Latest / LifeAudio / I Wish You Could Hear This - 6 Steps to Better Your Marriage (Part 2) - Episode 53

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I Wish You Could Hear This - 6 Steps to Better Your Marriage (Part 2) - Episode 53 · LifeAudio

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life Audio. Welcome to I Wish You Could Hear This,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: where we explore great stories and simple proven steps to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: help you thrive in life, faith, and relationships.
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  Speaker 2: In our research, we've heard hundreds of hope-filled strategies for marriage, parenting, leadership,
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  Speaker 2: and life that are grounded in science and consistent with
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  Speaker 2: biblical truth. And now you can hear them too.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I'm Shanti Feldhahn.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm Jeff Vildan.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: We all want a great marriage, and it turns out
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: that little changes can make a big difference. There are
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: multiple steps that will help, not just in the content
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: of what we need to know about one another, but
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: in the process of how we relate to one another.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: We started this conversation with three of those steps last
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  Speaker 1: time in part one, and we're continuing with another three
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  Speaker 1: steps today on I Wish You Could Hear This.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: So this is part two of that conversation. So in
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: case you missed the first three, you can go back
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: and listen to part one. I think it'll be really helpful.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: But before we dive into the next set, let's explain
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: the foundation of what we're going to be talking about today.
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  Speaker 1: Good point.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we do need to. In our research of the
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: highly happy marriages, we identified 12 little habits that make
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: a big difference. And the most important one of those
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  Speaker 2: is the foundation for today. What is it?
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  Speaker 1: It is the choice to believe the best of your
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: spouse's intentions towards you, even when you are legitimately hurt.
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  Speaker 1: What we found in the research.
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  Speaker 2: Legitimately hurt.
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  Speaker 1: Like, it's a genuine something they did to hurt your feelings.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Or whatever.
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  Speaker 2: It's not like you're oversensitive.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Correct. Legitimately.
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  Speaker 2: You could be. But, you know, if 100 observers would
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: look at it and they could. Yeah. Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly. But what we found that was so crucial
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  Speaker 1: is that almost all. Now, sadly, it was not 100 percent,
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  Speaker 1: but it was almost 100 percent, like ninety nine point. Two, six, something,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: something percent. It was very close to 100% of spouses
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  Speaker 1: really deeply care about their spouse. We all, almost all,
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  Speaker 1: but we're going to say all for the sake of
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  Speaker 1: argument today, we all want the best for our spouse.
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  Speaker 1: We do. Even when things are hard, we care about
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  Speaker 1: each other. We were so struck by... in the research
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  Speaker 1: for the surprising secrets of highly happy marriages, the book
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  Speaker 1: that we wrote based on this big research study, we
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  Speaker 1: were so struck that even among the people who had
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  Speaker 1: the most difficult marriages, that number of, yeah, I absolutely
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  Speaker 1: care about my spouse. I want the best for them.
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  Speaker 1: Even when things are hard, that number was 97% among
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  Speaker 1: the people in the most difficult marriages. So we have to,
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  Speaker 1: As a foundation for steps four, five, and six to
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  Speaker 1: creating a great marriage that we're going to talk about today,
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  Speaker 1: it all is based on letting ourselves believe that our
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: spouse cares.
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  Speaker 2: Wow. Okay. Yes. Step four.
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  Speaker 1: Well, wait, hold on. We probably should say a caveat
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  Speaker 1: to this. Now, there are probably some, like we said,
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  Speaker 1: it's not quite 100%. There are some.
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  Speaker 1: It's relatively rare. It doesn't happen very often, but there
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  Speaker 1: are some people out there who are just purely selfish
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  Speaker 1: and they don't want the other person's best. And so
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  Speaker 1: you may be thinking, well, that's me. Well, okay. It
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  Speaker 1: could be most likely statistically it's not. And so what
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  Speaker 1: we would say is a caveat is if you think
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: that your spouse truly doesn't care about you, ask someone
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: who is a trusted leader, who is an encourager of marriages,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: like a trusted pastor or a Christian counselor, to help
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  Speaker 1: you determine whether that is the case. Because that would
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: mean that you are in probably an abusive marriage relationship.
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  Speaker 1: And if so, everything that we're going to be talking
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  Speaker 1: about in this podcast won't apply in the same way.
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  Speaker 1: And so this is not the resource for you. But
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  Speaker 1: just be aware, even in the most difficult times, relationships,
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  Speaker 1: the worst situations, remember 97% of people deeply cared about
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  Speaker 1: their spouse. So that is probably the case for you.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So, sorry, I had to do that.
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  Speaker 2: That's really helpful in today's world. So what is step four?
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So step four is, and this is simple, but
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  Speaker 1: it's really crucial when you are hurt. Like if you
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  Speaker 1: were to do something that hurt my feelings, not that, you.
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  Speaker 2: Know, never, never, never happens.
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  Speaker 1: Right. But the key, this key step is here is
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  Speaker 1: to say, yeah, you acknowledge that maybe you talk about it.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: But then you have to look for a more generous
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  Speaker 1: explanation of your spouse's behavior, because if your spouse does
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  Speaker 1: care about you, which is almost certainly the case, then
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  Speaker 1: there almost certainly is a more generous explanation. So If
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  Speaker 1: you said something in a certain way that really hurts
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  Speaker 1: my feelings, I could think, Jeff just doesn't care about me.
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  Speaker 1: And then what the happiest couples would do is they
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  Speaker 1: would go, no, of course he cares about me. Of
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  Speaker 1: course she cares about me. That's silly. Remember the thing
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  Speaker 1: that they did yesterday? Of course they care. And then
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  Speaker 1: you say, okay, what's a more generous explanation? Okay, he
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  Speaker 1: didn't know how that would make me feel. Or she
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  Speaker 1: didn't realize that that would come across as nothing I
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  Speaker 1: do is ever good enough for her.
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  Speaker 2: Or.
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  Speaker 1: look, it was a really bad day at work. I'm
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  Speaker 1: not making excuses, but this, he is not someone who.
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  Speaker 2: Doesn't care about me. And what we're not saying is
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  Speaker 2: that this is believing the best is you just deny
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  Speaker 2: legitimate hurts when they do occur. We're not saying that,
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  Speaker 2: not saying stuff it.
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  Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. If you are going to create a
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  Speaker 1: happy marriage, you have to be able to talk about things.
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  Speaker 1: You have to be able to, to address things that
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  Speaker 1: need to be addressed, but it's how you address them.
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  Speaker 1: And so that's why step four is so foundational and
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  Speaker 1: was the most important secret of the happiest couples. And
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  Speaker 1: by the way, the happiest couples that we studied, I
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  Speaker 1: think we said this last time, need to say this
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  Speaker 1: now in part two, the happiest couples, these weren't just
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  Speaker 1: people who were like tiptoeing through the tulips their whole marriages.
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  Speaker 1: Like these included people many couples who had gone from
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: really difficult marriages into being the happiest marriages. And this
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  Speaker 1: one thing wasn't about denying legitimate hurt, but it was
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  Speaker 1: about not saying that there is a difference between saying, Hey,
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  Speaker 1: that hurt me. And you wanted to hurt me. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Those are two.
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  Speaker 1: Very different things, and we don't realize how much we're
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  Speaker 1: assuming the latter.
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  Speaker 2: You know, this brings me back to a conversation we
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  Speaker 2: had with our co-author, Dr. Michael Seitzma, when we were
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  Speaker 2: doing the research for the surprising secrets of sex and marriage. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: For those of you who have not heard us describe Dr. Seitzma,
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  Speaker 2: he's been... 35 years in marriage counseling, sex, particularly with
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  Speaker 2: an expertise in sexual issues. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so anyways, lots of marriage issues, you know, just
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  Speaker 1: also general marriage. Right.
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  Speaker 2: And so as he, he talked about this, um, like
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  Speaker 2: in hurtful situations where one spouse has hurt the other.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Um, he puts it into a couple of buckets. Is
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  Speaker 2: it bad heredity? A bad heart or bad skills? So good.
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  Speaker 2: Because if it's a bad heart, you have to approach
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  Speaker 2: that much differently than if it's bad skills.
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  Speaker 1: Well, that's like what I said at the beginning, the caveat.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Does this person have a bad heart?
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Or is it just that they're just not good at
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  Speaker 1: that type of communication or they fumble their words or
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  Speaker 1: they're having a bad day?
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  Speaker 2: Or they don't recognize things that they should.
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  Speaker 1: Or, yes. I mean, we all do that. Yeah. All
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  Speaker 1: of us, 100% of us hurt each other's feelings, and
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't mean we don't care. It could just be that.
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  Speaker 2: We didn't do very well that day. And his, I
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  Speaker 2: think you'd ask them the question, well, what's kind of like,
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  Speaker 2: what's the percentage of people with bad hearts versus bad skills?
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  Speaker 1: And we were asking this knowing that he sees sometimes
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  Speaker 1: the worst of the worst.
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  Speaker 2: Correct. Right. And I'm not going to give you the
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  Speaker 2: actual numbers, but it was... remarkably small in his estimation.
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  Speaker 1: Of thousands of people that he has helped. Correct.
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  Speaker 2: Over the, over the decades, tiny number of those that
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  Speaker 2: he would say they just have a bad heart.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It is so easy today. I can hear people
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  Speaker 1: thinking as they're listening to this, well, my wife is
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: just a narcissist or my husband is just a narcissist.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, that is, has become shorthand.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 1: For a bad heart and just recognize statistically probably not. Right.
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  Speaker 1: Probably something else.
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  Speaker 2: Going on. And, you know, if there's something else going on,
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  Speaker 2: then perhaps some skills training can get you to the
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  Speaker 2: place or for that person and for yourself. Right. You
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  Speaker 2: can get to the place that you really want to
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  Speaker 2: be in your marriage. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: One of the most important things here, as you can
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  Speaker 1: kind of tell based on what we're saying, is just
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  Speaker 1: to recognize something can have a painful impact on you
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  Speaker 1: without having a painful intention.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Like we just have to be willing to acknowledge that
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  Speaker 1: and say, yes, that does look it does happen sometimes.
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  Speaker 1: what does this look like? Like from a practical standpoint,
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  Speaker 1: what does it look like to say, Oh, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it plays out that sometimes somebody might do or say,
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  Speaker 1: handle something in a hurtful way, but they didn't intend
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  Speaker 1: to hurt.
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  Speaker 2: Right. So let me think back to when we were
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: young marrieds and we lived in New York. And I'm
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: going to just pull out, you know, we had different
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  Speaker 2: approaches to, to finances.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, dear.
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  Speaker 2: I'm now worried about what example you're going to give. Well,
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  Speaker 2: we had, you know, to our listeners, we had lots
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  Speaker 2: of student loan debt.
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  Speaker 1: We started out, this was 32 years ago, we started
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  Speaker 1: out with $ 135, 000 in student loan debt. Like today would
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: be $ 250, 000.
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  Speaker 2: Easily. Yeah. Yes. So, but, you know, I was fixated
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: on getting rid of that debt. I hated debt. And
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  Speaker 2: you were.
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  Speaker 1: Making a great salary.
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  Speaker 2: I was.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: I was making a decent salary.
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  Speaker 2: But it really was my goal was to get rid
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  Speaker 2: of that as quickly as we could.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: And you had a different approach to money. Not that
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  Speaker 2: you wanted us to have debt. You weren't a spendthrift
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: by any means. But when we would go out and,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: you know, if we went out, you wanted to go
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: out to dinner and we went out. Oftentimes, the selection
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: choices or whatever it was.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: I would order a Diet Coke, which cost $ 4. 50 in
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: New York with no free refills. Or I would order
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: a dessert. Or let's have a cup of coffee. And
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: I could see the cash register behind your eyes.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-ching.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's now $ 14 worth.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Of ancillary things. Ancillary things. What I viewed as ancillary things.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And instead of going, you know, this is just kind
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: of the way Shanti is. Maybe we could talk about it.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: We didn't, which was a big problem. Instead, I just
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  Speaker 2: kind of marked it off in my mind mentally that
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Shanti just had a character flaw. And, you know, I
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: wouldn't go as far as saying a bad heart. But
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: as far as on this particular topic, I thought it
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: was just who you were. Yeah.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Well, you also, in our topic today, it wasn't in
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: keeping sort of with what we're talking about today, what
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: you were worried about, if I'm, I don't want to
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: put words in your mouth, but you were assuming it
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: wasn't just a character flaw, but that I didn't care about.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I didn't care about.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: How hard it was.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: You were working a hundred hour weeks to try to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: get rid of that student loan debt. Now, In my defense,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: you were working 100 hour weeks, whether or not we
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: had a penny of student loan debt, because this was
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: the law firm that you were working at. But in
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: your mind, the fact that I would order a Diet
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Coke and a dessert meant that I didn't care.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Correct. That is true. You put words in my mouth,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: but they were accurate words. So thank you. So how
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: did we get through that? And what can how can
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: others get through similar things?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: The example there is you are assuming the worst.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Of my intentions towards you. And as we, you know,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: kind of came to grips with it. And one of
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: the things that helped come to grips with it was
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: when you and I finally talked about ordering Diet Coke
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: at the restaurant. And I told you, you know, I
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: know this is going to sound funny, but like. I can't,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: I don't like the taste of water. Like we were
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: newly enough married that you just didn't know these things.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I don't like the taste of water. And like, I
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: can't really enjoy a nice meal out if I just
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: have water. So, you know, I would want a diet
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Coke or iced tea or something. And if I can't
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: have that, I'd rather not go out because I just
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: won't enjoy it. I know that's crazy.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: And you would have, and you did, I think say, look, I'm,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I'm content that on those occasions when you are, Are
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: not working at night. And we do have a chance
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: to have dinner together.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: We don't have to go out.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Pick up something at the corner. You know. Exactly. Something.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: And I'll have my Diet Coke at home.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I was fine with that. And you suddenly realized.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I did. Oh.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: It isn't that she doesn't care. About how hard I'm working.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: This is just a thing for her.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: She doesn't like water.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: And so. That's an example of you're not. There's two
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: steps there. One is that you have to look for
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: a more.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Generous explanation.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Generous explanation of your spouse's behavior. But in order to
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: do that, there's actually maybe a pre-step. So there's like
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: a 4.1 and 4.2. Okay. 4.1, sometimes you have to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: talk about it.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: You do have to understand.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: And that isn't pushing it down and pretending it doesn't exist.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Let's move on to step five.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. So what is step five?
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: So.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Step five is that we need to be also not
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: just looking for how to believe the best of our
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: spouse's intentions towards us. We also have to look for
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: things that we could be doing that hurt our spouse
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and work to change those things because it is so
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: easy to focus on what our spouse needs to do differently.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And we need to come to grips with the fact
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: that it's not just our spouse that That's the issue
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: we are too. And like, I may be doing things
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: to you.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: That cause you to have to believe the best of me.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: And the thing that is so wired into each of
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: us is this kind of idea that we have that,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: but that, that shouldn't hurt their feelings. That shouldn't upset them.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: It wouldn't upset me. And, and, and we have this,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know why it is, but we have this
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: tendency to go, you know, that's a little thing, but
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: what they did to me, it's really a big thing
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and it really hurts.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: You know, I think the reason for that, and I,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: this is one of the things we talk about when
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: we do like marriage events and that kind of stuff
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: is I think the issue is that so often what
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: those things are, are those hitting the raw nerve that's
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: of insecurity and, that's running under the surface. And it's
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: just your insecurity. That raw nerve is different from mine.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: So something different is going to hurt my feelings than
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: would hurt yours. And I am going to hit that
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: raw nerve sometimes without intending to. And we have to
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: be willing to say, oh my gosh, that is legitimate.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Like that's honestly, I think that's one of the reasons
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: the original research-based book for women only just exploded in
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: terms of sales and attention is it was so many
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: women going, Oh my gosh, like I had no idea
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: that I was hurting my husband's feelings. I mean, that,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: that's the reason I.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Wrote the book is I can still.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Remember one of the key moments that started the ball
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: rolling on that. I don't know if you remember this,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: but this is still burned into my brain. And this
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: is what, 25 years later or something. I can still
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: remember we were in a small group and our small
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: group at the time was meeting in the house across
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: the street from our house. Okay. Because we had close
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: friends that at the time lived across the street from us.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: And I can still remember walking across the street and
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: it was nighttime and you were so quiet and you
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: were so subdued and I was like chattering away or whatever.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: And you just were not responding. And I'm like, what's wrong?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: And you were finally able to articulate something. And you
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: said something to the effect of, and you gave, and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: you did believe the best, which was good because you
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: said something to the effect of, I don't think you
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: realize how unbelievably embarrassed I am right now. And you said,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: I don't think you realize you weren't saying you were
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: doing this on purpose. And I said, what, what, what
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: did I do? And You said, and this is what
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: you said, we were talking about something and I can't
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: remember what it was, but it was like the equivalent of, hey,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: we have this new house, you know, the plumbing just broke.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: And you're like, I'm going to try to fix the plumbing.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: And I, thinking it was funny, made a joke of
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: some kind that was like, you've never been able to
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: fix the plumbing in your life. Like you said, your
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: dad was the fix it guy, not you. Let's just
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: hire a plumber. And you said, I don't think you realize.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: how incredibly embarrassed I am right now that you teased
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: me about something that I'm inadequate about and I'm sensitive
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: about in front of all of our friends in our
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: small group and I was like oh my gosh like
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: I would never want to make, I mean, this was
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: my realization at the time. I would never want to
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: make you feel that way. And yet I was doing
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: it over and over. And that's honestly one of the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: key things that started the ball rolling into, oh my word,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I need to understand my husband more. I need to
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: understand men more. And God ended up making this way
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: for us to do this big national survey of men
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: and created the book for women only. And it exploded
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: because most readers were like me and going, I had
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: no idea that my big, strong, confident-looking husband had this
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: self-doubt inside. Right. And I was hitting it.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Well... I mean, that's just an example.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Of being aware. I'm glad I have no memory of that.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you have no memory. I truly don't because...
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: You have, over the past 20 plus years, worked to
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: not do that sort of thing. I have.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Well, it was because I did it so much.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Without realizing it. And there were things that you probably
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: did that I don't have a memory of now.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I'm sure.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: That you've worked on these things. But this second, this
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: step number five, the second step for today, of recognizing
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: what you have to work on, this is so.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Well, we've all heard that truism of you can't change
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: your spouse. Yes. You can only change yourself. So I
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: think that's that's really we need to take that to heart,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: because what I really wanted to do in those early
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: years was change you, you know, so that you fit perfectly.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: I can see why now that, you know, once I realized.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: All the things that I was doing. Right.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Yes. And the same thing. Like, it's really easy for
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: me to, it was easy for me early on to
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: be like, he's working 100 hours a week.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: He doesn't care.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: He doesn't care about me, you know, whatever. Yeah.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: No, I get it. So we did a podcast a
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: few episodes ago with friends of ours, Mark and Jill Savage.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Amazing.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Do you want to share that one thing that, came
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: out of that? I mean, there were so many good
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: things in that podcast.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I'll tell the example and then you can share what
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: came out of it because this was something you were like,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I think we need to raise this. We'll do the podcast.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: So basically, okay, Mark and Jill Savage, we did a
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: podcast with them a number of episodes ago. You can
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: look it up. And the main sort of point behind
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: their story, the main crux of it is that they
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: were both ministry leaders and And Jill led this huge
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: women's ministry called Hearts at Home. Mark was a pastor
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: and then ended up going the wrong direction and he
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: ended up having an affair. And there was this, as
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: you can imagine, this huge, oh my word, what are
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: we doing? And this massive effort on Jill's part To
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: be like, okay, Lord, what do you want me to
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: do here? And there was a lot of discussion because
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: he was like, I'm done. I'm out of here. And
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: she just was like, okay, Lord, what do you want
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: me to do?
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Not what am I going to do? But like, what
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: do you want me to do in this really, really
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: horribly difficult situation? And she felt like the Lord was like,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: just keep being kind.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: And stand for your marriage. Don't assume. Don't throw it
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: out yet.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Don't throw it out yet. Like, don't assume that it's.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: It's over.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: It's over. But there was something that she felt in
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: the middle of that.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was. I remember she said, if I can
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: get it correct, she was talking to the Lord and
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: talking and sharing how hurt she felt. by Mark and
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: all of these things, all of these other things. And,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: and just really was, was struggling and, and verbalizing, you know,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: in her prayer, you know, in her anguish.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Yep. Yep.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: And it was all these things about Mark. And then
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: she said, she felt that the Holy spirit said something
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: to her, which.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Was, which was basically, you know, you're not always the
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: most easy to get along with either.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: You know, like the Lord was like, obviously not minimizing
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: what he had done. But in her laundry list of
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: problems about him, she felt God brought her up short
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: and said, you know, you're.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Not always the best person either. Right. And this isn't
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: God blaming the victim, you know, by any means. But
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: the bottom line is that we all fall short of
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: what we really expect of ourselves. And certainly. Of what,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: you know, we can be doing, you know, living according to,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: you know, as a follower of Christ.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Well, this also brings up forgiveness.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: This also brings up the parables and like the parable
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: that I'm thinking of, and I don't remember the exact numbers, but,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: you know, Jesus saying there was a servant who was,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: you know, forgiven years of income, you know, debt.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: A servant of the king.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: A servant of the king.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I think it was 10,000 talents.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, so many years, more than anyone.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I recently heard a sermon on this with our pastor,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: our former pastor, Tim Keller. So one of his older sermons,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: he was talking about this and about forgiveness. And so
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: in that particular parable, there was said there was a
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: servant of the king and he owed 10,000 talents and
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: couldn't repay it. So the king- you know, said, let's
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: deliver him to the prison and until he can repay
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: his debt. And he said, Oh, I can't, please, please
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: forgive me. And the King did. And then that exact
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: servant went and found another servant that owed him something like, yeah,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: something very small. And, you know, the guy said, please
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: have mercy grace with me. I can't repay it right now,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: but I will. And so, didn't have grace or mercy
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: and threw him into the debtor's prison or whatever. And
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: the other servants that had witnessed both of these things
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: went and told the king. And now the interesting part
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: about this, and Jesus essentially said, and unless you do,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: you know, forgive from your heart, you know, the Lord
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: is going to, you know, hold you to that same account.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: And as Pastor Keller was saying in this particular sermon,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: he was saying, you know, when we think of the
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: use of the term servants, we oftentimes think of like
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: household servants that are working in the employ of the
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: king or whatever. He said that wasn't the case. 10,000
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: talents was the equivalent. He said it's always difficult to
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: get the equivalency of how much that was worth then
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: compared to now. But it was maybe hundreds of millions
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: of dollars. Wow. Okay. And that wasn't something that a
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: normal household servant would have incurred. So what we have
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: here is the king, who is the master in the story,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: and this servant would be something like a regional governor.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: So it would have been a very important leader.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Very important person.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Who had control.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Over a lot of the resources, money, and the resources
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: and money that were being used by this local governor
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: were the king's resources. And so when in a situation
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: like this, when that governor has lost that money, either
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: through fraud, misappropriation, whatever it is, it puts in jeopardy
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: the whole viability of the kingdom. And yet... the King
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: forgave it all. So many times I just, I know
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I've been forgiven it all. And yet when I see
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: one thing that you've done, I am unwilling to go,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I forgive. I'm going to move on. I'm going to
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: let it go. Instead I go and I, put you
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: into your prison of the silent treatment and not talking
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: to you for a day or two. Well, you don't
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: do that anymore. I don't, but I used to. I
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: used to.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Now, thankfully, you've gotten it down to a few hours,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: sometimes a few minutes, or sometimes you even talk yourself
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: out of it before.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Right, and it's because the Holy Spirit has been working
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: on me over all those years.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Wow. And so that's an example of looking for things
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: that you need to forget.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. that makes sense. One of
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: the things that is so crucial here is to recognize,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you know, we're called to believe the best. We're called
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: to work on what we're doing. You know, these are
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: items four and five here. And we have to recognize
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: that not... believing the best of your spouse's intentions. If there's,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: if your spouse loves you not believing the best of
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: those intentions itself can be really hurtful to them because
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: they're trying and trying and trying, and maybe they're not
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: doing it perfectly and they don't know what you need.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: They don't know your love language. Like you didn't handle
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: it correctly. And yet if you believe that they care
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: about you and excuse me, if you don't believe that
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: they care, that itself can be so harmful.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: And the thing is, when they are trying, as you say,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: legitimately trying, let's go back to that small wins in
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: part one of this podcast. How important it is as a,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: in that case, it was a business manager to affirm
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: those actions and those small wins for the person who
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: was taking them okay because it creates this positive emotional
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: feeling so if i want you to be continuing to
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: do the things that you're trying to do to make
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: me you know to build me up and feel loved
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: i need to observe those recognize it and affirm you
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: in that instead of just going that's nice Or just
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: not even noticing.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Okay. I'm going to mention something. This happened at an event,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: a women's event. And I'm not going to say when,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: because I don't want to like make anybody be identified here.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: So I was speaking at a women's event and I
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: was sharing a story about the importance of words of praise. Okay.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: And the story I told is something that happened when
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: we were doing the research for the kindness challenge and
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: the 30 day kindness challenge, which we're going to put
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: in the show notes so that everybody like knows what
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. Um, but this woman, the, the story
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: was that I told was the importance of saying a
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: words of praise at least once a day. That was
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: part of the 30 day kindness challenge. And a woman
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: came up to me and she was like, look, I,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I can be polite to my husband. I can not
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: be mean to him. But those things that you said
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: about sharing words of praise, at least once a day,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: she's like, you don't know Henry. Like, he's a difficult person.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: And so what I'm going to do, and she had
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: this little notebook and she's like, I am going to
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: write down anything that I see that he does well,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: so that maybe I can bank it for the next day.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, Oh dear. And so she comes up
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: to me two weeks later and she really, truly looks
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: like a different person. Like her countenance is completely different.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: And she shows me her list and she says, look
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: at what happened. And she said, day one, This is
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: what she wrote on her list. She said, day one,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: he held the door for me at church and he
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: mowed the lawn. Those are the two items on her list.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: So she said, I said, thank you for the door.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: And I was going to hold the lawn for the
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: next day. So I can say thank you for something
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the next day. And then she turned to day two
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: in the notebook. And it said it had five things listed.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: And then day three had 11 things listed. And she said,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I never had to use my bank. I had no
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: idea that. how much I was focusing on the negative
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: rather than all the good things that he was doing.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: It just, I, I was, I wasn't being hit by
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: those things because maybe it wasn't her love language or whatever.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: And so I told that story at this women's event
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: and a woman came up to me in the lobby
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: at the book table and she said, and again, I
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: got to be careful because I don't want to identify anybody.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: And she said, that story, that you told, that was
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: for me. And she said, I have called a divorce lawyer.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: And she said, I didn't know when I was going
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: to pull the trigger, but I've already, you know, got
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: the divorce lawyer that I know that I was going
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: to use. And she said, when you said that, it
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: was like God opened my eyes and I realized how
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: often I do that exact thing. And she said, for example,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: just yesterday, she said, my husband brought me flowers and
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: I am not a flowers person. And all I could
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: think of is, yeah, great. Now something else I have
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: to take care of because you're not going to notice
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: that the petals are drooping everywhere and they're falling and
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: the water needs to be put in the jar. And
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to do that. I'm going to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: have to keep the flowers tended and put the water
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: in the vase and great. Thanks so much. I'm going
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: to have to do this. And she said, it didn't
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: occur to me. He's doing this because he loves me.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Like he's, that's not my love language. It's not what
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: hits me, but that is what he's doing. He's doing
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: that out of care, not to be obnoxious and make
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: me have to tend flowers in the kitchen. And, and
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: she said, I have so much work. I have to
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: do to believe the best. of his intentions towards me. And,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: and the good thing is, again, we're talking about these
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: little things. You switch the way you're thinking. It does
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: change that. Like you will start to see that everywhere.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Well, I love the, honestly, the practice of doing this,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: of not seeing those things and focusing on those things
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: that do drive you crazy. Okay. It frees up a
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: ton of bandwidth in your brain and in your heart. Yeah.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Because when you are ruminating on those things, it's not
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: like it's a joyful experience. So there is some self-interest
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: even in this. Yeah. You know, of not doing that. Okay,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: step six.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: And we probably need to wrap this up quickly.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, quickly.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: This one's a simple one.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: We can do this simply.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: So what's step six?
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: For creating a great marriage, this is something so small,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: but it's so huge, which is to be kind no
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: matter what. Be kind no matter what. It is so
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: easy to say things to a spouse.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Okay. I was going to say, it's so easy to
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: be kind. I thought that's what you were going to say.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: It's so easy for me to say things to you
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: in a tone that I would never say to a friend.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: And I mean, like, you know, in a way, I
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: think we all have a tendency maybe to do that. Yeah.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: And yet, as we were doing the research for the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: 30 Day Kindness Challenge, we actually found that kindness, including
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: in our tone... is absolutely one of those things that
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: when you get into a difficult situation, it reduces defensiveness.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Like everything is better because of you choosing to be kind.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I get it. And I'm with you in it.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know what we can say beyond that.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Well, one thing I should mention is that we found
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: in the research for the 30-Day Kindness Challenge that we
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: all do think we are kinder than we are. And
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: so being able to recognize, and this is one reason
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: we recommend doing the 30-Day Kindness Challenge, and again, I'll
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: put that in the show notes. these, we do these
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: same three little things every day for 30 days. And
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: it is like, wow, it retrains you so much because
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: you realize, whoa, I had no idea. I was so sarcastic.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: For example, like I think of sarcasm as a superpower
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: and Ooh, maybe it's actually sometimes hurting things. Um, and
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: so I think that that's crucial for people who want
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: a change. Yeah.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: So our one big thing that we always want to
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: leave people with.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: What would it be for you?
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: I think for me, if I was to put like
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: the thing that I am the most struck by is
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: how hurtful it is to you if I don't believe.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: the best of your intentions towards me of how hard
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: you and so many other spouses are trying to care
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: for their spouse and just not being given the credit
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: for that or assuming the worst or whatever, how hurtful
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: and how dangerous that is.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: So that's my one thing. I like that. It's interesting
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: how hurtful it is to the spouse as opposed to,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: it's obviously hurtful to your own wellbeing, all of that,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: but how hurtful it is to the spouse. I like that. Yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: And the choice to believe the best of your intentions,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: how we've seen this statistically is how big of a
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: deal that is as the top habit of the happiest couples. Okay.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: All right. So I hope this episode was helpful. And
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: if you, if you're not a subscriber to our podcast,
• 39:21
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• 39:25
  Speaker 1: know someone who, would be encouraged by the conversation that
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: you just heard who maybe needs it would learn something
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: from it could pass it along please share today's episode
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: with them on social media and tag us thanks so
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: much Thanks for listening to I Wish You Could Hear This.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Remember to subscribe to our podcast. And as always, forward
• 39:48
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• 39:51
  Speaker 1: pastor who would be encouraged. I just want to take
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go
• 40:03
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