Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #397 Cont: John Paul II's insights into Culture and How The Body Is Portrayed In Art and the Media

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#397 Cont: John Paul II's insights into Culture and How The Body Is Portrayed In Art and the Media · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Become who you Are.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Podcast production of the John Paul 2 Renewal Center.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: I'm Jack Rick of your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for joining me today.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: St Catherine of Siena said that if you become who you are, that you would literally set the world on fire.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: And St Athanasius, an early church father and the doctor of the church, said the son of God became man so that we might become God.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: You know I make a wild guess at this, but I bet you, most of us, are a bit disconnected from this divine life that these saints are pointing us to.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Yet St John Paul II said there's an echo of this story, of this divine life that we're created for, inscribed in each human heart, in your human heart, and if you put on a proper lens, if I put on a proper lens, we can get in touch with this echo within us in such a way that we have that aha moment.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: See, that's the genus of St John Paul II Stegology, the body.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: It connects our lived experience of life to the gospel in such a way that our life takes on a whole new meaning and helps us answer those big questions that our whole culture is so confused about today.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Who am I?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: What's my purpose?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Why were we created male and female?
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: How do I find happiness here on earth?
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: How do I find love that satisfies forever?
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Hey, glad you're with me.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: I'll be right back for today's episode, linda, I just got done saying hello to you and to your husband, who I haven't seen for a while, and things are going pretty well.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: It looks like you're settling down in Pennsylvania.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Good to see you.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Good to see you, jack, we are, we're getting there.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, you said my room's almost ready, so let me know, when I'll come visit right.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Today we are on episode number 61, where we're continuing what John Paul calls the ethos of the body in art and media.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: We're reflecting, with reference to Christ's words in the Sermon of the Mount, on the problem of the ethos of the body and works of art, where Jesus is really talking about in Matthew 5, how we look at the body, how we look at one another, and he also points us back to the beginning.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: This is what he does so constantly, by pointing us back to the beginning, that we're created in the image of God, the Imago Dei.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: I think at this point and, linda, I like to get your thoughts on this, I mean, we're out speaking to people all the time.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I think that our culture here in the United States has almost become to the point where they won't be able to see the beginning anymore.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: They really won't be able to understand it.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: You know this pornographic culture that we're in, where these young people are being inundated by so many currents of pornography in different ways and being used in abuse, from television, from social media, from schools, from the government pushing this.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: It's amazing.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: You know even the transgenderism and etc.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Etc.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Everything's being pushed down and twisted and distorted.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Everything's trying to normalize not only the fall of sin, but it's also trying to groom and desensitize the human being, these young people, so that they can't see the beginning anymore.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: And what is that beginning?
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: That beginning in the Amago Dei, where the two, a man and a woman, become one in marital union, open to life.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: It actually expresses the inner love of the Trinity.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: But I'll tell you, when I'm speaking to young people today, it really takes a little while to get that message back to them the beauty of our sexuality versus the using.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: But I'll say this once they get it, it's huge.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: When the light bulb goes off with some of the young people that we speak to, it's amazing what happens.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: They feel touched very, very deeply in their hearts.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: So anyway, as we unpack this, this is an important episode.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, Jack, I think in listening to you, being made in the image of God.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: If I don't think there is a God, then being made in the image of God becomes meaningless to me.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: It doesn't, you know, it doesn't.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: So what is it that we're talking about here?
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: And so that push, you can almost see the deviousness of the evil one, for so many decades back with beginning this path of taking God, taking prayer out of schools, you know, trying to get God removed further and further from us so that at the point where so many people are really confused and perhaps now do believe that there is no God, then all chaos happens.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Right, and that's how it's like, you know, that frog in the water once again.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: But you know, we've been, all of us, in a sense, have been groomed to begin to believe that there is no God, you know, being made in his image then becomes meaningless.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: And so then, what have we got?
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: And that's why I think it's so difficult for so many to relate back to the beginning, because it just seems like some fairy tale to them.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: I remember even my first time when I was coming into theology, the body, trying to get over that idea that the human body, naked human body and all its truth of masculinity and femininity, john Paul would say, john Paul said, has the meaning of a gift of the person to another person.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: And you see this again.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: You know that our sexuality has actually been created to be a sign, the primordial sacrament, a sign of trinitarian love.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: And this is very difficult for modern man, meaning men and women, to grasp to your point, because God's not a sexual being.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: And so when we think about, you know, sex and sexuality, we think, you know, we've been stigmatized, almost our hearts, that we could say well, how could that be sacred, how could that be?
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Looking at God, how could?
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Looking at my wife and my wife looking at me and entering into this union and communion, even our body, which is our body, is created to express love.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: We're embodied spirits, we're actually expressing love.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: That's what we're created to do.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: And people can't, you know it's hard for them to think of our sexuality as an expression of the sacred, but that's exactly where we go.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: I always, you know, come back to this, this, this statement that John Paul said to men at the men's conference.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: You know, but, men, before you make love to your wife, take your shoes off, because you're entering unto holy ground.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: And what a beautiful image that is of giving yourself totally to another person.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: And I just finished with this thought.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: You know, if you want to see that in action, this is my body given for you.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: You look no further than Jesus Christ hanging on on the cross.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: And that really is that sacramental sign of one person being a total gift to another, pouring everything out, every, every ounce of blood and life out to be a gift to another person, and that person reciprocates this.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: And that's really what we're saying in a sign when the two become one, open to life, become, you know, open to life can become three.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: And what a beautiful, powerful thing.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Right, that can you imagine making?
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know, has anybody been able to make love like this?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know this is like in the beginning, before sin, making love with the total lights on right, no shame to entering into the milieu of God's grace, giving that to one another flowing in.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: that I mean, you know, I don't think you know, I think I was already too damaged and my poor wife and I were too damaged to ever, you know, really entering into a union like that right.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: I mean I look back now I go, I wish I would have known this and just Try to enter into the power and the beauty of this love making like this right, make it almost, almost without a shame, right with, with one another.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, which Original innocence back from the beginning.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: What you described, jack, is really the whole vision of God's plan for us, when, when we look at what theology of the body is about, it's it's looking into that.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: What is God's plan for us?
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: And we're kind of at the the pinnacle of it here and in our discussion with the naked human body.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: I too, you know, when I first started learning theology, the body Really struggled with a lot of it.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: You know, I grew up in a home where Five girls and one boy but you know, there was no discussion on anything even vaguely Related remotely to any sexuality or sex or anything.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: It just it just wasn't there, you know.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: So I had had to figure it all out on my own, and that natural that, that Naked without shame idea, was probably one of the biggest Girdles for me, because it was a concept I couldn't relate to.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Shame was just a big part of all of it for me.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: And yet, when you drill through even further, that image of God is the source of our dignity.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: And so Remember how, when we talked about shame, that there was the positive side and the negative side.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: You know, we should feel shame for actions that are wrong and we shouldn't do, and that's that's negative feeling.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: But the positive side is that it's also a clue for us that there's something worthwhile here in the area of sexuality, something even sacred here, and so that Shame is appropriate to feel in certain circumstances.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, I wish I'd known some of that.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: You know it would change everything.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: And you know again that shame, that shame in the, in a good, in a good light, and and shame meaning to protect ourselves.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: In other words, if I'm looking at a woman and there I have no shame, I become shameless.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: And this is really what grooming and desensitizing of young people is all about so that they become shameless, so that they can actually look at another person and not feel in their heart this, this Concupacence, this fall, and they can easily use one another.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: When I speak to young people, it's amazing how many girls in high school have have got into sexting Men.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: So, in other words, taking their part or all their clothes, are part of their clothes off and Sending these pictures via text to their boyfriends who are asking for this.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: And you see both sides of this and the shameless, shameless, shamelessness, right, shamelessness, where a girl actually will take a picture of herself, send it via social media, via a phone, to a boy that's asking for this and Objectivizing one another and, and so that's what we turn to now when we're talking, talking to art and media, this, this objective Objectification of the human body and it's male and female, female nakedness, and this is what John Paul is talking about.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Once we, an artist, and or even yourself, you start to portray your own body.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Look, look, how far we've fallen, where I will actually portray my own body in public.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: You know this active intimacy that a man and a woman should have for each other.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: The shame I should feel.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: That would protect me from doing that in a good way, right, and If I can just interrupt here, that shame is the recognition of my dignity.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: So you see, when there's the shamelessness, when the girls are willing to take those pictures, it's an indication that they've lost that sense of their dignity.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: And I have felt that for a long time with the modern fashions and the way girls dress, I know that there are many girls that don't understand that, especially in the summertime, the way they dress, they could be a change of themselves dressing that way and that there is no sense of that.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: So you see, kind of drills back to that loss of the sense of dignity and who we are.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: And so that whole Miliu that we should be living in, understanding of that deep meaning of gift of our bodies that would impact everything we do, the way we dress and the way we interact and all those things has been lost.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: And that's where the Pope is telling us here that if we take pictures and behaviors outside of that milieu, that's where the objectification of the person begins and some real dangers of course, with that.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you think about this interpersonal gift that John Paul speaks about here and this way to communicate.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: And we're communicating through the body and the body and its truth of being free, total, faithful and fruitful love and offering that as a total gift to one another.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: This is the love between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that this profound love that goes out and creates and actually created us.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: As a visible sign of that, when John Paul said it's a very delicate problem when you try, an artist and or media takes that interpersonal gift and wants to portray that out in public, and so how do they do this?
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: John Paul said that it's not that you should never do that, but you have to be very cognizant of how you do that and how do you portray that.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: I remember when we were kids that when a love scene would come, you would see this man and a woman kiss passionately and you'd see that, and then they would go off into a room or whatever, and so they had this intimacy, they had this time, and then they'd come out.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: You'd see that the movie would come out for breakfast the next day and you'd see them kiss each other or caress each other something you know that some intimacy took place there and you assumed it all and you knew what happened.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: But they didn't allow you to see this like a pornographic movie and where you're actually invited into their bedroom.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: And you're invited to see that.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Because all of a sudden now how do I react to that?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: How am I reacting to that?
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Do I see them giving one another as a gift?
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, if they know they're being portrayed on film, how do they react to this?
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: We've really overstepped the bounds there, and I remember John Paul II, when he became Pope, took all of the loincloths off of the nudes in the Sistine Chapel.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: He had them all redone Over the years.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: They had put loincloths on because they said we shouldn't see the naked body, and John Paul said no, that's not true.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: The problem's not with the naked body, the problem is how we look at the naked body.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: And he said that the Sistine Chapel should be the theology of the body, to see the body portrayed in its beauty by an artist like Michelangelo.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: And yet you can twist and distort that and the last thought I'll have and throw this back your wayland is that the devil doesn't have his own clay.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: He's not the creator.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: All he could do is take and twist and distort that sign, that beauty of our sexuality, and distort it into use.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Do the opposite.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: God creates this to be this total gift, this vowsal gift, this inner communication that you would only have between one other person in the world, right?
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: And yet Satan can twist and distort that so that that body goes out into the public and millions of people see that and use it for their own lust.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is we're really trampling on the sacred here.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: That's right, jeff.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: I didn't ask you ahead of time, but perhaps it'll allow me to read one paragraph that appeared in our study guides with the theology of the body and on this particular topic, mikhail Volstein, who did the translation of the text in correspondence to Christopher West, wrote some very interesting comments he had.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: It's just a short paragraph, you think.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I can read this it's directly with what we're talking about.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: If anybody wants to look it up, where did it come from?
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Well, it's in our study guide from Theology of the Body, the immersion course.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: So those who, have taken that course and have their spiral knowledge, they would be able to find it, but it's in this section, on number 61.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: And this is what he has to say.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Some images of the naked body push us to concupiscence, Others do not.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: John Paul II explicitly mentions Greek art as an example of the latter.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: So anyway, familiar with some Greek art nudes the thinker, I believe, is one, and there's a sculpture called the kiss that are very interesting.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: But, he says, going to the Sistine Chapel and looking at the naked women on the ceiling is, for this reason, a very different experience than watching a pornographic movie.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: It is not presumption but the experience of many men that one can look with purity at Michelangelo's nudes and take delight in their beauty.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Michelangelo himself must have looked at his naked models in a pure way in order to be able to paint nudes in that pure way.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: It would most likely be presumption to think one can watch a pornographic movie with the same purity of heart.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: The push toward concupiscence in a pornographic movie is objectively contrary to the dignity of the person, regardless of how well one has mastered one's desires.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: That push is a sufficient reason to stop watching, even if one does not feel oneself sliding into a concupiscent way of looking.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Of course, if one does feel a slide into concupiscence when looking at Michelangelo's nudes.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: It's a good idea to look away.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: That need to look away should also be a trumpet blast for recognizing that one is not living in a cord with the redemption of the body, that one is in need of serious transformation.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Now he pulled together all of these ideas.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: I believe in this one paragraph and maybe we can unpack it a little bit.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead and start.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: What is the first thing you'd like to unpack there?
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: The first point that I underlined here is that it's been the experience of many that one can look with purity at Michelangelo's nudes and take delight in their beauty.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Now, what's important is the receiver.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Now, how am I looking at that?
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: What does it bring out in me?
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: And as we always talk about that battle in the heart between lust and love, am I seeing this with that purity of heart or not?
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: And he concludes at the end I need to be aware of that because it's very meaningful.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: So he also says that Michelangelo must have looked at the models that way.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Now, I think in modern thinking, many people would just say, oh, that's not possible, it simply isn't possible to do.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: You see, so for me it's like yes, it is possible, and the Pope is trying to tell us that it is possible.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: But one has to understand what is the own ethos in your heart?
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: How are you looking at whether or not it's even possible?
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And that certainly would be a goal for all of us, I think, if we're really trying to, as we talked earlier, live in the spirit, you see, this is all a part of that living in that atmosphere, that milieu of the gift.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: So that was the first point that I pulled out of that.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, and, and you can see now, when you twist and distort that, how difficult it is and how many people can get wounded when you do, when, when you, when they can no longer see.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: I think it takes two people took Michelangelo, actually, more than that, probably Michelangelo to paint it, but also whoever there was the model there to have trust in the way he was looking at at her or him, and, and, and now it takes it another person to walk in the Sistine Chapel and be able to see also the beauty of that Right and so, at all levels today, this is the.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: This is how Tragic today is at all levels, these poor young people, including ourselves.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: You know this has been going on since the sexual revolutions started.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: We in you and I, grew up in that and and everybody we know, except for the oldest people among us, also did, and so we've been getting bombarded with all of these different At all these, these different currents.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: You know, it's, it's amazing, you know, and when I talked to people, I was reading a, something from Matt Frad, who was he was a Catholic speaker now, but he was addicted to pornography when he was young.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Just by accident, when he was eight years old, he stumbled into pornography, he got into an addiction.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: And then you see what happens, how, linda, how this distorts the person.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: In other words, this isn't just a victimless thing.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: It not only is the victim the person that we're viewing, but, and the one that's being used, say, in a pornographic film but the person that's viewing it is also a victim.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Matt writes this, he goes.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: This is always the case with addiction, and neuroscientists are now explaining in scientific language what those of us who have been addicted to anything else already knew.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: The addictive state leaves us in constant craving for a neurochemical cocktail endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, etc.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: That, with compulsive use, effectively resets the pleasure thermostat of our brain.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: The result is that alcoholics need more booze, drug addicts need bigger hits and porn users need ever more intense kinds of sexual Stimulation just to feel normal.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: We know now from those that study the brain that the neural pathways in your brain actually change and the way pleasure is experienced and the way we look at one another.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: So, and these images Will never go away, in a sense, these images that are burnt into the brain.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: It's amazing how difficult it is to overcome Pornography addiction, especially if you've been at it for a while right, and Volstein points it out in this paragraph that While we could look at Michelangelo's nudes with the purity of heart, it's nearly impossible to do so with a pornographic movie.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: So this to me, is someone who's saying well, you know, I'm not like that, it's not going to affect me that way, and I think many people maybe think that in the beginning it are in a sense fooling themselves, because it's it's nearly impossible.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: And the reason, jack, I think is connected to what the Pope Brought out, is that let's consider the intention of the artist.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: You know what was the intention here that Michelangelo had in his paintings?
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: His intention was to help all of us see the beauty of the human body, and and John Paul too knew that and that's why he Was stressing it.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: But there's no intention like that in In pornography.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: In fact, the intention obviously is just the opposite, you know that to bring out the lustful heart, and so that's a key point that we need to consider.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: And and I wanted to stay on that for a second because when you think about this, sometimes this idea of theology, the body, or our Catholic view is, is old, it's considered old-fashioned and there's nothing old-fashioned about it.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: When you know I, you know it's really the only stance that really values our sexuality and puts when you value a person's sexuality, you, you value the person and when you devalue their sexuality, you devalue the person.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: So what they're really saying when they're coming out with a derogatory term, your old fashioned or prudish, they're saying, no, we can't objectify another person, we can use this for our own pleasure, and that, as long as we're consenting adults, I use you and you use me and at the end of the day, we're both in that relationship grasping and taking.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And you think about the dysfunction that enters a person's heart and then into their life and they're being used, constantly going from person to person or living in a relationship that's just survives on eggshells because they've never become a gift to one another, they've never known that depth of love in their hearts.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And so you know there's so much dysfunction when you get into these relationships.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: And, again, you know, when we start to think about this, you think well, that's, there's nothing.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not hurting anybody, nobody's hurting me, we're.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: We're both in this relationship together, but the reality is, we are being hurt, aren't we?
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: And and we're hurting one another.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Right and key to that is do I really see the other person?
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Do I see person when I look at that body?
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: And the example you gave of a young girl sending their boyfriend's pictures they're not seeing their girlfriend as a person when they're doing that.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's this body.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: And so, while the young girl may be deceived, thinking oh, he loves me and this is like the next step in our relationship or something, it's totally the opposite of that, and so this concept of person and personal relationship again is a core element that we need to constantly go back to.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know there, bishop Paul Laverde.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: He was the Bishop.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: He's retired now.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: He was the Bishop of Arlington, virginia, and he wrote bought with a price, back in 2014,.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: It was on pornography and he talked about the current threat, one of the things that he talked about, and it's very well done actually and he said the gravity of this sin and he's talking about pornography and and really this pornographic whole culture that we're in.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: The gravity of this sin becomes clear when one considers the tremendous damage the use of pornography causes to society.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: It damages first of all the family, the basic cell of society, and the church, because it tears at the marital bond, since it immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: This comes right out of the catechism, number 2354.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: A man's use of pornography turns his attention and affection away from his wife.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: It creates in his mind unrealistic and often immoral expectations for their intimate life and begins to approach her only as a means of his own gratification and no longer as a suitable partner.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Priests and counselors know very well how grave a threat pornography poses to marriages and how many families have already suffered sad division due to its effects.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And so this gets back again to Satan doesn't have his own clay.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: If there's an enemy out there that wants to destroy humanity, he's going to come right after that sign, the Imago Day that we talked about, this idea that marriage and the family are really signs, the primordial sacrament pointing right to the love of the Trinity.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: If we want to twist and distort that, if we want to knock out humanity, that's exactly what we would do.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: We would attack this.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: And I'll just say this Linda, I'm just working with and I shouldn't really say working, but sharing with a number of men.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Juan has been a friend of mine for a long time.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: That's getting divorced because he got into pornography addiction and later on his relationship with his wife wasn't great.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: They have a number of kids, though I don't want to tell the exact amount because people want to identify this guy maybe but the idea is a lot of children and now they're going to get divorced because of his problem with pornography, even though I think he's overcome it to a large extent already.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: But his wife feels used, feels violated, feels like when they were intimate that he wasn't really thinking about her, and she can't get this out of her mind now that she was being used for years and so it's really something when you see the disintegration of someone that's been married for maybe 20 years, 25 years.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very sad but it's a good indicator of just how deep that wound is to that wife that it is so deep that he threw me away as a person and I became this object.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: That's extremely difficult to overcome.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I would pray for her that she finds a way to healing and the Lord can offer that healing to anyone who's been wounded that deeply.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: And hopefully she's on that path.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: But Jack, that's an example of something really that the hope is bringing out.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: In paragraph two of this audience he kind of broadens the thought here to looking at a culture and he says that when a culture shows an explicit tendency to cover the nakedness of the human body, it's not doing that just for climatic reasons but also in relation to the process of the growth of man's personal sensibility, the progress of authentic human culture, of morality.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: It's probably possible to confirm this point also in the life of primitive people.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: So it's set me thinking about how does this play out in different cultures?
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: But he says the process of sharpening personal human sensibility is certainly a factor in food of culture.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: So I put that in the context of what is going on in our culture right now and you're seeing that personal sensibility of growth in our understanding of the beauty of the body and the morality that is a part of that, has just slipped away, and so our culture as a whole is decreasing in its growth in personal sensibility, like we're.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: What would be the opposite?
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: You know, we're moving away, we're becoming less cultured, so to speak.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a destruction that's coming out.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: We see it in the kids anxiety, depression, thoughts of suicide.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: They're even mixed up in their own bodies.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Even when you think about the trans movement and stuff, and and you know your heart has to go out to these young people.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: You know, one in four women walking around today, adult women was sexually abused in some way when they were children.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: One in six men walking around and and this is continuing to continuing to grow, and the biggest abusers now, the biggest growth rate and abusers, are our peers, especially older boys say, that are grooming and then using and it doesn't take long in today's culture a younger women and you know, promising them love for sex and etc.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Etc.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: So it's really something how deep this goes and and so let's talk about the solution as we wind down here.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: And the solution is that man on the cross.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: You know the solution to all this.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: These are hard things to overcome.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: You're going to overcome them by grace and you're going to overcome them by the sacraments.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: And when you look up at the crucifix again, I think the best way is to get down on your knees and and look up at a crucifix and and what is that crucifix saying to you?
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: What is that person of Jesus saying this is my body given for you, again pouring himself out to us?
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: And the opposite of that, of course, is grasping and taking, and.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: And you know, when you're kneeling there Thinking that, wow, I've spent my life taking and grasping and this is my life, you know, I'm looking at my wife or other people and say, you're, this is your body given for me, right, I'm taking this, you know?
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: And here's Christ pouring himself out.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: So now we have to ask him for the grace to in his heart.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: You know, look at, this is an old story.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: St Paul would say you have to die with him in order to rise with him again.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: These, these are difficult battles, that this is not going to be easy If you're addicted to alcohol or drugs or porn or anything else.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: It took you quite a few steps to get there and it's going to take some steps to get out of that.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: So you're up for a battle.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: You have to start to carry your cross, and we all have crosses to carry, and and but.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: But this is the, this is the narrow road that leads you really to life.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: You know, and and there's, there's, there's.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: You know the joy as you start to make progress, even small Steps, baby steps, and start to free yourself.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: The confessional is going to be one of the biggest ways to free yourself, full of grace, and then to receive the sacraments and then to Start to use temptation again as an invitation to prayer and start to see those images in your, in your mind Even.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: They come up from past women you looked at or men you looked at, and and when you see that don't don't try to stuff it down, but try to open that, that image up to God and start to pray for, and with that, that woman that you maybe never met, that you saw in pornography or in a picture or whatever.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: And so as you start to do that, as you start to sacrifice yourself, you're gonna have to start to fast and and to pray for these victims.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: This is the way to healing.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: It's it's not easy, but it's definitely worth trying.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: That is the answer.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Reminded me of that saying in the Bible where we're told run your heart, not your clothes.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: You know, open up your heart, that's.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: You need that grace.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: The grace is there, it's available.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: It's that reciprocity that we need to have when we look at that crucifix and he says this is my body given for you, but am I going to open up my heart to that grace or just, you know, let it fall off like Teflon?
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: You know, and that's the choice we have to make.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you see the reality of God.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: You know, look at, it's to our suffering and pain that we are brought back to God.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: We're brought back to our knees.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: You know, in our pride right, we just went to pride month again.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: You know, in our pride, what are we proud of?
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: You know, we're actually proud of our weaknesses.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: We're actually proud of our sins.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: We're proud of that.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: You know we it's amazing, culture that can, there's a parade that can go down your street and we're proud of our weaknesses and our sins because, jack, we thrown off the shame that we should be feeling for our sins, you see, and so the opposite then becomes that pride.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Here's one thought kind of winding this down to the pope pointed out that this violation of bodily shame was very obvious in concentration camps, you know, as the people were naked and so on, and he said it was a method the consciously destroy that sense of human dignity, that personal sensibility.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I see a lot of the ideology that we're dealing with now.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Those movements are doing exactly that, that they're consciously trying to destroy that sense of our human dignity.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: And Look at the cross and you regain it, you.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: You won't buy into it if you understand that.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: That's what's happening here.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: So, in in any context that one might be involved in with any of these issues, it's, you know I'm being attacked at the level of my human dignity, and so we need to fight back through that Appropriation of the grace that's available to us.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a John Paul would say, you know, something to the effect in Evangelum Vitae, the gospel of life, that it's an illusion to think that we can gain our culture back and our, even our country back If we don't start to understand what we're talking about here, because this is the bedrock of any of any culture, of any society, as, as the bishop from our Arlington pointed out.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: You know, this is the building cell, is marriage in the family, pornography and all these.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: It's not just pornography, it's all these distortions, it's.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: It's.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: You know, you don't even have to sexualize it when you demean God, when you demean the family and books and movies, when you Demean what it means to be a father or a man and take them out of the, out of the family.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: You know we see this destruction in the inner city with these mobs running loose.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: And again, if you asked those mobs, you know 15, 20 people in the store stealing.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: If, if, as they came out, if you can interview them and ask them how many grew up with both biological parents and had a stable household, I bet you wouldn't find many that you know that are in that store doing that, that that had that stability right, so it twists and distortion many, many ways doesn't it Right, right, absolutely.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: All right, our time is up.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Linda, it goes fast, but we got to go, huh.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: So right, so much more I could say yeah.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Well, the good news is that we'll have next week to be able to do that right.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Right, Okay all right.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Hey, god bless you.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Linda, thank you so much for being with us.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Thanks everybody, thanks for joining us.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Talk to you again soon.