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Secondary ticketing websites vs touts, how music metadata works · The Price of Music

• 0:07
  Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, the show that looks at
• 0:10
  the money behind the music industry.
• 0:12
  With me, Steve Lemack and Music Allies Head of Insight, Stuart
• 0:15
  Dredge. It is time to deal in this
• 0:18
  episode with some more questions from our listeners.
• 0:21
  Thank you very much to everyone who's been in touch.
• 0:24
  Without further ado, let's start with this one from John Hayden,
• 0:28
  who says your chat about secondary ticketing websites and
• 0:32
  the flotation of StubHub got me thinking about a question I've
• 0:35
  always asked myself, but never found out the answer to.
• 0:39
  How are these websites allowed to act with impunity when your
• 0:43
  traditional tout outside a venue could be arrested for selling
• 0:47
  tickets legally above face value?
• 0:50
  For me, this is exactly the same thing.
• 0:52
  And in fact, I would imagine that these websites per ticket
• 0:56
  actually sell tickets at a much higher price than the dodgy guy
• 1:01
  outside a venue. This turns out to be.
• 1:03
  It's more, it's a slightly more grey area than I than I than I
• 1:07
  thought because I, I just assumed that yeah, your ticket
• 1:11
  out gets nicked. Meanwhile, the websites carry on
• 1:16
  partly because they're they're, I suppose they're, they're
• 1:20
  trying to be perceived as just being portals for other people
• 1:23
  to sell their tickets. Is that about right?
• 1:26
  But it's not that actually. Well, that's part of it.
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  But yeah, I mean, so I went to the the Fanfare Alliance.
• 1:31
  So they're, they're the body that have been campaigning for
• 1:33
  reform of secondary ticketing and they've got a really good
• 1:36
  explainer and it explains, yeah, reselling music tickets isn't
• 1:39
  actually illegal in the UK. It is in countries like France
• 1:43
  and Norway, it says. But actually in the UK you can't
• 1:46
  resell football tickets. That's been banned since 1994.
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  But it's not against the law to resell live music tickets for
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  profit. What you can't do is you can't
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  use software, you can't use a bot to buy loads of tickets to
• 2:00
  sell, and you can't buy tickets using multiple identities.
• 2:05
  But in terms of just getting a ticket and selling it to someone
• 2:08
  else more money, that's not technically illegal.
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  And in a way, I mean, I think a lot of us have been in a
• 2:13
  situation where we've bought a ticket, couldn't go, and we've
• 2:14
  sold it to a friend for face value.
• 2:17
  So reselling not being illegal is quite good for us in that
• 2:20
  sense. We haven't committed a small
• 2:21
  crime. But yeah.
• 2:23
  But the other aspect of this is StubHub via Gogo, these
• 2:25
  secondary sites, they're also, they are providing a platform
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  for other people to sell tickets rather than buying and ticks
• 2:31
  themselves and selling them on. So there's that kind of argument
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  about them being just the, the, the middle man.
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  So the issues around it, where I think it's talked of being
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  controversial, I think it comes partly from when the prices are
• 2:43
  massively inflated. It comes also from when you
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  search for tickets and the first thing you find is a secondary
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  ticket selling them for loads of money rather than primary
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  ticket. It's when they're misleading if
• 2:54
  someone, some people might go on video, go and sell tickets they
• 2:57
  haven't actually bought yet. So it's speculative secondary
• 3:00
  ticketing that's bad and even fraudulent.
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  You know, someone sells you a ticket that actually isn't a
• 3:06
  ticket at all and you don't get in.
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  So there's all kinds of problems, but those problems
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  aren't as such the reason why it's illegal.
• 3:14
  Well, you know, they don't make it legal.
• 3:17
  So what's happened? I mean, you've you've probably
• 3:18
  seen this more than I have, but there have been efforts to kind
• 3:21
  of crack down this from the music industry rather than for
• 3:24
  the law. So some promoted of when they've
• 3:26
  seen a ticket being sold on secretary site, they've
• 3:28
  cancelled it. Was it Ed Sheeran gigs?
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  There was one where there was a ticket amnesty where you could
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  take the tickets you bought from Viagogo and you could buy a new
• 3:35
  ticket and still get into the gig because you wouldn't get in
• 3:37
  with the one you bought on secondary site.
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  So a lot of the action so far has not been police taking
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  action, arresting anyone. It's been the industry trying to
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  stop this because it's not illegal.
• 3:48
  Yeah, we mentioned last week some of the things that the New
• 3:51
  Labour governments might be campaigning for or getting
• 3:56
  involved with in terms of things around the music industry.
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  But secondary ticketing is one of the things that Labour has
• 4:04
  said it will look into. And they are, they are what it
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  appears the noises they're making are.
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  They do want to clamp down on some of the worst practice going
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  on around the secondary ticketing market.
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  So it'll be interesting to see what, what comes out of that.
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  But I think that was, and it's a, it's a, it's a sort of easy
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  win in a way, I think is to be able to come out and say, look,
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  we're going to clamp down on the, on the touts or, you know,
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  the worst, the worst parts of the industry where, as you say,
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  people are making a lot of money out of buying bulk amounts of
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  tickets and then selling them on it for an extortionate profit.
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  So that's something which I think, can I just go, while
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  we're on the subject of ticket touts, can I just mention my
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  favorite ever tout, which I mean, I know this sounds weird,
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  but, and then this is going back years, but there was a guy that
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  I'd always see around venues like Brixton Academy in the
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  forum in Kentish Town in North London.
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  And I, I don't know how how successful he was, but he
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  reliably used to get the names of bands wrong all the time, or
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  at least one in three times, including one night as I was
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  walking up to the Astoria RIP the historian London Jimmy Eat
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  World were playing. And as I, as I, as I walked up
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  towards the door, I just heard him among the throng of people
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  gathered outside saying, anyone ticket?
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  Anyone want tickets for Jimmy Eats the World?
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  I'll buy or sell Jimmy Eats the World.
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  And he always couldn't get the name of the band right, which I
• 5:41
  would have thought if, if if you decided on a career in ticket
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  touting, at least at least get the name of the artist right.
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  Was that? His thing do you think, was that
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  his commercial strategy to stand out from the crowd of touts
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  though? You know, it's really, we should
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  say actually that that that secondary ticketing itself
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  doesn't have to be bad or unfriendly.
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  Like Twicket is a good example of somewhere where it's really
• 6:01
  for fans who can't go to a gig. So I think the the key thing
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  here is I think Labour said they might try and have a cap on
• 6:07
  maximum 10% extra on the price of a ticket.
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  So I think being able to resell tickets being legal is a really
• 6:13
  good thing because it means if you can't go, you can shift a
• 6:15
  ticket someone else. Yeah.
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  But yeah, it's it's just the kind of the abuses of it that I
• 6:19
  think are being cracked down on. And and that's where, yeah, like
• 6:21
  you say, that we may see a change in the law.
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  So some things that weren't illegal now.
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  And these notes were, I don't know how much from the geeks
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  that you've been to, because you go to one or two big geeks,
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  which are the sort of places where you would in the old days
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  see touts congregating outside. I see a lot less tick actual
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  ticket touts these days than I used to than 10 years ago.
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  Certainly 20 years ago, every time you went to a gig at the
• 6:47
  Forum in Kentish Town, you come out of the tube station.
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  And I mean, it's a 5 minute walk to the to the venue.
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  But as soon as you came out of the tube station, from the tube
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  station to the front door of the venue, there would be, there'll
• 6:59
  be a tout every 100 yards virtually.
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  And I don't see so many actual touts these days, you know?
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  Maybe, yeah, it's true. Maybe they are.
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  Maybe it's nicer to sit at home on the Internet and so it's on
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  video. Go go.
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  You know, maybe that's maybe that business has moved online
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  and standing outside in the cold is a is a mugs game.
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  You know, we should get if anyone, I wonder if anyone's
• 7:19
  listening who has actually been or is a tout.
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  It'd be really interesting to actually talk to or hear from
• 7:25
  them. You know, what's changed for
• 7:26
  them. How's the money working?
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  That might be quite a fun episode sometime if they're
• 7:30
  willing to talk. You know the e-mail address, and
• 7:32
  if you don't, we'll give it to you at the end of the program.
• 7:34
  Question from Matt Rayner I'd like to ask a question about
• 7:37
  music metadata. Who is responsible for making
• 7:41
  sure it's accurate? And how do artists stop
• 7:44
  themselves from being tagged in songs they have no links to?
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  As an example, I have a weekly playlist Release Radar, which
• 7:51
  you'll find on Spotify. Other streaming services are
• 7:54
  available, says Matt. Any updates with new music from
• 7:58
  a artist I like and B music that the algorithm thinks I will like
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  based on my music preferences? What is really frustrating, says
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  Matt, is when an artist I do like is tagged as one of the
• 8:11
  artists against some instrumental track that clearly
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  has nothing to do with them. It seems to me this must be done
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  to generate listens and potentially revenue.
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  I'm often more than 30 seconds into a song before I before I
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  realise and skip the track or hide it to prevent any further
• 8:29
  accidental plays. But when I've tried to report
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  it, it appears to be reliant on the artist to do something about
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  it. So it's incorrectly tagged songs
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  or songs attached to an artist who does, who didn't make the
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  song. How does this muddle happen?
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  Thank you. By the way, Matt, talk us
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  through the whole business of music metadata, just for people
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  like myself who become easily confused when it comes to
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  phrases like this. I like your assumption that I'm
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  not easily confused by it as well.
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  I do you're. You're the tech guru.
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  You understand all of this? Every single word, yeah.
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  So metadata, to break it into metadata is all the information
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  around a track. It's the name of the artist, the
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  name of the song. But it's also stuff like genre,
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  all the all the information you can attach to a track when
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  you're uploading it to a streaming service to say what it
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  is, what it's like. And this has become really
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  important in recently because a lot of the recommendation
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  algorithms for streaming services work on this.
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  So it's really important when you're releasing music to have
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  every bit of metadata you can around it, every bit of
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  descriptive information that will help it be correctly thing
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  not to mention it. It's things like the songwriters
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  and the publishers of those, all that information which ensures
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  people get paid. So correct metadata helps you
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  get discovered. It also helps people get paid.
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  So technically on a streaming service, it's a label or a
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  distributor who's responsible for the metadata on a track
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  because when they upload the track, they have to upload the
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  metadata with it. And if you're an independent
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  artist who's using a distributor, you'll type in that
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  metadata when you're doing the kind of process of uploading it
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  to when you're, when you're adding your artwork, when you're
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  uploading the song, you'll create this.
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  And that's where the issues come in.
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  I've had the same thing actually as Matt has.
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  So I remember a few years ago, I really like, there's this Danish
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  band called IRA who were kind of, I might oversell it here.
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  They were like Kate Bush crossed with Radiohead, like they were
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  kind of like, imagine if Kate Bush had done everything in in
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  its right place like that, that sort of vibe.
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  And they were they were brilliant.
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  Not very, you know, they were kind of very small in terms of
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  listeners. And there's also a rapper called
• 10:37
  Ira from the UK and he's on the late the last Chase and status
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  album SO22 artists, the same name, which is not an unusual
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  problem. But I remember once he appeared
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  in my release radar playlist, which is the kind of everything
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  out new from the artist you follow this week.
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  And it was quite a surprise to hear kind of some some, you
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  know, some brisk British rap rather than like ethereal
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  Danish, you know, dream pop. So this is like not an unheard
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  of thing and it and it can be just that an innocent mistake.
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  Two artists with the same name who the message hasn't been
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  there because there haven't been kind of said that this this
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  artist is this IRA, not that IRA.
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  So it can happen by accident. It could happen on purpose.
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  I mean, I can't upload the track and say it's by Beyoncé and and
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  you know, trouser loads of royalties for it.
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  Like that's egregious stuff, but you can have people miss tagging
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  artists. So in terms of who sorts it out,
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  I actually went to Spotify. Other streaming services are
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  available. As Matt says, if your metadata
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  is wrong, Spotify says your label and distributor can help
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  fix this. So if your, if your metadata is
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  not right, and there's also a form on Spotify for artists, you
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  can, if you search Spotify for artists mixed up music, there's
• 11:47
  a form you can report mixed up music and say, right, this is
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  not my song, but it's been tagged as me.
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  And the, the solution apparently is that you just when you
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  deliver music, you give it a specified artist's ID.
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  So not just a name, but a specific number that is only
• 12:02
  that artist. And that should sort the
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  problem. So yeah, in short, it's labels
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  and distributors. But then if you're a
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  distributor, it's the artist's work.
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  And yeah, it can be an accident. You know, there's, I mean, we're
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  at the point now where so many band names have been taken that
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  there are going to be clashes. And so if that's where getting
• 12:19
  this message to write is really crucial so that you don't end up
• 12:23
  in someone's playlist who won't like you or, you know, master
• 12:26
  reason, an artist. Well, the, the, the, the point
• 12:30
  where I realised that we were facing an international band
• 12:33
  named Crisis was back in the 90s and this when I was Co running
• 12:40
  this little record label, Deceptive Records.
• 12:42
  And our first, we've mentioned that before.
• 12:44
  In fact, Anthony from this band asked a question on a listeners
• 12:48
  question special a couple of weeks ago.
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  But Collapsed Lung, the bands from Harlow, where I was living
• 12:54
  at the time, we put out their first records.
• 12:58
  And I think it must have been when the when the debut album
• 13:01
  came out around about that point when they obviously became
• 13:04
  noticed further afield than just Essex.
• 13:08
  But we had a they were, they had a cease and desist letter from a
• 13:12
  band in America called Collapsing Lung.
• 13:16
  Now, if you can't call yourself Collapsed Lung and think there's
• 13:19
  no one else called Collapsed Lung, right?
• 13:22
  That's no one else is going to be silly enough to call their
• 13:24
  bands Collapse Lung. And yeah.
• 13:27
  And then I believe and Anthony, get it, get get back in touch if
• 13:30
  you remember this or if I've got the story wrong.
• 13:32
  But I'm sure, yeah, there was an American band saying, yeah,
• 13:35
  we're called Collapsing Lung and you're infringing on alcohol,
• 13:39
  right? That would be a great double
• 13:41
  headliner to collapse. Collapsing.
• 13:43
  I mean, yeah, it it's funny I've been thinking about this because
• 13:46
  because like one of the most one of the driest sessions you can
• 13:49
  go to a music conference now it is interesting conference is, is
• 13:52
  the session on metadata because it's it's a dry subject.
• 13:56
  It's really important, but it's hard to talk about it in a very
• 13:59
  engaging way and it's just but it is becoming only more
• 14:02
  important. So for example, one of the
• 14:04
  things we're talking about is is AI recommendations and the idea
• 14:07
  of you can now type into Spotify, make me a playlist for
• 14:11
  listening to on a yacht while drinking a cup of tea and it
• 14:14
  will try and find me that. And that's where music message
• 14:17
  becomes important because it will go out and it will look at
• 14:19
  all the message around songs say right, well, that might be
• 14:21
  suitable for this thing I've been asked to do.
• 14:23
  So as we get more conversational with streaming services.
• 14:28
  So this stuff is going to be House of which is not to say as
• 14:31
  as an artist, you have to upload saying it's really good for
• 14:34
  drinking tea and also yachts, which you could do.
• 14:37
  You could put all these keywords in desperately trying to find,
• 14:39
  you know, But it's, it's yeah, I think as as an artist, there are
• 14:43
  quite a few guides out there. If you search for like music,
• 14:45
  most of the guides as an independent artist, it's one of
• 14:47
  the most important things is getting this right because it's
• 14:49
  how you'll get found and it's how you'll get paid.
• 14:52
  Maybe that'll be our, maybe that'll be one of our games for
• 14:55
  the summer when when we have a little bit more time is we'll go
• 15:01
  head to head with an algorithm, come up with, in fact, if
• 15:04
  anyone, if anyone wants to come up with the title of a playlist,
• 15:09
  the theme of a playlist. And then we'll let the algorithm
• 15:12
  do it. And then we'll have a go at
• 15:16
  actually doing it ourselves. And you can see which which one
• 15:18
  is better. We can't very well.
• 15:20
  I would say they could vote, but then that's worrying because
• 15:22
  they might not vote for us. That's that's entirely possible.
• 15:28
  Finally, for this episode, this is a question from Adrian
• 15:31
  Mansfield who says as we're now well into the festival season,
• 15:34
  I'm interested to understand how acts get paid from festivals.
• 15:38
  I assume headline acts take the largest percentage, but how
• 15:42
  would a mid card act benefit, especially at a smaller two to
• 15:46
  three day event with a large number of acts?
• 15:50
  And we sort of, we, we sort of touched on this in our show,
• 15:53
  which is dated July 5th. If you missed that one, are you
• 15:57
  And have a listen to that when we were talking about outdoor
• 15:59
  gigs. But we'll do this again.
• 16:02
  I'll try not to repeat myself too much, but at the time one,
• 16:07
  at least one industry insider I spoke to told us that it's
• 16:11
  entirely possible, Adrian, that using your example of say of a
• 16:16
  three day festival, and certainly when it comes to the
• 16:19
  bigger festivals, that the money paid to the three headline acts
• 16:23
  could be as much as 50% of the festivals entire budget.
• 16:29
  Because obviously they're the headline attractions.
• 16:32
  They're the, they're the people in bold letters who will help
• 16:36
  the promoters sell the tickets. What we, what we didn't mention
• 16:39
  at the time though, and I guess this applies to your question as
• 16:43
  well, is that someone I spoke to noted that while the fees for
• 16:47
  the top level bands have increased markedly in the last
• 16:52
  decade, the money for accidents who are appearing in the middle
• 16:55
  of the bill has gone up much more slowly.
• 16:58
  And I've been for opening artists, having talked to a
• 17:01
  couple of people about this, with a fee you get for, you
• 17:05
  know, being one of the first couple of bands on has barely
• 17:07
  changed at all in the past 10 years.
• 17:11
  So it's entirely possible now that the headline artists, and
• 17:14
  again, I'm, you know, it depends on how big the festival is.
• 17:17
  But say you're one of the big 5 festivals, you could be getting,
• 17:20
  I don't know, half a million upwards, say, while the first
• 17:24
  band on is still getting a couple of £100, if that,
• 17:28
  depending on what festival you're doing.
• 17:31
  Because as I say, I mean, it depends on the size of the
• 17:33
  festival and what budgets they're working with.
• 17:36
  And it is, I mean, I put out a couple of emails this week to
• 17:40
  people who who are in the know and working live music,
• 17:44
  including a couple of agents. Just it's hard trying to pin
• 17:48
  people down on actual fees. Well, partly because of all the
• 17:52
  variables as just mentioned, but but also I don't think anyone
• 17:56
  likes to let on what their bands are being paid because there's
• 18:01
  you know, there's a bit of ducking and diving to be done
• 18:04
  when you're an agent trying to get your band on a bill.
• 18:06
  But but anyway, one booking agent, our secret booking agent
• 18:09
  did say, and I quote him here, it said, he said as an agent,
• 18:15
  you are still striving to get more than a stand alone ticketed
• 18:19
  show. So you want to get more than if
• 18:21
  it was just one of your headline gigs.
• 18:24
  And that's again quoting here, that's because the show is
• 18:29
  technically A1 off situation where you've got to pay crew,
• 18:33
  you've got to pay for a bus or at least a transport costs,
• 18:36
  you've got to pay for accommodation if that's not
• 18:39
  provided by the promoter and possibly even rehearsals.
• 18:42
  And of course, just being a one off gig, you're not spreading
• 18:45
  this over a number of dates. So costs can become very high
• 18:49
  very quickly for one show. But normally the promoter would
• 18:52
  know what sort of worth ticket wise the the band has and then
• 18:57
  they'll make their offer accordingly, depending on how
• 19:01
  much, how much the promoter wants or needs your band for
• 19:06
  their billing. And also of course, how much
• 19:08
  your band, the band wants or need to play that festival.
• 19:13
  So there's an awful lot of negotiation goes on.
• 19:16
  But if anyone else would, I mean, if anyone's listening, who
• 19:19
  if you wouldn't mind telling us if you are in a band and you've
• 19:22
  been in this position middle on at a festival, do you feel free
• 19:25
  to contact us on or off the record?
• 19:28
  You and the touts can both go to thepriceofmusicpodcast@gmail.com
• 19:34
  where you can leave your comments or your insider
• 19:38
  knowledge. But it's, I mean, the, The thing
• 19:41
  is, it's all about the names. It's all about what that name is
• 19:46
  going to mean to a certain amount of people.
• 19:48
  And that dictates your value, doesn't it?
• 19:55
  Two things I was thinking about. One is like, I guess it's I'm
• 19:59
  always aware of anyone saying it's promotion.
• 20:01
  It's good promotion because that's normally a way of not
• 20:03
  paying you much. But I guess if you're at
• 20:05
  festival, are you going to get on the TV?
• 20:06
  If it's something like Glastonbury, you might or
• 20:08
  Reading leaves have been televised and that, can you get
• 20:11
  a bump from that? I always get press releases
• 20:13
  after festivals saying such and such an act got 197% spike in
• 20:17
  streams after this festival because they're on the telly.
• 20:19
  So I guess you're hoping for that kind of thing.
• 20:21
  But also, you know, at Glastonbury some years where
• 20:24
  you'll hear about there'll be some artist who's played like 17
• 20:26
  * / 4 days and you always think, oh God, they must be literally
• 20:30
  banging on the doors of staging and let me have a go.
• 20:32
  But that maybe that's a smart way to do it.
• 20:33
  You maximise your, if you're playing a bunch of different
• 20:36
  sets around the festival, if you're getting paid for all of
• 20:39
  them, maybe that's the way to make it add up.
• 20:41
  You know, you stay there for four days, get paid 15 times.
• 20:45
  DJ sets. I guess you, I guess you have to
• 20:47
  maybe try and do more than just one one set.
• 20:50
  Perhaps that's the way to make it work, I don't know.
• 20:52
  Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that's possible.
• 20:54
  I mean, looking at the looking at the festivals, we're having
• 20:56
  this conversation actually myself from a radio team about
• 21:00
  one specific festival which is coming up this month, I think.
• 21:04
  And had obviously thrown a lot of money at the headliners on
• 21:09
  all the stages. But in doing that had created
• 21:14
  innumerable clashes where every everyone who was on that one of
• 21:19
  my team wanted to see. So they're all at the same time,
• 21:22
  they're all they're, they're all in the top two at all the
• 21:24
  different stages. Whereas you could have spent
• 21:28
  less money on some of the bigger acts and propped up the middle
• 21:31
  card where you can see bands on the way up in a staggered way
• 21:36
  where you can you know where they're not clashing time wise
• 21:38
  with each other. I saw a local festival, someone
• 21:42
  Essex, and it had like one or two name bands at the top and
• 21:45
  then every single other band was a tribute band, which I was
• 21:49
  thinking, well, I don't want to assume that's cheap because like
• 21:51
  chew bands get decent money, but they bring in the money at the
• 21:55
  bar, Don't we? I think we talked originally
• 21:56
  about how chewy bands are the biggest thing for but you sort
• 21:59
  of think that was an example of maybe you get the two big bands
• 22:01
  at the top and then the rest of the bill is proven crowd
• 22:05
  pleasers, but possibly not on the same level.
• 22:08
  But it's, it is what I mean, I sort of, I know I'm, I think one
• 22:12
  of my ambitions for this podcast is for us to get big enough.
• 22:16
  And I will, I will pay for this. I won't expect payment.
• 22:18
  I will pay to DJ at the laser spider at Glastonbury.
• 22:21
  That's my ambition. I will pay it.
• 22:24
  I'll pay Emily Evas to let me have a DJ set in the giant laser
• 22:27
  spider which. Do you think you can buy Emily
• 22:31
  Evas though? I don't know, I.
• 22:33
  Don't think so, I think. I think she has, I think she has
• 22:36
  strong principles ethically and also musically, and I would fail
• 22:39
  on both of those. It isn't.
• 22:42
  But but I think, yeah, I think that is the way to do it, isn't
• 22:45
  it? You know, the more you can do at
• 22:46
  a festival, the more you can do it and the the.
• 22:49
  Yeah, but I mean, it's a shame because I you sort of, we talked
• 22:51
  about Nadine show, didn't we, recently, not being able to put
• 22:54
  the show she wanted to put on. So in all seriousness, if people
• 22:58
  lower down the bill aren't getting the same kind of rises
• 23:01
  up, but you you're going to kind of as fans, you're going to lose
• 23:03
  out because you might not see someone performing to their full
• 23:05
  potential. I think a part of this is down
• 23:09
  to the massive expansion of festivals as well, which means
• 23:13
  you have to your big name artists have to be even bigger.
• 23:17
  If your if your festival is a 40,000 capacity, then you can
• 23:22
  aim at a certain level of fame for your headline acts.
• 23:28
  You expand upwards. I'm only, I'm thinking of
• 23:31
  particularly Reading Festival where which used to have a
• 23:34
  capacity of around 40,000. And that's when you had, you
• 23:37
  know, your likes of, I don't know, somebody like James or any
• 23:41
  of the, you know, bands that were big, big independent acts,
• 23:45
  possibly had a couple of hits. They would be worth the
• 23:48
  headliner. These days you've got to go
• 23:50
  bigger and bigger and bigger and Glastonbury similarly, I think,
• 23:53
  you know, it's expanded a little bit over the last decade and,
• 23:58
  and, and now Phil's on the bounds to hit you with a massive
• 24:02
  headliner. So that means you're going to
• 24:05
  take more money away from the rest of the bill to pay for your
• 24:08
  massive headliner to pull the maximum amount of people to buy
• 24:12
  tickets. That's the economics of.
• 24:14
  It, that's what I mean. I think whenever we talk to
• 24:16
  someone in live, they're like, it's, it's such a balancing act,
• 24:19
  isn't it? Now you've got to make it all
• 24:21
  work somehow and add up and be good.
• 24:24
  You know, that's a thing. You can't if it's rubbish most
• 24:26
  of the day and then you have a good headliner that's people
• 24:28
  aren't going to go home happy, are they so.
• 24:32
  Anyway, thank you very much, Adrian, for that question.
• 24:34
  Well, in fact, thanks to everyone who's written in.
• 24:37
  And if you too have a question which you'd like answered on the
• 24:40
  show, e-mail us again. That address is The Price of
• 24:43
  Music, podcast@gmail.com. And thank you very much for
• 24:47
  listening. Please do subscribe to the show
• 24:49
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• 24:51
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• 24:54
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• 25:08
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• 25:11
  Till then, Cheerio.