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Did the American Revolution Really Influence Spanish American Revolutions? · Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 250 Years of the Declaration of Independence

• 0:12
  Speaker 0: The Mexican nation, which for three hundred years has not had its own will nor the free use of its voice rises today from the oppression in which it has lived.
• 0:23
  Speaker 0: The mexican nation solemnly declares through Its supreme junta Of the empire that It is a sovereign nation and independent From old spain.
• 0:33
  Speaker 0: with Which In the future?
• 0:35
  Speaker 0: It Will Not maintain another union but That of A close friendship by international treaties.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: a podcast commemorating the two hundred fifty year anniversary of The Declaration Of Independence!
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: This show is sponsored by the American Centrum in Hamburg Germany And I'm your host Andrew Sola .
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: The series has been pretty Anglo-centric so far which means that it has focused mostly on the United States rarely talked about the United States and Spanish imperial history.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: So today we're going to fill that gap with a deep dive into The Spanish Empire, and Mexican History.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: What was Mexico like in the seventeen hundreds?
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Was there already as strong independent Mexican national identity?
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: And what did Mexicans think of their Spanish king?
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Was he a tyrant like King George or something entirely different?
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And what about those Protestant Anglo neighbors to the north?
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: What did Mexicans think of British-American colonists?
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Looking specifically at the Declaration of Independence, how did Mexicans react to it.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Did they react to that?
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Did the events in this period change their view on the Spanish Empire?
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Of course, in the early eighteen hundreds Latin American nations from Argentina to Colombia to Guatemala declared independence against their imperial ruler as well.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: And Mexico eventually declared independence from Spain in eighteen.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: twenty one now and here's a big.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: but The way I presented this historical narrative is already potentially a problem since the American Declaration of Independence came first And the Latin American declarations came seconds.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: The one must have caused others, right?
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: But is there really a causal relationship between two?
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: There's a tendency among many people in the Anglo-American world to look at these Latin American independence movements as consequence of the American Declaration of Independence.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: but this affair an accurate reading history or is it a simplistic and biased misreading of history?
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: These are all questions about my very favorite topics, empires revolutions in freedom.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: And to make its spicier we have these tricky questions about who tells history.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: And here with me to unpack the history of Latin America, Mexico and The American Declaration Of Independence is a leading expert on Latin-American History.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Roberto Breña.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Bienvenido Roberto.
• 3:47
  Speaker 0: Thank you very much.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Brena is Professor of History at the Center for International Studies At the College of Mexico in Mexico City.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: He has published extensively On The Atlantic World the history of liberalism and revolutions in Latin America.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: So, Professor Braenier great to have you here let's get started by exploring that quotation that you just read from The Mexican Declaration Of Independence From Eighteen Twenty One.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: why did you choose to start this episode on the American Declaration of Independence with Mexican declarations of independence,
• 4:28
  Speaker 0: I will talk about that in a second.
• 4:30
  Speaker 0: But the one i read let's say is the official one The One Who Had Consequences not the first one and I Will explain it A Little Well.
• 4:40
  Speaker 0: And I chose those passages.
• 4:42
  Speaker 0: It was Not That Easy to Find Passages Because The Mexican Declaration Is Very Brief.
• 4:50
  Speaker 0: This Is A Document That Has No More Than Twenty-Five Lines.
• 4:55
  Speaker 0: So I chose those in which the desire to become independent is more explicit.
• 5:04
  Speaker 0: and one of that things i should clarify, at that time Mexico was an empire.
• 5:12
  Speaker 0: Mexico became independent as El Imperio Mexicano or The Mexican Empire.
• 5:19
  Speaker 0: It's true it ended up being less than a year And after that, Mexico became a republic.
• 5:28
  Speaker 0: and except for this second foreign effort to name a foreign emperor.
• 5:36
  Speaker 0: Let's say the last quarter of the nineteenth century, Mexico has been a Republic throughout its entire history.
• 5:44
  Speaker 0: so... This was a parenthesis!
• 5:49
  Speaker 0: It is important to mention it because in what I read the name empire appears, and that means at that time for only nine months almost ten months we were an Empire.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Good so just some follow-up questions... For me it's very interesting because we did an episode on The Irish Declaration of Independence in the first thing that struck to three hundred years, because in the Irish Declaration of Independence they also use that exact number of years.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Three hundred years!
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: So why don't you just explain to the audience why Supreme Junta chose three hundred YEARS for a period of time when they've been oppressed?
• 6:38
  Speaker 0: Yeah and it was not the supreme junta in New Spain or eventually became Mexico who used three-hundred years.
• 6:48
  Speaker 0: This was a figure that was used throughout the whole of Spanish America and The reason is very clear.
• 6:55
  Speaker 0: Very simple, it's the fact that... ...the Spanish Empire in Spanish America began at the beginning of the sixteenth century.
• 7:05
  Speaker 0: So up until the begining of the nineteenth century That would have been almost, almost millimetrically three hundred years In case of New Spain.
• 7:15
  Speaker 0: so It was figured was used by the insurgents at first, those who rose against the Spanish Empire or the Spanish authorities in New Spain.
• 7:29
  Speaker 0: And again every time I say new spain.
• 7:31
  Speaker 0: i'm talking about Mexico but Mexico began to exist in eighteen twenty one.
• 7:35
  Speaker 0: so if we're talking It's like mentioning the name United States or using that.
• 7:47
  Speaker 0: The name united states before seven eighty three, right?
• 7:51
  Speaker 0: You talk about a thirteen colonies
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: so let me just focus on New Spain now.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: So I've been referring to Mexico as Mexico and indeed in seventeen seventy six we would be referring To Mexico.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: is new spain?
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: And did it roughly have the same boundaries that it has now?
• 8:13
  Speaker 0: Oh, no.
• 8:15
  Speaker 0: The boundaries went to the north all the way toward I would say is more or less let's say in the middle of the United States talking from south-to-north and In the western part of the united states It will go even farther.
• 8:36
  Speaker 0: It is important to remember that in the war of eighteen forty eight Eighteen forty six Mexico lost more than half its territory, too The United States and this is exactly the territory.
• 8:48
  Speaker 0: I'm talking about
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: so To what extent are?
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: the citizens of New Spain In the seventeen hundreds Considering themselves citizens of new spain Or do they have more of an identity That's associated with being a Spanish colony?
• 9:10
  Speaker 0: Yeah, well they were not citizens.
• 9:12
  Speaker 0: They were subjects of the Spanish king.
• 9:15
  Speaker 0: so and that's a huge difference The term citizen was NOT THE TERM THAT IT WAS USED BECAUSE THEY CONSIDERED THEMSELF SUBJECTS NOT CITIZENS.
• 9:27
  Speaker 0: Citizens...and the whole concept of citizenship acquired with the age of revolutions acquired an entity that has had since then, in the Western world at least.
• 9:40
  Speaker 0: But that was not the case in the eighteenth century in many
• 9:44
  Speaker 0: places.".
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Let me rephrase the question and I'll do a comparison with like The Commonwealth of Virginia right?
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: By you know even the seventeen fifties we would say In The Commonwealth Of Virginia there is very strong local identity as being part Right?
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: To what extent are we having the strong local sense of identity within New Spain.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: So, you know a Virginia planner would say I'm from Virginia...I am not part of London or British person per se!
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I'm a British subject technically but my primary sense of Identity is to The Colony Of Virginia.
• 10:32
  Speaker 0: Okay well this complicated and of true subject identity that you're talking about, Andrew.
• 10:40
  Speaker 0: It's very difficult to say what would come first if you asked a new Spaniard at the end... let's say in middle-of-the-seventeenth century or the middle of the sixteenth century Or the Middle of the eighteenth century.
• 10:59
  Speaker 0: What will be their first response?
• 11:01
  Speaker 0: I think it would have varied.
• 11:03
  Speaker 0: but In any case New Spain, that is also an important issue.
• 11:09
  Speaker 0: The fact that New Spain was the richest and most populated of the territories in which the Spanish Empire was divided.
• 11:19
  Speaker 0: it Was let's say the gem of the crown.
• 11:22
  Speaker 0: And in that regard Let's say that Identity in new spain would have been by the beginning of the nineteenth century stronger than another Spanish-American territory For example, El Virreinato de Rio de la Plata.
• 11:38
  Speaker 0: What is today Argentina?
• 11:41
  Speaker 0: Well it began its existence in seventeen seventy-six that is forty years before the Spanish American independence movements begin.
• 11:53
  Speaker 0: and if thats a case well that means to have an identity as member of the vice royalty at the beginning of the nineteenth century, was almost unthinkable.
• 12:07
  Speaker 0: That wasn't a case with the vice-royalty in New Spain because that vice royalty had been in existence for almost three hundred years.
• 12:16
  Speaker 0: so uh...that changes alot from one Spanish American territory to another.
• 12:21
  Speaker 0: but in any case trying to answer your question I would say that the Vice Royalty of New Spain is very probably Let's say a stronger identity, but we should be very careful with the word identity because as you very well know independence Doesn't mean in the case of almost all other countries.
• 12:46
  Speaker 0: We're talking about during the age of revolutions Independence doesn't need that a nation already existed.
• 12:53
  Speaker 0: then nations had to be built.
• 12:56
  Speaker 0: The fact that the French used so much the term Nation or the concept nation if you want maybe misleading in the sense that Nations In Spanish America, Or what would become Latin America?
• 13:12
  Speaker 0: in The second half of the Nineteenth century because before they had second-half Let's say the middle of the nineteenth century.
• 13:19
  Speaker 0: The term latin america was not used.
• 13:21
  Speaker 0: but in any case to start Start talking about identity let in a Mexican case for example A while ago, I mentioned the war against the United States.
• 13:31
  Speaker 0: One of the most important historical events that cemented Mexican identity would be the War with The United States.
• 13:38
  Speaker 0: but we're talking here in the middle of the nineteenth century
• 13:41
  Speaker 0: i.e.,
• 13:42
  Speaker 0: thirty years after we became independent.
• 13:45
  Speaker 0: so nation was still a long way ahead.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: All right you mention number things there to follow up on.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: You mentioned that New Spain was the jewel in The Crown of the wider Spanish Empire.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so can you just quickly describe what the economy Of new spain?
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Was like at the time?
• 14:09
  Speaker 0: well domain commodity Mexican silver made from at least for a least century Made the Spanish empire work and I'm not exaggerating this regard.
• 14:23
  Speaker 0: Carlos Marichal has very clearly show that Mexican silver, let's say I'm talking about the Mexican Silver.
• 14:32
  Speaker 0: The silver of New Spain was crucial for the workings
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: new Spanish traders or merchants dealing with the thirteen American colonies, Or are these kind of like separate trade networks?
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Do they interact ever.
• 15:02
  Speaker 0: The Caribbean is a commercial melting pot by let's say definition.
• 15:10
  Speaker 0: so of course traders from
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: All
• 15:13
  Speaker 0: of the three most important empires at that time,
• 15:16
  Speaker 0: i.e.,
• 15:17
  Speaker 0: British Empire, French Empire and Spanish Empire.
• 15:21
  Speaker 0: Of course they made a lot of transaction in the Caribbean way before the eighteenth century.
• 15:28
  Speaker 0: I think it was the eightteenth century when things reached its peak Even even beginning of the nineteenth century.
• 15:38
  Speaker 0: But as you very well know The eighteenth century is very much defined in military terms.
• 15:46
  Speaker 0: And if that's the case, well... Military issues affect a direct economic or commercial issue but in any case transactions went all directions for sure.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: So you would expect to see major ports and colonies Philadelphia Boston & New York trading with colonies in New Spain, after pretty directly.
• 16:11
  Speaker 0: Yes we should be very careful with this regard because the Spanish Empire up until seventeen seventy-eight and that is only thirty years before independence movements began was a very closed system And... The way we conceived commerce at the twenty first century has nothing to do With the way in which commerce was conceived in the eighteenth century though
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Why don't you just give me an example of a difference that's important?
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah,
• 16:42
  Speaker 0: well for the Spanish crown only certain ports in Spanish America could make trade with Only Certain Ports In The Spanish Peninsula Let's say in the mother country.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: That
• 16:56
  Speaker 0: began to change in seventeen seventy eight but up until that time it was very close commercial system and Up Until the Very End.
• 17:08
  Speaker 0: It's no coincidence that one of the most important demands in almost all their territories, especially those with ports was the fact they were tired from this very tight control that the Spanish
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Crown had
• 17:24
  Speaker 0: regarding commercial issues.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that you mentioned because one of the major points we see, the major grievances against King George in The Declaration Of Independence is his restriction on trade and this is what infuriates the planters in Virginia and the merchants in Boston and Philadelphia as much as anything else – King George really restricts their right to trade with whomever Basically, whenever and this does set off a lot of the grievances.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: And I just mentioned King George.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: There are different Spanish kings throughout the eighteenth century.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: How would you describe?
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: The relationship between these subjects of New Spain and their king?
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: and in A second question within that is there were like You know in in the thirteen colonies.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: they're colonists who are more on the kind of radical side.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Of we really want more independence and freedom, And then on the other side there were very conservative loyalist.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Who're like?
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: We have full faith in King George and the monarchy.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: So it's a political situation In New Spain kinda Like that with The relationship With their Kings.
• 18:45
  Speaker 0: Now I would say That in general terms The subjects in Spanish America Were Very Loyal.
• 18:53
  Speaker 0: What was it that began the emancipation processes or independence process, if you want?
• 19:00
  Speaker 0: Was the fact that Napoleon invaded Spain in eighteen oh eight and he took The King of Swain Fernando Septimo to French territory.
• 19:13
  Speaker 0: And he wasn't a castle but still a prisoner In a Castle But Still A Prisoner!
• 19:23
  Speaker 0: All of the Spanish-American territories, without any exception was to consider Fernando Septimó del King and therefore rejecting not only Napoleon but Napoleon named his older brother Joseph king of Spain.
• 19:41
  Speaker 0: And all of the spanish territory rejected The New French King.
• 19:47
  Speaker 0: all of them supported Fernando Septimo as the only legitimate king in the Spanish Empire.
• 19:55
  Speaker 0: And that event, not the invasion but what transpired after it was triggered by the emancipation process.
• 20:10
  Speaker 0: For a couple years, all of the Spanish-American territories remained loyal to Fernando Septimos But then in one thousand eight hundred eleven, some territories began to realize that this was a very good opportunity to separate from Spain.
• 20:30
  Speaker 0: And the first declaration of independence was the Declaration of Venezuela In July of eighteen eleven.
• 20:38
  Speaker 0: but there are more than three years between the Spanish people in Madrid against French troops, more than three years between that and declaration of independence.
• 20:56
  Speaker 0: That's a long time!
• 20:57
  Speaker 0: And for almost all those periods... The vast majority of Spanish Americans wanted to continue belonging with the Spanish Empire.
• 21:08
  Speaker 0: They want to be subject to Fernando Septimo And that's a huge difference with what happened in the Thirteen Colonies.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, so sort of final for me just basic difference between British Anglo-North American colonies and Spanish New Spain and others is of course the British North American colonies are... Protestant, except for Maryland and all of the Spanish colonies are Catholic.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: So what were maybe some of the important points to remember about these differences?
• 21:55
  Speaker 0: Our religion played a very important role in the spanish-american independence movements.
• 22:01
  Speaker 0: In fact when you take a look at The two decoration of Independence
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Of
• 22:09
  Speaker 0: New Spain or Mexico if you want, very soon you would realize the weight of religion in both declarations.
• 22:20
  Speaker 0: And by the way I will say just a few things about the first type of declarations that...I said it while ago and was going to say something but didn't see....or i haven't seen so..that to begin with religion ...in the catholic religion of course.
• 22:37
  Speaker 0: what's important for the Spanish Empire and their role that The Church played during almost three hundred years of Spanish dominance or the dominance of the Spanish empire in Spanish America was fundamental, very many respects not only politically but also socially and in educational terms.
• 23:03
  Speaker 0: So this is an aspect For someone coming from a Protestant country, maybe not that easy to understand.
• 23:13
  Speaker 0: The role and the weight of religion played in Spain and consequently in Spanish America.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Good!
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna come back later because i do want to explore another abstruse concept which is how people thought about freedom.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I started by talking about the fact that we can think of the American work of independence as a precursor to Latin-American independence movements, and this might not actually be accurate at all.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: And indeed you've already mentioned some historical points which should give us pause here—that we shouldn't have thought of the Declaration on Independence being too influential on Latin America, and you've already indicated that the invasion of Spain by Napoleon was much more important as a causal factor than anything else despite the fact they were still sort-of had their allegiance to The King.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Now I think it's important.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: if we just talk about this theory the American Declaration of Independence was so important, so influential in Latin America.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: And maybe some reasons why you think that we should look at it from a different perspective?
• 24:38
  Speaker 0: Yeah well I think this um... In the last years It has A book that David Armitage wrote in two thousand seven Calling uh The Declaration Of Independence and Global History.
• 24:54
  Speaker 0: It has had a lot of influence.
• 24:59
  Speaker 0: In order to consider the Spanish-American declarations as using the word that Armitage uses in his book, considering the American Declaration on Independence as a model... Well I've read all these declarations of independence from Spanish America and i can tell you A couple of them may have used, and I insist on May Have Used because intellectual history has shown us.
• 25:32
  Speaker 0: Let's say at least intellectual history during the last fifty years has shown that we had to be very careful with this notion... Very much used a certain moment in the History Of Ideas' notion of influence.
• 25:49
  Speaker 0: We'd have to be really careful when using the term influence.
• 25:53
  Speaker 0: That was not the case fifty years ago, but now we should be careful
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: and
• 25:58
  Speaker 0: I think
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: that
• 25:59
  Speaker 0: again...I've read almost all of them i think out-of-the Spanish American declarations of independence and in some of them a few of them..i can see some influence ,but in ...I would say that in the majority of them ..I don't see the presence this category that is so important for intellectual history nowadays, and it's the category of context.
• 26:31
  Speaker 0: The contexts were so different regarding the Spanish-American independence movements vis a vis the context of the independence in the United States or the Thirteen Colonies... That if the context was THAT different I don't think that the fact these declarations of independence are that different should surprise us.
• 26:56
  Speaker 0: It only can surprise if we sort-of assume or accept propositions like the ones Armitage makes in his book, you know?
• 27:05
  Speaker 0: If we accept those assumptions regarding this omnipresence on American Declaration of Independence well then it might strike as These documents, many of these documents it's very difficult to trace the influence of the declaration American Declaration of Seventy-Six.
• 27:30
  Speaker 0: On the other hand and really is also if you want to find influences You will find influence.
• 27:38
  Speaker 0: so my point Is that?
• 27:39
  Speaker 0: If you don't assume That is if you don't accept certain assumptions like the assumptions made by an armadage You will not be surprised at all that they are not similar and some in fact Are very, very different from the declaration of independence of the United States.
• 27:58
  Speaker 0: but again Yeah
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Well, you know history is about telling stories And having narratives.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I just want to maybe raise one or more assumptions.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: an American citizen would have learned in school, and that would be sort of the universal rights expressed on first lines for the American Declaration.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: That all men are created equal?
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: That they had the alienable right to life-liberty or pursuit happiness?
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Is this like shining light at founding fathers of America
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: lit?".
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: And then eventually it made its way Through the rest of the world starting in Venezuela and eighteen eleven, then you're even France before that.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: And one on.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: so So like this concept of All men being created equal That is not a driving force In the Latin American independence movements You're saying?
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: That's wrong assumption.
• 28:58
  Speaker 0: well two things to begin with natural
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: rights
• 29:01
  Speaker 0: was The most common of these courses in the eighteenth century No?
• 29:05
  Speaker 0: We're not talking here about human rights.
• 29:07
  Speaker 0: That is a twenty-th century thing, we are talking to hear about natural rights and that was part of the cultural ideological ambience or enlightenment.
• 29:18
  Speaker 0: so there's nothing original in it.
• 29:20
  Speaker 0: no And I would recommend let say authors like Gary Wills Or authors like Pauline Meyer.
• 29:29
  Speaker 0: They have studied the Declaration of Independence and they have very clearly shown that it is not as original, for example an author like Armitage pretends.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: No?
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Okay let's explore another assumption... And now maybe I'm just talking about my own assumptions!
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there are common amongst historians or armitages The concept of local control.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: so groups of people, local cultures should not give away or have their control.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Of their own affairs be conducted by some distant parliamentary body or distant King.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Local control the independence of these communities.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: they write to make decisions for themselves Again.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: is that shining light?
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: That the American founders lit and spread its way through Latin
• 30:22
  Speaker 0: America?
• 30:24
  Speaker 0: what that was an argument used in two or three of the Spanish-American documents.
• 30:29
  Speaker 0: I mean, i'm talking about the geographical issue—the distance by itself without any further arguments.
• 30:39
  Speaker 0: Geography tells us that we should be
• 30:43
  Speaker 0: independent."
• 30:45
  Speaker 0: That is true but it's not very commonly used that use their argument, no?
• 30:58
  Speaker 0: We are so distant from Spain.
• 31:01
  Speaker 0: That we should become independent but it was not... It's not common that I can tell you!
• 31:06
  Speaker 0: It is not common in the Spanish-American dependence on an argument.
• 31:11
  Speaker 0: I have seen this argument many papers and documents But declarations of independence.
• 31:19
  Speaker 0: only two of them used that argument.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Let me rephrase Tirely from the geography perspective.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: It's more of the idea that Local people should have control over their own lives.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: so local assemblies this idea of taxation without representation.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: We shouldn't be taxed by if we don't have any say in The taxation.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: and again, that only appears once in the Declaration of Independence.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: it's not this huge grievance That is repeated a lot but again I'm talking about sort of.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: We're talking about intellectual history now.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: The dominant things that you would be taught as an American school child is this idea of local control,
• 32:02
  Speaker 0: well our own affairs.
• 32:04
  Speaker 0: I don't perceive that in Spanish-American territories throughout the eighteenth century and there's a reason for that...the way which does British Empire works politically is very different from the way in which the Spanish, and the workings of the Spanish-American Empire.
• 32:28
  Speaker 0: So the importance of assemblies—and local assemblies —and their capacity to take decisions or make decisions was far away.
• 32:43
  Speaker 0: That being the case in Spanish America, that was not a case.
• 32:49
  Speaker 0: It wasn't much more centralized
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: empire
• 32:52
  Speaker 0: and it's an empire which did not expect subjects to make or take important decisions.
• 33:00
  Speaker 0: And that, I think explains a lot of things regarding the future both in the United States as an independent country and other Latin American countries.
• 33:10
  Speaker 0: Or Spanish-American countries later Latin American Countries because let's say that spanish-american territories had no experience at all with The Republican system and with representative institutions.
• 33:26
  Speaker 0: very it was limited experience in that regard and That was not the case.
• 33:33
  Speaker 0: In The United States.
• 33:34
  Speaker 0: So therefore, the transition let's say it Was a smooth Transition because you were used to that kinds on.
• 33:41
  Speaker 0: I see you Because You are American although your this interview with your in Germany now.
• 33:47
  Speaker 0: but in any Case This is A very important element To explain the future of both Countries that the stability in one case And the instability in the other.
• 33:57
  Speaker 0: We didn't have any experience at all with many of the institutions that were created within Dependence and we paid a very high price for them.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Can you just elaborate on it?
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: A little bit more, can you explain what do mean by this?
• 34:12
  Speaker 0: Yeah because in Spanish-American territories and of course New Spain is included or Mexico is included... ...we became republics with independence except Well, Brazil is another... it's a completely different case in this regard and I mean many others i would say but in any case.
• 34:34
  Speaker 0: In the case of Mexico we only had these very brief parenthesis on an empire for ten months And after that we became republics.
• 34:44
  Speaker 0: since then We've been a republic And those institutions Republican institutions If you want them to work representative institutions in general,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: and a
• 34:57
  Speaker 0: representative let's say political culture has to exist.
• 35:01
  Speaker 0: In order for that system to work well... That did not exist!
• 35:05
  Speaker 0: ...in the spanish-american territories.
• 35:08
  Speaker 0: And therefore of course if from one day to another you adopt a system that presupposes A series of aspects that You don't have any experience almost Any experience with them?
• 35:21
  Speaker 0: Well..You will pay the price.
• 35:23
  Speaker 0: and politically speaking, I mean.
• 35:25
  Speaker 0: And we did pay the price.
• 35:27
  Speaker 0: just look at the political disability in the region for At least the first half of the nineteenth century but many countries during the whole nineteenth Century.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Okay let me ask you a slightly more complicated question then.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: so again I accept the point that a lot of the assumptions that Anglo-Americans make about the influence on the Declaration of Independence requires more context, as you said.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Some of these ideals we see in The American Declaration don't map to Latin America well at all.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: but now You just mentioned something That i thought does so.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: when they do declare independence They choose A model To adopt And it is a representative democratic model.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Could you not argue that came from the United States?
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah,
• 36:21
  Speaker 0: no in that sense of course there's an influence on those American political system in their drafting many constitutions and the Spanish-American territories or Latin-American territory.
• 36:35
  Speaker 0: but the chronological precedence explains.
• 36:41
  Speaker 0: chronological precedence by itself does not mean or should not be a causal relationship, cause and effect.
• 36:51
  Speaker 0: I think we should be very careful in that regard because i've seen this alot from some of the experts on the atlantic revolutions just because certain chronological presidents they try to establish series of causal connections.
• 37:06
  Speaker 0: but my view is it doesn't work well Not even, not between the Spanish-American independence of the thirteen colonies and the French Revolution.
• 37:19
  Speaker 0: Less so with Haitian independence movement or revolution.
• 37:25
  Speaker 0: I would say it might be better to say a revolution because the Haitian Independence Movement was not... Haitian Revolution wasn't an independence movement but until the very end of it And moreso regarding the Spanish American independence movements.
• 37:40
  Speaker 0: I think we should be very cautious regarding those sequences that certain authors, mostly Anglophone authors established between... there's only one revolution that goes from Philadelphia to Paris.
• 37:54
  Speaker 0: From Paris to Saint-Domingue and from Saint-dermain to all the capitals in Spanish America.
• 38:02
  Speaker 0: We shouldn't be very careful with these kind of sequences.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Good!
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: And i agree.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: So let's go back to New Spain and just think a little bit more about New Spain.
• 38:14
  Speaker 0: Okay, yes one thing I had to mention since the beginning of our conversation Andrew was the fact that The eighteen twenty-one declaration of independence was not the only Declaration of Independence in new spain.
• 38:27
  Speaker 0: there was a precedent Eight years before, that is in eighteen thirteen.
• 38:33
  Speaker 0: And this was the declaration of independence made by insurgents who were fighting against Spanish authorities in New Spain.
• 38:43
  Speaker 0: Insurgents with Spanish crown and Spanish authority in New spain termed or defined as rebels.
• 38:51
  Speaker 0: That has some connections to the case within the thirteen colonies because When they drafted that Declaration of Independence, and it's never called a declaration by the way but in any case... They did not want to be considered rebels.
• 39:06
  Speaker 0: And they gave many reasons, twenty-seven in particular why George III has gone against let say historic relationship, our compact that they had established since the very beginning and those twenty-seven elements explained by themselves.
• 39:27
  Speaker 0: You're a tyrant if you are a tyron we're not rebels.
• 39:31
  Speaker 0: therefore we want to be independent in that regard.
• 39:36
  Speaker 0: there some of course let me clear about this I'm not saying possible connections regarding certain issues between the American declarations of independence and some of Spanish-American declarations.
• 39:52
  Speaker 0: In general terms, I am very skeptical about assuming this position that there was a very important presence or an influence even less if we talk about causality.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: So how did the insurgents in Mexico, what kind of people are they?
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Are these like wealthy people like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington who have all this land.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: And All this political power already?
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: or you know Who are these insurgent in New Mexico?
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: well
• 40:30
  Speaker 0: new Mexican insurgencies.
• 40:31
  Speaker 0: a very peculiar insurgency because it was the only insurgency in a whole Spanish America that was directed by priests.
• 40:40
  Speaker 0: At first Miguel Hidalgo and then José María Morales, And that very much defined The Mexican Insurgency up until the very end.
• 40:53
  Speaker 0: That to begin with if two priests In this case are the ones who were directing and controlling up to a certain point the insurgency in this case, in New Spain that will very much define the whole movement.
• 41:12
  Speaker 0: In political ideological or social terms because these were priests who are very orthodox.
• 41:21
  Speaker 0: in religious terms we're not talking here about.
• 41:24
  Speaker 0: I think the word in English is defruct, right?
• 41:27
  Speaker 0: Or something like that.
• 41:28
  Speaker 0: Priests...that was not the case at all with Miguel Hidalgo and José María Morelos.
• 41:34
  Speaker 0: They were very traditional priests.
• 41:36
  Speaker 0: No In fact The only insurgency in the whole Spanish America That was against a decision taken by the Cortes of Cádiz in Spain Regarding the abolition or the inquisition.
• 41:51
  Speaker 0: It wasn't Mexican insurgencies.
• 41:53
  Speaker 0: That gives you an idea of how traditional the Mexican insurgency was.
• 41:59
  Speaker 0: But in any case, what is important at this point?
• 42:03
  Speaker 0: for me to be very clear that we do not have only one declaration of independence and that's when I read it as a beginning of this conversation There.
• 42:14
  Speaker 0: another one preceded.
• 42:16
  Speaker 0: in eight years It was declared by The Mexican Insurgents that they declared this independence at the end of eighteen thirteen precisely, when they were beginning to lose power.
• 42:33
  Speaker 0: To loose military presence and power since the beginning of rebellion in eighteen ten up until the end.
• 42:43
  Speaker 0: but it's not paradoxical or curious That exactly at the moment that they declare independence, They were beginning to lose clouds let's say.
• 42:56
  Speaker 0: And in eighteen fourteen Morelos is captured and in eighteen fifteen he was executed as Hidalgo was executed in eighteen eleven.
• 43:08
  Speaker 0: So by eighteen fifteen The Mexican insurgency Is a very weakened insurgency.
• 43:14
  Speaker 0: One of the main persons responsible for this weakness military from the Royal Army, Spanish royal army and that is Agustín de Turbide.
• 43:26
  Speaker 0: He was a person who in eighteen-twenty changes sides and decides that New Spain should be independent but he fought against the Mexicans insurgents for many years.
• 43:41
  Speaker 0: That is one of the aspects that people, who are not acquainted with Mexican independence process may find difficult to understand and it's a very complex situation.
• 43:52
  Speaker 0: The person who consummated independence in eighteen twenty-one was One of most important militaries Who went against the mexican insurgents from since beginning of rebellion up until eighteen twenty eighteen nineteen eighteen twenty
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, well of course people are people.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: They change their minds as things change.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: and i'm thinking specifically now another example from the American Revolution.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: that's Benedict Arnold who went from being a rebel to be loyalist so a traitor in other respect.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: but when you look at history of the thirteen colonies maybe I'm inching closer and closer to this idea of independence.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: And it doesn't all happen at once, individuals are changing their minds over the course of years until there enough them who will agree with same thing?
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: It's very much a long-term political process.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: So my question for you is You've mentioned two different Mexican declarations.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: As an intellectual historian, do you see inevitable movement from a certain point of time that indicates that yes Mexico will one day be free?
• 45:21
  Speaker 0: Well I would begin by saying there's nothing inevitable in history.
• 45:26
  Speaker 0: That to begin with As in life, as if the person of love which one of us there's nothing available.
• 45:32
  Speaker 0: This is very famous dictum that only thing that it's inevitable are two things taxes and death.
• 45:39
  Speaker 0: That to begin with.
• 45:40
  Speaker 0: but But my point is that?
• 45:44
  Speaker 0: The case of it will be this peculiar because he was a one of the most successful Spanish military against insurgents.
• 45:57
  Speaker 0: It was in eighteen twenty, when the Liberals came back to power.
• 46:01
  Speaker 0: In Spain and of course the Cortes of Madrid or Congress if you want in Madrid started making some decision on taking legal actions regarding military and church and landowners that it would be changed sides.
• 46:22
  Speaker 0: He was a military, he was very sympathetic to the church and religion in general And he was a landowner.
• 46:30
  Speaker 0: so he was going to be affected evidently by measures that were being decided In the liberal courtes of Madrid.
• 46:38
  Speaker 0: That's another point I haven't mentioned because it hasn't come out.
• 46:43
  Speaker 0: but The truth is The arrival of liberalism in Spain, the Spanish-liberal constitution was very important for how and when things happened.
• 47:10
  Speaker 0: That was not the case in all of their territories.
• 47:12
  Speaker 0: Not all of the Spanish-American territories followed the Cádiz constitution, but several among them two most important vice royalties that is New Spain and Peru decided to go along with a courtesan or cádiz because they wanted it to continue being part of the spanish empire.
• 47:31
  Speaker 0: no?
• 47:31
  Speaker 0: That Spanish-American historiographies or Latin American historiography is historiographers do not mention very often but the truth Is that a lot of Spanish Americans?
• 47:44
  Speaker 0: Wanted to continue being part other Spanish Empire.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 47:50
  Speaker 0: The wars of independence, or of emancipation in spanish America are mainly Civil Wars and there's civil war for a very simple reason because the percentage of peninsular Spaniards in the Spanish-American territory was very, very limited.
• 48:09
  Speaker 0: So they had to be civil wars and that began with... We're not talking here about liberation wars we are talking about Civil Wars.
• 48:18
  Speaker 0: but it's a case of New Spain for example.
• 48:21
  Speaker 0: if you begin in eighteen ten It went all the way up until eighteen twenty one to become independent.
• 48:28
  Speaker 0: With that very few amount of troops Spanish troops and of Spanish or peninsular inhabitants, in principle it would have been very easy for New Spain to become independent.
• 48:42
  Speaker 0: One other reasons why that didn't happen—and Peru is exactly the same thing was a very simple...in my view…a very simple conclusion!
• 48:51
  Speaker 0: And there are many new Spaniards who did not want to be independent.
• 48:58
  Speaker 0: but You can imagine that for Latin American historiographies, it doesn't sound very well.
• 49:08
  Speaker 0: But to me after studying these processes more than a quarter of the century... That is one clear and evident conclusion One of many conclusions you could
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: arrive at.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Well, as you were saying that I was thinking immediately about a new trend maybe in Studies of the American Revolution.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: That is really considering it also a civil war.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: It was not a War of Independence As much as we should be Considering at The first American Civil War and i just want to mention this because it goes back To what exactly What You Were Saying.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: There Is no Influence Factor on the specific dynamics of The British Thirteen Colonies, it was just simply that some people in the British American colonies wanted to be independent and some didn't.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: And hence you have deep conflicts that lead to civil
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: war.".
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: That's exactly how we were describing say Peru but they had nothing do with each other except characteristic happens to be present in both, and I think that's one of the big takeaways.
• 50:37
  Speaker 0: They finally decide that they want to become independent.
• 50:42
  Speaker 0: I've been very critical of this perspective regarding Hidalgo and Morelos in the sense, since it's their first day—that is, the sixteenth of September of eighteen-ten—they knew exactly what they wanted... ...and that they wanted them becoming independent.
• 50:57
  Speaker 0: In my view… That was not a case.
• 51:01
  Speaker 0: Regarding Hidalgot up until the end he didn't clear in this regard.
• 51:07
  Speaker 0: Morelos was clear, but he was clear from let's say the big at the end of eighteen twelve The beginning of eight and thirteen that when he very clearly decides for independence.
• 51:19
  Speaker 0: But since a very begining on the rebellion That is September eighteen ten up until the end Of eighteen twelve Beginner eighteen thirteen He didn't things.
• 51:30
  Speaker 0: Things were not that clear And it's and its Very normal Because I mean, what is a revolution if not the absolute... It's The World Turned Upside Down in this very famous phrase by Christopher Hill regarding the English Revolution.
• 51:45
  Speaker 0: Well!
• 51:46
  Speaker 0: If things turn upside down it's very difficult very difficult to have things perfectly clear in the sense that you know exactly where your heading, In political terms.
• 51:57
  Speaker 0: I think there are a few examples of history That has this clarity since the beginning.
• 52:03
  Speaker 0: For example Lenin would be one of those exceptions Since he had very clearly what he wanted And the nineteen oh five revolution was useful.
• 52:17
  Speaker 0: He knew those terrors that shouldn't be made again in nineteen seventeen.
• 52:22
  Speaker 0: But Lenin is exceptional, in many senses and the case of The Haitian Revolution to Saint Luverture up until the very end And you see that his last letters when he was a prisoner in France... ...he did not want to separate
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: from friends.
• 52:42
  Speaker 0: So, it's not an... In Alguan Morelos are no exception.
• 52:46
  Speaker 0: Except again, except if you assume that revolutionaries have things very clearly in their heads since the beginning.
• 52:54
  Speaker 0: but that is almost never I would say.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Fascinating!
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: Roberto thank-you so much.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: You've really clarified to me.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: sometimes from a Anglo American perspective we do overemphasize the primacy, the central importance of The American Declaration Of Independence in the history of the Western Hemisphere and also the History of the World.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: And I think maybe for me one of the lessons that i'm taking from this episode as we think about the two hundred fifty year anniversary of The american declaration of independence is to be a little bit humble in how important it Is.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: so That's my takeaway.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: um but Roberto ask all My guests for them to reflect on the Declaration of Independence,
• 53:53
  Speaker 0: two hundred fifty years in in the political, ideological and intellectual history of world.
• 54:18
  Speaker 0: At beginning mainly the western world but at end whole world.
• 54:22
  Speaker 0: That being said I also think that humbleness and scepticism should play a role.
• 54:31
  Speaker 0: We can accept importance and the transcendence At the very same time, we humble and skeptical regarding its purported influence because I think as the Spanish-American declarations of independence show there was a presence in some cases.
• 54:57
  Speaker 0: But it wasn't an absence.
• 55:01
  Speaker 0: but let's say that they did not consider in some case at all the American Declaration of Independence in their declarations of independence.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: So
• 55:12
  Speaker 0: I think we should be just careful and cautious, let's say humble and skeptical regarding to position that certain Anglophon historians
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: have adopted.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Roberto Breña thank you very much.
• 55:29
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• 56:21
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• 56:51
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