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"The Greatness of Hope" with Luther Smith · The Weight

• 0:00
  Luther Smith: I'm Chris McAlilly.
• 0:01
  Chris McAlilly: And I'm Eddie Rester.
• 0:03
  Luther Smith: Welcome to The Weight. [LAUGHTER]
• 0:05
  Cody Hickman: What is happening?
• 0:05
  Cody Hickman: What is happening? We're in season five! We're in season five.
• 0:13
  Chris McAlilly: Yes, Dad, we are. Let's get it done. All right, here we go. I'm Eddie Rester.
• 0:17
  Luther Smith: And I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:19
  Chris McAlilly: Today our guest is Dr. Luther Smith. He is Professor Emeritus of Church and Community at Candler School of Theology. And he was one of Chris's professors.
• 0:29
  Luther Smith: He was. One of the first professors that I had in seminary, and Dr. Smith is a world renowned expert on the theology of Howard Thurman, has written a lot about that. He also is just a remarkable person with a deep soul, and it comes through in the conversation in terms of his engagement in making the world a better place.
• 0:53
  Luther Smith: What did you hear, Eddie, in the conversation today?
• 0:57
  Chris McAlilly: Well, I think you said it well. He is who he is. He knows who he is. He's rooted in a life of hope and joy and peace and an understanding that hope is God's power in us that releases us into the world.
• 1:12
  Chris McAlilly: And we start the conversation talking about his relationship with Howard Thurman, and how that changed him and transformed him and the gift that that was for him. But then we talk about a recent book that he's written,"Hope Is Here," where he talks about the practices of hope, not just as hope is something that you wish would happen, but as something that changes not only you, but changes the world.
• 1:38
  Luther Smith: I've come across a few people in my life, when I'm around them, I think to myself,"I want to be more like them." And it's not just their ideas, it's their being. It's their person. And Dr. Smith is one of those people. He's one of those few individuals that I've come across that just seems to be swimming in deeper waters, or he's in touch with some thing, the sacred power that I want. I find so compelling. And it's an infectiousness to him. I will say, Eddie, you're not one of those people.
• 2:15
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, that's fine. I'm fine with that. But I know those people, and that's enough. But what I would say, if you're listening today, is this is one of those episodes, you may want to listen to more than once. I won't say that about all of our episodes, but this is one, because I'm gonna go back when it comes out and listen to it again. Because he just kept dropping these kernels of deep truth and deep hope that I would grab. I was grabbing pieces of paper trying to write stuff down. But things that I need to go back and contemplate on and think on. And so I think as you listen today, you maybe just grab a little piece of paper, because, particularly as he begins to talk about the work of hope in us, there's a lot there that all of us need to consider, I think.
• 3:01
  Luther Smith: Yeah, sometimes you get discouraged, because the world is a certain kind of way or that you seem to be facing an intractable problem that you can't get through. And you have to have the resources to get beyond that, to think creatively, as you imagine your way forward. And Dr. Smith is just one of those people that he's thought deeply and intently about what you'll need to get to the other side of that. And so, I hope the conversation is encouraging for you, as you build community. We're in a moment where there is hostility and combativeness. Communities are fragmenting. I hear about families that are disintegrating based on ideology or politics.
• 3:49
  Luther Smith: And it may be that you need a resource to build community. And Dr. Smith may be well timed for you today. Certainly was for me.
• 3:59
  Luther Smith: Grateful to reconnect with him, and always grateful that you're with us on The Weight.
• 4:03
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO] The truth is, the world is growing more angry, more bitter, and more cynical. People don't trust one another. And we feel disconnected.
• 4:15
  Unknown: The way forward is not more tribalism. It's more curiosity that challenges what we believe, how we live, and how we treat one another. It's more conversation that inspires wisdom, healing, and hope.
• 4:27
  Unknown: So we launched The Weight podcast as a space to cultivate sacred conversations with a wide range of voices at the intersection of culture and theology, art and technology, science and mental health. And we want you to be a part of it.
• 4:42
  Chris McAlilly: Join us each week for the next conversation on The Weight. [END INTRO]
• 4:50
  Luther Smith: We're here today with Dr. Luther Smith. Dr.
• 4:54
  Luther Smith: Smith, thank you so much for being here today.
• 4:57
  Luther Smith: My joy. Jhank you for this invitation.
• 4:59
  Luther Smith: It's so good to see you. It's been many years since we were together in person. Dr. Smith was one of my professors in seminary at Candler School of Theology and really one of the first people that I came into contact with at the school through a mutual friend of ours, Don Shockley. Don had been one of my mentors in the Nashville area and had been a regular conversation partner with me.
• 5:25
  Luther Smith: And as I was trying to decide And with you. And just know that not a week goes by that I'm not whether to go to seminary or not, he was encouraging me along the way. And he encouraged me towards Candler and to reach out to Dr. Smith. And so yeah, you were one of the first people that I met in Atlanta, much less at Candler. So it's good to be reconnected thinking about Don and the gift of his friendship, and in so many ways, how my own journey has been so enriched by that relationship. But now you've made me aware of another reason to delight in Don, and that is the connection we've made.
• 6:12
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, so Don...
• 6:12
  Chris McAlilly: I had a connection with Don as a young man from Mississippi, who was in Nashville, and really considering, for the first time, some of the implications of race relations on the church and kind of the social impact on my home state and my home denomination.
• 6:37
  Chris McAlilly: And Don was a conversation partner through that. And it may be helpful just to kind of back up and tell a little bit about that story because it helps frame some of the way in which I received your class and some of your work.
• 6:54
  Chris McAlilly: Don had been a young pastor in Birmingham during the civil rights movement when Dr. King, I think, as he told the story to me, wrote the letter from the Birmingham Jail. And that, and other things, were an impetus for him to transition from Alabama to California, where he met Howard Thurman and developed a chaplaincy, but I don't recall how you connected with Don.
• 7:23
  Chris McAlilly: Where did that connection come about?
• 7:26
  Luther Smith: Well, I was at Emory University. No, let me change that. I had just arrived at Emory University, and Don had just arrived in Emory University. And our getting together was really because Howard Thurman, who knew Don and knew me, felt like we needed to know one another. He sensed that our spirits were very united, and that we would have a good friendship. So Don and I made it a point in our early days just coming to Emory University to meet one another. And Thurman was right. It became relationship through the various valleys and mountaintop experiences of one's life that I just could richly experience with Don.
• 8:29
  Luther Smith: One of the things that I just so deeply appreciated with Don is how it was a friendship of both profound listening and open-hearted speaking, the kind of thing you spoke about, Chris, in terms of his way of dealing with issues of race in this country, and how, for me, Don was someone who I felt stood beside me in looking at the issues and not in any way feeling either very defensive or embarrassed or in some way uncomfortable in talking about matters of race.
• 9:33
  Luther Smith: As you know, he wrote this book,"White, Christian, and Free." And, as Don shared with me, the editors initially were very uncomfortable with that title because they felt as if it sounded rather like the Klan or white nationalists. And Don was insistent to say, "No, I want this title. I want us to stress what it means to claim a racial identity, our faith, and what that means in terms of being liberated people." And if we fail to take seriously our own particularity as being white, then we are making the assumption that somehow or another being white is, and stressing that as part of our identity is to be ceded to those who are klan members and who are racist in that understanding.
• 10:34
  Luther Smith: And it was during a time when Black power and Black theology was being expressed as really crucial to the whole theological enterprise, as well as attending to racial issues. And what was clear in that is, if we're not able to identify our own particularity as white people, as Don was saying, then we are taking for granted that somehow or another particularity has to do about with others, only others. They are the ethnics. We are, there's no ethnicity in terms of who we happen to be.
• 11:20
  Luther Smith: And that's a position with a superior perspective, of we constitute what is normal, and consequently, we don't need to talk about being white. But everybody else needs to talk about matters of race and matters of ethnicity and way.
• 11:43
  Luther Smith: And when you don't claim these elements of identity, I believe that's when we experience great conflict in trying to understand what it means to be companions in the journey, what it means to be in community in ways in which we have deepened our understanding. So to my surprise, how this conversation is opening, you have just touched a very, very deep place in my heart in terms of a relationship that I have deeply appreciated. And it's formative for me. So thank you.
• 12:21
  Luther Smith: Yeah, thank you. And I will say just, and we can move beyond Don Shockley. But as you're speaking, I'm reminded of one of the qualities about him and you, that you both share, which is this depth of soul, just this depth of soul, and a capacity to both listen deeply and carefully, and reflect that back in a way that doesn't just mirror or affirm. But also, Don really helped me not only hear and interpret my own story, as being a white kid from Mississippi who cared deeply about matters of faith, but he helped me navigate the really, really hard questions that I was asking at the time in a way that didn't just deconstruct and leave me with nothing. But that gave me an opportunity to enter into a more constructive and hopeful path. And so I was grateful, just for him. He came along at the right time in my life. And anyway, I, for whatever reason, I connect the two of you quite closely in my imagination. And now I'm cognizant of the fact that I've dominated the early conversation. Cody, I mean, Eddie wants to jump in.
• 13:41
  Eddie Rester: I think one of the, you've already mentioned the name Howard Thurman. And one of the things I wanted to ask you about, before we get to the book about hope was, Howard Thurman was this icon of the civil rights movement. He influenced so many of the civil rights leaders and not just civil rights leaders, but really the world. He helped reshape the world in some ways. What was your relationship with him like?
• 14:06
  Eddie Rester: What do you continue to hold to and remember and maybe continue to repeat all these decades later?
• 14:15
  Luther Smith: Yes. My first experience of Howard Thurman came from hearing him at a conference. It was the National Committee of Black Churchmen in New York, and he was a keynote speaker. I was somewhat set up or anticipating this time when I would be with Black preachers, and I would tell them, "I'm going to the conference." And I could see on their faces this expression of envy and then they would tell their personal stories of having heard Thurman and how moving it was, and so I had an impression of being ready for just a powerhouse speaker and I went to this event. And I just wondered which one of the people in the room is Howard Thurman? Well, Thurman idn't show up until really, it was time for the closing banquet and the address. And when I heard him, it was 180 degrees away from what I had anticipated.
• 15:28
  Luther Smith: Most of the preachers in this conference, in terms of the Black preaching tradition, easily shifted from, you know, first overdrive very quickly, and the room would be electric in terms of not only what was said, but how it was said.
• 15:52
  Luther Smith: And Thurman's approach was so different. He began with prayer.
• 15:59
  Luther Smith: And it was the 139th Psalm. At the time, I didn't even recognize it as the 139th Psalm.
• 16:03
  Luther Smith: I just assumed, here is someone opening his heart to God and speaking in a way that was so evident of someone absorbed in prayer that it was both very, very private, and very, very public at the same time. It was a sacred opening for me, a sacred introduction. And then the rest of the speech just continued to do the same thing.
• 16:51
  Luther Smith: I was so moved by Thurman that I eventually wrote him and asked if I could meet with him, not having any kind of an agenda except to feel as if a conversation with him would be important for my life. And then I referenced the book that Thurman had read, written by Rufus Jones, the Quaker mystic, where he spoke of how meeting Rufus Jones felt to be an essential step in his own journey. And I indicated to Thurman "I feel this way about you, Dr. Thurman, that meeting you would be important to my journey." And he said, yes. And I went out to San Francisco to meet with him at his home. And he gave my wife and I the whole day.
• 17:41
  Eddie Rester: What a gift.
• 17:42
  Luther Smith: Which was surprising because I just thought it might be an hour and a half, two hours. And my connection with Thurman began out of that sort of personal relationship and a friendship. I offered to be of assistance in projects he might have going forth, and he was very gracious in hearing my effort to sustain, I think, the connection in ways that he would find helpful for his own ministry. And lo and behold, it took off from there.
• 18:21
  Luther Smith: I began to work with a dear friend. We sponsored seminars at Thurman's home that were aligned with what Howard Thurman was wanting to do in just being with people over a period of five days and reflecting on the meaning of this of the spiritual commitment to their various vocations, not just persons in ministry, but persons in a variety of professions. And I was also, at that time, involved in doctoral studies, and increasingly became disappointed in seeing how Howard Thurman was not being mentioned in these matters that focused on American history, civil rights, the kinds of transformations that occurred during the Civil Rights Movement. And why is Howard Thurman not there when he's one of the mentors for Martin Luther King, Jr.? Very influential with other people who are deeply engaged in social transformation. But somehow, Thurman is not even a footnote in most instances.
• 19:43
  Luther Smith: And it seemed to me not just an insult of Thurman, it was an insult to history itself. And history was basically being reduced to Martin Luther King Jr. and to what was happening in the courtrooms, which are all important and quite significant in terms of their impact. But when you leave out people like Thurman, who is a major, not just intellectual force for those involved in the movement and others, but also a significant spiritual force that gave people a sense of grounding and purpose for their involvement, as well as what Thurman is offering in terms of spirituality itself, beyond just thinking of the movement. When those persons are erased from being formative in our social transformation, when the poet's are not mentioned, when other academics are failing to be noted in the recording of what are these transformative forces that have led us to the transformations of our past, that's where we have distortions about the past itself.
• 21:08
  Luther Smith: And I decided to take on Thurman as a subject for writing, at least to bring one of these significant figures before us, to be not only included, but to be a subject in that we could see as influencing a variety of fields, both in the academy, but also in our social consciousness about the kind of creative persons who have made such an impact on our lives today, because of how they were serving in the past. I don't know how you dismiss the first African American who met with Gandhi.
• 21:46
  Luther Smith: And that was Thurman. And that kind of influence on others as it relates to transformation. So this is where I gave my energies in terms of scholarship, but it began out of a relationship.
• 22:01
  Chris McAlilly: I'm thankful for that because behind every person who we celebrate for making an impact, there are the stories of those who came before them, who shaped them, who gave to them, who encouraged them, who challenged them. And I'm thankful that you took the time and energy not just to get to know Howard Thurman, but to help others get to know him, as well.
• 22:24
  Luther Smith: Yeah. And as you taught us, Thurman's impact as a student, I'm thinking now as a student in your classes, Dr.
• 22:37
  Luther Smith: Smith. One of the things that you would always hold together is contemplation and action.
• 22:39
  Luther Smith: This sense of the mystical side of Thurman with his philosophy, theology of non-violence shaped not only by Gandhi, but the ministry of Christ. What did you learn from Thurman about those different dimensions of an engaged life, the contemplative and mystical dimensions, together with the active and the engaged?
• 23:14
  Unknown: Well, it very much connected with how I had been brought up in the church, that being the emphasis upon one's personal commitment and formation, the way in which the Christian path is one where you are attentive to your own sense of meaning. And that includes the way in which you're also attentive to the larger environment and what is happening within that context.
• 23:51
  Unknown: And I grew up in a family that, from my earliest age, was quite insistent on having the issues occurring in the society to be part of what was happening in our conversations at the dinner table, in meeting with friends.
• 24:18
  Luther Smith: I can remember at age fiv, being deeply invested in the outcome of a presidential election and hearing the news as to what was occurring throughout, certainly, our city as well as throughout the south and having experienced, at a very early age, discrimination in St. Louis, where we could not eat in department stores. Where they had counters of serving food and drink and when we would take trips to see family in the south, the kind of discrimination there was in terms of places where you could stay and eat, all of this was such an integral part of my formation in family and in my church that was very active in the local community, that when I got to experience Howard Thurman, there was a profound connection, I think with, as you just mentioned, Chris, the contemplative dimension, as well as the social transformation dimension of Thurman's spirituality.
• 25:34
  Luther Smith: And what Thurman did for me was to take me deeper into the kinds of resources that inform the contemplative life, the mystic tradition, which honestly was never a part of my own seminary education. And I felt, in many ways, cheated in terms of that being part of my theological education. How could something so crucial, not only in terms of being a dimension of theological understanding, but in the very life of the church, and in the very life of individuals in the church, not just saints or extraordinary individuals, but how has this been withheld from what was considered to be an essential education in preparation for ministry? It just dumbfounded me and and I say that as someone who feels deeply indebted and grateful for the rich experience I did have in a seminary education, but that tradition was not part of it.
• 26:54
  Chris McAlilly: When...
• 26:56
  Luther Smith: And...
• 26:56
  Chris McAlilly: Oh, sorry to interrupt you. Go for it.
• 26:58
  Unknown: No. So it was a just a world, a new world for me to be delving into the richness of these resources that spoke to me, personally, and which I could see as crucial to the kind of social transformation that had been part of my thinking and desire, as I said, since the early years, and has never, in some way, subsided as being crucial to what it means to be committed in terms of the Christian faith and the way in which justice and compassion must prevail.
• 27:44
  Luther Smith: I wonder if you were pointing someone to a place within Thurman's work or other resources for someone who might want to connect with the resources of that tradition, what would you point to? I mean, I think about "The Inward Journey," I think about"Meditations of the Heart," a couple of Thurman's works. Are there others that you would point folks to that had been important for you or that you think of in terms of essential to Thurman's, I guess, bringing forward some of those resources in a way that was impactful for
• 28:18
  Unknown: I think Thurman's most seminal book is "Jesus and the you?
• 28:22
  Unknown: Disinherited." I had the privilege of writing an essay for a book that is a compilation of 30 of the most influential books of spirituality, and the editors of that book had identified "Jesus and the Disinherited," and had asked me to write the essay. And I think it merits that kind of attention. It was a book that Martin Luther King Jr. carried with him throughout the Montgomery boycott. Many of the civil rights leaders found that it was the book that enabled them to understand why they were engaged in this struggle for human rights and for social change as an expression of their Christian faith. And it has not been out of publication since its writing, since its first printing. So "Jesus and the Disinherited" is, I think, essential in in terms of getting the spirit of Thurman and what grounds him in understanding the meanings of the heart and the meanings of the society being one. And he sees Jesus as the primary example of what this means to God ,that we take that seriously.
• 30:02
  Luther Smith: A second book, I think for those who are interested in the more devotional dimensions of Thurman, "Deep Is the Hunger" is, I think, an important one for themes on Thurman's life that he expresses there. I did a book on essential writings of Thurman, that is part of the Modern Masters series of artist books, and it has reflections from some fourteen of Thurman's own writings that I think can be helpful to persons. And the last one that I think could be essential is his his book, "The Inward Journey," which, when I asked Howard Thurman what among his devotional writing is his most favorite, and he pointed to"Inward Journey" as a personal favorite of his.
• 31:04
  Chris McAlilly: I see this most recent book that you've written kind of bringing together a lot of the threads that we've talked about. The book is "Hope Is Here," and it really isn't just about hope as an idea, but hope as something that drives that social transformation. That hope allows the work of what we're called to be and become and to do, it powers that. So it's tell us a little bit about the book and how you define the work of hope for us.
• 31:38
  Unknown: Yes, it's been important to me, as I said, at the very outset of the book, after hearing my father, coming back from a worship service, indicating that the guest preacher that Sunday, with the sermon based on First Corinthians 13, had concluded that in light of the times in which we're living nationally and internationally, that of faith, hope, and love, perhaps in these times, the greatest of these is hope. It blew my father away. It blew me away, because we had never heard a preacher come to that conclusion. It's always been the greatest of these is love.
• 32:23
  Luther Smith: And what stirred in me is this desire to understand what is the greatness of hope? I've never had an interest of talking about whether love or hope is greater than the other. But what is the greatness of hope? And I've listened very carefully to how people use the word hope. And as you know, most commonly, people are speaking of hope in terms of desire or wishfulness. "I hope my team will make it to the playoffs." "I hope a family member is gets well." "I hope there's a good outcome from the kind of surgery that has occurred with so-and-so." And that's fine, but there's more to hope than simply wishfulness or desire. And it's a crucial term.
• 33:24
  Luther Smith: One of the things I that I begin to realize is that I hear the word "hope" every day more than I hear the word "love." Um, and what then are we meaning when we're using that word? And to what extent is the greatness of hope ever referenced when we're using the word of hope in talking about matters of our lives? And through reading, through my own interactions with individuals, through files I've been collecting over the decades, over 50 years about people in both critical situations and people whose lives I think are inspiring for us in terms of the decisions that they've made, what emerged for me was an understanding of hope that is deeper than just wishfulness and hopefulness and that is, hope is the force of God that enlivens us to life.
• 34:41
  Luther Smith: Hope is a force of God that enlivens us to life, and as a force of God, it is always with us, because God is always with us. And as a force of God, it is always with love, because hope and love are always together.
• 35:02
  Luther Smith: You do not have one without the other. And you have to be very suspicious of any kind of situation where persons are affirming the outcome will be loving, but the outcome has no real hope in it. And I heard this even through something like the Vietnam War, where we had military figures saying, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it." So how is that act of destruction, a hopeful act or an act of hope? It's not.
• 35:37
  Luther Smith: Or what does it mean to be, in some way, looking for a future in which the expressions of love are not prevalent? That's not a true understanding of hope either. And when we understand that hope is a force of God with us, it can begin to change, I think, the way in which we perceive not just every day, but every moment. That at times when I feel quite uncertain about the opportunity or the capacity to move into the future creatively, it makes a difference if I realize that that capacity, that force for moving into the future creatively is with me.
• 36:37
  Chris McAlilly: Yes.
• 36:38
  Luther Smith: And it'll never leave me. Yeah.
• 36:40
  Luther Smith: Yeah, that's so powerful. Keep going. Now you're...
• 36:43
  Eddie Rester: Now you're preaching.
• 36:44
  Chris McAlilly: You've gotten to preaching for sure. Keep going.
• 36:47
  Unknown: You see it with people who are incarcerated, and who have their lives being defined by imprisonment and basically a larger society that remains indifferent to their realities.
• 37:05
  Unknown: And yes, it crushes many people.
• 37:05
  Unknown: It leads to all sorts of mental instability among many people, because of the cruelties that often occur. But there are also examples of people who have found in that setting a way by which they have come alive to life, alive to themselves, alive to their situation. Not just in terms of being resigned to it, no. No, not at all. But many times choosing to go forth to speak about the injustice of their environment, and working to help others who are struggling within that environment, sometimes to just help others to survive emotionally, make it through, whether that person has a date upon leaving or not.
• 38:10
  Luther Smith: If we can understand the power of hope and the immediacy of hope, I think it leads to more creative thinking. But in addition to creative thinking, I think, more faithful thinking about how we engage the challenges of the present.
• 38:31
  Chris McAlilly: You know, I think about when you look at a situation, your own situation, when you look at whether it's injustice or brokenness, you can look at it with... People will talk, "Well, I'm just a realist.
• 38:42
  Chris McAlilly: I see it as it is." And yet hope calls us to see it as God sees it transformed. And if you can see it in that way, then you can begin to work. You can begin to act in more intentional ways in that moment. If all you see is what is, there's just not much to do. You're completely dis empowered in that moment.
• 39:14
  Eddie Rester: So in the book, you talk about some habits that really cultivate that hope that connect that hope to action.
• 39:24
  Eddie Rester: Share a couple of those habits with us. Or maybe the one that you think, if somebody wants a habit of hope that really begins to help them see and act in the world in a new way. What's the one that you'd say, "Start with this one?"
• 39:37
  Unknown: Well, I begin to talk about five specific ones. And the first one is contemplative praying. And how having a contemplative approach to oneself and to the way in which one is going to move forward can be crucial to all the other practices that are mentioned in the book, and I think any other practice that is part of the Christian journey. Because the contemplative praying enables us to listen more deeply, for, as you know, I mentioned the practice of crossing identity boundaries, for example, which I think, involves our ability to really hear how another is defining oneself, and to listen with a spirit of appreciation, and humility, upon what we're hearing, as well as the listen to myself. What is it about my identity that I'm feeling both proud of, as well as I'm feeling, perhaps embarrassed?
• 40:57
  Unknown: And what sorts of things trigger me to react in a very negative or very positive way to others?
• 41:09
  Luther Smith: So it's this contemplative dimension that I think provides a kind of self awareness of self, of others, and of larger circumstances, where we're dealing with systemic justice, or injustice, and the kind of transformations that are needed in society, for us to, I think, reflect God's beloved community.
• 41:33
  Luther Smith: It's very much also needed in something like transforming conflict, which is another of the practices of how we are a people who are not simply perceiving conflict as the problem. But conflict can be a means by which hope is doing its work in our midst. Hope disrupts us. It doesn't just console us.
• 42:05
  Luther Smith: Hope challenges us. Hope, in many ways, disrupts the things we most desire, especially if the thing we most desire is stability and the social order as things are remaining the same. If that's a notion of"this is what I hope for," you can be certain that hope as a force of God is going to be disrupting that way of perceiving what's ahead of us.
• 42:36
  Luther Smith: So these practices, I think, prepare us to align ourselves with hope rather than just thinking about "I want to possess hope so that it conforms to what I want." Let hope possess me, so that I understand the work of hope, rather than simply wanting to hope to be my domestic servant.
• 42:58
  Chris McAlilly: My dream. My thing that I want.
• 43:00
  Luther Smith: Yeah, I think this is, you know, you could insert the word God for hope there. And it's almost like, do you want to use God? Or do you want God to use you? Do you want to receive whatever the spiritual resources that you're trying to access through prayer, whether it be hope, love, faith, any of those things, so that you can reinforce your current position?
• 43:24
  Luther Smith: Or rather, do you want to be decentered in a certain kind of way, so that you're participating in the flow of what hope wants to make happen in the world. I think that's an interesting way to reframe.
• 43:36
  Chris McAlilly: I think your conversation on conflict is so important because we live in a world where conflict is seen as simply, "This is the way it is." We're all going to get mad at each other. We're going to stay mad at each other. We're going to fight. We're going to talk bad about each other. Yet, hope gives us a different option. It interrupts that line of thinking and begins to point us as you say, it allows our conflict to move us somewhere else, other than where we were, or where we were headed as well.
• 44:09
  Unknown: If you're a people who are so reactive to conflict, then your intent is to get rid of conflict, but not necessarily be attentive to the reasons for conflict in the first place. So conflict is often just a symptom of a problem or crisis occurring. And this is one of the reasons why I speak up. A people who are joining the work of hope must discover how to give themselves to befriending conflict, to befriending conflict, in order to understand the conflict that is destructive and the conflict that is creative, because there are times when the work of justice requires us to create conflict in order to undo that which is so pervasively suffocating all of us.
• 45:10
  Luther Smith: And and I think that relates from matters of human rights to matters of the environment itself, and how that's going to be sustained in light of the challenges and the pressures for the environment to simply be a source of economic benefit to a small group of people. It's going to be a challenge, when we're dealing with matters of race, and our capacity to accept the fact that there's going to be many, many moments of discomfort in this process by which we come together and appreciate one another, as sisters and brothers on this journey.
• 45:58
  Luther Smith: I think we cannot appreciate how the path for beloved community entails conflict. And we have ways to prepare ourselves to engage it creatively rather than feeling as if, somehow or another, conflict is a force that is independent of our capacity to prepare ourselves and embrace it.
• 46:28
  Luther Smith: One of the things that is a thread through your teaching and through the engagement that I saw you doing when I was in Atlanta back in the 2000s, around your work with children, and also that comes through in the book is this idea that the engagement of, in the work of social transformation, often which will be filled with conflict, and sometimes struggle and sacrifice and difficulty, there's the necessity of the additional resource of celebration. And you end there.
• 47:12
  Luther Smith: That's the final practice, celebrating, and particularly celebrating community. And I wonder if you might end our conversation there and talk about why that, how you discovered that is a real important resource, and what you're trying to offer there at the end of the book?
• 47:33
  Unknown: Yes, I think this matter of contemplation where we're beginning and becoming aware of self, it can be disturbing in terms of elements of ourselves that we are, in some way, disappointed about or embarrassed about. And I think it's also the case that we can find ourselves feeling threatened and anxious about social engagement. And we can too easily think of transformation as just one weight after the other. What I believe is, when we're talking about being enlivened to life, being enlivened to ourselves, as well as being enlivened to others and enlivened to the systemic realities in which we're living. The struggle, the awareness, can be an experience of joy and a peace that goes beyond understanding.
• 48:42
  Luther Smith: It's what the biblical notion, I think, of shalom is about. It's not just getting rid of tension and conflict. But it's a deepened peace that we experienced together. And I think celebration is vital to sustaining us in the long work that's engaged, because so much of the transformations that are needed will involve years of protest or years of advocacy.
• 49:10
  Luther Smith: They're not going to be resolved in, you know, showing up at the courthouse two or three or four times. And we sustain that kind of activism through celebration.
• 49:25
  Luther Smith: Let me put it in a more desperate way. We will not get to the finish line without celebration, because celebration is the kind of sustenance that is essential to being in the journey and completing the journey. And I would say not just in terms of surviving.
• 49:46
  Luther Smith: Celebration is essential to understanding the journey itself, to understanding it. And there are experiences of joy and peace, and to take one of the prominent themes of the book, there are experiences of beloved community that come out of celebration.
• 50:11
  Luther Smith: So I'm not just needing to wait for laws to be passed, to feel like oh, now have some vision of beloved community. I'm not having to wait for us to have kumbaya moments where, you know, the thousands of us come together and we cherish one another, and we sing common songs. It's moments of celebration, that are not only the vision of beloved community for me, but the experience of beloved community for me. If I can anticipate celebration, it will enable me to get through some of the roughest times.
• 50:53
  Luther Smith: If I can remember times of celebration, that, too, can sustain and nourish me for the journey ahead. And I think without that, we will be more isolated. We will be more bereft of the kind of energy that is crucial to the work of hope. And we will miss what joy, what God intends for us in terms of the joy of being involved in this and not just seeing it simply as obligation.
• 51:27
  Luther Smith: I wonder... That's so beautiful.
• 51:27
  Luther Smith: I wonder if and maybe you would end by telling us maybe one memory where you experienced that? Is there a memory that sustains you, a time where you experienced the things that you're talking about conceptually that you can share?
• 51:43
  Unknown: Yes, well, I've been very involved in working with the interfaith children's movement. It's, when I co-founded, some 23 years ago, an organization, and we held what we called a Seder, a multifaith Seder, around the issue of sexual trafficking, especially the sexual trafficking of children. And there I was in a room with one of the most important rituals within the Jewish tradition, of the Passover Seder. And as a Christian, where that had not been part of my history, and not part of the history of most of the Christians in terms of this particular ritual, but also in this room are Muslims, Bahais, Unitarian Universalists, and people who would not necessarily declare a faith orientation. And we experienced, collectively, a oneness about this journey as we moved through the ritual of one of the faith organizations that are there.
• 53:04
  Luther Smith: We consumed, not only the ritual food, we consumed just food that was part of an evening meal. And so, you know, table fellowship together, and the conversations we had.
• 53:22
  Luther Smith: Table fellowship is one of the most intimate things that people around the world will have together, because it's a public declaration, that you mean that much to me, that I am going to consume food with you. And we would do this. And we sang songs together. And we laugh together.
• 53:41
  Luther Smith: And we understood an issue together and what the challenges were in our community. And there was something about that whole experience, where we left the room certainly affirming our particular religious heritage, and affirming a oneness of community that I think is vital to God's heart and vital to God's vision of beloved community for it. It was an experience, for me, of what God dreams us to not only do with one another, but how we are to be for one another.
• 54:28
  Chris McAlilly: Thank you. What a good gift this conversation has been for me. I'm happy to meet you. I've heard much of you over the years and thankful for your work and your witness and the book that you have shared with us. Thank you.
• 54:45
  Luther Smith: Thank you for this invitation.
• 54:47
  Chris McAlilly: Such a gift to be with you, Dr. Smith. Thank you so much.
• 54:50
  Luther Smith: Thank you.
• 54:51
  Chris McAlilly: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review
• 54:59
  Luther Smith: If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]