Latest / Monero Talk / Vini Barbosa’s unfiltered take on the Monero selfish mining attacks and PoW | EPI 360
Transcript
- Doug Alrighty, we are live with Vinny Vinny. What's going on, man? Hey, dog. Vinny Thank you very much for having me here, great to be here to talk about Monero. Doug Of course, of course, and I'm sure we'll be talking about other things as well, right? Yeah, yeah. Wow. You're a lead man. Yeah. Yeah, if you can try to try to try to retweet I just tweeted out there guys. We got only 13 live viewers right now We just we just started but let's get a good crowd in here like and retweet. I know I didn't give this Too much of an announcement so we didn't have much time to promote it But yeah Vinny if you can retweet it on your end I think we'll get a get we'll get a good crowd in here Obviously, there's a lot of people in Monero land and in privacy digital cash land that really have their eyes on Monero right now Because Monero is going through a bit a bit of a crisis Right whether whether it's you know, whether people think it's actually having an effective things or not. The fact is Monero is at one of these points. It's been at them added in the past Where it needs to make decisions on how it's going to proceed if it's going to need to make certain updates Monero is under attack like it always is So the question is basically not will it survive because I mean I'm certainly fairly confident it will but which Options it decides to use Towards bolstering self against these attacks. So I brought Vinny on today. I've never had Vinny on the show before I don't think we've ever spoken before right? Were you ever a Monero topia? I don't think so, right? Vinny No, no, I only spoke to you like via DMs on X, but never, right, never H-Face, man. Doug So yeah, I mean, yeah, pleasure to meet you. I don't know a lot about you. Obviously, I see some of your tweets, but I never did like a deep dive. I know you really know your stuff. You know the tech. You understand this space very well. I just read your article, actually, before jumping on. You just posted an article today on one of the proposals that's being put forward to help bolster Monero against REORX. So we'll get into that. What is that one called? It's called... Publish or Perish? Publish or Perish. Yeah, which I love. That's a great name. It's a great name. Yeah, so exciting times in Monero. We have things like publish or perish being proposed and deciding whether or not we're going to move forward with it. So Vinny, why don't we start by allowing you to introduce yourself so the audience can learn more about you and actually so I can learn more about you as well. Vinny Yeah, so I have a background in communication. I'm not a journalist for formation. I have worked in banking. I worked in one of Brazil's largest bank, Bantutu, Brazil. It was my first job. I also worked with telecom, always in the marketing department. But I'm not a corporate guy. I hate the corporate life, and I moved from that. And one way that I found to move away from the corporate life was to start writing about the things that I cared about, with the app being crypto, being privacy, open source software, and so on. So all these things related. I have writing for many different media outlets. I'm from Brazil. I started writing from Brazil media outlets. So Coin Times, Pertaldo Beach Coin, that is one of the largest media outlets. They talk about Bitcoin and crypto in Brazil. And I also work for Finbaud. And right now, I'm a freelancer. So I have some clients that I often am writing for in a contract deal. I write for Agri Cipher. That is a new newsletter for Agriism. We have Brendan from Agri's Next, Susan, and a few other good names of Agriism there, writing there. That's awesome. We have our own day and others. My payments there are in Monero. And Agri Cipher takes subscription for the newsletter in Monero, and other cryptocurrency as well. But as far as I know, I am not even sure if I'm allowed to say that, but that's really cool. And I'll say it anyway. I think that all payments are being converted to Monero. So the treasure of the business is in Monero. So great business. And I take my payments from them in Monero, in XMR. I also write for CoinSpeaker as a freelancer, which is where this article you mentioned was published. They pay me in crypto. I take all my payments in crypto. I only take payments in crypto. I don't take payments in fiat. And I also have other works that I do. I take my payments in Nano for jigiro.com. That is a website for stories that are in public domain. So we publish many stories, many for kids. And people can read. It's a fun job. And that's what I'm doing besides yapping on Agri. Doug What's the thing? The thing for kids? I missed a lot. Vinny And what is that? It's a website, mainly for children's stories. It has nothing to do with crypto, which is a great way to take my mind away of crypto for a few times in my day. But my payments are in crypto. Oh, your payments are in crypto for that. Yeah. Doug Super cool, man. I love that you're working on the app. So have you always been into these ideas, algorithm opting out? Give us a little backstory there. Vinny Yeah, well, always, not always, but I think that at least from, I don't know, 2017, I guess I started reading about libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism, algorithm, privacy, start to read about the Bitcoin and so on. Doug And was it that you got into crypto before that and then sort of reading about these things or was it like Reading about those things that led you to crypto Vinny Yeah, yeah, it was more like that. So I was super busy at that time. I had I was trying to to make a company that I have just founded work. So I was super busy working like 12 hours a day to make things work. And I really didn't have time to dive dive into crypto. And so I lost Bitcoin back then I lost all the hype and the first big cycle that was 2017. But yeah, I jumped in 2020. Because I don't like to like aping things I don't understand. That's really not me. I'm super for in that sense, a conservative guy with my money. I take a lot of care. We were Doug my money. Well, I mean, I feel like Monero has given you plenty of time though, and Zcash too. I know you're right. I know you're into Zcash. So these are opportunities that are still, you know, very much growing, right? As opposed to some of these other things that have already blown up and I think. Vinny My foreign crypto actually didn't even last much with Bitcoin so I got in in Bitcoin and like two months later I was already like diving into Monero and Nano mainly because of the of the the problems of being a peer-to-peer electronic cash system I really thought that these two will deliver in better this idea and so I'm actually writing and supporting and studying and using Monero and Nano mainly since 2020 like half 2020 in the first half of 2020 and Zcash was just a recent thing so I ignored Zcash for a odd time and I started diving a bit deeper into Zcash a month ago I think so so Doug Oh, yeah. All right. So you're recent to Zcash. That's interesting. Okay. I thought you'd been, uh, okay. Vinny Go ahead. Doug I thought you were more of a Zcash like OG, talking about it for a long time. Okay, that's interesting. Vinny know. I'm quitting about it a lot because I'm super excited about the things I'm learning because I'm learning so I'm studying and I'm sharing what I'm discovering so that's just it. Doug Yeah, and that's kind of how our communication started to write because I was trying to get nano involved in Monero topia last year And now this year I was like oh, maybe he could help me get nano and zcash involved I know there's people watching this right now like Hey, there's like there's there's haters out there nano not so much Zcash more right like there's like Monero maxis, but I I would love to have zcash involved They were involved. They did one guy did a talk remotely To to Monero topia as ago and actually was a really good talk people go back and watch and he was kind of comparing Monero and zcash basically their funding systems, right and he was very critical of zcash Actually, there's a guy that was from zcash and he was very critical of zcash and So it was great to have him, but I'd love to have some people there in person I know yeah, I'm not saying you're the guy but that that's that's how our conversation started So yeah with you know, maybe you can help me get zcash and the nano teams involved It'd be really cool to have them there Doing panels a proof of work proof of stake panel nano. I mean obviously they're not they don't fit the privacy coin Bucket, but they fit the digital cash bucket and they're doing some interesting things Obviously in terms of how their consent consensus algorithm works, they're super low no fees, right? So it'd be interesting to get their takes on things on how to be resistant To you know, these proof-of-work attacks So yeah, just just to get the word out there on that stuff. And that's how I started talking to Vinny, right? Vinny Yeah, absolutely. And I'll help you the best way I can. I have some contacts, nothing big, but I think... Yeah, well, Doug We'll see what happens. And yeah, no, I've enjoyed reading your takes. I didn't realize you were in that much drama with so many people in Monero, honestly, when I went to get you. Like, I knew you were saying things that people were a little upset with. I think they were upset with you recently, obviously, because maybe you're being more open to proof of stake. I assume that was one of the criticisms, because there's this huge anti-proof of stake movement, or cult, that's part of Monero. I don't consider myself part of that. I'm open to researching potential new ways of bolstering the prequel, right? Not saying, let's do it tomorrow, but let's look into it. There's some people are like, no, conversation's over. How dare you even wanna research it? Like, I'm not understanding the people that are against wanting to fund Luke Parker to research this concept, which Zcash had done research on this, right? The trailing confidential, the trailing layer, right? Confidential layer. Vinny Yeah, I still didn't get there in Zcash, but I know they are researching things to get an alternative to proof of work. I think like a hybrid chain, there are ongoing discussions on the GitHub repository, and I was reading those recently. But I really can't really talk how deep they are into the proof of stake research. I only know that they are researching and that's it's all about right though. So Doug There's it is a paper on the cut Vinny We need to study the alternatives, we need to consider everything. If we didn't consider everything, we wouldn't be here. Monero wouldn't exist if it were closed minds. We would try to be using Bitcoin with BlackRock, right? Doug Right. That's what differentiated Monero from Bitcoin is the fact that we, you know, pivoted as needed. We upgraded as needed. We didn't castlify, right? We said, all right, we need to add privacy. Let's see this. We need to fork. There was a time when Monero was forking every like two years, every year, every six months, I think at one point, like I'm not saying, you know, that's ideal. We want to move away from that and we are, but there's maybe a few big tweaks that still need to be made. Full chain membership proofs. I don't think anybody would deny that that's like a good, big, major tweak to make, right? Like I think most everybody's on board with that. Maybe there are some other ways to potentially do it. But everybody's on board with moving away from ring signatures and upgrading to a full anonymity set. But this proof of work, proof of stake thing, people are, it's weird. They're bringing baggage to it. Like, you know, get the words out of your mind, proof of work, proof of stake, and just look at the potential solutions. You can label them how are, you know, like labeling them as, as being evil just because it has some aspect of proof of stake in it. Like there's that too, right? Some of these things are like the, we could get into it a little bit. But the, the finality layer, you know, my understanding of it, right? Like you would still be mining with random X, you'd still be producing blocks with random X. And the finality layer would just be validators that are doing proof of stake to come to consensus, similar to the way the 10 block lock works. Like it would replace the 10 block lock, but it wouldn't replace the proof of work mining portion of Monero that would be creating the blocks. I mean, I don't know that's, you know, maybe it sounds, and then there's those that I guess it sounds too good to be true. They're like, well, though, but because that finality layer is there, ultimately it's proof of stake. I rough you out if you want to get into that a little bit. Vinny Yeah, I am super skeptical with the hybrid model because I don't understand it well enough. So I know there are chains that are trying it. XANO is trying it. And there are other chains that are trying. I think Dash has it as well. And I don't know it well enough. But in my understanding, the main criticism would be to liveness. So if you depend on the proof of stake, if you tend to reach finality, maybe if you have some issues in the proof of stake layer, you can delay liveness on the monitor blockchain. So it could somehow maybe open space for some types of censorship. I think that's the main concern, at least from my understanding. Doug Well, how about this overarching concern that just fundamentally, in a proof of stake system, even in this finality layer system, somebody with enough resources, obviously we know somebody with enough resources can mess with proof of stake. I mean proof of work, but somebody with enough resources could acquire enough Monero to where essentially they're controlling all the stake. And there's this fear that we don't know who has Monero right now, which is the beauty of Monero. But we don't know, even if governments have a decent amount, we've seen these dark markets get taken down. We know they had a lot of Monero and they've gotten taken down. Where is that Monero? So I do think that's an interesting argument. That's an interesting consideration. Is that going to be a problem if the government's already sitting on a large stack of Monero? Because they've also said publicly that they don't sell their, they don't sell the Monero, they just hold it essentially. They don't put it back out in the public, whether they're destroying it, sending it to a burning it or whatever it is, they don't put it back out there. We have to assume they're just holding it. And that could, that's an interesting argument. Vinny That's a totally legit concern. I totally, I am totally on board with that. And I had this question before, like, I think Monero, because of how Monero is designed, that you can trace the coins and you don't know, there is no accountability at all about who is holding these coins. I think this is the best argument about not implementing a full proof of stake model to Monero. And I think maybe Monero is limited on the proof of work side of things because of that. And maybe... Well, I mean, but... Doug Zano figured out how to do my understanding is they figured out how to do private proof of stake Although I think there was recently some you know, some attack what happened But I mean, you know, and they use Monero Essentially worked with Monero devs or work the comb from the Monero research lab at the time To develop zarcanium, I believe it's called. So I mean we know there's iterations of it. It's possible So I wouldn't I wouldn't count that out but I do see this this kind of argument that's being made that fundamentally Proof of stake is potentially more susceptible to complete takeover. And if there is a takeover It's like there's no coming back from the takeover. Yeah, right. Yeah Vinny I disagree. I think that proof of stake is proving itself and it's all experimentation, right? So we are all experimenting all the systems that we have available. Proof of stake has been proving itself like more resilient for decentralization and a system that is decentralizing more over time as opposed to proof of work. So if we look at data empirically, we have seen big proof of work networks centralizing more over time. So we have Bitcoin. I mean, come on, that's the biggest evidence we have. We have Antpool and Foundry USA dominating the the mining, the the the hash age of the network. And this wasn't like that five years ago or 10 years ago. So Bitcoin has been centralizing over time. We see that in Zcash. Zcash has been centralizing. It has, I think it's via BTC. It's one of the pools. They have a lot of ratchet, more than 50 percent. So the network has been centralizing over time. And that's why they are looking at alternatives. And that's great because they are looking to solutions. So my and for everything that I saw from proof of stake, proof takes it really hard to bootstrap. So if we're starting from the zero, a proof of stake network that it will start more centralized because of the nature of distribution, the money and at the same time that we're distributing the money, you are also validating and reaching consensus on the transactions. But as more the as long as the proof of stake network is live, it appears to be decentralizing over time. And we have seen that in most of the top of stake networks that have been decentralizing over time. So if we look empirically, that appears to be the case. Maybe it won't for the next 10 years. But for now, what we know is proof of stake is a very good system for decentralization and for consensus and for security. So, yeah, I definitely wouldn't put that idea aside, although I have a few concerns about how proof of stake will be implemented to Monero. But my main problem and all the drama is simply because I was considering this option and I was saying, hey, guys, let's consider this option. Don't don't fucking attack the ones that are researching and doing the hard work, trying to find solutions because we need solutions at the current state. Doug Was it basically the Monero society that was attacking you or was it other groups? Vinny And there was a lot of I guess it was. Doug there's just a whole anti-proof-of-stake group out there. I mean, a big part of that is... Vinny DM, it was on comments, it was on many, many, many. Doug I mean, that very much feels like part of the attack that's going on is creating this drama in the community where they're trying to halt things, right? And it's funny, and they're doing it away where they're saying, oh, we're gonna get co-opted, right? Somebody's trying to take over, right? They're trying to hijack us. So because of that, we shouldn't do anything. I mean, that sounds like a hijacking, right? If traditionally we always did things, and now we're gonna go in the direction where we don't do things, that sounds like we've been hijacked, right? We're no longer doing what we normally do. There's a new group of people that came in and said, no, no, no, no, no, no, stop. Everything, stop. Everybody, stop. Don't even consider options of upgrading to proof of stake. Keep everything away. Everything's working fine. That's a little sus to me, and to the point where they're not even willing to talk about it, and they're like, shut it down. No, we're out. If we do this, they're trying to shut down the conversation around the topic. Vinny That's exactly what Bitcoin core did in the blockchain war, in the fork wars, in the block size wars. The Bitcoin core developers were the ones trying to shut everybody down and say, no, don't do anything, stop like that. And we saw what that becomes. So we have BlackRock now. Doug I got my eight month over here in her bouncer so if you see me randomly smiling to the side that's why Vinny Yeah, I have my one year one is leaping. Thanks God. Doug Uh, BC has some good comments here, uh, which one is more likely government trying to buy more than 50% of a network stake or spending money in short bursts bursts to censor proof of work. Right. So his point is like, yes, there's this potential attack that happened can happen against proof of stake. It can be co-opted, but we're already seeing it happen with proof of work, right? There's been no double spend, but they certainly affected the network, whether this is governments, you know, some government behind it, or it's just cubic, uh, who is, you know, literally just some phenomenon, some new, some, some new invention, right? So some guy came up with this idea. Uh, yeah, granted it's, it's a scam, right? He's not, I mean, it's seemingly a scam. I don't know. Is he actually building this AI system? Whatever. But the, the pool component is just an interesting kind of, you know, game theory thing, right, that he came up with. Um, and it's really just an attack on pools and he just created an extra incentive for everybody to come into his pool, right? And then he's just giving you this little token that's like, you know, that's gaining value only because more people are coming into the pool, essentially. Um, but, uh, it is an attack on pools, right? Whether it's Monero or Bitcoin, and it is not theoretical. We're actually seeing it happen. So unless we just don't care about that attack and we're saying, well, it's not really disruptive, then sure, we can leave things as be. But I think we all agree that something needs to be done. Even if we ignore all the proof of stake, there's, there's tweaks that need to be done to just improve how our current consensus is working with in terms of proof of work. And that could be the next topic we get into the article you wrote, uh, one of the most recent proposals. Um, yeah, why don't we, why don't we get into that? I think you did a great write-up kind of explaining what this most recent proposal is, this publish or perish proposal. Vinny Yeah, so the proposal came open source on August 27 in the Research Lab repo from the Monero Project organization and GitHub. I forgot the name of the of the proposal. But it's a very interesting proposal. I think it could mitigate the attack as it is now. So the proposal basically is subdivided in two super proposals. One that is easier to implement, that involves a soft fork that would basically just make self-mining less profitable for entities that have less than 50% of the network hash hate, which seems to be the case of cubic pool right now. So they have approximately one third of the network, maybe less. It's really hard to know exactly how much they have because it's not constant. They have these marathons that they do. All of a sudden, a lot of machines are plugged into the network and are generating hash hate. But this is not constant. These are marathons. These are sprints. They are not even marathons, in my opinion. They are hard to measure exactly how much they can reach because of the lack of constancy. For you to know exactly how much hash hate pool has, you need to measure how much blocks they are mining in a period of time. The smaller the period of time, the smaller the sample, the harder it is to really know how much these guys have. So, yeah, that's a perfect PR stunt, as some have said. It's designed to be that way. It's designed to frighten. It's designed to generate confusion. But we still need to talk about that. So I wrote this article. It wasn't the only article I wrote about this thing. I wrote like five articles about that in this past month for a coin speaker, but also in my personal X account. This was one of the reasons I got some attacks. So I had even a friend from Brazil that is super into Monero. We used to talk a lot about Monero and used to laugh about Bitcoin Maxis via DM. And all of a sudden the guy said, hey, you need to stop talking about the cubic self-mining attack. I'm not talking about that. So you are helping them with the fun and you are part of the problem. Doug I mean, Arctic Mine, when in this first game, he's like, no, I think it's better if everybody talks about it, keep talking, you know, get the information out there so that people realize that ultimately it is a scam, right? And when people go to sell their cubic and everybody starts dumping their cubic and realizing it's just kind of a pyramid scheme, that, you know, the sooner that information gets out there, obviously it will affect things. And then obviously just the idea that, you know, we need to confront the issue and fix it. I think now I'm recalling, I think one of the criticisms was that maybe the way you were, I think you declared that there was a 51% attack. Did you? Vinny I never I never did that. I was actually did you say that did you say that and that? Is really interesting to say because people don't know what happens in the in the background of things I mean Doug But the fact is since then there there hasn't been one obviously But it does appear like they have the ability to pull it off if they want to but yeah Vinny didn't hold on on a 51% attack for for long. They only, they maybe can do that in these prints, but it's not sustainable. I was talking at the time that the guys were accusing me of FUD and of talking about the 51% attack. I was actually talking with five different editors from different media outlets and trying to explain to them that their, their report was inaccurate. And there never never happened a 51% attack. I did that to adjusting balls. I did that to a lot of other editors that I won't Doug OK, yeah, yeah, Justin Bonds was the one that really, like, yeah, like, required that there was. Vinny Justin Bolz deleted the post he first made. He first made a post that was live for like two minutes. I commented. He liked my comment, deleted the post, and posted again without the 51%. The first post he made about that. Without the 51% saying he never credited me for that. But yeah, I think I was part of this illusion. He later came back into that for some reason. I don't know why, but yeah. I mean, I was trying to inform people. I never said that that cubic pool had 51% of the hash eight. I don't know how people came to that thinking. I challenged them. I said, okay, if you say I'm talking about the 51%, show me the post where I do that. And they never did. And they just blocked me or called me names like. Doug I feel like the Monero people are good at that. They're good at being mean. Guys, I've seen a lot of great comments come in. BC, thank you for all the great comments. Obviously, I'll bring them up. But if you can, please use xmrchat.com slash MoneroTalk to send your Monero-based Super Chats. We've got to use it, guys. You don't have to send $10. You can send $0.10. Hopefully, we're not being deeply re-orged, and your transaction will go through. See you, Monero. Hey, let's be honest about it, guys. It's affecting the network. They can't. What's beautiful about Monero is they can't censor transactions because there's no way to differentiate one transaction from the other. But they can disrupt the network, slow it down, make it harder for transactions to go through. And that's not ideal. That's not ideal. We have crack in exchange that was closing down deposits and withdrawals because of this. Vinny The financial network needs to be reliable. That's all it is about. If we want to have a serious financial network that people will use as money, it needs to be reliable. And right now it is. Doug still it's still it's you know it's not like listen I mean even Bitcoin right Bitcoin you got to rate you know 10 minutes for your transaction to confirm right so but yeah these these disruptions are are not ideal and we should fix it right we should come up with if we're gonna completely stick with proof of work forever we need to at least mitigate the ability to re-org and I think there's some really good ideas being thrown out there right now which is beautiful to see so that's the that's the silver lining of what's going on right we talked about the bad part which is people being tribal stupid people that aren't even like contributing that aren't you like the intelligent devs just like you know the guy like the people that just are here to that they want the Monero number to go up right or I don't know what the hell they want or they want to maybe disrupt Monero and hurt it but like the real smart people they're having great conversations I mean I've never seen the Monero research lab more active than it is right now right we got body who obviously a very intelligent guy but he never is like said all right let me try to like builds you know contribute to actual the protocol and development and now he's essentially building a way to test some of these ideas out which is super cool so like all types of people are contributing and offering ideas obviously yeah Vinny and tough times, tough times come to make us stronger. So... Doug Right the concern would be if it was like kind of crickets right now, right if this happened in like some other crypto And everybody just kind of sitting on their hands. We were having the opposite We're having like strong debates a lot of ideas being put out there Exactly. So out of out of all the things you're hearing right now in terms of the proof-of-work side Things for mitigating what are what do you see is perhaps some of the best ideas things we should implement Vinny Yeah, I think the publisher or parish proposal, I'm not super technical. I'm not a dev, a software engineer, but from what I saw, I think the publisher parish proposal should be live, like ASAP, like as soon as possible. Let's do it because it will give people more confidence. It will solve some issues, it will make Cubic pull life harder. So let's make life harder for them. I don't see many negative arguments to that. I know because I don't know if you know it and if people watching here know it, but the the publishing parish or parish proposal is based on a paper that was published for Bitcoin in 2017. So it has been studied for a long time. There are some tradeoffs. Of course, there are always tradeoffs on software design. But I don't see many negative reasons to don't push it as soon as possible to make this guy's life harder to at least make them less profitable. And maybe if they are less profitable, some miners will jump off because these guys are in for the money. So, yeah, I think this should go. And then there is the hard fork that that would be an extension for the the publisher parish proposal that is the reward splitting. And I see more counter arguments for that, and I still need more time to digest the tradeoffs of the reward splitting. I know there is something like increasing the block threshold for 20 blocks for confirmation wallets would be to to change that. There is always there will also be some changes on the fees and in other stuff. I think block time and I'm not sure about that this last one. But yeah, there are more tradeoffs. And this one needs to take a bit more time of consideration. But the soft fork, I think, should be live as soon as possible. And we need to continue researching because these are all short time solutions and we need to improve in Monero. Doug Well, not even short-term. They're incremental, right? Like they're all, like when Arctic Mind keeps driving home, right? You know, the hole is greater than the sum of the parts, right? And he's like, you know, that's how Monero's always worked, right? You have ring signatures with stealth addresses, with confidential transactions, and all those things together make it untraceable, right? So these incremental additions, all of them will bolster in various different ways and contribute. And as long as we're looking at what the cost side of it is, right? So we got to look at what the effects are. There's never just all good effects. There's always some negative, right? And we just implement and add the ones that where the benefits outweigh the costs, right? And so some of these ones that are being thrown out seem like they're pretty low, like very low-hanging fruit. Like I said, this one, it could start with a soft fork, so there's not even a hard fork. We don't even need to like, you know, reach the bin. I'm sure we will, right? And we'll do that. And then I think the other one that's being thrown, that's like kind of really maybe near the tippy top of possibilities is the defensive mining. I think, what is it called? Defensive mining? I don't know. The defensive. That was the one that FluffyPony proposed. I think unless things have changed in a week and now like people have realized, no, no, no, no, no way. That one's bad. But that one was kind of like boiling up to the top too. And I see like that could be done. The thing that Baldy is, you know, one of Baldy's suggestions is kind of boiling to the top as well. And I don't think implementing one necessarily negates the other. Like we could implement various incremental things that will all help make selfish mining essentially less attractive, right? I mean, basically, we need to change the incentive model for something like Cubic to no longer exist. PrivacyOG, tip 25 cents, thank you so much for sending the super chat, man. Should we first explore all options regarding dealing with selfish mining and risk the 51% attack in a proof of work realm before looking at proof of stake or hybrid? I would say no, actually, because I mean, if we if we all miraculously are like, yo, we got to do proof of stake, and we're all doing it right, like we're all on board, everybody's in, and we're all on board, 100% of everybody's like, let's do a proof of stake. Even to turn the ship with that, it's going to take two years, right? To come up with the tech, to, you know, make sure there's no holes in it, right? We got to we got to review things, even that is going to take two years if everybody's on board now today, right? So we got plenty of time until it's actually going to be implemented. So we might as well start researching it now, and then exploring the options now and vetting the options now so that in two years, three years from now, if we finally do decide that it's worth doing, or we're seeing that these mitigating factors on the proof of work side aren't really working as planned, then we're ready to implement proof of stake would be my my response. Doug I assume you would agree with that, right? Like Vinny Yeah, yeah 100% Doug Yeah. Oh, wow. We got a big super chat. Oh, wow. No name tipped 262 dollars. Thank you so much. Is that basically a Monero? Is that is that one Monero? We should we should be showing this in XMR actually. Wow. Thank you so much, man. No name. Thank you. I think that was our biggest Monero super chat we've ever gotten on XMR chat. Very cool. Congratulations. Yeah. That that that any case through it confirmed to confirm. Vinny Yeah, that's great. Congratulations, man. And that's a bit of a discussion proposal, and this is a great feedback, I guess. This big tip is a great feedback that the community is open to discussions besides a loud minority on X. Doug 100% yeah, like I said, I'd be suspicious of those that don't even want to like talk about things, right? Yeah Now I know so the beef that you had with body What was that again because I know but you really you really am Tim up and you obviously I'm a tremendous body fan You'll never get me to say a bad thing about body So I don't know what went down there maybe maybe it's just like if you guys are talking face-to-face type of thing It would I have a feeling it would work itself out pretty quick Vinny Yeah, but body started to train some acquisitions against me. I tried to be respectful and he kept doing like, you are more easy cash shield. As I said, like the cash is a super recent thing, so I'm not. Doug but it was because of things you said about Zcash or because of like criticisms we made of Monero. Vinny was like, I was talking about the cubic thing, of course, just reporting things objectively, I wasn't even saying like, this is a terrible thing, I was just saying this is happening, and we should look at it. And at the same time, I was saying like, hey, look, the Zcash shield pull is increasing. So that's great. But they are unrelated things. And he was like, this is sus. So you were talking bad about Monero and now she's talking positive about Zcash, come on. So you are an infiltrated guy and some things like that. He didn't say that directly. But he was implying that there was something something off. I tried to explain to him that there was nothing off. He kept insisting on it. I asked him to show me proof that I was doing what he was doing. He said no. And I blocked him because I'm Doug ...proof that you were doing what? That you were... Vinny like food and I got enough. I'm, I'm sorry. Doug Better we did a Monero talk than a Monero topia then right? I mean it was body I'm sure I'll talk about it tomorrow with body. We'll see Vinny I have been, we have discussed some things before, we had spaces before to discuss things as well related to Monero and other stuff. I don't know what happened. I understand that there is a lot of things going on. Doug It's hard to communicate on X, too. Emotionally, yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Which is a shill for Monero Topia Conference? Vinny, maybe you could come. That would be great. Great to have you. Vinny Yeah, which will be this year. Doug Mexico City, again, same venue, same place. It's a real meeting of the minds. It's so much better than X, right? It's all the conversations in person without any... Obviously, there's some negative going on, but really, I'm really not. I mean, everybody's just hanging and talking and chatting and coming to consensus on things and bringing an open mind. It is really great. So yeah, we'd love to have you, man. I think you'd be a great contribution to the conference. I really do. Vinny Yeah, I'll try. It's not easy. I just finished a renovation in my house and it's a bear market and all my money is on crypto. Okay. Well, I'm more poor than I already am. Doug who knows but it's it's in February it's in February you know I don't know Monero zcash they could they could pump um detective mining though yes that's the other proposal not uh defensive mind it's detective mining so the pools are I don't know I don't know what that one I don't know the details on it um but yeah it's also like a it's also just something that only the pools need to do to basically upgrade it's not a hard fork um so yes it's highly being proof of stake is only good for the price I wouldn't say it's only but that's one I put that in the plus side of because that's the other thing I don't get too like you have a large part of the anti-proof of stake crowd is also the pro number go up crowd which I find a little ironic because if you want number to go up some of these proof of stake ideas what I think inevitably help not hurt that situation I mean as we've seen with other proof of stake coins right Vinny Yeah, I disagree that proof of stake is only good for the price. I really like proof of stake. But as I said, it's really hard to implement because the early days are very tough and very centralized. So things can fail really quickly. But yeah, price definitely helps proof of stake because the more expensive it is to acquire a larger part of the network in coins, the more the more secure the network is. It's not true for proof of work. I think it's actually the opposite. The more the price goes up, the more the network becomes vulnerable because it's more valuable to attack that the reward for an attack is bigger because you can win more from, for example, opening shards against the network and you call disruption, the price drops and you profit from shards. But the price of the infrastructure won't go up as fast as the price of the coin, in my opinion. And I guess it's not only my opinion. We are seeing that with Bitcoin. The cost, the network had to secure the network in the early days, proportional to Bitcoin market cap was higher than today. So today we have like a far higher market cap for the cost of securing the network. So Bitcoin network is more vulnerable as the price goes up. And this is the opposite in proof of stake networks. I don't know if you're just saying Bitcoin is more of my mind, but I don't know if made sense the way I said it. Doug Yeah, you're saying Bitcoin is becoming more vulnerable, basically, because what's securing the network in terms of ratio to the value of the network itself is going down, right? The network. Right. Right. Right. Vinny And this is the same for all networks. I think Monero is a bit more resistant to that because of RandomX and because of ASIC resistance, which I've used to think in the last five years, I was like a super advocate of RandomX and ASIC resistance. And it was like, oh, hey, this is the solution because I saw this addressing many of these issues I'm talking about, that Bitcoin had and another ASIC proof of work networks had, we discovered some new vulnerabilities for RandomX and the ASIC resistance model with this option mining attacks. I had never bought it. Doug really see that being a random X vulnerability. It was an attack on the pools, on the incentive network of the pools, right? Vinny It's easier to get hash8, right? You can render hash8 easier, you can get... Doug Yeah, but it wasn't really about renting hash rate to get they started a pool and they said come mine over here So like if you're already mining What they stole they moved people over that were mining elsewhere into their pool Yes, they also have rented hash rate using the Monero that they're getting right or whatever They're you know, there's those that are doing that but like the real attack was on the incentive models of the pools themselves having this extra You know shit coin that comes along With with your with what you're already getting right and like that's the real I mean the ASIC thing mitigates that a little bit. I think it would be but Fundamentally, I think the same attack could happen on something like Bitcoin At least these guys thinks it could happen on Doge right? They're gonna go after Doge next, right? So let's say they go after Doge and we start to see it that attack work I mean, obviously Doge is an ASIC, but it's script mind I don't know. I don't really see it being Indicative of random acts being a flaw. It's just proof for work Consensus in general and the fact that you can create pools. Yeah Vinny A fundamental issue that anyone have a computer that can mine Monero somehow, right? So if I want, I can use my domain computer to mine Monero, but I can do that for Bitcoin. It wouldn't be relevant. I can do that, but it wouldn't be relevant that the amount of computation that I would be contributing to the network wouldn't be relevant. So it's easier to get more people contributing. They of course, they can do that in ASIC networks, but they would need to talk to a very specific public that is the public that has ASICs, either ASICs in their home or that can acquire this ASICs somewhere. And there is also the thing that. Doug I don't know. Yeah, I don't really see it that way. I'm not saying it that way because Vinny decentralized. So there are fewer manufacturers producing A6. Yes, of course. It's more. Doug Get all that I agree with all that I mean, but I don't see this attack be in indicating that Random X is worse than a six. I think yes a six I think make it make it more hardened, but it's still Susceptible to the same attacked fundamentally, I mean you could have you could be some big my mining company You know, you got your a six running you got your you know, you're my you're mining your Bitcoin And then they're like, all right Well, if we just move to this pool over here We're gonna get more money in in terms of value of what what the crypto is worth and we'll just we're dumping it anyway I guess we'll do that now the argument is well We're not gonna do that because we're so invested in Bitcoin that we don't want to hurt its price Essentially by doing that but at some point it's cost-benefit, right? These guys are in it just for the money now Are they really ultimately yes, there's those that are fundamentally in it for Bitcoin But you know now they're becoming publicly owned companies that are mining like the biggest companies is you're right So they had to have to they have to do what's best for the investor that the maximize profits and if it means Moving over to mining in this pool. I don't see why they wouldn't be susceptible to that, right? I don't know That's the way I see it unless I'm missing. Yeah Vinny I agree. I agree. I agree. I think actually all proof-of-work networks are prone to selfish mining, because if you think true, selfish mining is the optimization of a mining strategy for the miner, from a selfish perspective, selfish mining is the optimization of what you can do as a miner. And if I think on the proof-of-work model, proof-of-work is designed for the miners to be selfish and to think on how they can profit the most. And that's why proof-of-work, and that's the premise behind proof-of-work security. You consider that every single miner wants to maximize their profit, and therefore the network is safe. Because if they don't want to maximize their profit, then we have a problem. Because the network might be secure, because they could do some word stuff that would hurt their profit while hurting the network. So for the proof-of-work network to be secure, miners must want to maximize their profit. And the best way to maximize their profit is to selfish mining while at the same time controlling a large share of the hash rate. So if you think true, selfish mining is intrinsic to the proof-of-work model in some sense. The problem is when the selfish mining is perpetrated by a malicious entity that is trying to cause disruptions, that is trying to cause reorgs and to threaten mine empty blocks or threaten to do 51% attacks or double spends and so on. Which is why I'm more of a proof-of-stake guy than a proof-of-work guy, because I see all these increasing problems to the proof-of-work that I don't see that clear in the proof-of-stake. Of course, proof-of-stake is not perfect, it has its issues, but I see more issues in the proof-of-work side and I think that the selfish mining events are somehow a proof of that. Monero is, unfortunately, being the one proving that until we can find a solution, but I think all proof-of-work networks inherently can suffer from the same thing. I agree with you on that. I just wanted to acknowledge that. Doug I don't think, I'm definitely not ready to say random X is, rest in peace, random X by any means, or rest in peace, proof of work. I think random, you know, we make these tweaks and we'll start to see random X working as intended, proof of work working as intended. I do think we'll thwart this attack with the tweaks we make and then the decision, then become the decision to move to this finality layer just because it really, really bolsters us and without losing the element of blocks being created by CPUs using their power to mine with the random X algorithm. I don't think anybody wants to see that go away anytime soon, because it really does route Monero into the physical world, right? With this one CPU, one vote. I'm not ready to say one CPU, one vote isn't worth trying to achieve. I think Howard Chew is obviously a freaking genius. I would love to get him, you know, he's been on hiatus, hiding out. I think he's been commenting on some of the things that have been coming out, but he's not as vocal on X because he basically got, I don't know, he lost his account or something or whatever. Obviously, I'm sure, maybe he toothed into these once in a while, I was just saying, this is like, oh, Doug, Doug's an idiot. I love Doug, but he's an idiot. Like, I would love for Howard to come back and tell us his current take on everything. Oh my God. I think he kind of be like, it's working as intended. I think that would be his exact response. I mean, he always said, you know, wasn't supposed to be super profitable, right? With the way it's built, it's, you know, it's just not how it works. And I think the question becomes, is there ways that are things that get invented where it starts to make more sense for CPUs to mine Monero in the background, right? We need, like, yes, merge mining. We're seeing that being one of these things that's picking up, right? Even the cubic thing, right? We're looking at it as this evil thing, but the fact is it's increased the hash power, right? We've gone up in hash power because of the attack and because of us responding to the attack. So we're seeing like, you know, so Howard might be like, well, it's, I don't know, I see hash power going up. More people, more people mining it. So yeah, I'm definitely not ready to say rest in peace for proof of work and random X. Well, you won't vote, man. Vinny Yeah, definitely sure for that. And I think that proof of work and Monero are two things that go very well together. For what I said, it's really hard to make sure that a proof of stake network is honest via Monero, because of how Monero hides everything from everybody. It's great for financial transactions, but it's not that great for a proof of stake system. But I just wanted to acknowledge some problems that I see on proof of work, because I see many people looking the other way around. And as you said, that's exactly it. We are only calling it an attack because we don't like surging. But basically that, because if you like it surging, if you're like a person that we like, he wasn't threatening, doing bad things, and declaring. This is great. Look, we've got a monopoly. The problem is that he is declaring malicious intent. And that's what makes it an attack. Otherwise, I think Untraceable said that Untraceable is not referring to that as the Don't Trace Me Bro account on X. He's not referring to that as an attack, he's referring to that as a strategy. And I think that that's a mining strategy. So mining is a mining strategy, whether you like it or not. And it's possible by the protocol. Doug And also what I love about Random X, the one CPU, one vote, is the permissionless aspect. And I do think that is part of Monero, why I don't think proof, and I guess this makes me start to sound like a proof of work maxi, because I do think we always need a way for people to permissionlessly obtain Monero. And the only conceivable way I see that being happened is access to CPU and electricity, where a four-year-old in Iran can freaking plug their phone in and get a little Monero, might a Pico Monero over some course of time and use it for something, making it as the system truly permissionless, not where you have to purchase the Monero to obtain it, you have to get KYC to obtain it. There needs to always be a way, and that's what's beautiful about the tail emission, right, too, is that Monero is always being emitted, and that anybody anywhere can get some of it with the CPU and nothing else, and just some power and internet, right? That's a beautiful aspect of Random X, in my opinion. Vinny Yeah, I absolutely agree to that Doug Let me bring up some of BC's comments because he's always dropping amazing even though he's not sending them a super XMR chats. Come on, man. Come on. No, but he's an OG, a sage in the community. The biggest issue with proof of stake is the initial bootstrap that's normally solved the pre-min pre-sale Monero already solved initial thing. Yeah, Monero has been out there for a long time. It did have a steep admission curve, right, which is a lot of people don't realize, but you know, it wasn't like the most fairest admission curve. A lot of Monero got dumped, put out on the market early on, but it's been around for so long. The price has been dumped and stayed low for a very long time as a constant rate. So there's plenty of time for anybody to come in and obtain. Nobody missed the boat on Monero. You had plenty of time to come get some. I imagine Big Whale sold at different points. So I would say it's got to be pretty decently distributed. I mean, the concern is, like we said, these dark markets that maybe got taken over by the state and maybe the state sitting on a big pile of Monero. I don't know what piece to say with that. Vinny what you said, it's fun because SKJ was discussing that in the Monero Research Lab meeting that was discussing the publisher Parrish proposal. And he mentioned exactly that. The initial distribution of Monero is a bit shady. And yeah, it's not like it's true. There is this concern for a proof-of-stake model. But I agree. Doug Yeah, JW Interim did a whole presentation on an adminerotopia because he's just comparing you know, Monero to Wow Narrow to these other and the emission emission schedules to XANO. He was obviously highly critical of something like XANO. But yeah, even Monero, he didn't he didn't score too high in terms of its how fairly distributed it was in the beginning, at least. Nobody knows now who knows. But you would think with time and usage and the fact that Monero is actually used, it's going to tend towards being more distributed proof of stake actually helps the network because stakers need to run nodes and they contribute to the redundancy and resilience of that. Yeah, I would definitely put that in the plus column. And once again, it turns people into holders in some form. Short block times without something like centralized checkpoints do not actually create finality settlement probability still remains the same. So yeah, oh, we got some super chats coming in here to individual a tip. 13 cents. My 500 is that is that a pecan arrow on proof of work and proof of stake key for proof of work on CPUs staking creates elites proof of work on hardware available to everyone is democracy. I don't know if I'm a big fan of democracy overall, but I get what you're saying. Get rid of the fee market. This is a relic from BTC hard cap fear of no incentives after the 21 millionth coin. Yeah, get rid of the fee market. This is a relic from BTC hard cap fear of no incentives. Yeah. So, you know, he likes he likes a telemission. He likes proof of work and he thinks, you know, Monero should be accessible with CPUs. Anybody can mind it anytime from here on out into the future and get a little bit of Monero. Vinny I'd like to address that because that's a common argument against proof of stake. And this can be easily reverted to proof of work, even Monero, even with random acts, even with CPUs. Like, elites can buy more CPU than everybody. So if they want to buy CPUs from all the CPUs from the world, like they can accumulate CPUs and start mining Monero. And they can rent hash hate, they have more capital to rent or hash hate. I mean, that's really not an argument. And I want to address that because that's a common argument that proof of stake creates elites and proof of stake like get all this cabal controlling the network and proof of work not. That's false. The same way elites can control proof of stake, they can control proof of work. And actually, it's easier to control proof of work in the sense that it's harder for the network to monitor. If somebody is accumulating stake in a proof of stake network, you can see that happening, you can see the price going up, and the holders are real benefit from that because the more the guy is buying, the more the price is going up, and you can sell with unrealized some profit if you want. So everybody can monitor everybody can know these things going and not not in Monero, of course. But in other proof of stake networks, you can see the money going to some addresses, and you can know somebody is accumulating. And you can see this going to always taking providers and validators and etc. proof of work is harder. You actually if the pool doesn't want to be discovered, you can't know. We only know cubic is doing what they are doing and who is behind it because they are publicly disclosing their intentions. If they wanted to never flag the pool with a name and go as no, just accumulating CPUs, just accumulating hash power, and just self-shmining, we would never know it was a single entity. Never ever. So this is a logical fallacy. I believe proof is Doug Well, but there's no way for them to do that privately because of the scheme that they're running where they're selling this shit coin along with that, right? So that's what makes that model work is the fact that they got the shit coin that goes along with it. Vinny If they were a small cabal that had a lot of money and want to put this money in CPUs and mine Monero Oh, yeah Doug They just wanted to go and start mining, yeah, renting Hashpower and... Yeah, yeah, imagine it going for a minute, imagine it going for a minute. Vinny or apple or google in infecting all devices with a malware via apple store or play store if they wanted or a government if you access the government website to pay your taxes they infect your CPU with a malware that is now money monero for them. Doug That'd be amazing. I got to say, if the government starts using malware on every piece of computer, you need some live in there. I feel like that would end up working in our favor. Some, I don't know, I don't know. I hear what you're saying though. And what's funny too with this cure, interesting about this cubic thing, right? Is that we haven't been 51% attacked, which is nice. We've just been deeply re-orged. But one of the reasons they're not is because they're a public entity, right? And effectively, now they're doing something that could arguably be said to be illegal, right? An attack on like, there's some legislature out there, right? In federal law that basically said like, you can't attack a computer network, right? And cause damage to it. So, cubic as a public entity would be admitting that they're attacking this network. But it's quite ironic, right? That's not a good, right? Excuse says to why we should be okay with it. Like, so now we're okay with the state protecting us, right? Like, is there some law against it? Like, no. That just happens to be the way it is. Maybe that's why they're not doing it. But I'm not looking to rely on laws from the state as to why we don't get 51% attack. That's not a good long-term plan. Individual A, did I bring up his tips here? Individual A tip, 13 cents. One transaction, one price, raise fees a little bit to incentivize spam transactions, but actually there is no spam if you pay for it. Wait, did I miss some of his other ones? Vinny Yeah, he's continuing his previous argument. So this is the second part of the forest ground. He's saying, like, get rid of the fee market. Yes, he's saying, get rid of the fee market. And fees are for expand. And there is another one right now, I guess. Doug Yeah, he's saying the raise fees, I'm against the raising fees, I guess maybe a little bit. And then he's saying ending with a high transaction backlog not only increases block size, but also decreases block interval, make difficult to mine a block relative to the number of transactions in the block thereby keep tail emission rate individually. It sounds like we need to just have you on the show and you could explain your thoughts. Maybe you want to jump on Monero topi tomorrow. Another big tip from no name tipped another $26 and 24 cents. Amazing that must be. Vinny like 0.1 XMR. Yeah, yes. Doug he sent one and now he sent 0.1. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I guess we've been going for about an hour here. Why don't we zoom out for a bit and give us your overall take then of what you think in terms of untraceable digital cash cryptos. Obviously, you're into Nano, you're into Zcash, you're into Monero. What's your current overall take on where you see things going, how you see these different tools existing in the future. Give us your overall crypto take. Vinny I am into everything that somehow improves my life and gives me more sovereignty. That's why I opted for this life that I have right now, like 100% of my payments are in crypto, all my money is in crypto. I'm trying to expand directly in crypto whenever I can. It's not always possible, but I try that. I mean, I... Doug Are you using XMR Bazaar? Not yet, because I don't need to get on there. Vinny I think I am. I was one of the first ones to, as soon as you launched it in the beta version, I think I made an account there. But I entered the website like three or four times and there were nobody nearby. Doug But you could do virtual things. You can be like, hey, Vinny hiring me to write articles, this and that. You could post your services, things like that. Vinny fair enough. Yeah, I can do that. Doug That's one of the bit what I see as being the bigger use cases is basically being able to hire people globally anonymously if you like for Monero for our Vinny totally miss it because I was speaking more like local markets. But yeah, you are totally right. And then you should be there more often. So yeah, that gives me more sovereign and more freedom, I mean, too. I can even defend stablecoins, I was saying, because I live in Brazil. And here we have hell, the BRL, and it's weaker than dollar. For me, it's better to price my working dollar and to receive something that can mirror the dollar price than having it in my local queue. And so if stablecoins can give me that, I can I will use them, I will even advocate for them. But of course, I prefer the other stuff. I prefer Moneta prefers the cash, I prefer Nano, I prefer I really enjoy. Doug What do you think of freedom dollar, the Zano stablecoin? Vinny Yeah, as I said, I didn't dive that deep into XANO. I really need to study the network more. I'm also always super skeptical for new projects. I rather wait for them to mature a little bit and to be more battle tested. But I think this is It's not like that. Doug especially an algorithmic stablecoin that you use. Yeah, yeah. Vinny Exactly, exactly. I think Bing Privacy also has an interesting, I think it's Nefrit, something like that, Nefrit Money, that is an eight centralised stablecoin that runs on a privacy network. Bing Privacy has privacy by default, similar to Monero. There are others that, like Zephyr, the Zephyr protocol, they had a lot of issues. Back then, I don't think I can trust the protocol right now, but they tried something as well with private stablecoins. There are a lot of projects experimenting. I'm watching most of them from a distance, and if they prove themselves as resilient, I probably will jump in. So yeah, trying to use Monero a lot, trying to use Zcash now that I'm learning more about Zcash. I really like it. I started to have some nice conversations with the community. They have a very active community in Brazil. I didn't know that, so I'm trying to connect to these guys. Nanu is an old passion. It was like one of the first things that, together with Monero, was one of the first things that I started using and studying, and I still continue to use it. So, I'm wondering. Doug What triggered your recent interest in Zcash? Was it the toxicity you were seeing in Monero? Oh my God, these guys are so fucking annoying. Vinny I'm willing to near now for the five. So borrowing, lending, and these things, near protocol, the blockchain. I think it's like 30th in market cap ranks, something like that. I started to enjoy learning about near and near integrated Zcash in a cross-chain protocol they have. It's called near intents. So it allows people to buy Zcash or sell Zcash or use Zcash connected with all the other networks, which include Solana, SUI, XRP, and all these big ones. Doug Oh, is it like a liquid? Is it like a Thor chain type thing? Like a liquidy? Yeah, yeah. Vinny similar like torch and myoswap and all this it's a bit more efficient they have like lower fees and Doug Any chance they add Monero? Or is there discussion in Nier for anything in Nero? Vinny The new founder was talking about adding Monero, how they went into that, I know that they required Doug Get near it Monero topi as well man get it get him get him down there Vinny Yeah, I can try to connect to you with them. I start to know some people there. But yeah, this was what turned me into Zcash. So I saw in your integrating Zcash, and I saw that I could, for example, use Zcash in a merchant that takes XRP or that takes Solana stablecoins. I could send Zcash and the guy would receive in the token they want, which is like Solana, for example. So, I mean, that's super interesting for me because the biggest issue of trying to spend crypto directly is finding someone that likes the same coin as you do. I like Monero, I like Nano, but there aren't many people around me taking those. So maybe the guy that likes Dogecoin wants to take crypto for payment, and I have something that he don't want, and he takes something that I don't want to hold. So I can use like cross chain and tar swap and these things to use my Zcash or to use other coins that I have that are integrated to the system, to this protocol, and spending the coin that the person wants to receive. So knowing this made me interested in Zcash. I started to dig and I started to discover some things that I used to believe were true, actually weren't, and Zcash is pretty cool. So totally worth to study a bit and research together with Monero, and both of them can coexist. There is like a privacy war, people like Monero don't like people from Zcash, people from Zcash don't like people from Monero, and this is silly. You know, like for the user, it doesn't matter. You can have both, you can use both, and both will protect you and give you privacy. So both are great. Speaker 2 Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous.org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Doug All right, I think that sums up Moneratopia pretty well. Vinny That's beautiful. Beautiful ads. I love it. I really enjoyed it. Doug Yeah, dude, you'll really, you'll really enjoy it. I'm telling you, it's a good time. And the marketplace is very vibrant. You buy lots of different things, and we've onboarded them to Monero. And so we get a lot of the same vendors to come back. You know, whatever they're willing to accept, right? Obviously, Monero is the most expensive, but who knows? Like at Porkfest, people accept various different cryptos. So I, you know, I want Monero topi to be a free market, right? And for Monero to be the winner of that free market. That's where I'm hoping it continues to go towards. So, so far, so good. Vinny, man, I don't know. Actually, I'm pretty much out of questions. Anything you want to shill or bring up before we close it out? Vinny Yeah, before before I forget, I know when other people don't like him very much. But Joelle, Joelle actually made an article I forgot I was about to talk about that. He made an article with a proposal to to use like, when it'll proof of work with I guess it's dash, chain locks, nanos, or v and xano that I don't know how the the consensus on xano like a hybrid model with all these three and and try something from a nano I think as we as we said, like, it's worth reading and it's worth considering. So yeah, I also I looked at Doug at it. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what if it's being, you know, I think aspects of it obviously are being considered. I don't know if that, that, that mixture of those three is what solves it. I think Joel thinks, thinks, which is, which is freaking awesome. Yeah. I read it. I'm not technical enough to say like, if that's, you know, an idiotic thing overall, that he's missing some component. But like I said, I'm open to everything right now. I love, I love that you have, here you have Joel, right? I mean, he's, he's a, he's a big Z cash guy. He's a big dash guy. He's a Manero guy too. You know, contrary to what people may think he, he throws some hate our way. I don't know. He has something against fluffy pony. Like once in a while, really go out fluffy, like, Oh, he didn't form it, but he like seems to be quite serious about it. But here he is contributing to Manero, right? Offering an idea. He sat there and spent a lot of time thinking about this. And you know, it's a very well thought out contribution. Who knows? Maybe there, there's some gold there, right? So yeah, love to see it. And yeah, he's another character that I'd love to get down to Manero topia. We had Vlad last year, I hope he comes back. Yeah, I try to bring in, you know, I wouldn't want the comp, like, I love that Vlad hosted last year was great, right? Rather than some like Manero maxi, who's just up there, putting a wall up for all the other projects that are talking, we had somebody who's like genuinely open and interested in discussing all of them, because he's Vlad really is not a maxi. He's a digital cash maxi. Joel, I think would label himself the same Vinny, I think you would label yourself the same, right? You're a digital cash maxi. Yeah. Vinny Yeah, I try not to BMX off any coin. Sometimes we get a little bit more excited about one thing or another. But yeah, I definitely don't want to be to be locked because I think BMX, it kind of blinds you for the problems and for other things going on. There is a lot of very interesting things going on, even if they are not like focused on privacy, they can help you by, I don't know, with something else. And I don't think we should we should, frankly, it's just. Doug boring at that point right like if we're just all among each other talking about the same thing and like like no get we need to evolve and the only way you don't check different points like it appears all about it we need to be a free market of ideas as well at Monero topia for sure Vinny Thank you. Thank you. Doug So, individual A, I see you sent another one, continue your thought. Honestly, I kind of lost it a little bit, more of a me problem than I think, but it's a little hard to follow. I don't know if you were able to follow it, Vinny, everything he was saying, but my recommendation to you would be to jump in the Monero Research Lab and start to propose your idea there, maybe write it up in one blob of text, put it out there, maybe people are interested, then you go and write it up in the GitHub under the post folder. Vinny until next and tag me there. There is my handle here. I love to join these discussions. So yeah, definitely I'll probably join. Doug Vinny, man, thank you so much. This is great. I love that you're able to come on today. I'm glad we finally made it happen. I know we've been talking DMing for a while now, on and off. And yeah, let's stay in touch. Hopefully I see you in person down at Moneratopia. Vinny Yeah, hopefully I really try to do it and thank very much for the invite. I love the show. I love what you do. Big respect, my second respect, really. Doug Yeah, brother you're I appreciate that that means a lot and yeah, I gotta go I gotta go snuggle with the baby right now She's waiting for me. This is daddy time. I can hear all right Speaker 2 Adios. Hi, Monero Land. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Go to MoneroTalk.Live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. If you want to interact with us, guests, or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on Twitter, Mastodon, or any of our social media platforms. MoneroTalk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you, and supporting us is easier than ever by typing in MoneroTalk.Crypto in your Monero.com or cake wallet send address field to send us a tip. Once again, thanks so much for listening, and we look forward to being back next week.