Latest / The Permission Slip / S1 | E3 Jonathan Tripodi - Body Memory
Transcript
- The Permission Slip - S1-E3 Tripodi === Matt Kosterman: Hi, my name is Matt Kosterman. I'm a 56-year-old white guy living in Chicago, Illinois. For the first 50 plus years of my life, I didn't think I was allowed to be here, not just here in Chicago, but here on earth in a body. I suffered from depression for most of my life. I smoked my first joint at age 11 and had my first drink of southern comfort straight from the bottle at age 13. While the cannabis never really took hold as an addiction, I drank alcohol for the next 20 years, many times to excess. In 1998, I began psychotherapy, and in the year 2000 I started on antidepressants. I spent 12 years on them in 15 years in traditional talk therapy. Meanwhile, I built a successful business, became a father to two amazing girls, and rehabbed an old house in a nice suburb. I did all the things. In 2010, I went through divorce, foreclosure, and bankruptcy. Fun times after much flailing about, I got my head on straight in 2015, only to begin experiencing severe chronic pelvic pain along with fibromyalgia. I spent nearly three years in the western medical system trying desperately to heal in 2018. Out of money and out of patience. My healing journey really kicked into gear after my first magic mushroom trip. The years since have been an amazing and challenging ride. I've traversed the physical and not so physical worlds and been fortunate to work with many, many talented healers. As a result of all my efforts, I now find myself in a place of receiving contentment and prosperity, the likes of which had alluded me for most of my life. There's a man named Darrell Anka, who channels a being called Bahar. Bahar describes the process of engaging with a healer that, of giving yourself what is essentially a permission slip to move towards wholeness healing and right relationship. This podcast is an effort to share some of what I've learned and introduce you to some of the people in ways that literally gave me what feels like my permission slip for existence. It's also an effort to continue to spread the word. That the traditional Western medical system, while effective for a great many things, is not necessarily the be all, end all solution to every health problem, especially when the problem may be more spiritual than it is physical, as it was in my case. Thanks for joining me. I hope you enjoy it. Please like, subscribe and do all the social media things that help spread the word, share these links with people directly in your community. It is my sincere hope that you and others will benefit from my experiences. I'm here today with, uh, uh, Jonathan Tripodi, a great friend, a gifted healer, and a gifted astrologer. And, um, we are going to talk about all things myofascial today. So Jonathan, welcome. Thanks for being here. Jonathan Tripodi: Thanks, Matt. Glad to be here. Matt Kosterman: We're gonna try, this is actually our second attempt at this. The, the computer gods were not in our favor the first time, so here we are again. So it's, thanks for being here. It's, it's, it's great to see you. It feels like it was a year ago, but it was only a couple, couple of months. Um, I actually, when we were just talking a minute ago, I, I forgot to mention to you, I was talking to Renee McKenna, who I've also recorded a podcast with, and she, she reached out to say, I, I, I'm getting, I'm getting people with a lot of chronic pain and they want something other than opiates. So she said, anything you can do to tell people about. So kind of just put that out there and table that. 'cause I, I, I, I'm seeing that as well. There's a lot of people with chronic pain out there, but before we kind of get to that, um. Just kind of, uh, introduce yourself, tell people about what you do, how you got here, crazy journey that, that, that you've been on and, and, uh, yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah, sure. Um, I've always been fascinated with the body. I was a pretty athletic growing up, and so when it was time to go to college, I decided to decided go to physical therapy school and, uh, learn more about the body, but then how to help people heal. And then when I graduated from physical therapy, I got introduced to mile release as a technique, and I went to a seminar and learned about fascia and specifically how fascia relates to chronic pain, but also how it has this capacity to store memory. So when you release fascia, people's pain goes away, but also. Memories from the past, emotions that took on kind of an energetic feel in the body and would move through the body, causing it to shake or treble or heat up. And, uh, people would have vivid experiences past events that were painful to them. Um, all of this translated to them feeling better. And uh, that was the fascinating thing about that moment for me, was how powerful the release of suppressed emotion in particular, uh, the, IM the positive impact that had on the body. You could breathe better, you can move better, your nervous system's calmer, uh, and then pain just reduces or goes away. And so this became, uh, a turning point for me in my journey. I. In, in studying and learning about the body is I wanted to know more about body memory and I wanted to learn more about how to help people access and release that because it was providing results that none of my physical therapy training, uh, did. So that was at my late twenties and I'm now getting close to 58. So it's been a 30 year journey and I'm still learning. But one thing I can say has been an outcome of all of that experience is that physical issues in the body and specifically chronic pain, often relate to a flow issue. And our body is a major conductor of energy. The tissues and the fluids of the body conduct electrical current magnetic fields, frequencies. But the energy of our life experiences, and when we suppress a life experience, we're suppressing energy and our body reacts to that suppression by getting contracted. And over time the facia hardens and restricts. And that begins to create inflammation and over time pain. And until we can get access to that suppressed memory and release it, it continues to perpetuate that cycle of muscle contraction, fascial restriction, and hardening and inflammation. So people in chronic pain loops are often of the victim of, if you will, an un undiagnosed or unrecognized body memory. And, uh, they're not getting access and releasing it. So most everything becomes kind of a temporary relief experience, um, because it's not getting to the core of what's generating a problem. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, whatever the, whatever was a physical trauma or an emotional trauma. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah, it can be a car accident, it can be a fall, it can be a major surgery. Um, but it can also be, you know, different forms of abuse, physical, verbal, emotional, sexual, um, it can be all of all of the above. For Matt Kosterman: all of the above for some people. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah, some people, yeah, for sure. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And, and, and speaking of the, the physical and car, you spoke of a car accident. So tell, tell, go a little bit into your, your origin story, you know, before you got to, to school, to, to, to be a physical therapist. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. This became, this body memory phenomenon became really, uh, life changing for me because at age 21. I developed blood clots for no apparent reason in my right leg, and they were life-threatening. Some of them dislodged. Went to my heart, then into my lung. These things can kill you. So I was pulled outta college, went to a ton of doctors, went to Mayo Clinic. Nobody could figure out why these clots developed. All they knew is that the damage done to my right leg was significant and would ultimately result in an amputation. And, uh, my Matt Kosterman: But you go ahead. So you, but you had had this accident years before and you thought everything was fine. What accident or hadn't you, you'd been hit by a car. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah, but at age 21, I developed blood clots. I had for no reason I. Matt Kosterman: Okay. And unre unrelated to the auto accident, to the au to the collision? Jonathan Tripodi: Well, the, the, the auto accident was at age five, so there was nobody connecting the dots there. Um, certainly I recovered from the car accident at age five with no problems. So there was no way to recognized that that accident had anything to do with the, the leg condition. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Jonathan Tripodi: so the way that, that, that connection did become realized is through mild fascia release techniques being applied to my body and my leg, and me entering that surrendered state where body memories could surface. And eventually I accessed that car accident and was able to release it, and then subsequently my leg, uh, got better. The swelling went down. And, um, I no longer required medication or external compression garments to maintain the swelling. I will say it wasn't just the accident, it was a lot of grief around loss in my childhood from a divorce parents and separation in my family. A lot of suppressed emotion. And what was fascinating is that the access and release of suppressed emotion, even a little bit translated to a reduction in swelling in my leg. So I had this like physical barometer to let me know that releasing emotion from the past was translating to a physical improvement in my body that actually, um, surpassed, if you will, or in a way could not be explained by the medical community, their paradigm. Did not recognize suppressed emotion as contributing to this condition, or did they say that the release of suppressed emotion could help? Matt Kosterman: Right. Jonathan Tripodi: And so really this body memory phenomenon became so exciting because a lot of the medical, uh, doctors that I'd seen who were really fantastic, their paradigm wasn't able to help me. And, um, I was left with this life threatening condition and 21 is in a young age to have that. And I didn't know what to do. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And I certainly didn't wanna wait around to have my leg amputated. That wasn't much fun or inspiring. So here my fascia release came in and this phenomenon of body memory became realized and it became a path. Um, 'cause not only did my leg get better and heal. But I started to heal on a personal level. Um, just gaining more confidence, more vitality, more peace, um, and more, how should I say, more love for myself. Uh, you know, part of the healing process around body memory is opening your heart to yourself. Mm-hmm. You know, most of our physical or emotional pain comes out of experiences where love was absent in our life. And so we keep looking outward for it, but that doesn't always work out. And so part of the inward path to healing is to begin to open our heart and bring love to those places in our body and those parts of us that were, you know, not loved. And so, so that's all the wonderful outcomes of body memory transformation. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, so you were seeing a, a, a, I mean, a real time sort of direct correlation with this release and then the relief and the release, and then the relief. Jonathan Tripodi: And not only me, but there were people around me training in this technique, and I was witnessing things happening for them. And then when I made it a career, I can say, wow, I've, I've worked with thousands of individuals at this point and all of them significant trauma histories, um, from massive car accidents to where 60 plus bones were broken in their body, um, to people who've been victims of, I'm using extreme examples, um, satanic ritual, um, or people who just have experienced, um, hardship. A lot of suffering their childhood for different reasons. And these individuals get to feel better through body memory transformation. Um, they get off antidepressants, they get off their medications, um, their body starts to feel better. They, they, they get happier, more peaceful. And the whole key is to be able to surrender to these experiences rather than protect yourself from them. The protection, although is keeping you separated from the feelings and the sensations of pain, it's also creating the tensions that's perpetuating the pain. Yes, Matt Kosterman: a hundred percent. Jonathan Tripodi: And so it's, it's like a double-edged sword. Matt Kosterman: It's a, a para, it's a paradox. It's a, it's a bit of a paradox. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And what would you say? I, I, I, I was speaking to a, a, a a person the other day after, uh, I, I go to a ecstatic dance on Sundays and, and they said, we were talking, they're going through a divorce and they were talking about how they're holding onto these feelings or whatever. And I, I think I was talking about psychedelics. 'cause we all know how much I like those. And, and they said, well, what if, you know, um, I I, I don't want, I don't wanna let that stuff out. And, and I said, well, why, why would you wanna keep it in? Like it's, you know, speaking about emotions or, you know, the, the person characterizes themselves as I, I'm, I'm a lot, I have a lot of 'em, you know? Well, okay, but why, you know, what would you say to somebody about why I, I, I'm, I'm afraid. I'm afraid. I'm afraid to, to feel it. I'm afraid to feel this feeling. Jonathan Tripodi: Well, you've identified the number one reason why we suppress. Experience. We're ultimately, we're afraid to feel it. So fear becomes, um, the adversary, so to speak. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Tripodi: And the Matt Kosterman: prison. Jonathan Tripodi: Yep. So we get to a point in our life where we're tired of being afraid. Um, initially we might be afraid and we feel like that's working for us. And then years go by and we get afraid of this and afraid of that. And now there's another event in our life and another experience that's overwhelming and we keep responding to it with fear. So we end up accumulating a lot of pain in our body and begins that it begins to affect our body and it debilitates us. And at some point we're just. Tired of being afraid and also tired of being depressed and tired of being in pain. And we start to go deeper and access another part of our nature, you know, part of our nature's fear. But another part is very loving and very powerful and very wise. And once we open to that part of our nature, it begins to heal us. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. And that, and that was my experience. I mean, I, I'm, I, Jonathan is on here because we've, we've not only worked together, he worked on me, he's worked on me many, many times. Um, and I, I went through his, uh, his training program to get trained in, in body memory recall. And so I can say with, you know, from, from her firsthand experience, it was, uh, it's an incredibly powerful modality. Um, and, and, and I, while I didn't have a physical trauma growing up, I had a lot of trauma, uh, a lack of expressed love. Uh, abusive, uh, situation. Uh, I came to find out later I had, I was sexually abused when I was seven years old. I did, I don't have a memory of it. Um, and I ended up with severe, uh, pelvic floor disorder, uh, amongst fibro, you know, fibromyalgia, all, all kind of chronic pain, chronic fatigue. And, um, and I found, uh, I was guided, literally like divine guidance to Jonathan in, in 2020, right before the pandemic. And, uh, and it was, uh, it, it was an amazing experience. I mean, I don't know if, if, if you remember, but, uh, you, you had my legs up for I don't know how long. Um, I'm sure it felt like even longer to you than it did to me, but, you know, straight legs laying on a table up, up in the air, pushing them slowly from side to side and, and it, it, it, something popped deep in, in my pelvic floor and there was a huge rush and release of emotion. Um, and, and, and that was just the beginning of, of the work, um, uh, that, that has, has opened the flow in, in, in my own body to, to things that I never expected, never, you know, the kind of energies that are, that are able to flow through. Um, so I'm, you know, super grateful and, and this is one of the reasons why I am doing these podcasts and, and wanting to others to learn about these modalities. Um. That are available. Um, Jonathan Tripodi: thank you, Matt. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Thank you for that service. It's really needed. Yeah. And Matt Kosterman: yeah, I remember you said to me, uh, you, because you very slowly when we started, you, you, you went to touch my ankles and later you said, you know, you have a startle response. And I was like, I do. I mean, I was so disconnected from my body that I didn't even know that there was a, that, that there was a, a, a, a reflex, a startle reflex. That is, is that, is that, talk about that a little bit. Is that a common thing that you talk about people and their connection or lack thereof to their physical self? Jonathan Tripodi: So protecting ourselves from pain or an emotional pain or physical pain is automated. We don't have to think to do it or try to do it. It happens automatically. And so part of that protective response is to disconnect our awareness from it. So I, I think of it like a junk drawer. It's like when you have something in your house and you dunno what to do with it. You just put it in a drawer somewhere and you forget about it. And our body has a way of suppressing the energy of pain or suffering and quarantining it, and then, then disconnecting our awareness from it. So I let people know, like, from the neck down is where we feel, and from the neck up is where we think. Mm-hmm. So when we're overwhelmed with feeling, the natural response is to disconnect from our body below and go into our head. Yeah. So what was great about your journey was, you know, was that you were. Back into your body in a way for the first time, maybe in years, and reconnecting your awareness of feeling to your legs, to your feet, to your groin, to your, your pelvis, to all these parts of our body. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And that's what's healing. I tell people all the time, you're gonna heal your body, but you need to come into it to heal. You're the energy of, of healing. And if you're up here in your head, your body's deprived of the very energy that heals it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. I was walking around all the time, just pissed off 'cause I was in pain and angry with my body. Um, and the pain was a result of, of really, of me abusing. And I, and I literally, between the emotional abuse that I, that I gave to myself, beating myself up the, the nega, the constant negative ruminations, and then working out playing tennis, I literally dislocated my, my hips. I, I I, I twisted and lifted one hip from the other through repetitive motion and through the suppression of the energy that I wouldn't allow the suppression of, of emotion suppression of, you know, I was, I was trained not to cry, stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about, was the mantra. Jonathan Tripodi: Wow. Yeah. I mean, not only don't cry, but there's a threat, like if you do there, there's like a punishment associated with it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And to be clear, I don't, I I, I have no animosity toward my father for that. I have, he was a product of how he was raised. I. And you know, it, it's all fine. It's just, it's very interesting on the, on the backside of it to be able to go, wow, look at how powerful I am in a negative way. Jonathan Tripodi: Oh, nice. Yep. Absolutely. Matt Kosterman: Like, look what I am able to, to do to my, to my body. And then the flip side is, look how powerful I am in order to be able to heal it. Jonathan Tripodi: You bring up, I think one of my favorite points that I like to, the, my favorite message to bring to people that they don't often realize is that, first of all, you've already survived everything that ever happened to you, and that's no easy feat. Yeah. But as you mentioned, when you take that same power that's been directed towards survival and you redirect it towards healing, it has an equal but opposite effect, you begin to feel better. Matt Kosterman: Actually equal, but o opposite and, and greater. If you look at like Hawkins is, you know, the, the, the power versus force and the, the map of consciousness as you go into those higher energies and they're more powerful than the lower energies of shame and guilt and anger. Jonathan Tripodi: So Matt Kosterman: True, true. Um, sorry I cut you off when you were saying it. Jonathan Tripodi: Uh, no, so true. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: It's better when you say it. It's so true. And, and I think that, that people need the opportunity to discover both sides of their nature. Yeah. They need to discover that healing side of their nature and their healing energy and their power to heal. Most everybody has already gotten to know their ability to survive. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. We figured out how to fuck it up. Jonathan Tripodi: Well, and not even intentionally. Just not what, right, Matt Kosterman: right. Jonathan Tripodi: Because it's automatic. It's automatic. It doesn't, it doesn't take choice to, to survive it. It's automated in our body, but it does take choice to heal. And that's why it's, I think, a greater power because we choose it. Matt Kosterman: Right. It takes choice to heal. I love that. And it, it, it continues to take choice to thrive. Jonathan Tripodi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Um, I mean, there, there, although, you know, it's an interesting thing. I don't know what you, you know, I think once the healing begins, the thriving actually is the nature. I think we're actually, we're, we're, we suppress the, we've been trained to suppress the thrive. We've, we've been programmed Jonathan Tripodi: and, and because that programming's there, it's really just a habit. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Now we're looking at a habit, something that happens unconsciously, automatically without our choice. And now we're just surviving on a daily basis. All these little things, like little pains and, and emotions that come up during the day. And until we can get conscious of that habit Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And choose flow instead of suppression, then we're just getting all worked up again. Right. You know, and next thing you know, our neck is tight, our back hurts. And our, or constipated, you know, something's numb. All on your above. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I would literally, I would be out on the tennis court for hours so angry that I wasn't better, you know, and, and just beating myself up over every lost point I. Or even hitting against the ball machine, I'd be pissed if I missed a ball. Right. And then, you know, you come to find out somebody like tennis, great. Roger Federer, I don't remember the exact number, but he's literally, he only won something like 52% of his points over time. Right. I mean, he has this am amazing record. He is, you know, was undefeated grand slams and all this, but over time he was only just a little bit better Wow. Than his opponents. But, but when you, when you, uh, when that compounds over time, uh, it turns into great things. And, and in my case, I was compounding it in a negative. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. And you bring up another really good analogy. Um, I'd use the same one with people. I said, look, you don't have to be a hundred percent surrendered to your body memories. You just have to be 51%. You have to be, you have to have a controlling interest in the company, you know, with your body. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right, right. Jonathan Tripodi: Um, and once you make that switch to 51% heal instead of 51% survive, you start healing and then it picks up speed after that. And when you get to 60 and 70 and 80% healing, you're starting to feel better than you ever imagined was possible. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. As we forget how great it felt to be, you know, a three-year-old just tripping out and checking out this crazy world. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. So I watched the Kung Fu series from the seventies with David Carradine. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Grasshopper Jonathan Tripodi: and, uh, grasshopper. Right. So here's the little disciple Kane going to his master and he says, master, what is it to be a man? Hmm. And, uh, we, we might as well just say, what is it to be a human being? And the master says to be one with the universe. Mm-hmm. And what we don't realize is that every time we separate ourselves from ourselves, we're also inadvertently separating ourselves from the universe. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And that separation becomes a source of pain and suffering and loneliness and depression and longing for connection. But we're not even connected with ourselves, right? Because we're so invested in surviving and protecting ourselves. So what happens is part of the outcome of body memory transformation, we get reconnected to our body, reconnected to our feelings, reconnected to our heart, and we start flowing in our energy again. And then immediately that original blueprint of being one with the universe starts to become realized. And we start feeling this extended expansive connection with all of life around us. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. What always comes to mind when we, when I talk about this stuff is, uh, the book, it was a graduation, uh, commencement speech, uh, at Kenyon College by David Foster Wallace, and it's in a small book called, this is Water. And, and, and it's a story of two fish, two little adolescent fish swimming along and one says to the other, what's water? And, and he goes on to, you know, trying to explain. And I was thinking about it this morning for some reason. And it's, uh, I think, 'cause I'm teach I'm gonna be teaching a course, uh, up in Highland Park next month in, in May, and about consciousness. And, um, it's, you know, we were talking earlier about, you were talking about the stuck energy and the, and this, I mean, we are ultimately energy. And consciousness. We are ultimately consciousness. We are conscious that we are conscious. And it's like trying to explain what is consciousness is a, is a, you, you, you sort of can't do it. Like it, it just, we we are it. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah, for sure. It's, uh, certainly would be, I mean the, the simplest way that I've had it explained is consciousness is awareness. It's similar. Mm-hmm. And awareness is a non-thinking state, so we can't talk about it from an intellectual perspective because we're immediately back in our head. So getting back to a state of awareness is the key to begin to experience oneness versus intellectualize. It. Matt Kosterman: The awareness comes in, the bo is in the body. Jonathan Tripodi: I believe it's a good place to start. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Because if there's, there's so much separation that is already occurred within the body and within ourselves, with our emotions, with our heart, with our spirit. And these things just happened automatically through our early part of our life. When things got overwhelming, our body began to protect us. But living with protection as a way of life is very, very painful. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And that's where the healing journey becomes. It's not just about feeling better in your body, it's about getting back to our original blueprint, which is being one with the universe and feeling it. And it's, no, it's really not that great to just tell ourselves that it does. That doesn't change how we feel. Right, right. So we, if you want the feeling of being one with the universe, start with your body and start becoming one with your body in awareness, Matt Kosterman: in awareness, Jonathan Tripodi: and then one with your emotions. And overcome the fear of both so that the energies of your body and the energies of your feelings can be felt and experienced. And then when you're over the fear of it, you'll be maybe over the fear of feeling on a more expansive level. Like one with the universe. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. A hundred, a hundred percent. Yeah. Feel, feel the, I mean, I say this to people all the time we're, we are here to feel emotions. They are, emotion is energy in motion. And, and when it gets stuck is when you, you know, like you talked about, if you don't have the flow and the, the flow is the emotion moving through your body, it's. It's when I have an impetus to cry about something and my, my trained reaction is suppression. I'm, I'm working on it, but my initial, my initial reaction is, my programmed reaction is to not feel it. Jonathan Tripodi: And what's great is once you become aware of that, when you're not aware of that, there's nothing you can do to change it. It's on autopilot, Matt Kosterman: autopilot. Jonathan Tripodi: So, but once you become aware of it, you can at some point make a different choice. And then, like you were saying, that's practice. It doesn't happen all at once. So you begin to practice on a daily basis feeling mm-hmm. And flowing with feelings rather than suppressing and, and working against them. And, um, that practice pays off over time. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. It's definitely a practice. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm only, it's only sort of recently that I'm, I'm even realizing how. You know, on a, on a, on a day-to-day basis, I don't feel that much. Like, I don't, there's not generally speaking a why, you know, I'm not always present to what is the feeling about something. And it's, it's just, it's from programming. And that's why I think, that's why I like psychedelics so much. 'cause it gives me like, intense feelings. Right. You know, I, I get to, you know, I get to cry it out like I haven't cried in 10 years. Uh, or I'll laugh for a half an hour uncontrollably. Right. Or I'll, you know, I, I've had experiences of feeling other people's pain through, through that. And it's like this, you know, and it's like the universe telling me this is what an emotion feels like, you know, like smacking me upside the head. Jonathan Tripodi: Well, I, I think we're both, I love that we're both talking about this because I think it's a great message for those of. Uh, people who are listening that, that you don't place these unreasonable expectations on yourself to become this feeling person all at once. Yeah. It's a practice. Uh, but it does, it, it has to begin with first you making the decision to feel and then practicing feeling and getting conscious of the habit to resist and, and then choosing to surrender. And part of that, what comes outta that process is that you realize that, wow, I'm actually okay if I feel, because some part of you was saying to yourself, if I feel I'm gonna be worse Matt Kosterman: Yep. Jonathan Tripodi: Or I may not survive this. And once you practice doing it a little bit, you start gaining confidence that, wow, I can actually feel very intense feelings, whether it's intense pleasure or intense pain, and I'm actually okay. I, I don't need to protect myself from this. Matt Kosterman: It's not overwhelming. I'm, I'm, I'm designed for this ultimately. Jonathan Tripodi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: I talk about the analogy of like a hose, and when you run a small current of water through the, through a narrow hose, it works fine. But if you turn up the volume of water, but you don't expand the parameters of the hose, you got pressure. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And that's what we have in our body where the tension and the pressure is that a lot of energy needs to come through, but we're only allowing this much. So part of the surrender process is to just allow yourself to expand and be part of the outcome of, of protecting ourselves for years is we've gotten very narrow in our body, really tight, really constricted our minds even have gotten pretty narrow. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Um, and so the healing process is an expansion process led opening and opening and expanding, allowing more things to flow through us. I mean, some of the great masters who've accomplished this at a high, high level, when you see them, they look completely relaxed and very at ease. But their energy fields are way the hell out there. Um, and so they're channeling the universe. Uh, they're not in the way of it, and you can feel it. That's possible for all of us. Matt Kosterman: And talking. I mean, that kind of brings us to the, a little bit of the, the, the physiology of it. Right? If you talk about the hose, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll throw a, a, a link to a video. If you're squeamish about body anatomy, I recommend you skipping, skipping forward or don't, don't follow the link. Um, but talk a little bit about the str the physiology. The physiology of the fascia. 'cause you talked about a hose and ultimately that's what it is. A a bunch of very small ones. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. Let's talk about the anatomy of constriction and the anatomy of expansion. I think that's really helpful. So we talked about body memories, origin is fear. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And so fear almost immediately translates to a transmission by your nervous system to your muscles contract. All right. So that, that's the beginning of the constriction process. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And then you have fascia, which is a three dimensional web of tissue that is pervasive from your feet all the way through your body to the top of your head. So all the muscles in your body are embedded in fascia. Mm-hmm. So when muscles, cons, constrict, or contract, it's, it's pulling this fabric in your body tighter. And an analogy for that would be if you put your hand in the middle of your bed and you squished the sheet, you would see tension go out in all different directions on that sheet. The muscles in the middle contracting. But that tension isn't isolated to the muscle. It's going throughout the entire fabric of the sheep. Same in way in your body. When a muscle contracts, the fabric of your body is fascia and it gets tighter. And that tension in the fascia causes more collagen to develop and bond the fibers of the fascia together, forming a restriction. Mm-hmm. And then added to that is there's fluid inside the fibers of fascia and there's fluid outside of it. That fluid under the tension of muscle contraction will cause the fluid to harden. Mm-hmm. And now you've developed not just tension and restriction, but hardness. So all we gotta do is go right to our body, anywhere in our body that you are. Tense, restricted and hard. And most likely that's the outcome of suppressed, uh, experiences, emotions, physical experiences that we're afraid of. Matt Kosterman: Right? Afraid of feeling. We, we've suppressed them 'cause we don't want to feel 'em for whatever reason. Doesn't matter what, Jonathan Tripodi: then your mind disconnects from that part of your body as a protective response. And now that's the situation a lot of us are in, we're constricted in our body where we feel and we're hardened and we're also disconnected from it. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Un until, until such time as it makes itself known. I mean, you can only disconnect for so long. And, and then yes. If, you know, and I didn't even know how long I was disconnected until it, you know, hitting me over the head with like, Hey buddy, look at me. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. That, I mean, it, it accumulates. There's more and more. Pain that accumulates over time. And I talk about it like a cup of water. Like you can add more water to the cup. Mm-hmm. But at some point it's gonna be full and water's gonna flow out and our bodies are very adoptable, but to a point. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: And, um, once we lose our adaptive response, because we've accumulated too much, essentially when our cup is full, then there's just no getting around it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Then the, then the, then the flood alarm starts going off. 'cause the water spilling on the floor, Jonathan Tripodi: the body wants only one thing. It just wants to empty its cup. I tell people all this, it's not, it doesn't have any other agenda. It's, it's meant to be in a flow state. It's meant to not be in a constricted, hard resistant state. Um, so. We're just either saying yes to our body, coming back to flow or no. And transformation can be summed up in that way. It's either no to flow or yes to flow and healing's about saying yes to flow. So what happens in that yes to flow journey is you begin to release those fascial restrictions, come out of contraction and restore the conductivity of the energy we suppressed, allow it to flow and be expressed. And so there's many techniques that treat the body, whether they're self-treatment or body worker techniques. I mean, massage works with muscles. A mild fascia release works with fascia. Rolfing works with fascia, cranial sacral works with fascia. However, I. What we're ultimately wanting to get to is the fear that started this whole chain reaction of tension, constriction, and hardness. We, because if we don't get to that protective response, the origin of that, if we don't overcome our fears, our fear will re Matt Kosterman: resurface over Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Body. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll re perpetuate the same chain reaction of events. A lot of people do that. People who are really physical, really athletic. They're like, I stretch, I do yoga. I um, I get massages. I get a massage, and I'm like, okay, when you get your massage, are you accessing any feelings from your past and releasing them? No. Then you're most likely just getting relief. So you're emptying the cup halfway symptom. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: You're getting symptom relief. You're, you're, you're relieving the symptoms, not the root cause. Jonathan Tripodi: Exactly. Fear's the root cause. Matt Kosterman: And what do you find, I mean, if you could sum up, I mean, I, I have my ideas, but, and I think there's a healer, Marissa Pier, who talks, I think there's four core fears. But what do you, what do you see as the, you know, sort of what are, what are these, if you really, really dig down, what are, what are these fears that everybody that's walking two legs in this planet seem to carry? Jonathan Tripodi: I would say one is fear of, um, letting go of control. Mm-hmm. Um, fear of dying as a result. Yeah. Um, fear of being loved. I'm not lovable. Um, and, uh, those are the top three, which, Matt Kosterman: yeah, which kind of goes to, I mean, I think the level that kind of goes to, I, I'm, I'm not enough. I'm not allowed. I mean, those are, those are the things that showed up for me once we, once we. I'm not, I'm not, ultimately, I'm not lovable. Right? And, and, and they're all, they're all symptomatic of that. And Jonathan Tripodi: we adapt to that experience of, of not being loved early on. And we just get okay with it. We're not okay with it. But we, we, we just somehow, um, concede to the fact that it's not happening and I'm gonna work. It's not ever, Matt Kosterman: it's not ever gonna happen Jonathan Tripodi: and maybe won't ever happen. And I'm just gonna just figure out how to move through life with that assumption. And, um, so then when love actually does show up, we either don't recognize it or there's no room for it to be received. We've, we've, our protection has prevented not only the pain of not being loved from leaving our body. But from, from coming in, Matt Kosterman: or it can, in my case, it, it, it often was overwhelming. It, it felt overwhelming when it did, when it did show up. Um, it was just like, you know, like trying to hold it as if Right. As if you could actually Jonathan Tripodi: love's too big for the constricted spaces that fear is caused in our body. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. That's beautiful. Love is Jonathan Tripodi: that, is that increased amount of, it's that extra volume of energy that when you, when we're in fear, we can't really, there's not enough space. Matt Kosterman: There's no space. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. So that's where fear of death comes in, because not just physically dying, but can you let go of the you that has been afraid of love when love is showing up. Yeah. The ego, Matt Kosterman: the, the, Jonathan Tripodi: yeah. Yeah, the fear-based identity, the programmed identity, the false identity, we've false, we've all identified with ourselves based on our programming and, um, it's really shrunk us down to something quite small and insignificant. We're way bigger, we're the universe. So, and we're certainly love at the core of our existence. So the pain of having to give up your protection of this fear-driven, um, identity that's not worthy of love to give that up. It's huge when you're used to protecting it and identifying with it for so long. Matt Kosterman: It's very threat, it's very threatening to, to, because it's, it's a protector. Jonathan Tripodi: But it's protecting, um, a you that really isn't your real self. And, and so it does become, um, a big initiation when you enter the healing process and you're going to the core of what's behind your pain and suffering, and you realize there's this huge void of love inside of you, these dark, lonely, empty places that are void of love. And you're, you're, you're navigating God, do I allow love in? You know, can I let go of this protecting this space and let love and light come in? It's. Matt Kosterman: It's a moment. So, yeah. So, so talk about that. So, you know, so a person comes in, they're constricted, they're, you know, everything's shut down, clamped off flow's not, not moving. What, what does it, what does a session look like with, with you? What, what, what, what are, you know, uh, give us a little te tell us, take us through, take us through your, you know, your sort of, your, your thought and feeling pattern and how you, how you go about, uh, working with somebody so they, so they don't think that they're gonna come in and, you know, be overwhelmed with this, this outward 'cause you're an, you bring an incredible amount of love to your work and it, and it's, it's beautiful. Um, but so that they understand the process and it's not gonna be this, um, overwhelming, clearly I survived it. So, Jonathan Tripodi: um, I refer to. What we're talking about as, uh, what if we're gonna talk about like how do we get from releasing fascia to overcoming the fear of love. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Tripodi: So let's walk through that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: So let's say that, yeah, let's say you have pain in your back and I apply my hand to your back. So we've all experienced touch in different forms, and touch is one of those powerful things. It can have many different effects. The BMR touch has the effect of releasing fat for restrictions, um, communicating safety so that the nervous system relaxes and. Also has a way of connecting with the person in the body. So the nonphysical part of your nature. So what does that look like? The hand comes down on the body and initially doesn't do anything. It just sits there. Now I call that contact only, and that contact is a nonphysical, um, step in the process. So what I'm doing then is I'm feeling into the body and I'm feeling it, I'm listening. It's a listening step. Gather. You're gathering Matt Kosterman: in, you're gathering information. Yeah, Jonathan Tripodi: I'm feeling for the quality of the tissue, you know, recognizing where it's, if it's hard or contracted, and to what degree. And I'm also feeling for the person in the body. Now this may sound weird, but, and it does take practice, but you have energy. Your essence is energy, as you said earlier, Matt. And with practice, you can develop your capacity to feel the, the essence of a person. And so I establish connection with the body and the person before I start doing anything else. Now, what amazingly happens when you connect with the person in the body is they begin to feel safe. How many of us have had somebody do something to our body and in a way that feels like, wow, that person is. Got kind of an agenda of their own and they're doing something to my body and I might allow it, but emotionally my energy's going to pull back. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Emotionally, I'm not, I'm not consenting. You might be consenting physically, but psychically and emotionally, you're like, whoa, what? Back off. Jonathan Tripodi: Exactly. And so part of that contact only is to establish the connection, not only with the body, but with the person, so that they begin to feel safe in allowing their presence, you know? And so that they don't just disconnect like they did when they got injured or traumatized or yeah, whatever happened. So once that connection takes place with the person and their body, their body begins to relax. That's the first sensation that says to me to go to step two. I don't go to step two until they soften. And once they soften, I go deeper with my pressures and I begin to exert a stretch into their fascia. And I encounter what's called a barrier. And it's a barrier to motion these tensions and these restrictions limit motion. So when you hit a barrier of motion, you're most likely in a fascial restriction or up against the resistance of the nervous system and a contracted muscle. Matt Kosterman: And that, and that motion can be motion of you sinking into an abdomen. It can be the motion of you pulling a, a, an arm or a leg or a neck in, in any, so it's, it's very in degrees. It could be the motion of the cranial sacral and just the, the very subtle motion of the bones of the head. Jonathan Tripodi: You can apply these steps to any part of the body. Exactly. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Now, as a person begins to systematically surrender and soften more and more and more and more, um, the physicality starts to release and then you start to get access to what that physical tension was protecting. You get to the energy of what was suppressed. I talk about BMR as an invitation to let go. It, it's not an agenda and it's also not a, um, done by force. Mm-hmm. The reason is, is because you can't force it. I'm sure if force worked, then there'd be more of that going on. Yeah. But you can't force a person to feel something they don't wanna feel and let go of it. So it's an invitation. So what that means is that the touch, the quality of that touch. I maintain invitation level only. Mm-hmm. It, it, it, it consistently should feel like encouragement, but not forced. So again, another analogy. I help bring people to the door. Mm-hmm. But I don't knock it down. Matt Kosterman: They gotta open it. Jonathan Tripodi: They open it from their side. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. You're consistently, yeah. You're consistently asking for consent in a, in a physical kind of a way. Like, can, can we go there enough? My Jonathan Tripodi: hand is literally my hand and my energy coming through me is knocking on the door so that they can become conscious. 'cause we talked earlier, if you're not conscious of where you've closed the door to a feeling or an experience, you can't open it. And so, but if somebody knocks on it, you're like, holy shit. I can feel that and it feels safe, but I'm also a little nervous because I, I know that there's something behind that door that, um, may be painful or scary. And so they begin to go through their inner process of making those decisions and choices to open that door or not. Mm-hmm. But they have that support system, uh, of that person connecting with them, like you say, with not just physically, but with love and with, um, the unconditional aspect of the touch, which says, if you wanna open it, you can. If you don't, that's okay too. Matt Kosterman: That's okay too. Right. Jonathan Tripodi: And when somebody has all of those elements together, and they already came to you with the desire to open a door. They're more likely to open it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Because it's, it wasn't, it wasn't the doctor that said, go do this. You know, like, it wasn't like a, a take this pill, a prescription. Uh, it's a, it's a, it's a volitional choice. It's a, a, you know, they've made the choice. They're saying, I want to, like, in my case, I said, I, this needs to stop and it's going to stop Jonathan Tripodi: when the conditions are right. There's, there's several elements that when you bring them all together, create the optimal conditions for a person to overcome their fear of letting go. Matt Kosterman: And, and what, and what are the, what are the elements? Jonathan Tripodi: One is education. So it's, it's helpful if a person understands ahead of time, a certain, to a certain extent what, what this is all about. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: The process of transforming body memory. So meaning don't spring it on 'em while they're getting a relaxing massage. Matt Kosterman: Let's talk about your mother. Jonathan Tripodi: Or even not even talk about it. Just touch the place where there's some suppressed going on thinking I'll sneak this. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: This technique in and not having talked about it ahead of time. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And that, that was kind, that was what happened to me in a, in a very, in a very good way, and not with you, but with, um, with my pelvic floor person was instead of, I think I've talked about this in a past episode, instead of doing this very pain, what was typically a painful tissue manipulation in my groin and my, you know, legs and stuff she held. And I, I didn't think I had any psychological problems. I thought I'd fixed all those with 12 years of therapy and. And Zoloft, right. They were, eh, and I've done all this and I've done, well, she touched the inside of my thigh after drawing a little map with some dots, and I burst into tears. 'cause it was like you said, the cup, the cup was overflowing. Not in a good way. And it was just, it was, you know, so there was an invitation, but there was, I wasn't, I, I didn't consciously know I was, I was, you know, going, going into this. And I will say it all turned out fine. You know, Jonathan Tripodi: when a person's ready, you almost can't miss, you know, something. Something's gonna help you to access it. Um, the challenge is when that happens in an environment where people don't understand what's happening, and they inadvertently interpret it as, oh my God, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that as if something wrong happened. Matt Kosterman: Totally. And this person was super supportive and super, you know, right there with me and, you know. Um, under, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, Jonathan Tripodi: well, sometimes that happens. You get lucky and other times it doesn't, you, you know, people around you will interpret what you're, you're letting go process as, as you're, you're a prop. You're, there's something wrong with you. Matt Kosterman: Right. Jonathan Tripodi: You know, people have what's called nervous breakdowns and they're institutionalized. Or they're medicated as a result. And I let people know, look, a nervous breakdown is a natural event. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: It's your body saying, I can't hold onto this anymore. I have to let it go. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you're driving a car or maybe doing something else, not the best to let go. Um, so an. Letting go, uh, environment, like create an environment for yourself or seek an environment where you can do the letting go that your body wants to do and feel supported and safe. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. So, so you have to have, so the, the ingredients here are the, the desire to change a de, a desire to let it go. Right. Education. Jonathan Tripodi: Yep. And as you said, consent based on that. Education based on, okay, thank you for telling me about this. I think I want this experience. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. I would Jonathan Tripodi: like to explore that with you. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Tripodi: And then the next, is that a non force approach? So the touch is invitational at best. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: Encouraging. That actually brings you to the place in your body where you're holding it. So that brings consciousness. So that's the key. You have to have consciousness. So education, consent, your intention to do it. And then, um, oh, what was I saying? Oh, consciousness Enacting your conscious awareness. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: awareness, yeah. Which is ultimately awareness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you bring, you bring those together and magic happens. Often. And then Jonathan Tripodi: last I would say is patience. Because you, even when you knock on the door, there's a process, you know, you're psychologically, biologically, there's this whole process goes into motion and it doesn't necessarily instantaneously happen. Matt Kosterman: Well, sure. 'cause the, the, the body is the, it's the densest of all the forms. It's the slowest to, it's the slowest to change spiritually. You can be there, you can be love and light and, and you know, you can mentally redo all the reading. I know this from experience, but, but when the body's not, if the body's not ready to go there, the body's not ready to go there. Jonathan Tripodi: Go. Exactly. You have to be patient with it. Um, for sure. But persistent. But persistent, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Persistence. Uh, I mean, we did five days together initially almost coming up. Gosh, like right about now is five years ago. Um, 'cause it was literally, I came home three days before the, the, the lockdown and the pandemic, and then I was back a year later to do more work with you and other people in, in Sedona. Um, and then I, it was I think 22 when I came for the first half of the training, I think in 23 for the second half, uh, out in Maui, which is where Jonathan is now. Um, what was I gonna say? Oh, I, I, uh, when we were talking earlier, I forgot to mention, and just a, a testament to, to how powerful this stuff is. I was at a retreat in Mexico in January, and there was a woman there who'd been a caregiver her whole life as a, uh, a disabled daughter. And she'd had a, a neck sprain that she'd gotten as a 2-year-old from being pushed on the playground at nursery school and a, a whiplash. And it showed up throughout her life periodically and due to a, we had done an, uh, a very deep anger release where you're, you know, you, you've been there pounding the pillows right. And, uh, and, and, and she snapped her head and she could not lift her head off of her. She, it, it would, it wouldn't lift whatever that muscle was. And, and so I, I brought these things, these elements together. Do you want, I think I can help you. Do you want me to help you? And we, we laid, had laid her down and, and I did a, a, a neck pole. And, uh, you call it riding the dragon, uh, pulling up under, that's my favorite move. You get under the suboccipital, then you just lift the body up and all kind of stuff, just right. It's amazing. All I I, I, I wanna like teach all my massage therapist this movie. Do do this to me, please. And, and, uh, and so I did, I spent about probably 45 minutes doing that and she still couldn't lift her, her head up. Um, uh, but then she happened to have some muscle relax and so she took them and by the next day it was the, the, the pain was gone. But it was, it was a combination of the physical. But it was also a big part of it was I, I, I believe just somebody being willing, she kept saying, how do, where do I learn this stuff? How do I, do I wanna help? You know, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just receive it. Like she was already onto, how can I give this to somebody else? And, and, and I recognize that, 'cause I do, I've done the same thing in my life. But it was, no, no, just be with it, take it, receive, receive it. Um, and, and then the next day, and for the rest of the retreat, she was fine. I did the same thing to somebody who had, had nerve pain in their hand for, for years and years and years as a result of, of, uh, uh, of an alcoholic spouse and of having to do and do and do. And, and this was really bugging this person's arm. And I did the, the same maneuver with the neck and they said, it's gone. It's, it's gone. It's, uh, so it's, it's, it's an amazing technique. Well, Jonathan Tripodi: you've just described given two great examples of people who. Had traumas in the apps that, that were absent of love. Right. We talked about that. And so it wasn't just your technique, although that was very helpful, but it was also your loving presence. And that's the combination. That's the combination for sure. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. You have to, you have to to, to bring, to bring both. Um, and, and it's a, it's a, I mean, I'll tell everybody, it's a, it's a powerful technique and there are, there are ways to sup there. It also, I found through my journey, you need to support yourself in it. After the fact, it's, it, it, it, it's useful because ultimately we are the source of, of the healing and we are the source of the love for ourselves. We can't, as much as I love Jonathan and he loves me, I can't get that from him every day. I need to bring it and so. Um, maybe talk a little bit about some of the, the, the, you know, postoperative, uh, you know, techniques and movements and things. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. We're, so what you're talking about is the self-care program. The self-treatment program afterwards, Matt Kosterman: because I don't want, I, I, one thing I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm doing my best not to do is, is make people think any of this is necessarily a magic pill. Jonathan Tripodi: Oh yeah. Matt Kosterman: I mean, there's, there, it's Jonathan Tripodi: magic. Matt Kosterman: It's magic. But Jonathan Tripodi: it, it's, it's, Matt Kosterman: right. Jonathan Tripodi: But it's a journey. Matt Kosterman: It's a journey. Jonathan Tripodi: It, yeah. So for sure that your lifestyle often is oriented around survival. Mm-hmm. We're pushing ourselves too hard. We're not taking care of ourselves, we're not eating properly. Uh, we're not getting enough rest and. We're not taking care of the body vehicle that we inhabit. Matt Kosterman: Right. Jonathan Tripodi: You know, stretching it, exercising it. Um, we're not getting into nature very often. We're staying in artificial constructs like a home or a workspace with all kinds of technology. And because you're in survival mode, you, you know, this all works. Mm-hmm. You don't think anything of it. But once you start to heal and feel better, you start reintroducing yourself to these lifestyle habits and they just, they don't feel good. Yeah. And you're no longer numbed out to them. You feel them. And so, changes need to happen. And again, like you say, it happens gradually how you rearchitect your life to a lifestyle that is loving mm-hmm. To you, not just to everyone else. And so, yeah, I, I think it's a balanced approach is best, but let's not underestimate just simple things like eating well and, and rest and unplugging from technology and plugging into nature. Nature's a powerful healer, whether you're just laying on your grass in your yard or going for a walk in the woods or taking a dip in the ocean. You know, all of these things, nature heals. Um, and, but in addition, learning how to let go and enter that, let go state or flow state called unwinding. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. We Jonathan Tripodi: haven't used that term yet in our, in our session today. Matt Kosterman: No, we haven't. No, you're right. Yeah. Body memory recall, but not unwinding. Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: So. What's fascinating is that our body is already intelligently designed to heal itself, as you've mentioned. And what that looks like with body memory is the body begins to move spontaneously in sync with suppressed energy being released. Mm-hmm. So I always tell people, look, you're not gonna have a release of body memory and not know it. You're not gonna be like, oh, you know it. Well, I used to have a client say, he would say like, well, did it release? I'm like, if it did, you would, you would know it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jonathan Tripodi: It's visceral, it's felt, but it also, when energy flows through the body, it moves the body. And so the body assumes all kinds of interesting positions spontaneously. And emotion surface spontaneously, memory surface spontaneously as these energies course through the body, it composite to shake or twitch. It can also enter the vocal chords and instigate sounds to come out. And so all of these physical events of movement, um, is referred to as unwinding. So it's as if all the body, uh, tensions are assumed like we're wound up with the tensions of our past. And so, uh, when we let go of control are body unwinds. Yeah. And so once you've experienced unwinding on the table, because it is different, we're used to being in control of our body and our energies. And so we don't know what it's like really to let go. I know I wasn't and. We rely on alcohol and certain other things to kind of relax us so that we can be more expressive. Right? But once you begin to let go on a deeper level, your body starts to orchestrate the releasing of all these tensions we've accumulated and we start to unwind. Once you have a reference for that, you can reenter the unwinding state on your own. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Which, which, which is, it's, it's marvelous. I mean, I did it. Jonathan runs a twice a year retreat back in Sedona, uh, an unwinding retreat, which is, uh, is super powerful. Uh, and I have, I, because I have done this work with you and also another modality called TRE Trauma Release something exercises, I believe it is where you induce shaking in the lower trunk, um, through stressing out the muscles. Um. I, I've had probably at least a dozen, probably a dozen and a half times in Pilates, uh, over the last two years where I just will shake for anywhere from five to 20 minutes. And sometimes it's accompanied by an emotional release and sometimes it's not. And there again, is a testament to Janelle, who is my Pilates instructor, who knows that what's up? She doesn't suppress it. It's a testament to what I've learned from you to be like it. You know, at one time I would've suppressed that. I would've been, oh, this is, you know, and I would've shut it down. And now I'm so grateful when these things happen because something old is coming out. Jonathan Tripodi: Absolutely. Matt Kosterman: It's great. It's amazing. Jonathan Tripodi: And you always feel better afterwards. Like there's a piece, always feel better afterwards. Calm her. Something Matt Kosterman: moves. Jonathan Tripodi: So I use the analogy again of like a two or 3-year-old. I said, if you need a, if you need a visible model of what it's to be in a flow state with your body. Just watch these little ones because they haven't learned to suppress yet. Matt Kosterman: Suppressed. Jonathan Tripodi: So when they're, when they're angry, it's not just the emotion, it's, you're hearing about it, you're also watching body language. Um, the way that they posture themselves. It's a full body experience, and that's the case with every emotion that they might have, even when they're happy, right? That the energy of happiness isn't just local, it's physical as well. What we're trying to do is remember and surrender to this flow state in our own bodies as adults, to let energy flow and let our bodies flow and let our voice flow and our emotions flow all as a single unit. And that's what I call unwinding. And you can self unwind and with practice it becomes a, a very powerful self-treatment tool. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, no doubt. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for round two here. Fingers crossed that this all worked. Jonathan Tripodi: Thank you, Matt. Matt Kosterman: Um, I always love chatting with you. Well, I wanna Jonathan Tripodi: mention too that this is a lot of information to digest and I did write a book called Freedom from Body Memory, and it's a great resource for people who may wanna learn more, but need to kind of go back into some of the material we talked about. And the book is great 'cause it gives science, it gives personal testimonials, um, live case studies, you know, people I'd work with. And, and then it also gives my own personal history and the journey I took with discovering body memory and, and my own traumas and healing from them. So there's a lot to be gained from that. It's a great book. Yeah, it's a great resource. I have an online video series called The Tripod Paradigm. And it's also, uh, kind of a educational tutorial that you might also enjoy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I'm gonna website, I'm gonna have all those, we'll have all those links in the, wherever this is going. Jonathan Tripodi: Okay, great. Thank you Matt. The Matt Kosterman: links will be there for sure. Jonathan Tripodi: And thank you everyone who came to listen. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, thanks so much. Um, like I said, wonderful to see you. Um, I need to get Maui on my list, uh, soon. I can't, it's been two, it's been two years now. February, all the wa the whales. Wow. Jonathan Tripodi: Yeah. Co please come back anytime. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I will. Well say hello to Angie and to Lily and uh, you guys be well. Jonathan Tripodi: You too brother. Thank you.