's whether you also have some
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: experience so that you're not blindsided by what that new
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: opportunity presents in terms of the formidable challenges you'll have
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: moving forward.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just like Sean Sean McVay. Everyone says, well, you know,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: everyone that works for Sean mcveig has head coaching opportunities
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: because they've been successful there well. A big part of
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: it is Sean delegates a lot and he clues those
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: guy his coaches in on a lot of decisions. They
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: kind of prepare them for their career development, prepare them
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: for the next job. Which is why I think a
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: lot of those coaches have moved on and gotten head
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: coaching jobs because they are prepared for it, even if
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: there maybe their their overall experience wasn't quite where it
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: needed to be yet, but they got a great experience
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: working for a head included them in a lot, lot
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: of decisions and at least how things were made well.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: And I've always thought there should be a wing in
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: our Hall of Fames for these types of guys, that
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: people who have these exceptional family trees, their legacy is
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: as important as winning rings, because people like yourself and
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: myself have benefited so greatly from that, and it's a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: gift we want to pay forward. You want to help
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: the next generation of people to try to achieve their
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: dreams as well, because we don't really control whether we
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: win championships, but we do impact. We do control the
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: impact we can have on people's dreams, goals and objectives.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: And I think some of those people are just have
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: had such exceptional impacts on the game at large by
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: impacting so many human beings who have impacted other human beings,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: And to me, that's as valuable at some level as
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: winning a ring or two. Along the way, we'll come
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: back with us on the other side of the break.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Here we're dusting off Wyatt, producer Why it's coming back,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: New Year, New Questions Q and A from our listeners
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: with producer Wyat on Rosters to Ring Welcome back to
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: Rosterster Rings. Alongside Tom Pulesco, I am Thad Levine. We
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: are now joined by producer Wyatt, who is going to
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: share some of the listeners questions with us. Kick us
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: off Producer Wyatt.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: All right, thank you, Thad. First question is from James
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: in New Jersey. Some players have very involved families or representation,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: while other players are figuring things out on the fly
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: after coming from very little. How do you, as a
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: GM manage those dynamics without overstepping but still protecting the
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: team and the player.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I will see the NFL does a tremendous job
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: of It's basically we call it player engagement, but it's
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: life skills for players coming out of college. So when
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: you're a rookie, your whole rookie year. Every week, every
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: it's usually on Tuesdays, either the club where the NFL
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: is sending different speakers to go over all sorts of
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: different things to try and transition to, you know, transition
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: to the real world, transition to having a real job,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: and the NFL is there's a lot of pressure, a
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: lot of things that go along with it, and we
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: have players coming from all different areas of country, all
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: different thoughts, philosophies, backgrounds, and really trying to just help
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: and educate how to be an adult and how to
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: handle the NFL and then handle all the things that
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: come along with the NFL. And now a lot of
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of agencies they have their own like workshops
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: to do with players. I think most probably agencies probably
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: do that now because as a player you have there's
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of voices in your head between family members, agent,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: your coaches. I mean, our coaches staffs are huge friends.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: So I think a big part of developing players not
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: only developing their talent on the field, but you're trying
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: to develop them off the field to try and give
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: them the resources that they need. You know to be
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: a successful player and really successful father, husband, all that.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: So yeah, NFL does a really good job with that.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: And I wisht MLB they have some programs in place.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: It sounds like the NFL is a little further along.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: Every franchise I've worked with, we tried to hold those
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: seminars for the players to help them out fundamentally why
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: we're not allowed to negotiate directly with players at all,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: so we never were able to really talk contract terms
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: with a player. A number of times in my career
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: I had players approach me and say, Hey, who would
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: you recommend I use as an agent? And my response
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: always was this, I said, go talk to a handful
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: of your teammates, find out the guys that you feel
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: you have similar values, goals, objectives in your career, and
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: then ask who they're represented by, and then make sure
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: you interview two to three of those agents and go
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: with the one that you feel is best aligned with
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: your family's goals, and then we would work with any
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: of those agents. So it's not as if if you
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: sign with a certain guy you're not eligible for an
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: extension with us. We're going to try to work with
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: all the agents if we possibly can. Certainly a number
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: of times in my career I've had players come to
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: me kind of behind the scenes and say, hey, you know,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: regardless of how my agent is posturing here, like, I
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: really want to try to get a deal done. And
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: I think part of the art of negotiation was always
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: negotiating both sides of the deal. So I was negotiating
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: concurrently with an agent, but also with my own owner.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: The agent was negotiating with me, and to a certain extent,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: with his own player, and with the union. We all
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: had to come together to get a deal done, and
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: so I never used any information against a player. I
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: was always working under the assumption we had one common goal,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: and that was to try to get a deal done
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: and have that player secured and playing for my franchise
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: All right, next question, we're going to bring on producer Jason,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: Who's got one for Tom.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Hugh Wyatt.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: Appreciate you know, getting a listener question in this week. Tom,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: I just had to ask you, especially since you gave
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: us such a great breakdown on the Raiders new GM
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 4: coming in, do you just go ahead and Crosby and
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: just pile up the draft picks, man, and start from
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: ground zero. You know what's the philosophy on something like that,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: because I could see it either way, and it's just
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: I just had to ask you since we got young.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you this is the thing. If you try,
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: if you want to trade a player of his magnitude,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: to me, it's just hard to get enough back for
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: what you're losing in the player. You know, someone could
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: give you three first round draft picks, which sounds incredible,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: but odds are ods wild. Tell you're gonna hit on
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: one and a half of them. So you're gonna either
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: hit on two or one of them. And is that
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: player that you hit on, is he going to be
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: an All Pro player? Perennial All Pro in a premium position,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: which is a pass rusher. So Number one, it's just
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: hard to get good value back for someone of that
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: stature that you're releasing. In his case, like and he
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: embodies everything I mean, the GM said it yesterday. He
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: embodies everything that the Raiders stand for. I've never seen
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: anybody practice the way he practices. And I've been in
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: the NFL for thirty to thirty one year, has been
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: around a lot of All pros and Hall of Famers.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: Nobody practices like Max ros I never see anything like it,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: and when he does that, it raises the floor for
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: everybody else on the practice field. So it's just hard
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: to move on from a player like that if you're
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: in a complete rebuild and you just feel like you're
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: going to get enough picks, and to me, it had
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: to be also players. I would need, you know, starting
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: caliber players back that are proven players, not just rely
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: on the draft picks you get. Draft picks are lottery tickets.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: There's no guarantee they're all going to hit. So it
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: would have to be a really big package of starting players,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: hopefully on rookie contracts that they're not overly old, so
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: you know, twenty five years or younger, and then some
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: draft picks. But I'll believe it when I see it.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: If they trade them, I don't know, we'll see, but
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: it have to be a really big package to do it.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: In my mind.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: One thing I'll add there not Max Crosby's specific, but
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: I always found one of the challenges associated with trading
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: a player for draft picks is by trading that player,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: you're actually devaluing the draft picks because your assumption is
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: that player is going to help that team do better.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: Therefore they're going to pick later in the draft. So therefore,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: by definition, those draft picks may be actually worth less
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: than they would have otherwise been.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: Next question is from Cole in Jacksonville. Which NFL turnaround
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: has been the most impressive this season? Patriots, Bears or Jaguars.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: All three teams hired new coaches last year. The Patriots
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: and the Jags were both four and thirteen, the Bears
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: were five and twelve, and all three won their divisions
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: and had double digit wins this season.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're all good, like all three of them.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: You know, for Coach of the Year, you could just
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: pick it out of a hat. They've all done incredible jobs.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: I probably if I had to pick one of I
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: probably would go with New England, not only the head coach,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: but the GM Elliott Wolf. They basically bought a whole
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: new defense in free agency last year. That rarely works,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: but it worked for them because they put they spent
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: the money on the right players, and their defense has
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: been really good. I didn't think they had enough talent
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: on offense around Drake May, and they've had plenty, and
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: Drake May is rolling. So between that and then the
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: culture that Mike Rabel built there just been really impressive.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: The identity that Ben Johnson brought to the Bears has
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: been equally impressive. I mean, they're a running team with
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: a really good offensive line that Bryan Poles has rebuilt,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: and Caleb Williams has been, you know, a little uneven
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: at times, but spectacular when needed. And then you know,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: Jacksonville has been a great story as well. I mean,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: they've really taken Trevor Lawrence and taken some inconsistent highs
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: and lows, and they've all been high in the last
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: six weeks. And he's playing at a really high level.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: And they made a great trade for for the receiver
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: from the Raiders. Jacobe Myers has really helped them out,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: and they brought a new attitude there. So it's three
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: really great situations. But I guess if I had to
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: go with one to be just just New England what
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: they've done there in a short period of time.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: Tom, of those three teams, who do you see making
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: the deepest running the playoffs this year.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: Believe it or not, I would probably say the I'd
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: probably say the Bears right now, I know Jacksonville is good,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: but I think buff I just think Buffalo is really talented.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Buffalo was my pick to go to the Super Bowl.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: I may have forgot to say it in the last show,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: but Buffalo is really good. But I think Chicago is
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: kind of built for the playoffs right now because they
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: run the ball so well, which you know in the
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: playoffs a lot of games are in the elements. It's cold,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: it's windy, and you're going to have to be able
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: to run it when you need to run it. Their
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: offensive line is really good, and Caleb Williams is showing,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: and they don't put the whole offense on KYLEB. Williams shoulders,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: they you know, when they need to play in the
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: fourth quarter. He's produced. But it's been a you know,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: just identity of using multiple running backs. And the defense
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: has improved throughout the year. I wouldn't say it's a
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: super Bowl winning defense in Chicago, but there's definitely been
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: improvement from week one to to the end of the year.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: So I think they're built really well for the playoff
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: Next question is from Sam in Dallas. What's a decision
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: fans may think is simple that is actually one of
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: the hardest calls GMS have to make.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: I'll jump in here. Just as we enter the playoffs.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I imagine that fans think
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: is pretty easy is putting together these playoff rosters in
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. You know, you expand your roster in September,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: you get to go up to twenty eight players. You
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: got to then put together a twenty six man roster
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: for the playoffs. And it looks easy on a piece
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: of paper, It's very difficult, especially those early rounds. Maybe
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: you don't need your fourth or fifth starter on the roster.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: You have key players who have really helped you get there,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: who now of a sudden don't necessarily fit. I think
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: of Clayton Kershaw the first round for the Dodgers. This
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: was going to be his last year. Imagine if somehow
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: they didn't get out of that first round and they
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: didn't have him active, you know, how would that have looked.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of things that factor in beyond
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: just the rational thought associated with building the absolute best roster.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: You're also trying to maintain chemistry, morale, and the culture
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: of your team. And there's some guys who just fit
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: better in helping you get there. There's some guys who
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: fit better in longer series, and then there's some guys
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: who will help you in a sprint. In a short series,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: it's not always the same group of guys, so it
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: leads to some decisions that may leave an eyebrow raise
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: from the fans. The media always makes a huge todu
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: as to who was left off of those rosters. But
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of thought that goes into it. It's
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: not very elementary, and it takes a lot more of
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: our time than you probably think.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I'll answer a little bit of different
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: way exist. But the NFL draft, so making selections for
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: the GM, it's much more complex than just a GM
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: sitting there in a chair by himself and just pointing
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: and just making selections all the way through the draft. Like,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: there's a huge process to it with a lot of people.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: So I think people obviously they associate the GM job
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: with the draft, which is normal. It's probably twenty five
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: percent of the job, very important part. But you're working
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: with a huge amount of people, not only your head
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: coach and the assistant coaches, but you're taking opinions from
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: area scalluts, regional scallots, your directors, and then you're blending
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: in all the data that you have, and then you're
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: blending in all the character work, and then all the
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: medical and the durability psychological testing combine testing all this,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: and you're trying to make decisions on players and then
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: trying to you know, who fits the scheme who doesn't,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: and work with the coaches. So it's a pretty complex
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: decision making process. So in the GM, rightfully, so like
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: if you miss a pick, he gets the everybody comes
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: down to the GM. But obviously there's a lot of
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: picks that that I made that you know, it may
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: have been the people around me kind of really forcing
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: me that direction. Then even myself sometimes it's it's definitely
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: a group effort. It's not just the GM all in one.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: And even like your first round picks that people think
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: are easy to do, like and maybe we over analyze that,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: we probably do, but you know, there's still a lot
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: of picks that aren't easy and in hindsight looks like
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: they're easy, But when you're in the moment in doing it,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: it's not so much so as the GM, you're really
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: you're relying on so many people and so many, so
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: many different sets of information to make a decision on
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: every draft pick.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Well on behalf of Tom Tolesco Producers Wyatt and Jason.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: I'm Dad Levine. Thank you for joining us. Join us
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: every Thursday here on rosters to rings