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Transcript

Rugby Direct - Episode 195 · Rugby Direct

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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
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Speaker 1: Inside the Game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct with
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Speaker 1: Elliot Smith and Liam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.
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Speaker 3: Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty
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Speaker 3: five years in business. Elliott Smith with me Liam Napier,
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Speaker 3: back for one last time in season twenty twenty five. Liam,
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Speaker 3: good to catch up. As always, It's been a couple
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Speaker 3: of weeks since we got behind the podcast microphones. We
0:58
Speaker 3: had the all Black Speeding Wales and we took some
1:00
Speaker 3: time to wrist and recover and here we are back
1:03
Speaker 3: for one last time. As I said, anything you want
1:06
Speaker 3: to touch on from the Welsh performance before we get
1:08
Speaker 3: into the podcast itself.
1:09
Speaker 2: One last rides. Oh look, it was great to be
1:12
Speaker 2: backing Sunny Cardiff had a great week there. The match
1:19
Speaker 2: itself probably went as expected, didn't it. The team that
1:23
Speaker 2: was rolled out a lot of opportunities handed. I think
1:27
Speaker 2: it probably summed up the year in some ways. While
1:30
Speaker 2: I was scoring the second most points in history against
1:33
Speaker 2: the All Blacks, the All Black's running up a bit
1:35
Speaker 2: of a score. I don't know if there was too
1:38
Speaker 2: much you could take out of it for the context
1:40
Speaker 2: of the season.
1:41
Speaker 4: It was.
1:43
Speaker 2: A pretty somber week, a bit of an edgy week
1:47
Speaker 2: from a media perspective with the All Blacks and the
1:51
Speaker 2: recriminations I guess had sort of started post Twickenham, so
1:54
Speaker 2: I'm sure get stuck into a bit of that.
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Speaker 3: Well list did that now before we get to the
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Speaker 3: World Cup draw and the All Blacks finishing the year
2:01
Speaker 3: with a ten W three loss record. There's been a
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Speaker 3: lot of articles written in the last couple of weeks
2:08
Speaker 3: about where to next for this All Blacks team. Do
2:11
Speaker 3: they need to change the coaching lineup, do they need
2:14
Speaker 3: to make drastic changes? Where do you sit at this
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Speaker 3: point in time, because I think there has to be
2:19
Speaker 3: some form of change. I think you'd struggle to make
2:23
Speaker 3: compelling arguments that they're contracted to win that series the
2:27
Speaker 3: greatest rivalry next year. I think you'd struggle to go
2:31
Speaker 3: that there'd be able to progress past the Rugby World
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Speaker 3: Cup quarter final, which we'll get to, as I said
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Speaker 3: in a few moments time. So have there been enough
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Speaker 3: improvements from this All Blacks team, and do you think
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Speaker 3: there needs to be some change as we move towards
2:43
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six.
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Speaker 2: Well, let's unpack. I guess year two and that record.
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Speaker 2: They're ten and three. It's probably knots as good as
2:53
Speaker 2: it sounds to a degree. I don't want to be
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Speaker 2: totally negative, so we'll talk some positives. But July France
3:00
Speaker 2: in our very sick and string team, the All Blacks
3:02
Speaker 2: ands and rugby had nothing to do with that. You
3:04
Speaker 2: can only play who's in front of you. But there's
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Speaker 2: three victories straight off the bat. The All Blacks had
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Speaker 2: some challenges there as well, so look in the context
3:13
Speaker 2: of the year. The notable wins were the spring Box
3:16
Speaker 2: at Eden Park, and it's easy to forget the cacophony
3:19
Speaker 2: of criticism and the intense backdrop around that following the
3:23
Speaker 2: first loss in Argentina. So that was a big tick,
3:26
Speaker 2: a big win for Scott Robinson at the time back's
3:29
Speaker 2: massively pressed to the wall. The victory over Ireland in
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Speaker 2: Chicago the other probably notable one. And then the three
3:37
Speaker 2: losses stand out, don't they not just for the defeats
3:41
Speaker 2: but the nature of them and when I look over
3:44
Speaker 2: the course of the All Black Sea, I think I
3:47
Speaker 2: can't see a case for progress. I think depth has
3:51
Speaker 2: been grown in some areas in most areas, and Robinson
3:55
Speaker 2: has progressed his four four four plan. But when you
4:00
Speaker 2: look at that England performance that's the ultimate match of
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Speaker 2: the year. Yes, the All Blacks are missing some big
4:06
Speaker 2: outs from an injury perspective would have made a difference.
4:10
Speaker 2: But I just I can't shake the sense of stagnation
4:14
Speaker 2: and even coming home from the tour and speaking to
4:17
Speaker 2: people around the team involved the team. I also think
4:22
Speaker 2: about two assistant coaches from that group leaving voluntarily with
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Speaker 2: no with no job to go to. I've heard growing
4:33
Speaker 2: murmurs of unhappiness from the playing group senior players that
4:40
Speaker 2: the nots satisfied with communication, trust strategy. So I do.
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Speaker 2: I have come to the conclusion that I do feel
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Speaker 2: like there are major changes needed, either with the way
4:54
Speaker 2: that coaching teams run or personnel. With Jason Holland leaving,
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Speaker 2: I think they will look to bring in a high
5:03
Speaker 2: ball kicking specialist. For me, that just that that there's
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Speaker 2: not going to be an enough to really push and
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Speaker 2: transform the team and make the changes that are needed.
5:14
Speaker 3: I think you're right. We've talked a bit about this
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Speaker 3: on the podcast, around the division of labor when Jason
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Speaker 3: Holland first left, and whether he was assigned enough to do,
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Speaker 3: whether he felt like he had enough to do, whether
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Speaker 3: some of the other coaches were taking on too much responsibility.
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Speaker 3: And I don't think they've got that right. And you know, naturally,
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Speaker 3: when you have a losing record, and they don't have
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Speaker 3: a losing record, but they've lost some big games, that's
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Speaker 3: when it comes under script and you can run the
5:39
Speaker 3: team however you like when you're winning and everything's fantastic,
5:43
Speaker 3: but when you're not winning the games that you're expected to,
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Speaker 3: that's when you come under some forms of criticism. And
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Speaker 3: I think that's only natural from an All Blacks perspective.
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Speaker 3: And I don't think, as you say, adding a kicking
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Speaker 3: coach is going to be enough to reshape the team,
5:57
Speaker 3: because what we've seen in the last two years doesn't
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Speaker 3: give you the confidence that they are on the right
6:02
Speaker 3: track and they're a moment away from discovering all the answers.
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Speaker 3: They've built some depth, and they've done well to do
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Speaker 3: that because they haven't had a lot of games against
6:10
Speaker 3: tear two opposition that naturally you'd find players give an opportunity,
6:14
Speaker 3: so they've had to learn on the run. But I
6:17
Speaker 3: also feel as well that they haven't advanced the game plan.
6:20
Speaker 3: I look at the All Blacks and go, do we
6:22
Speaker 3: know the way that the All Blacks want to play?
6:24
Speaker 3: Do we know the ideal scenarigo that if they're playing
6:27
Speaker 3: their best rugby, this is the shape that the All
6:29
Speaker 3: Blacks want to play in. I think we've got half
6:31
Speaker 3: an idea. We've seen them use the props as first
6:34
Speaker 3: receivers with those soft hands out the back. But to me,
6:37
Speaker 3: it feels like the game plan has the players basically
6:42
Speaker 3: from standing starts or little motion, whereas Scotland and England
6:46
Speaker 3: attack them with players in motion bodies, you know, flying
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Speaker 3: through the line, putting the defense under pressure. So I
6:52
Speaker 3: don't see the All Blacks having the kind of game
6:54
Speaker 3: plan that goes that's All Blacks rugby. That's the way
6:57
Speaker 3: they want to plan that on its day is going
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Speaker 3: to be good to win, you know, eighty to ninety
7:01
Speaker 3: percent of test matches. I just don't see it at
7:03
Speaker 3: the moment. So for me, you look at who's controlling
7:05
Speaker 3: the game plan and a lot of that's around Scott Hansen,
7:09
Speaker 3: who drives a lot of the game plan and there's
7:12
Speaker 3: been articles written from New Zealand hero around you know
7:14
Speaker 3: how much say he has in the game as well.
7:19
Speaker 3: I think potentially you need to look at the game
7:21
Speaker 3: plan and go is that the right game plan, who's
7:23
Speaker 3: delivering it? And make some tweaks there. I think they
7:27
Speaker 3: desperately need some work on, you know, fixing the structure
7:33
Speaker 3: of the team, whether it goes back to attacking coach
7:37
Speaker 3: or a backs coach Jason Ryan. There is a Fords coach.
7:40
Speaker 3: You've got your head coach in Scott Robertson, and divide
7:42
Speaker 3: the laborer up a little more evenly. I just don't
7:45
Speaker 3: think that that coaching set up is the right one.
7:47
Speaker 3: And I've never been a high performance coach and never
7:49
Speaker 3: been a high performance athlete. But from the outside looking in,
7:52
Speaker 3: I don't think they've got the structure right as it stands.
7:54
Speaker 2: No, I agree, Look, there were positives of the All
7:58
Speaker 2: Blacks game. The line out was largely a success this year.
8:02
Speaker 2: I think Brent Evens inclusion in the coaching team is
8:05
Speaker 2: a big tick, particularly when Scott Barrett's Patrick two plot
8:11
Speaker 2: and to provide miss large chunks of the season. You know,
8:14
Speaker 2: you had Josh Lord's and Fabian Holland come in and
8:19
Speaker 2: big responsibility on young shoulders, so the line out worked well.
8:23
Speaker 2: I think also from a progression and depth perspective, Fabian
8:27
Speaker 2: Holland's Peter Luckeye, Pasilio Tossi or three standouts all in
8:32
Speaker 2: the forward pack. But the attack is a massive issue,
8:37
Speaker 2: a consistent issue, and New Zealand should be just given
8:42
Speaker 2: the mindsets, the approach to the game ball in hands
8:48
Speaker 2: USA ball. You know, I don't particularly like the word
8:51
Speaker 2: DNA necessarily, but that's how all blacks New Zealand ragby
8:57
Speaker 2: players men and women love to play the game and
9:01
Speaker 2: they're not harnessing the tools at their exposure. Their attack
9:05
Speaker 2: has started all year and so that's a major red flag,
9:08
Speaker 2: and it's a major read flag because Liam McDonald was
9:12
Speaker 2: the attack coach and he left because he wasn't happy
9:16
Speaker 2: Jason Hollands. I don't know this definitively, but I've had
9:20
Speaker 2: a number of people say he left because he was
9:23
Speaker 2: effectively marginalized and didn't have a great say in the attack.
9:27
Speaker 2: So that adds to that portfolio issue. And then you've
9:31
Speaker 2: got recurring themes the third quarter fades, so what's happening
9:34
Speaker 2: at halftime? Why can't you solve those issues? The high
9:37
Speaker 2: ball was another one. I think even the scrum platform,
9:42
Speaker 2: the propping stocks are great and there's real depth there,
9:47
Speaker 2: but against England and South Africa we're a bit wobbly.
9:50
Speaker 2: So major improvements across the board, particularly when you look
9:53
Speaker 2: ahead to next year seventeen game program four against the
9:57
Speaker 2: World Champions, three of those in South Africa. That's pretty
10:00
Speaker 2: daunting right now, I think. And that's the lens with
10:04
Speaker 2: which should be viewed. Now, what about this review we've got.
10:08
Speaker 2: Mike Anthony is going to be leading it. I'm not
10:10
Speaker 2: too sure who else is involved. He's been the head
10:14
Speaker 2: of High Performance or the equivalent for a long time.
10:19
Speaker 2: He has quite a long existing relationship with Scott Robertson,
10:24
Speaker 2: so maybe you'd like a bit more independence involved in
10:27
Speaker 2: that review. Mike Anthony was toured with the All Blacks
10:31
Speaker 2: on the Grand Slam Tour, so he was getting consistent
10:34
Speaker 2: feedback throughout. How do you expect the review to run
10:38
Speaker 2: and would you have major concerns if the player feedback
10:44
Speaker 2: is as of sort of conveyed it.
10:49
Speaker 3: Well we know back in twenty twenty one in Ian
10:52
Speaker 3: Foster's ere there was some sharp feedback given around the
10:54
Speaker 3: coaching they were getting. And the message that was given
10:59
Speaker 3: at the time by some of them was that they
11:01
Speaker 3: were getting better coaching at the Super Rugby franchise and
11:03
Speaker 3: they were getting an all backs camp. But I mean
11:04
Speaker 3: that around some of the detail coaching when you get
11:06
Speaker 3: down to the nitty gritty, not so much the head coaching.
11:08
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of respect obviously for Ian Foster
11:11
Speaker 3: in that playing group, but it was targeted towards the
11:14
Speaker 3: assistant coaches. They stayed with the assistant coaches and then
11:17
Speaker 3: a few months later had to get rid of them
11:19
Speaker 3: and say cyanara to Brad More and John Plumtree. So
11:25
Speaker 3: this is a review. They do it at the end
11:27
Speaker 3: of every season, so it's not new necessarily, but because
11:30
Speaker 3: of the nature and where the All Blacks find themselves,
11:32
Speaker 3: it takes on extra importance. And you hope it is honest,
11:36
Speaker 3: You hope it's robust. You hope that everything's put out
11:38
Speaker 3: on the table because you'd hate to get to another
11:41
Speaker 3: year down and go, boy, I wish you made some changes,
11:44
Speaker 3: significant changes at the start of twenty twenty six, rather
11:47
Speaker 3: than trying to scramble in a start of a World
11:49
Speaker 3: Cup year. So you hope it's robust and that everything's
11:52
Speaker 3: on the table around the structure of the coaches, whether
11:55
Speaker 3: the players you know, need to put a few you know,
11:57
Speaker 3: their hands up and say we're not delivering the game
11:59
Speaker 3: plan or you know we're not across the details that
12:02
Speaker 3: we should be around that, so you know the coach
12:04
Speaker 3: is coming for a lot of stick. But there's also
12:06
Speaker 3: you know, perhaps some players that need to some accountability
12:10
Speaker 3: on the board. I guess whether it'll be a direct
12:12
Speaker 3: result from a review is remains to be seen. Whether
12:16
Speaker 3: we hear any of the details publicly remains to be seen.
12:19
Speaker 3: Sometimes some of those details leak out. But you just
12:23
Speaker 3: hope it's open and honest, and if there are recommendations
12:26
Speaker 3: for changes, that they're implemented. Because you don't want to
12:29
Speaker 3: waste a good crisis. That's what a lot of business
12:32
Speaker 3: leaders say. This isn't a crisis necessarily, but again you
12:35
Speaker 3: don't want to be looking back and going, geez, they've
12:37
Speaker 3: gone and lost four nil to South Africa. What are
12:40
Speaker 3: we going to do a year out from a Rugby
12:42
Speaker 3: World Cup so make any changes that need to be
12:44
Speaker 3: made now and get them in place for me. I think,
12:47
Speaker 3: you know, I'd like to see a more clearly defined
12:49
Speaker 3: coaching structure in the team. You know, I don't you know,
12:52
Speaker 3: Scott Robs is not going to go, but I do
12:54
Speaker 3: wonder whether they need to have a specialist attack coach
12:57
Speaker 3: and take some of that responsibility away from Scott Hansen.
13:01
Speaker 3: Maybe he gets basically moved into it an assistant coaching
13:04
Speaker 3: role or you know, similar role. I'm not sure, but
13:08
Speaker 3: I don't know who's out there. You know, we've spit
13:11
Speaker 3: board a few names over dinner and various things in
13:15
Speaker 3: Cardiff as to who might be around. But I'd like
13:16
Speaker 3: to see a traditional attack coach come into the structure
13:19
Speaker 3: that can drive that. And you know, Kendrick Lynn out
13:22
Speaker 3: of Argentina is the name. I'm not sure how long
13:24
Speaker 3: he's contracted for. Tyler Blindell was at Leinster. I knows
13:27
Speaker 3: he's highly regarded as well. You just don't know how
13:32
Speaker 3: long people are contracted, what causes they've gotten their contracts.
13:34
Speaker 3: But as I say, to circle back to your original question,
13:38
Speaker 3: make sure you just don't waste what's in front of
13:40
Speaker 3: you here and make sure you're making the right decisions
13:42
Speaker 3: for this All Blacks team.
13:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very good point, isn't it. Learn from
13:46
Speaker 2: history and be open to feedback and change because people
13:52
Speaker 2: can be very resistant to change. But I think from
13:56
Speaker 2: my perspective, it's very evident that something's not right and
13:59
Speaker 2: something is not working within the All Black team, and
14:02
Speaker 2: a ten to three record is far from terminal. But
14:05
Speaker 2: you drill down into that, you look at the the
14:09
Speaker 2: French series and the consistent issues, the lack of progress
14:14
Speaker 2: and the player feedback. I think something needs to change.
14:18
Speaker 2: Look when you talk about the alternatives, I guess even
14:23
Speaker 2: Jamie Joseph has been talked about as an alternative at
14:26
Speaker 2: this point without Tony Brown not hugely compelling. I would
14:31
Speaker 2: love to see a guy like Joe Schmitt added, but
14:35
Speaker 2: that's not going to happen. He was alienated during Robertson's
14:38
Speaker 2: appointment process with the m Foster still at the Helm
14:41
Speaker 2: while Schmidt was assistant, which is a great shame to
14:46
Speaker 2: push away such a great rugby mind who is finishing
14:50
Speaker 2: with the Wallabies soon. Wayne Smith has been involved, but
14:55
Speaker 2: on a very limited basis. I think he was involved
14:58
Speaker 2: with the Springboks test at Eden Park and the Wallabies
15:01
Speaker 2: test in Wellington, so very much at arm's length, and
15:05
Speaker 2: I think he's at a stage in life and career
15:08
Speaker 2: where he wouldn't want to be involved more consistently, So
15:13
Speaker 2: there's not a pathora of options out there there. There's
15:18
Speaker 2: Andrew Goodman up in Irelands who's quite highly regarded while
15:21
Speaker 2: and aren't going particularly well at the moment either. I
15:26
Speaker 2: guess there's a few people in Japan as well, Dave
15:28
Speaker 2: Rennie and co. But I think at this point New
15:33
Speaker 2: zeal Rugby is typically a very conservative organization, aren't they,
15:36
Speaker 2: and so I think they'll probably be given a stay
15:40
Speaker 2: of execution maybe the South African tour. They might be
15:43
Speaker 2: given some expectations around results. For me, that's waiting a
15:48
Speaker 2: bit long watch the.
15:50
Speaker 3: Space on that front. Russia Rausmus incidentally handed in a
15:54
Speaker 3: four year extension, so he's now contracted for the next
15:57
Speaker 3: six years through to twenty thirty.
15:58
Speaker 2: One, which is signver going to retire right REMARKA.
16:00
Speaker 3: Well, I think he's just going to be the Springbok
16:01
Speaker 3: coaching perpetuity until basically he goes out of there in
16:05
Speaker 3: a coffin. And why not because he is clearly the
16:07
Speaker 3: best coaching game at the moment in the men's game,
16:10
Speaker 3: and would you change absolutely through to twenty thirty one,
16:12
Speaker 3: which is a daunting prospect for every other team in
16:15
Speaker 3: the world.
16:15
Speaker 2: Does There's a bit of chat that his delay in
16:18
Speaker 2: resigning was linked to his assistants. Do we expect Tony
16:21
Speaker 2: Brown and co. There's been a bit of talk about
16:24
Speaker 2: Jacques Nebina coming back from Leinster as well. How do
16:29
Speaker 2: you see all that?
16:29
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it was interesting. I looked at the media
16:30
Speaker 3: release and they said, announcements are of the assistant coaches
16:33
Speaker 3: we made in due course. You know, for for a
16:38
Speaker 3: head coach, maybe it's a bit easier to sign on
16:39
Speaker 3: for twenty thirty one. Assistant coaches might not be as
16:42
Speaker 3: keen to sign on for six years. Some of them
16:44
Speaker 3: will have aspirations to be head coaches, I am sure
16:47
Speaker 3: elsewhere or head back to family or Jerry Flannery's in
16:49
Speaker 3: there whether he wants to know, back to Eirel or
16:51
Speaker 3: whatever it might be. So watch this space, I guess
16:54
Speaker 3: on that front. But twenty thirty one, let's talk about
16:57
Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven and the Ruggy Will Cup drawer has
17:01
Speaker 3: been made and we know the all Blacks have the
17:03
Speaker 3: Wallabies in Paul play maybe the opening game, maybe not.
17:07
Speaker 3: I've heard mixed things and I I Peyton last week
17:09
Speaker 3: sudused to that it might end up being at the
17:11
Speaker 3: MCG in week two or three, so it might not
17:14
Speaker 3: be the blockbuster opener that many are expecting.
17:17
Speaker 2: That would sort of make sense because your opening game
17:19
Speaker 2: sells out regardless, hope.
17:20
Speaker 3: So even if it's Wallaby is sort of Chili or
17:22
Speaker 3: Hong Kong.
17:23
Speaker 2: I think if people want to be involved, it's an.
17:25
Speaker 3: Occasion, they'll have the opening cerameter beforehand and those sort
17:28
Speaker 3: of things. But as it stands, look if they all
17:31
Speaker 3: Blacks are good enough to beat the Wallabies and therefore
17:33
Speaker 3: and also beat Hong Kong and Chile, and then so
17:37
Speaker 3: that forgot to help us. Well, look, you know there's
17:40
Speaker 3: a lot of water to go on the bridge that exapply.
17:41
Speaker 2: Is they could be some blood bus Yeah.
17:45
Speaker 3: Unfortunately and afteria match that then they're on a collision
17:49
Speaker 3: course for a quarter final.
17:53
Speaker 4: This what do you like?
17:54
Speaker 3: What do you make of? I guess that the way
17:56
Speaker 3: that this has gone about.
17:57
Speaker 2: Ah, that's absurd. Yeah, How does World rugby take something
18:01
Speaker 2: that could be so simple and make it so frustrating tennis. Basically,
18:10
Speaker 2: most other sports seed their teams. Why have world rankings
18:14
Speaker 2: that if they are going to be irrelevant for your
18:16
Speaker 2: global showpiece? Yeah, look, the rankings could change between now
18:20
Speaker 2: and the World Cup as it stands, and I don't
18:23
Speaker 2: actually agree with the rankings at the moment. I think
18:25
Speaker 2: the All Black should be a but lower. They lost
18:27
Speaker 2: to England to a ranked third. As it stands, the
18:29
Speaker 2: Blacks two, South Africa one, and they are highly likely
18:32
Speaker 2: to meet in this quarterfinal. That should not happen for
18:36
Speaker 2: your global showpiece. The two best teams, one of them
18:38
Speaker 2: going home. And we had a lot of that four
18:41
Speaker 2: years ago or by the time this Nick's World Cup
18:44
Speaker 2: rolls around. How do you not just just seed the
18:48
Speaker 2: top four teams and have them in opposing quarterfinals provided
18:51
Speaker 2: they win their pools.
18:52
Speaker 3: It's not that hard, No, it's this was the moment
18:55
Speaker 3: that wild rugby firmly lost the plot, I have to say,
18:59
Speaker 3: and going to twenty four teams, they don't have the
19:02
Speaker 3: depth to go to twenty four teams. I'm sorry. This
19:05
Speaker 3: is not a global game that rugby believes it is,
19:08
Speaker 3: world rugby believes it is.
19:09
Speaker 2: Is it just a cash grape more games.
19:11
Speaker 3: Probably, Yeah, it's more games for the broadcasters around the globe.
19:16
Speaker 3: There's more knockout games, so in theory there's more jeopardy
19:19
Speaker 3: in there. But you do not have the quality to
19:21
Speaker 3: go to twenty four teams. I'm sorry. You can talk
19:23
Speaker 3: about growing the game and maybe this is them just
19:25
Speaker 3: throwing a bone.
19:26
Speaker 2: It's complete lips of this because what do they do
19:28
Speaker 2: outside of World Cups for those teams totally? If anything,
19:31
Speaker 2: it's getting worse with the Nation's championship and so.
19:33
Speaker 3: What they've done here is make a mockery of the
19:36
Speaker 3: World Cup. They've at it in a round of sixteen,
19:40
Speaker 3: and you know you're gonna have a you know, the
19:42
Speaker 3: current World Cup in terms of the twenty teams, your
19:44
Speaker 3: farewell twelve teams when you went into the knockout stage.
19:47
Speaker 3: Now you've got a round of sixteen. There's only eight
19:49
Speaker 3: teams that go home before that round of sixteen, so
19:52
Speaker 3: there's very little on the pool stage. The All Blacks
19:55
Speaker 3: already know that Warby's not every team therefore knows it.
19:58
Speaker 3: You know the path, you know, so far out from
20:02
Speaker 3: a World Cup, and you're right, there should be some
20:05
Speaker 3: protection there for that mythical top six that they talked about.
20:09
Speaker 3: You know you want to protection, Well, it's not about
20:11
Speaker 3: just the all blacks space in the spring box. It's
20:13
Speaker 3: about the quality of the competition and making sure that
20:16
Speaker 3: you have the best games deeper into the tournament. So
20:20
Speaker 3: I firmly believe this is a shamboic tournaments structure from
20:26
Speaker 3: World Rugby. For me, look, if you want to have
20:28
Speaker 3: a round of sixteen, I would reced after the pool
20:31
Speaker 3: stage and go, this was the best performing pool team,
20:35
Speaker 3: one points different whatever it is they won. So let's
20:39
Speaker 3: say South Africa, you know, put some points on they
20:41
Speaker 3: are seated one. The lowest team to qualify. Sixteenth one
20:45
Speaker 3: play sixteen. You have eight games, you put them all
20:48
Speaker 3: in one venue over the course of a weekend, you know,
20:52
Speaker 3: four games, three games a day, whatever is over four
20:54
Speaker 3: days and it's all in Perth. It's all in Melbourne.
20:56
Speaker 3: So teams know where they're going to be, so it's
20:58
Speaker 3: not like they're having to factor that and necessarily. But
21:02
Speaker 3: I think this is just an absolute shocker from World rugby.
21:06
Speaker 3: And you know you talk luck of the draw, well,
21:09
Speaker 3: very much is for some times and very much is
21:11
Speaker 3: for some others.
21:12
Speaker 2: That's right. I think it is Look, well, I'm going
21:16
Speaker 2: to shoot down the tym for a hat brigade here
21:18
Speaker 2: that say it's a big conspiracy and World Rugby one
21:21
Speaker 2: on Northern Hemisphere winner. That's not true at all. This
21:24
Speaker 2: is completely random. There is a lot of luck in it.
21:28
Speaker 2: But the only benefit to this style of World Cup,
21:30
Speaker 2: as I think, it's despite having more teams, it's a
21:32
Speaker 2: bit shorter. So that's the only benefits. I think the
21:37
Speaker 2: team should be seeded and it does like your suggestion,
21:43
Speaker 2: puts a lot more on the on the pool stages
21:45
Speaker 2: because you have a scenario where even Italy could rest
21:51
Speaker 2: their top team playing the spring box to make ensure
21:54
Speaker 2: they win the other two pool matches. It's going to
21:58
Speaker 2: be a pretty painful pool stage. The other point is
22:04
Speaker 2: FIFA did their draw six months out from their tournaments.
22:09
Speaker 2: World Rugby do it two years? One is bigger than
22:12
Speaker 2: the other two. Why, Like you've shortened it by a
22:16
Speaker 2: year because of all the massive criticism you copped for
22:21
Speaker 2: the last tournament in France. Doing it three years out
22:23
Speaker 2: two years isn't much better. If football can do it,
22:27
Speaker 2: why can't rugby?
22:28
Speaker 3: Yeah? I don't get that in the slightest I know
22:31
Speaker 3: you know the Basically the chatter is that you know,
22:32
Speaker 3: all the English fans and stuff go spin their pounds
22:35
Speaker 3: and booking for travel packages and.
22:36
Speaker 2: Things, and the teams want to know logistics.
22:38
Speaker 3: But well, I'm sure teams want to know logistics and
22:41
Speaker 3: they are able to provide that by going this pool
22:43
Speaker 3: is going to play in this spot. This pool is
22:45
Speaker 3: going to plan this spot and you can do that
22:47
Speaker 3: with rugby as well. So look, I yeah this, and
22:51
Speaker 3: look I don't think it's wreched, but there's something weird
22:54
Speaker 3: about the All Blacks in Australia being in one pool,
22:57
Speaker 3: England being in the same pool as Wales, Ireland Scotland.
23:01
Speaker 3: I'm not sure where the TV rights have been sold
23:03
Speaker 3: for the UK and Ireland as yet.
23:07
Speaker 2: But as worked out well, isn't it. And that's the
23:10
Speaker 2: other point that we need to make is this tournament
23:13
Speaker 2: is absolutely set up for England. Yeah, and I think
23:17
Speaker 2: it's lucky the draw, but it is absolute luck. So
23:20
Speaker 2: as it stands, if they win their pool, they avoid
23:24
Speaker 2: the All Blacks, South Africa and France until the semi finals.
23:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
23:30
Speaker 2: Just for the record, if you had as seated the
23:32
Speaker 2: pools seeded, Yeah, the top teams in the pools a
23:36
Speaker 2: likely quarterfinals South Africa, Fiji, Scotland, Ireland, France or Japan, England,
23:43
Speaker 2: Argentina or Wales, New Zealand, Australia and Italy, which to
23:48
Speaker 2: me seems much more logical.
23:51
Speaker 3: Totally. I mean, I just don't see why they've gone
23:53
Speaker 3: from twenty teams at all. To be honest, I think
23:56
Speaker 3: wild rugby pays lip service to growing the game. This
23:59
Speaker 3: is one easy box so they can go, oh, we
24:01
Speaker 3: can say we're growing the game. They also you know,
24:03
Speaker 3: blood referees from emerging nations and go oh with you know,
24:07
Speaker 3: you know, but from Georgia and Andrea Piatia are coming in.
24:11
Speaker 3: That's growing the game there. It's absolute rubbish and all
24:14
Speaker 3: you're doing is hamstringing your event for the sake of
24:17
Speaker 3: pretending that you're growing the game. So I think world
24:20
Speaker 3: rugby has had an absolute shocker.
24:22
Speaker 4: This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
24:29
Speaker 4: Every try try and sixty sick, every tackle, put.
24:32
Speaker 3: Tack, the tackles get up again before time.
24:37
Speaker 2: It's Rugby Direct.
24:39
Speaker 3: Talk the game in New Zealand as a whole as
24:43
Speaker 3: we head into twenty twenty six and a little bit
24:45
Speaker 3: of state of flux. We've got a chief executive that
24:47
Speaker 3: has yet to be appointed. There was a lot of
24:49
Speaker 3: suggestions they wanted to see you are appointed by Christmas
24:51
Speaker 3: while we're recording this in the eighth of December, running
24:54
Speaker 3: out of a little bit of time. They've got a
24:56
Speaker 3: little bit of time still to make that appointment or
24:58
Speaker 3: announce that appointment. But I think a bit of state
25:01
Speaker 3: of flux just with where things are out. They'll be
25:03
Speaker 3: happy they've got the TV deal signed away with Sky,
25:07
Speaker 3: but there are some chain, you know, things in the
25:09
Speaker 3: in the world game that are coming, and obviously a
25:11
Speaker 3: new CEO that needs to come in and a couple
25:14
Speaker 3: of other appointments as well.
25:15
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, massive appointments in terms of where the game
25:19
Speaker 2: in New Zealand goes, how it's run. I think there's
25:23
Speaker 2: three executive appointments basically, and you need to start with
25:26
Speaker 2: the CEO first and foremost. It's been widely reported that
25:32
Speaker 2: Tom Harrison that the Six Nations CEO is the front
25:35
Speaker 2: runner for that. Who's the cricket David David White. David
25:40
Speaker 2: White is another one, so I heard last time they
25:43
Speaker 2: were down to the final three. Sean Marx is definitely
25:46
Speaker 2: not one and that was.
25:48
Speaker 3: A reporter over the weekend that Sean Marx wasn't was
25:51
Speaker 3: in the mix. So your understanding is that he's not
25:53
Speaker 3: not true.
25:54
Speaker 2: I made some inquiries along those lines a couple of
25:57
Speaker 2: weeks ago and it was while we're in the UK. Yeah, yeah,
26:00
Speaker 2: didn't come to anything and so it won't be sure.
26:03
Speaker 2: Marks could be Tom Harrison massive appointment in terms of
26:09
Speaker 2: taking charge and look, yeah, New Zealand rugby isn't a
26:14
Speaker 2: bit of a state of flux. There's so many realms
26:17
Speaker 2: to it. I think you look at it's not a
26:21
Speaker 2: total picture, but even the Ossie schools and New Zealand's
26:27
Speaker 2: I need to get around the right way under eighteens
26:31
Speaker 2: on schools. Those results this year sparked a bit of
26:34
Speaker 2: alarm about TELL and identification and developments. I know there's
26:40
Speaker 2: a bit of work keeping there in the in the
26:42
Speaker 2: around the super rugby teams and getting that competition off
26:45
Speaker 2: the grounds. You've got issues around the women's game as well.
26:51
Speaker 2: I was speaking to someone over the past couple of days.
26:53
Speaker 2: Over the weekends there's big clashes with Fara, Palmer Cup
26:59
Speaker 2: and Club Rugby and Alpacky and a lot of provincial
27:03
Speaker 2: union's unhappy with how that's playing out.
27:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, they hadn't mind saying is they don't have a
27:07
Speaker 3: lot of say and because they've got the change of
27:11
Speaker 3: the global calendar for the women's game has shunted a
27:14
Speaker 3: few things around the place, but it's going to hurt
27:16
Speaker 3: Club Rugby absolutely.
27:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think something like seventy eight of players
27:22
Speaker 2: and the Fara Palmer Cup come from schools, the teenagers basically,
27:25
Speaker 2: so big big challenges there. And the All Blacks you know,
27:30
Speaker 2: they're the money making beast that runs the game. And
27:36
Speaker 2: I hate the word aura, but the fear factor with
27:42
Speaker 2: the All Blacks has gone. And if a bit of
27:45
Speaker 2: that mystique, a bit of that nostalgia you know, that's
27:48
Speaker 2: marketed and sold around the world. If they don't start
27:52
Speaker 2: consistently winning, that can have a big material impact.
27:58
Speaker 3: There's still enough brands to that want to be connected
28:00
Speaker 3: with New ze ond rugby.
28:01
Speaker 2: And I think that the demise of rugby is a
28:03
Speaker 2: bit overblown. There's there's massive interest in the game and
28:07
Speaker 2: you can see that when things don't go well mostly,
28:11
Speaker 2: but there's always challenges around teenage boys and retention of them.
28:16
Speaker 2: So yeah, some big ticket items to sort out in
28:19
Speaker 2: the coming years. But I think from a revenue perspective,
28:22
Speaker 2: they've done really well to cover some big absences, haven't they.
28:27
Speaker 2: With some big name sponsors exiting this year.
28:30
Speaker 3: They have, and you're right, they sell this on the
28:32
Speaker 3: legacy of the All Blacks and you know winning. That's
28:36
Speaker 3: the mantra they have, and that's how they go to
28:39
Speaker 3: brands overseas and go, this is what you want, we
28:41
Speaker 3: want you to be part of, and this is the
28:43
Speaker 3: check that we would like, thank you very much. And
28:45
Speaker 3: when you start to chip away that it's inevitable that,
28:48
Speaker 3: you know, people will drive down the amount of money
28:52
Speaker 3: they're willing to pay to part part money with to
28:55
Speaker 3: sponsor teams. And I think that's only natural. So when
28:57
Speaker 3: it's the show piece, you've got to put up and
29:00
Speaker 3: get the results or else the money starts to drift away.
29:03
Speaker 1: I know.
29:04
Speaker 3: Hearing from Mark Robinson and his excellency with Jason Pine
29:07
Speaker 3: over the weekend, he talk about how much commercial revenue
29:09
Speaker 3: is now driven outside of New Zealand versus when he
29:12
Speaker 3: started the job. You know, it was made up a
29:15
Speaker 3: lot more of the percentage. Now it's probably more overseas
29:17
Speaker 3: than in New Zealand. But that can only last when
29:20
Speaker 3: you've got a record like the All Blacks and they
29:23
Speaker 3: need to protect that at all costs. And you'd say
29:26
Speaker 3: at the moment that South Africa is leading the way
29:28
Speaker 3: in terms of winning on the field the innovations that
29:32
Speaker 3: they're bringing to rugby as well, in New Zealand's lacking
29:35
Speaker 3: a bit behind. So there are some things that need
29:37
Speaker 3: to be chipped out a way come twenty twenty six. Yeah.
29:40
Speaker 2: Super Pacific is the other one I think from a
29:42
Speaker 2: product point of view, that has come on massively in
29:46
Speaker 2: recent years and that's prominenttly been driven by the way
29:51
Speaker 2: the game is officiated, letting the game flow, minimizing TMO
29:56
Speaker 2: influence and stoppages, creating a really captivating on field domestic products.
30:04
Speaker 2: But that challenge, that competition has massive challenges as well
30:08
Speaker 2: with I don't know that any team in New Zealand's
30:11
Speaker 2: turning a profit. I know the Crusaders won the title
30:14
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure they didn't even make a profit,
30:16
Speaker 2: and that's partly due to the stadium. The Hurricanes and
30:19
Speaker 2: are in a massive state of flux. I've found an
30:21
Speaker 2: investor who will a bit of a White Knights, who
30:24
Speaker 2: will sort of bail them out, but big financial challenges
30:28
Speaker 2: around Mine and PACIFICA. Essentially the longevity of that competition
30:34
Speaker 2: ensuring it can survive because on the field, I think
30:37
Speaker 2: it is delivering, even though there's still questions about if
30:41
Speaker 2: it's best preparing New Zealand Australian athletes, in particular for
30:46
Speaker 2: the test scene. When you look at the way the
30:48
Speaker 2: game's played an international ragba at the.
30:50
Speaker 3: Moment this year super Aby was the best in years
30:52
Speaker 3: and it started strongly and a couple of weekends when
30:56
Speaker 3: there wasn't Derby's it did dip a little but came
30:58
Speaker 3: up towards the end. There was some compelling playoff games.
31:01
Speaker 3: The Blues upsetting the Chiefs, Blues pushing the Crusaders all
31:03
Speaker 3: the way are very very absorbing final In the end,
31:08
Speaker 3: I don't know that it's the product that's going to
31:12
Speaker 3: remain over the coming years. There's still, you know, eleven teams.
31:15
Speaker 3: There's been no solution to a twelfth or further expansion
31:19
Speaker 3: on that front. Desperately need the Australian teams to dure
31:23
Speaker 3: say a winner title at some point in the next
31:25
Speaker 3: couple of years, to just create that little bit of
31:28
Speaker 3: tension in terms of not only playing but also the
31:32
Speaker 3: viewing tension rivalry is exactly right. So yeah, I think
31:37
Speaker 3: it's gonna be interesting to see where it goes over
31:38
Speaker 3: the next few while. I know Australia's obviously committed, but
31:42
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone's particularly happy in club rugby land,
31:45
Speaker 3: maybe apart from the top fourteen at the moment. In
31:48
Speaker 3: France and maybe in Japan as well. You've got the
31:51
Speaker 3: Welsh that are cutting teams fought out to probably three,
31:55
Speaker 3: and there's been a bit of talk about an Anglo
31:57
Speaker 3: Welsh league. Maybe the Welsh can go join the Premiership
32:00
Speaker 3: the URC. It doesn't big travel issues, big travel issues,
32:05
Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be enjoyed by the South Africa teams,
32:09
Speaker 3: doesn't seem to be enjoyed by the teams that are
32:10
Speaker 3: in it from you know, Ireland and Wales and Italy,
32:13
Speaker 3: et cetera. So I don't think anywhere in world rugby
32:17
Speaker 3: club Landers as perfect at the moment. We did have
32:19
Speaker 3: one message from or tweet that Ruck and Puck tweeted us,
32:23
Speaker 3: which I've held for this podcast question for you guys.
32:26
Speaker 3: He says, what's holding New Zealand rugy back from a
32:28
Speaker 3: complete overhaul of Super Rugby. We'd love to see a
32:30
Speaker 3: more US style Super Rugby comp and not sure how feasible.
32:33
Speaker 3: Would require Insider to relinquish control and each team to
32:36
Speaker 3: find private investment, need to increase excitement in Insian rugby. Again,
32:40
Speaker 3: it's from Ruck and.
32:41
Speaker 2: Puck, so it taught me through our US I suppose
32:45
Speaker 2: maybe a draft or a lest games.
32:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, potentially less games, but less control from insid art basically,
32:54
Speaker 3: and maybe team says he's a private investment, can go
32:57
Speaker 3: out and go this is our checkbook. We're willing to
32:59
Speaker 3: pay it. Maybe there's no starter cap, maybe there is,
33:02
Speaker 3: but you're approaching from a US league model. Maybe you
33:04
Speaker 3: have trades mid season, maybe a drive interest that way.
33:09
Speaker 3: And answer to your first question, I think it is
33:10
Speaker 3: some way off having a league like that. I just
33:14
Speaker 3: don't see it being something that can be implemented. You know,
33:18
Speaker 3: cross Tasman. There are issues you know around players, you
33:23
Speaker 3: know being you know, let's say trading is something they
33:25
Speaker 3: want to bring in or draft, which was Hamish mclenan's
33:28
Speaker 3: big point around a draft. Well, you know, young seventeen
33:31
Speaker 3: year old hot shot first five from Wellington, how much
33:35
Speaker 3: is he going to want to move to the Force
33:36
Speaker 3: just because I've got the number one draft back in
33:38
Speaker 3: Super Rugby, he might just go, bugger, I'm going to
33:41
Speaker 3: go to rugby league. You don't have that in NBA, NFL,
33:45
Speaker 3: NBA players are going to go. Actually, I don't want
33:46
Speaker 3: to go to Miami, for example, I'm just going to
33:50
Speaker 3: go switch to another code. It just doesn't happen. So
33:53
Speaker 3: there are some inherence restrictions that operate around that. But
33:58
Speaker 3: I think you know, Super Rugby could and are trying
34:01
Speaker 3: to do more. I know that for a fact, around
34:03
Speaker 3: various things. But it's a softly softly approach. Yeah, I
34:06
Speaker 3: think they're just of it is highly unlikely, but I
34:09
Speaker 3: can see where you're coming from in terms of why
34:13
Speaker 3: it would drive interest. And the draft is not a
34:16
Speaker 3: new debate.
34:16
Speaker 2: We've talked about it previously, even in a sense of okay,
34:21
Speaker 2: so you can protect twenty five players, but the rest
34:25
Speaker 2: of the playpool is up for grabs. Even something like
34:27
Speaker 2: that would create interests. Yeah, I think Sue Bergey probably
34:33
Speaker 2: also needs to get better at selling itself. Telling it
34:36
Speaker 2: stories outside of the season is a wee bit more
34:40
Speaker 2: of that. I think more in the PACIFICA are probably
34:43
Speaker 2: the shining light in terms of how they're delivering content
34:49
Speaker 2: socially reaching younger fans, So more of that helps. That's
34:54
Speaker 2: partly why the Warriors have exploded an interest because of
34:58
Speaker 2: the way they're doing things in that space. The US
35:03
Speaker 2: style comp works well and season trades, drafts, all those
35:10
Speaker 2: sorts of things captivate fans. Fantasy rugby, fantasy sport, whatever
35:15
Speaker 2: it is, anything, it can't just be about the on
35:17
Speaker 2: field product. You need to do more to drive interest
35:20
Speaker 2: in the game. So it's very valid points. But New
35:27
Speaker 2: Zealand Rugby is highly unlikely to relinkish that control, as
35:30
Speaker 2: Rack and Puck said, because they like to control the
35:33
Speaker 2: minutes of the All Blacks, they like to track players,
35:37
Speaker 2: they like to have a degree of oversight, right, and
35:42
Speaker 2: at this stage they're also paying the players wages they are.
35:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll leave you with that thought. As we get
35:47
Speaker 3: into the break, what do you make the Super Rugby
35:49
Speaker 3: juice this finally.
35:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Canes are epic. Yeah, so it's a good sign. Well, yeah,
35:55
Speaker 2: that's the other point I was going to make about
35:56
Speaker 2: Super Rugby. The problem, one of the problems right now
36:00
Speaker 2: is for all the on field advance is still highly predictable,
36:04
Speaker 2: like it's highly likely it's going to be a Hurricane's
36:09
Speaker 2: Chiefs final that.
36:11
Speaker 3: Would we say highly likely? Would we say highly likely?
36:14
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
36:16
Speaker 3: Who Hurricanes probably win that because the Chiefs can't win
36:18
Speaker 3: a final to save themselves.
36:20
Speaker 2: But certainly you're not going to predict a nausea in
36:22
Speaker 2: the final right now, or the Highlanders getting there. You
36:25
Speaker 2: know that they might improve, but it's still too predictable.
36:30
Speaker 2: And that's where a draft and these sort of mechanisms
36:32
Speaker 2: come into shake up things and create more interests, create
36:36
Speaker 2: a more even playing field. I think that is really needed.
36:39
Speaker 3: To just one more point. Actually, I like Super Rugby,
36:44
Speaker 3: I really do, but I wonder whether not that its
36:47
Speaker 3: moment might have passed, but whether it's what rugby fans want.
36:50
Speaker 3: I genuinely question that in this part of the world.
36:52
Speaker 3: Do rugby fans want Super Rugby?
36:54
Speaker 2: Do they?
36:55
Speaker 3: We look at the NRL and and you know that's
36:57
Speaker 3: the natural comparison, but do fans want to see the
37:01
Speaker 3: Blues warritors in New Zealand? I genuinely don't know that
37:04
Speaker 3: there's actually an interest level in Australian rugby to justify
37:09
Speaker 3: and keep taking over that I think we might have
37:13
Speaker 3: got to the point where we've basically waited for all
37:16
Speaker 3: these Australian sides to show up for fifteen years and
37:18
Speaker 3: they haven't essentially since the wartar Is in twenty fourteen,
37:22
Speaker 3: and even what the odd.
37:24
Speaker 2: Exception exception here, but Brumby has been pretty competib But
37:27
Speaker 2: you can't just do that off one.
37:28
Speaker 3: And I wonder whether the rugby you know, the casual
37:32
Speaker 3: rugby fan that isn't always locked and has gone this
37:35
Speaker 3: comp is just never going to create the jeopardy that
37:41
Speaker 3: I need from it. Regittunity NRL and you know, it's
37:46
Speaker 3: a bit of a lottery, and I don't know that's
37:47
Speaker 3: always actually a good thing. You kind of need heroes
37:49
Speaker 3: and villains and ups and downs and teams, but any
37:52
Speaker 3: team can kind of beat anyone. And I just wonder
37:54
Speaker 3: whether we're ever going to get that from its Australian
37:57
Speaker 3: teams ever. Again, Yeah, it's a very fair question.
38:00
Speaker 2: I think one point to make is is probably a
38:02
Speaker 2: big disparity between because we're told quite consistently in the
38:07
Speaker 2: past eighteen months that viewership figures are really good, but
38:11
Speaker 2: in steady of support is really poor, particularly for the
38:15
Speaker 2: Australian team, so nobody can solve that riddle. And the
38:22
Speaker 2: other point is I think the NRAL are going to
38:25
Speaker 2: kill the Golden Goose by bringing in all these teams
38:26
Speaker 2: because they're going to have whipping boys for a number
38:28
Speaker 2: of years. So that's the that's their issue, but I
38:32
Speaker 2: can see that playing out. Super Rugby has been through that.
38:35
Speaker 2: But it's a very fair question. And there's always that
38:38
Speaker 2: nostalgia around Dutch Super Rugby go back to the NPC,
38:44
Speaker 2: and that's not just our parents generation or our generation.
38:50
Speaker 2: It's about connection and meaning and rivalries and yeah, just
38:59
Speaker 2: it means something more and Super Rugby's probably lost a
39:02
Speaker 2: bit of that and desperately trying to get it back.
39:05
Speaker 3: We'll see twenty twenty six, I'm sure another big year
39:08
Speaker 3: for us on Rugby Direct. Forward to your company. Then
39:12
Speaker 3: our thanks to Larst and Bars English for producing this
39:14
Speaker 3: podcast all the way through the year. Of course, my
39:16
Speaker 3: thanks to you Liam for another big year on Rugby Direct.
39:19
Speaker 3: So looking forward to twenty twenty.
39:20
Speaker 2: Six, you too, mate. I enjoy your holidays, so Santa's
39:24
Speaker 2: good to you and you raise a glass over new year.
39:27
Speaker 3: Luckwise, likewise, been another fun year on rugby Direct. We
39:29
Speaker 3: look forward to twenty twenty six and now thanks to
39:32
Speaker 3: Excess Solutions as well, who are celebrating twenty five years
39:35
Speaker 3: in business.
39:40
Speaker 1: For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
39:42
Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
39:45
Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio