Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #32: Interview with Patrick Long, Co-Founder and CEO, Innosearch.ai

Transcript

Remarkable World Commentary Episode #32: Interview with Patrick Long, Co-Founder and CEO, Innosearch.ai · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:12
Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, and MBA,
0:18
invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
0:22
Remarkable World Commentary here.
0:25
Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights,
0:28
perspectives, and more with her listeners.
0:31
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
0:35
especially kids with disabilities.
0:38
Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
0:42
dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
0:46
law graduate, and podcast commentator.
0:50
She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
0:53
skills, and expertise in access technology and information.
0:58
As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
1:02
she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:07
Donna J. Jodhan: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
1:15
I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
1:23
through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
1:28
I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant.
1:32
Author. Lifelong. Charter or sorry barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
1:41
You may know me from a few headline moments.
1:45
In November 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to
1:53
make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
1:57
not just cited once. In July of 20 of 2019, I led the
2:07
Access Canada up with more than two dozen disability groups to turn equal access into
2:16
federal law and most recently on June 22nd, 2022,
2:25
I was humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to
2:33
removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery
2:42
studio, you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
2:47
producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
2:53
gadgets talk In plain language, everything I do circles one goal to turn
3:02
accessibility from afterthought into everyday price.
3:08
I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived
3:16
experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
3:22
Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
3:26
let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest and changemaker,
3:32
whose work is every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
3:39
I am pleased today to introduce Patrick Long,
3:45
co-founder of Innosearch, a company that is really shaking up our
3:51
landscape through partnerships and through innovation.
3:56
Patrick, welcome to my podcast.
4:00
Patrick Long: Yeah, thanks for having us, Donna.
4:02
I really appreciate the opportunity to share.
4:05
Donna J. Jodhan: We are delighted to have you.
4:08
And we would like to know more about what's going on with you.
4:13
So in our searches, the first question I have for you is that Eno searches integration into
4:21
Be My Eyes. It has really started to shake up the landscape.
4:28
And it's really it's a great talking point.
4:31
Tell us about some of the surprises and challenges that you met when you decided to
4:36
enter into this partnership with Be My Eyes.
4:40
How did you integrate your platform?
4:45
Patrick Long: Yeah, absolutely. So we are now we're doing a strategic alliance with my eyes.
4:53
Basically, there is a very strong intersection of mission and vision of our two
5:00
companies. Be My Eyes seeks to be basically an everything app for the blind and low
5:08
vision and inner search is helping be my eyes users more easily shop online.
5:15
So within the Be My Eyes app today, you can go to,
5:21
you know, search and for all customers we're doing a special promotion referred by the My
5:27
Eyes and through the Be My Eyes app, you can access 2% cashback on all your
5:33
purchases. So we plan to make it a lot easier and very convenient for you to access all of
5:42
our search services through the Be My Eyes app.
5:45
So it's something Mike Buckley and I have talked about,
5:48
and we're very excited to be joining forces.
5:51
Is being my eyes. Obviously has a very rich history,
5:54
and all the volunteers are so great for helping blind and low vision get that
6:00
independence and power that they need.
6:04
And now the search integration.
6:06
We see that as even extending this right past simply visual interpretation.
6:12
But now, to help blind and low vision users shop online independently.
6:19
Donna J. Jodhan: What made you choose or what?
6:22
What criteria did you use to choose?
6:25
Be my eyes as a partner.
6:27
I'm very curious to know.
6:30
Patrick Long: Yeah, so Be My Eyes has a long history and very strong reputation within the blind and
6:37
low vision community. I think globally there's close to 800,000 blind and low vision
6:44
using my eyes, and they're a global platform and also in the search.
6:50
Right now we're currently in four countries the US,
6:53
UK, Australia and Canada, but we have plans to expand to more countries
6:58
as well. So this partnership with Beis is very exciting for us because it gives us the
7:05
platform, right, and the users to really share what we're building to,
7:09
to even more people globally.
7:11
That's just one of the reasons, I think also just the overall ethos of
7:16
everybody at the team is something we, we share.
7:20
Mike Buckley is located in the Bay area.
7:22
We had a meeting many times.
7:25
Brian Bastian, the vice chair.
7:27
We also met and we just, you know, the moment we met and started
7:31
talking about the various issues that we're trying to solve together,
7:35
it just clicked, right.
7:36
And we got along very well and decided that we could work together.
7:43
Donna J. Jodhan: That's really great. I think, you know, like when that announcement was
7:47
made. It really caught me by surprise.
7:51
I guess I wasn't paying much attention to, you know,
7:54
what you have been doing, but I think it's great for for our community.
7:59
I think it's going to open up a whole lot of new opportunities.
8:03
You know, things like cashback shopping, you know,
8:06
booking, traveling and all that.
8:08
What feedback have you had thus far from our community?
8:14
Patrick Long: Yeah, I think what I've learned working closely with a lot of blind and low vision
8:21
people is that accessibility really is a spectrum,
8:26
right? There are some people you know, that are,
8:31
you know, use like, you know, screen readers and they're experts at screen
8:35
readers, right? And they can navigate pretty much a lot of websites pretty seamlessly.
8:41
Right, because they know all the right shortcuts and they have the proper training.
8:44
Me. But, you know, 95% of people actually don't know a lot of the commands,
8:52
right? And special features of these screen readers.
8:55
And it's then this I realized that accessibility is a spectrum,
9:01
right? Some people are real experts.
9:03
They can use things seamlessly, but majority of others still struggle,
9:07
right? And therefore you need to have really have a solution that serves.
9:13
All right. And that's what you know, search is right.
9:16
Because we make the web browsing experience so simple and so easy.
9:22
Even somebody with the very basic understanding of screen readers can still get
9:27
access, full access to all the e-commerce features that they need,
9:33
right? Like searching for products, learning about products,
9:36
making returns. We just make it so simple and easy regardless of your Our expertise with
9:44
screen.
9:46
Donna J. Jodhan: So I guess you're telling us that you cater to those who are technically savvy,
9:54
as well as those who are at the bottom of the totem pole,
9:58
as well as the middle of the road user.
10:00
Is that what I'm hearing?
10:02
Patrick Long: Yes. That's right. We make it simple regardless of,
10:07
you know, if you're tech savvy or you're not right,
10:10
you have a computer or not.
10:11
In fact, recently we launched a phone line support.
10:16
So 1855. GPT you can dial right.
10:21
It's 24 over seven access to our entire catalog of products.
10:26
So whether or not you have internet access, right,
10:29
you just have a landline.
10:31
You can still get access to all those searches feature.
10:35
Donna J. Jodhan: I think that would suit me personally, as I consider myself to be a middle of the
10:40
road person here. I still like my my phone support,
10:44
but I think this is great.
10:47
And how do you see this?
10:49
Reshaping the landscape with this partnership.
10:55
Patrick Long: So I think ultimately it boils down to access,
10:59
distribution. Right. And reputation.
11:01
Right. A lot of people trust me.
11:03
My eyes, it's been around for so, so long, right?
11:07
And has done a lot of great things for the community.
11:10
And so, you know, we're a lot younger company,
11:13
right? We've only been around for just about a year and a half coming on two years now.
11:19
But they lend us that credibility and trust by an access to their wide user base.
11:25
So after making this strategic alliance, I think,
11:28
like you said, you know, we've really got the attention of a lot of
11:31
people and trust. Right?
11:33
So we've we've seen a lot of people give in to try buy and share and,
11:38
and just getting that opportunity to collaborate.
11:41
That's just so important for us.
11:44
Donna J. Jodhan: And you're right. I think, you know, like trust is very,
11:48
very important. And I think with, you know, teaming up with be my eyes.
11:54
And now I would like to know more about your partnership with the NFP,
11:57
which even further is further testament to to who you are and what you're doing and and
12:06
legitimacy. Tell me about the partnership you have with the NFP and what have you done thus
12:15
far in this partnership, and how do you think it's going to benefit
12:20
our community?
12:23
Patrick Long: Yeah, so we are also very excited to be partnering with NFP.
12:29
We spoke with Mark Bono president of the NFP just recently actually,
12:36
and we were just at the national convention in New Orleans.
12:41
So Oh, it was great. Yeah, it was you know, close to 3000 blind and low
12:47
vision people all in two hotels, jam packed.
12:51
We took over in New Orleans for the week.
12:54
So. Yeah, I mean, it's really great to see all the community members,
12:58
all the federation members just come together,
13:02
right, and share a week together getting great feedback for our product as well as
13:07
seeing lots of other cool, you know, technological advances,
13:11
improving the lives of the blind and the vision.
13:13
So, yeah, very exciting time.
13:16
It's just really energizing to see all the people firsthand that you've been impacting.
13:21
So yeah. But more directly, in terms of what we're partnering with NFB
13:28
with a lot of the round up to donate, it's a new feature that we're rolling out
13:35
basically, You know. And on each purchase on a search,
13:39
there is now an opportunity to round up your purchase to the nearest dollar.
13:45
And that donation will go directly to the National Federation of the blind to support,
13:51
you know, the great mission and advocacy for blind and low vision in the United States.
13:56
So that's something we are very excited by, not only because we can help sustain
14:02
advocacy. And obviously, you know, you know,
14:05
in these times it's a bit challenging, but helping,
14:08
even providing a little bit to sustain this advocacy.
14:12
But I think more importantly, also just letting people know about the NFB
14:16
and the great work they're doing.
14:18
So on every checkout page there's a link to the NFB site so that people can learn about
14:25
what the NFB is doing and hopefully, you know,
14:28
participate in their local chapter.
14:30
That's something we're very excited by.
14:33
Also for all NSB members.
14:37
We're offering a $10 credit to try in a search.
14:41
So on your NFP portal you can access you know,
14:47
this, this unique link that if you join, you can get a free $10 pre-loaded into your
14:53
account. So these are just some small things.
14:55
And of course, we're talking with the NFP leadership every week to see how we can
15:01
continually improve our product and also find more ways to work more closely together.
15:08
Donna J. Jodhan: Was this the first time that you attended any sort of convention,
15:13
like whether it was the NFP convention?
15:16
And I take it that you're probably promoting your,
15:19
you know, search to other organizations as well.
15:22
But was this the first time that you attended an NFP conference?
15:27
Patrick Long: No. We've been to CSUN.
15:29
We've also done a lot of Virtual webinars and conferences as well.
15:36
So we've we've I mean, we're still new obviously,
15:39
compared to a lot of other large companies like BMI,
15:42
eyes and IRA that's out there.
15:45
Right. Where's the sort of new kid on the block?
15:48
But yeah, we've been definitely attending in the in the two years that we've been active,
15:52
all the major, you know, conventions, conferences out there.
15:55
And it's it's all been really great.
15:57
It's great to meet members of the community and see how we can support.
16:03
Donna J. Jodhan: I think for me personally, Patrick, I'm just blown away that,
16:07
you know, within two years in research has made such a mark on our landscape.
16:12
And I expect that you will continue going forward as you do.
16:18
But I wanted to ask what made you choose the donate function to go,
16:26
you know, to, to work on and what were some of the challenges Just technically that you
16:32
got into.
16:35
Patrick Long: Yeah. I mean, we've brainstormed together with Mark Riccaboni a few times.
16:40
Right. And I think at the end of the day, we settled upon the round up donation feature
16:49
as something that they could stand behind and resonated with the NFB and also something
16:54
that, you know, because we really believe that simplicity is the best accessibility,
17:01
right? So we don't want to clutter our page too much.
17:05
And so at the end of the day, we had to come up with something to,
17:09
you know, that supports the NFB, but at the same time,
17:12
you know, isn't like advertising or anything that might detract from the overall mission,
17:17
right? That we just want to build the most simple web page as possible.
17:21
With all the feature. So blind and low vision users with screen readers can easily
17:25
navigate. So after a lot of brainstorming, put all our heads together and the round up
17:30
to donate seem to be, you know, the thing that everybody agreed
17:35
upon. So we decided on that.
17:39
But I think, you know, in the future, there will be there there has
17:42
potential to be so much more.
17:44
I think we are really innovating at the cutting edge of AI and other technologies.
17:50
There are some things in the pipeline like voice commands that we're working on as well.
17:54
So I think there can be really so much more.
17:59
Donna J. Jodhan: So you're offering not only online facilities but also phone support.
18:04
Is that correct?
18:06
Patrick Long: That's right. We have a AI chat integrated into the phone line.
18:13
We also have customer service, and we have both email and phone dialing,
18:20
and we operate 24 over seven as well.
18:23
So it doesn't matter which area of the world you're in.
18:28
We have people that can answer the phone and help answer the questions.
18:33
Donna J. Jodhan: And will you be Or are you going to be running like,
18:38
surveys in order to mention our other in order to measure how you're doing and what
18:45
next? What would come next?
18:46
Are there any. What kinds of mechanisms do you have to measure your progress and measure
18:53
what's next for you?
18:55
Patrick Long: Yeah. So I'm really glad you mentioned this point.
19:00
For us, getting customer feedback, doing customer surveys,
19:05
user testing is just so, so important.
19:09
I think I want to like, you know, a big part of the reason why,
19:13
you know, search, I think, caught on so quickly is because we listen to
19:17
the community. Right? And we put real strong emphasis in that.
19:21
So since the beginning, actually, we did surveys tons of user testing
19:26
with users. And also just I also want to mention three members of our team are blind
19:33
and low vision. And the person that actually leads up all the accessibility design,
19:39
front end design was born blind.
19:42
Actually used to work at this bro jaws as part of the team to build a screen reader.
19:48
So we we hired him and he's currently leading all the accessibility design.
19:54
So I think these factors really have made you know,
19:59
such a product that, you know, is truly built by the blind and low vision
20:04
and you know, is a product they, they love and use.
20:08
So that's something that we're really proud of.
20:11
And we will continue to innovate and continue to make it better as well.
20:16
Donna J. Jodhan: I think this is one thing that I continue to express my concerns over,
20:20
especially with different departments within the Canadian government and even some high
20:25
profile Canadian companies is that they are sorely lacking in input from persons who are
20:34
blind and vision impaired and therefore, you know,
20:37
like they hire third party developers and designers who really don't have the
20:46
expertise. And I, I think that is reflected in the work that you're doing.
20:51
And I want to congratulate you on that.
20:53
I think it's really great.
20:56
So what else can you tell me about different surprises and challenges that you have met
21:04
thus far? Technically?
21:09
Patrick Long: So I would say designing a one size fits all platform and system is challenging,
21:17
right? Right. Like, like I mentioned you know,
21:20
everybody has different Deficiencies in screen readers and magnifiers by different
21:27
assistive technologies require different ways the website must adapt to.
21:33
So yeah, building in that type of environment is challenging.
21:37
Also, everybody has different tech, right?
21:40
Whether you're using the latest and greatest MacBook.
21:44
Right. Or you have a older computer or a windows or phone.
21:49
Right. Just having all these different versions of software is also challenging to
21:54
adapt to. But again, you know, we, we try to do as much testing as possible.
22:01
We have members of our team that used to work developing the screen reader.
22:06
So we try to really build something as robust as possible.
22:11
Right. But again, that's something that we're always wrestling with because,
22:15
you know, it's hard to build a one size fits all for everything.
22:19
Right? And not have the bugs and accessibility challenges,
22:22
but that's something that we're always trying to stay on top of.
22:27
Donna J. Jodhan: So I guess it's always a challenge to be able to accommodate persons using windows,
22:32
as opposed to persons using a mac.
22:34
Opposed as opposed to persons using an iPhone?
22:38
Is that correct?
22:40
Patrick Long: Yeah. And also different versions of the software and different types of hardware
22:45
really that you're running. Right.
22:47
You know, you probably experienced if you're using it all the iPhone,
22:50
sometimes it lags a little bit and it's challenging.
22:53
So you know those are the things that we struggle with sometimes.
22:57
But I think coming up with a one size fits all solution that just really has that
23:03
accessibility focus. That's our ultimate goal and something that will always continue to
23:08
work on.
23:11
Donna J. Jodhan: I guess this is not you know, you're not going you're going to be seeking
23:15
other partners down the road.
23:18
And I don't, you know, I don't expect you to tell me who these
23:21
partners could be or whatever, but are you also partnering with companies
23:27
that produce access technology or companies who sell access technology?
23:34
And, you know, are you in the business of maybe providing any sort of training for
23:41
those of us who sometimes, you know, like have difficulty negotiating a
23:45
website or anything like that?
23:49
Patrick Long: Yeah. So this is actually something well, to be honest,
23:53
was not our original focus.
23:56
Our original focus really was just to build something that the blind and low vision
24:01
really loved. A platform that could confidently shop,
24:05
book flights on site, do all their commerce on.
24:08
And after getting that experience, you know,
24:12
to a place where it was, it was really loved and endorsed by all these
24:15
wonderful organizations.
24:17
Businesses started reaching out, right.
24:19
So we've recently had some businesses some pretty popular brands reach out to us seeing
24:25
if, you know, we could white label some of what we've built some assistive technology
24:31
companies that are building, like, smart glasses.
24:35
Reached out to us to see if, you know our voice.
24:38
I could be integrated into you know, they're,
24:42
you know, their hardware.
24:44
So, yeah, I think there are opportunities down the road to make this even,
24:49
you know, more widespread.
24:50
Right. And I think there's a lot of opportunity there.
24:53
From a business perspective, Ryan, that's that's really exciting for us
24:57
because at the end of the day, right, we want to be a sustainable business
25:02
as well, right? We want to really be here for the community in the long term.
25:07
And these types of partnerships will really ensure that happens.
25:12
Donna J. Jodhan: Patrick, what what made you decide to to dive into this this landscape.
25:17
I'm always curious to to ask this question.
25:20
And like what? What piqued your interest?
25:22
What made you decide to do this?
25:25
You and your co-founder?
25:28
Patrick Long: Yeah. So I've always had a very strong interest in obviously,
25:33
entrepreneurship. I've been an entrepreneur for over a decade now and just understanding
25:40
emerging technologies and seeing how they can be applied to make the world a better place
25:45
and make a positive impact in people's lives.
25:48
That has always intrigued me.
25:51
Prior to this, I was, you know, working in financial inclusion
25:56
helping the underbanked and unbanked worldwide get access to basic financial
26:00
services. So I've always had a very strong interest in this.
26:05
And recently, with the advent of large language models and the potential for AI you
26:13
know, to really democratize help.
26:16
Right. That got me a lot, you know, really interested in using this to
26:21
help those with a disability.
26:23
And I think my co-founder has a deep expertise in e-commerce in using AI for
26:31
search. Right. And together, we felt, you know,
26:34
there's just, you know, a big problem with accessibility.
26:38
Right. The AFP said 98% of websites are inaccessible today.
26:43
Right. And so and there's no real company making a big splash in this.
26:49
So we decided, hey, let's let's give it a try.
26:52
Let's build a prototype.
26:54
Right. And after some initial user testing, we,
26:57
the, you know, community, started raving about it.
27:00
And once we got, you know, that positive feedback time just sort of flew
27:05
by. And we've been building ever since.
27:08
So it's been a lot of fun and very, very, very rewarding for me personally.
27:15
Donna J. Jodhan: I think when someone says a lot of fun, that really makes me very happy.
27:20
And I really smile broadly because I think if someone enters into something because of,
27:26
you know, something else, but not having fun,
27:29
it soon gets to be more than just a challenge for them to keep going.
27:35
Would you agree with that?
27:37
Patrick Long: Oh yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's obviously the business needs
27:43
to sustain right in the long term.
27:46
But I think also having that personal connection.
27:49
Like for me, the thing that drives me is just hearing the stories and the testimonials from
27:56
the users that the lives we've touched.
27:59
Right. Like I always bring back this user.
28:02
His name is Francisco and he's somebody that had never independently shopped before.
28:08
In fact, he always relied on sighted cited help his family members in this past
28:12
Christmas. He was able to shop on his own using Innosearch,
28:18
right? And he was able to surprise his family for the first time for Christmas with some
28:23
gifts. And you know, it's stories like that that for me get me up at night and get me
28:30
thinking and excited to continue to to build something right and make the world even more
28:35
accessible. Because those people, you know, those stories are the ones that I
28:40
look for. So Yeah. Anyways, just wanted to share that with you.
28:45
Donna J. Jodhan: I think to me personally, that's extremely independent.
28:49
Extremely important. Sorry.
28:51
Because, you know, being able to independently do things without having to ask
28:58
our family or friends to help me out when I can do something independently.
29:03
It it it really fulfills my day.
29:07
And, and I, you know, I think it's very important to be able to to,
29:12
you know, share this story because, you know,
29:16
being able to surprise your family at Christmas time with,
29:19
with doing it all on your own.
29:21
It's it's it's terrific, you know.
29:24
Now, how do you think age is going to play a part in your progress forward?
29:35
What what sorts of things would do you think you can be using AI to help you move forward?
29:44
Patrick Long: Yeah. So I would say I mean AI is already very integrated and you know,
29:48
search. Right. We use that to summarize web pages fetch information you know,
29:56
create the search results, power the phone line.
29:59
There's a lot of places that AI is already integrated in a search you know,
30:06
we really help? We use AI to really help users save time.
30:11
I mean, it does a lot of the research for you when you're researching product details,
30:16
when you're trying to compare, you know, if this AirPods is good for running
30:23
outside or walk, taking a walk with it, you know,
30:26
is able to fetch all that information for you.
30:29
So AI is really a big part of search and can already do a lot for the user.
30:35
I mean, it can describe pictures for example as well.
30:38
Right. So any image that's not properly alt alt text,
30:44
then it can create that for you.
30:46
But I think the speed of AI, the growth of AI down the road so much more
30:52
can be done, right? So already we are experimenting with headless browsers,
30:59
right? Basically. You can use voice commands to control your browser.
31:05
Right. So if you're not so savvy with a screen reader or you're just,
31:10
you know, don't feel like using your keyboard and just want to tell the,
31:14
the, the browser what you're looking for.
31:17
We're really starting to experiment with things like that to automate a lot of the web
31:22
browsing and just make it easier for people.
31:25
So I think AI is really growing fast.
31:28
There's just so much potential in there.
31:32
And from that, a lot of possibilities to make the lives of blind and low vision better down
31:37
the road.
31:39
Donna J. Jodhan: When you first started out with, you know, within a search,
31:44
did you ever envision that you would grow so quickly and that you would have these immense
31:51
partnerships with images and NFT?
31:54
I mean, it's to me it's like Apple and Microsoft teaming up before.
31:59
I'm not trying to overplay this, but I just think,
32:02
you know, did you envision that this could be,
32:06
and if so, how so? And has your mission changed in any way since you started out?
32:15
Patrick Long: Well, I would say I don't really think of it that way for me.
32:21
I just try to make the best possible customer experience.
32:26
Right. So I, I just try to think of the pain points of the blind and low vision user.
32:32
And I just try to win one customer at a time.
32:34
Right. I try to listen to them understand their things that make the webpage
32:40
inaccessible and see how, you know search can help.
32:43
And we help one customer at a time.
32:46
But we don't think of things like, you know,
32:49
I like making big partnerships one after the other.
32:53
We think of really just improving one life at a time.
32:56
Right. How can I make this person with this need?
33:01
Better. Right. Just one person at a time.
33:03
How can I make your life more accessible, more independent,
33:06
more empowered? Just one person at a time.
33:11
And since the beginning, we've done that, and we've stuck with that
33:14
belief. And to this day, we still believe that.
33:17
Right. How do I listen to where I can help?
33:20
Where I can support and how we can make improvements to the site one person at a
33:25
time. And to be honest, it's actually through the word of mouth of
33:29
these users that led to these partnerships.
33:32
So we actually never reached out to a lot of these people.
33:36
They actually contacted us.
33:37
And it was because of the community.
33:41
Right? They reached out to their leadership, they reached out to that person and the
33:45
other, and they said, hey, this search company seems to be
33:48
interesting. It's been really helping out my daily life.
33:51
Can you try to contact them and see what you can do together?
33:55
Right. And that's something I'm really proud of because it's grassroots and it's organic.
34:01
And that really shows that we're actually making a difference.
34:04
So that's that's again, one of the things that really energizes me.
34:08
Donna J. Jodhan: And I think it's really important when someone says to me,
34:11
you know, like it's one person at a time.
34:14
One customer at a time, as opposed to who's the next partner I'm
34:18
going to go after. It tells me that you are well grounded or anybody who says this is
34:25
well grounded in in the in the goodness and the cause,
34:30
you know, as opposed to, you know, wanting to just go after partner
34:34
after partner after partner.
34:36
So I'm really pleased to hear this.
34:39
I think it's great.
34:41
Patrick Long: Yeah, absolutely.
34:43
Donna J. Jodhan: So tell me, I mean, do you or have you or is your testing team made up of a
34:53
variety of different types of persons with various levels of blindness.
34:59
And I think you're going to tell me.
35:00
Yes. You know, like from a person with high functioning vision to a person with low
35:08
functioning, functioning vision, to a person with no vision.
35:12
Is your testing team made up of these types of persons?
35:17
Patrick Long: Yeah. So we test across the entire spectrum, right?
35:21
If you have no vision, you have some vision.
35:24
Partial vision, maybe pinhole vision.
35:28
To people that are slowly, you know, with deteriorating eyesight also
35:33
across the spectrum of low proficiency with screen readers to,
35:38
you know, your experts, right?
35:39
We have everybody across that whole spectrum use,
35:45
you know, search and give us feedback.
35:48
So, yeah, I think that's, again, really important to building a great
35:51
product is really getting good testing.
35:54
Right. Good feedback. And And, you know, integrating that into the product.
36:01
Donna J. Jodhan: And are you planning to increase your testing team like globally?
36:05
Or, you know, what are your plans for the future for your testing team?
36:09
Or are you, you know, quite happy with the present team?
36:14
Patrick Long: Yeah. So I'm I would say we definitely need to do more work in expanding them.
36:20
I mean, we've been pretty busy recently with various things going at conferences and such,
36:26
but yeah, that's definitely something I want to do more of.
36:30
I think we're at the point where we really need more eyes looking at it.
36:37
Not I wouldn't say a dedicated testing team, but just getting doing a lot more user
36:41
studies, user testing with members of the community.
36:46
You know, our users so that we can continually make it better.
36:53
I mean, some idea we were thinking of was maybe even doing like a town hall type event
36:58
where, you know, anyone can join and then just just share what they think,
37:02
right where, what type of improvements they'd like to see.
37:08
Donna J. Jodhan: I think, you know, the town hall idea is a great idea.
37:11
I mean, it's one that my business continues to use and to encourage other departments or
37:20
entities to use, because through town halls you get direct feedback and people are not
37:25
inhibited to tell you what they think.
37:28
Right. So I think I love to hear that.
37:32
It's very good, you know.
37:37
What do you envision for the future?
37:41
What else do you think you you would like to go after?
37:45
What would you like to go after?
37:48
Moving forward. Other types of features?
37:52
What else? As far as expansion is concerned.
37:57
Patrick Long: Yeah. So one I would say the top priority obviously is to continually iterate and make
38:02
the site even more accessible.
38:04
I know some customers have said, you know, you guys work really well on Chrome
38:09
with jaws, right? But magnifiers, right.
38:14
Is another tool that people with partial vision use.
38:18
And can you optimize not just for screen readers,
38:21
but also magnifiers? Right.
38:24
I think that's an interesting point, right? I think that's interesting. There's a
38:27
group, definitely a group of people that use magnifiers frequently,
38:31
and websites aren't optimized for that.
38:33
Right. And I think there can, you know, there could be some thing we do for
38:38
that. So one I would say is continually make the product better.
38:43
And two, I mean, there's just so many websites out there that are inaccessible.
38:47
Like recently I heard from the president of the new Jersey,
38:52
National Federation chapter that the SSA is soon going to go,
38:58
you know, do away with a lot of their phone support,
39:02
right? So it's going to be challenging to navigate and use the SSA site.
39:09
So I feel like we can't rest until, you know,
39:14
we make a lot of these resources that people depend on a lot more accessible and easy to
39:20
use. I can't imagine the complaints and difficulty people will have when now getting
39:26
those kind of sites without support.
39:29
Right. So I think there's just so much more we can do.
39:33
Like, e-commerce is just, you know, a start.
39:36
But there's just so much more to make the world the world more accessible,
39:40
especially the internet.
39:43
Donna J. Jodhan: You know, and I think that a lot of companies lose sight of the fact that there are those
39:48
of us who prefer phone support as opposed to using the chat facility on a website.
39:55
Right. And then you have the additional challenges of getting the right combination.
40:02
For example, like Chrome and Jaws or Chrome and Nvda or,
40:08
you know, Firefox and Jaws.
40:10
Or Firefox. And then how do you deal with those trying to,
40:14
you know, like meet. Those combination challenges?
40:20
Patrick Long: Yeah. I mean, it's like you said, it's it's just so many different
40:24
permutations. Right. And going back to the previous point I made that's why we I agree,
40:31
we need to do more user testing and just do these town halls just have a lot more
40:36
conversations with users, because the more people we can connect with,
40:41
most likely we would have covered more of those permutations.
40:45
Right. Because everybody has their own way of accessing the internet.
40:50
Right. So if we do a lot more of these user studies,
40:53
we can ensure our product can work in every single permutation out there.
41:01
Donna J. Jodhan: What's next for inner search?
41:03
What what what are your next dreams?
41:05
Where are you going? How are you going to get there?
41:09
How realistic do you think it could be?
41:11
I always like to ask this question.
41:14
What are your dreams for the future?
41:16
How do you think you can help to keep changing the world of accessibility and
41:22
usability for persons with vision impairment?
41:25
And will you be trying to meet the needs of other persons with other types of of
41:34
disabilities?
41:36
Patrick Long: Yeah. So I would say one thing on the near term that excites us is the ability to
41:43
integrate voice into websites, making websites intelligent and making it so
41:51
that you can interact with websites using your voice not only you know,
41:57
searching for information, but also taking action,
42:00
like you know, searching for a product, going through the checkout and actually
42:05
making the purchase all using your voice.
42:08
Because I think voice is something like low vision use often they can simply say out what
42:17
they're looking for, and that could be a new mode of access,
42:21
right? That gives you more optionality to increase accessibility.
42:25
So that's one thing that we have in the horizon that we're working on.
42:30
In fact, we demoed a beta version of their product at the at the NFP.
42:35
We had a little session that we were able to demo to close to 100 people.
42:40
But once we iron out the bugs, then we plan to roll that out.
42:45
So that's something in the near term that we're really excited by.
42:50
More longer term. Right.
42:52
Obviously, I think there still needs to be a lot of work done in accessibility.
42:56
Unfortunately, accessibility is still an afterthought for a lot of companies,
43:01
right? Despite a lot of great progress, obviously,
43:05
that a lot of great companies have done.
43:07
I mean, I'm going to be honest, I still think accessibility is an
43:12
afterthought. And, you know blind low vision along with other people,
43:19
you know, other types of disabilities as well. They're all marginalized. They're not a
43:22
main concern of, like, your Walmarts and Amazons of the world.
43:27
So I think that has to change.
43:30
And my dream would be that the experience of those who are sighted and those who are blind
43:37
and low vision would be exactly the same when they're using the internet.
43:42
Right? That experience and that level of access should be exactly the same.
43:47
Now, I think we still have a lot of work to get there,
43:51
but my hope is, with technology advancing so quickly,
43:55
with a lot of smart people dedicating resources and thinking about this problem,
44:00
hopefully we can overcome that.
44:04
And yeah, that would be amazing.
44:05
I think that would be a big help for a lot of people.
44:09
Donna J. Jodhan: Do you ever dream of going after Amazon?
44:12
I mean, when I say after Amazon or trying to entice them to work with you,
44:18
do you think that could be possible one day in the future?
44:23
Patrick Long: Yeah. I mean, I think anything's possible, right?
44:25
Never say never. But yeah, they we are talking with some people in their
44:30
company. So yeah, maybe, maybe down the road.
44:35
But obviously, you know, with larger companies,
44:37
sometimes things happen slowly.
44:39
So. Yeah.
44:41
Donna J. Jodhan: Tell me about some of your moments that you had along the journey that you have
44:47
discovered. This is possible.
44:51
I need to work on this.
44:52
Do you have any moments that stand out in your mind?
44:57
Patrick Long: Up. And out. That's a tough one.
45:06
I feel like I have an moment almost all the time,
45:09
because I'm trying.
45:10
Donna J. Jodhan: To tell us about some of them.
45:13
Patrick Long: Yeah. So one recent one that I had is I realized that for,
45:23
for a lot of, you know, for these excessively,
45:25
you know, companies like ours, to succeed, there has to be a strong
45:29
relationship between us.
45:32
The end user, which is the blind, low vision consumer and also the business.
45:36
Right. Businesses ultimately also have to cooperate in helping us out for something big
45:45
to happen. Right. Because a lot of times it's hard to build a product and charge behind the
45:52
vision consumer, right?
45:53
Because that's, you know, it's it's challenging,
45:58
right? Like a lot of people, they want product that doesn't have a huge
46:03
price tag on it. They want it in the most effective way possible.
46:06
And the only way to do that is making sure there's a strong partnership with business.
46:11
And so in the beginning, right, we were 100% purely focused on the
46:16
consumer. But now I'm very happy that a lot of businesses are starting to show interest
46:21
and talk with us, because I think that can really open up the doors and just have so
46:28
much more possibility.
46:29
Right. Because a lot of times the vision may go to your Walmarts.
46:34
And they feel stuck. Right.
46:36
But having that partnership with, you know, Search, I might be able to help
46:41
with those accessibility challenges. So yeah,
46:44
that's something that I encountered recently.
46:49
Good question. That was a challenging one.
46:52
Donna J. Jodhan: I'm glad I got you there.
46:55
I know that affordability for most technology or access technology continues to be a
47:02
concern to many of us.
47:04
Do you how or what are your thoughts on that?
47:08
I mean, where is the balance?
47:11
Patrick Long: Yeah. That is a challenging one, right?
47:13
I mean, at the NFB convention, I saw a lot of great technology,
47:18
technological solutions, but some of them just have a really big price
47:22
tag, which is hard to overcome.
47:24
Ryan. And again, I go back to those business partnerships,
47:29
right. I think at the end of the day, as an entrepreneur,
47:32
you have to design something that is sustainable,
47:35
right? Because if it's not economically feasible,
47:38
then it's no benefit to anybody.
47:40
So, you know, you just sort of have to design the system in the way that there's a win win
47:46
for everybody. Right. All the parties involved.
47:49
And then the business can sustain by you as a,
47:53
you know, access technology business can sustain the business that you're maybe
47:58
selling items of or whatever is making money so they're happy.
48:02
And then the blind and low vision user is getting a competitive price.
48:05
So they're also okay with, with participating.
48:09
So at the end of the day, that's a creative solution.
48:13
Right. That you have to think of.
48:17
So yeah, I mean, that's the, the challenges,
48:20
right? But I think it's doable.
48:22
Right. And we've seen a lot of companies successfully do that like IRA.
48:26
I think now they're doing a lot of business partnerships and also be my eyes right is
48:31
doing the customer service work.
48:33
So Oh, definitely. I think there is a way.
48:37
And recently we've been getting outreach from a lot of businesses as well.
48:40
So I think I think there's definitely a path.
48:46
Donna J. Jodhan: You know, I think many companies still look at their bottom line and they still think
48:53
that, you know what? Because the market is so small,
48:57
it doesn't benefit us to, you know, like think of accessibility as
49:02
being a benefit as opposed to an afterthought.
49:05
What are your thoughts on that?
49:10
Patrick Long: Yeah, I mean that is again, a that's a hard one.
49:13
So I would answer that.
49:15
Or if I was talking to a business, how I would convince them is that it's well,
49:20
first of all, it's a, you know, it's a fundamental right.
49:22
Right. So access is a fundamental right in the United States.
49:25
They passed, you know, the Ada, and there's a lot of compliance,
49:31
right, in regards to making websites.
49:33
This week 2.1 a section five away in the in Europe.
49:38
So there's a lot of regulation that requires this accessibility.
49:43
So one from the legal perspective, right.
49:46
You need to have an accessible site.
49:48
Two right. It's it's good press.
49:51
Right. I think nobody wants to be called out as an accessible thing and,
49:56
you know so, so that's two.
49:59
And and three, there's still a lot millions of buy and low vision in the United States,
50:05
right? And the world is getting significantly older,
50:10
and people are living longer.
50:12
Right. And old age typically is correlated with some sort of vision loss or other type
50:18
of disability. 1 in 7 people in the US have some sort of disability.
50:23
Right. And that's a significant group of people with significant spending power.
50:30
Right. So I would say three, three main reasons,
50:33
right. One it's, you know, the law.
50:38
Two it's PR. Right. Good PR.
50:40
And three, you know, it's still if you add them up,
50:44
it's still a significant purchasing power that you don't want to overlook.
50:48
Right. So yeah, those those would be my arguments if you were a business.
50:55
Donna J. Jodhan: But do you think businesses recognize or are starting to recognize or are still choosing
51:04
to ignore it?
51:08
Patrick Long: I would say some are starting to recognize but I would say that's why,
51:17
you know, organizations like NFP organizations out there that are constantly
51:22
advocating and talking about these kinds of issues are important.
51:27
Right? Because I think education And making it top of mind for lawmakers and business
51:33
people is just so important because, you know,
51:37
again, right, if it's not mentioned in the press,
51:41
right, then it just becomes an afterthought.
51:43
So I think there's a lot of great work being done with a lot of the non-profits advocacy
51:48
work. We just have to continue.
51:50
Right. So yeah.
51:55
Donna J. Jodhan: Do you think in research would be interested in helping to educate other companies,
52:00
or is this beyond your your scope right now?
52:05
Patrick Long: Yeah, I think education I agree with you is is a big one.
52:08
We haven't looked into that.
52:12
But as I'm talking with you, I like that angle,
52:15
educating them about a lot of the benefits that can be had by making their site
52:20
accessible. Right. And putting a priority on that,
52:23
putting emphasis on that.
52:25
I think, yeah, that's great.
52:27
And we can mention those three points or even more points to,
52:32
to help convey that story.
52:33
Right. Why it's so important to have accessibility as a strong focus.
52:39
Donna J. Jodhan: And you're showing it through example.
52:41
But now, you know, like we got to go further and say,
52:44
okay, you know, search is the prime example of how to stop thinking of accessibility as
52:51
an afterthought and think of of other ways to reap the benefits and to help others.
52:58
Right.
52:59
Patrick Long: So yeah.
53:01
Donna J. Jodhan: I think, you know, like one of the final questions I have for you is what's next for
53:06
you know, what what what's next on the drawing board for you if you're able to share
53:12
anything like that?
53:15
Patrick Long: Yes. Yeah. So I would say feature wise we really want to roll out the voice commands
53:22
on, you know, search. So right now you can navigate your new search using your screen
53:28
reader, but very soon you'll be able to talk to our search site and access all of our
53:34
services just through your voice.
53:38
So that's on the inner search product side.
53:41
On the business side, we want to continue to partner with
53:46
businesses out there that want to have a stronger focus on accessibility and a lot of
53:52
the great features that you see on search.
53:54
We can also work on bringing that to your site.
53:57
So we're growing our B2B side of things.
54:02
And I think through that you know, we'll have a greater opportunity to expand
54:07
our audience, but we'll continually grow, right,
54:11
and obviously continue to listen to community feedback so we can improve and make our
54:18
product better for you.
54:20
Donna J. Jodhan: Any final thoughts? The veterans.
54:25
Patrick Long: Yeah. Yeah. I just want to say check us out.
54:29
We are, you know, search I I an o search.
54:34
So I you can dial you can also dial 1855.
54:42
gpt. Yeah. Let us know what you think about our service.
54:46
We would love to help and support you.
54:49
If you have any questions, you can also email me Patrick personally at
54:55
Patrick Pat, Rick at Info Search.
55:01
I and yeah, just really wanted to thank you for taking the time.
55:07
I know, you know, we pushed this recording on a few for a few weeks now,
55:11
but it's Yeah, just glad we finally got to connect and talk for a bit,
55:16
and I really appreciate you sharing this with your audience and just.
55:20
Yeah, spending the time to do this with me.
55:23
Donna J. Jodhan: I want to thank you for taking the time to have us interview you,
55:28
and I hope that some time in the near future,
55:31
you would come back and tell us exactly what you're doing.
55:35
How is it going? You know, anything that you can share with our
55:40
listeners to let them know, hey, in a search is here and a search is
55:44
here. Just me. So I want to thank you again.
55:48
And I look forward to talking with you again in the future.
55:53
Patrick Long: Yeah, absolutely. Donna, thanks so much.
55:55
I really appreciate it.
55:57
Donna J. Jodhan: Take care now. And thank you again.
56:00
Patrick Long: All right. Thanks a lot.
56:02
Donna J. Jodhan: Yeah. Bye. Bye now. Bye bye.
56:07
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna.
56:11
Hand at gmail.com. Until next time.