Latest / Justice For / Deborah Nicholls| Conviction Overturned
Transcript
- justice for: After spending nearly 18 years behind bars, serving three consecutive life sentences for the murders of her three children, Deborah Nichols has had her convictions overturned. In 2008, Deborah was found guilty of helping orchestrate the fire that killed eleven year old JJ, five year old Sophia, and three year old Sierra inside their Colorado Springs home. She was sentenced to spend the rest of her life in prison with no chance of ever coming home. But nearly two decades later, a judge has ruled that prosecutors withheld critical forensic evidence from her defense. Evidence that could have changed how the jury viewed the entire case. But before we get into what this ruling means and how a case that seems settled for nearly eighteen years has been reopened, we need to go back to the beginning. Because the story isn't just about a conviction being overturned, it's about three children who lost their lives, a devastating house fire, and a criminal investigation whose evidence is now under renewed scrutiny. So, welcome back to Justice 4. We are your hosts, I'm Jackie, and I'm Sam. Yikes. Sam and I are chillin' today, man. Yeah, she's she's done with her work, so now she's Yeah, I'm showing my work for the day. Real quick, before we get into all of that that I just unloaded on you guys because it was a lot. Yeah. We do have a live show coming up next week. It's it's finally here. I'm I'm so excited. it is October thirtieth, painting with twists, powers and constitution, seven PM. It's gonna be a candle making. We have any I I have an incredible strip for this. Yeah, it's her episode this time. So excited. so grab your tickets. There's a link below on our website. Make sure you're following us everywhere so that you get the updates. if we're sold out and more tickets become available, that's definitely where you're gonna be notified of that at. Yes. anything else you need to add? Go follow us on all of our socials. Yeah, at Justice4 Podcast. Yeah, or you can go to our website at Justice4 Podcast dot com where you can find all of our episodes, find all of our socials as well as resources and where to submit a case. Yeah. And all of our merch, which is gonna have holiday merch if not now soon. I've been designing it for a few weeks now. And I'm excited about it. It's gonna be so good. Now, before we get into this case, I wanna make something clear right here, up front, out the gate. If you've been following the recent recent forensic scandals here in Colorado, particularly the absolute shit show surrounding Yvonne Missy Woods, you might think that's what this case is about. It's not. Completely separate, completely different from that. I cannot believe we have a k conviction getting overturned that has to do with the CBI and evidence, but has absolutely nothing to do with this woman. I love this for you. I love this for me too because that She hates that bitch. And it made this episode significantly shorter if we didn't have that connection. Period. So just so y'all aren't waiting for that, it's not gonna happen. Wonderful news. I didn't even think about that. Deborah Nichols' conviction wasn't overturned because of the Missy Woods DNA scandal. It was overturned because the court found prosecutors failed to disclose evidence that could have changed the entire case in front of a jury. And honestly, this case opens up a whole other conversation about tunnel vision and criminal investigations, which we all know is one of my favorite things to talk about. And it also, you know, kind of opens up the conversation about the weight we give expert testimony and what happens when someone becomes so committed to their original conclusion that they're unwilling to take a step back and ask whether they might be wrong. You know, these egos be getting in the way. Yeah. Because forensic science isn't frozen in time. Our understanding of fire behavior has evolved and it evolves from one year to the next sometimes. Investive is I feel like it's not one that we talk about frequently. No. So like people don't even think about what kind of investigation goes into pyro yes situations. You know what I mean? over years investigative methods have improved and technology has given experts new ways to examine evidence. And sometimes that means revisiting conclusions that were once presented as fact. But what happens when science raises questions and the people who helped build the original case aren't willing to reconsider their conclusions? That's that's the main question we're exploring today. Punch someone in the face. If is what you're gonna want to do at the end of this case. Great. Because back in 2003, three children died in a devastating house fire in Colorado Springs. Their parents became the focus of a criminal investigation, and investigators ultimately concluded that the fire had been deliberately set. But as we're about to discover, the evidence behind that conclusion wasn't nearly as straightforward as the jury was led to believe. So, let's go back to the beginning, to the family, the fire, and the investigation that would ultimately send Deb and Tim Nichols to prison for the rest of their lives. Let's do it, man. Deborah Nichols was born and raised in northern Michigan. Deb grew up in a large blended family with seven brothers and sisters. God damn. There was never a dull moment in her childhood. Deb and her siblings spent every day skating, swimming, skiing, basically anything they could do outside, they were doing it. Deb described living in northern Michigan as the perfect place to live. All four seasons perfectly came and went, and there was always something to do. Okay. Honestly, I spent I spent some summers in Michigan growing up as a kid and Michigan it has a lot of different stuff depending on where you drive in the state. And you know that you're there. Why can't I think of it's like a little island. I just want to go to that damn island? Yes, that's all I want. I just want to go to that damn island. I'll take you. You know, she just had that childhood. It was just great. That's awesome. All of her siblings, always family around, always something to do. We love when people have good childhoods. After graduating high school, Deb decided to move to California to attend college in San Diego. Okay. After a year studying in San Diego, Deb decided to move to Colorado Springs, where her family had relocated. Okay. A few years later, when Deb was twenty four, she welcomed her first child, JJ. And Deb she just loved being a mom. So it was no surprise when she went on to have another son, Spencer. Unfortunately, Spencer was just three months old when he passed away from SIDS. For those of you who don't know, sudden infant death syndrome. Deb was absolutely devastated when Spencer passed away. She could hardly hold herself together and the funeral the funeral's torture for her. God, I can't imagine. Specifically that little casket sitting there in front of that big room. She just I'm sorry, they should it was almost too much. They should not be able to make caskets that small. I'm just saying. By nineteen ninety three, Deborah was a single mom to JJ, going to school. She was working two jobs just to make ends meet. But luckily she had the support of her family to help her they lived close by, they helped her out. You know, it takes a village. Yeah. Between her two jobs, JJ and school, Deb rarely got a night a night to herself. But when she did, you can bet she was out singing karaoke. It was one of her favorite things to do. It was on one of these rare karaoke nights to herself that Deb met Timothy Nichols. That night, Deb walked into the bar and she saw Tim on stage singing one of her favorite songs from when she was in eighth grade, Shining Star. And she said that he sounded great and she was just drawn to him in his energy. after he got done singing, she was like, You sound great, come hang out over here. And they spent the rest of the night together, just talking and singing and having a good time. And honestly, they kind of became inseparable after this night. Hell yeah. Yeah, there is something about a man that'll just sing karaoke. Right. And you walk in and he is singing your favorite song from middle school. Period. Done. Tim quickly became a huge part of JJ's life, eventually adopting JJ. Holy shit. Yeah. Hell yeah, Tim. Deborah and Tim got married, and in nineteen ninety-seven they welcomed their first child together, Sophia. Lovely. And then two years later they welcomed another girl, Sierra. she was also called Sierra May. I kind of bounced back and forth in there. and as if having three kids didn't keep them busy enough, Debentum started a construction business, specifically framing for houses and stuff like that. And in two thousand they bought a house in the village seven area of Caldo Springs, which is over by the Powers Corridor, in between Academy and Powers. the Nichols family was I love that neighborhood. I do too. Actually when we looked at houses, that was one of the main areas that we looked at was in Village 7. It's like a good, like wholesome like it just reminds me of like 90s family living, you know? They also have really good street names over there. I'm pretty sure there's a street called Nevermind, and I wanted to live on that street so bad for some reason. The name I don't put it in here a lot is Undim Circle. Mm-hmm. They just have good street names over there and it's just such a cute area. So the Nicholas family was thriving. The kids were getting out, getting out of the baby phase, making it easier for Tim and Deb to be able to go out every now and then for a date night. And of course, those nights always ended at a karaoke bar somewhere. And they just both loved to sing. It's how they met, and that just never died. I love And the easiest things to do. Like even if you're not good at it, it's Everyone sings. It's so fun. After a couple shots, it's tequila. Everybody's singing. I don't even need tequila. Me in a car or a shower, I sound just like Alicia Keys. And Deb just she just described Tim as this powerhouse who she just never got tired of seeing and hearing sing. I love that. And it was on one of these karaoke date nights that Deb and Tim began toying with the idea of starting their own karaoke business. my gosh. And it didn't take long for this idea to become a real thing. They got all the best equipment, bought all the good karaoke songs, and The karaoke business for them never felt like work. They just enjoyed it and it was just something they were already doing that anyway, now they're making money doing it. Heck yeah. All right, and they enjoyed the karaoke community and the whole community just opened them with welcome marks. I love it. By 2003, the Nichols were living the American dream. They owned their own businesses. Deb was in the process of getting her real estate license and the karaoke business was thriving, so is their construction business. they're fucking hustlers, dude. Hustlers. Jesus. And sure, they were constantly on the go, but they still made time for each other and always made time for family time. Wonderful. Thursday, March sixth, two thousand three was just like any other chaotic day for the Nichols family. Deb was getting things together for a birthday party that JJ was invited to the following day. And this wasn't just Any birthday party? This crazy, crazy woman, okay, was taking ten twelve year olds skiing by herself. Excuse me? Not Deb, JJ's friend's mom. Yeah. But like, yeah. So Deb figured the least she could do for this other mom was get snacks together for these kids. Love it. So she went to the store and she grabbed a bunch of snacks and other stuff for these preteen boys. Yeah. I'm sorry, when was this again? March of two thousand three. Wonderful. So right around spring break time. Wonderful. But I know you don't know this, but y'all who have more than one kid, you know the golden rule. You can't get something for one kid and not get something for the other kids. I mean ya can, but they throw a fit. So Deb grabs some sparkly tattoos for the girls. Cute. Right, three and five years old. We are in like sparkly temporary tattoo heaven at this point, okay? I'm 34 and I want some sparkly tattoos, alright? Having a full having a house full of small children is always chaotic. But Deb said that night the Kids were so hyper, more than normal. JJ was just so excited about the party and skiing, and the girls were just over the moon about their tattoos. Same. And of course, while all of this is going on, Deb is trying to make dinner, clean up the house. Be a mom. Yeah. And the cleaning part was hard because, you know, the kids just kept getting up. Deb said it took four or five times of putting them back to bed before they finally fell asleep that night. my gosh. It was just one of those nights. I mean I'm so glad I'm out of that those nights now that I've like a full teenager, but Some nights randomly you're like, Would you just go to bed? What is wrong with you? I feel that way about myself sometimes too. But I can control myself. Most of the time. So after the kids finally fell asleep, Deb finally could get down to cleaning the house. Mm-hmm. And Tim didn't get home until around eleven PM. He had been working really long days for the past couple weeks at the construction business. No way. And wait, he was he working construction until eleven? Or did he have like Like he owned the business, so he was probably out there with the crews and they're probably doing some I mean, it's March. They probably had a week of like good weather. Probably. You know what I mean? And so they were trying to put as much as they could if they're coming to be into something or doing like eleven. Electrical work after the framing, you're already inside and you can have lights going. Well was thinking maybe he had a karaoke thing until eleven too. No, he was at the construction business till eleven. So Deb knew that Tim was gonna be exhausted when he got home. So she made sure to have his favorite beer chilling in the fridge, and dinner was fresh out of the oven when he got home. She had also lit some candles like one does after cleaning the house and just kinda to give him a relaxing mood when he got home. Okay. Deb had an interview that night for a new karaoke jockey for the karaoke business. Okay. And so shortly after Tim got home, Deb headed out to do the interview. And as she left, she reminded Tim to blow out the candles before he headed to bed. That is so late. It was late. But I have a feeling it was more of like a a slightly practical interview where she was meeting him at karaoke time, or also she had to wait for Tim to get home in order for her to go meet him. That's right. And he had been They probably went to do karaoke together. Yeah, so she met him. So Tim stayed at home with a kids and she went to met the karaoke jockey and there was her karaoke company was doing karaoke that night so I would be willing to bet kind of showing them how it goes, talking to them, seeing what they can do for a little bit. Get up on the stage, see how you do. Yeah, see how you do behind the mic over here with the URL making it. Yeah yeah yeah. And it would make sense to do that later at night 'cause you kinda gotta have the equipment going, doing all that stuff. Especially if it was like a Friday maybe. It was a Thursday night. So yeah. okay, yeah. Hell yeah. So, Deb reminded Tim to blow out the candles before he headed to bed. Kept kids were asleep. She headed off. After the interview was over, Deb decided to hang around the bar for a little bit, sing some karaoke, have a couple drinks. She knew the kids were asleep, and Tim was also probably asleep by now. Mm-hmm. So why not hang out? after having a couple drinks, Deb decided it probably wasn't a good idea for her to drive home. So she had asked one of her employees, Carl, if he would drive her home. And he was like, Yeah, no problem. But hey, like, we gotta wait till the end of the night, the bar closes, we gotta clean everything up before we can head Makes sense. And she was like, Yeah, that's fine. So she decided to hang out, help him with karaoke that night. Mm-hmm. It was around two forty AM when Deb and Carl turned on to Deb Street. Okay. And when they did, they were greeted by so many flashing lights and people. And it wasn't until they were getting closer to the house that Deb got this growing panic inside her. And I have seen accounts where she drove up to the house, and I've also heard accounts from her specifically that she had Carl stop the car and she jumped out of the car and ran the rest of the way to the house. Okay. I just wanna I don't I just wanna make that distinction in here. I feel like if there was that many Police and there was about two hundred people in front of her house, fire trucks and stuff by this time. In the car. So yeah. And she probably would have been stopped. Yes. I know this much about this case. Once Deb got close enough to see her house, she realized it was her house that was on fire. Her first thought was she had to get inside to her children. As she made her way to the house, she could start to hear neighbors pointing her out to firefighters and police saying that's her. That's the mom. Mm-hmm. Yeah. As Deb was trying to get to the house, firefighters and police told her she couldn't go any further. She tried to push past them. Her only thought was, I had to get to my babies. Mm-hmm. She just kept asking what happened? What happened? The only response she would get from officers or firefighters was, you have to go to the hospital for answers. A neighbor actually told Deb that Tim had been taken away in an ambulance and so were the kids. Okay. So Deb agreed to go to the hospital, and an officer actually drove her to the hospital. Now, I have seen reports that Carl drove Deb's white Camaro to the house. Okay. And I have also seen reports that Carl just gave her a ride. To the hospital. To the house. Okay. So I had initially assumed That because Carl gave her a ride home, she didn't have a car, so the police had to take her to the hospital. But then in later reports, I see that she showed up in her white Camaro. But Carl drove her there. This is a v that like that is a fact. So I'm wondering if because she had a couple drinks, regardless of her car being there, Carl either took her car and drove it to his house. Mm-hmm. I don't know how the heck Carl was getting home if they drove her car. but regardless, police drove her to the hospital. Yeah. And Not a single word was spoken to Deb on the way to the hospital. I get it. Nothing. When Deb arrived at the hospital, they took her to a room and told her that the doctor would be in a talk to her soon. What the doctor told Deb was the last thing she ever thought she would hear. The doctor told Deb that eleven year old JJ and three year old Sierra died in the fire. Instantly the shock and adrenaline kicked in, and Deb's fight or fight took over, and she just ran out the hospital door. Okay. Once outside, she realized how impractical her thoughts were to just run, like it would make all this go away. But it was also in that moment she realized that the doctor only said JJ and Sierra were dead. Yes. What about Sophia? Yes. So Deb went back into the hospital where they took her to Sophia's room. Okay. Sophia was hooked up to so many tubes and wires, and Deb said there's only a tiny spot on her chest that was open. like that wasn't covered by tubes, wires, or anything else. Okay. And she just said that she looks so peaceful, just just laying there, just untouched, like she was sleeping. Sophia was alive, but she was barely alive. Okay. So they allowed Deb to just lay with her. And while Deb was in that room just sitting with her and being with her, they told her that Tim was also alive, but he was in critical condition in the ICU, being tr being treated for burns, and he was potentially going to be lifelighted to Denver. Okay. He also had injuries from falling out of the window. As if Deb wasn't going through enough, it was at this time she was asked to say goodbye to Sierra. Deb was given the opportunity to hold Sierra Mae, who they had nicknamed Ra Ra, and Deb described her as their peace and calm. She was so curious and liked to observe and quietly check things out. She was such a daddy's girl that Deb decided to put Tim's wedding ring on Sierra so that she could be buried with it. Hold on, wait a minute. She they Wait. Wait. Mm-hmm. The three year old. Mm-hmm. They told her she could go say goodbye to her at the hospital. Okay. Like they had And she put Tim's wedding ring on her? After Sierra, yep. Sierra because so Sierra and JJ were taken to the hospital already deceased. Yes. So, But they okay, why couldn't she say goodbye to sweet JJ? That was her firstborn. We're getting there. I'm getting ahead of myself. We're getting there. Okay, I'm sorry. So she was asked to say goodbye to Sierra and she had already had Tim's ring on, had they the hospital given her Tim's wedding ring 'cause they took it off of him. Belongings. Yeah, when they were trying to save him and all of that. And so sh that's how she ended up with it to put it on Sierra. Okay. Then Deb had to say goodbye to JJ. Yep. Whose nickname was Peanut. Cute. JJ was Deb's little buddy since he was born. They were two peas in a pod. They had been through so much together, and she described him as her passion. Deb was just. In complete shock that all of this was happening so fast. I couldn't even fucking imagine. Seventeen hours after firefighters arrived on the scene of the house fire and pulled five year old Sophia, who was barely alive from the burning house, Sophia was taken off of life support. Deb described Sophia as her joy. From the day she was born, she was just happy, always smiling, and just loved people. When Deb said goodbye to Sophia, she put her own wedding ring on Sophia so she could be buried with it. Immediately after saying goodbye to Sophia, Deb along with the family that had gathered at the hospital that day headed to Denver where Tim was being where Tim was recovering in their burn unit. Okay. Not knowing what else to do, Deb and their family sat vigil with Tim in his hospital room. Okay. Do you any questions? I have many, many. Many, many things. Many th many. Okay. Let me let me give you a little bit more first. Okay. Yep, do that. As Deb and Tim sat in shock grieving their three children and the loss of everything they owned. Tim was awake? He was chill. He was awake. We're we'll we'll we'll get into Tim's condition. Okay. As Deb and Tim sat in shock grieving their three children and the loss of everything they owned along with the life they knew. Just completely in disbelief of how quickly this horrible tragedy had happened. Meanwhile, multiple agencies were descending upon their home in Colorado Springs. There's always an investigation when there is a fire to determine what caused it. When it's a house fire, the insurance companies have their own investigators, as is the fire department and the police department. Then we have the death of three children, so there is also that added layer of investigation to determine the cause of death. Yeah. First let's talk about what Tim told officers happened that night. Yeah. He was interviewed multiple times while still in the hospital. Then we will get into their autopsies. 'Cause I know you have questions about how they died. I I it's mostly Sophia I have questions. I have I'm pretty sure JJ and Sierra Mae, I'm assuming are more than likely the fire. And I don't know if it's inhalation or if it was just excessive burns to the point, like you know what I'm saying. But Sophia's the one I'm really questioning and like why they essentially decided to take her off life support. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I'll answer those. I'll answer all of that for you. My biggest question though is why'd you jump out the window, bitch? Tim said that he was startled to wake around two AM. Sophia was already asleep next to him in bed. She had crawled into bed with him an hour or so prior. Jophia? Sophia. JJ and Sierra were still asleep in their rooms. Tim walked to the top of the stairs and noticed the house was uncomfortably warm. As he looked down the stairs, he noticed it was dark, which was really unusual because they had a fish tank in the living room that had a light on it. And that light just kind of like lit up the bottom of the stairs. Yeah. All right. So he walked down the stairs, and that's when he noticed the stove light in the kitchen was off. Okay. And he was like, Okay, the power must be out. So he looked out the window right there and saw that the house across the streets front porch light was on. He went, Okay, so he went to the garage the circuit breaker, thinking something must have tripped it. Once in the garage, he opened an exterior door, and that's when everything just happened so fast. Tim said he heard this whoosh behind him, and when he turned around, there was a bright light coming from inside the house. He ran through the kitchen to the living room, which was now filled with smoke. Tim quickly made the decision to rush upstairs where his children were sleeping. While doing so, part of the ceiling collapsed onto Tim, burning part of his neck and back. There was so much smoke Tim could hardly see. He made his way to his bedroom and opened the window to get air, and hopefully to get the smoke to clear some so he could see. While opening the window, Tim lost consciousness and woke up on the ground outside the house, and he didn't know how he got there. The last thing he remembered was opening the window and holding Sophia's hand. Okay. When firefighters arrived on scene, Tim was barefoot and only wearing boxers. He was covered in soot and sweat, and he was pretty badly injured. He had burns covering 10% of his body. Both of his corneas were singed. His right wrist was broken from the fallout of the window, and Tim was yelling that he couldn't see and just screaming. As a firefighter grabbed his arm to help him to the ambulance, Tim's skin just peeled off his arm. He quickly let them know that his three children were still trapped inside the house. The fire department arrived just after 2 a.m. And the fire was already out of control. A window in the living room had been blown out and a tree in the front yard had caught fire as well. By the time the firefighters were inside the house, a flashover event had already occurred in the living room, which basically is the moment that the fire's radiant heat becomes so intense everything instantly bursts into flames. Because of this, there normally firefighters would retreat after a flashover because their hoses is doing nothing whatsoever. But when there are children still inside, there is no retreating and all the stops get pulled out. Period. One of the firefighters, Clark Gaddy, said, It's always harder to find children in fires than it is adults, because adults tend to run to windows and doors, but children tend to hide in closets under beds and blankets, so they knew they were Going to have to search to find these kids. Eleven year old JJ was found curled up at the end of the hallway. Five year old Sophia and three year old Sierra were found in Deb and Tim's bedroom. Sophia was behind the door, partially covered under a blanket. Sierra was initially overlooked because she was mistaken for a doll. Brother. All three children were unconscious when they were found and carried outside. Unfortunately, JJ and Sierra were already deceased when they were found in the house. But to everyone's amazement, Sophia was still alive barely, but she was alive. All three children had overwhelming damage to their lungs, which was a major contributor to their death. The coroner went on to note that any place on the children's bodies that wasn't covered by pajamas or sweatpants was blackened with soot. Okay. Remember that. On it. JJ had thermal burns over sixty-five percent of his body, meaning flames caused his burns. Yeah. Autopsy determined that he was alive when those burns occurred. Sierra had significant radiant radiant burns on her body, which happened from the heat of the fire, not the actual flames of the fire. Sophia also had significant radiant burns, but because she was partially under the blanket, she wasn't breathing in as much carbon dioxide as JJ and Sierra were, which ultimately is what kept her alive. Unfortunately, she suffered significant brain damage, and that's what ultimately led to her death of them pulling her off of life support because Was it because of the lack of oxygen? Yeah. Still that caused the brain damage. And that's why. So did they consider her brain dead then at that point? And that's I don't have a specific feeling. finding of that, but yes, I am the fact that she was not like seventeen hours after this, they were taking her off life support and telling Deb to say goodbye to her. Yeah. So yeah, we were pretty got it. I wanna point something out to everyone as well just because I know I brought this up in an episode in like season one, I'm pretty sure. So the way you can tell if an injury occurred when someone is alive, especially if it hits like blood fat like veins and things like that, is your blood it pumps. Like it's pumping through your body. And if you're still alive when something happens, it creates a different like you can tell that blood is still pumping. Whereas if someone is deceased and something happens it's a different kind of like blood pooling and things like that. So that's generally how they can tell if someone was alive during an interesting. So they were all they all three children died from the fire. Yeah. Okay. On the day of the fire at the hospital, Deb told police and her mom about the candles she left burning and how she told Tim to put them out before he went to bed. Kind of just talking out loud, trying to find an explanation of to how this could have happened. And the candles were the only thing she could think of. She was trying to process this. She's probably already having Survivor's Gut too, and like, what if She literally quote said to her mom, I killed my kids. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't her admitting to doing this on purpose, it was just one of I should have blown the candles out when I left. Yes. I should have done this. They would still be here. Yeah. So let's go back to the investigation I mentioned earlier. Yes. The fire was finally put out just before 3 30 AM. Immediately, police officers and fire investigators started searching the house. Within hours, members from the CSPD major crime units were there and the CBI had arrived, along with an investigator from American Family Insurance. It took days for them to process the 1700 square foot house, taking videos and pictures. They even brought in Aaron, who is a Labrador retriever trained to detect accelerants that can be used to start fires. I love hardworking boys. Erin and her handler Jerry did multiple walkthroughs of the house. Hardworking girls! Ugh! During these walks, Aaron alerted to eleven different locations. Any item that Aaron alerted to was sealed in a metal container and sent off to be tested. The CBI also took samples from fuel containers in the garage and sent them to the lab along with a can of a household cleaner called Goofoff. That was found on a shelf in the basement. Goofoff is a multi purpose household cleaner. It was super common apparently. When investigating a fire and trying to find its origin, investigators will look at the walls for soot marks in the shape of a V, which could indicate a lamp catching fire or a candle being knocked over. But when the flashover happened, the living room became one giant charred mess, which erased any obvious signs of origin, which is why they brought in Erin to sniff out accelerants. Hell yeah. God I love frickin' dogs. They're so good at everything. Hello? Hello? The fire chief and the American insurance investigator were completely at a loss for what could have happened. They estimated that only a few moments had passed between the fire igniting and the flash of revent. They came to this conclusion based on what time the first nine one one call came in from a neighbor, which was at two one, and the fire truck arrived six minutes later at two seven. Then pair that with Tim's account of events and they just couldn't figure out how a candle could do all of this so quickly. Yeah. Not knowing what else to do, they called in one of the nation's leading fire investigators, fifty-five year old John DeHon. That's a fun name. It is. To say he was a big deal was an understatement. According to the prosecution, The guy basically wrote the book on fire investigation and had investigated hundreds of fires in his career, working closely with the ATF, and he owned his own private fire forensics company. And we're gonna come back to his findings in a moment, but just remember him. Bro, it's like a series of unfortunate events. my god, it is. Hell yeah. With no clear answer about how the fire started and and evidence still being tested, investigators initially did not want to believe this fire was intentionally set. Okay. But they were starting to have their suspicions. Of Tim. After all, he was the only survivor. And it didn't help that his story kept changing slightly with each retelling he was asked to give in the days and weeks following the fire. In one retelling, he said he'd walk to the garage and return to the living room filled with fire. Originally, he said it was full of smoke. Initially, he said he ran to a bedroom window to get air, but in another retelling, he was lining up his children to get out of the house. According to Derek Graham, who is part of the police homicide investigation team, Tim's story changing was a really big red flag for them in the beginning of the investigation. Yeah. I mean, but it's small details. It's not mm, I feel I those are kind of big details. But also if you look at the fact that Soph Sierra was also now in the room and JJ was at the end of the hallway. I could see him getting all three kids to the bedroom, him falling out that window and JJ now trying to find a different path. Y yeah. Or I could see him saying he had like he was going upstairs to get his children to get them out of the house. Mm-hmm. I'm just saying. It's not like we are suddenly now changing I woke up because of this or I woke up too fli you know what I mean? Like these little details changing. And he's in the hospital recovering when they're talking to him at these different points. Yeah. I still feel like I walked in the living room, there's just smoke is different than I walked in the living room, there's fucking flames. True. That's a pretty distinct difference that you would be able to know even if you're fucking recovering from falling out of a window. Yes. Personally. I was holding Sophia's hand. Okay. You didn't mention the other two now being in there until now. What do you mean? But there's also not a very the other thing I want to say is that there's a lot of deb accounts and a lot of deb version. Finding Tim's accounts and Tim versions, even with a whole whole last trial. Yeah. Is hard. Okay. So I wish I had more specifically exactly his interviews and like each time that they went through to like look at the discrepancies, but I have to put that in here for how they were becoming suspicious. Here's the thing though, Tim and Deb had no idea they were being viewed as suspects, or that there was an entire investigation going on. They knew there was an investigation into how the fire started for insurance purposes, and they had been in contact with the insurance investigator and the company itself, but beyond that, Tim just had a lot of healing to do, and they no longer had a house. They had to figure out how to grieve all of their children and the life they had. Yeah. In fact, the funeral for the children was held in Woodland Park while Tim was still in the hospital in Denver. The hospital approved him leaving for the funeral, but he had to return immediately for care. Since Tim's eyes were still healing from the burns, he was extremely sensitive to sunlight, so he had to wear sunglasses the entire time to protect his eyes during the service. I forgot that he burned his fucking eyes. He singed his corneas. So the smoke and the flames in the living room could actually be different. Yes. Go on. After the service, they headed to the cemetery. Did people bitch about him wearing sunglasses the whole funeral? I knew it. God, I'm like a genius. Go on. After the service, they headed to the cemetery, and Tim actually ended up collapsing on Sierra's grave, and he had to be taken back to the hospital. Like it was too much for him. it was out of emotion that he collapsed, not like too much for him. Okay. Deb couldn't bring herself to a fun to attend the funeral at all. She said that while she was getting ready, her body just gave out on her. She just couldn't handle the thought of having to walk in and see three little caskets. It was too much for her. She wanted everyone to celebrate and remember her precious kids. She wanted this to be about them, not her. So she sat in the car until it was over, and then she went out and thanked people for coming. Just hold on to that because we were going to come back to this. Okay. I will tell you right now, I have listened to Deb dis Deb get asked the question why she didn't attend the funeral, and I have heard her full answer. Okay. It is the most genuine thing you will ever hear. Okay. I it is. the most genuine thing you will ever hear of why she didn't do it. And I had the same reaction until I heard her speak about it herself. Okay. Okay. You can't fake that emotion. Okay. When Tim was released from the hospital, they w Tim him and Deb went to stay in a motel until they could find a rental house. Okay. Tim's burns had to be taken care of. They had to be cleaned multiple times a day and rebandaged. And the only person in the family who could stomach this job was Deb's dad, Doug Baumgartner. So Doug and his wife moved into the hotel with them and helped out with Tim's recovery. Okay. Neither of them could function. Deb and Tim. They definitely weren't on the same grieving page. Tim would want to talk about the kids and remember them, and Deb would be in denial. And then it would switch. All of a sudden, Tim was now in denial and Deb was wanting to talk about the kids. They just couldn't seem to get on the same grief wavelength. And this happens a lot when you lose a child. And pretty soon Deb just She said she eventually got a box of wine, it went on the window sill above her bed, and from the time she woke up to the time she went to sleep she was drinking. What hell yeah. Meanwhile Investigators had determined that the fire had been intentionally set because the samples from the house and the kids' clothing, as well as jeans and sneakers that Tim were wearing that evening before bed, all tested positive for xylenes. For what? Xylenes, which are often found in flammable liquids. If the fire was intentionally set, it was also now a triple homicide. They spent months building a case against Tim and Deb. They conducted hundreds of interviews with neighbors, friends, and family. And at first everyone had nothing but good things to say about Deb and Tim. But as time went on, and they were interviewed again and again and again, the narratives began to get more negative. what do you mean? How does Okay. Yvonne Vadez, a neighbor who also claimed to be a friend of Deb's, at first said that Deb was inconsolable after the fire, crying all the time. But over months it changed to Deb wasn't really upset. And also, did you know that Deb had a meth problem? I beg your finest pardon. Start using some meth to lose some weight. Hey, it worked. Deb lost over a hundred pounds. But Yvonne claimed that Deb eventually ended up with a meth problem costing her about five hundred a week. And this claim became even more damning for Deb when her own mother, Sandra Wilson, backed these claims up to investigators, telling them that Deb and Tim both used drugs and that they were in debt to drug dealers. and that Deb struggled with parenthood and wanted a lifestyle free from the constraints of her children. I wanna add a little something something about Sandra here. Who's a psychologist, by the way. Yes, she is Deb's biological mom, but she abandoned Deb and her five other children during their childhood and didn't pop back up into Deb's life until she was an adult. And even then their relationship was strained and they had just recently reconciled before the fire happened. So so just remember that anytime we talk about Sandra. So, detectives and investigators, they paired all of this info with their views of how Tim and Deb were acting in the immediate aftermath of the fire. There was actually a pretty big opinion that Deb and Tim weren't actually grieving their children at all. What led them to this conclusion, you may ask? Well, for one, apparently Deb showed up to the house to meet with the insurance investigator with a brand new hairdo just a few days after the fire. Not only that, but when she met with him again after that at his office, she was wearing a white tracksuit and her nails were freshly painted red. So clearly she was fine and she just wasn't grieving at all. A white tracksuit in Colorado in March is fucking crazy, by the way. But also, can I tell you something working in a salon? We have I have had multiple clients. We've had a client who recently lost her teenage son. Yeah. We did not think she was showing up for her nail appointment. That was about five days later. She did. It's normalcy. We are normal. We are comfort to her. She knew she was in a safe place. She knew she was in a place where she could just be however she needed to be. Mm-hmm. we have people who Bring in their friend after something happens like this. If you have a longtime hairdresser and you have something like this happens, as a former hairdresser myself, I'm clearing my damn books for you. Period. Because you need your hair shampooed because I know you haven't done it and you don't have the energy to style it right now, and it's gonna make you feel better. so I don't fault Deb for that, but they this was I mean. They faulted her so much for that. Mm-hmm. The funeral. And Tim wearing sunglasses at the funeral meant that he was being deceitful and hiding his true feelings. Because his burn corneas. Because his corneas were singed, but cool. I wanna add on really quick also, like, I know there's jokes out there that like she went through a breakup and she ch completely changed her hair. Like, you don't realize how much your hair holds, like, grief and Anger like it holds so much and when you completely change it, you're releasing so much. And like I have a lot of fucking hair. You know how much you have a lot of hair. And when you chop that shit off, physical weight leaves your body. And it's just like there's just something about it. And like Maybe she was using that for like you said, normalcy. Also her friends, her dad, her stepmom, any of those people could have made that appointment for her and taken her to go do that, knowing it was gonna make her feel better. Just to get it trying to help her of her sitting at a window seal and drinking wine all day every day. So from the very beginning, I never faulted her for that. Yeah. In the industry it is so common. It is it helps when you're in that process. if they were signing up to go on a vacation three weeks later, that's a completely different story. Right. But self care is still a thing. I'm just saying also, like, okay, was the white tracksuit questionable? Maybe Was the red nails cool? But also, we don't know what Sophia or Sierra's favorite color was. We don't know what JJ's favorite color was. Yeah. We don't know if one of them just recently wanted her to paint her nails red. We don't know if one of those little girls had their nails painted red at that time. Or if one of them saw a tracksuit and she was like, You should get that, mommy. Yeah, or yeah, or it was an outfit that was picked up by her daughter, or one of her friends was going through their closet and was like, my god, this is good. But also, if I'm grieving, my ass is not putting on jeans. period. It's March in Colorado. I'm putting on a tracksuit if I got one. Period. And also, this is early 2000s. I bet your ass it was a juicy tracksuit. I bet you and those were comfy. They're still comfy. What do you mean? JCPenney still has them. So, all of this, plus the funeral actions and all that, they were convinced that Deb and Tim intentionally set the fire so they could pay off their drug debts, start a new life without children being in their way. That's crazy. Detectives knew what they had was circumstantial at best. They knew they needed a confession from Tim or Deb about the fire. So detectives decided to call Tim and told him that they had some things from the fire that he needed to pick up at the police station. As soon as Tim left for the police station, Station detectives knocked on the door, talked to Deb. They told her that they needed to speak with her. She was like, Okay. They right off the bat, they said, We think Tim had something to do with the fire. Deb told them they were wrong. They said, Well, we have evidence. She goes, No, you don't. If you think you have evidence, you don't have evidence. Bye. And literally made them leave. Was like, I'm not talking to you. You don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Tim's interview was the same as his interviews in the past. His story was still the same variations, and he maintained his innocence the entire time. Nothing had changed. Without a confession from Tim or Deb, District Attorney Gian Smith refused to file charges in the case, stating that there is no way to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. It was entirely way too circumstantial. But detectives and investigators didn't take that as a no. They just took it as a we have to investigate harder. Why can't other investigators do that sometimes. Right? On cases that really, really deserve it. By the summer of two thousand four, Deb and Tim separated. Their grief was just in two different places and they were constantly fighting. I think one of the straws I read was Deb came home one day and Tim had or Deb walked in the living room and Tim had a hung a picture of the kids in the living room. She fainted. just fainted. It was too much. She had already taken like sh they didn't have pictures up when they put them in her house. Like she just she it was too much. And Tim ended up in a different relationship after this and he had another child. Deb ended up wasn't functioning and she moved back home with her dad actually brought her home and was like, hey. And he said that every single day was the same. Deb woke up and drank. She drank all day and at night he went downstairs with her to her bedroom and sat while she cried herself to sleep. And the next morning it started all over again. Huh. Okay. But these were grandparents who were also grieving their grandchildren as well and trying to help their kid through it. Mm-hmm. So I need you to buckle up for what is about to happen. Yeah. And you're still going. Just in case. In 2005, John Newsom became the new district attorney. I know that name. Not long after he took office, he was urged to take another look at the case by not only investigators, but Sandra as well. Yeah, I'm talking about Deb's own mother. She wrote a letter. To pair with the investigators, plea to Newsome about reopening this case. Dear Mr Royal Hampton. Yes, exactly. With the additional fire evidence that they have been collecting and testing, because you know they never stopped, and the more witness statements, because you know those ones that changed over time. Yeah. I gave you guys a little bit more information early on, but those are the statements that continued to change over the next three years, because we are now in two thousand five, okay? Okay. The case now looked a little bit different. And on july twenty first, two thousand five, a grand jury indicted Tim on the following charges. Three counts of first degree murder relating to the deaths of JJ, Sophia, and Sierra, arson that the house fired deliberately been set, child abuse resulting in death, child abuse a cause, the death of the children. Like negligence for the fire. Attempted theft. This allegation involves attempted insurance related theft because they filed insurance claims. Yeah. Like most of the time your homeowner's servants will like the fire department and the investigations beat you to it half the time. Yeah. Controlled substance offenses. Charges involve being controlled substances, so the meth we've been discussing. Hold up, they found some? Well, they're just they have evidence of it? Or they're just putting in a It's a charge. Okay. Cruelty to animals. This charge involved the family's dog because I haven't told you guys but there was also the family dog that died in the house fire as well. Thank you for not telling me that. it's because it doesn't show up until he gets charges. Like it's not talked about at all until the charges. Tim was arrested later that day while at work and put in jail with put in a jail cell with forty one year old Hiram Church. Let me tell y'all something about Mr. Church here. He has been a jailhouse informant in multiple high profile cases. Obviously, Tim was unaware of this fun little fact. So after a few days of sharing a cell with Tim, Mr. Church had a had a few notes to pass on over to detectives. Funny how that works, huh? I kinda love him though. He claimed that during several conversations, Tim admitted to setting the fire, but he didn't act alone. He said that Deb put him up to it and actually planned it. He said that they intentionally used goof off, spraying it all over the furniture, then having the kids sit on the couch and eat a snack so that the goof off would be all over their clothes. He even gave them a map that Tim drew of the house, and it had where he started the fires at. He even laid out the motive that Temp gave. He claimed that Deb's drug debt had only financially st had not only financially strained them, but their relationship was strained as well. Since that was ending anyway, they figured they could just collect the money, get the kids out of the way, and start fresh. And this seemed to satisfy police because within days of this conversation with Hiram, he was released on a personal recognizance bond and set on his way till his next court date. Hiram was. Mm-hmm. God damn. So on August 8th, 2005, Deb was arrested and charged with the following. Witness tampering. She was accused of trying to intimidate her mother because her mom testified before a grand jury, and according to the Gazette, Deborah allegedly told her mother, I'm going to take you down. Mm-hmm. Sorry. Okay. Felony attempted theft. Prosecutors allege that Deborah attempted to obtain an insurance payment for a vehicle she claimed had been damaged in the fire, although they alleged it hadn't been damaged. Mm-hmm. And drug possession charges. She faced charges involving controlled use of a controlled substance and two counts of possession of a controlled substance. Possession. Yeah. I don't know if they found anything, if they're doing these charges off of Yvonne and Sandra. I don't no one really talks much about the drug charges. I mean, they can't charge possession unless they have possession. So maybe they did find something in the house and it just hasn't been reported on. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. But did you notice there were no murder charges? There were no murder charges for her. Sorry, I just had another thought too. I guarantee you they went to the companies that they have and did an investigation too. Well, I'd be right about that too. But also, like, we will get more into like Okay, I'll just talk about it right now. The whole meth thing right there. Legitimately, lawyers for her nowadays were in the podcast I was talking to you guys about. Yeah. And there is no evidence of her meth. Like, I will talk about that later on. There is no evidence of her having the drug problem, all that. Like Deb admits to doing it at one point to lose weight. That baseline story is correct. Yeah. But her having these big drug debts and having this whole addiction and all this thing, like, we will talk more about the drug use. Wonderful. But the prosecution has spinning its own story with it. That's crazy. Also, you guys, don't use meth as a weight loss drug. No, please. Okay, there's other options out there. I'm already downweight and it's not because of meth. Thank you. So according to a fifty two eighty article, Tim's trial began on March nineteenth, two thousand seven, and it lasted almost six weeks. It included more than twenty prosecution witnesses, including Hiram Church, the jail informant. The fire investigator John Dehahn, and Tom Noodle, a CBI chemist, who'd reviewed burned samples found in the house. Noodle testified that samples initially identified by Aaron, the CBI's dog, were positive for xylenes. Tests of the burn material also suggested that Goofoff could have been used as an accelerator. It would make sense if they really if the living room was actually sprayed, why it but the goof off was the fire accelerant and he had the kids sit on the couch to get the goof off on their clothes. Yeah. But if you remember in the autopsies, everything was affected by the fire inside except for the kids' pajamas. That's true. It was just sit. Around the pajamas. Every s area except the pajamas. So it didn't And J J received burns on his body. And the girls had radiant burns. Yeah. So if the goal was for the kids to catch on fire, how come their clothing was fine? Yeah. That wouldn't make sense. Clothing is so flammable. But also fun fine fun fact, I didn't have my kid until twenty thirteen. So this is twenty two thousand three, this ten years before. And I had never noticed this so I had a kid. When you notice go go in the kids clothing section next time you're at Walmart or Target. Look on the pajamas. There will be a yellow tag on it and it will say fire resistant or f like that. They now are making children's pajamas to be more fire resistant because of house fires occurring at night. Holy shit. Yeah, I something I did not notice until I had a younger kid and buying pajamas, but there is a tag on some clothing. Crazy. Right? Like who like way to have that thought. So Schmidt, the Condor Springs Fire Department investigator, described the char pattern he saw at the bottom of the living room stairs, which to him indicated an accelerant had been used to speed the spread of the fire. The CBI canine handler Talked about the reliability of his dog, which Noodle reinforced, claiming that jur claiming to jurors that the canine sense of smell was more sensitive than the CBI's own analytic devices. Sandra? Portrayed a marriage derailed by drug abuse and Deb's immaturity. Damn. Church testified so mean to her daughter. Right? God. Hiram Church testified that Tim had told him about spraying the goof off and that the couple hoped to collect an insurance payout. Although in a court filing, a second inmate did say that Church had bragged about the jailhouse confession being his get out of free jail card. But that's not talked a lot about in trial. John Dehan testified the fire burned too hot and too fast to match Tim's recreation of the events, and Deb's claim that a candle could have started the blaze. Using thermal estimates based on the room's size plus the location, sizes and distance between furniture, Dahan said it would have been impossible for a single fire in the room to move to nearby pieces of furniture. Like that quickly in that amount of time and burn that hot. Like normally, without an accelerant type situation. Okay. Tim's defense relied heavily on John Lantini, a fire expert from Florida who routinely squared off against John Dehan in court. Amazing. Like, she's gonna lose her mind over here. She had just literally made a joke. It's a heated rivalry, guys. Listen, John Lantini is this man will pop up out of nowhere to go tell John Dahan to fuck himself over something. Nancy Grace coming out of her grave to tell Casey Anthony to go fuck herself. Like legitimately, this man will pop up any time, any day to tell him no, you wrong. All right. So that was good. Lentini portrayed Dehan's work as incomplete at best. And added that the CBI's chemists misidentified compounds and burnt items analyzed from the house, and that fire investigators misread the scene entirely. Not only that, but it was impossible to confirm the CBI arson's dog's arson dog's accurate. Okay. But no matter how hard Lantini fought. On May 1, 2007, four years after the fire, a jury found Tim guilty on more than a dozen counts, including three charges of first degree murder, child abuse resulting in death, and animal cruelty involving the dog. But the jury found that Tim was innocent of conspiring with his wife to kill their children. He was sentenced to three consecutive life terms and sent to the Sterling Correctional Facility in eastern Colorado. Interesting. Okay. Seven months after a jury found Tim not guilty of conspiring with his wife, on November twenty-eighth, two thousand seven, Deb was indicted on the following charges: three counts of first-degree murder, three counts of first-degree murder for a child under twelve, three counts of child abuse resulting in death. Deb was then held without bond, and these charges were merged with her previous charges, making it one big case. Yeah. Ugh, I'm Deb's dad and stepmom rallied behind her like they had with Tim, believing their innocence fully. Unfortunately, Deb's mom Sandra had gotten to Deb's siblings and some of the family, and they had turned on her believing she was guilty. Sandra Nonetheless, Deb maintained her innocence. Period, Queen. And her trial officially began October twenty first of two thousand eight. Okay. Once again, I'm gonna go back to the fifty-two eighty article because they just lay out the trial so nicely in here with the core evidence. Prosecutors relied on testimony from Sandra in the jailhouse. Does she even live here? Ew. away. So they relied heavily on Sandra and Hiram Church's testimony to link Deb to the conspiracy to kill three children and burn the house on for money. The American family insurance investigator testified about Deb's red fingernails and that white tracksuit and her brand new hairdo. Yvonne Valdez, the neighbor and former friend of Deb's, detailed Deb's meth use. A police investigator who'd interviewed Deb's hours after the fire recalled that she'd acted she acted like she was crying, but there were no tears. Who? Who said this? one of the police officers. And actually Deb responded to that specific part of the police investigation in that podcast. Yeah. And she goes, Yeah, I saw his notes. How she goes, I couldn't even remember how to breathe or stand up or think. I I I couldn't even remember how to exist. And they're telling me I wasn't crying pro properly, I wasn't acting correctly. She goes, I couldn't even figure out how to stand. Yeah. Sandra testified that her daughter didn't attend the funeral and that her son in law wore sunglasses during the service, and that she'd watched her daughter go through the death of her second born son, Spencer, and how she was inconsolable and cried for days. After her three children died, Sandra said she never once saw Deb cry. Sandra. In addition to witness statements, pro the prosecutors relied on the same fire science used at Tim's trial. The exact same thing. And again, John Dehan connected all the dots for the jury. Okay. Their case against Deb was not very different from the case against Tim. We just added in Deb not attending the funeral. Yeah. Her appearance afterwards. All of that. And also like they really held against her the fact that she drove a white Camaro and was like and she like showed up in her white Camaro. Bitch, it's her car. What is she expected to drive? If anyone ever talks shit about me driving a blue Toyota, please punch them. Doesn't matter. Doesn't even matter. What do you mean? Like it's too flashy. Like was she supposed to go trade that in and get like a Honda like and get like a ninety two Honda Civic as a beater? Like what do we want? She had she had that card before. Yeah. Hello. So it wasn't like the thing is though, if she would have gone to trade it in or something like that, they would have been like she got herself a new car with the insurance money. Yeah, and so that's the thing, it's like she didn't even buy the car with the insurance money. She already had this car. Yeah, that would be completely different. But this was her car before go on. Yeah. Go on. The assistant district attorney, Amy Mulaney. Told jurors in her closing arguments, we know what JJ of Sophia and Sierra had become. Impediments, chores, responsibilities that she just couldn't handle anymore. Before ending with, this is not a case about poor helpless Deb Nichols, who through no fault of her own having a part in this is ending up in a in the chair in which we now see her sitting. It's not a case about a woman through no decision of her own being whisked up by the hand of fate and plucked back down in the middle of a drug and partying lifestyle. It's not a case about a horrible accident. This is a case about meth, about money, and about murder and cold blood. Jesus Christ. Right? Deb's trial ended on November twenty fourth, two thousand eight, when the jury returned a verdict of guilty on all charges. That's wild. Deb was then sentenced to three consecutive life sentences for the murders, plus twenty four years for conspiracy and additional one year sentences for attempted theft, drug use, and drug possession. Okay. I will say really quick, just because I it did bother me when we were showing each other pictures. I don't like that she was smiling in her mugshots. Yeah. I I even when you were showing me that you're not showing smiling. Yeah, that kind I did say that before we even started. You did. Immediately after their trials, both Tim and Deb filed appeal appeals, arguing that prosecutors improperly applied the available fire science and relied on an unreliable jailhouse informant in their cases. Both of their appeals were rejected by the Colorado Supreme Court. But this didn't stop Interesting 'cause the appellate courts here decide to turn over other people who have done worse. I'm actually gonna tell you here in a second exactly what was said to Tim at one point and keep that energy for it. Energy is kept. But the Supreme Court, usually the last stop for an appeal. Like once the Supreme Court tells you no, you're you're done, right? Essentially. So this didn't stop Tim and Deb, you know, kind of like it didn't stop the investigators back in the day. Okay. For the next eleven years, they tried to figure out anything and everything. Tim worked with his lawyers to prove through fire science that the prosecution had it wrong. Meanwhile, Deb and her dad, Doug, were on the phone every single day and Doug was taking notes. They were doing their own research into other cases where fire science had it wrong. And to Doug's surprise, there was a name that kept popping up in some of these cases. John DeWan. John DeHon. That's his name. In 2013, a judge basically told Tim that a new science wasn't compelling enough because science is constantly evolving in all fields, and not enough time had passed for a major development to happen. Now, if it were DNA or a fingerprint, that would be a showstopper, he said. So he denied Tim's appeal. That was that was the last Supreme Court denial for Tim was in 2013, and that's why it was denied. So because it wasn't DNA or a fingerprint. Yep. And f science has evolved and something and a an evolution that's only five to ten years old isn't enough. Now if this was a twenty or thirty year one, maybe. But it wasn't a showstopper like DNA or fingerprint. He literally said, Now if it was a DNA, that would be a show stopper. Ew, go on. So if they found something new with the science, it had to be a big deal, right? Okay. So let's fast forward to two thousand nineteen. Hell yeah. Tim's lawyer called Deb's lawyer up with some really exciting news. The Corey Wise Innocent Project at the University of Colorado Law School was evaluating cases that have a strong non DNA evidence as the backbone for an appeal. We have a law school here? Yeah. Boulder? Yeah. Hell yeah. If that makes sense. And Tim's lawyer actually thinks Deb's case would be a better fit than Tim's case. And turns out the Corey Wise Innocence Project thought the same thing. They immediately began helping Deb and her team form an appeal, starting with the prosecution star witness, Dahan, and his testimony. And honestly, that was a really great place to start considering the fact that in 2015, the American Academy of Forensic Sciences issued a 26-page report. That recommended Dahan and I quote, be expelled from membership for acting unethically by inaccurately bolstering his own conclusions and testimony. End quote. The report added that Dahan's conduct dilutes the public's confidence in the honesty and integrity of forensic scientists and the community as a whole, and perverts our system of justice. Dahan resigned from the organization. Even after all of that, he Fully backed his testimony in Tim and Deb's trial, standing by his original findings until his dying day, which was in May of 2022. And five months later, Deb's attorneys filed the 35C motion, which is essentially a way for someone who has already been convicted to ask the court to look whether their conviction should should stand because of constitutional or legal problems within the original case. This is Deb's way to. into an appeal after all of her appeals have been exhausted. Interesting. Okay. I just think it's really funny that they filed this literally five months after Homeboy died. So in this motion, this thirty five C motion, Deb's lawyers laid out why they believed Deb's conviction should be overturned and given a new trial. Her lawyers believed that prosecutors at Deb's trial had swayed the jury with a barrage of misinformation and misdirection. Even the most basic motive that Tim and Deb killed their children for an insurance payout fell apart when the facts were laid out appropriately. Not only did the couple not have life insurance for their children, they'd also secured a $28,000 home equity line of credit to fund improvements to their home before the fire. The house had new appliances, a new furnace, new carpeting, and an entirely renovated backyard that included an enormous play area for the children. At most, Deb's attorneys estimated that the nickels would have gotten ten thousand dollars beyond the replacement value of their home if the house burned in an accidental fire. Okay. Deb's attorneys also Guess what? That wouldn't have gotten her a Camaro. It w I mean she already had a Camaro. It wouldn't have got here's five thousand dollars apiece, go start your new life. See you later. Good luck. Deb's attorneys also considered the purposeful misdirection of evidence that was allowed in the original trials, which they claim was a like sleight of hand tactic used to confuse jurors. Okay. There was no evidence, for example, that Deb's Matthews ran her afoul of drug dealers. There was also no proof that Deb was spending five hundred dollars a week on Mathis, her former neighbor, once suggested. Yes, there was evidence of Matthews and all that, but it's not the large thing that Everyone's Investigators made it out to be. I guarantee you, okay. So there's enough people in the prison system that likes to snitch, including meth users and drug dealers, and I guarantee one of them probably would have snitched on her. Exactly. And Yvonne's the only source that they can find for supplying this to her. no, Sandra. They didn't find anything else. Wait well yeah. No, like Yvonne was where she was getting it, but Sandra was the only other person who was like, Yeah, that's a thing. But she's in so much debt to these drug dealers. What do you mean? Yes. Maybe most critically, prosecutors relied heavily on the CBI chemist testimony involving xylines and Goofoff, but failed to mention that the American Family Insurance Insurance's laboratory results didn't find accelerants in tests. Furthermore, Deb's 35C motion required that the CBI undertake an investigation of its own data in 2023. That examination revealed a consequential finding. Although xylenes had been found during the initial fire investigation, the CBI said they may not have been the byproduct of Goof Off. But instead, the report said that contrary to a long held belief by fire investigators, the xylenes could have produced simply by objects burning at a very high temperature. Put another way, the presence of xylenes was insufficient evidence to conclude that the fire had been purposely slit. But because the goof off had specifically been mentioned, the connection was made. But the findings that it could have been unrelated and was an unreliable verification of Accelerant was hidden from the defense. So the prosecution chose to hide the reports and act like they didn't exist that said that the xylenes were not definitive proof of this. The only person who was definitively relying on this was John DeHon, and we have one more CBI person we'll talk about him in a second. Okay. If the CBI's new testing couldn't confirm the use of an accelerant, then Goofhoff couldn't be proven to have been used to start the fire. The lack of Goof off in turn cast doubt on the jailhouse informant. Who claimed Tim told him the product was used in the fire, which ultimately tied Deb to the conspiracy to burn the house down and kill the children. Mm-hmm. I have so many questions that I shouldn't ask. Further, investigators didn't collect a sample of unburned carpet found under a destroyed bookcase, which could have been tested to see if its chemical release matched the rest of the burned samples. Authorities also didn't collect a living room lamp, which investigators noticed had a frayed cord, but didn't investigate further. Investigators testified that Erin, the CBI's canine, was extremely reliable. The investigative team also often repeated that the dog's ability to sniff out accelerants can exceed laboratory testing capabilities. Deb's defense argues in a supplement to its original 35C that only a few of the canine alerts in the house yielded a confirmation in laboratory testing. And even in those positive cases, trained canines cannot distinguish between hydrocarbons in ignitable liquids and hydrocarbons that exist at any fire scene when furniture and other items decompose at high temperatures. Additionally, the attorneys argue investigators were swayed by Aaron's alert and built an arson case in large part based on the dogs worked. In fact, NFPA 921 declares that canine alerts are speculative and should not be offered as direct or circumstantial evidence of presence of an ignitable liquid in a criminal or civil trial. So the entire canine findings legally should have never been allowed in the trial. Damn. Because the science is not backed enough for it to belong in a trial. Interesting. How does that work with cadaver dogs then? It's only for fire sciences. It cannot the cause a cadaver dog and the accelerator, it's not the same training. These are two different alerts, two different trainings. Interesting. Interesting same thing with a bomb sniffing dog and a drug sniffing dog, because those are two different we're training for two different things. This is wild. Okay. Following his initial investigation, the American family insurance investigator claimed he'd performed his own tests involving candles and the spread of the fire, which he said debunked the candle theory. Yeah. But at Deb's trial, he admitted that he hadn't recorded any of the tests and couldn't prove they'd actually been performed. So after years of hearings and motions and filings, on April twenty eighth, twenty twenty six The court found that prosecutors suppressed scientific evidence that could have affected the jury's verdict. But it took until August first for the court to officially vacate Deborah's conviction. Now, this doesn't mean that Deborah gets just walk free. No. She's still currently in the El Paso County jail, but her team has motioned for her to be released on bond. The judge is considering it and her next hearing is set for October thirteenth. So that would have been a week from the time you're hearing this. So make sure you go and check socials to see what has happened with that. 'cause we will have it posted there. There is also at that hearing there is expected to be further testimony from the lead investigator on the case. Okay. at her other hearings with they obviously have had testimony from people because we're going through this. I want to make something really clear though. Deb's conviction was vacated due to a Brady violation. It doesn't automatically mean they are deeming the fire scene one way or another yet. It just means that she didn't get a fair trial, so she deserves to get a fair trial. So where the case goes from here depends on the prosecution's appeal of her conviction being vacated. If they win that, then she's just still in her thirty her three life sentences. Mhm. But if the conviction being vacated stands, which I believe it will, we're gonna head to a new trial. Yeah. So, before we get into our victims and other things, I got some questions for you. What do you think happened? Do you think that this is a this is an accident that police are trying to make into a case? Do you think this was something that was planned? I wanna know what you think happened because I had a moment of realization while I was writing s I had a moment of realization once I heard Tim's version of events. Mm-hmm. And keep in mind he's a contractor. So I wanna know what you think, and then I have something that has not been brought up at all in anything. Okay. I I don't know. I've been trying to play devil's advocate on both sides here. Mm-hmm. Like I've been trying. I don't personally feel that they planned this. I don't think they orchestrated this in any way, shape, or form. very specifically if Tim was genuinely part of orchestrating this, he also would not have been in that house. yeah, the other thing is with the prosecution, they they extremely downplayed his injuries and made it seem like he was it was just a couple like surface skin burns. It was it was just a couple of surface burns. It wasn't he was he was only burned over ten percent of his body and it really wasn't that bad. But yet his corneas were singed and he like had band like it's just They really downplay his injuries. I like I've followed some other like arson cases, things like that, that have led to something like this. And every single one of them have made sure they are not in that fucking house. Yeah. Like he's literally putting himself in a line. Fire fire. Damn. Sorry. But literally putting himself in that situation and like fires are so unpredictable. Yes. Like there was there's no way, you know? I don't know. I I just I don't think that they did this, especially 'cause there was zero payout. Genuinely there was zero payout. There was kind of they didn't even have insurance policies on the kids. Exactly. Like when something like this generally happens it's for monetary purposes and there was literally none. Yeah, and you wanna know how the prosecution explained away the fact that the kids didn't have life insurance policies on they used that How they like countered that was Deb was really mad and had something to say when she found out that the kids weren't covered separately under underneath the homeowners insurance or something like that. And I was like, if they planned this, wouldn't they have like made sure that was something that was already in place before this happened? If you look back through any case that has is because of insurance purposes, like monetary games It happens like they check that two months before, yeah. Like they make sure names are on there properly, how much it's gonna be. What do you mean? What do you mean? You know? Like there's no fucking way. Like I I personally don't think that they if they were having problems within their own marriage and everything, I feel like It would have been brought up sooner than months later, like in all these people changing their stories all of a sudden. Yeah, and I feel like the people changing their stories is one of them's a fucking meth addict. Well, the thing is like I didn't put a good timeline because there isn't really a good timeline of like over the years. Because like this is investigated over years. Like we really don't get the arrests on Tim until two thousand five. But I had to put in like what the main base of those stories were because they went back and interviewed these same people over and over again over the years. And so I feel like with whatever narrative or new thing they had coming in They were like, what about this? Yeah. You know, so it's just one of those things that I'm just like, it's very important to remember that these accounts of them were all good and they were grieving all of this, but then it turned into something different that matched their case. Yeah, that's crazy. And I guarantee they probably started like, did you ever see them fight? Do you ever see them do drugs? Yeah. Alright, Judge Judy, calm down. I love you, Judge Judy. And I feel like they just got to Sandra and like found out how easy it was for the her to just run with whatever they were giving her, you know? She's just a spiteful woman and I hope she goes to bed and her pillow's always hot. I hope that when she is she dead? Yeah. Do you remember when I said the other grave over there? I assume. She's buried next to the kids and her headstone says best grip. Or like most amazing grandma or something like that. Who fucking did that? I don't know. Okay. So do you wanna hear about the thought that I had while writing this? Yeah, I do. I do. Okay. So let's go back to the fact that Tim owned a construction place. Tim had also been doing upgrades to this house and everything else. yeah. That was my other thing. I'm sorry. Why would they build this huge play area in their yard and buy a new furnace, get new carpeting, all of this. Why would they do all of that if they're literally gonna build within like the months leading up to it? Okay, I'm not can I play devil's advocate on part of that really quick? Have a higher value for the house. Mm-hmm. Except for the play area. They wouldn't have done the play area. They would have done anything else in the house. Yeah, it's outside. Something because the play area if you're Literally trying to plan on killing your kids. Why would you make a play area for them? Well, and then also we have to go with the fact that like the goof off putting it on the clothes is like their main thing, but yet the kids died from smoke and elation. Yeah. So like you would think that the accelerant would they would have also done an accelerant upstair. You know what I mean? Yeah. So here's where I went. Tim was startled awake in the middle of night. Okay. When you're a parent and you're you're used to having two parents in the house and there's one parent in the house, depending no matter if you're a heavy sleeper or not, you you kind of start to get a little bit lighter of a sleeper because you're the one who has to be awake. Here, right? Yeah, yeah. My first thought was Tim went to the top. He could feel the house was warm. Yeah. He felt it was warm. He didn't see any flames. There wasn't any smoke yet. The fish tank light was out. The stove light was out. The neighbor's house was fine. Yeah. fire investigators believed that. Tim opened the exterior garage door to allow oxygen in the house, which was the big burst flashover, which is how the window bar bursts out because the fire was starving for oxygen. And when he opened it, the whoosh is what made it happen. Okay. My first thought was after looking at more the like as soon as I saw because I'd done all of this, a lot of this before I finally found Tim's version of events. And when the lights and then when he went to the circuit breaker, it was an electrical fire. The fire started in the walls. And I have experience with electrical fire. I was working at Who Hot and all of a sudden I was putting stuff in the dish pit and I looked over and I'm all the wall's smoking. And my manager went, What? And I was like, look, the wall is smoking. And he goes, my god, there's a fire in there. We had an electrical fire inside the wall. And there's like a little bit of smoke coming out the outlet. So this that was one of my first thoughts. Think about it. So when he went to go flip the breaker Mm-hmm. He could have made that spark, which is what, and then with the exterior door and it all came together. The oxygen coming out oxygen, yes. And now fire lit. You guys, fire cannot survive unless it has oxygen. And it also blew out the front window because it was being starved from oxygen. So I guarantee you when he opened that door, that oxygen came in, which caused that burst out. So I would assume that when he ran back in, yes, he had a lot of smoke. But I would say in him Going up those stairs, finding the stairs, is when that burst happened out the front of the house, caused all the flames, so he did see flames. Mm-hmm. And then he was going upstairs. The bursting of like that power is what made the it collapse because we didn't have fire upstairs yet. And if the fire was in the walls, that's what's making it weak. The radiant thermal burns and JG being in the like I it was I don't know why, but electrical fire all of a sudden hit me. That combined with him tripping the breaker and all of that. And also you wouldn't have any patterns in the house from a lamp or something if the fire was in the wall. We also had the frayed cord, which could have caused the electrical fire in there. Mm-hmm. I personally believe this was an electrical fire. That makes a lot of sense. Also with all the work that they're having done, if they ended up having an electrician coming at like come in who owns a contracting business. He does framing and housework like that. I guarantee you he either was doing it himself, pulling the permits himself and doing it, or one of his contractor buddies who's also an electrician or something, was pulling permits and doing it with him. And I can tell you I know from fact just 'cause I That's who I am as a person. When you're working with a friend, sometimes you forget shit because you guys start talking and chatting and like having a things it happens sometimes. I I guarantee there's permits pulled for it. They were doing this on a like permitted professional level. But you're still like DIYing with your buddy and stuff like that. And so that is in writing this, that is where I saw their innocence. Because if it was a candle It would have had patterns of He would have had flames already down there. But an electrical fire would have already had that heat that was brewing that made that flashover event happen so fast. The second oxygen was added into the second oxygen was added into it. And so that explains how it happened so quickly. Yeah. Also on top of that, DeHon and I think I think it was Dehan and Latini or DeHon and the American insurance guy. Here's a cool fun thing I learned researching this. Hotels in Vegas. Before they Demolish those? Yeah. Do you know what they use them for? Fire tests. They went in order to learn fire patterns and things like that, they will have they will take ten rooms, okay? And they will have an accelerant start at different points in the room. They will burn it, light the room up, get the fire out. Then they will bring in a group of new fire investigators or training or whatever and say, Find the origin of the fire. That's really fucking smart. So they did this, and out of 53 fire investigators, only three were correct in the first room. In the second room, once again, only three were correct. Different three this time, though. Fire science is a very, very large guessing profession. Yeah. most of the time people cannot agree. you can disprove things or things can be different and you don't know the exact conditions before the fire started. Yeah. And when you have a flashover, it has been proven again and again that you cannot find an accelerant or an origin point unless it is a very, very strong accelerant path that you can find throughout the rest of the house or the rest of wherever this fire is. So there's a lot of things that were pushed aside to fit their narrative. Interesting. But does this also explain why Deb's case was better than Tim's case was for this? Because Deb's The only difference is she wasn't there. Yes, she wasn't there and the jail informant was just bringing like That is like one of the main things. It's a lot easier 'cause Tim was in the jail cell. Tim supposedly told him Tim was at the house. So it's a lot harder for him to get this moved over, but for Deb's case it's easier. That's fair. My my thought also with the jail informant, I was gonna bring this up later earlier in the yeah, he's also since been deemed unreliable and uncredible, and he actually has had issues with some of his testimonies and other high profile investigations since. his thing. So he has very much since been deemed as lying his ass off. Valid. So the one thing I was gonna mention with him is how he knew some of this information. was it Tim actually being like, Yeah, I sprayed goo what is it called? Goof off. Goof off like everywhere or did the police say give him to talk about goof off. yeah, everything that he gave them was exact anchor points of their investigation that they took to trial. He fed this information to To try to turn things around and then like in his head, because you had another. They intentionally put him in that jail cell. absolutely. But I'm just saying, like, and then another inmate said, this is my So I'm just saying, like, what if he this never happened? 'Cause like you have to hear this shit or record like Tim Tim stands ten toes down that he never had this conversation with real church. Don't doubt that. 'Cause he j he gets freshly put into a jail cell and starts singing. Yeah, and immediately starts singing. Like within days, within like a day or two. Right. He's passing notes to detectives about this. Like it was within a week or so of him being in jail that he was released and they were like, thank you so much for your hard work. It makes so much sense. Hello? Okay. So another thing with their overturning is that they actually have found emails of the prosecution knowing that they're hiding evidence and leaving evidence out from the C BI. That's crazy. And they found an email with one of the C BI guys who was like, Yeah, I legitimately had I like was already informed about the goof off, which is why I made the connection. if I didn't know about the goof off, I never would have said that this was an accelerant fire. Hmm. Yeah. And they haven't emails. So that's where the big Brady violation comes into play. Crazy shit. Okay. So talking about our victims, obviously are the Nichols children. JJ, Sierra, and Sophia. But also, in my eyes, and I don't know about yours or your guys's, Deb and Tim are also victims in this as well. And A lot of the episodes I have, or a lot of the information is all from Depp's point of view, like I've told you guys. And it's it's because she's she's done interviews on podcasts. The Cory Wise Innocence Project has her case. I get that. But I want to read you all the one and only interview I have with Tim. Okay. 5280 magazine. They did phenomenal with this, by the way. They did a whole spread on it in 2023. And it says, Tim is now fifty-seven. So this was three years ago, he's 60 now. He's built sets for prison theatrical productions and trains dogs. So far, he spent more than a third of his life in prison hanging around people that he probably wouldn't have picked in his regular life. He said in a phone call from the Australian Correctional Facility that he talks to his mother and stepfather regularly. They're keeping a room in their Woodland Park Town home for him. And he often thinks about his kids. He thinks about the old neighborhood and how their house was the couple's first real home. stating that they upgraded pretty much everything new windows, new doors, new carpeting, kitchen cabinets. They put in a sprinkler system. Tim built a sandpit. He had just finished building a sandpit for the kids. He redid the deck and he built miniature playhouses. They just made it a nice home where they wanted to be forever. Yeah. JJ would be thirty one now. Sierra'd be twenty four and Sophia twenty six. my gosh. But add three years to that. J J would have been thirty four. He's our age? He's our age. I kinda did the math. He was born in ninety one. my God. Okay. Tim thinks about fishing trips with J J and how the two would visit comic book stores together. Well, you would have, probably. He talked about their visits to comic book stores and how they loved comic books. He thinks about Sierra, his daddy's girl. He remembers Sophia. He was at her elementary school one day talking with someone when he noticed his daughter disappeared. He looked everywhere for her and finally found her with a friend. A little boy had scraped his knee, and there she was talking to him, occupying this kid's mind, so he wouldn't think about his knee hurting until an adult got there. It's just so awesome to think about the amazing souls that his kids had. Mm-hmm. But the fire still occupies his thoughts. Tim remembers climbing back up the stairs to the hallway, the smoke just following him, saying it was just filling every available space. And then he opens the window, there's smoke bubbling past his head, and then the next thing he's waking up outside, and he can't remember anything else to this day, and it kills him. it's a reoccurring nightmare that he can't wake up from. Mm. He couldn't do enough to save them. Deb and Tim did eventually divorce while in prison and they were serving their sentences. But they had stayed married through the trials and everything for the obvious of not having to testify against each other. It was actually suggested to them by their lawyers because even though they had separated and Tim had that other relationship and all that, they were still legally married. Yeah. Well, I mean smart. Yeah. But even though they divorced, they still kept in contact, writing each other's letters, sharing their hope for freedom one day, and also helping to get each other's names cleared. Yeah. They didn't divorce each other because they hate each other. No. They divorced each other because it just they couldn't figure out how to be together after this. After it. Yes. And Deb says she thinks of her children often and is thankful for the support of her family and Even her mother who passed away years ago. And since her mom passed away, her siblings have come back around and so have other family members. And they have apologized for believing Sandra over her and are fully supportive of her now. Good. I feel like Sandra was just like a spiteful, manipulative, I think that like honestly she couldn't handle seeing her daughter being in a happy loving marriage and being a s thriving mom and being able to handle things she couldn't. So Tim and Dev have spent decades in prison fighting for their innocence. And their fight isn't over yet, but they are getting closer to the finish line. Now Tim's case is Tim's conviction still stands. Yeah. hopefully with Deb's conviction getting overturned, we can overturn Tim's conviction because we can use it as a fight for him as well. Tim and Deb went through the worst day of their life and then it got worse. Mm-hmm. It continued to worse out. It continued. I couldn't imagine trying to figure out how to grieve all three of my children in the entire world and life that I had, and on top of that be accused of being the one who did it. Yeah. So jury, I have some questions for you. Do you think Deb and Tim are innocent or guilty? Do you think the police had tunnel vision from the very beginning that they just refused to let go? And what the fuck do you think is up with Sandra's weird vendetta against Deb? Because it's just weird to me. It's so weird to me that that question is in here. It's just weird. Yeah. Yeah. But for those of you who are not familiar with the Corey Wise Innocence Project, I just want to tell you a little bit about it because I didn't say it earlier in there, and I will definitely have a link for you to check them out below. So, the organization is named for Corey Wise, one of the five men wrongfully convicted in the Central Park Jogger case. He spent more than eleven years in prison before his conviction was overturned. McCoryWise Innocence Project is part of the University of Colorado Boulders Law School. It provides free legal and investigative services to people in Colorado prisons who maintain their factual innocence, while also working to prevent future wrongful convictions. Its work focuses on examining the evidence, investigating potential wrongful convictions, and pursuing justice through the legal system. So, like I said, I will have that link below to learn more, to partner with them, to help them, whatever you feel like doing. it's just really cool. Yeah. And for an innocence project to take up a case, there's there's gotta be some factual evidence that you are innocent. Yeah. So that is also another big driving force behind scenes. So it's just isn't it just interesting? Very. Hmm. Interesting, interesting. I think this is the first like retrial that I like I could get excited and get behind because it's actually like it's evidence. Yeah. It is evidence based, not a judge fucking up, not a jury, not the prosecution. I mean the prosecution did fuck up, but like a law, like legitimately, legally, evidence wise. Yeah. There is it they were wrong. Yeah. They they were wrong and they hid evidence. Mm-hmm. So God damn. That's that's all I got for ya. That's crazy. But we'll keep a close eye on this. like I said, Deb has a court date that just passed on the 13th. so we will definitely have that info up on there. If anything like major massive happens, like she gets granted bail or any of that. We might add in a little clip right here for you guys. but if not, check out our socials for all that updated information. Don't forget to buy your ticket for painting with a twist. Next week. So excited. I'm so excited. It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good, it's gonna be great. Good, good, good. make sure you're following, like, subscribed. everywhere Justice For Podcast check out our website check out our merch yeah do you got anything else I don't think so man I think I'm good I do have one thing. Stop fucking killing each other. Lock your damn doors. Stop leaving your fucking friends. And we'll see you guys next week with an all new episode. Okay. Love you. Bye.