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The Transformative Power of Play in Leadership and Resilience with Brandi Heather · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
• 0:08
  about things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
• 0:40
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:41
  It's Roxanne Derr Hodge.
• 0:42
  Thanks for tuning in again today.
• 0:44
  Today, I have a colleague, Brandy Heather.
• 0:46
  And, Brandy is a a professional speaker, and she's, been doing this kind of work for a long
• 0:53
  time.
• 0:53
  And we'll let her get jump into that, but she gets the fun things.
• 0:57
  Right?
• 0:58
  And she's the fun version.
• 0:59
  So I I gotta tell you the story, which was fun.
• 1:04
  At our professional association, we had our it was our annual meeting in Quebec, and I was
• 1:10
  unfortunately paired against Brandy on another team.
• 1:15
  And all I can say to you is she knows how to play and win at all odds because I think I
• 1:21
  might have caught her cheating, but not that she admitted to it, but that was my first real
• 1:27
  interaction with Brandy.
• 1:28
  And it was hilarious, by the way, I should tell you, because I I did when I looked over and I
• 1:32
  looked at her again, she goes, what are you looking at?
• 1:34
  I remember you said.
• 1:35
  I said, are you Cheech?
• 1:36
  She goes, absolutely not.
• 1:38
  Absolutely not.
• 1:40
  So she, Brandy, works predominantly with play and innovation and creativity and how that
• 1:47
  impacts us in our lives.
• 1:48
  And, you know, what I was drawn back to was when being exposed to you and our other
• 1:53
  colleague there was when we were playing at that event, how much nothing else mattered
• 1:59
  other than being in the moment.
• 2:01
  And I hope today that with our conversation, that Brandy will be able to kind of share some
• 2:05
  of her wonderful insight into something that naturally as children we do and then how we
• 2:12
  kind of are taught by society to grow out of it and then how it's so important to reimplement
• 2:18
  it at some point.
• 2:19
  So, Rene, welcome welcome, to the show.
• 2:22
  Thank you.
• 2:23
  It's time to be here.
• 2:25
  Yeah.
• 2:25
  So what what else would you like people to know about your background that you think might be
• 2:30
  helpful for this discussion that we're gonna have today?
• 2:33
  Sure.
• 2:34
  People often ask me, like, why play?
• 2:37
  Like, where does where does play come from?
• 2:40
  And I get I have lots of answers for that.
• 2:43
  For me, what I found was I taught as a university, as a college professor for twenty
• 2:49
  years, and I taught in a world of inclusion and disability inclusion and accessibility.
• 2:54
  And what I knew for sure was in order to think creatively, in order to think about solutions
• 3:00
  that maybe weren't there or could be there, that people really had to have this open sense
• 3:07
  of possibility and potential in in every environment they could see.
• 3:11
  And when I could hear it and see it and people that really loved what they were doing, and you
• 3:17
  could see that even though there was great challenge, there was also great joy.
• 3:21
  And for a long time, I wasn't sure exactly what that was.
• 3:24
  And then someone said to me one day, you know what?
• 3:27
  We really love being in your classes.
• 3:30
  And, you know, I said, like, what is that?
• 3:33
  Because it it is something.
• 3:35
  And they said, I think it's play.
• 3:37
  I think it's that when you're doing what you're doing, you look like you're in play and you
• 3:43
  make us feel like we're in play.
• 3:45
  And that actually was part of the key to it that I I didn't know if I could put my finger
• 3:50
  on for a long time.
• 3:51
  I could see it in other people.
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  I I worked with kids for a long time, so I could always see the joy in them and, you know,
• 3:58
  what that did for them.
• 3:59
  But I didn't really put my finger on it for a long time and then realized, oh, it is play.
• 4:04
  And I should dig into what how that helps us to be successful.
• 4:07
  And as a big player as a kid, I I love to be outside.
• 4:12
  I grew up in a family with a father who's an artist, so I was very surrounded by it.
• 4:16
  So the why play for me comes from I've seen it.
• 4:20
  I've seen what it does to change people's nervous system and how they feel about
• 4:25
  themselves and what they how they connect with others.
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  So I've really seen it for a long time.
• 4:31
  So yeah.
• 4:32
  But it's funny that you talk about nervous system.
• 4:34
  Right?
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  Because it's through a lots of events that I've been involved with where there's been team
• 4:37
  building and and, you know, I've run teams over my career, and it's quite fascinating how many
• 4:42
  things come up through play as well.
• 4:44
  So I have this one.
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  I ran a unit at a hospital, Brandy, and we're doing I think it was like a trust access.
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  It would but it was a fun and you could see how people got guarded.
• 4:54
  Right?
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  Because I don't know if it's me growing up in a family of six, and I was just like, oh, yeah.
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  I'm all out.
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  And the person could kinda hold me.
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  And the one I remember one of my teammates said, how come you weren't scared?
• 5:04
  And I said, because, like, I'm around you guys, and I can close my eyes and I can but, clearly,
• 5:12
  there was within that environment, Brandy, you could see the people that struggled with, I
• 5:17
  can't trust, so I can't do this exercise, or I can't do this.
• 5:21
  And they couldn't just get into it because they they were bringing so many different things.
• 5:26
  So in play then, you know, when you're working with a team so maybe you tell us kinda how you
• 5:33
  work through things because I was thinking of those particular individuals, and I knew that
• 5:38
  there was some issues going on, but it it heightened, when they went into, you know, this
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  event.
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  And I wonder how play might have how how you use play and what you do when things like that
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  come up.
• 5:52
  Yeah.
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  Well, one thing that we know for sure is that we can't play, when we are scared.
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  We can't play where there is fear.
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  And so for me, it's always to walk into play in a trustworthy way.
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  So many people, when we think about play, they actually do have a very heightened response.
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  It's a it can be very much pushback on what what play looks like and what they think of it,
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  especially in business settings and surroundings.
• 6:23
  And so when we talk about play, I actually address that right up front.
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  And that is that for many people, the word play actually ignites their nervous system to think
• 6:35
  this is silly and unproductive, and so I'm not listening.
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  And so if we start there and we turn off our brains to learning and what's possible, then
• 6:45
  that doesn't lead into a session where we can learn very much.
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  So I actually walk into play very carefully.
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  I walk into it in a way that people in the room feel safe, that people don't in any way feel
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  silly in what they do.
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  Because, again, if I want people to understand the effect that it can have, then I have to
• 7:05
  create an environment where they feel like they can be, you know, in they can be resourceful.
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  Right?
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  That they can be themselves.
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  And so working in play is partly a game of trust.
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  And so walking into a situation where people knowing that people may push back on that and
• 7:28
  also being able to see it in their body language and all of those pieces.
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  So I'm very astute at being able to read a room.
• 7:34
  And so when we walk into play, we don't talk first about play or get into play right away.
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  We do things that actually just ignite curiosity and yeah.
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  Again, it it needs to be safe or it can't be play.
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  Like, we can't
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  But I would think that.
• 7:51
  Right?
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  It's like a litmus test.
• 7:53
  It's like a litmus test, I would think.
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  Because I'm just thinking, you know, of some of the environments I've worked in, there where
• 7:59
  there was a little bit unresolved things or maybe there's nepotism between different levels
• 8:05
  of the organization.
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  And then if you're coming in blind, obviously, you might be walking into, you know, a hornet's
• 8:11
  nest potentially because all that stuff's gonna play out like it's like street theater, I would
• 8:16
  say.
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  It's gonna be Absolutely.
• 8:18
  People picking each other and all that stuff.
• 8:20
  So when, you get a request, let's say, so your request can come in what ways?
• 8:26
  Because I I think it I I think of the fun part of you not telling the truth and winning,
• 8:31
  against my team on when before I go back.
• 8:34
  But that's another thing aside.
• 8:36
  But so is it that there's some kind of productivity issue?
• 8:43
  Is there that there's conflict?
• 8:45
  Is it that we've got new teammates and we wanna integrate it?
• 8:48
  What what in what ways might you be called in?
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  Because I'm just thinking for leaders that are listening, that are thinking, how do I fit this
• 8:54
  in?
• 8:56
  One of the things that that I get called on many times is organizations where leadership is
• 9:04
  feeling like things are stagnant or they're not moving, that there's maybe a an issue in
• 9:09
  processing or organizational resilience.
• 9:12
  Like, they're just feeling like their team is just needs something.
• 9:15
  I often get that kind of blank opening.
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  Like, our team just needs something.
• 9:20
  Right.
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  And we need we're not connecting.
• 9:23
  We're not collaborating, and we're not sure what that is.
• 9:27
  And so a lot of what I do is go in and just give a totally different lens and perspective
• 9:33
  on the people in the room.
• 9:34
  So for an example, I just worked with the leadership team a couple weeks ago that brought
• 9:40
  me in, and we were just working on the fact that some people were not working in a space in
• 9:47
  which they felt confident and capable.
• 9:50
  And we found that out when we were just playing with working on doing some building activities,
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  when we're working on collaborating.
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  We found out, oh, actually, there's a lot of people who are not in alignment with the things
• 10:01
  that they're really good at.
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  So the things that they're really good at are being suppressed, and the things that make them
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  feel like they would take risks and talk to other people and collaborate with other people,
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  those are actually not happening in their work.
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  And so the work that I do actually helps them recognize it first in themselves.
• 10:19
  Wow.
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  There are things that that I love about what I do, and there are things that are totally out
• 10:23
  of alignment for my skills.
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  And so by the end of the day, people really come back to this, k.
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  Maybe people aren't we aren't asking people the right things to do, but, also, I show them the
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  effect that stress and overwhelm and not being in alignment with what you're really good at,
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  what the effect of that is on people's bodies.
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  Right?
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  Like, when our nervous system is is on fight or flight all the time, we we may work for an
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  organization that has massive challenges with solution finding and problem solving and and
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  needs that kind of integrative seamless discussions happening.
• 11:02
  And when it's not happening, oftentimes, it's because people's nervous systems are so out of
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  alignment.
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  And when I can move them to a playful space where they're kind of what we talked about when
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  you said at the beginning, when people are kinda they're lost in the moment, when we can
• 11:20
  get into that space, then I can really move teams into noticing because that's the key.
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  The key is noticing that when people are not playing or excited and when they're not really
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  using all of their skills, which then makes it very difficult to run a a high performance
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  unit.
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  So
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  And I guess when I listen to you, right, because, like, I know when I play, like, I'm
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  giddy and, you know, it's kinda like you're floating back in time.
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  I remember my I'll give you an example.
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  Like, I'd I grew up in a family of six, and, of course, we I grew up in Trinidad, Brandy, so
• 11:58
  there was no snow, no thought of snow.
• 12:00
  Now I understand why.
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  But, anyway, we had these terrazzo floors, and Donnie and Marie was the thing.
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  Right?
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  So I'm dating myself that back then.
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  Yeah.
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  So we would put baby powder like we were skating.
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  Remember?
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  They used to be on skates and all.
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  You know, you set your think up now that you thought, oh, wow.
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  I did that as a kid.
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  What I think happens though is our society, as soon as kids get to a certain age, and I want
• 12:29
  you to speak to this, you being the expert in this, we start to talk people out of play
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  inadvertently.
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  Like, I mean, oh, aren't you too old to do be doing that or why do you believe you know,
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  like, I was out with my friend's, grandson and he he believes he's Spider Man.
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  He goes, Roxy, when I put this over my head, I'll become Spider Man and beware.
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  And I and he was like and I'm like, the beauty of the mind of imagination and stuff like that.
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  But that being said, in our systems, different systems, we start to kinda almost pull that
• 13:08
  away.
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  Right?
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  And Oh, absolutely.
• 13:12
  How do you by the time you're seeing teams, people have been practicing not having fun.
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  For a long time.
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  For a long time.
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  Right?
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  Then they're
• 13:22
  probably like, what is the other woman gonna tell me what to do?
• 13:25
  And I'm gonna have fun and, you know, you know, at work, doesn't she know it's serious?
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  Do you you must run up against that at work.
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  All the time.
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  And the the piece about children actually, the saddest piece of all of this is that children
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  younger and younger and younger are starting to understand that play is not part of the real
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  world.
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  Right?
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  That the playing isn't going to get you anywhere.
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  And I I mean, I could talk for hours about how
• 13:54
  you could change it.
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  Like, and I I and I know you could because I know you know what I mean?
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  You embody it.
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  And then I'm honestly, we had such a good time when we all spent that time together.
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  Right?
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  Again, we're East to West Coast to give people a context, and I might see Brandy maybe once a
• 14:11
  year or the other colleagues, but it just it's almost like it it takes off years.
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  This is what it did for me.
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  For my East Coast colleagues that I don't see or West Coast colleagues, it took off years of
• 14:22
  me not knowing them because all of a sudden, we were put into such silly kind of, I'll do
• 14:28
  anything because I'm playing.
• 14:30
  Yep.
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  And and then I'm like, oh my goodness.
• 14:32
  I know Tyler that much more or Sabrina that much more.
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  And and then I and and I may only see that person once a year.
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  So I love I love that, whatever that happens.
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  Because as adults, it's almost like we get stuck in these little boxes, and we're stressed
• 14:48
  and, you know, we got deadlines and, you know, metrics and boards and all that stuff.
• 14:54
  Yeah.
• 14:54
  And, you know, it's it's tough to get back there and for a lot of people.
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  And then, like you said, people get are stressed in getting fight or flight, and
• 15:02
  they're getting sick and all that stuff.
• 15:04
  Yeah.
• 15:05
  And and to the one thing that I always say to people is play is very different for every
• 15:11
  single person because we kind of I mean, Tyler is masterful.
• 15:15
  Let me throw that in.
• 15:16
  Tyler is masterful.
• 15:18
  I know.
• 15:19
  I can't get a ball.
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  I need to call him at a better time.
• 15:21
  Shout out for Tyler.
• 15:22
  No.
• 15:23
  I can't.
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  He is masterful.
• 15:24
  Together.
• 15:26
  Place.
• 15:27
  That's just And for some people, that play is, like for me, that's just jump in full, you
• 15:34
  know, partially don't even remember what happened.
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  It was just so good.
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  Right?
• 15:37
  Yeah.
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  But for some people, that actually ignites fear.
• 15:40
  Right?
• 15:41
  You have to play in that space Mhmm.
• 15:43
  Where everyone can find that.
• 15:45
  And what that's the key is that is recognizing that everyone's play is different.
• 15:51
  So I'm gonna give you an example, and that is that one of the things that is part of my
• 15:56
  strategy is to help people understand what that actually even feels like in them.
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  Mhmm.
• 16:01
  So here's the first thing.
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  I ask this question.
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  When was the last time you did something so good that you lost track of time?
• 16:12
  So I ask that, and I can tell you that 70% of my audiences cannot remember the last time they
• 16:24
  did something so good that they lost track of time.
• 16:28
  Wow.
• 16:29
  We are overworked and underplayed in our lives, and it's actually affecting our mental health
• 16:37
  and our physical health.
• 16:39
  Yeah.
• 16:39
  So if I can help people start to notice those moments and have some during the training,
• 16:46
  which we do, and have them play in a way that feels safe and connected and and all those
• 16:53
  pieces.
• 16:54
  So I'll I'll give you an example.
• 16:56
  I'll give you an example.
• 16:57
  So in one of my sessions, we do an activity where everyone puts a piece of paper behind
• 17:02
  their back, and they attempt to make a tree behind their back.
• 17:06
  It is right?
• 17:07
  There is nothing there's nothing scary or frightening about it.
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  We just all try to make a tree, and then we bring it out.
• 17:13
  Well, in that single activity that takes about one minute, people say, I was so busy thinking
• 17:19
  about the tree and trying to make it behind my back, and I was laughing at other people.
• 17:22
  And I looked over, and I saw them having so much fun.
• 17:25
  And then when we brought the trees out, we were all laughing about who did what.
• 17:29
  In that moment, I can actually show them the physiology of what happens.
• 17:35
  Right?
• 17:35
  What happens when we take that one minute when we're in play?
• 17:41
  Yeah.
• 17:41
  When our brain and our body actually are like, all I care about right now is the laughter
• 17:47
  that's happening, the three stories about the tree that someone told me after.
• 17:51
  It's so lasting.
• 17:54
  So if we can bring people into that, we can have really tough conversations there.
• 17:59
  Right?
• 17:59
  We can actually once we've played, once our body kinda gets grounded and we're back in that
• 18:05
  zone where, like, we're curious and open and, you know, we're actually listening to other
• 18:10
  people because that's what play does.
• 18:12
  Right?
• 18:12
  It puts us in that space where, I listen better.
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  I can actually hear myself better.
• 18:18
  I'm more authentic.
• 18:19
  All those things happen when we're in play.
• 18:22
  So if I can create that scenario, which is what I do, then we're having really honest,
• 18:28
  authentic conversations that last a long time after you spend a day with me or an afternoon
• 18:33
  with me.
• 18:33
  Yes.
• 18:34
  And that's what play does.
• 18:35
  It's it actually changes the way we see ourselves and others.
• 18:40
  It's it's it's not magic.
• 18:42
  It's science.
• 18:42
  But
• 18:43
  And it's sometimes so simple too.
• 18:45
  Right?
• 18:45
  You think of, you know, trying to do something and being so bad at it, and you're killing
• 18:49
  yourself because you think, oh my god.
• 18:51
  I suck at this.
• 18:52
  Right?
• 18:53
  Because we're always trying to be so competent as adults.
• 18:56
  Like, even outside of the workplace, we're trying to be the thing, look like the certain
• 19:00
  thing, dress a certain way.
• 19:01
  We're always adulting, really, to some degree that we miss that part.
• 19:06
  And, you know, if you look at your when your children are small, I I see your grandchildren
• 19:09
  online.
• 19:11
  Like, they just bring something out of even being around them.
• 19:13
  It's I find, like, that it's by osmosis, and they're silly, and you're silly, and we but
• 19:19
  people do get more disconnected as they go, and then that kind of plays out.
• 19:24
  And then when you have conflict or when you have change, I think about what where we're at,
• 19:29
  the space we're at with what's happening globally with our our our the realities of what
• 19:33
  some companies are gonna be going through.
• 19:35
  That's gonna that's gonna heighten the stress, and then people are gonna get more anxious.
• 19:40
  And when they get more anxious, they're gonna buckle down and probably do the opposite, which
• 19:44
  is play as being completely present.
• 19:46
  Right?
• 19:47
  Ultimately, that's what play is.
• 19:49
  Yeah.
• 19:50
  Well, as we see all of these things compounded, which we do.
• 19:54
  Right?
• 19:54
  We're seeing all of those things compounded.
• 19:56
  If you're the leadership of an organization and you really you know, your work is to make sure
• 20:03
  that people, you know, stay capable and connected and, you know, doing the work and
• 20:11
  enjoying and and all of those things, you're that's your work, then I would say you have to
• 20:17
  know and help them find play because that's the thing that's gonna combat all of the overwhelm
• 20:26
  that comes out of what's happening.
• 20:27
  Mhmm.
• 20:28
  Right?
• 20:28
  And people will think that's the opposite answer to all of it.
• 20:32
  Right?
• 20:32
  Let's get more serious.
• 20:33
  Hurdles.
• 20:34
  Let's let's buckle down
• 20:35
  versus buckle down, get more serious.
• 20:38
  Right?
• 20:38
  Yeah.
• 20:38
  Yeah.
• 20:38
  But when we do that, we actually throw our nervous system into that fight or flight all
• 20:43
  the time.
• 20:44
  So we're constantly there.
• 20:45
  So if our job is, oh my gosh.
• 20:47
  We're gonna have to make major changes in this organization.
• 20:49
  You want people to be, right, grounded and open and curious, not scared all the time.
• 20:56
  And so that's actually that's the change that needs to happen is that if we buckle down and
• 21:03
  get really serious and super focused, we actually take out all the opportunity for
• 21:09
  thinking in a different way and being able to listen to others.
• 21:12
  We actually shut out other people.
• 21:14
  We create silos, and we over perform.
• 21:17
  All of those things are a result of that.
• 21:20
  And in play, if we can get people just to understand what it feels like, because that's
• 21:25
  actually the first thing.
• 21:27
  Right?
• 21:27
  What does it actually feel like when I'm in play?
• 21:30
  And if 70% of the people that I work with can't even imagine more than last time they felt like
• 21:35
  that, we really need people need help to find that place.
• 21:40
  And that's that's a lot of my work.
• 21:43
  And it's simple things.
• 21:45
  Like, when you say it's simple things, it really is.
• 21:47
  There is people who don't realize that their play is when the office supplies come in, and
• 21:53
  they can't wait to unbox the office supply.
• 21:56
  That actually makes them feel giddy inside.
• 21:58
  Right?
• 21:59
  They're unboxing it, and they're like, oh, all the markers haven't been touched and the you
• 22:03
  know, all the pads of paper.
• 22:05
  That's their play, but nobody told them it was play or joy.
• 22:09
  Yeah.
• 22:09
  But those are the moments that we need people to notice.
• 22:13
  Yeah.
• 22:13
  Right?
• 22:13
  We need people to notice that so that on the days when when we can't find any of it, do we
• 22:20
  know where we can find some of it?
• 22:22
  And the laughter.
• 22:23
  Right?
• 22:23
  The I think the when I I mean, I'm sure most of us, when I laugh, I cry.
• 22:29
  Yeah.
• 22:29
  When I get to the point that I'm laughing so hard and I I often joke around and I say, I
• 22:34
  have to remember this moment because I'm laughing so I I'm crying and I can't stop.
• 22:40
  Right?
• 22:40
  And then you're like, oh my goodness.
• 22:42
  I need to bring that back to me with me to remember that drop down, that anchoring of that
• 22:47
  moment in time because it's you could tell.
• 22:50
  Like, every happy hormone in my body is going freaking out.
• 22:55
  And I'm just thinking about it in reference to when there's conflict or change.
• 22:59
  Right?
• 22:59
  If you think of change and the flux and the ambiguity, if you can bring a little bit of
• 23:04
  that, we're just, I would say, kind of human beings to each other too as well.
• 23:08
  Right?
• 23:09
  Yeah.
• 23:09
  Yeah.
• 23:10
  And so in play, I can put people in situations where they're not gonna agree with each other
• 23:17
  and all of you know, that they have conflict.
• 23:19
  I and I can set up the place so that it looks like that.
• 23:22
  But when it's play, we actually see where people's natural resources are.
• 23:27
  Like, we actually
• 23:28
  see You pull you pull that out from the play.
• 23:30
  So if you're working with a team.
• 23:32
  Right?
• 23:32
  And Yeah.
• 23:32
  You're thinking, oh, there's no way, and you're just naturally kinda seeing what they bring
• 23:37
  with them.
• 23:38
  And then from that, I guess you could pull that out with a strategic plan.
• 23:41
  You could probably build
• 23:42
  That's exactly.
• 23:43
  Change.
• 23:44
  You could probably you know, if you have tried to be innovative with maybe a new business
• 23:48
  product, all those different things.
• 23:50
  Right?
• 23:51
  What play because, like, you're right.
• 23:52
  If you think about innovation is getting out of your normal kind of modus operandi of doing
• 23:59
  something in a standard way, play is the opposite of that because you do things when
• 24:03
  you're playing and you think, oh my god.
• 24:05
  I can't believe I just did that.
• 24:07
  You know?
• 24:07
  Yeah.
• 24:08
  And to be honest, I've had COOs who were looking at, like, what are we going to do today
• 24:15
  to the point where we're we're in play, and they're finding out, oh my goodness.
• 24:20
  I didn't even realize I love that part.
• 24:23
  So we can be building paper airplanes, right, and be in a paper airplane playing contest, for
• 24:29
  example.
• 24:30
  And what we find out is that if you didn't know how to make the plane, there's three people
• 24:34
  that did.
• 24:35
  And if, you know, that you actually have resources in people that you didn't know were
• 24:39
  there.
• 24:40
  But if I do it in an activity where we are it's it's stress free.
• 24:44
  It's safe.
• 24:44
  Right?
• 24:45
  It's a safe place.
• 24:47
  Then, actually, the person who loves building and collecting and all of a sudden, you know,
• 24:54
  finds out, oh, that actually is one of my key assets, but it doesn't come out when the stress
• 24:59
  is on.
• 25:00
  Right?
• 25:01
  So I'm I'm actually have huge resources that aren't there when the stress is there.
• 25:06
  So I can take that from the play, and now we can take it and actually look at what's
• 25:11
  actually going on in an organization, which is hard to do when we're under pressure and things
• 25:17
  are tight and Absolutely.
• 25:19
  Because it's wanna control an outcome.
• 25:21
  Right?
• 25:21
  Yeah.
• 25:21
  Yeah.
• 25:21
  Because it's the opposite of psychological safety.
• 25:24
  What you're saying is that and what I'm hearing you say is it's transparency, it's trust, it's
• 25:30
  Roxanne's perspective is going to be validated as much as Brandy's and, you know, as Brandy's
• 25:36
  colorful and Roxanne's kind of black and white or whatever.
• 25:39
  Because, really, when I think of teams that I work with and organizations with leaders, the
• 25:45
  the people wanna just be able to be free enough to share perspective.
• 25:49
  Right?
• 25:50
  No silly no no opinion is silly enough.
• 25:53
  You can you put it out there, but you you could see what when there's a lack of trust, and I'm
• 25:57
  sure you see it a lot with when you do play.
• 25:59
  Time.
• 26:00
  And then what people associate with play because that must bring up things from people's
• 26:03
  past too, I would think.
• 26:05
  And being able to try to make them safe enough to realize maybe that's maybe you could learn
• 26:11
  to play the way you naturally should be playing kind of thing.
• 26:14
  So I'm sure it brings up a lot of different things.
• 26:18
  It does.
• 26:18
  And play as a word, it's funny.
• 26:21
  We probably have all done this, but we have a word.
• 26:25
  There's so many in our vocabulary that ignite all sorts of different feelings of joy and and
• 26:31
  fear.
• 26:31
  Like, they can be everything from joy to fear.
• 26:34
  And one of the things about play is being able to give people permission for it to not look
• 26:41
  like or seem like their lived experience with it or where they've been with it, but how they
• 26:49
  are with it in the present.
• 26:50
  And last year, I had the absolute honor of working with an organization in Winnipeg called
• 26:55
  Plan Mothers Healing Village with women and trans individuals who are experiencing sexual
• 27:02
  abuse and sexual trauma.
• 27:03
  So their stories of play are not positive.
• 27:08
  And yet what we did was help them rewrite that story for themselves.
• 27:11
  Right?
• 27:12
  We're
• 27:12
  so good.
• 27:13
  Gonna be hitting up against some and then I think what I think of as a psychotherapist is
• 27:17
  that you're gonna get, people's perception of what they were allowed to do versus Mhmm.
• 27:24
  But when you are able to kinda create that place of safety so they can step into it, like,
• 27:29
  what a a deeply healing space to have.
• 27:32
  Right?
• 27:33
  Because, really, I I often say if you look at little ones and you look at them and they're so
• 27:38
  raw.
• 27:39
  Right?
• 27:39
  And you're like, what are you talking who you're playing with?
• 27:41
  What?
• 27:41
  I don't know their name.
• 27:42
  Oh, there's just several?
• 27:44
  Who are they?
• 27:44
  Where are they?
• 27:45
  I can't tell because then you can't be part of it.
• 27:47
  And then you get into that world.
• 27:50
  Right?
• 27:50
  So I can see how with trauma, and that's one of the specialties I had when I practiced.
• 27:55
  Brandy, it's it's I could see how Yeah.
• 27:57
  How powerful that could be.
• 27:59
  Very powerful.
• 28:00
  Yeah.
• 28:01
  It really is.
• 28:02
  And I I think one of the things you and you touched on it is that when we're not feeling
• 28:07
  joy, like, we kinda just feel numbness all the time, which as adults, we can get really good
• 28:13
  at.
• 28:14
  Obviously, you know that.
• 28:16
  Is that the kind of the opposite to play is that we set up what I call show homes.
• 28:21
  Right?
• 28:21
  Like, we set up these kinda show home facades.
• 28:24
  So
• 28:25
  we find Yeah.
• 28:26
  Like, I'm supposed to be a I'm supposed to act a certain way.
• 28:28
  I'm supposed to
• 28:29
  be a certain way.
• 28:29
  I'm supposed to dress a certain way.
• 28:31
  I'm supposed to everything's supposed
• 28:33
  to be.
• 28:33
  And then we're just I think we've become adept at it.
• 28:37
  Right?
• 28:37
  We've become very adept at it.
• 28:38
  I know from personal experience, and I share this when I speak, is that as a college
• 28:44
  professor, I was very, very good at producing a show home.
• 28:47
  I was fun instructor, fun mom.
• 28:50
  I had my name on the door traveling the world.
• 28:52
  I was doing all of those things.
• 28:53
  And if you looked at it, it was a show home.
• 28:55
  It was beautiful.
• 28:57
  Right?
• 28:58
  But on the other side, right, I was running a complete fixer upper.
• 29:02
  I was living with depression and anxiety Wow.
• 29:06
  And trying to keep up all this beautiful show home all the time.
• 29:10
  And, eventually, I'd almost I'd almost lose my career.
• 29:14
  I would almost lose my family.
• 29:15
  Right?
• 29:15
  So I know what the effect of not being in play looks like.
• 29:20
  I've lived through that.
• 29:23
  And I know what it feels like to try to produce a show home every day.
• 29:27
  Right?
• 29:28
  To try and be the strongest person in the room and make sure everyone's okay and be the leader
• 29:32
  and be at the front of the room and say, everything's gonna be okay while you're
• 29:37
  struggling.
• 29:38
  Because I think that's the essence of play for me Mhmm.
• 29:42
  Is that when we're always producing that show home, we can't play.
• 29:45
  We're not authentic.
• 29:48
  Yeah.
• 29:48
  Then when you're the lead when you're the leader,
• 29:50
  you're yeah.
• 29:50
  Well, when you're the leader, Randy, to your point, you that show home is on most of the
• 29:55
  time.
• 29:56
  So learning how you can play potentially maybe not in the work environment, but make sure that
• 30:01
  you have it built into different parts of your life so that you could get whatever it is that
• 30:06
  invigorates you to be able to come and be able to go into that environment and be the best
• 30:11
  versions of yourself.
• 30:12
  I talk about it with the ROR that I talk about, which is return on relationship.
• 30:16
  And I didn't ever talk about play in my book, but I feel like I've missed something there
• 30:21
  because I talk about connection, communication, all that stuff.
• 30:23
  But it's so important as when you're leading, you're still a person.
• 30:28
  You're still a person that has all these facets, and you people are constantly looking
• 30:33
  up to you for guidance.
• 30:35
  And if you don't have behind the house kinda figured out to your point, you know Yep.
• 30:40
  That show that showhouse is gonna showplace is gonna kinda crash at some point.
• 30:44
  So the importance of play even with those leaders become important.
• 30:49
  Now that's where I was gonna go next, and I know we're almost out of time.
• 30:52
  But what how do you let's say you get brought in and you're like, oh, it's them.
• 31:00
  It's not us.
• 31:01
  It's the leadership.
• 31:02
  And it's once you just fix them, Brandy, it's gonna be all good.
• 31:06
  Right?
• 31:06
  If if there's a disparity between the leader leader leadership team seeing the value about
• 31:14
  them being in play so that they can in turn I'm gonna say receive what the frontline needs from
• 31:19
  them.
• 31:20
  If there's disparity, how do you work with them to try to build that bridge, I'm gonna say?
• 31:26
  Well, one of the first things actually, one of the programs I run or one of the keynotes I do
• 31:30
  is called leaders play first, which is actually really the fundamental pieces that if we are
• 31:36
  gonna ask employees to show up, be present, be loyal, be innovative, be all of those things,
• 31:44
  then they also need to see you be in play.
• 31:49
  Right?
• 31:49
  So I often people often ask me, if it's a human resources company or an org part of the
• 31:55
  organization, should human resources be in the room?
• 31:58
  That's I often get that.
• 31:59
  Should HR be in the room when the employees are taking are playing?
• 32:03
  Right?
• 32:04
  There's pieces to all of that.
• 32:06
  When the people that you're working with, the you play, it's number one, it's vulnerable, but
• 32:14
  it also sets up this whole piece of trust.
• 32:17
  Right?
• 32:17
  There's a huge trust that happens when we can do that together.
• 32:21
  And so when there is a, yeah, us and them that kind of tell them to do that and we'll do
• 32:26
  something different, that's actually one of the great dividers of play is I expect you to do it
• 32:32
  over here because it's good for our retention and Right.
• 32:34
  Right.
• 32:35
  And resilience and all the things.
• 32:36
  Right?
• 32:37
  And so you go do it over here.
• 32:38
  I don't really even understand what happens, but if it's good for us, then great.
• 32:43
  The greatest thing that can happen is when leadership says, let's try and do this
• 32:48
  together.
• 32:49
  And I know that's hard because it's hard for multiple reasons.
• 32:54
  But when leaders and groups play together, right, when managers and their teams play
• 32:59
  together, it is it will change the full dynamic of what you do together.
• 33:06
  Yeah.
• 33:06
  Because it would I think it would destratify that that innate kind of, you know, perception
• 33:12
  of one level versus another because if somebody is just rolling around like we were at that
• 33:18
  time, crawling Yeah.
• 33:20
  All the things we were, then you forget who it is.
• 33:23
  Really, you do forget who it is.
• 33:24
  And then you're like, that you're not so good at that or you're silly or I'm silly or I'm
• 33:29
  killing myself, so I'm looking at you.
• 33:31
  It does bring that that good energy.
• 33:33
  Right?
• 33:33
  Like, that space.
• 33:34
  So that's that that would be the blue, I would think.
• 33:37
  Right?
• 33:37
  Versus Yeah.
• 33:38
  You know, the autocratic top down kind of level that Yeah.
• 33:42
  Right?
• 33:42
  And you have to have that level to run certain things in the org.
• 33:45
  Absolutely.
• 33:46
  But then you can go back and and see each other through a different lens that allows you to
• 33:52
  just kinda do your best thing because we all kinda wanna do our I think most people most of
• 33:57
  us wanna do the best version of what we need to do for eight to ten hours if we're in the
• 34:02
  company and then go home.
• 34:03
  But if we're if I'm kinda disjointed and stressed and all that stuff and not trusting,
• 34:08
  then I'm not I'm gonna show up, do my thing, give you a twenty I've heard this line.
• 34:12
  Twenty minutes at a time.
• 34:13
  Right?
• 34:13
  Like, when I'm so Yep.
• 34:15
  Burnt out versus, oh, I'm just gonna I wanna be remembered for doing the best job I could kind
• 34:21
  of thing.
• 34:23
  And it really does narrow those margins because what happens is that leaders and managers look
• 34:29
  at the people they work with and for, and all of a sudden, they start to understand, oh,
• 34:34
  like, when we do this work together, that's why people invest.
• 34:39
  That's why people love that part.
• 34:41
  But they haven't been able to see that until we were in play and someone said, you know what?
• 34:46
  When that type of file comes across my desk, that is the best thing.
• 34:50
  Like, you could send me that all day.
• 34:52
  It's my favorite thing.
• 34:53
  And if leadership never knows that or managers never know that, then they don't know that on
• 34:57
  the days when things are hard and difficult, hey.
• 35:01
  There is something that actually gives them great joy, and it's almost none of what I'm
• 35:05
  talking about costs a single dime.
• 35:08
  Right?
• 35:08
  It's a nonstop
• 35:10
  like a secret sauce that you can pull out Right.
• 35:13
  And, get people back into that, like, state, really.
• 35:17
  Mhmm.
• 35:17
  That state.
• 35:18
  Right?
• 35:18
  Which is, I feel good kind of thing.
• 35:21
  Yeah.
• 35:21
  Yep.
• 35:22
  But, Brandy, this is well, I wanna go out and play now.
• 35:24
  I'm gonna find something to do.
• 35:25
  I have to it's always a pleasure to talk about, like, and be in play with you, I can tell you.
• 35:32
  And I look forward to the next time we'll all be together to be able to to to play again.
• 35:37
  So, Brandy, for any last words or any tips for any people out there that are listening and
• 35:43
  they go, that's not about me.
• 35:45
  Any couple of little tips you wanna leave behind for people or a thought?
• 35:51
  Well, there there's two things.
• 35:53
  You don't have
• 35:54
  to change anything.
• 35:55
  Play doesn't require you to change anything that you have or do right now.
• 36:00
  Like, it's not an add to your to do list.
• 36:01
  It's not schedule it for fifteen minutes in your schedule.
• 36:05
  It's actually already inside you biologically.
• 36:08
  So we just have to go back in and help you find it.
• 36:12
  Yeah.
• 36:12
  And that's everybody.
• 36:14
  And and the other thing is to really take a look at at noticing at noticing the moments
• 36:21
  when you feel playful or grounded or safe and what that feels like.
• 36:26
  Because if we go back to that's actually we all need that right now.
• 36:30
  We need that space.
• 36:31
  I I more than ever, why more than ever more than ever than ever.
• 36:34
  More than ever.
• 36:35
  More than ever.
• 36:36
  I think, yeah, we have to try to reconnect to what's who, what, when, and why.
• 36:40
  And if play brings that out of us and helps us to focus in on that, I would suggest that
• 36:46
  everybody go out that's listening and try to do something fun that maybe you used to do that
• 36:51
  maybe you got away from in in the next little while.
• 36:54
  So, Brandy, for everybody listening that would like to reach out and connect, where can they
• 36:58
  get ahold
• 36:59
  of you?
• 37:00
  The best way to get ahold of me is probably through my website, which is
• 37:04
  www.BrandyHeather.com.
• 37:07
  But they can also reach out to me by email, and all of those things are connected to my
• 37:12
  website.
• 37:12
  So please do that.
• 37:13
  Ask questions.
• 37:14
  Be curious.
• 37:15
  I'm always happy to jump on a conversation and talk about how it could be amazing for your
• 37:21
  organization and for you personally too.
• 37:23
  So
• 37:24
  Awesome.
• 37:24
  Well, Brandy, this has been a pleasure for everyone.
• 37:26
  Thanks for hanging out with us again this week.
• 37:28
  What am I taking away?
• 37:30
  That when I think of ROR, I'm gonna ask leaders how did they play maybe in the last quarter to
• 37:38
  see what I could pull out of them when I'm talking to them about connection.
• 37:42
  And for anybody that wants to know a little bit know more about how they connect in their
• 37:47
  relationships either at home or work, just go to roxanderhodge.com/quiz.
• 37:52
  Fill out a little quiz, and we'll send you back some results and, next steps.
• 37:56
  Again, Brandy, thanks so much for your time.
• 37:58
  Everyone else, thanks for hanging out with me again, and we'll chat with you soon.
• 38:02
  Take care.
• 38:04
  Thanks.
• 38:06
  Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 38:11
  healthy change.
• 38:12
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
• 38:16
  To work with Roxanne, visit roxannederhage.com/blueprint.
• 38:23
  We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.