Latest / How To Talk To Humans / Thinking Differently About Life, Creativity & Communication with Elisha Shapiro | Part 1

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Thinking Differently About Life, Creativity & Communication with Elisha Shapiro | Part 1 · How To Talk To Humans

• 0:52
  Larry Wilson: What I'm going to teach you is doing this for the podcast every week.
• 0:56
  Larry Wilson: Communicate toward things.
• 1:03
  Larry Wilson: Welcome to another episode of How to Talk to Humans.
• 1:08
  Larry Wilson: And today is a very, very challenging interview.
• 1:14
  Larry Wilson: And of course, the challenge will be to try not to laugh during the entire interview.
• 1:21
  Larry Wilson: Because my guest today is one of my oldest friends.
• 1:26
  Larry Wilson: I mean he's see it's already starting.
• 1:33
  Larry Wilson: I didn't mean to start.
• 1:35
  Larry Wilson: I can't help myself.
• 1:36
  Larry Wilson: We've known each other for so many decades.
• 1:40
  Larry Wilson: And uh when he saw that this podcast had just celebrated its 25,000th download, he was uh outraged when I reached out to him.
• 1:55
  Larry Wilson: He said, Oh, it took you long enough to get around to me.
• 1:58
  Larry Wilson: And I told him, I said, you know, I didn't realize there was a very obvious opportunity staring me in the face.
• 2:06
  Larry Wilson: And uh that's why it took me a while, because he's a man of many talents.
• 2:12
  Larry Wilson: He does many, many different things, not the least of which.
• 2:15
  Larry Wilson: Uh the only reason I tell you this is going to be challenging is because years ago, in the days before there were any podcasts at all, he had a public access television show.
• 2:29
  Larry Wilson: And he had me on as a guest one time.
• 2:32
  Larry Wilson: And I don't know if we even got through the whole interview.
• 2:38
  Larry Wilson: I just remember there were a couple of times we both started laughing so hard that we couldn't breathe and couldn't talk.
• 2:45
  Larry Wilson: So I'm hoping that we'll be uh more uh dignified and refined in this outing, but there's no reason to think.
• 2:54
  Larry Wilson: As I mentioned before, he's a man of many talents.
• 2:57
  Larry Wilson: He's an artist, he's an educator, he's a writer.
• 3:03
  Larry Wilson: Uh he's uh I don't know what you'd call that exactly.
• 3:09
  Larry Wilson: Well, I guess that's part of the art that he does, some of the stuff.
• 3:13
  Larry Wilson: And and we'll touch on some of that.
• 3:15
  Larry Wilson: But what I thought was most interesting is his journey as an autodidact writer, as a writer who taught himself to write, because I thought it was so instructive.
• 3:35
  Larry Wilson: And I hate to say it, but some of you may even find it inspiring.
• 3:40
  Larry Wilson: Um it's entirely possible that you'll hear this and say, wow, uh that sort of sounds like me, or that sounds like something I could do, which would of course be fantastic.
• 3:53
  Larry Wilson: Uh I've said all these things about him, but I I'll tell you more about him.
• 3:58
  Larry Wilson: Uh I said he was an artist.
• 4:01
  Larry Wilson: Um he created a long-running uh art uh piece called the Nihilist Olympics, where uh he stages these Olympics, I guess, every three years, and it's uh predicated on the idea of nihilism that nothing has any real meaning.
• 4:23
  Larry Wilson: And so the nihilist Olympics, uh now some people think of them as uh satirical, which I guess is perfectly acceptable for you to look at them that way.
• 4:33
  Larry Wilson: Um but I think the idea whether it was meant as a satirical commentary on the real Olympics or not, uh, his uh nihilist Olympics were very, very funny.
• 4:47
  Larry Wilson: So a lot of very funny stuff going on in there.
• 4:50
  Larry Wilson: And I mentioned he's an educator.
• 4:53
  Larry Wilson: I uh correct me if I have this wrong, but I think he uh was um teaching English at Santa Monica College for over 20 years, yes.
• 5:07
  Larry Wilson: Yeah, almost 40.
• 5:10
  Larry Wilson: So that would be over 20, wouldn't it?
• 5:12
  Larry Wilson: My God, how time flies.
• 5:15
  Larry Wilson: So please welcome my special guest today, Alicia Shapiro.
• 5:20
  Larry Wilson: Alicia, I'm so pleased to have you here.
• 5:24
  Larry Wilson: And I'm gonna try to play it straight as much as I can.
• 5:30
  Larry Wilson: I'm gonna try not for us to lose control and just become cackling hyenas here.
• 5:36
  Larry Wilson: But Alicia is also uh one of my greatest audiences.
• 5:43
  Larry Wilson: I can make certain jokes that maybe no one else would get it all.
• 5:50
  Larry Wilson: I know Alicia will get it.
• 5:52
  Larry Wilson: And I think that's why he had me as a guest on his uh public access channel to talk about comedy.
• 5:58
  Larry Wilson: But never mind all that.
• 6:00
  Larry Wilson: Um so we've clarified a couple things.
• 6:03
  Larry Wilson: You were teaching at Santa Monica College for almost 40 years.
• 6:07
  Larry Wilson: Yes.
• 6:08
  Larry Wilson: And uh I wasn't sure, I know there was a specialized field of English that you were teaching there.
• 6:16
  Larry Wilson: Maybe you can clarify some of that.
• 6:19
  Elisha Shapiro: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:19
  Elisha Shapiro: I was um I was teaching reading skills and writing skills to uh college students who kind of tested low in those areas and needed a little extra help so that they can transfer to a four-year school and do okay there.
• 6:40
  Larry Wilson: That's fantastic.
• 6:41
  Larry Wilson: That's fantastic.
• 6:42
  Larry Wilson: I knew a little bit of it, but I didn't realize how on point it was for this podcast, uh, How to Talk to Humans.
• 6:52
  Larry Wilson: Uh, I'll I'll fill in for uh listeners and viewers uh the tiniest bit of background that uh I've told you I've known Alicia for years and years and years, and I knew him way back when he was a terrible writer.
• 7:10
  Larry Wilson: And I don't say that to make fun of him or to insult him or not.
• 7:18
  Larry Wilson: He I knew he wanted to be a good writer, but for whatever reason he wasn't.
• 7:25
  Larry Wilson: And to show you how limited my perspective is on things, I just thought, well, you know, some people are good at this, some people are good at that.
• 7:34
  Larry Wilson: I thought, yeah, he'll never be a good writer.
• 7:36
  Larry Wilson: Now, this of course is way before I had learned much of what I've synthesized in the Wilson Method, but an extraordinary thing took place.
• 7:48
  Larry Wilson: I saw Elisha decide that he was going to learn to write better.
• 7:57
  Larry Wilson: He clearly wanted to be a better writer.
• 8:02
  Larry Wilson: And I'm gonna let him tell you more about how this process and this journey took place, but he clearly improved his writing skills, and I would guess just a little bit at a time, step by step, until he there was a point at which, after years of doing this, he got work on a newspaper.
• 8:28
  Larry Wilson: So obviously he his writing had uh improved to that degree, and then eventually became a teacher of English for people who have problems reading and writing.
• 8:39
  Larry Wilson: So uh enough of me, Alicia.
• 8:41
  Larry Wilson: Tell me about uh as much as you care to, or as much as you can, about that process.
• 8:49
  Elisha Shapiro: Yeah, okay.
• 8:50
  Elisha Shapiro: Um, well, I remember uh when we were in high school together, and uh that that wasn't the first time we met.
• 9:00
  Elisha Shapiro: Um but I we were there was an English class, pardon me, and uh we were told to read a book and write an essay about what the theme of the book was, and I remember that was just about the time, I'm thinking in 1970-ish, um when the Beatles came out with an album called Let It Be.
• 9:30
  Elisha Shapiro: And the Rolling Stones came out with an album called Let It Bleed, and I was a big Rolling Stones fan, and I was listening to the two albums, and I was I realized the Rolling Stones are making fun of the Beatles of being stupid, and the Rolling Stones are smart.
• 9:54
  Elisha Shapiro: And I saw that in the lyrics.
• 9:57
  Elisha Shapiro: I mean, uh kind of it's somehow it's central in my life when I listen to what people say, and I can hear the even if they're kind of hinting at it in an ironic way or a backwards way, I'm still hearing the joke as what we were talking about before.
• 10:18
  Elisha Shapiro: And I said, this is good so great.
• 10:21
  Elisha Shapiro: I don't want to write an album, I don't want to write an essay about that book we just read.
• 10:27
  Elisha Shapiro: I want to write an essay about this these songs.
• 10:32
  Elisha Shapiro: So um I wrote an essay called Let It Be versus Let It Bleed.
• 10:39
  Elisha Shapiro: And I gave it to the teacher.
• 10:41
  Elisha Shapiro: And I don't remember, I think it was a male teacher.
• 10:46
  Elisha Shapiro: I can't remember who our English teacher was at the time.
• 10:49
  Larry Wilson: Yes, I I think it was Mr.
• 10:51
  Larry Wilson: Bartin.
• 10:52
  Elisha Shapiro: That sounds right.
• 10:53
  Elisha Shapiro: Anyway, so uh anyway, uh I didn't know what was gonna happen, but he uh he did give me back the paper and said he really liked it, and he gave me some suggestions that I use more lyrics to support my argument.
• 11:10
  Elisha Shapiro: So I had to kind of build, I had to kind of go back into the song and quote both songs so that um Mother Mary comes to you telling words of wisdom, let it be.
• 11:23
  Elisha Shapiro: So that's like stupid Beatle stuff.
• 11:25
  Elisha Shapiro: And then like then I'd quote like some like dark line from the Rolling Stones song just about how life is not fucking like that, and and um life is dark, and you've gotta struggle through it, and there's no Mother Mary is gonna come and save you.
• 11:43
  Elisha Shapiro: So I like so I sort of started quoting stuff, and I thought, and I'm not sure why that was speaking to me.
• 11:52
  Elisha Shapiro: I mean, I have my theory now as to what like drives artists to do what they do.
• 11:59
  Elisha Shapiro: Um, but it was like, okay, these people see the world the way I do, and those people don't see it.
• 12:08
  Elisha Shapiro: And somehow I want to be able to like be able to talk about that in a way that other people might be able to understand.
• 12:16
  Elisha Shapiro: So that was kind of like the first the first kind of encouragement I got for writing about art that somehow was important to me.
• 12:29
  Elisha Shapiro: Um I know like maybe the next semester or the next year, um I did write a play and put it on.
• 12:38
  Elisha Shapiro: And you may remember that.
• 12:42
  Larry Wilson: The rantic epic.
• 12:45
  Elisha Shapiro: Yes.
• 12:45
  Elisha Shapiro: Thank you.
• 12:47
  Elisha Shapiro: I was I was looking through my closet saying, Do I have a copy of that play somewhere here?
• 12:52
  Elisha Shapiro: And I found like several other things, but uh not not the rantic epic.
• 12:58
  Elisha Shapiro: Anyway, it was my idea of taking um, anyway, it was the satire also, but it was uh it was taking um uh Jesus' Last Supper and turn it into a Jewish Seder with a lot of like the mother people feeding him matzah and people complaining about shit.
• 13:22
  Elisha Shapiro: Anyway, so I just wanted to somehow satirize the Last Supper for Jesus by turning it into a really Jewy thing.
• 13:31
  Elisha Shapiro: Which is probably what it was.
• 13:34
  Elisha Shapiro: Anyway, so that was kind of my early recollections of like why the writing thing appealed to me and why I kind of wanted to be like the Rolling Stones and being able to make fun of stuff that seems kind of silly to me.
• 13:52
  Elisha Shapiro: I see.
• 13:54
  Elisha Shapiro: I don't know if that answers your question, but that is the first thing that came to mind.
• 13:59
  Larry Wilson: Well, it starts to answer my question, it explains your interest in these things, but then I have a clear memory, and and of course, maybe it's false, maybe I made it up, but I have a clear memory of you uh uh setting on a very disciplined path to improve your writing.
• 14:24
  Larry Wilson: Now, now, you know, uh maybe I'm completely conflating this with other events.
• 14:34
  Larry Wilson: Maybe I've got this all wrong.
• 14:36
  Larry Wilson: I have a memory of you giving me something that you'd written to ask for my uh feedback on it.
• 14:44
  Larry Wilson: And I can't remember what it was.
• 14:47
  Larry Wilson: I can't remember.
• 14:48
  Larry Wilson: I I I feel like it was a short essay, like maybe a couple of pages of something.
• 14:53
  Larry Wilson: And goodness knows I I don't know what my brilliant uh feedback was, but I got the feeling that you were really had set out on a a journey of somehow uh teaching yourself to write better.
• 15:16
  Larry Wilson: Is that right?
• 15:19
  Elisha Shapiro: That sounds like I would have d I would do that.
• 15:23
  Elisha Shapiro: I know.
• 15:24
  Elisha Shapiro: Um yeah, I mean I it just just writing, getting putting words on paper and getting these ideas out on paper.
• 15:36
  Elisha Shapiro: Um I did have a feeling uh wondering whether other people would understand what I was getting at.
• 15:43
  Elisha Shapiro: And um and I I guess that's why I I kind of tried to try to test audiences with you or asking, you know, what are you do you do you get it?
• 15:58
  Elisha Shapiro: Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
• 16:01
  Larry Wilson: Um so I did you well did you turn to some was there uh some guide or some mentor or some was there something that suggested to you because uh again I may be making this up, but my memory is when you started taking it seriously, that you were writing every day.
• 16:25
  Larry Wilson: Is that correct?
• 16:27
  Larry Wilson: I it could be.
• 16:30
  Larry Wilson: I don't remember that well.
• 16:32
  Larry Wilson: Well uh I mean that was my memory, is that you took it very seriously.
• 16:39
  Elisha Shapiro: I think I think I also was enjoying it.
• 16:42
  Elisha Shapiro: Somehow that idea of getting ideas from my head out out of where other people might be able to br to perceive them.
• 16:52
  Elisha Shapiro: So I know I had ideas in my head, um and I wasn't sure, you know.
• 16:59
  Elisha Shapiro: I um I am uh, you know, I've I've been tested as an introvert.
• 17:10
  Elisha Shapiro: I'm not the kind of person who um, you know, can get into other people's heads immediately because I'm wearing my own head.
• 17:20
  Elisha Shapiro: Um so that experimentation I think might be part of that.
• 17:26
  Elisha Shapiro: Like, okay, I can I can connect with other people, it just takes a little extra work.
• 17:33
  Larry Wilson: Interesting, interesting.
• 17:35
  Larry Wilson: And so uh these this is something I didn't know.
• 17:38
  Larry Wilson: Um but so does that mean that writing was a more effective way for you to connect with other people rather than talking?
• 17:54
  Elisha Shapiro: Um yeah, I'm not sure effective is the word, a more pleasurable is the word for me.
• 18:00
  Larry Wilson: I see.
• 18:00
  Larry Wilson: Okay.
• 18:01
  Larry Wilson: And we're assuming you meant pleasurable for you.
• 18:05
  Larry Wilson: Yes.
• 18:07
  Elisha Shapiro: I just going up and talking to people is not as much fun for me as it is for you.
• 18:13
  Elisha Shapiro: I see, yes, yes.
• 18:16
  Elisha Shapiro: Um, but being able to connect with them without the the work of uh the talking face to face, um, seemed like, oh, I I can get the pleasure in that without having to put in the exp that difficult work for the introvert.
• 18:35
  Larry Wilson: Well, this is uh uh great.
• 18:37
  Larry Wilson: I mean, this is fantastic stuff because of course it speaks directly to stuff in Wilson Method, but it speaks to some things I've never addressed in this training, which is uh I mean, I I I'm sure tangentially I have said, because I talk about speaking and writing, but I've never said, oh, you have to learn how to do this speaking stuff.
• 19:03
  Larry Wilson: I've taught techniques that people who have difficulty or do not find it pleasurable can use to become better at it.
• 19:13
  Larry Wilson: But I've never approached it from what you're saying right now, which I think is really interesting, the idea that even if you really don't like talking to people, you may still feel a need, a desire to connect with them.
• 19:34
  Larry Wilson: And so you've got to find some outlet, you've got to find some way to do this.
• 19:43
  Larry Wilson: Um I would like to think because I think so highly of myself, I would like to think that I could teach anyone to be able to do that.
• 19:53
  Larry Wilson: But of course, maybe I'm wrong.
• 19:55
  Larry Wilson: Maybe there are a lot of people who it's too difficult or too unpleasant or simply not pleasurable for them, uh speaking face to face.
• 20:06
  Larry Wilson: But if you're one of those people and you're watching this or listening to this, you might identify with what Alicia's saying here, which is still have a driving need to connect.
• 20:25
  Larry Wilson: And that writing, of course, is uh certainly a fantastic way to do it, obviously using different skills than speaking.
• 20:37
  Elisha Shapiro: And you know, I I'm also talking as an artist, uh the weird artist that uh you mentioned me being.
• 20:45
  Elisha Shapiro: Um that's also part of being an artist is, and I think I don't know where I wrote this idea down, but you know being um you see the world differently than everybody else, and you want to be able to somehow create something that will let other people see the world the way you see that.
• 21:10
  Elisha Shapiro: So that's kind of when the Olympics, even though I and a lot of a lot of this dri my humorous art is driven by thinking other people are dumb.
• 21:22
  Elisha Shapiro: Um when the Olympics were announced that they were coming to LA in '84, or they were announced in 80, um, I was people were going crazy.
• 21:34
  Elisha Shapiro: And I was thinking, they're so being so dumb about these Olympics, let's do something to let them see that they shouldn't take it so seriously.
• 21:45
  Elisha Shapiro: And so me and my friends created these alternative Olympics that were funny, that were that were satire of the regular Olympics.
• 21:57
  Elisha Shapiro: And of course, the press went crazy.
• 21:59
  Elisha Shapiro: And wrote all about them.
• 22:01
  Elisha Shapiro: And I was able, I was feeling like, oh, maybe they some people will look at the my art uh in the newspaper and think, oh, maybe I shouldn't take these so seriously.
• 22:15
  Elisha Shapiro: So somehow I was able to communicate my other point of view through the art.
• 22:21
  Larry Wilson: Very effectively.
• 22:22
  Larry Wilson: Very effectively.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: And that's pleasurable, even though I don't want to talk tell them when told every individual you're being stupid about the Olympics.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: But I do, I do want to create some fun thing that uh will let them see the world the way I do.
• 22:40
  Larry Wilson: Have I ever mentioned one of the things I admire about you is how non-judgmental you are.
• 22:45
  Larry Wilson: Alicia Shapiro believes all these other people are dumb.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: But well, of course that's fun.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: That gives me something to laugh at in my life.
• 23:01
  Larry Wilson: It there's no question about it, as long as you're having fun.
• 23:04
  Larry Wilson: As long as you're having fun.
• 23:05
  Larry Wilson: Now, um, so uh my memory of this is that you began this process of becoming a better writer by writing every day.
• 23:17
  Larry Wilson: And by I guess uh if I was an example of you were seeking feedback from people about your writing, were there books, were there authors that you studied, or anything specifically about I I think of E.
• 23:38
  Larry Wilson: B.
• 23:38
  Larry Wilson: White.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Uh I'm trying to remember who who I was reading way back then.
• 23:47
  Larry Wilson: Yeah.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I mean a long time ago.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: There was was Fear and Loving in Las Vegas out in when we were in high school.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: I loved that book.
• 23:58
  Larry Wilson: Yeah.
• 23:58
  Larry Wilson: I I don't think so.
• 24:02
  Larry Wilson: I don't think it it had come out yet.
• 24:05
  Larry Wilson: I'm not sure.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: But there are I mean there were a few books um but I'm having a hard time remembering what like my favorites were at that time out um but there were I mean I did find books and say, oh man, these guys are you know he's doing something that I want to do, you know.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: And um that's what I'm talking about.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:32
  Larry Wilson: And well now, is this memory accurate that you were a big fan of Mark Twain?
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and still am.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Um and he was, you know, you could see Stephen uh I mean I don't know if people a hundred years ago saw the same ironic way he was making fun of people being assholed, um, that that we can see now.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: But um well they must have, right?
• 25:04
  Larry Wilson: I guess I guess so.
• 25:06
  Larry Wilson: That that's got to be the secret to his success and longevity.
• 25:11
  Larry Wilson: I mean, it's got to be.
• 25:15
  Larry Wilson: Um but you must have seen something.
• 25:18
  Larry Wilson: I mean, Twain's writing is incredible.
• 25:21
  Larry Wilson: I mean, is incredible.
• 25:23
  Larry Wilson: Um I remember now see.
• 25:27
  Larry Wilson: Well, no one can prove whether I'm right or wrong, so I may as well act like I'm positive about all this.
• 25:35
  Larry Wilson: I remember there was a Twain essay that you really liked, that uh obviously was satire uh and brilliantly written in Twain style.
• 25:47
  Larry Wilson: I'm sure you anyone who's watching or listening can uh look this up.
• 25:52
  Larry Wilson: Uh it was about it it was about how uh there were always accidents with 11-year-old boys handling firearms that they would always wind up, you know, they would handle them improperly and it would go off and it would kill someone two miles away.
• 26:17
  Larry Wilson: And so Twain's uh idea was that they should form a militia made up entirely of 11-year-old boys who had no training with firearms because they would be the most deadly kind of uh army that you could assemble.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Does that ring a bell?
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I have a hard time remembering that particular story.
• 26:39
  Larry Wilson: Well it's my memory, my memory is that you thought this was hilarious.
• 26:45
  Larry Wilson: And and I think more importantly, you saw the genius of Twain being able to write that kind of satire to make a point.
• 26:57
  Larry Wilson: Um that's my that's my memory at least.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: There was actual content in it, there was a point, and you you don't have to come out and say it.
• 27:08
  unknown: Right.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: You can you can paint a picture that uh people can the the implied uh the inference, they can figure it out.
• 27:21
  Larry Wilson: Right.
• 27:22
  Larry Wilson: Now, uh are there any other Twain uh pieces that come to mind, or am I putting you on the spot like this?
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Well, it's been a long time.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Uh uh I uh Hassan had a a black pal.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Um and so yeah, he was dealing with slavery in an interesting way.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Um but yeah, I know there were you're right.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: The the short stories and the short essays, I remember reading them and thinking they were brilliant.
• 28:04
  Larry Wilson: You know, sometimes I get so involved that time just slips away.
• 28:09
  Larry Wilson: There's so much here I want to share with you, but I don't want to take up more of your life.
• 28:15
  Larry Wilson: So we're gonna continue the second part of this next week, and it only gets better.
• 28:23
  Larry Wilson: This has been Larry Wilson.
• 28:25
  Larry Wilson: I want to thank you for spending this time with me, and I hope you found this information useful.
• 28:31
  Larry Wilson: If you're looking for more, you can find it at thewilsmethods.com.com because I will be still being the end of the next August August 12th.