Latest / UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing / Personalized Gratitude: The Secret to Stronger Referral Relationships with Delisi Friday
Transcript
- UFYLM Delisi Friday: Welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing, the show. Where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F-bombs along the way. So let's get into it. Welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. I am so excited about our two-time guest today, Deleisi Friday. I am so happy that you are here. If you did not hear her former episode, listen to it. Stop what you're doing and listen to it. There is so much gold in there. she shares so much wisdom, which is exactly what she is going to be doing today. And We're gonna be focusing in on something that she is the queen of, which is referrals, which is what we talked about last time. As you know, if you did listen to the other one, she has spent more than twenty years in the legal industry helping out attorneys. Her father was an attorney. She worked for him when I think she was what, fourteen, fifteen years old, you know. Yes. and so she knows the business inside and out. And so she has This beautiful way of looking at this that is different than what I've typically hear from other coaches. So Delecy, welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. Hi, Gary. Thanks for bringing me back. We had so much time fun the first time. I'm excited to do this again. Me too. Me too. So and I loved your stories too. So so I have I have a personal question for you. Okay. And I want to let The audience know of a situation that happened to me. Last week, I got a phone call from my mailbox people. And they said, You've got a perishable package here. And it's Friday afternoon. I'm just about to go down to Tempe to pick up my son from the airport. And I'm like, I'll just wait. And they're like, it's perishable. I mean, they called me. So I'm like, what the fuck is that? Like, so I go there. And I get this package, and it's from Felice. And it is these exquisite chocolates and a board, like a chakerie board. The presentation was off the hook. It was so memorable. I can't, I mean, I've been talking about it with everybody, and it's only been what four days. So it made an impact for me. And so when I was thinking, my God, I want to start with this because. I think that gratitude is not something we always think about in business. And I want to get your take on when should we thank people? What's appropriate, especially for attorneys, because there's a lot of code of ethics that, you know, you can't do this and you can't do that. So what do you tell your your clients? But I really want to start with thanking and that gratitude and the gift giving. So What do you tell your clients, like, okay, this is minimum spec that you need to do? and when? This could actually be the whole episode. Okay. Okay. You hit the nail on the head. One of the things I talk to my clients about all the time is the importance of showing gratitude no matter what happens. And what I mean by that is oftentimes lawyers will think about expressing gratitude. When a referral comes in and it converts into a new client. But the gap that I see all the time is the referral will come in. It does not convert for whatever reason. Maybe it's not the right case type. Maybe it's a different venue. Tons of different reasons it might not convert. And not sharing gratitude when that happens. Yes. And I think gratitude is just as important, even if a referral doesn't convert, as it is when it does convert. And the example I'll give you is if I referred someone to you and I said, You have to call Gary. Gary is the person for you. Let me make this referral. And you talk to that person and it's not a good fit and nothing happens. But you never say thank you, Deleacey. And you never tell me what happens. Yeah. I'm now gonna be like, well, what the hell, Gary? Yeah. I thought I was giving you a great referral. I thought it would be someone that was right for you. If you don't show me gratitude, then I'm gonna be turned off by that because how you do anything is how you do everything. If you don't express the gratitude when I make the referral. And you never express the gratitude until the referral converts, then you're only expressing gratitude when it converts and you lose out on the people who are trying to refer you business. It just so happens that referral isn't the right one. So to start, I believe gratitude is important 100% of the time. As soon as a referral is made, even an introduction, I'm grateful for introductions if it's the right one. I want to share gratitude right away. And when it comes to the timing of it, this is where I will talk to a lawyer and their team and say, well, let's talk this out. What KPIs or what timeline do we want to agree to is appropriate when a referral comes in, whether it's accepted or not. To say thank you. And what does that look like? Because gratitude also has to become a part of your process. What you experienced is a part of my process. My executive assistant knows as soon as I have a communication with someone, as soon as I'm a guest on a podcast, as soon as someone refers someone to me, there is a thank you process. Everyone gets a gift at a certain amount. Everyone gets a thank you message. I approve. Because it's custom for each person, it's a part of the process. But the thank you doesn't happen if it's not a part of your process. You have to make it a part of your process. Yes. Yes. I love that. So so let me dive a little deeper into that. You said introductions, even introductions, you know, whether they were, you know, failed or not, if you get an introduction. That somebody's like, hey, Delise, I want to introduce you to Sally. And Sally never responds. You respond, but Sally doesn't respond. How would you show gratitude to me for making that introduction? This actually happens to me quite a bit, especially for the people in my network who are part of Provisors, which I know you are. Y'all are so stinking good at making introductions. However, we can only manage and be responsible for the introduction. We are not responsible for what happens after the introduction. And when that happens to me and the person I'm being introduced to doesn't take the action, what I will do is I'll follow up based on how interested and how appropriate it is for me. To be in touch with that person. Cause from time to time, someone will introduce me to someone and I'm like, this actually isn't the best introduction for me, but I'm also going to be courteous of that person's time and I'm going to respond. I'm not going to be on them like white on rice, following up every like two or three business days to schedule a meeting. I'm going to let a week pass and like see what happens. And if nothing happens, I'll follow up again. I'll follow up again. If I do not get a response, What I will do is follow up with the person who introduced us and say, hey, Gary, you introduced me to Sam. I just want to let you know I followed up with him two times already. I'm gonna make one final follow-up on Friday. But if he doesn't respond, I don't want to harass him for a meeting with me. And I just want you to know that because I want you to know I appreciate the introduction. And I'm doing my part to follow up. But if he doesn't schedule, then I'm okay with that. I want to just let you know I appreciate you and here's what I've done. Cause I want you to know if you make an introduction, I'm gonna follow up appropriately. And if something happens, I don't want you to think that I dropped the ball. And if you felt so strongly about that introduction, you might follow up with Sam and be like, Sam, what are you doing? I told you why Del C was awesome. Let me pick up the phone and help you out. So I give that person an opportunity to step in if they want to, but I say thank you and I keep them in the loop. So if the meeting doesn't happen, it's not a bad reflection on me. Do you like is that something that happens to you too? All the time. Yeah. I mean, and I always say that you're somebody else is thinking about you and they're trying to help you. Whether it works out or not, they're thinking about you. How awesome is that? We spend so much time on marketing and business development. Yet if it doesn't convert, screw it, like, nah. And it's like they thought of you. They actually, you know, picked up the phone or made the email to you. Why the are you not responding to it first and foremost? But secondly, why are you not sharing gratitude with that? You know, and if it's a shitty one, that's even a more A better opportunity to thank them and educate them at the same time, like what we had talked about last time, is that's a great time to educate because, and you said this so eloquently, the person is trying to help you out. And it's not a you know, I don't want to be that that person who is like Deleacey, that is a horrible, you know, thing. And It's not well, if you use that attitude, of course, if you're like, Yeah, that didn't work out, it was awful, you know, I want these kind of referrals. Of course. That's just being a dick. But most people are not going to do that. They share their gratitude and then they say, Hey, this is the reason why it wasn't a good fit, and these are the best just for future. And I appreciate it so much for either the introduction or the email or the referral. Yeah. I also think that. We have to take some kind of responsibility for that too. Because if you made that introduction to me, that tells me something that I said or something that I did didn't make it very clear the kinds of referrals that are good referrals for me. So if you made an introduction and you thought it was a great introduction, I am going to put that on me and say, I didn't make it clear to Gary. These are the types of referrals and introductions that are good for me. And so I will take ownership of that. I shouldn't place blame on you. I should place the blame on me. Yeah. Right. Right. And if they continue to give you, you know, poor ones, then it needs to be more blunt with the conversation. If you've been educating and you're like, okay, I actually had, and this has only happened once, but I had somebody I had to tell them, stop, stop this. You know, and And this is really gonna sound arrogant and I and I don't mean it to be that way, but he was using my my influence and my status. So it's like, I know Gary and let me introduce you to him, and you know, and let me refer you over to him. And the people they're like, Yeah, I sell state farm insurance. I'm like, that's fantastic. Like, I don't need like there's no like w why is this happening? Or they do this or they do that. And I'm like, what are you doing? But that is one in a million, right? It's not the norm. The norm is people really are trying to help you out. And they're not looking at it completely for them. You know, they are er I mean every decision we make, we're making at how we benefit. But they also think Wow, Delise's fucking awesome at what she does. I feel confident about sharing my network or referring somebody that has that need over to her because I know at least she's gonna take care of them and she's gonna do what is right for the client. And that's a pretty cool thing. Agreed. I also think not everyone naturally refers. Some people just don't naturally make introductions and referrals. And so when you meet someone who is putting forth the effort. I think there is an opportunity for us to kind of cultivate that relationship and make it clear what the best referrals are. Cause they're already like waving that flag saying, hey, I'm someone who likes to refer. If we can just have a couple more conversations with them and make it clear who we want to be introduced to and who's a good referral, it's a lot easier for us to switch that up. And so each of those referrals. become one that does convert into a client and is a good introduction or referral for us. Yep. Absolutely. So on the gift giving, like that fucking amazing gift that you gave me. Are there levels? Do you do you suggest to lawyers they have levels, you know, that, you know, this level is a Cadillac, this level is a steak knives, and this level is did you get that reference by the way? Yes. Uh-huh. Glenn Carey, Glenn Glenn Ross, yes. Always be closing. I love it. I love it. Okay. So what what's your philosophy on that? Yes. I think it depends on the attorney's time, team, tools, budget, what they feel comfortable with. In some instances, a phone call, a text message, an email is okay. In other instances, I'm gonna say you should send them a handwritten note. In other instances, I'm gonna say we need to send them a gift. Let's talk about a range that feels appropriate. And then I may say, okay, this referral was huge. We need to do something extremely different and not typical because this is a higher value referral. I'll give you an example. I have one client who is a nine figure law firm owner. He brought in a brand new referral partner who referred him an eight figure case. I was so ecstatic. I was like, heck yeah, this is why we do it. And then he's like, and what do we gift? And I was like, son of a gun, what do we gift? Yes. Because he it's an attorney to attorney referral. So the gift is already gonna be the fat attorney fee check I know that lawyer's gonna get. However, I truly believe referrals come from relationships and forget the check. He's not gonna get the check until the case settles or closes or they go to jury or whatever. So I want to send a gift or do something that shows you appreciate it early on because I believe that gratitude is important. So we started talking about gifts that are about connection. Can I do a private dinner somewhere? Where we have a chef that comes into your home and it's a five-course meal at your home where you invite that person's spouse and you have your spouse there too. And it's intimate, it's personal, it's about spending time together and getting to know each other. That was actually my recommendation. I knew a private chef in that area and I was like, let's do this in your home. Let's make it intimate. It's about connection. There's nothing we can gift that person that is going to feel right. So in instances like that, I truly believe the gift is getting to know that person and creating a relationship and creating not a gift, but an experience. Let's create an experience and an opportunity for you two to get to know each other on a personal level because that's what will deepen the relationship. And so the tiers are different based on how much time do you have, what feels appropriate. What is the value of the referral that just came in? And then let's take it from there. Yeah, I love that. Because I think that there's too many times we discredit a handwritten note. And and I actually I experienced this with one of my old clients. And I had for Christmas, I had bought this perfectly beautiful basket. It had the wine of like that he loved and and it was just fantastic. It cost me probably about six hundred dollars. I hand delivered it. And when I walked into his office, he was like, Gary, thank you so much. And then he said, Hey, over to the right, you want to just put it down on my cerenza? And I looked over there and there were like a hundred other baskets there. And I was like, Mother Fucker and I was pissed, right? And so I wasn't really pissed at him. I was more pissed at myself. But the next year I was like, you know what? Screw it. I'm gonna write him a Christmas note and I'm just gonna mail it. I'm not gonna go down there. I'm just mailing it. I got a phone call from him and we spent about a half an hour on the phone. And he's like, I cannot tell you how much that meant to me. And it wasn't because it was handwritten. The message in there was personalized to him. And if we personalize, and you had brought that up, it needs to make sure that I have a personalized message. When it's personalized, it's so much deeper in meaning. And and it shows that you know them. I mean, you could hold on. I just so one of my members in my group coaching program gave me a gift. So it was this big bag. And she had a bunch of stuff in there. And here was one of those things that was in there. If you can see this. Fucks to give. And all of these are oops. Are little wooden things that say fuck. She also gave me like I love puzzles and so does she. And we we exchange puzzles regularly. She gave me one that said it's a black one with white writing it says fuck, and then it gives the definition of fuck. That's the puzzle. And it only like Probably cost her fully all in with all the different things, probably twenty bucks. But I remembered it, right? It was personalized, you know? And it was, you know, it's that thoughtfulness that we don't have to spend a grip. The more personalized it is, I feel it's the the more impactful. And if you then add an experience on that. You're taking it to a whole nother level and you're being intentional about like you had said, and I think it's brilliant. You are trying to continue to build our relationship. What is a better way than having an experience with somebody that you'll always remember the experience and who you were with during that experience? Yes. One hundred percent. I so when I was in my role in-house in a law firm. We had a terrace suite at the ATT center where the San Antonio Spurs played. I used that as an opportunity to create those experiences. It was always about bringing people to a basketball game, even if they didn't like the basketball game. The experience was being in the arena, hearing the cheers, watching the game, having The food inside of the suite, watching your kids light up with joy when the ice cream cart came, like just having those conversations. It didn't have to do anything with work. It was about connection. So the gift was the experience. The gift was creating those opportunities for connection. And I love that she gave you something personal and that you gave the example of the card that meant more. Than the gift you had done the holiday before. I have a very contrarian view and I'm gonna share it. And some people might love it and some people might hate me for it, but you opened the door, so I'm gonna walk through it, Gary. Walk through it, run. I am a believer in make November the new December. And shout out to my client, Michael James, who helped me come up with that catchy phrase for it. Because what you described is what everyone does. Weeks one through three of December are always for holiday gift giving. Everyone and their mom is gonna do some kind of holiday gift, December first through like December 20th. You just know it. And when you do that, you are one of hundreds of other gifts that happen. It doesn't stand out. The gift is almost like an obligation. December is here. That's when we do holiday gifts. However If everyone just tried to like change their mindset just a little bit and said, what is November about? What is the vibe? What is the mood? What is the tone? What is the message of November? November is about thankfulness. It's about gratitude. It's about appreciating things in your life. That's literally what Thanksgiving and the month of November is about. So I train my clients make November the new December. Do not send a holiday gift because it feels like an obligation and you're one of many. However, if I can convince you to change your mind, if instead of Gary, here is this gift basket for you, it's that same gift basket, but the message is not happy holidays. The message is Gary, in the month of November, I want to take a moment and show how appreciative I am of you and how thankful I am for our relationship together. I truly appreciate you and the trust you put in me when you refer someone our way. That message lands totally different. That message has a completely different tone. And it feels like gratitude and appreciation before the month of December when everyone says happy holidays and they give a gift basket or a popcorn tin or wine or whatever they're gonna do. And so To your point, I think if people continue to do the holiday gifts, but they changed it to November, and instead of happy holidays, they truly wrote a thoughtful message and it was around thankfulness and gratitude, I think it would land completely different. I think they would stand out. Yep. It's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. Like I read a book Do it long time ago called Giftology. That's that's the book right there. Mm-hmm. Okay. R. A. P. John Rulin. Yeah, and and he talks a lot about March. Give a gift in March. Like give a gift, you know, a summer gift. And he's very much against December, you know, because you got Hanukkah and you got Christmas right there. And and he's like, That's not gonna make you memorable. And he also says don't do it in January because they already have gotten so many gifts. That it'll just it it almost like it just gets sucked into the December aspect, right? And and you're right, November Thanksgiving is the month of thanks. It's the month of gratitude. And like nonprofits know this extremely well. They're trying to fundraise in November, one before you start spending all your fucking cash on the kids, but also because you do feel grateful. And and I do think that. If an attorney is listening to this and you're like, yes, I gotta do this, make sure you do what the Lisi said before. Put it in your process. You gotta make it a process. You have to make it so that it's intentional. Because we get start getting stressed out in October because this shit's gonna be coming. And then we're like, my God. And if you already are, I know in November I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. Then it makes it so much easier as opposed to, shit, I forgot. Yeah, that's right. Delisi gave me this great advice and I well next year. Next year's not gonna come. Like nope, it isn't, you know. Maybe put it out in the process for March, that next March, you know, and and I truly, truly agree with you about it's an obligation in December. I feel it's an obligation. It's like I gotta do something for them. You know, and it also takes the joy away from giving gifts too, because you're like, Well, I have to, and then they're probably gonna compare it with somebody else who gave something better and and my fucking head goes into just horrible places, right? And it's like, What about if you did in November? How much more impactful would that be? Yeah. Exactly. You know how much of like December messes with me? I am the person who truly feels uncomfortable if someone gives me a gift and don't have anything to give back. my god, Who has a standard gift that I have already packaged that could be like a candle or a blanket or a puzzle or something nice? Like it's just this thing that I could give to anybody. So if someone says, Telezy, I got you a gift, I can be like, I got you something too. And it's this gift that I have like on like the side over here that's for anyone because I feel uncomfortable when someone does that to me. And so Do November. You don't get stressed out because December already stresses me out. I'm already thinking about the holidays and all the other things that I have to do. If I do this in November, it's one less thing and people are not expecting it. Yes. Yeah. Do you also teach your clients of who to give gifts to, who to give cards to, and who to fuck off? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I do. What is there like a threshold? Yes. Like So I teach my clients something I call the traffic light system. Green, yellow, red. Green is your tier one. The people give you referrals on a regular basis and higher value referrals. Yellow is your tier two. It's the people give you referrals once in a while. They're gonna be a lower value referral. It's inconsistent, or someone you're nurturing that relationship with and they're on their way. Tier three is your red light, people you don't really have a relationship with yet. you're trying to see if you can move them through the pipeline. And so we'll look at our list because I have all of my clients have a list. Because if you don't have a list, well then you don't know who you're trying to get referrals from. And I'll say, great, let's look at this list. What are we doing? What's our budget? What's the gift we want to do? Where are we drawing the line? Because not everyone should be getting the same gift unless it's this like really amazing gift that we all agree on. But let's agree on what that is. And some people can just get a card. And I still think the card is impactful if you do it in November. And it's a different message. It's about thankfulness for the relationship. I will take a thankful for your relationship card in November over a gift basket in December every day of the week. Like in my opinion, that lands differently and it I agree it feels different. Yeah. It feels more authentic. It feels more important It feels more personalized as opposed to obligation. Like I I it always it always amazes me when I get Christmas cards from people and it's just their signature just at the end. How many times did they just sign that? And then and and also the envelope has label my label address, you know. Now, granted, I'm appreciative, I'm still very grateful for it. But it's not the same sort of impact that I tell my clients, you want to have impact, you want to be memorable. These are some of the things that you should do. Don't just freaking sign your name. You know, that's not something, you know, that should be happening. but you could do these other things. Will it take more time? You bet it will. It totally will. Like buckle up. And guess what? But it's gonna be more impactful, you're gonna be more memorable. They're gonna feel that gratitude. So would you rather have efficiency or effectiveness? Like. that's beautiful. I know, right? Yeah, I like that. I'm still in that. Go for it. Yeah. Cause I tell like I tell my members, look, because they're like, how can we how can we automate this and how can we do that? And and I love automation. Don't get me wrong. But If you really want to get somebody to an event and you're going to send a mass email out, I can assure you you're not going to get as many people there. You just won't. We all know what a mass email looks like, what it feels like. It's very generic. But if you spend, let's say, two hours, two hours and just sending out, you you still have like the bulk of the email, but you're just basically going, hey, Here, here, and you just personalize it at the beginning and da da da. When they see that, they feel like they have to respond in some way or another. It's like fantastic. That is such a more effective way. It's not efficient. It's not efficient, but I'd rather go for effectiveness than efficiencies, you know. So I agree. I agree. Yeah. my God. Delecy, again, I I feel like I could talk to you every fucking day of the the year. I It it's such a joy because not only because of your personality and your energy, but also you look at things differently because of your experience. And it's always through the lens of helping out people, not just clients. It's helping out people. And you have such a giving heart. And that's why I was like, referral, referral, referral. And I know that that's your specialty too. And I felt it. I could felt it. I was like, holy shit. It is so good. And I'm like, I have to bring this up, you know, in our podcast. And I I am grateful for you. Like I'm I'm grateful for Soldano too of introducing us, you know. Yes. And and it's now I have to give him one of these fucks, you know, because I give a fuck. You do. I will you please tell me like where they had that made? Because you brought that out and I'm like, I know exactly who I'm gonna give that to. Yeah, I will ask her. I'll ask her. I'm like, hey, people have been asking me, people you so yeah. Yeah. But thank you again for your time, for your wisdom and everything that you do for lawyers. I I truly appreciate you. And if you want to get a hold of this fucking great human being, all of her contact information is in the show notes. Also, if you haven't listened, if you've gotten through this and you still haven't listened to the last one, go back. Go back and listen to that because it's different. And you're gonna learn a shitload about referrals and really how to build those great relationships so that you can get more business. And Talisi, thank you again. I appreciate you. Thank you. It was great speaking with you again, Gary. Yeah. Talk soon. That's it for today's episode of Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. If you got a spark of inspiration. Learn something new, or at least got a good laugh. Make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me. And remember, the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.