Latest / The Wilmac Wire / Joe Gianni | Motivational Intelligence, the Science of Leadership, & Building a Business

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Joe Gianni | Motivational Intelligence, the Science of Leadership, & Building a Business · The Wilmac Wire

• speaker-0: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, welcome, or welcome back to the WilmacWire. Thank you so much for being here and joining us today. Now, today's guest on the WilmacWire is someone who's been in Wilmac's orbit for over 30 years, long before this podcast existed, long before a lot of what Wilmac is today existed, maybe even before I existed. So it felt long over two to get him on the show. Today we're sitting down with Joe Gianni, CEO and president of Two Logical, the motivational intelligence company, who which is based right here in Rochester, New York, but operates globally. I have had the pleasure to know Joe over my five-year plus tenure now at Wilmac. but it was really fun to kind of put him in the hot seat because very often I've we've heard him and interacted with him when he's speaking to our team or coaching us individually. so to get to ask him questions and dig into his line of thinking was a ton of fun. So here's what you can expect to hear about in today's episode. We discussed Joe's career journey from Long Island to Rochester, from McMillan publishing to founding his own company in Too Logical. We discussed what Toological does and what motivational intelligence actually is. Because most people know IQ, most people know EQ, but MQ. Is the piece that that Joe argues changes everything for for your future. So we also discuss what high MQ leadership looks like in practice and how it varies across industries and why it matters a lot right now. And of course, you know we had to touch on the Will Mac and two logical story, 30 plus years of of partnership and kind of what it's looked like. Joe and Steve work very closely together still to this day. so it was a lot of fun to kind of dig into that personal side of Wilmac. thank you so much to Joe for joining us on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure getting to work with him over the years and we look forward to continue seeing success with two logical. So I'll turn it over to today's episode of the Wilmac Wire. Welcome to the Will MacWire. I'm Emily Miller, joined by my co-host, Steve McDonnell. On this show, we talk with the drivers, the leaders, innovators, and decision makers pushing customer interaction technology and AI forward. And because we're proud to call Western New York home, we also spotlight the drivers in our own community, the people and organizations shaping growth and innovation right here. Let's get into it. All right, he's originally from East Islip, Long Island, and now a proud Rochester resident for over 40 years. He started his career at McMillan Publishing, becoming the youngest regional sales manager in company history. He left to found Two Logical in 1986 and has been building it ever since. He's a pioneer of motivational intelligence, a framework now used by 40% of the Fortune 500 across 95 countries. His company's been named a global top 20 training company for three years running, and he's been a friend of Will Mack. For over thirty years. Welcome to the Will MacWire, Joe Gianni. speaker-1: Yeah. Thank you, Emily. Thank you, Steve. It's a great pleasure to be here with you. speaker-0: Thanks for joining us in the studio, Joe. It's it's lovely to be here in person with you. speaker-1: Yes, thank you. speaker-0: So before we jump into kind of our themes of today's discussion, we always like to do a little icebreaker that we call this or that. So I have three questions for you. Each one's gonna have two options. You choose your preference and go ahead. Explain why. nothing too difficult. okay, first one. Rochester in the summer or Rochester in the fall? speaker-1: So I learned very early on out of the gate that you have to get into every season to live here and which we do. So we do summer stuff, we boat, we water ski, in the wintertime we snow ski, we snowmobile. So I love both. I think I love the summer the most. so that that would be my choice. speaker-0: Well know we were just talking about what we were doing over the fort and being able to go down to your cottage or go to the finger lakes or something like that. It is it is a lovely scene. speaker-2: Joe Joe's right on Lake Ontario, so Okay. speaker-0: Nice. Yeah. Beautiful. Nice area. speaker-1: Well you know, in upstate New York is really truly a best kept secret. you know, when people ever come and they're like, my gosh, they've never realized it's so beautiful, thousand islands. I mean speaker-0: Very consistent theme. You'll notice I did not put Rochester in the winter is what I'm But it sounds like you do enjoy the winter months. speaker-2: It's like winter third. And what spring I don't speaker-1: Yeah, we don't have a spray. Yeah. It's just super wet. speaker-2: Then boom. speaker-0: Yep. Then really hot. okay. Next one speaking in front of a crowd or one on one coaching. speaker-1: Again, you hate to say it, you know, but I'm gonna straddle both. I have a great passion and love doing both. I love the one on one coaching and because of my enormous drive to connect with people just how I'm wired. but I also I like addressing, you know, groups of people and if for no other reason this will sound almost a little crazy, but Because of the powerful message, you know, that you know, I've dedicated my life to studying and being able to teach. If if I'm able to talk to a larger group of people, I'm able to influence or share what I believe has been life-altering specialized knowledge, not only my own life. but the lives of scores of people that I've had the honor and the pleasure of working with. So I like both. Yeah. You should say you should be asking me which one do I get more jacked up about, like you know, more nervous about. to this day, I still like it like butterflies in my stomach when I've talked to a group of people. You'd say you'd be doing this for decades that's just how it goes. speaker-0: Yeah. let me ask, do you like have a a place that you've been to where you've spoken or a largest group that sticks in your brain as one of those like highest pressure type speaker-1: I've given a lot of different talks. I've talked at you know master's program at the University of Roger. I've spoken at colleges, spoken to associations like Blue Cross Blue Shield Association. Spoke to you know, a lot of know, different companies. Yeah. and then, you know, our organization through the years, what we started doing was going and and running seminars, free seminars in major cities around the country to educate the leaders within those communities about motivational intelligence, which is our company specialty and and the and the powerful impact it has on them, in their leadership capabilities and the people they lead. So I I've done both I'd probably say the biggest group I've ever probably spoken to directly. Yeah. Was probably about four hundred people maybe. speaker-0: Very cool. Okay. And last one, starting a business or growing a business. speaker-1: I'm telling you, I'm give you some hard hits. But I feel like they're loaded because I keep answering the same way. I'm at the risk of sounding like a psycho, but I love both. You know what I I first off, I started my own business, right? I've grown my own business. Yeah. But because of what I do for a living and have for all these years, I'm involved all the time with startup businesses and helping, you know, wide eyed, bright eyed, you know, dreamers walk in. and you know, a lot of times, you know, they'll think, Well, you know, th this you know, I don't want to sound the wrong way, but this guy's not gonna give me the attention the focus, but that's not true. Whether I'm talking to Pfizer or I'm talking to, you know, somebody that's got a dream to start a business or they started a business and they're looking for help growing it, I have the same level of concentration and focus 'cause I love both. So I love startups and I love growing. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. I think it's more the relationship piece that's that through line for sure. Just to have a chat with people. Yeah. Very cool. Well, I guess you blew up my icebreaker, Joe. Thanks so much. I'm just kidding. I appreciate appreciate you sharing your perspective. I also I I think it's fun to get our have our audience get to know you a little. speaker-1: No, thank you. speaker-0: wonderful. Okay, so we start always with career journey. where it began, you grew up in East Islep, Long Island. What brought you to Rochester? speaker-1: As I always say to people, blonde haired, blue eyed lady. So I met my wife in college and we fell in love and we got engaged and she was from Rochester and so my senior year when I was she's two years younger than me, so when my senior year I said, either we have to stop, you know, I wasn't gonna ask her to marry me yet yet. or if you move back to Rochester, I'll move there and that's where I'll start my career. So she said Hell, let's go to Rochester. So she went here, she went to Saint John Fisher and finished up her degree and and I started my career here with McMillan Publishing Company. Very speaker-0: Cool. So then at McMillan you became the youngest regional sales manager. Like I called out in your intro. So you began at Macmillan. like what got you to that point where and like sales, what made you interested kind of in that that role? speaker-1: So, you know, as a young kid growing up, my father and my uncles had their own business. So I would go to work with my father on a Saturday, constantly and it was fun. You know, I'd be with my uncles, you know, and my dad. So yeah, I started saying at ten years old, someday I want to have my own business, having no idea what that what I was really saying. But so by the time I got to college, it that you know, that never left my mind. That's all I started thinking about. So I started my first business. I got a paper out when I was thirteen, then I started my first business digging clams in the Great South Bay, in Long Island. and I did that from fifteen to like twenty one. Uh-huh. And then when I came out of college, I had a degree in marketing. And unlike most, you know, young people coming out of college, I had no interest in finding a job. I was looking for a mentor and I knew it. I I was looking for someone that was going to teach me professional sales at an extreme level. And of course like any other twenty one year old, I was in one hell of a hurry. Steve, you can relate to that, right? And so what basically happened next was I would go on interviews and in the first ten, fifteen minutes, if I wasn't impressed, I would very politely end the meeting, I'd get up and I'd walk out and people would say, Well, you must have been a really cocky son of a gun, but I really wasn't, I wasn't raised that way, it's not who I am. But what I was was extraordinarily goal directed. I knew that I needed to find a mentor and And then as fate would have it, I just happened to answer an ad for McMillan Publishing Company. They screened me on the phone and they invited me in. So I obviously passed that test. And when I got to the lobby, there was like ten people, eight people ahead of me. And I'm like, now I'm gonna go see some other buffoon, right? And but within about fifteen minutes, I was on Lombardy time, which is like fifteen minutes early. So by the time it was like a quarter after I got the phone call to come up, so I went up to the suite and the gentleman into opens the door, interviews me. And long story short, he basically ran the most successful sales team in McMillan, but also within the industry and people knew it. They knew him. When I was so as fate would have it, he loved what he saw in me. I loved what I saw in him. I asked him, you know, how well does your sales team do? And he kind of laughed. He says, we do quite well. I said, How well? He said, We're number one. And that's kind of his voice. And I said to him, well, how the hell do you do that? He goes, it's quite simple. I train my people. And I said, Well, you're the guy I'm looking for. And his state would have it, he hired me. Yeah. And that's how the whole journey began. So I when I went to orientation, you know, as you do in a big company, they walked me in and they said, you see this marketing manager in this office, they used to work for Randy, and you this marketing manager in this office, they used to work for Randy, and you see this editor in this office. Almost fifty percent of the people that were in mid-management in the organization at one time worked for this guy in the field. So when I say that I found a sage, I found a real talented, gifted individual, I really did. And my career exploded just just like everybody else's did. And as a result of that, I became a district manager under him. So he taught me not only professional sales at an extreme level, but he also taught me how to recruit, train, and motivate. he taught me leadership and management also at an extreme level. And and then eventually he left the firm and then I stepped into his role, which was the regional management position, which the director of the vice president of sales did not want to give me the job. So this is back now, not to date myself, but you know, in the eighties and and he said, you're too young, you know, today if you say you're too young it'd be a problem, but and I said, and I very confidently said, you know, look, unless you want this region, you know, I know all the people, I own I've I've earned their trust and respect. I know the territories, I know the accounts in the whole mid Atlantic region. I said, unless you want to lose millions of dollars as far as I'm concerned, you have to give me this job. And besides that, I've earned it. And he kinda leaned back in the chair and he said, You're right, you did. And he gave it to me. So that's why I ended up being the youngest person in the industry. I was I think I was twenty five at that time. That was a big position. Yeah. maybe just barely turning twenty six. And the youngest regional manager was about thirty three years old. Mm-hmm. speaker-2: What so for the audience? Yeah. I've heard a lot of Randy's stories. Yeah. And I don't we're gonna get to it later, our relationship, Will Mac and and Joe Gianni and Two Logical. But one of the big things that I've taken from Too Logical and Joe is the recruiting and training and interviewing. What kind of mentoring did he give you for that? Like sp specific stuff for our audience? Because That is just so huge when you're trying to grow a company to get that stuff right and to have process for that. speaker-1: Yeah. So you know, we could do an entire podcast just on recruiting, but I'll keep it tight. You know, in the summertimes in the publishing industry, basically if you were in sales, you had the summer off. So I was kind of had the insight and the inkling that I volunteered for everything. So he had open territories, I'd say, Let me come help you recruit. And that's when he started teaching me recruiting. And you know what I said, you know, w You know, he would never hire somebody unless he interviewed between phone interviews and face-to-face interviews between eighty to a hundred people. And I'm not kidding. So he'd get stacks of resume, he'd hire recruiters that would feed him leads. He would train the recruiters on exactly what he was looking for. He would tell the recruiters that you're here to leverage my time. I've just spent thirty minutes explaining what I'm after. If you don't first time you bring me someone that doesn't fit my scope. I I will I will correct it. The second time I will fire you. And that's just how he rolled. And then in addition to that, there were some real major breakthrough things that he taught me. Like one was you're looking for people, first off, that are gonna stay with you, Joe, long enough to really teach them this business and teach them the trade of sales. And that was different than what most people would think about recruiting. Like that was like the first thing he said. And so as a result of that, he said, you have to hire people who have enormous success drive. You have to hire people that have what my company calls motivational intelligence today. And that's what you have to do. And then, you know, Steve, what he did was he started to, you know, if you think about how most people recruit, you recruited for sales. Well, do you have sales experience? I was just involved with a major company. They were recruiting a chief technical officer. And one of the biggest things I said to them is, look, after a while, they're all gonna have the level of tech, you have to have someone that has such a drive that they're gonna help you transform the organization to the to the future. So and that's you need a success drive for that. Yeah. So he taught me to sharpen my eye to look for that in people more than even their experience. Although in certain career paths you have to have, you know, if you're a banker, you have to know banking, you know, technology, you have to know technology. But it was very much around that success drive. And then he taught you know me very specific questions to ask people that are just not common to get really quickly to whether or not somebody really believed in themselves, whether or not they've shaped the right thinking about themselves, about their self-efficacy. And they were questions like, give me three adjectives, Joe, to describe yourself. Well, most people, you read a lot of books on recruiting, they don't teach you how do you respond to that. So people will give you raw answers. Tell me a success story from your childhood. People can't They're not prepped for that. So people who are successful, they view their life as successful. So they might take a moment to think about it because it's a unique question, but they'll be able to formulate something that they view as successful. Even if you and I don't think it's successful, like in our minds, like you know, I got a paper out. Some people say, Well, who cares? But to people who are trained like this, they know that they're telling their journey and they view themselves as successful. So without getting super long winded, that was really how he taught that. And it makes a huge difference. Huge. Absolutely. Yeah. speaker-0: I feel like it's a unique perspective to to be looking for mentorship at such a young age. Like what I guess what caused that? 'Cause most people you come out of college and you're like, I just gotta get a job, I gotta make money. How not they're not seeking someone out like that. And then usually afterwards they try to find a program that pairs them with a mentor or they're like they're trying to feel it out. Like what kind of drove that, I guess, maturity, mature thinking around mentorship. speaker-1: So you know, back in that time there was no degree in sales, right? It's marketing, there was no sales pro today there speaker-2: They still don't do a great job. speaker-1: yeah, for sure. But so I knew that if I was gonna be an entrepreneur, it didn't matter what product I was gonna sell or what service I was gonna sell. I just knew that if I was really gonna be a successful entrepreneur, I'd better know how to sell. So what drove me to to find a mentor was I knew I needed to learn professional sales and I needed to learn it, you know, at a very, very advanced level quickly. Yeah. So I just had that clarity. And that's why, you know, again I I would very politely end interviews. When people were disheveled interviewing me and you know, the I I would just I would just literally politely end the meeting. I'm not kidding you. But when I met when I sat across from this guy, the moment he looked me in the eye, the moment he sat down and started explaining me the interview and process, how he's running behind, how he's interviews, you know, eighty hundred people before he ever allows people to join his team, blah, blah, everything about it was different. His whole move was, you know, the way he moved was different. So You know, that's how I also knew when I saw him that he was the person I was looking for. And the and the crazy thing about life is as fate would have it, he hired me on the spot. You know, I don't know if I said that earlier, but he hired me on the spot. And the and that too, I mean there were there was probably twenty people, fifteen people behind me in that lobby waiting to interview. Think about that. But that's how he knew. He had a very trained eye of who he was after and see you and I've talked about this many, many times, right? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. okay, so you wrap up your time at McMillan and decide to start too logical. What prompted that? speaker-1: Yeah, so at the when Randy got an offer as he said to me, he said, Joe, like your Italian heritage, I was made an offer by a bigger com competitor to McMillan that I couldn't refuse. So he left and went to a company at that time, Addison Wesley, Benjamin Cummings. and He said to me, you know, I want you to come with me. And I said, you know, look, I beat to a different drum. I'm gonna start my own business. If I follow you now, I'll follow you the rest of my life. Yeah. I can't do that. He said, I know. He said, but I had to ask and I said, But I can never repay you for what you've done for me. I'd I'd like to, you know, take you to lunch, dinner or something. And he said, No, you don't to do that Making the story short, he said, Okay, let's go to lunch in a few weeks. So I went to lunch, but before I went to lunch, I bought a Hallmark card, one of those blank cards. And you know how you write a letter in your head first. You don't want to mess up the card, right? So I'm writing the letter in head and as I'm sitting there, you know, at my kitchen table, I'm like, Dear Randy, thanks for teaching me professional sales at such an extreme level. And again, keep in mind I'm like twenty five years old. I knew I was destined to be financially independent in sales just because of the enormous specialized knowledge of selling that he taught me. And I was like, yeah, that's true, but it ain't it. It's more. So I kept thinking about it. And as I thought about it, I said, Well, dear Randy, thanks for teaching me, you know, how to lead and manage, how to recruit, train and motivate very uniquely. And I was like, well that's true, but that ain't it. And as I kept thinking about it, I realized I was a better friend to my friends. I was a better spouse to my wife. I was a better sibling to my brothers. I was a better child to my parents. And don't get me wrong, it's not like I sucked at all those things. Yeah. It's I was pretty decent at it, but I just was so much better. And I realized right there that I was gonna be a better parent to my children, even though I didn't have children yet, all because of this philosophy and the way he taught me. So I wrote the card and I took him to lunch. We had a great time. And at the end I handed him the card and I said, Hey, when you get home, I wrote you a letter just to say thank you. I can't ever repay you. I handed him the card and he said, I'd love to read it now. And I said, Yeah, I'm kind of embarrassed, you know, read it when you get home. And he said, No, please, you know, can I read it? And he looked me right in the eyes. He says, Yes, he would do. And I was like, all right. So he rips the card open like it's Christmas morning and he pulls it out and he reads. He gets a little tear in his eye. And and I've I I of course have it memorized. And this is what I said to him. I said, Dear Randy, thanks for teaching me to be the best Joe Gianni that I could be. Love always Joe, because that's really what he taught me and anybody else that ever worked for him. What he taught all of us was a philosophy, and that philosophy was about any leadership role that you take in life, meaning any role you and I take on in life. Why not be the best? Dedicate yourself to be the best. So if you're gonna be a father, be the best father. You're gonna be a mother, be the best mother. You're gonna be a salesperson, become the best salesperson. You're gonna be a leader and a manager, become the best leader, you're gonna be an entrepreneur, business owner, become the best. So it was that whole philosophy. And then he said something to me that changed the projectory of the rest of my career to answer your question. He said, You know, in all the years, I've never asked for a personal favor. Will you help me? I said, Of course I will. What do you need? You know, and and I said, you need help moving? He's no, I don't need help moving. I'm like, okay, well, you know, because he was moving to California. That would have been a nightmare. I said, Do you need money? And he said, No, I don't need your money. And of course, that was good because had he asked me for my money that I'd been saving to start my own business since I was 13 with a paper out and then claming, I would have given it to him. And it's like, no, I don't need your money. I'm like, thank God. I would have given him that money though, because he'd earned it. And then I said, I said, I don't get it, Randy. What do you need? And he looked me very squarely in the eyes and he said, I want you to go find your Joe Gianni. Take the time to teach him or her that which I've taken the time to teach you. Will you do it? And I said, absolutely. So I thought he meant in my career, you know, when you bring people in, really teach them what I've taught you. But, you know, looking back, I think he knew, I think he already could see. This is a scary kind of individual. I think he could see in into my future and where I might be able to scratch the full itches that I had. and that's how I ended up in this whole space. speaker-0: Okay, so Joe, most people have heard of IQ and EQ. I have that written down verbatim. But you on on Two Logical's website and you personally, you talk a lot about MQ, motivational intelligence. So where does MQ show up in day to day business? speaker-1: well that's a great question, Emily. And and you know, I guess you know the simple thing is is everybody's heard of IQ. IQ is problem solving, right? And but you and I know a lot of people who are really smart, you know, but yet they don't really build successful careers or they don't really build successful personal lives for that matter. So, you know, the reason why we talk about all three of the levels of of intelligence and have positioned the third level of intelligence. Is because when you study successful people, you begin to realize that there are a lot of smart people out there, but they still can't get out of their own way and live the life they want to live. So that's you know, IQ. And then you have, of course, EQ. EQ is made well known like twenty years back now. But EQ is basically, you know, I understand my emotions, I understand your emotions, and I know how to interplay amongst those emotions to move forward. You know, the way I always describe it is. We all know a lot of people who play great in a sandbox, people you like, people you want to be around. But just because you and I, you know, are likable also doesn't guarantee that you and I are going to be able to build the life we want to have in our careers and on our personal life. So what what what Randy taught me all those decades ago was that the most powerful thing again is success drive. The most powerful thing is understanding success principles. So what What we did is we began to create our own genre by first calling it mindset training, belief-based training. And we called it that for probably the first 15 years, 20 years even. And then you know, one day we sat down and we all brainstormed amongst each other. And one of my key folks said, you know, really what we do is, you know, you guys are the motivational intelligence company. We're the motivational intelligence company. And I realize that that's really what we do because motivational intelligence is basically the third level of specialized knowledge or intelligence a person has to have, which lies in helping people to unlock themselves so that they can do the things they need to do to succeed. So people of the highest IQ many times can't unlock themselves. People who are the greatest people, really fun to be around. They can't unlock themselves. They can't get out of their own way and do the things that they know they need to do. in order to pursue that career that they're after, or in order to build that company they want to build, or in order to take their career or that company to another level. They just can't do you know they get they get locked in their own way. And so motivational intelligence is the collection of all the studies that are out there and there are gazillions of them about human success and when you know from self-esteem concepts to organizational based self-esteem, all these different things. But really what it comes down to is people who have enormous capabilities to live the life they want to live, they have that ability because they have MQ, not those other two. And, you know, if you think about it, you know, all skills, all talents, all abilities are first born in the seeds of desire, not the other way around. So, you know, most people think, well, we'll just give them some skill training. But the reality is is that skill training in and of itself never works. People have to believe in their own self efficacy. They have to believe that they're capable of doing it. They also have to see it and believe that they can l make their dreams come true by by adopting or learning a certain skill set or adopting a certain strategy. So without motivational intelligence, people just can't get out of their own way. Right. So that's really, you know, what it looks like or what where it germinates from. Yeah. And you know what it looks like in in application, you know, it looks like any championship team, any tier one operating team, you know, everybody knows their role and everybody has an enormous, enormous belief in their self efficacy, that they they can do that role. I don't care if you and I are looking at the you know, championship sports teams or if you and I are looking at you know, the very best armies, you know, special forces, or if you and I are looking at the best sales team in an industry. They they have enormously high, enormously high kill. speaker-2: Taking this back even further to not only business, but kind of the general population and growing up and whatnot. So I've I've obviously been working with Joe for twenty plus years, well versed in MQ. But one of the things that early on kind of helped shape how the the way I that I've went in my life is a world of abundance. You speak about that. And people with MQ know That there is a world of abundance there that if you shape your life correct, you can get whatever you want. And people might say that's ridiculous. Right. But the people that actually get to these spots actually had to believe it at one point. Absolutely. And we're not necessarily taught that growing up. We're taught more practical, like, hey, get good grades, get into good college. get good grades in college, then maybe you might get a job and if you make enough money, awesome. And you can raise a family and yada yada yada. But they don't talk about all all the great things that are out there and all the great things that you want to do in life are capable of of doing that if you really put your mind to it and believe it. can you talk about abundance and why maybe the world doesn't see it like you and how you've taught it. speaker-1: Well, you know, so first you know, f first off, you know, I have the utmost respect for education, higher education. You know, I run an education company. But the challenge is is that people get falsely by the trappings of society thinking that a degree is gonna give you safe passage to your The life you want to have, the dreams you want to have come true. and that's just not the case. There are so many people out there, you know, it's a big problem now with degrees, but they still don't know what they want out of life. And the reason is is because most people are never taught early on, just like you were referencing, Steve, that we are the creators of our future. In other words, every one of us has been given a gift of life, but the gift of life, the real essence of the gift is our power to create. You and I can choose where we want to go in life, what we want to have, who we want to become. But a lot of times no one ever speaks to us that way. So we don't start using it that way. Most people just go through and they try to do what their parents think they should do or what one of their friends think they should do. Rather than understanding that the happiest people I've ever known take control of their life and begin to use their creative faculties to envision where they want to go and then begin to build their skill sets, their plans, their goals around that, not the other way around. When it comes to abundance, most people, because they're so conditioned and beat out of them to have dreams, most people, when they do try to dream, they dream in minimums rather than in maximums. So most people begin early on, you know, they get a they go to school and it's like, what's the least I gotta do to get through this class? You know, they go and get their first job. What's the least I have to do? You know, to get this, you know, to trick this company into giving me a paycheck, you know. I know that 'cause, you know, that was my mindset when I was sixteen years old, but you know, in in working in a grocery store. But the reality is is that it doesn't work that way. an abundant mindset is a learned mindset, just like a lacking mindset is a learned mindset. The whole universe that you and I live in, you know, and I don't want to sound like I'm a you know heady or anything, but it's true. You know, just look around. Everything around us is in abundance. Air is in abundance, land's in abundance, water's in abundance. you go to a beach, sand's in abundance, people are in abundance. You fly all the way across the world and get off, and there's a gazillion people there. Everything's in cars are in abundance, everything's in abundance, grass is in abundance. But so our creator gives everything, the world, the universe, everything is in abundance. So why should you and I not also align ourselves to that and think in abundance and start to, you know, chart a path forward of what's the most? What's the most amount of success I can have in my career? What's the most I can accomplish this year in my finances? What's the most I can accomplish with my relationship with my significant other? So it's it's a whole trained way of thinking. Yeah. Just like most of us are trained to think in minimums. Right. speaker-0: It's a perspective and I think too it's it's a hunger, it's curiosity, it's drive, like it's speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: Well you I think you bring I think you bring up a great point, Emily, and this is so important and that is this. When someone is heavily conditioned of the opposite of thinking abundantly, they plan their life in in mediocrity, not on purpose, but by accident. So what happens is they end up you know, again, setting minimal goals, setting minimal visions. And there's never that burning in their belly, to build anything of greatness in their life. And if you stop and you think about it, we all we're are you the two of you are extraordinarily successful. When you and I are around people who are really successful, one of the things you see is there's just fire in them. Even if they try to keep it hidden, you know, there's a burn in them. And there's a burn in them because they think abundantly. They believe in in the most and they believe that they can be the most. You know, and and you know, the the probably the last thing I'd say on abundance is, you know, we talk about the world outside of us, what we want to accomplish, what we want to do. But before we can have what we want in life, we have to become the man or woman capable of making that happen. You know, you and I, you know, don't, you know, get drafted by the NFL and get a major contract and then start thinking about, you know, how we're gonna be, you know, skilled to be you know an NFL player. It doesn't happen that way. You first have the vision, the dream, you think big, you think abundantly, and then you start moving your life, like I said earlier, around that. Most people, again, they just don't see life that way. So they think in those minimums. And as a result of that, there's never enough spark, enough burning in them. That's why from a practicality standpoint, say how does this, you know, apply motivation intelligence in a company in the business setting? It's about helping the individual that you are coaching and mentoring or the entire division or the entire team to think about what's the most that they can accomplish, what's the most that the the organization can accomplish and get them thinking big because from that big thinking, now people can start thinking big about how they can play a bigger role, how they can accomplish more, how they can earn more, bigger opportunity. Everything comes from that. But if if a leader is not s you know trained in motivational intelligence, which, you know, thinking big or imagination is all part of that. They they don't go there. So, you know, they they're they're leading and managing people that don't have enough burn. And yet they could cr they could help them to create that burn if they know what they're doing. Right. speaker-0: And I think I'm I'm gonna tangent a little bit here because I know obviously we're all in business, but we talk to people in public safety, we talk to people in contact centers. Like I think the perception there is maybe a little bit different, but I don't think the the principle changes. Like it's just that abundance of thinking is instilled in the culture and if that culture is positive, it plays into the wellness component with nine one one. so I don't know, I just I had a little tangential thought there. speaker-1: Well, know, you you gave me a flashback. I remember very early in my career I was with Randy and we were in the field working together and we were seeing the day we were having, you know, dinner and he says he and as we became, you know, more as we worked together and and and became friends as well. But it wasn't for a couple of years before he let me get to that side of him. But he looked at and he goes, he goes, you know, Jojo, he goes, he called me Jojo, you Jojo goes, one of the things that I love about you, he goes, is if if you were a ditch digger, you'd be the best damn ditch digger there ever was. And that's what I mean about abundance. Abundance isn't necessarily you're a doctor or you're a number one salesperson. Abundance is that philosophy of anything you're gonna do, you're gonna be the best at it. Yeah. And that's what I what I constantly, you know, want us to always remind ourselves of because that's the secret. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Love it. okay, so we talked about it too in your intro, but you've worked with a lot of Fortune five hundred companies across a variety of countries. I guess do you have a success a success story that you're able to share that epitomizes that change in thought that we're talking about? speaker-1: You know, b because I've I've been blessed with a very fruitful and illustrative career, I have many, many, many. Yeah. You know, whether it's from the pharmaceutical industry to the banking industry to the oil and gas industry to the insurance industry. You know, we've we've worked closely amongst the icons. Yeah. Pfizer being out of say the farmer industry or B D. if we were talking energy companies like GE or you know Baker Us. if we were talking within you know insurance, Blue Cross Blue Shield or Prudential, you name them. There are so many stories candidly, my mind's race and you know, w which to choose. I think I think the most powerful story that I could share with you was Back in the day when I don't know if you guys remember this, when the the oil well blew up in the Gulf of Mexico, which is now called the Gulf of America, when that blew up we were already heavily retained and working closely with Baker Hughes and in that period of time the competition everybody started getting really nervous and they started making decisions based on lower level thinking and again not around success and success principle thinking which is fearlessness imaginative adaptability all those different things so They made the decision while their competition started moving all their equipment out of the market area. They made the decision to wait that out. And because of that, they ended up landing massive contracts that was, I can't say, but massive contracts that was just extreme. And I sure I assure you enough to pay two logical forever. where I'm going is Is that the decisions, the the executive at the time, this is not my words, this is their words, said that unequivocally that the reason they made those decisions differently than their competition was because they don't think like their competition. They think in a whole different plane of thought around motivational intelligence. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, wonderful, powerful. And like you just spoke about it crosses industries. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. yeah. speaker-2: Yeah. What's that? AI. AI. Help us out. Yeah. Exactly. speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah, I was gonna ask too, has AI and its evolution, has it changed like how you think about MQ or or speaker-1: you know that's a powerful question. It might be the most important question. So, you know, obviously being a thought leader, right, I I have to constantly think about these things. And one of the one of the biggest things where my mind has gone to is people are very truly unsettled about the you know, the disruption of AI, the disruption of technology. But yet throughout history, technology breakthroughs are always bring disruption. People begin to move again based on not motivational intelligence, but they move on lower level thinking and beliefs. They they start believing that it's gonna take away jobs rather than create jobs. They think it's gonna take away affluence and wealth rather than build affluence and wealth. But if you look back, literally every time there's been a a technological breakthrough, it is not taken away jobs, it's only created more jobs, whether you talk about the steam engine for the, you know, for the for the trains or cars, gas engines, or you know, with the internet or the computer or cell phones. I mean every single thing you and I can think of has created more wealth, more opportunity. Yeah. AI is going to do the same thing. You can quote me on that. That's what's gonna happen. But but it's a matter of helping being a shepherd of all of us in business, being executives. One, helping our own minds to get around that and think about what it can be, what it needs to be, rather than what it's not. So where my mind went for like in my business, I started thinking about this disruption is really an enormous opportunity to help leaders to understand that they need to create the employee of the future. And the employee of the future, if you really think about this, go back to what we said early on, IQ. Well, if you and I have AI and we can ask it any question in a matter of nanoseconds. It can give you and I extreme specialized knowledge about what to do and how to do it. I don't really know how much dependency we need there. Well then you go to EQ, right? You know, the emotional intelligence. Well, AI, you can train it to for the tonality of the way it's answering or how you're writing. So that really ain't it. So really what what's gonna be the most valuable thing? It's gonna be MQ. It's gonna be people that understand how to be a creator. It's gonna be the people that understand how to get out of their own way, overcome their own fears. And actually start building use cases. One last point on that, because I think this is so valuable for your listeners. You know, if you think about it, go back when say electricity was first created. When electricity was first created, they spent enormous energy time, meaning building out the infrastructure, right? But the real promise, the real value, the real wealth creation and job creation that came about didn't happen because they had electricity. didn't even happen just because they built out the infrastructure. If you think about AI, that's what's happening right now. Where it became so powerful was the men and women who embraced the because there were people running away from it. it's gonna be burned down your house. I mean, think about, you know, in history. But it was the men and women who started saying, wow, this is amazing. What use cases? And they started creating things like, I don't know if you've ever heard of them called the vacuum or the iron or the blender, or you know, I mean, think about it. Well, none of that would exist if it wasn't for electricity. Well in my mind, it's the same thing about AI. Right now they're building out the infrastructure, but the most powerful organizations are gonna be led by men and women who run at that fast and furiously. In fact, you know, our organization just recently has just launched a learning system that is learning AI at a fundamental level or an advanced level powered by MQ. So I mean we already have a major client that already has adopted it. So it's wonderful. It's pr it's pretty neat. speaker-2: Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things you've kind of repeated a couple of times, which I think is great and I think is the perfect kind of answer with AI is that it's gonna the people who wanna create creators and drivers, that's who's gonna embrace this and and change and the people who are kind of sitting back, like your electricity example are gonna be the ones hurting. to that point, great on the AI stuff, but I know we wanna take this back to Rochester a little bit. Yeah. We said you've been here over forty years. Yeah. And we know why you came. So not the same answer for this question. Yeah. Can't use your wife for this one. Why are you still here? Yeah. And why do you still have a company here instead of elsewhere? speaker-1: So I'm you know, it's obviously, you know, we have distribution you know throughout the world. But but why I'm here, one is I fell in love with Rochester. you know, my wife's family's from here. I was vr I am and was very close to my family too. So but it's not that far away. it's a little inconvenient trying to fly. You know, we f you know, my folks fly all over the world. It's it's a little inconvenient 'cause you gotta you know double, triple hop everywhere. But but You know, the quality of living here, the the you know, people looking to start out, you know, with their first home, second home, third home, whatever it is, you know, you raise in a young family, you can expose them to all kinds of things, all kinds of experiences. so, you know, I just I I love Rochester. and I have and and one of the biggest reasons why we've never moved away is because of that. And you know, people would say most of the time when I talk to, you know, companies all over the place. all over the world and I say I'm from New York. Then you automatically think I'm in Manhattan. And then I say, No, I'm actually in Rochester, New York and then speaker-2: Exact exactly. speaker-1: But but you know it it has not been an inhibitor and of course as the years went on, it's obviously with today with technology again, the breakthrough, it there's no limits whatsoever. So, you know, my our roots are here, our families are here, our deep friendships are here. you know, as well as downstate but here. speaker-0: Yeah, your community's here. part of your community is Wilmac. see that segue there. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: But I I I mentioned it, we've Wilmac and Too Logical have had a relationship for over thirty years. So how how did that start? Take me back to the beginning. speaker-1: Yeah, well, very simply, I met Steve's father and his uncle Bill. and the two of them had just taken over the business from their grandfather and they had those big wide circle eyes and dreams and they wanted to build something very special and we sat down and I basically said that, you know, that's what I do. I help people make their dreams come true. It's what I'm dedicated to doing and if you're crazy enough to believe that. I think we could do some great things together. So they were crazy enough to believe that they knew they needed some you know, some some voice outside of their own two voices and you know, to their credit, we began that journey together. And as I share with folks, we started that journey thirty years ago and until the two of them retired, we met every single month for twenty-five years. They never missed a meeting out there. Twenty-five years, and I have the records to show it. but you know, that relationship, you know, we went through lots of, you know, reinventing the company, new products, different developing talent. it's been a magnificent journey. In fact, it's absolutely one of my fondest career memories. When I retire, and I'm not being polite, Will Mac holds an extraordinarily special place in my heart because of the special people that started it. starting with your grandpa who I did know, and then your dad and your uncle and then, you know, being succeeded down to you, in your hands now, Steve, very trusted, capable hands. It's just been an extraordinary blessed journey. And, you know, through that I got to meet you, Emily, and that's been extraordinary as well. So speaker-2: Yeah. No, yeah. That I think that's I've I obviously know the story very well. but for our listeners I think that's great. Joe still helps out with a ton of stuff at Wilmack. I meet with him quite frequently. and it's exciting and we're we're pumped to have you here. And it's good to hear kind of your story. You're normally coaching when I talk to you, especially of late. So I think this has been this has been great. speaker-1: Yeah. Terrific. Thank you. Thanks for having me. speaker-0: Yeah, wonderful. Yeah. And I I think too it's clicks more and more together to me every time I talk with you, Joe, as to where a lot of C's verbiage comes from. When we talk about culture in our organization and even some of our just Tim and I Will MacWire episodes, we talk often about drivers. We talk about MQ and and that sort of thing and how important the relationship building and culture part of our organization is in hiring the right people and how our people are the catalyst to our growth. speaker-1: Well two things run to my mind as you say that. One is it's good that, you know, I'm still a value, right? But two, you know, Steve's an an awesome, you know, student. You know, the the only only those people that can grow and learn themselves can ever really be great leaders of others. And Steve's a great leader as you know. Yes and you know, and that's what it's all about. So speaker-0: All right. Joe, as we start to wrap up, is there anything happening at To Logical right now or any initiatives that you'd like to share about or you'd like our listeners to know about? speaker-1: I you know, I think that if if you are a business leader, no matter you know what scope you could be you know involved running one of the biggest companies in the world or an emerging company or anything in between, if you're not familiar with the power of motivational intelligence and infusing that into your workforce in all candor, you're missing out. And you're not missing out because I say you're missing out. You're missing out because of tens of thousands of people that stand behind me whose careers and lives have been profoundly impacted because of developing and learning this specialized knowledge. So that's the first thing. And then I think the second thing is AI is not something that's here and gone. AI is our future, all of our future and you know we see ourselves we are the motivational intelligent company. we are truly very unique still to this day because of that within the corporate learning world. But you know, we're leveraging AI teachings th through linking it to motivational intelligence training. So for you know your listeners that are looking to really truly help their workforce and themselves to embrace AI, You know, they they might want to look us up. Wonderful. speaker-2: Yeah, before Emily w wraps this up, especially for listeners locally or whatnot, if you have any questions about Too Logical or Joe, you can reach directly out to to me as well. Yeah. I love to talk about Joe, love to to reference him. He's been a great help to Wilmack and especially my obviously is what Emily said, but I vouched for him for myself. He's been a great coach and mentor for me. So yeah. If anyone wants to reach out to me directly to get in touch with Joe, feel free through it through our podcast. Yeah. speaker-0: You know how to find them. All right. Wonderful. All right. for our listeners, also, if you'd like to connect with Joe and follow Too Logical's work, you can find Joe Giani on LinkedIn. Like I said, Joe Giovanni, G-I-A-N-N-I. And then Toological is also on LinkedIn. And that's two the number, logical. and then finally, Two Logical's website is www.tological.com. So go and check them out or send Steve a bunch of messages. All right. Thanks Joe so much for joining us. We appreciate it. speaker-2: Thank you for having me. speaker-1: Yeah. Thank you, Steve. Thanks for having me. speaker-0: Thank you for listening to the WilmacWire. If you liked today's conversation, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Or watch full episodes on our YouTube channel. You can also learn more about Wilmac Technologies and our work in customer interaction technology at Wilmactech.com. We'll be back soon with more conversations with the drivers, those shaping our industry, and those building right here in western New York. See you next time.