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Ireland’s 'Golden Era' Ending? France Delivers a Reality Check - Rugby Rivals · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

• 0:00
  Have you recovered off to the weekend from me?
• 0:03
  Not really, no, I think there's going to be a lot of recovering over the next number of weeks.
• 0:07
  What's happened? What is wrong? Front at home do a reasonably good
• 0:12
  self-reggaring impression in terms of that physicality and that physical confrontation
• 0:16
  and we did not meet that one bit.
• 0:18
  What England have done, both looks just taken them back to their DNA.
• 0:22
  They've got tough loose forwards, they've got hardworking, front five,
• 0:25
  play a really good kicking game and they can now have got an outside back
• 0:29
  that can actually do something once they get over that advantage line.
• 0:32
  The one thing I want to see is can they stand up against a physicality
• 0:36
  or thrones or the spring box?
• 0:39
  I've asked Robby's in crisis, really, really kind of deep crisis.
• 0:42
  So they can't say anything technically because you don't have a coach in New Zealand.
• 0:46
  You don't know what you're doing at the moment.
• 0:48
  So you'll just stay away from that.
• 0:50
  That's what you're facing in a product.
• 0:52
  You're a flyer, you've got international experience. Did you have five minutes?
• 1:01
  Welcome back to Rivals for 2026 and you're a nice drink bottle J.K.
• 1:08
  Interesting start to the Six Nations.
• 1:11
  France and England look unbeatable and doesn't look like Ireland's going to win a game.
• 1:16
  Yeah, fair enough.
• 1:18
  I think this has been coming for a while, hasn't it?
• 1:21
  I was the middleman, whatever happened during the Robby's championship,
• 1:26
  kind of an environment not so much, but not nice.
• 1:29
  It's time for me to get a bit of heat and rightly so.
• 1:32
  Yeah, Ireland are looking fairly shoddy.
• 1:35
  I think everybody's worried over here, but not surprised.
• 1:38
  I think the anticipation of the game we were going out,
• 1:41
  we're going to get smashed at set peace.
• 1:43
  We're going to struggle, line is going to struggle.
• 1:45
  Those were the only two things.
• 1:46
  Actually, weren't too bad.
• 1:47
  They survived.
• 1:48
  Okay, defense was brutal.
• 1:49
  Couldn't catch your past breakdown as a disaster.
• 1:52
  And France were incredible.
• 1:54
  I thought France were unreal.
• 1:56
  So yeah, it was actually.
• 1:58
  So I don't understand that at all because like you've gone from World Cup favourites.
• 2:05
  Obviously getting knocked out.
• 2:08
  You know, what's happened?
• 2:10
  What is wrong?
• 2:11
  You can't go from, you know, and why?
• 2:14
  I mean, hey, what's wrong?
• 2:16
  B, why were you surprised?
• 2:18
  Because I was surprised.
• 2:20
  I feel like it.
• 2:22
  Well, I mean, if you're watching the South Africa game,
• 2:25
  Ireland South Africa game in November,
• 2:27
  that was kind of the level of physicality that we were at.
• 2:30
  And the beating, we were just second best by a million miles that day.
• 2:35
  Now, I know comparing the South Africa is not like comparing to anybody else,
• 2:39
  but France at home do a reasonably good South Africa impression in terms of that physicality
• 2:44
  and that physical confrontation.
• 2:46
  And we did not meet that one bit.
• 2:48
  But as I said, I thought it was going to be elsewhere.
• 2:50
  It's that piece.
• 2:51
  But physically, France were incredible.
• 2:54
  Guillard, the big second rule with the dreadlocks was just skittling lads,
• 2:59
  left, right, and centre.
• 3:00
  And then once they got that physical dominance,
• 3:03
  then they offload came and the subtlety came and the PSK,
• 3:06
  and the X factor came and the French crowd got into it.
• 3:09
  And it was, yeah, we were chasing massively.
• 3:12
  It was a lesson learned.
• 3:14
  I think there's probably from an Irish perspective,
• 3:17
  there was 15 or 20 minutes in that second half where you could easily say,
• 3:22
  oh, there's a lot of characters shown.
• 3:24
  I think there's something in that where they can maybe go from there,
• 3:28
  and they can be as okay, actually we can't be reasonably competitive with ball and hand.
• 3:32
  If we get tempo, if we get a breakdown quick,
• 3:34
  we can't get run the corner and threaten defences.
• 3:37
  But it was, I mean, that there's a slim pickings from that.
• 3:40
  Everything else, we were second best.
• 3:42
  And France, I thought France were incredible.
• 3:44
  That French backline, the pack did the job,
• 3:46
  and then they just flung it out wide,
• 3:48
  and they let their, their pace and their X factor do the talking.
• 3:51
  And they put it on a show, it's like the France.
• 3:53
  Tramby, you were, you said lawsuit somewhere,
• 3:55
  you said we'd back to the 19s.
• 3:57
  You don't, you don't think this is like an innovative golden era for Ireland,
• 4:01
  for Ireland, right?
• 4:02
  We Ireland had, right?
• 4:03
  We had like a golden era.
• 4:05
  But do there have enough players, enough talent come through
• 4:09
  to be at that level for, let's say, 40, 50 years?
• 4:13
  Or was this really like a golden era that's just coming to the end
• 4:17
  and the, the new talent coming through isn't quite up there?
• 4:21
  Maybe I don't want to be too dramatic about it,
• 4:23
  because it do feel like there are,
• 4:25
  there are a couple of things in that Irish performance
• 4:27
  that can be fixed.
• 4:29
  Defensively, we can, we can front up.
• 4:31
  I think even that, that 15 can front up,
• 4:33
  that 23 can front up way better.
• 4:35
  I think they can fix some things around their line speed.
• 4:37
  They can fix something around their defensive breakdown.
• 4:39
  They can create breakdown pressure, get there with, get that line speed.
• 4:42
  There's a couple of long, floaty passes from France, and we can sort that out.
• 4:45
  So there are a few things, quick fixes, things can change quickly.
• 4:49
  But, so, so France had a, you know, maybe five, six years ago,
• 4:55
  the 10 years before that, France were pretty dormant.
• 4:57
  Pretty, they were a rabble.
• 4:59
  They didn't really have much going on.
• 5:01
  And they were scrapping together performances,
• 5:03
  changing teams, changing coaches all over the place.
• 5:05
  So that forgot our bar and period.
• 5:07
  So that England, just with Eddie Jones,
• 5:09
  had a difficult period.
• 5:11
  But the pop, like the playing population, those, those countries,
• 5:13
  it's so huge.
• 5:15
  They're all, the pendulum's always on a swing back.
• 5:17
  In Ireland, four provinces.
• 5:19
  Like if one or two of those provinces don't go so well,
• 5:23
  got two Irish provinces playing in the second tier.
• 5:25
  We've got Lancer, not quite.
• 5:27
  They're still, they got a good draw in Europe.
• 5:29
  They're going to be maybe one of the favourites, maybe, you know,
• 5:31
  two French sides to lose, Bordeaux, maybe third favourite in Europe.
• 5:35
  So they're close enough, but they're not the lense that they were
• 5:37
  whenever you're talking about that generation,
• 5:39
  that couple of period, couple of years of Irish dominance in world rugby.
• 5:43
  And they looked incredible. So whenever Ireland or Wales or Scotland drop off,
• 5:47
  I think it takes maybe longer for them to bounce back.
• 5:51
  Whereas you see that bounce back initially from, from those bigger rugby countries,
• 5:55
  because they've got, there's so much weight and momentum in those countries.
• 5:57
  And there's such rugby pedigree in them.
• 5:59
  I think it takes us a little bit longer to bounce back.
• 6:01
  And that's the worrying thing.
• 6:03
  If Ireland do drop off, you wonder, could this be for a little bit longer
• 6:07
  than it would be elsewhere?
• 6:09
  Have you got any training for Ireland?
• 6:11
  Have you got any training for Ireland?
• 6:13
  I've got a thin side, links to getting really hard, like,
• 6:15
  jogging in all this other African style.
• 6:17
  Doesn't look like they're quite the same with Ireland.
• 6:21
  Is there like an in between that they're not sure what they're doing?
• 6:25
  Yeah, that's what they're doing.
• 6:27
  I mean, it's so, it's so funny, Irish pundits and
• 6:33
  they're scrambling right, trying to find someone to blame.
• 6:37
  So we've got, I mean, if you're not from Ulster or Jacob Stalker,
• 6:43
  it gets the blame.
• 6:44
  If you're not from Lester, if you're from Monster or some
• 6:47
  Prindergast, it gets the blame.
• 6:49
  Some people are blame in Jack Neenembar for Ireland
• 6:52
  at the weekend.
• 6:53
  So this is like the theory of it.
• 6:55
  I saw it.
• 6:56
  It's so funny.
• 6:57
  It's just, whatever the skill set and the past, you know,
• 7:02
  catch past and everything I got, but I suppose,
• 7:04
  maybe disrupting that Irish defense and bringing in something
• 7:07
  that I think is formidable.
• 7:09
  I think South Africa has showed that if it's implemented correctly,
• 7:12
  it's the best defense in the world, break down pressure with
• 7:15
  line speak, make reads.
• 7:16
  That's really difficult.
• 7:17
  It just, it just strangles opposition.
• 7:19
  Lester, they haven't quite got there with it, but as a result, you know,
• 7:24
  they've caught like, there's a little bit of confusion.
• 7:26
  Maybe going back and forth between Irish camp and Lester camp, there's so many
• 7:29
  Lester guys training one way and then playing in blue one way and then
• 7:33
  playing different in green.
• 7:34
  But I saw, we, I thought we saw the worst version of other weekend.
• 7:37
  For me, if you just bring in the Neenembar, if you just bring in
• 7:41
  speed shooters, if you just create that chaos, that chaos plants the seed,
• 7:45
  do I throw this past and not throw this past the uncertainty around
• 7:48
  decision-making with that French attack?
• 7:50
  It needed, like, no, Gary Ringles is probably the one guy who,
• 7:53
  who, who shoots up, makes decisions.
• 7:55
  He's breathing defense, but he just got one or two reads wrong and just got
• 7:59
  beaten into that, into that hole by that, that French attacker.
• 8:02
  And yeah, it felt like, it felt like they didn't do either of well.
• 8:07
  They didn't do what, they didn't pass that Irish defense and they didn't do
• 8:10
  that sort of offense.
• 8:11
  So, yeah, it feels like they're maybe a little bit of confusion.
• 8:14
  And it is hard to go back and forth.
• 8:16
  What's up?
• 8:17
  You're getting me down.
• 8:18
  I'll just come back from the summer break.
• 8:19
  I was feeling good about myself.
• 8:21
  I know.
• 8:22
  Let's look at France.
• 8:23
  Let's get Victor to tell us about this World Cup by the World Cup wins.
• 8:27
  Just a quick pump up our tires here and then we'll get back to it.
• 8:30
  Should I get, should I get, can't say anything technically because you don't
• 8:34
  have a coaching unit.
• 8:35
  You don't know what you're doing at the moment.
• 8:37
  I'll just stay away from that.
• 8:39
  That's not a problem.
• 8:40
  That's not a problem.
• 8:41
  You apply, you get international experience.
• 8:43
  Did you apply, man?
• 8:44
  We had, we had 13 generations.
• 8:47
  We had 13 applications down to three.
• 8:52
  The three, the three that I think are Jamie Joseph, Dave Rinne,
• 8:58
  but I don't know who the third is and I was just saying before it could be Warren
• 9:02
  Getman, but I'm pretty sure that I'm making the decision in the next week or so.
• 9:07
  So we'll be back to having a coach, Victor.
• 9:10
  It's a massive year, mate.
• 9:11
  It's a massive year for us.
• 9:13
  We're working with a positive story, isn't it?
• 9:15
  It's the beginning of a positive story.
• 9:17
  We know I have a coach.
• 9:19
  I don't love.
• 9:20
  Little steps, mate.
• 9:23
  Let's look at France.
• 9:25
  Although Ireland went at their best, I mean, France were outstanding.
• 9:30
  I mean, to see what the ceiling could be of this French side.
• 9:34
  We all know how emotional French sides can be if they get off to a start like that
• 9:37
  and they get their teals up there.
• 9:39
  It feels like they're unbeatable at home.
• 9:42
  Now, Dupont, obviously, best night in the world, one of the best players in the world.
• 9:46
  But then just marry that with Jalibar and what he's been doing with Bordeaux
• 9:49
  and you've got two absolute magicians.
• 9:51
  And it shows you what the rest of the world will be.
• 9:54
  Certainly Irish, the Irish perspective is, well, maybe those two are two rock stars.
• 9:58
  Maybe it's hard for them to co-exist in the same team.
• 10:01
  Well, they co-existed extremely well at the weekend.
• 10:04
  And you probably add Ramos to that list as well.
• 10:07
  And the X-Factor, he brings in.
• 10:09
  So once they get the dominance up front, then you get to showcase what they're capable of
• 10:13
  and they were incredible.
• 10:15
  The other thing about that French performance is the different, the occasion
• 10:19
  and start to France.
• 10:20
  JK and I were just talking about it before we came on.
• 10:23
  It was like a nightclub before.
• 10:25
  There were lights, disco.
• 10:27
  It was absolutely amazing.
• 10:29
  If you're a neutral and you're not into rugby, that's how you win the hearts.
• 10:32
  That's how you create a fun experience.
• 10:34
  It was amazing.
• 10:36
  And then that was matched by that French performance.
• 10:39
  I thought the whole evening was incredible.
• 10:41
  Even though there was a sadness in what I was seeing in front of me
• 10:44
  from an Irish perspective.
• 10:46
  But it was still an incredible evening of rugby to be a part of.
• 10:50
  Ricardo, you open up someone to deliver me a coffee, please, Mike?
• 10:53
  No, I'm just wondering what...
• 10:55
  What's your back?
• 10:57
  Cheers, boys.
• 10:58
  Yeah.
• 11:00
  So what did you think, Victor?
• 11:02
  You haven't seen much.
• 11:03
  Apart from putting the knife into JK.
• 11:05
  What did you think of France?
• 11:07
  Yeah, so I thought I've said it the whole time.
• 11:12
  I think especially the next World Cup.
• 11:15
  France will be South Africa's biggest opposition to win it a third time.
• 11:21
  I mean, the previous World Cup everyone thought so
• 11:24
  because it was at home and it was really close.
• 11:27
  And I think they still got a young team
• 11:31
  and they still bringing new players in every tower.
• 11:34
  You think they said on certain players, new guys come in
• 11:37
  and they just outstanding.
• 11:39
  And again, if you look at European rugby at the moment,
• 11:46
  we're going to lose probably the two teams dominating that.
• 11:50
  And if you put those players together,
• 11:53
  the player that they've got, that there's a quality up front,
• 11:56
  big, strong forward.
• 11:58
  And then, I mean, you named it.
• 12:01
  I'm a big fan of Jalibur.
• 12:03
  I just think he's outstanding.
• 12:05
  Paul Bordeaux, four France and for a long time,
• 12:08
  I think they tried to keep him out to keep that spot from Intermark.
• 12:12
  I just think he's so much better
• 12:15
  and he'll bring so much more to that friend's team.
• 12:18
  And JK, did the friendship, the best one you're in the world at the moment?
• 12:22
  Yeah, I mean, I think the whole backline, like Trimby said,
• 12:26
  you know, I've played France some days
• 12:29
  where you're just chasing shadows.
• 12:31
  And when they get that, you know, some of their big men with their offloads,
• 12:35
  they used to call it a sort of Vilprestar, right?
• 12:39
  Before the tackle, just after the tackle, that Interpassing.
• 12:44
  And then for a little man, like just one of the greatest finishes, you know?
• 12:48
  So I actually agree with Trimby and Victor, I think this side.
• 12:53
  And he left some of his most famous players out, right?
• 12:57
  So he didn't pick, you know, and you talk about Intermark.
• 13:03
  But if you're going to win a World Cup, you need two or three guys in each position.
• 13:08
  So like Victor mentioned, you know, when France play all blacks in the final on Australia,
• 13:13
  it's going to be a really interesting game, you know?
• 13:16
  Because they're never going to lose in this team.
• 13:18
  But you must just get to pass a quarter final first.
• 13:22
  I'll just drink, have another drink, have another drink ball.
• 13:25
  Now, the interesting thing for me is that the physicality that France has brought.
• 13:30
  And I think, you know, I think they made a mistake in the last World Cup.
• 13:34
  I think, you know, they played two points for too long after six sort of four weeks out with an injury.
• 13:41
  So they'll learn from that.
• 13:43
  I don't think you can just win a World Cup straight off.
• 13:45
  But they've got the experience.
• 13:46
  They've got the mix.
• 13:47
  They've got young guys coming through with physicality.
• 13:49
  So they're going to be tough, man.
• 13:50
  And that's it.
• 13:51
  Let's just pivot to the England team.
• 13:53
  I mean, I've known that Wales are far from the best at the moment.
• 13:57
  But that's a, you know, I think it's 12 wins in the row for England.
• 14:01
  Yeah, we'll both work.
• 14:02
  I think both work.
• 14:03
  I think what England have done, the mistake that England have made when they've had bad runs.
• 14:09
  You've got to realise they have one of the greatest pulls of players in the world from a numbers point of view.
• 14:18
  But both works just taken them back to their DNA, right?
• 14:22
  And they play with their English DNA, right?
• 14:26
  They've got tough loose forwards.
• 14:28
  They've got hard working front five.
• 14:31
  They play a really good kicking game.
• 14:33
  And they can now have got outside backs that can actually do something once they get over that advantage line.
• 14:38
  But they won't do it until of one, you know, position and position in your half.
• 14:44
  I mean, we saw it with the all blacks in November.
• 14:46
  And I just think both looks doing a great job of English DNA.
• 14:50
  And it's bloody hard to beat.
• 14:51
  Yeah, I also think they can be a tough team to beat.
• 14:56
  We'll be interesting to see the French flee almost against the England English structure and knowing exactly what they want to do.
• 15:06
  But again, I think that offback bearing of England is very underrated.
• 15:12
  Both of them are playing outstanding rugby.
• 15:15
  George Ford at 10.
• 15:16
  It's just dominating and he's controlling everything.
• 15:20
  So yeah, can they, the one thing I want to see is can they stand up against the physicality or France or the spring box?
• 15:29
  Those are probably the one thing that we I'm not sure yet.
• 15:33
  Game control and they're doing they definitely they and I mean they've got all the free on the outside as well.
• 15:40
  Yeah, I don't like they like to jump in, but I just want to remind you that South Africa and in the six nations, right?
• 15:46
  Like not yet.
• 15:47
  I just say.
• 15:48
  Talking about the next world cup.
• 15:49
  We're talking about.
• 15:50
  Oh, you talk about it.
• 15:51
  Oh, yeah.
• 15:52
  Okay.
• 15:53
  But J.K.
• 15:54
  I just remember health Africa was in the six nations.
• 15:56
  They would win it.
• 15:57
  Well, is that fair?
• 15:59
  It's a movie double.
• 16:00
  Yeah.
• 16:01
  Yeah.
• 16:02
  At least for the road.
• 16:03
  A movie double witness.
• 16:05
  We vote the most straight away.
• 16:06
  We wouldn't want them.
• 16:09
  We're not the hardest thing.
• 16:11
  The hardest thing to be how bad at Scotland and Wales.
• 16:15
  It's the Scotland wheels are wheels are terrible at the minute.
• 16:19
  Really about was probably crisis dropped down to three regions.
• 16:23
  A few offsprays.
• 16:24
  Most offsprays players are probably expecting to be out of a job at the end of the season.
• 16:27
  So was probably in crisis really, really kind of deep crisis.
• 16:32
  Scotland.
• 16:33
  You know what Scotland are like they could get beat by Italy and they could beat England next weekend.
• 16:38
  Scotland.
• 16:39
  It's the very Scottish thing to do that.
• 16:41
  So this is to your point, Victor, England have they've had not an easy run.
• 16:49
  They've been under the radar a little bit.
• 16:51
  They haven't really been tested.
• 16:52
  Now, they look really promising.
• 16:55
  They're doing everything right.
• 16:56
  Their games coming together.
• 16:57
  They're playing with more confidence.
• 16:59
  The structure of their game.
• 17:00
  Everything looks really formidable.
• 17:02
  But they just haven't.
• 17:04
  They haven't been tested.
• 17:05
  And I'm interested to see when they're tested.
• 17:07
  And I think maybe Scotland might test them next week.
• 17:09
  Scotland are always so emotional against England.
• 17:11
  I'm going to talk to you as well.
• 17:13
  Yeah, and I'm just wondering what could happen.
• 17:15
  And then the front of the last game, the six nations.
• 17:18
  That could be a big one for them as well.
• 17:20
  I just think we'll find out.
• 17:21
  We didn't find anything out of it England of the weekend.
• 17:23
  Like what we thought of it England before the Welsh game.
• 17:25
  You kind of shrug your shoulders.
• 17:26
  It was a captain's practice for England effectively.
• 17:29
  Wheels didn't turn up.
• 17:30
  They just went through three, four phases.
• 17:32
  The game was summed up a little bit.
• 17:33
  When I think there was a crooked throw with the line out.
• 17:36
  No, sorry.
• 17:37
  Someone hooked someone's arm.
• 17:38
  Maybe anyway, there was an infringement of the line out against England.
• 17:41
  And Jimmy George, you heard him in the captain's on the ref's mic.
• 17:44
  He said, no problem.
• 17:46
  As if like, okay, don't worry.
• 17:48
  But we will have the ball back very soon.
• 17:50
  We'll look at the ball by no problem.
• 17:52
  And we'll smash the scrum.
• 17:53
  And we'll be able to pick up where we left.
• 17:55
  I left off in a couple of minutes here.
• 17:56
  And I just summed up the difference between the two teams.
• 17:59
  So we didn't find out anything about England.
• 18:01
  They're still under the radar a little bit.
• 18:03
  I think they might get tested this weekend.
• 18:05
  But they'll definitely get tested in the front.
• 18:07
  I think Scotland and Ireland will taste them as well.
• 18:10
  I think Ireland will push him really hard.
• 18:13
  So I just think I still think things, the fringes in a different class.
• 18:18
  I think Scotland and Ireland will tasting that.
• 18:22
  I hope so, Victor.
• 18:24
  I hope so.
• 18:25
  But maybe just demonstrates the difference in mindset.
• 18:28
  And Irish will be at the minute.
• 18:30
  I hope we go to Twickenham.
• 18:31
  I give them a go.
• 18:32
  But it feels more like hope than,
• 18:34
  it feels more like hope than kind of expectation to be on it.
• 18:37
  It's Irish rugby.
• 18:38
  Lost its leaf.
• 18:39
  Trumpy is Irish rugby.
• 18:41
  It's not leaf.
• 18:42
  A little bit.
• 18:44
  A little bit.
• 18:45
  A little bit.
• 18:46
  It feels like it.
• 18:47
  I suppose we didn't go on.
• 18:49
  We certainly didn't go to Paris thinking, right, we're going to give them.
• 18:52
  We went over there thinking, who knows?
• 18:54
  And now we're going into the Italy game thinking, look at the way it leered.
• 18:58
  Playing in the conditions in Rome last weekend against Scotland.
• 19:03
  They played some decent, decent rugby.
• 19:05
  More rugby then would be kind of pragmatic or advisable to play in that.
• 19:09
  And we saw Louie Liner jumping up, catching the ball with two hands.
• 19:12
  We saw men and cello racing down the way.
• 19:16
  It was all their big names.
• 19:17
  All their big players winning collisions, doing what they do best.
• 19:19
  Our line speed was a good defense, really good.
• 19:21
  Set peace.
• 19:22
  Ireland is going to be tested at the scrum as well.
• 19:25
  I don't even think we're thinking about it to a game yet.
• 19:27
  We're actually worried about Italy coming to time next weekend to get things back on track for Ireland.
• 19:32
  JKU, former Italian coach, tell me about what you saw at the Italians.
• 19:36
  I just said they're incredibly well drilled.
• 19:39
  I've been saying it for a couple of years.
• 19:41
  I think the coaching staff are doing an amazing job.
• 19:45
  And Italy also used to have a DNA, which was big scrum.
• 19:52
  You know, wife of Castiglidrovani, L'Occicciro, Anguro.
• 19:56
  You know, but they're playing a really nice mix of rugby, what Trubi said.
• 20:01
  And it seems that they're working a lot on their individual skill.
• 20:05
  You know, Italy in the past, you might have seen them make a nice break.
• 20:08
  And then someone would just make a really basic handling here.
• 20:11
  But I think the coaching staff's doing a great job.
• 20:13
  I think it's a really good style of rugby that suits them.
• 20:17
  And you don't want to underestimate them.
• 20:19
  You know, I think the surprising thing for me was that Scotland's seen to not be able to put 80 minutes together.
• 20:24
  Because they're pretty good for sort of tween.
• 20:26
  And then they sort of went off the boil.
• 20:28
  But, you know, this Italian side does not go away.
• 20:31
  So I'm really proud of them.
• 20:32
  I think coached incredibly well on playing and pretty well.
• 20:35
  And they do have for the first time in the backs, like you talked about, you know,
• 20:39
  Minicciro and Liner.
• 20:41
  And, you know, those guys are some of the best players out there at the moment,
• 20:46
  which is important in the Six Nations.
• 20:49
  They'll take their opportunities.
• 20:51
  I think you mentioned, Trimby, about the Welsh.
• 20:54
  You know, Jake and I are a little bit older than you guys.
• 20:57
  And so we were brought up on the great Welsh players,
• 20:59
  of Barry John Gareth Edwards, you know,
• 21:01
  the most inspirational, as we were growing up, Jake.
• 21:04
  Okay, that's fair.
• 21:05
  You know, some of that fill Bennett.
• 21:07
  There's a real sadness from rugby people.
• 21:11
  About where Welsh rugby is at the moment,
• 21:13
  because it's had such a big part of developing our game.
• 21:17
  And is there a way out for them?
• 21:20
  I'm convinced that certain countries,
• 21:24
  the franchise model doesn't work.
• 21:26
  And I will put New Zealand in that now.
• 21:30
  Now that the South Africans have deserted us and left,
• 21:34
  I think that we need to get back to tribalism and traditionalism.
• 21:38
  And I think that Wales have made a mistake
• 21:42
  by going to franchise model.
• 21:44
  I think the Welsh people in the bellies care,
• 21:47
  they go, they sing,
• 21:49
  and I don't know if you can ever get it back,
• 21:51
  but I think it was a mistake going to those franchise models
• 21:54
  or not recognising early enough.
• 21:57
  You know, they probably need five sides
• 22:00
  that should join the English competition,
• 22:02
  because they need weekend, week out.
• 22:04
  They need the young guys to be playing against top opposition.
• 22:07
  So, you know, you think about the franchise system.
• 22:10
  And this is a question I've got for you, Trimby.
• 22:12
  You know, are there too many foreigners now
• 22:14
  if you only have three provinces?
• 22:17
  You know, you've got as many South Africans in New Zealanders
• 22:20
  and Irelanders as anywhere else.
• 22:23
  And I think it's the same with Wales.
• 22:25
  You think about, you know, three franchise going down to two.
• 22:27
  How many foreigners are you going to have?
• 22:29
  You know, if you've got five foreigners per side,
• 22:31
  that only gives you 10, 20 Welsh people playing per week.
• 22:35
  You know, in South Africa, you've got, you know,
• 22:37
  you've got your, all your provinces, all your, you know,
• 22:39
  you've still got the old system underneath.
• 22:41
  We've still got the NPC system underneath our super rugby.
• 22:44
  So, at least our pathway is good, but Wales, what do they do?
• 22:48
  So, they're in real trouble and it's, you know,
• 22:51
  it's a management problem.
• 22:53
  They need to get some great leadership there
• 22:55
  and really sort out what's going on.
• 22:57
  But it's competition and performance.
• 22:59
  They took out the first thing Wales did,
• 23:01
  because I asked them last November,
• 23:02
  I asked them to Welsh guys the trust.
• 23:04
  And they took out the high performance as a cost category thing.
• 23:08
  You know, you can't take out your high performance,
• 23:11
  trying to make money, because then you run out of rugby players.
• 23:15
  So, the, the, the tribal thing,
• 23:18
  JK is an interesting point.
• 23:19
  The, the franchise model height doesn't work in,
• 23:21
  maybe smaller countries where there's more kind of,
• 23:23
  more like a visceral nature and emotional nature to,
• 23:26
  to that, to that rivalry between, you know, Irish provinces
• 23:30
  or Welsh regions, for example.
• 23:32
  Yeah, you want, like, there's probably a ceiling
• 23:34
  to where that goes, like commercially,
• 23:36
  but then once you go into that different model
• 23:38
  and it does, does feel like that.
• 23:40
  And there'd be, even some Irish voices would be out there saying,
• 23:43
  well, yeah, you want a kind of central model.
• 23:45
  They want everything to be centralized and efficient.
• 23:47
  Yeah, centralized kind of third parties and,
• 23:51
  and tech and data and all this sort of stuff.
• 23:54
  And, and processes and coaching philosophies and all that.
• 23:58
  But, but then you do, you lose that as a result.
• 24:00
  So, it, it maybe makes the, the pathways more efficient,
• 24:03
  kind of getting towards international,
• 24:05
  but it, you lose a little bit of,
• 24:06
  this is what makes monster monster,
• 24:08
  makes Ulster Ulster.
• 24:09
  I mean, you've got,
• 24:10
  um,
• 24:12
  um,
• 24:13
  um,
• 24:14
  um,
• 24:15
  um,
• 24:16
  um,
• 24:17
  um,
• 24:18
  um,
• 24:19
  um,
• 24:20
  um,
• 24:21
  um,
• 24:22
  um,
• 24:23
  um,
• 24:24
  um,
• 24:25
  um,
• 24:26
  um,
• 24:27
  um,
• 24:28
  um,
• 24:29
  um,
• 24:30
  um,
• 24:31
  um,
• 24:32
  um,
• 24:33
  um,
• 24:34
  um,
• 24:35
  um,
• 24:36
  um,
• 24:37
  um,
• 24:38
  um,
• 24:39
  um,
• 24:40
  um,
• 24:41
  um,
• 24:42
  um,
• 24:43
  um,
• 24:44
  um,
• 24:45
  um,
• 24:46
  um,
• 24:47
  um,
• 24:48
  um,
• 24:49
  um,
• 24:50
  um,
• 24:51
  um,
• 24:52
  um,
• 24:53
  um,
• 24:54
  um,
• 24:55
  and maybe that is the case in Wales as well. Victor, tell me about it, the South African view,
• 24:59
  you know, I mean, you've still got the sharks playing the stormers. Does it still mean what it did?
• 25:05
  Yeah, it does. I mean, whenever the South African teams play each other, it's all got stadiums,
• 25:12
  but I'm on JK on this one. I think for us, yes, we only have our five teams playing in the URC
• 25:19
  and then Europe. But underneath it, we still got our old curry cup. And the curry cup
• 25:25
  is like the MPC. It means a lot to the peoples, South Africa, to the real fans. And I mean,
• 25:31
  we had Greek Quas beating the Lions in the final. Yes, all the top players don't play there, but
• 25:38
  just the amount of players that get opportunity at the highest level at the early stage now. And
• 25:43
  we also allow most of our top players to play overseas. So there's even more players coming through
• 25:49
  and getting opportunities at a younger age. So for me, whenever I see I've seen it in Australia,
• 25:56
  Wales, wherever they go and they make the teams less, and there's not enough players to select from,
• 26:03
  then I don't know how can you get stronger. You want as many players as possible to get
• 26:08
  opportunity. Yes, I know financially, maybe sometimes it doesn't make sense and there's not
• 26:15
  enough money to support that. But if you want to grow your game, you need more players playing at
• 26:20
  our level, I believe. What scares me is you've all had a summer break. And after all the nonsense
• 26:26
  you spoke last year, you're all coming back with a bit of intelligence and well thought out comment.
• 26:30
  So I think we should probably end the show there because, you know, we don't want to spoil our run.
• 26:35
  So yeah. So let's enjoy around the six nations and we'll see you all back next week.
• 26:43
  Good luck. Cheers.