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The Way I Learned To Breathe Again with “Jai” Jennifer Greenwald · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Super excited to
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: have as my guest today, Jai Jennifer Greenwald. Jai, welcome.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. I'm happy to be here and
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: looking forward to a conversation with you.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Jai is a yogi, educator, filmmaker, and founder of Kundalini,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: a healing modality that brings together ancient wisdom and modern science.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: A longtime Kundalini yoga instructor, Jai developed quantum healing yoga,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: an approach incorporating breathwork, movement, mantra, conscious awareness, and trauma-informed practices.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: She's also the writer and producer of Kundalini Quantum Healing Yoga,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: The Bridge from Victim to Victory. a documentary exploring her
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: response to the revelations surrounding Yogi Bhajan and her search
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: for a more ethical, trauma-informed approach to yoga. The film
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: follows her exploration of sacred feminine wisdom and neuroscience, embodied practice,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: and personal and collective healing. Archai, just a little bit
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  Speaker 1: about you. Before we get going, share with our listeners
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: where you're from originally and where you are currently.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: So I'm originally from South Florida, and I currently reside
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: in Connecticut, along the shoreline. So we're keeping the beaches around,
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  Speaker 2: but I'm in Connecticut.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: So how does all this start for you?
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: As far as Kundalini goes? Yes. So I didn't actually
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: find Kundalini until I had my first child. So that
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: was in my 30s. So that was my first step
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: into kundalini but prior to all of that I had
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: found yoga in my teenage years because I had had
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: a very chaotic childhood and eastern philosophy and yoga was
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: something that always called to me and so I would
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: find myself in yoga studios and that would be where
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I'd find my sense of peace and But then I
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: also would like to party. So I sort of found
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: myself going between doing really well and thinking about myself,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: my spirit, going into yoga, my health, and then I
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: would turn in the other direction and just go into
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: party mode. So I sort of walked these two worlds
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: for many, many years. And then when I had my
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: first child, I knew that the party lifestyle was no more.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and I had had a difficult birth with her. And
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: she was what I would call a more difficult child.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: She cried a lot. And if she was not in
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: my arms, she was crying. And I remember there was
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: a moment where I was like, I've got to get
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: back to that yoga. I've got to get back to myself.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: And I'd Didn't really feel like I was in a
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: position to hand her over to a babysitter or even
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: her father, for that matter. He had a short patience
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: for a lot of her crying. And I thought, I'm
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: going to have to do yoga here. I'm going to
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: find a yoga video. And I just went online, and
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I saw weight loss and yoga. And I'm like, I
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: need both of these. I just had the baby. I'm like,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: let's knock them both out with one thing. And that's
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: all I saw, weight loss and yoga. I got the–
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: it was a DVD at the time. I got the DVD.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I put it in. It was a Kundalini yoga video
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: unbeknown to me. I had heard of Kundalini, but it
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: was just– it actually– I thought it was kind of
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: weird to be honest. Not the video, but anything I
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: had read about it, it didn't really resonate. Let me
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: pause you right there.
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  Speaker 1: So– Explain for listeners what is Kundalini because I think
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: there's an idea of what it is out there.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
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  Speaker 1: Just give us the nutshell.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: The nutshell. So I'll try and nutshell it. Let's see
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  Speaker 2: if I can do this.
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  Speaker 1: A big nutshell.
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  Speaker 2: A big nutshell. So Kundalini in and of itself is
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  Speaker 2: what animates this physical body, right? There's something that's making
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  Speaker 2: me move and you move and you know, the feelings,
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  Speaker 2: the sensations. I often, it's the life force of the body.
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  Speaker 2: It's the passion, the soul. There's many ways that we
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  Speaker 2: can understand what this kundalini is. And kundalini yoga is
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  Speaker 2: what I believe to be, through my experience and my study,
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  Speaker 2: the most efficient and effective way to tap into the
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  Speaker 2: life force, kundalini energy, in the body and move it
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  Speaker 2: in conscious ways and direct ways. I would also say
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  Speaker 2: that all of yoga, all styles of yoga, are meant
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  Speaker 2: to move kundalini energy. I mean, that's one of the
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  Speaker 2: big points of yoga, one of the many reasons we
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  Speaker 2: find ourselves going to yoga studios, known or unknown. But
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  Speaker 2: like I said, kundalini yoga does it in the most
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  Speaker 2: efficient and effective way. So what is kundalini yoga? How
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  Speaker 2: is that different than perhaps another style of yoga? And
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  Speaker 2: there's many styles of yoga, so I can't really go
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  Speaker 2: into all of them. But kundalini, and I often actually
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: say this when someone first comes into class. I always say,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: whatever you think yoga is, just put it over there
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  Speaker 2: for a moment. Just put it aside and just be
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: in this experience. Because it is a lot of breath work.
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  Speaker 2: It is rhythmic movement. It's mantras. a lot of meditation.
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  Speaker 2: So it may not look like what someone thinks of
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  Speaker 2: when they think of yoga as far as a lot
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: of body beautiful poses or the twists.
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to reveal my naivete here, but I had
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  Speaker 3: thought that kundalini was associated with sexual positions and stuff
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  Speaker 3: like that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, no, it's not. There may be
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  Speaker 2: versions of it. I'm wondering if you're pulling from kundalini
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  Speaker 2: is a tantric practice, and tantra in and of itself
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  Speaker 2: is a whole other conversation. Tantra can be sexual, but
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  Speaker 2: kundalini is considered to be white tantra. And white tantra is, well,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: let me just say tantra is usually like two people.
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  Speaker 2: That's why some people think of it as a sexual
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: practice coming together in union. But white tantra is more
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: self and source coming together in union. So it's a
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: solo practice with source. So maybe that's what is pulling
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: forward for you. I'm not sure.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Yeah. All right. So you've had this baby.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: You're like, I need to lose weight and I need
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: to get my life together here. So what happens?
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  Speaker 2: So I'm doing this yoga. I'm loving it. And then
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: another baby comes along. I have three children all together.
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  Speaker 2: So the first one is when I found Kundalini. And,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I would do it passively. Now, also keep
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: in mind, I'm living in Connecticut. There's no Kundalini classes anywhere. Like,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: it just doesn't exist. So for me to do Kundalini,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I'm just buying another video, which was the same person
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: who I had purchased the first video from. It was
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: just the way he taught. It really resonated with me. Um,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: and then, uh, some years into me doing Kundalini, I
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: wouldn't say I was consistent with it. I would say
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: when I was like, when life was bringing me down
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: to my knees, I'm like, well, time to get back
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: into practice because it's, it's what will neutralize things for
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: me and put things in perspective for me. So, um,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: probably I'm thinking maybe six or seven years into my
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: first time finding Kundalini, it's kind of an interesting story,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: but it's a long story, so I'll put it aside.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: But in a very serendipitous way, I learned that this man,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: his name is Ravi Singh, who was the person who
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: was making the videos that I was doing, he was
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: going to be in the town, like a couple towns
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  Speaker 2: from where I lived, 10 minutes from where I lived,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: giving a workshop. And I was like, are you kidding me?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: This is crazy. I got to go. So I go
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: to the workshop, and it was fantastic. And at that time,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: he announced that he was going to be doing a
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: training in this area if anyone was interested. And I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: I'm doing this. I don't know how. I don't know how.
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  Speaker 2: Whatever it takes, I'm going to do this. And so
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  Speaker 2: I signed up for the training, and that started my
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: path of getting way more serious with Kundalini and the
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: yoga practice. And if I keep furthering that story, I
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: stayed with Ravi's trainings for a period of time. Year
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: after year, he would come back to this area, and
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: I trained with him. And then eventually, as you're doing
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: your thing in life, people are like, what are you doing?
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: You seem different, or you're exuberating more light. Whatever it was,
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  Speaker 2: people started asking me to share the practice with them.
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  Speaker 2: And then one thing led to another, and a yoga
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  Speaker 2: studio became popular. known to me, and then eventually a film.
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  Speaker 2: It's just been one event after another.
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  Speaker 1: What was it about Kundalini? Because you differentiate it from
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: other more commonly known maybe styles of yoga. So you
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  Speaker 1: when you saw this kundalini what was it about it
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  Speaker 1: that got you.
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  Speaker 2: It's it's it's the feeling that that arose within me
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  Speaker 2: and um you know sometimes feelings are hard to put
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  Speaker 2: onto words but The best I could say is, like
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  Speaker 2: I said, any time I did yoga, I always knew
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  Speaker 2: yoga was what I needed to do because it was
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  Speaker 2: just like, okay, I'm home. I get a sense of
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  Speaker 2: who I am. In this chaotic world and, you know,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: the demons of the mind and all of these things,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: yoga was always this sense where I'm like, okay, I'm
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: at peace and everything's okay. And I would say when
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: I did kundalini, it amplified that peace. And I would
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  Speaker 2: also say that when I would do yoga, before I
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: found kundalini, um, it would take me maybe the whole
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: class and maybe even like a little bit after to
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: find that sense. And I remember when I was doing
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: the video that, that, that initial piece swooped in so
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: profoundly within the first, I want to say like three
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: or four minutes. I was like, what is happening here?
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  Speaker 2: It was just very visceral. It was an undeniable feeling that,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: that something's elevating in me.
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  Speaker 1: So what, Bring us to the situation with the film
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  Speaker 1: and Yogi Bhajan. How did all this come about?
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  Speaker 2: So, well, interestingly enough, as I said, I had opened
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: a yoga studio. And I'm even going to pause here
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  Speaker 2: for a moment to say, before I get into all that,
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  Speaker 2: that I always say, you know, Kundalini, it is our
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: life force. It's a very intelligent energy. And if you
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: begin to give yourself over to it, it will direct
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: your life. Now, there's a mantra in Kundalini that we
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: use a lot. I call it the backbone mantra in Kundalini,
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  Speaker 2: and it's Sat Nam. Sat means truth. Nam means name, essentially.
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  Speaker 2: So it's basically truth is my name. Truth is my identity.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: And what is that truth? It's the recognition that I
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  Speaker 2: am an infinite being I am pure wisdom, pure love,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: pure beauty, and anything that's not in alignment with everything
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I just said, which most people are like, well, I'm
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: not sure I'm pure wisdom or pure beauty, right? We
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: all have some garbage that we have to clear to
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: really feel in alignment with Sat Nam. I still do.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: It's a working situation. But I began to realize that
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: when you're vibrating Sat Nam, you know, daily, like in
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: my practice, and then what begins to happen, that's almost
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: becomes like the background monkey mind is just Sat Nam,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Sat Nam, Sat Nam in my life. And when you're
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: vibrating Sat Nam, anything that is not in alignment with
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: your truest and highest path begins to fall off the path.
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  Speaker 2: And that's beautiful, but it can also be painful. I'll
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: say that. There's certain things you're like, but I didn't
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: want you to fall or that to fall off the path,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: but it does, right? So again, my strong practice with
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Kundalini has always helped me move forward when things were
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: falling off my path, but other things were coming in.
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  Speaker 2: And I've always felt that whatever was falling, I've gotten
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: to this place, whatever's falling off or coming in, I
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: do believe it's always been for the highest. And it's
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: always shown me that thus far. So interestingly enough, going
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: back to when I opened the studio, I had actually
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: been doing a meditation for, sometimes I'll take a meditation
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: for a period of time, several months, I'll do the
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: same meditation and really begin to just tap into the
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: subtle energies of what the meditation can bring, because that's
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: part of the mechanisms in Kundalini. And I had been
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: doing this meditation, and when I was doing this meditation,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I started seeing, it was more like a yoga studio space,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say come into my third eye, I
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: just started seeing visions of it. And At that time,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I was teaching yoga in different studios and it was
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: never even, it didn't even cross my mind to open
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: a yoga studio. I wouldn't necessarily call myself a business-minded person.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm just here to be a yogi, teach
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: the yoga, share the healing. That's sort of still how
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I vibe. And anyway, this yoga studio vision came into
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: my third eye. And shortly later, maybe a month or
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: two later, I got a phone call from someone saying, hey,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And I, this isn't anyone I knew. I'm not even
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: to this day sure how she knew me, maybe through the,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: you know, the community. I live in small towns around here.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: And she said, I heard that you live in, I
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: live in the town of Madison at the time. She said,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I have a yoga studio in Madison I need to sell.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And would you be interested in buying it? And I
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: was like, well, let me just go look. I mean,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I wasn't really in the market for it. But when
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: I went to peek through the windows, I was like, holy,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: holy moly. This is the same vision. I mean, to almost,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say 90%, it was the vision of
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: what I had been meditating on in my meditations. So
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: I felt like, okay, there's something here. And this was
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: the year, it was like 2018, 2019, somewhere in there,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: right before COVID. And so, you know, began to move
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: forward on the yoga studio, opened the yoga studio in
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: October of 2019. And, you know, shortly after that, COVID hit.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: And so I was like, well, this is interesting. You know,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: like I've been guided to open this studio. And when
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I say guided, there was other mechanisms at play that
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: kept showing me, like, this is where you need to be.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: So COVID hit, which closed everything down. And then I
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: want to say within a couple months of that, in
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: the Kundalini yoga community, Yogi Bhajan, who was the yogi
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: who brought Kundalini to the West, he had passed back in,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I think it was, I believe the year was 2005
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: or 7. I can't remember off the top of my head,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: but he had already passed. But so here we are
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: in 2019 and all of these, or 2020 actually, sorry, 2020,
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: and all of these allegations are coming out about him
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: that he manipulated his power and abused women. And there
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: was just a lot of not good things coming out. Now, granted,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: this is not the first time we've had a yogi
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: or a spiritual leader or a leader in general come
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: out and have some allegations. But for me, this was
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: my lineage. This was my practice. And I'll even say
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: my teacher, who was Ravi Singh, the man who I
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: found in these videos, he was trained by Yogi Bhajan.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: And he always taught in this way where he said
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: he was an incredible teacher, spiritually gifted, but a flawed human.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: And he always just left it at that. He never
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: really went further into it. Well, when the allegations came out,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Ravi called me and he said, I just want to
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: let you know, like, everything that you're about to hear
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: is true. And that took the wind out of my sails.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, I just opened a yoga studio here
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: in this lineage. And I had to reorient, like, how
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: am I going to show up for these teachings?
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: And....
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: It actually empowered the teachings even more for me. What
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: I found is that prior to really knowing about Yogi Bishan,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: before there might have been some talk about it, but
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: once these allegations came out, it was indefinite. And they
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: didn't come out?
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: They didn't come out in full force until his death,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: after his death?
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Until after his death in full force. There was a
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: woman who wrote a book that was one of his
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: very close aides, a secretary to his. Again, I think
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: there was talk about it, but it was always kind of,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe, maybe not. But it was by 2020,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: it was fully out there. And for me.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Now, and you remember at the beginning, when we first
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: started talking, I said, you know, when I first would
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: see Kundalini or hear about Kundalini, it was always kind
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: of like, I'm not sure if that's for me. And
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I've always had a very strong, I'm very sensitive person.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: My intuition is very, very strong. So I'm always wondering
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: if I was like, I don't want to be in
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: that community. But my teacher, he was a step out
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: of it. And, and, I found the practice through him. Granted,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: he was one of Yogi Bhajan's students, as I said,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: but he had already processed all the yuck. He had
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: witnessed it himself. I think he kept it more private because, again,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: it wasn't for him to speak of, per se. But
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I said, he just sort of said, look, he was
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: a flawed human, but he was spiritually profound. So as
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I process this light and darkness of this human being,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: it began to actually liberate me into the teachings more.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I realized before I always sort of had this like
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: notion of like, am I teaching this right? Would Yogi
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Bhajan approve of this? There was always this kind of like,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: like checking in with this like guru on a pedestal.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: And for me, once he fell off the pedestal, so many,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: many things in my life fell off a pedestal that
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: I had been holding there. And, and it really, when
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I say liberated the teachings for me, it, it, Help
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: me see that all of us have light and dark.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: And I think that we're at this place in time
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: right now where we really need to see that because,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: you know, I have my own darkness. You have your
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: own darkness, right? I mean, we want to move forward
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: in the light, but so much of it.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: And there are gradations. Yes. Obviously. Yes. But let me
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: ask you.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Did these allegations and the severity of these allegations give
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: you pause at all.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah it gave me pause and um and what
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: is very interesting within the the i would say the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: larger kundalini community like the more across the united states
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: maybe even globally is it sort of felt like things
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: went into, people fell into three different camps. There was
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: either this camp of he didn't do it, these are
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: all false allegations, carry on business as usual. And then
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: there was this camp of everything Yogi Bhajan taught is
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: absolutely made up and, you know, the whole system is
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: flawed and, you know, if you're tuning in, you know,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to these mantras, you're pulling in his energy and, you know,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: all the badness around it. And then what I call
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: the middle ground camp, which I fell into, my teacher,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of people in my community is sort of
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: what I was saying. Like, yes, these things did happen. But,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: you know, Kundalini didn't start with Yogi Bhajan. It doesn't
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: end with Yogi Bhajan. Um, there's clearly many people have
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: had immense healing, um, you know, profound transformations through the practice.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: So why would we throw it out? Um, and so I, I,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: you know, I began to carry on from that place. Yeah,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: I guess I could leave it there for now.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Okay. So, but you carry, you create a film based
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: on this. Why did you, what was the impetus for,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: for doing a film and why a film?
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: So like, again, like a lot of things in my life,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: they find me. Sometimes I'm like Kundalini found me, the
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: studio found me. I would even say the film found me.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: I had, you know, I'm doing my thing in my
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: studio and a woman came in one day and she had, she, her,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: her friend was a filmmaker and he, and so she
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: was doing the practice and And he started seeing profound
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: shifts in her and sort of was curious, like, what's
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: going on in that studio there? And started hanging around
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: a little bit more and just hearing people's transformations and
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: healings and elevations. And so he got very curious about it.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: And at that point, I didn't know he was a filmmaker,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: but maybe, I don't know, six months, a year of
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: sort of passively knowing me, he said, you know, I
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: make films, and I would really like to make a
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: film on this. And that initial conversation of him saying
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: that he'd like to make a film, as things go,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: it took several years for us to really sit down
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: and make a film. But over that couple year period,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: another documentary came out. So this is maybe... So where
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: are we in 2026? I think maybe in 2024, 2025,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: a documentary came out called Breath of Fire. It was
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: on HBO. I don't know if you had heard of it,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: which really was showing the practice in a bad light.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: And really, if you watch that documentary, Breath of Fire,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: it doesn't even talk much about the practice. It's talking
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: about some of the leaders in the practice who were
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: not good leaders, essentially. But so it's kind of like,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: you know, how do you separate the teacher from the teachings?
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: And so that was even more of a call to
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: do a film, to really talk about the teachings. And
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: as I began to sit down with this filmmaker and
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: talk more and more and more, he's just a really
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: interesting guy. And he was able to pull more things
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: out of me which made me see how the feminine
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: has been lost in yoga and absolutely in kundalini yoga.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So the film became this inquiry of where has the
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: feminine been lost in these ancient teachings and how do
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: we bring the feminine back? And by feminine... I could
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: talk about this in different ways, but initially it was
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: more how yoga seems very performative and look at me
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: and look at my body, you know, and that's more
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: of the yang, the masculine, the outer world, as opposed
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: to where's the yin? This practice comes from a very
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: yin space of being more in receptive mode, you know, intuitive, sensitive,
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: tapping into the subtle, things like that.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: You know, this, you said, how do we separate, can
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: we separate like the work from the teacher or the
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: human from the work in a sense? And, you know,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: throughout the, well, throughout time, but recently, I mean, there
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: are a number of artists and so forth who, I'm
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: thinking of Michael Jackson, you know, incredible music, flawed human being.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: How do we listen to, can we listen to his music?
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: You know, everyone has their own thoughts, but what specifically,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: how did you manage that? How did you walk that
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: tight rope?
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Well, like I said, initially, um, I mean, I want
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to say it took me a few months. Like, you know,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I had to keep teaching and talking about it because
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: people were coming to my classes and asking me my
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: thoughts on it. And, um, I think what I had to,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: at that time, I had to do that separation for
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: myself because I had to think, like, I know this
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: work works. I know how it's opened up my life
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: and liberated so many parts of my life that had
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: been hard. I had been stuck. I just, that was
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: undoubtedly true for me. I then had to think, like, okay, well,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: this came from this person who these allegations are that he,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: you know, treated people incredibly bad again, especially women, some children. Um,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I remember my teacher putting it to me like this,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: which at that time seemed to help is he said,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you know, like we, we all have a mission in life.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: And I, and I deeply believe that we all have
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: a mission. We all have a purpose. And, um, in
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: the case of Yogi Bijan, um, He said, you know,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: what if his purpose was to bring this practice to
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: the West? And he accomplished his mission, but along the way,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: you know, he did some questionable things. does that make
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: the mission... It's like you don't want to.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: It sounded pretty horrible.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Well, it is horrible. I mean, actually, the words... No,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: it is horrible. And actually, the words my teacher uses,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: he stopped... This is why I paused for a minute.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: He said maybe he stopped at a brothel or two.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I think that's the way he put it before delivering,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: you know, the mission. So, you know, I don't know.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: I think these are big questions because, you know, I
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: think I'm not... Like, one of the things that I
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: said earlier is like when the... when I learned about the,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: the immensity of Yogi Bhajan's wrongdoings, I, again, it took
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: me a pause, but it was, it was like, well,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I think we do have to at times separate the
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: teacher from the teachings. Interestingly enough, Yogi Bhajan, it's almost
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: like he knew. And I do believe people will always
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: tell you, if you listen closely, people will always tell
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: you what they're doing. But Yogi Bhajan is, often would say,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: you know, don't follow me, follow the teachings. And, um,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: and I do believe there's something to be said in
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: that because I do believe most people, I want to
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: come back to, to, to something that has to do
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: with the, the, where, where a lot of these teachings
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: come from. So hopefully I'll come back to that. But, um,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: you know, most people, uh, well, I just lost my
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: train of thought. Let me go here for a minute. So, um,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Because Yogi Bhajan was a Sikh, there is a Sikh
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: influence in these teachings, which has led me to study
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: more into the Sikh lineage, which I find so beautiful.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: And if you know anything about the Sikhs, there were
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: 10 Sikh gurus. And a lot of the mantras that
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: we work with in Kundalini, again, because Yogi Bhajan was Sikh,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: delve into some of these Sikh teachings and mantras. Well,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: The Tenth Sikh Gurus, by the time the Tenth Sikh
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Guru came about, he said there will be no gurus.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: The teaching is in the book of all the gurus.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: So along the way, a lot of these gurus' teachings
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: were put into a holy book, the Guru Granath Sahib.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: And he said, this is the guru now. So I
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: definitely believe that the teachings, I think this is what
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: I was going to say before, The teachings never let
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: us down. They're pure. Human beings will let us down,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: even the ones that are closest to us at times.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: They will let us down, but the teachings won't let
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: us down.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: So through this film, which in and of itself, from
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: what you said, sounds like a journey.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: The film?
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It sounds like your experience of doing it in
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: and of itself seemed like a journey. What was that journey?
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: What came out of that for you?
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: So it's a journey I feel like I'm still on, really.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: The journey became the quest.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: For the balancing of what I'm going to call yin
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: and yang, the masculine and the feminine. And that balance
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: is something that we do internally within ourself. We all
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: have masculine and feminine qualities that we want to bring
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: into balance, that form of sacred union. But the more
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: we're able to bring that balance in, like as in, as,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: you know, we all know the saying, as above, so below,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: as within, so without. So the more I can bring
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: those energies into balance within myself, I'm going to find
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: that balance in the outer world. And I often say
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: that we really need to be looking for healing. Sometimes
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: it's right in front of us and we're not aware
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: of it. We're still looking at the wound. We're looking
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: at the problem instead of seeing, actually, things are healing.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And so just to kind of answer that last part
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: of the question is, You know, I look at healing
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: where we have science, which is, again, I'm going to
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: call it more the masculine, and spirituality, more the feminine,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: coming together. So that's one of the places where I'm
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: still on this quest of looking where science and spirituality
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: are meeting each other again, which would be a form
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: of sacred union. That's just one of the places I
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: begin to look for healing, but that's how I go
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: about it, yeah.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: So your work right now, how would you describe it?
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Would you describe yourself as healing? Simply, and I don't
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: mean this pejoratively, but simply a yoga teacher? Kundalini yoga teacher?
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: How do you describe yourself?
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I would love, yeah, I love simple. I strive for simple.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm always like clocking the simple,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: but I strive for simple. So, you know, I think
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: it's always in the conversation, right? You know, I mean,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: sometimes I'm mom, you know, that's my job. I'm like,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I'm mother, you know, I have three children. In some ways,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I'm mothering the community here. Um, but ultimately I think, yeah,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: if I'm walking down the street and someone, you know, says,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: who are you? What are you? I, yogi is definitely
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: a way that I describe myself. You know, I, I,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: I live yogically. I think yogically. I study yogically. So, um, yeah,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I would say I'm a, I'm a yogi. I'm a
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: studio owner. Um, I share healing. Um, I do trainings,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: but yogi.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: What, And as we kind of wind down here, Jai,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: what does that mean to think and to live yogically?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I would say ultimately there's so many ways we
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: can describe yoga. But a way that I think most
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: of us can understand and understand it is it's about
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: balance and harmony and union and ultimately harmony. I could
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: say that it's the union of the finite existent and
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: the infinite, right? There's parts of us that are finite,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: many parts of us that are finite. You know, at
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: some point, the body, it's a finite body. It's not
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: going to be here any longer. But there is something,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: there's an essence in all beings that seems to be
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: more infinite, right? There's that spirit, that thing that lingers beyond.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what it means for me to
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: live yogically. is to keep those two parts of self
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: in balance. It's not all everything. We live in a
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: very physical world, but there's an energy propping up behind
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: the physical. And what's the relationship I have with that?
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: How do I cultivate relationship with energy, essentially?
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: There's something very... What's the word? I don't want to say...
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: It's more than interesting. You draw... You do have this
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: energy about you that invites... I don't want to say people,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: but you invite in. I can feel it.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you. It's maybe the yogic way.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I like that. All right, so.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: What are you doing now? Who are you working with?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Obviously you have a community. In what ways are you working?
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: How do people get in touch with you?
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I have a yoga studio and I give
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: classes throughout the week. The classes can be attended in
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: studio or online. So they can be done anywhere. So
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: that would be one way to directly try the practice.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: The The website has all that information and more about
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: trainings and the movie and things like that. It's Kundalini, again,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: with a Q. So it's Q-U-U-N-D-A-L-I-N-I. Kundalini.com is how you
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: can find all the things that I do.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: And then there's the socials, of course. But you can
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: find that on the website, too.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: And we'll have each of those linked up here at
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: the show notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. I appreciate you.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Very inspiring. And just love your journey.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, I could picture you sitting there. And I
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: just love the way you articulated it. You saw it
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: on the whatever it was. Like, I need to lose weight.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: And I need to do yoga. Let's do it.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: And then it brought me forward to this moment. Speaking
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: with you. So, yes.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you so much for being here.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: We'll be in touch.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Enjoy this day.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: All right. Take care.