Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 347 - Not Frowned Upon In Canada

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 347 - Not Frowned Upon In Canada · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Yoyo, it's your boy, the Tesla King helon mosque. The
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: boys always make my rocket shoot straight up. No homo,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: you bout to listen to the number one JFK related
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: podcast on planet Mars. Now plug in your neural link
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: for two numb nuts who aren't a waste of government spending,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the Triple B and Joe By.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: He is up, Tommy and Joy, Chokey and Raven and
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Joey Rock Conde Job Redmies and Joby Joey.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: And the Name and Tumble.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Then show me rop Dotey Job Brady.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: A Sellom Joe Killie.
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: And here we go, Here we go, indeed, what's up?
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: Welcome folks into episode number three hundred and what Joe.
• 1:27
  Speaker 5: Three and forty seven?
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: Yes, one of Joe's favorite prime numbers.
• 1:33
  Speaker 5: My hockey jersey number. Yes, and not for the reason
• 1:35
  Speaker 5: you might think.
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  Speaker 4: I wasn't aware of any sexual position that was then construed.
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: It was a forty seven. But if you say that,
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: that's what.
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: The kids are doing, man, it's new. I'll tell you
• 1:48
  Speaker 5: all here.
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  Speaker 4: All right before we get going here, we got we
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: got an awesome guest primed and ready for you guys
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  Speaker 4: this evening his name is Andrew Eiler from UH, Canadian
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: and let's welcome in some of our folks, Joe. I
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: don't I don't know if anybody is from Canadia except
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: our lovely number one Canadian fan, Caroline, who Alan Dale
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: is quite fond of as well, asmir, Everyone is fond
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: of her. Everybody loves Caroline. She is the Canadian national treasure.
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: Maybe we will have more Canadian fans after this episode.
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: Bro, Maybe so maybe so. Unfortunately we are frowned upon
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: in Vancouver, Canada.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: But our guest is not from Vancouver, so we're good.
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: Right, Well, he's not frown upon at all. So yes, yes, Sally,
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  Speaker 4: welcome in from across the pond. Hello, Sally. Shreveport. Tray
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: is on his way to treat Shreveport this evening as
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: I as I read making a taco stop in UH
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: in Texas, Scott just placed a big order with Silk
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  Speaker 4: City Hot Sauce. He used our code, Joe, So thank you, Scott,
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  Speaker 4: appreciate it.
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: And since you just laid that up for me, I
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: have to say so. I am obviously not my usual
• 3:16
  Speaker 5: podcast location today. I'm Catskill Joe up in the Catskill Mountains,
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: upstate New York. But I did remember so Rob. I
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: got an awesome Silk City order two days ago from
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: Jeff and about ten bottles, and the one I was
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: most excited for the Maple hobbin aro. You know I
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: like the hobbin aro.
• 3:38
  Speaker 6: Yes.
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  Speaker 5: And I have a friend and his wife and his
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  Speaker 5: two daughters and my nephew or nephew nieces and here
• 3:49
  Speaker 5: and she is making some dinner. So after the show,
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  Speaker 5: I'm going to crack it open and I cannot wait.
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  Speaker 5: But I just want to thanks Jeff for that, and
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: thank you Scott for placing a big order. I hope
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: you got the Maple hobbin arrow. I think it. They
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  Speaker 5: just put it on the site this week.
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: Hell yeah, So thank you Jeff. And they do ship
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: to Canada and overseas as well. Uh see, no eagles
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: up in the house? What is up? South to West?
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: Every buddy, Paul Cummings is in the house.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: What's up?
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  Speaker 4: Paul? Hey dancer. We'll get back to you here in
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  Speaker 4: a minute, Miss Tiny Paula Jane, Hello Paula. The double
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: B is in the house. And the triple B that's me,
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: Random Brooks is in the house.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: What's up?
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  Speaker 4: Randy? Back for another round. Uh Graham keenan Hello from
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: Scotland SKK Scotland. What's up, Graham? I think that's it
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  Speaker 4: for now, Joe. I'm sure we'll have some more stragglers
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: straggle in. And before we get started with Andrew, I
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: gotta I gotta show you guys something and for the
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: members only, we played it Wednesday, but check this out.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: I didn't even know that we could do this with
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: our merch. So without further ado, I'm just gonna show
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: you guys a couple of merch commercials from from some
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: of our lovely female UH members and fans and friends.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: So without further ado, everybody remembers UH, the lovely Sally
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: who bought one of our shirts. I'm gonna I'm gonna
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: remind everybody about Sally. And then we're gonna see a
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: little something from Tiny I do believe. Or no, maybe
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: we'll see Tiny first. Yes, we will see Tiny first. Okay,
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: here we go. You'all gonna love this. This is awesome. Sorry, Andrew,
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: we got we got fans making commercials for us, but
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: check this out. Look at this mug. I didn't know
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: you could personalize it like this. How cool is that.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, that looks really good. That's awesome.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's freaking awesome. Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: And the question I asked tiny was how did it
• 6:44
  Speaker 5: go over in Langley? When other people see that mug,
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  Speaker 5: they go, what's up with this?
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  Speaker 6: Ruby?
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  Speaker 5: Does you need to be freed? Etcetera, etcetera.
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  Speaker 4: And I am not going to answer the Pentagon anything spook.
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  Speaker 5: No.
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  Speaker 4: At least we know.
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  Speaker 5: About Look who's in the house, buddy, oh.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: DC, glad their power came back on in uh deerfoot
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: hollo there good to hear. Apparently that his power got
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: knocked out by a thunderstorm here a couple of hours ago,
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: but apparently he's back on.
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  Speaker 5: Good.
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  Speaker 4: All right, all right, Joe, let's bring on the guests
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  Speaker 4: and I'll let you handle the introduction. Andrew, let's me
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  Speaker 4: look back here to the green room and open the
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  Speaker 4: door and let him out and let him into the arena. Everybody,
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  Speaker 4: welcome mister Andrew Eiler to the show. Fam good evening, guys,
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  Speaker 4: Hey Andrew, Hello, sir, good the pleasure is ours, sir.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, so uh so, Andrew. I mean, I'll let you
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  Speaker 5: get into some of your background, but uh he is,
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  Speaker 5: of course, and I'm gonna start this off with a
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  Speaker 5: funny story, Rob, and I just put up Doug's comment,
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  Speaker 5: He's going to know this. So you spoke at the
• 8:06
  Speaker 5: banquet at Lancer and that's where I met you at
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  Speaker 5: last November, and there was a raffle. Okay, okay, and
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  Speaker 5: guess what I won?
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  Speaker 4: Andrew?
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  Speaker 6: I think I even signed it for you.
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  Speaker 5: You just you just ruined it.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, oh no, you did.
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  Speaker 5: You did sign it. So there are four of the
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  Speaker 5: five Chokehold authors on here. And do you want to
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  Speaker 5: take a guess as who did not sign it?
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  Speaker 6: You want me to guess, well, I would imagine since
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  Speaker 6: one of us was not there in Dallas in November,
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  Speaker 6: that would be uh the gentleman who who did not
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  Speaker 6: sign your book? But if you want, I can. I
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  Speaker 6: can get you assigned copy by all far.
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  Speaker 4: I'm still waiting on my advanced cup be in the book.
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  Speaker 5: And okay, well, Andrew, I actually offered I offered this
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  Speaker 5: book to him because I figured these four signatures would
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  Speaker 5: suit him the best. But he didn't accept. He said
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  Speaker 5: keep it for you.
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  Speaker 6: Know what I I do have to say, I I
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  Speaker 6: can one up that in that. When I was in Washington,
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  Speaker 6: I had Oliver Stone sign my copy of the book.
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  Speaker 6: So I was pretty uh, pretty pleased to to have that.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, that that is definitely a one up. And I
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  Speaker 5: think you met him when you were you're referring to
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  Speaker 5: the first hearing, of course, the first we refer to
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  Speaker 5: it as Task Force Hotty.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, the April Fool's Day hearing.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, that that that was ironic as well. But but
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  Speaker 5: Andrew is a co author of the book JFK Assassination
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  Speaker 5: Choke Holds. He's a lawyer and Antona, Ontario based lawyer
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  Speaker 5: practicing in the areas of corporate, commercial, and administrative law,
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: having served on or chaired provincial and federal government tribunals,
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  Speaker 5: appeared as counsel of the Federal Court, Ontario Court of Appeal,
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  Speaker 5: Ontario Superior Court, and numerous federal and other tribunals. So
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  Speaker 5: and over the last few years, Andrew has developed a
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  Speaker 5: comprehensive base of knowledge in and around the JFK Assassination
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  Speaker 5: of Records Collection Act of nineteen ninety two and the
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  Speaker 5: legal aspects surrounding the investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy.
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  Speaker 5: And I will one up that, Andrew and say you
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  Speaker 5: might be the community's foremost expert right now and really appreciate.
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  Speaker 6: Well, thank you for the introduction. Joe. It was nice
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  Speaker 6: meeting you in Dallas. I haven't had the pleasure of
• 10:52
  Speaker 6: meeting Rob in person, but I definitely have been a
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  Speaker 6: longtime listener of the shows.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: You have had the pleasure. Andrew, It's never a bad time, no, no,
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  Speaker 4: I mean I was in Dallas in twenty nineteen, but
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  Speaker 4: back then the show wasn't on YouTube. Nobody knew what
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  Speaker 4: I looked like, so I kind of I went way
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  Speaker 4: under the radar. I was just a faceless schmuck back then.
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  Speaker 4: But you know, Joe gets on here, he was on
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  Speaker 4: here for a year. He goes down there and he
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  Speaker 4: gets you know, he's getting people asking him for autographs.
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  Speaker 4: And yeah, that was a fun conference and it was
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  Speaker 4: it was good to meet a few people down there.
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  Speaker 4: And I did make a point of up running directly
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: into Joe, I think very shortly after you won the book.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, well it was a little yeah, and the award
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  Speaker 5: for my research, right it was mine and Rob's research.
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  Speaker 4: On of course, I.
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  Speaker 3: Got my T shirt.
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  Speaker 7: I love it, thank you very much. And if you
• 12:04
  Speaker 7: can get one, everyone get one because they're great. And
• 12:08
  Speaker 7: the lads do so much work for us and it's
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  Speaker 7: well deserved.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you, oh, thank you, Sally.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, just throwing that in there.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: I like it, and uh, I think how I apologize.
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  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: I meant to play it earlier, but it just just
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: jammed on in there, and and Trey was demanding, so
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: he pulled his car over to watch the movie. Now,
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: I just need to figure out how to get it
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: off the screen, and uh, I'll be okay.
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: Hey, Rob, you know I was meaning to tell you yesterday.
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: I guess stream Yard, which is what we used last
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: to stream some huge like outage and a bunch of
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: accounts with like a million followers had breakdowns in their
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: live streams. And that's just live poddon, you know, things
• 13:12
  Speaker 5: like that happened.
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  Speaker 4: That's all right, Ele anytime. But back to Andrew.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, So Andrew, I want to ask you a question.
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  Speaker 5: So before Lancer, you went to the Archives.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, I actually traveled right from Washington, d C. Right
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  Speaker 6: to Dallas after spending three days at the National Archives
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  Speaker 6: and College Park.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: I almost went there last week. I drove back.
• 13:43
  Speaker 6: On the way to a concert apparently, Yes, yes, I almost.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, And we're going to get into the JFK Records
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  Speaker 5: Act in the ARB in a second, But you did
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  Speaker 5: find some really interesting I guess it's referred to us
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: the binder story. Well, maybe give a little background on
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  Speaker 5: like what like what you were looking for when you
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  Speaker 5: went to the archives, and and then we'll get into
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  Speaker 5: the back.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean really, this has been a continuation of
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  Speaker 6: the work that I started in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one,
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  Speaker 6: when I was researching and drafting a lawsuit that hadn't
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  Speaker 6: been filed yet, but it was a lawsuit against President
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  Speaker 6: Biden and the National Archivist. I'd done a tremendous amount
• 14:36
  Speaker 6: of research with Mark A. Damsik, a Florida attorney, on
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: the JFK Records Act, on things that are called ministerial duties,
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  Speaker 6: which maybe we'll touch on in a little bit, and
• 14:51
  Speaker 6: in terms of the records at being continuously withheld since
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  Speaker 6: nineteen sixty three and they were to be released in
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  Speaker 6: twenty seventeen as a JFK Records Act stated and Mark
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  Speaker 6: and I in our research we found a tremendous amount
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  Speaker 6: and on compliance with the JFK Records Act, especially on
• 15:15
  Speaker 6: the part of the Archives. There were tens of thousands
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  Speaker 6: of records that were not released, and I came upon
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  Speaker 6: this one particular file that basically said that the Assassination
• 15:35
  Speaker 6: Records Review Board had to create this document called ARRB
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  Speaker 6: Final Determination notification for every record, and that ended up
• 15:48
  Speaker 6: in my draft complaint against Biden and the National Archives.
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  Speaker 6: But I'd never really seen any of these final determination notifications.
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  Speaker 6: So when I went down to the Archives, that was
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  Speaker 6: the main purpose of my trip to the Archives was
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  Speaker 6: to find almost thirty thousand copies of these legal final
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: agency orders. That the whole point of these orders was
• 16:17
  Speaker 6: to govern the disposition of the actual assassination records. So
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: their little mini court like orders that control how the
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: archivist was supposed to either do periodic review of the
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: records after the ARB one out of business in nineteen
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  Speaker 6: ninety eight, or to actually release the records. And they
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  Speaker 6: were what I call the epicenter of the arrb's work.
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: The arrb's work between nineteen ninety four to nineteen ninety
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  Speaker 6: eight almost its sole goal was to create one of
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  Speaker 6: these final determination notifications for every record they reviewed, and
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  Speaker 6: they reviewed almost thirty thousand individual assassination records and made
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  Speaker 6: legal decisions legal enforceable binding orders with regard to each
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  Speaker 6: record that they reviewed. And what's bizarre is that most people,
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: most like decent, credible, experienced, longstanding researchers, have not seen
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  Speaker 6: many of these final determination notifications. It's a little bit
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  Speaker 6: shocking because again, this is what the ARBs spent four
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  Speaker 6: years and maybe I don't know, forty fifty sixty million
• 17:41
  Speaker 6: dollars of taxpayer money doing. And they did their job.
• 17:45
  Speaker 6: They did their job, and they created a record or
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: an order for every single one of these assassination records.
• 17:52
  Speaker 6: And so when I went down to College Park and
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: I went in, I told them why I was coming
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: in advance. I made advance requests for these particular records.
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: I was very specific with what I told them I
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: was coming down. I did what's called an advanced pole request.
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: They kind of ran me through the ringer and they
• 18:14
  Speaker 6: rejected my advanced pole requests like two or three times.
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: They made it extremely difficult. I had to fight with
• 18:20
  Speaker 6: them a little bit, but eventually they said, yep, when
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: you come, we'll have everything ready. And when I arrived,
• 18:31
  Speaker 6: I went down. I went down there with two other researchers,
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: Paul Blow, my co author from k City, and Jeff Crudell,
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: who's a podcaster from Florida who does JFK the Enduring
• 18:46
  Speaker 6: Secret sort of plug and so they were there with me,
• 18:54
  Speaker 6: and when we got there, they pulled out a cart
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  Speaker 6: full of boxes of records and I went through the
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: first twelve of sixteen boxes and there was nothing that
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: I was looking for. And when I hit the thirteenth box,
• 19:11
  Speaker 6: I pulled it out. I looked at it and lo
• 19:14
  Speaker 6: and behold there was a pretty thick stack of ARRB
• 19:19
  Speaker 6: final determinations. But each box only holds between five hundred
• 19:23
  Speaker 6: and one thousand records, and that was virtually There was
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: another half box of them, but that was it. And
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: in total I only got four hundred and fifty our
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: final determinations. So I got a very small sample of
• 19:40
  Speaker 6: the twenty seven thousand plus final determinations that should exist.
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: But you know what, Paul Blow and I spent quite
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: a few days and we created Yeah, there you go.
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: That's the gray box, ye, And that's the famous clip
• 19:57
  Speaker 6: that I got in trouble for removing. But you know
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: what it again, there should be twenty seven thousand of these.
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: I got four hundred and fifty and you can see
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: there here's a very strange part. When you go to
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: search for this. Up in the top right corner, you
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: can see the gray box with the red arrow. I
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: don't know how much he can zoom in on that.
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and I got this from I clipped this from
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: your episode with a friend of the showy okay, So
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: I want to give.
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: Him and we will get back to good stuff. Matt
• 20:38
  Speaker 6: will ask for the royalties on that photo.
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: He is a lawyer.
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: But you can see that box is titled press and
• 20:46
  Speaker 6: Public Contacts. And so if you go to search the
• 20:52
  Speaker 6: National Archives catalog or index and you try to find
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: final determination notifications, it comes up in a box press
• 21:00
  Speaker 6: some public contacts, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: that's not what is inside the box. And you'd figure,
• 21:10
  Speaker 6: since these are the most important legal documents that were
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: created by the ARRB, that they should be properly indexed
• 21:18
  Speaker 6: and cataloged. And so what I found, and this is
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: the important part here, yep, So what there should be
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: twenty seven thousand legal orders. These legal orders specifically dictate
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: how the National Archivists was supposed to handle the actual
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: assassination record. So they give the reasons why our record
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: was postponed detailed reasons. But more importantly, these final determination notifications,
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: they say exactly precisely to the month and year when
• 21:55
  Speaker 6: the Archivist was supposed to conduct periodic review or actually
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: fully released the record. Okay, and that's all in writing.
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: And of the four hundred and fifty of these records
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: that I found, hundreds of them showed that records should
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: have been released in January of two thousand and six,
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: but some of them were still being withheld as of
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: twenty twenty five. So I don't know what happened, but
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: it's clear that there was a massive breakdown in the
• 22:32
  Speaker 6: periodic review conducted by the National Archivist. And the fact
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: that you can't even find these records in the catalog
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: of the National Archives. They haven't been made public and
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: even researchers can't find them on request, something wrong is happening.
• 22:55
  Speaker 6: These should have been front and center to everything that
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: the Archives did over the last thirty years, and the
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: ARB was an independent agency and they had the legal
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: authority under the JFK Records Act to release records or
• 23:11
  Speaker 6: order records postponed, and they did their job. The ARB
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: did their job. This what I'm saying is no fault
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: of the Assassination Records Review Board. They did complete all
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: of these legal final determinations, it's what happened to them
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: once they hit the archives. And one of the other
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: things that's in the article that I wrote, the President
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: had the authority to override the ARRB when it came
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: to executive branch records. So executive branch records are any
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: of the executive agencies like the CIA, the FBI. The
• 23:52
  Speaker 6: President's in charge of the executive branch. Congress is in
• 23:56
  Speaker 6: charge of the legislative branch. And the ARRB was concerned
• 24:04
  Speaker 6: because Section nine D of the Act essentially says that
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: the agencies, if they disputed an RB order to release
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: a record, they had only like fourteen days to appeal
• 24:18
  Speaker 6: the ARB's decision to the President, and the President within
• 24:23
  Speaker 6: thirty days had to issue a certification either upholding the
• 24:28
  Speaker 6: ARBs order or certifying that that document would be postponed,
• 24:34
  Speaker 6: like kind of overriding the ARBs order. And the ARRB
• 24:40
  Speaker 6: was concerned because they were going to review tens of
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: thousands of these documents, and they knew the President of
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: the United States doesn't have time to deal with fifty appeals,
• 24:52
  Speaker 6: let alone a thousand appeals on the part of the agencies,
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: and so very wisely, Jeremy gunn of the ARB was
• 24:59
  Speaker 6: a legal counsel for the ARB. He drafted a memorandum
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: of understanding between the ARRB and the President. And what
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: the memorandum of understanding said the draft anyway, I could
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: only find a draft. Initially, it said if the President
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: is silent and does not, in writing certify an override
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: of the ARBs decision, then the ARBs decision became it
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: became legal, binding, enforceable law with regard to that record.
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: And you know, I talked to all right, I corresponded
• 25:38
  Speaker 6: with Judge Tunnheim, and he said, I'm pretty sure that
• 25:42
  Speaker 6: President Clinton signed back our memorandum of understanding, but I
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: don't have a copy. I couldn't find a copy in
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: the archives. I couldn't find a copy of Mary Ferrell
• 25:53
  Speaker 6: or black Vault. So I got in touch with the
• 25:57
  Speaker 6: Bill Clinton Presidential Library down in Arkansas, and you know what,
• 26:01
  Speaker 6: the day that this article went to print, I got
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: an email from the Clinton Presidential Library and they sent
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: me all of their internal memoranda and documents, and it
• 26:13
  Speaker 6: shows that sure enough, President Clinton did execute the memorandum
• 26:17
  Speaker 6: of understanding with the ARRB. So what that means is
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: the President agreed in writing that if he didn't in
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: writing override an ARB decision, that ARB decision with regard
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: to each record became binding, an enforceable law. That's a
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: big deal. So what we have or should have, are
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: twenty seven thousand legally binding orders with regard to all
• 26:48
  Speaker 6: of the JFK records that the ARB reviewed in the
• 26:51
  Speaker 6: nineteen nineties, and out of the sample that I got,
• 26:55
  Speaker 6: hundreds of them. Required the records to be released in
• 26:59
  Speaker 6: January of two thousand and six, and that was never done.
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: The records remained kept and withheld in secret.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: Let me ask you a question, Andrew So, and I
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: know you were you went to DC for the first
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: Task Force UH meeting, because I saw you and Matt
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: sitting in the background there a little bit there. Did
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: you did you have this information and enough time for
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: to be able for say Jim or or anybody else
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: there or Oliver to get it into their written whatever
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: they call them that they hand over to Congress.
• 27:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they're speaking notes and and they're they're written there
• 27:43
  Speaker 6: written testimony.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Was all this brought up to them at that point.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: Did you have the information then to bring it up
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: to them at the time, because it seems like a
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: pretty important point to point out, you know.
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so it won better. I was in directmmunication with
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: legal counsel for the Lunar Task Force and uh, and
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: yes they have this information, and I can say this, Robi,
• 28:12
  Speaker 6: You're absolutely right. Right, So when it comes to a
• 28:15
  Speaker 6: lot of the other evidence, you know, pick and choose
• 28:20
  Speaker 6: whatever evidence you want to talk about. You know, Joe
• 28:23
  Speaker 6: and Edies Angleton, you know, the magic bullet, Oswald, whatever
• 28:31
  Speaker 6: it is. You know, you've got all kinds of different
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: evidence that you've got to weigh and consider, and you
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: have people that are going to dispute that evidence. Right.
• 28:46
  Speaker 6: What I'm dealing with here are actual binding legal orders
• 28:54
  Speaker 6: that we know exist, we know are created, We know
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: that they were all transferred to the National Archives in
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: the nineteen nineties, and we know essentially what they say
• 29:09
  Speaker 6: or what they do legally and their legal importance. But
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: it's pretty clear from the information that we have and
• 29:21
  Speaker 6: the release schedule of some of the records that coincide
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: with that four hundred and fifty sample, that we know
• 29:29
  Speaker 6: as a matter of fact that those legal orders were
• 29:32
  Speaker 6: not complied with. So this is a different level of information,
• 29:36
  Speaker 6: and I think you're kind of drilling in on that.
• 29:39
  Speaker 6: It's pretty clear that there was some kind of I
• 29:43
  Speaker 6: don't know whether it's obstruction or suppression information or you know,
• 29:53
  Speaker 6: evidence or legal orders, and someone is responsible for that.
• 29:59
  Speaker 6: And so you know, when when I was drafting the lawsuit,
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: I looked at what I called low hanging fruit. Right,
• 30:09
  Speaker 6: this is the lowest of the low hanging fruit. If
• 30:13
  Speaker 6: anyone wanted to take a hold of this and go,
• 30:16
  Speaker 6: you know what, the call the acting archivestan for questions
• 30:21
  Speaker 6: under oath in front of the task force and go, hey,
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: we know that the ARB did this. And you know what,
• 30:27
  Speaker 6: Judge Tnheim and Jeremy Gunnet both in writing confirmed Yeah,
• 30:32
  Speaker 6: every decision we made was a final determination. Yes, we
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: issued final determinations for every single record in the collection
• 30:42
  Speaker 6: that we reviewed. Right, it's like a no brainer here.
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: And you know, I don't know whether it's in the
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: part one of the article that I wrote, but I
• 30:55
  Speaker 6: scraped hundreds of thousands of internal ar RB email in
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: my research to try to find like what they were
• 31:06
  Speaker 6: saying at the time in the nineteen nineties, while they're
• 31:09
  Speaker 6: going through all this, and I found an email from
• 31:14
  Speaker 6: this guy named Peter voth I think he was a
• 31:18
  Speaker 6: tech guy, but he was also an analyst for the ARRB.
• 31:22
  Speaker 6: And it's dated September twenty second, nineteen ninety eight. Okay,
• 31:29
  Speaker 6: that was six days before the ARRB wrapped up all
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: its operations and close shop for good. Right, so six
• 31:37
  Speaker 6: days before it was curtain's time for the ARRB. And
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: this guy Peter vot I'm not even exaggerating or embellishing this.
• 31:48
  Speaker 6: He wrote an email to all of the ARRB staff
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: and he's like, Hey, there are fourteen thousand CIA records
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: that we just realized we need to print final determination
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: notifications for and get them over to the National Archives.
• 32:10
  Speaker 6: We need to use the back printer. And he goes,
• 32:13
  Speaker 6: you know what, I'm not exaggerating this, Peter voss A
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: and is I'm not exaggerating because if I were to
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: pick a number, it wouldn't have been fourteen thousand. There
• 32:23
  Speaker 6: are literally fourteen thousand final determinations that needed to be
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: physically printed and attached to the assassination records before they
• 32:32
  Speaker 6: were transferred over to the National Archives. Right, so we
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: know as a matter of fact that these documents exist,
• 32:43
  Speaker 6: and that it was a priority for the Assassination Records
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: Review Board to print these out, to attach them, and
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: to transfer them to the National Archives, where the Archives
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: to the United States had a legal duty to clement
• 33:00
  Speaker 6: these these lawful orders issued by the Assassination Records Review
• 33:05
  Speaker 6: Board to either periodically review or release the records. So
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: you know what, when you asked the question, Rob, is
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: this in front of the committee? I believe it is.
• 33:18
  Speaker 6: I believe they understand the legal ramifications of it, and
• 33:22
  Speaker 6: I believe they understand that it that is, it is
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: a low hanging fruit.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because I mean that would be I think that
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: that would be a good next step for them, you know,
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: to bring in all these A R B guys. I
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: mean they're all still alive, They're all still in good
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: mental capacity, They're all still you know, doing interviews. I mean,
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: Robbie's had a ton of them on over there at
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: adela Blank, you know, for Tnheim and Tom Semelek, and
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: you know Doug Horn still well he's already you know,
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: been been before the committee. But yeah, that would be
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: a great idea. But look, before we go any further, Andrew,
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: I got I gotta ask you this question, MM, because
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: I'm a little smitten.
• 34:08
  Speaker 6: I'm waiting for it. I can't wait.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: All right, Rep Luna, did you have a chance to
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: actually like meet her, shake her hand, get close.
• 34:23
  Speaker 6: Or I did not directly get an introduction to her?
• 34:28
  Speaker 6: I think I was about eight feet away at one point.
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: That's as close as I got.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: Is she as gorgeous in person as she looks on
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: the on the computer screen.
• 34:38
  Speaker 6: You know what, I Am going to be politically correct here. Yeah,
• 34:44
  Speaker 6: I'm actually really impressed with the whole package that she's
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: delivered through these these Task Force hearings. I think she
• 34:54
  Speaker 6: is clearly the most well read member sitting in h
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: on the days there.
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: She's had a couple of flubs here and there with
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: her with her facts, but I mean, I can I
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: can imagine she's had to take in a lot of
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: information in a very short period of time.
• 35:12
  Speaker 6: I mean, how long have you guys been at this?
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: This is yeah, it takes years. We make a hand We.
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: Make flubs every show. And to Rob's point and to yours,
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: and I think everyone in the research community you can
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: agree with this. She really is trying her hardest to
• 35:30
  Speaker 5: understand an extremely complicated subject. I mean, how many members
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: of Congress know who George Joan D's is.
• 35:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah too, Yeah, I have a lot of respect for
• 35:43
  Speaker 6: her and uh and and I think she's conducted herself
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: very respectably in doing this. This is not a a
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: subject for the faint of heart. There are harsh critics
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: in in the research community. I think people have come
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: out and they've complained about the witnesses, and they've complained
• 36:06
  Speaker 6: about the questions that the congress members are asking. But guys,
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: when you look at the witnesses, you know, love him
• 36:16
  Speaker 6: or hate him? I I love the guy, but uh,
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: you know Oliver Stone, you know, Jeff Morley, Jim de Genio,
• 36:26
  Speaker 6: Doug Horn, Abraham Bolden, Judge Tnheim, Uh, the doctor Curtis guy.
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: You know, it could be a hell of a lot
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: worse than that. We could have had Gerald Posner. You know,
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: we could have had any number of people.
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: Well, we had a Lexus co Andrew, we have a
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: Lexus Coe.
• 36:54
  Speaker 6: You know what, The damage done could have been a
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: lot worse. You know, Look again, whether you love them
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: or hate them, they could have brought in Larry Sabado's
• 37:05
  Speaker 6: like the the establishments, Darling on the Kennedy case. You know,
• 37:12
  Speaker 6: there's a few people she and n but we didn't
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: get those guys.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: That American politics works, you know, it's whoever's you know,
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: leading the committee, the other side is always gonna poo
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: poo them in any way possible. Whether it's a Republican
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: Led or Democrat leb, it's all the same thing. But
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: I did notice a little discrepancy from the first hearing
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: to the second hearing as far as participants, audience probably
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: chitter chatter on the internet about it is interest waning
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: in this? I mean, do you think because you know,
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: I follow I follow a Repluna on on Twitter and everything,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: and she's got her fingers in a lot of pies,
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: and I'm just worried that, you know, it's going to be,
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: you know, forgotten very quickly. It's one of my one
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: of my concerns.
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, let's let's say this, Okay. Doug Horn's testimony in
• 38:14
  Speaker 6: the second hearing on May twentieth. The Forbes YouTube channel
• 38:21
  Speaker 6: video of Doug's opening statement has one point one million
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: views on YouTube. Yeah, okay, it is blown virtually everything
• 38:32
  Speaker 6: else out of the water in recent memory. On Forbes
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: YouTube channel, which usually gets you know, between seven thousand
• 38:40
  Speaker 6: and thirty thousand views per video Doug's Doug Horn's videos
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: one point one million views. That's insane. And the really
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: horrible part of this is the second hearing wasn't broadcast
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: on c SPAN. Only Forbes on YouTube carried it, which
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: is okay, fine, the hearing lacked the star power of
• 39:05
  Speaker 6: Oliver Stone being there, but I mean, for a video
• 39:10
  Speaker 6: of Doug Horn, and mind you, Doug's testimony I think
• 39:15
  Speaker 6: was probably the most important when he talked about Bethesda,
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: and I mean, it's the first time Americans en mass
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: have really heard that a majority of the Bethesda witnesses
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: saw the same thing that the doctors in Dallas did.
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: And you know, for sixty years, America, an American, the
• 39:38
  Speaker 6: American public has had this story that you know, the neurosurgeon,
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: the chair of neurosurgery from Southwestern Medical School, didn't know
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: where the occipit was, didn't know what Sarah Bellum looked like,
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: and the military autopsy doctors were more correct than experience
• 40:00
  Speaker 6: and strama doctors in Dallas. When the truth is, they
• 40:04
  Speaker 6: saw the same thing, they reported, the same thing, they
• 40:07
  Speaker 6: testified about the same thing. But the Bethesda witnesses testimony
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: and evidence got suppressed. It got suppressed in the Warrant Commission,
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: and then it got suppressed again during the HSCA, and
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: the ARRB loosened that evidence up in the nineteen nineties,
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: and that I personally think is probably the most important
• 40:29
  Speaker 6: evidence to come out in the last sixty years that
• 40:33
  Speaker 6: the Bethesda autopsy witnesses saw a blowout in the back
• 40:36
  Speaker 6: of President. Kennedy said, And.
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: This is more of a personal question for you, Andrew,
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: because I always wonder, you know, and I know you're
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: a lawyer by trade, saying lawyers tend to think differently
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: than your average people. You know, there's a lot of
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: very smart lawyers that have been researching into this case
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: for a very long time, a big long list of
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: prestige names. In fact, it I've done some outstanding work,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: you know, going back to Vensilandria, you know, to the
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: present day. What I wonder, or what I'm wondering, is
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: what was your initial interest in the case. Was it
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: the legal ease, was it this whole document thing, or
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: was it a different part of the case that that
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: drew you in and piqued your interest and got you
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: interested in everything else? That was going on.
• 41:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so probably like all of us, you know, I
• 41:36
  Speaker 6: saw Stone's JFK in nineteen ninety one, nineteen ninety two,
• 41:42
  Speaker 6: and that just blew me away. I was fascinated. I'd
• 41:46
  Speaker 6: read one or two books before that came out, but
• 41:49
  Speaker 6: when that film came out, I was like, this is fascinating.
• 41:54
  Speaker 6: But it kind of passed, and then I went to
• 41:58
  Speaker 6: law school in the early two thousands, and it kind
• 42:06
  Speaker 6: of came back closer to twenty seventeen. My real interest
• 42:09
  Speaker 6: in it, and it was through the law. I knew
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: the JFK Records Act existed. I'd printed a copy of
• 42:17
  Speaker 6: the JFK Records Act, and so when twenty seventeen, the
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: deadline to release all the records started to close in,
• 42:23
  Speaker 6: I dusted off copy of my JFK Records Act. I
• 42:27
  Speaker 6: started to read it. And then when unfortunately President Trump
• 42:32
  Speaker 6: blew pass that October twenty sixth, twenty seventeen deadline to
• 42:37
  Speaker 6: release all the records, I going, Okay, we got a
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: problem here, and so I really I dug seriously into
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: the law and I came up with a bit of
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: a legal strategy. It's still my own to bring a
• 42:55
  Speaker 6: claim for mandamus, which is an old type of legal
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: writ to challenge an administrative action on the part of
• 43:08
  Speaker 6: the president or any other official who's not doing their
• 43:11
  Speaker 6: job according to the rule of law. And I saw
• 43:17
  Speaker 6: that there were a few lawyers that were also looking
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: at this, and so I, you know what, I offered
• 43:25
  Speaker 6: to help out, and that kind of made me focus
• 43:30
  Speaker 6: just on the law. I'm fascinated in the case in general,
• 43:34
  Speaker 6: but I tend to stick to my lane, which is
• 43:38
  Speaker 6: the legal aspects the JFK Records Act and how the
• 43:44
  Speaker 6: records themselves were handled the archives.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: Now, when you bring a lawsuit like this against a
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: sitting president, does it go away when they ceased being
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: the president or does it continue behind the scenes?
• 44:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, So, I mean you you sue the individual and
• 44:04
  Speaker 6: their official capacity as the archivist or the president, so
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: that if there's a change in that official position trans
• 44:17
  Speaker 6: the next one. Yeah, you may have to amend your pleading,
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: depending on exactly how you you've pleaded it. Now, I
• 44:26
  Speaker 6: know the the hit archives for for Nara was I
• 44:30
  Speaker 6: guess summarily dismissed by Trump earlier this year. How long
• 44:34
  Speaker 6: had this guy been in charge there? I mean, or
• 44:37
  Speaker 6: how many archives have we hit archives. Have we been
• 44:40
  Speaker 6: through since the ARB Yeah, there's been quite a few.
• 44:44
  Speaker 6: I think there've been about four or five archivists since
• 44:48
  Speaker 6: the ar RB. And you know, I have a feeling
• 44:53
  Speaker 6: that President Trump had had a number of issues with
• 44:58
  Speaker 6: the just previous archivist because of the whole mar A
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: Lago bathroom record files situation. So you know, usually the
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: archivist is one of the more quieter agency head positions
• 45:19
  Speaker 6: in the government. You know, people don't It's like it
• 45:22
  Speaker 6: used to be Chief Librarian of the United States, and
• 45:26
  Speaker 6: I was like, none of these guys did what they
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: were supposed to do. Yeah, that's the sense that I'm getting.
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: You know. I talked to Joe earlier in the week
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: about a CIA record that I found while I'm going
• 45:42
  Speaker 6: through my research for this, and this was like an
• 45:44
  Speaker 6: absolutely fascinating record. It was dated February nineteen ninety two,
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: and the date of that is incredibly important because and
• 45:55
  Speaker 6: I don't know whether I sent you a copy of
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: this record, Joe, I'll send it you.
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: Bring it up.
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: I'm trying to bring it up as you know what
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: it's It's.
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: So fascinating because the February ninety two is before the
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: JFK Records Act was passed, okay, And this CIA memo
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: is basically a strategy on how the agency wanted to
• 46:22
  Speaker 6: circumvent what was coming down the pipe as the JFK
• 46:26
  Speaker 6: Records Act. Right. So again, this is eight months before
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: the JFK Records Act was passed and lo and behold.
• 46:34
  Speaker 6: In October of ninety two, when the Act was actually passed,
• 46:39
  Speaker 6: they inserted this section five D three of the Act,
• 46:44
  Speaker 6: and basically five D three says, any records that an
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: agency transfers to the National Archives before the Records Act
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: is passed don't need a RIFF number or an identification aid.
• 47:02
  Speaker 6: And what that means is all of those records don't
• 47:05
  Speaker 6: necessarily need to be reviewed by the arch or by
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: the Assassination Records Review Board, and it gives the archivist
• 47:14
  Speaker 6: discretion on whether to give these records a RIFF number
• 47:19
  Speaker 6: and an identition Yeah, that's part of it. Part Yeah,
• 47:24
  Speaker 6: that's like part paragraph ten. And that's the recommendation that
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: they made. Hey, my CIA masters, you should transfer your
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: entire HSCA assassination collection for the Kennedy records over to
• 47:41
  Speaker 6: NARA before the Act is passed. Right, And so sixty
• 47:46
  Speaker 6: four boxes of assassination records were transferred over to the
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: National Archives by the CIA, And there's no way of
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: knowing for sure how many of those sixty or boxes
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: of records actually made their way into the collection, how
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: many are cataloged, how many are not catalog what they
• 48:07
  Speaker 6: may still all be there, But if you don't know
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: exactly what's there, you don't know what to search for,
• 48:14
  Speaker 6: and so they may have fallen through the cracks.
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: Was one of the boxes you found at the Archives
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: before Lancer in November, one of those sixty four boxes.
• 48:23
  Speaker 6: No, No, No, The boxes that I specifically looked for
• 48:29
  Speaker 6: were ARRB boxes, not CIA or HSCA boxes. The boxes
• 48:37
  Speaker 6: that I was really focused on were records that were
• 48:41
  Speaker 6: created and produced by the ARRB.
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: Okay, So, just to put the timeline into perspective for
• 48:48
  Speaker 5: the audience, the JFK Records Act was enacted in nineteen
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: ninety two.
• 48:54
  Speaker 6: Right October Ninetyober.
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: Ninety two, kind of endush of ninety two. ARB didn't
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: start until April nineteen ninety four, that's correct, Yeah, Okay,
• 49:06
  Speaker 5: So again there's a big gap of time a year
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: and a half at least. Doing the quick math, and
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: and there these final determination notices are kind of like
• 49:20
  Speaker 5: an annual recap or now they're either like or final
• 49:26
  Speaker 5: agency order.
• 49:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they're they're like a cord order, and there are
• 49:31
  Speaker 6: like between one page long, and some of them are
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: sixteen seventeen pages because they deal with like almost three
• 49:38
  Speaker 6: hundred postponements like in the Lopez Report. I did come
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: across the final determination for the Lopez Report and it
• 49:47
  Speaker 6: was like sixteen or seventeen pages long because there were
• 49:50
  Speaker 6: hundreds of postponements in the Lopez Report, and the final
• 49:55
  Speaker 6: determination had to deal with each postponement separately. So if
• 49:59
  Speaker 6: one word was redacted, that required a separate decision per
• 50:04
  Speaker 6: reaction throughout the entire.
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: Document, and a separate document as well, right to corresponding
• 50:12
  Speaker 5: with the order.
• 50:13
  Speaker 6: Got it?
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: And so so I guess there were four what's the
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: word annual reports ninety five, six, seven, and eight. What's
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: the term for that?
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, you know what. I appreciate you you reading
• 50:28
  Speaker 6: the article because there's a lot of complex stuff in there.
• 50:31
  Speaker 6: So Section nine F of the JFK Records Act required
• 50:35
  Speaker 6: the ARB to issue an annual report every year during
• 50:40
  Speaker 6: its operations. So again, like you said, the ARB operated
• 50:44
  Speaker 6: and from ninety four to ninety eight, so there should be.
• 50:47
  Speaker 5: A summary, a summary, right of everything from the year
• 50:51
  Speaker 5: that or the calendar year.
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: I guess.
• 50:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they had to report on all of their activities,
• 50:57
  Speaker 6: but also they had to include it was required by
• 51:01
  Speaker 6: law that they include an appendix in each report that
• 51:05
  Speaker 6: contained all of the final determinations with the corresponding documents, right,
• 51:11
  Speaker 6: not with the assassination records. No, that the appendix only
• 51:15
  Speaker 6: had to contain the final determination forms.
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: I see.
• 51:18
  Speaker 6: Okay, So what I found is the are issued their
• 51:22
  Speaker 6: reports in ninety five and ninety six, but they did
• 51:26
  Speaker 6: not issue reports in ninety seven and ninety eight. There
• 51:29
  Speaker 6: are no annual reports for ninety seven and ninety eight,
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: even though they had to issue a report in ninety
• 51:36
  Speaker 6: seven and ninety eight, And some.
• 51:38
  Speaker 5: Would argue maybe the most important ones because they were
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: kind of rushing to get all these out before they
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: were decommissioned.
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: Correct, exactly. Yeah, they issued the massive majority of all
• 51:52
  Speaker 6: of their final determinations in ninety seven and ninety eight.
• 51:56
  Speaker 5: So what I found translation for the audience, most important
• 52:01
  Speaker 5: final determinations are missing.
• 52:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah, from the because there are no annual reports for
• 52:07
  Speaker 6: those years. But even worse, they did issue an annual
• 52:11
  Speaker 6: report in ninety six, but they omitted the entire appendix
• 52:16
  Speaker 6: containing all of the final determinations. So the only annual
• 52:20
  Speaker 6: report that has final determinations and it is from nineteen
• 52:23
  Speaker 6: ninety five. And they only started issuing final determinations in
• 52:29
  Speaker 6: June of nineteen ninety five, so they before June of
• 52:32
  Speaker 6: ninety five they never issued a final determination. So really
• 52:37
  Speaker 6: we have half a year of final determinations from ninety five.
• 52:41
  Speaker 6: The rest of them, though, should be at the National
• 52:43
  Speaker 6: Archives because the National Archives had a duty to collect
• 52:48
  Speaker 6: all of these things. Well here here in lies the rube. Okay,
• 52:52
  Speaker 6: so all these final determinations are they not considered part
• 52:58
  Speaker 6: of the JFK Records Act. No, they are absolutely part
• 53:03
  Speaker 6: of the JFK Records Collection. Section seven three basically said
• 53:09
  Speaker 6: when the ARB winds up its operations, it has to
• 53:13
  Speaker 6: transfer all of its documents over to the National Archives
• 53:17
  Speaker 6: to be included in the records collection, and no ARB
• 53:21
  Speaker 6: record can be destroyed.
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: Yet we haven't got any of them released yet.
• 53:27
  Speaker 6: Four hundred and fifty through a reluctant process with.
• 53:31
  Speaker 5: The OAR out of fourteen thousand, No.
• 53:34
  Speaker 6: Twenty seven, thou.
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: Out of twenty seven thousand, okay, And and what you
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: were saying before is that they circumvented a bunch of
• 53:44
  Speaker 5: this by sending it to the archives before the ARB
• 53:49
  Speaker 5: was commissioned or their deadline. Which is why I wanted
• 53:53
  Speaker 5: to point out the timeline, because there was a year
• 53:55
  Speaker 5: and a half where they kind of had to plan.
• 53:59
  Speaker 5: You know, they could send these if they actually sent them,
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: these documents to the archives and circumvent the ARB.
• 54:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, because those records may or may not be in
• 54:11
  Speaker 6: in the collection, we don't know. And the other thing
• 54:16
  Speaker 6: is without having a riff number, there's no way to
• 54:19
  Speaker 6: track these records, right, so they just go into a
• 54:22
  Speaker 6: black hole and and the c I A you know,
• 54:26
  Speaker 6: slow roll the a ar r B. I think Judge
• 54:29
  Speaker 6: Tonheim has made that very apparent. Sorry say again, I.
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: Said that that's their their technic. They know that they're
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: going to outlast whatever. They knew they were going to
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: outlast the hs c A investigation and knew they were
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: going to outlast the aar B. You know, just stall
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: as much as you can and you know they'll be
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: gone in a little while, will still be around type
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: of thing. That's what they do.
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they're pretty effective at it.
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's their playbook one A. That's their go to
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: play and it's you know, just delay and delay and
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: delay type of thing, you know.
• 55:06
  Speaker 6: I mean the fact is that Rob you really did
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: hit this on the head, Like, this is the clearest
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: path to show actual suppression of records. I think that's
• 55:20
  Speaker 6: available now. Is it going to show exactly who killed
• 55:24
  Speaker 6: President Kennedy?
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: Now?
• 55:27
  Speaker 6: But it's like, why are they hiding legal orders that
• 55:33
  Speaker 6: require the release of the records? Why are they hiding that?
• 55:37
  Speaker 6: You know? These should have been some of the no,
• 55:41
  Speaker 6: you know what, this should have been the first set
• 55:44
  Speaker 6: of records that were digitized and made public so that
• 55:49
  Speaker 6: the American public could kind of track things along, go, hey,
• 55:53
  Speaker 6: you forgot to release this record in January of two
• 55:56
  Speaker 6: thousand and six. Why don't you? And the other part
• 56:00
  Speaker 6: of it is both Judge Tanheim and Jeremy Gunn and
• 56:05
  Speaker 6: the actual law itself say throughout all of their work
• 56:11
  Speaker 6: that the JFK Records Act was supposed to be a
• 56:16
  Speaker 6: law that required accountability, transparency, and most importantly, enforceability. Okay,
• 56:27
  Speaker 6: these final determinations are the pointy sphere of enforceability, because
• 56:34
  Speaker 6: you have an actual court order or a legal order.
• 56:39
  Speaker 6: It's not a court order, but it's a final agency
• 56:42
  Speaker 6: order that disposes of a record on a certain date.
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: That's the kind of thing that you can bring in
• 56:50
  Speaker 6: front of a court to enforce. It's the only thing
• 56:52
  Speaker 6: that you can bring in front of a court to enforce.
• 56:56
  Speaker 6: And you know what, the Court of Appeal in the
• 56:58
  Speaker 6: Ninth Circuit reviewed the lawsuit that was eventually filed. It
• 57:03
  Speaker 6: wasn't the lawsuit that I drafted, but the Court of
• 57:07
  Speaker 6: Appeal looked at this issue and the Court of Appeal
• 57:10
  Speaker 6: literally said that the plaintiffs didn't cite or reference any
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: final order issued by the now defunct arrb Okay. So
• 57:24
  Speaker 6: even the Court of Appeal recognize the importance of the
• 57:27
  Speaker 6: final determinations. And because that's the way the law works.
• 57:34
  Speaker 6: If you've got a final agency order that the government's
• 57:37
  Speaker 6: not complying with, you take it to court and you
• 57:40
  Speaker 6: either review it through judicial review under the Administrative Procedures Act,
• 57:45
  Speaker 6: or you bring a man damous claim for it. And
• 57:50
  Speaker 6: without these final orders, it's kind of hard to do that.
• 57:53
  Speaker 6: You can't enforce it. There's no accountability without these orders
• 57:57
  Speaker 6: being made public, and you don't.
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: Know if you've got the documents that they're referring to
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: yet or not, which brings me back to you know,
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: when all this was going down back in the early nineties,
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: mid nineties. You know, this is like pre Internet of
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: course technically, I mean it was very infancy stages, you
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: know back then that you know, I remember, you know,
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: where you sit there on dial up and wait like
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: five minutes for a picture to materialize line by line
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: by line.
• 58:29
  Speaker 6: But ye, sadly I remember that, Chet, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 58:36
  Speaker 6: even I do, Rob.
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: But you know, when you're talking about the sheer amount
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: of documents from the Warrant Commission, from the HSCA to
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: all those reviewed by the ARB, to hear some of
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: the numbers about Okay, what's been released, what is what
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: has been digitized and available online? Because you know, I think,
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: you know, if time goes on, Andrew, you know, back
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: in the day, you had people like Harold Wiseberg who
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: was doing foyer requests, you know, and a lot of
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: these researchers were actively staying on the archives and doing
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: these foyer requests for documents, okay, and they were getting
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: a lot of them, you know, but they weren't getting everything.
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: But they were getting a lot. And you know, as
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: time goes on, you know, time's change, people get busier,
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: they don't have enough time. They don't have you know,
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: you know, the right wherewithal to go about the process
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: of doing all of that, you know, and the time
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: or the money, yeah, the time, the money, you know.
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's very rare. We have somebody like
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: like Blunt, who could you know, come over here and
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: reunt a house close by for a couple of months
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: and just go in there and scan everything and can
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: get his hands on and then just ship it back,
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: you know, and just never go through it. I mean,
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: it's just just it doesn't have time, you know. And
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: that's the great thing about bart And and uh we'll
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: get back to that in a minute, because you're gonna
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: be speaking at the at the conference this month over
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: there in lovely England, Warwickshire. But I was always flabbergasted
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: by the amount of documents that are not available online.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: And I you know, people are like, oh, you know,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: they're they're salivating over these newly released documents. You know,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: it's the smoking gun in there. No, probably not, but
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: could it be. And you know some of the other
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: eighty thousand documents that aren't digitized and aren't available online,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: and they're just sitting on a shelf in the archives
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: somewhere waiting for somebody to stumble across them.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 5: Miss misfiled, yeah, under pressing whatever, you know.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's so wild, like when when Paul and
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 6: Jeff saw the label on the box, they were like,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 6: this is unbelievable. But you know what, I questioned the
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 6: senior JFK archivist about this, and hey, this is what
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 6: I'm looking for. Where are the other twenty seven thousand
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 6: of these? And you know, why are they in a
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 6: box label press and public contacts when clearly these are
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: final orders of the Assassination.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 5: Records Review Board And it's like what they say.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: He admitted that it was beyond confusing.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: Because there should be a lot of boxes labeled JFK
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: Final determinations. If you're looking for twenty seven thousand of them.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 6: There should be I calculate that there should be maybe
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 6: sixty boxes of these, But you know, I don't know
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 6: whether I don't know whether you saw the part of
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 6: the article that you know, hang on, I said, I'm
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 6: just going to take a quick clock. There are so
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 6: many interesting shots of this, but the the part that
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, guys, Oh you are right, yeah, let me
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 6: find it. You you you chat amongst yourselves.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, people were wondering what kind of pictures I was
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: downloading back down on my on my modem. Well, you know,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: she wasn't around yet, but you know there were other
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: other lovelies about who else is in the chat?
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 6: Joe?
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: We got any more questions from our lovely audience here?
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Uh?
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 5: Not that I saw, I saw, I saw turn in here?
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 5: What's up buddy? Uh? David Swinson a couple other.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: People did get a super chat from Trey.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 5: Thank you for a lot for sure. Yes, and Rob,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 5: I have a I have a little clip from Luna's
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: second hearing after Andrew finishes this, and I want to
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: get his thoughts on what files she.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 6: Go for your clip?
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: Go go, go for your clip is probably okay, so audience.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: Sure, no, no, so Luna and we covered this on
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: the members only show we do on one days. But
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: Luna on the second hearing made some very interesting remarks
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: in regards to I think she said five files that
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 5: she requested and the one they denied was the Joinese file.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: But she said allegedly they she talked to Ratcliffe or whatever,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 5: and the other four files were coming. But I just
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 5: don't know exactly what she's talking about. And if you
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: don't know, that's okay.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 6: But I'm hoping you.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: Could shed some light on this and possibly provide some context.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: So I'm going to start it now. It's like a
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 5: minute or two, and you know, Rob and I never
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 5: miss a chance to put the beautiful Goddess Luna on
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 5: the screen.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 8: Yes, Federal Secrets is not here to provide the definitive
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 8: account of what happened on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. Instead,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 8: the task Force is meant to root out the hidden
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 8: pockets of federal government that has for too long remained
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 8: in the shadows of our reach, out of our reach
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 8: for even good.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 9: Faith investigators to reach.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 8: I also want to thank President Trump for committing to
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 8: the principles of transparency and hold doctor Martin Luther King
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 8: Junior is a step forward in the right direction. The
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 8: job of the task Force is to ensure that the
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 8: federal agencies follow that order, because in the past, a
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 8: president's order for transparency has not always been heeded by
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 8: the most secretive portions of our government. The objective of
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 8: this task force is not to indulge in conspiracy theories,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 8: but to push forward the release of information so these
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 8: theories can be put to bed and so the American
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 8: people can finally have truth. It is the federal agencies
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 8: at lack transparency for six years that have led to
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 8: the people's distrust.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 9: In their government, and it's time to restore that.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 8: I would also like to provide for those who have
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 8: been closely following this, to include researchers, an update on
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 8: several documents that are outstanding. To date, the Joe Nedes
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 8: files has not been located. A whistleblow report from the
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 8: CIA alleging the CIA's implication has also not been located.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 9: Lee Harvey Oswald's travel records have.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 8: Not been located, and the DS two zero one file,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 8: who was a plausible suspect for the Delainey Plaza shooter,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 8: and then as well as the MCANTA documents concerning CIA
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 8: penetration of the Fair Play for Cuba committee.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 9: Last week for an.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 8: Update, I did speak to the CIA directly, not in
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 8: a skift, so I can talk about it publicly, and
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 8: they did notify me that four of these five documents
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 8: would be publicly released in the coming weeks, but there
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 8: was one that was outstanding, and I do believe that
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 8: that one outstanding document is the Joe Neidese file.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 5: All Right, So she mentioned five documents for should be
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 5: released in the coming weeks. That was three weeks ago.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: And delaaney Plaza bless her heart.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 5: Yes, I mean, hey, I read stuff all the time
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 5: quickly and bounce everything, so I cannot hate. But do
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 5: you have any idea Andrew exactly what she was talking about?
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 5: What for documents? If that rings any bell?
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 6: If you know what I know. Jeff Morley put out
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 6: a list of records that that he thought that the
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 6: task Force should really focus on releasing. Clearly, Jeff is
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 6: fixated on the Joe and Edes file. Yes, it's likely
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 6: an important part of the whole JFK story. Frankly, I'm
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 6: worried that that if there's too much of a fixation
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 6: on just George Joan Edies, it's going to lead to
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 6: a limited hang out. I think we're always in danger
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 6: of there being a limited hangout and then we'll call
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 6: it a rap.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 5: It's all over.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 6: We now know, you know the whole story, but it's
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 6: really just a small part of the story. I don't
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 6: think anyone saying George, Joe and Edes orchestrated the assassination
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 6: of President Kennedy.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 5: He might have had operations involving Oswalt and the DRE.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 6: He was a propaganda guy, so probably he had something
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 6: to do with that area of the assassination. The DRE
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 6: clearly was putting out propaganda, you know, in the days
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 6: after the assassination. They were part of a potential propaganda
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 6: operation in New Orleans. But that wasn't the primary assassination
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 6: team that pulled triggers on President Kennedy. It was a peripheral,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 6: maybe even a compartmentalized operation to run a disinformation campaign.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 6: And so to focus just on Joe and Edes or
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 6: just on Angleton's handling of the Oswald file is problematic
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 6: in my view. It's narrow.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: It's narrow, kind of, it's very narrow.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, And I do have a sense that there's
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 6: been a bit of all a bit there's been gatekeeping
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 6: that's been happening, and I think more people are becoming
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 6: aware of that, and and I think that there should
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 6: be ways to handle that. So the committee knows that
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 6: there's more to the story than just James, Jesus Angleton
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 6: and George, Joe and Edes.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: And the problem with the Joe and Edes files is
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: they're not considered JFK. They're not part of the JFK record.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they were deemed mistakingly, they were deemed not believe
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 6: relevant to the assassination story by the ar r B.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 6: The ar r B is amit admitted. Judge tonheim Is
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 6: publicly admitted that they were misled by the CIA regarding
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 6: the Joe and Edese files. He said that they should
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 6: be included and released as assassination records. He's on the
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 6: public records stating this. You know, when when I was
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 6: at Archives, one of the things that was I was
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 6: interested in, aside from the final determinations, there are audio
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 6: records of all of the ARB hearings, and I would
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 6: certainly yeah, yeah, I would love to be able to
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 6: track down the audio for the hearing that dealt with
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 6: the Joe and Edese files where they were deemed not
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 6: believe relevant, because that was probably on the basis of
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 6: of reper sentations made by ci A people that that
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 6: might not have been forthcoming about the true nature of
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 6: Joe and Edie's work.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 5: M H. Yeah, and uh, you know, I'm not like
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 5: discount of join e'es. I think his you know, involvement
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 5: with h c A and what Blakey told everyone is
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 5: extremely concerning and telling of of why you would what's
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 5: the intention in doing that?
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 6: But uh yeah, I don't think anyone's arguing that that
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 6: guy was up to no good.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, I don't know.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 6: I don't know anyone.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 4: Running the hit team. But you know, there is things
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: that of course the CIA and and FBI as well
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: wanted to cover their ass with when all this ship
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: hit the fan, uh you know, back then, and they
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: definitely didn't want out there, you know, it be the
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: Castro plots, or they're involvement with the mafia, or you know,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 4: their their propaganda involvement with these anti Castro Cubans, you know,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: kind of working both sides of the fence type of thing,
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 4: and their methods and and operations and and and all
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: of that. What they were doing in Mexico City with
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 4: the wire intercepts and all. You know, I can see
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: why they would want to cover these things up of course,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: and not not you know, let let out what they
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: were doing. Doesn't necessarily mean that it was something super nefarious,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: you know, like Carlos spring A behind the Grassy Knoll,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean, uh, or anything like that.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: But you know, I mean, we know that the CIA
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: was fund in these anti Castro student organizations, feeding them propaganda,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 4: letting them know what to do. And then on the
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: other hand, you got the FBI monitoring in these organizations
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 4: and watching what they're doing. And you know, it's like,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: what's going on here, you know, and then you see
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: Oswald popping up and one and you know, me and
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: Joe been talking kicking around this idea here lately on
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 4: the show of the idea of the Khan or the
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: grift right, because a lot of these anti Castro Cuban
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 4: organizations with these guys were doing, whether it be in Florida,
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 4: whether it be in New Orleans, whether it be in California.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 4: You know, it was all about collecting money, you know,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: and want to promise that something would be done. Right,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: how our government is not going to do something, but hey,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: just donate to our calls. We're we're training people, We're
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 4: gonna send them in there. We're gonna kill Castro. You know,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 4: We're gonna be these heroes and saviors I mean, these
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: guys would go parading down the streets in New Orleans
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: holding the big flag out and have people throwing money
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 4: in it. And then I'm thinking, somewhere along the way,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 4: maybe Oswald got this idea that this creating a Fair
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 4: Play for Cuba committee was a good idea, and maybe
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: it wasn't. It probably wasn't. It definitely wasn't a good idea,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: at least in New Orleans. The support just wasn't, you know.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 4: But as the yeah, you know, but he's seen what
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: all these anti Castro groups are doing as far as
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: you know, kicking the can out, you know, holding the
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: flag open, uh, you know, and and raising money on
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: these false promises. And you know, these guys, what if
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: you do that, well, then you don't have to have
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 4: a job. You can just go around and pretend like
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 4: you're you're in this cause. And you see it with
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: you know, even guys like Lawrence Hall Lawn, Lawrence Howard,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 4: Thomas Beckham, David Ferry, Uh, you know, Guy Banister. All
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 4: these people and and in and around New Orleans are
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: all nine to fivers.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 5: Were they they had some type of going on.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was some kind of grift or a long
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 4: con or a short con. You know what Jerry Hemming
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: is doing in Florida, you know, you know, building this
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: camp and to train people to you know, infiltrate Cuba
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: and kill Castro. Yet they never seem to get off
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 4: the beach.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, how many of them were actually serious about it?
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 5: And I think there's a spectrum of people that were
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 5: doing it just for money, people that were actually doing it,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 5: that were going on the boat raids, people in between,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 5: and and that's what makes it really hard to kind
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 5: of decipher, if that makes sense. We've been exploring it.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 6: They we're still working it out.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 5: Uh yeah, I don't know if you have any thoughts
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 5: on that. And then I have a question about the
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 5: twenty four hundred FBI files Andrew.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you know what, there's so such a cast of characters,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 6: and there's so many different ways to look at h
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 6: how they fit into a number of different scenarios and
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 6: pictures that I don't know. I I like, like I
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 6: said earlier, I have my kind of pet theories and
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 6: and I tend to stick to you know, my It's
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 6: an easy out for me, and I want I focus
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 6: on the law, and but I am fascinated and in
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 6: all of these other these these other ideas, because it
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 6: certainly makes you think how things really work. The other
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 6: documents are insane, you know, because anybody can get on
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 6: here and say anything about anything, you know. But it's
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 6: one thing when you have the documents in front of
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 6: you and you can see and kind of go through
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 6: and be like, all right, well, this is what this is.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 6: This is what they said under oath, this is what
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 6: the FBI so they said, this is what you know,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 6: the Dallas police said that. They said, this is what
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 6: we know they were doing. And you know, I call
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 6: it informed speculation. Yeah, And you know what, like I
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 6: I appreciate you throwing up an actual image of an
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 6: urb final determination, you know what, I recommend any of
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 6: your your your audience go and check out JFK chocolds
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 6: dot com. There's a document section and you can actually
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 6: see a final determination and when you look at the
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 6: order to release, it actually just says release date and
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 6: it gives a specific date. You know, when you talk
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 6: about it's great to have a record to back up something,
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 6: you know, having a legal order that requires the archive
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 6: is to release a document on a very specific date.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 6: You see, I think on that one, there's there's two postponements.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 5: Joe, right, Yeah, this is uh. I'll kind of zoom
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 5: in on this as a because I think you use
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 5: this in your article as an example.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a sample one. I think that shows both
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 6: a release date and a review date, so you can
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 6: see the the R issued several different kinds of orders
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 6: with regard to the disposition of the record. Some of
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 6: them they ordered the agencies and the archive is to
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 6: re review a document, and then other reactions were required
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 6: simply to be released, and a lot of them were
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 6: were orders to release and uh, and and that's what
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 6: we're dealing with. It makes it it's just so obvious
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 6: that these orders weren't complied with, and really there needs
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 6: to be answers for that.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 5: There does because it was you know past you know,
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 5: was it almost an unanimous the GfK Records Act. Was
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 5: it completely Yeah?
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 6: The entire Congress vote, there wasn't one of Denton or
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 6: Nay in the vote to pass it. Here's a completely
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 6: bipartisan support to pass the JFK Records Act.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's it's unbelievable when you really dig into
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 5: what you're talking about. In this article. It makes me
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 5: so frustrated, so mad at the level of obstruction that
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 5: is going on here. It's it's worse than I even knew.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 5: And I think you had a really good quote. Let
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 5: me see, I wrote it down here when you talked
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 5: about Trump's executive order. And I want to give Matt
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 5: Crumpton a shout out on your episode, you bonus episode
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 5: you had with him on the Documents, which was right
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 5: before our bonus episode with him, you had a great quote, Uh,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 5: it's a plan to have a new plan. Yeah, because
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 5: has already done this.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you know what like that? That's the fact, Joe,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 6: that when and look, I think no one ever told
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 6: either Biden or Trump that, hey, there was an independent
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 6: agency that already created the most detailed plan that you
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 6: could ever imagine, right, you have no idea. No one
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 6: ever told them that this was already done. And so
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 6: you get these two guys, President Biden and President Trump.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 6: They can't read everything, they can't know everything, especially you know,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 6: and so they got to rely on their advisors and
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 6: they were given bad advice. And it's pretty obvious. So
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 6: when President Trump came out with his plan to create
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 6: a new plan or plan to plan a new plan.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 6: It was just ridiculous to me because someone should have said, hey,
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 6: why don't you dust off all of these twenty seven
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 6: thousand orders and just put those into play, right, why
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 6: don't you comply with these orders that already exist.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that would have been, of course the optimal.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 5: But I think we know he's not getting that advice.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 5: I'm not sure he even knows what the ARB is really,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 5: and not to his fault, really, you know.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 6: But yeah, it's so, you know, during the course of
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 6: my research, like a few things came out, like there
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 6: was I don't know if you guys remember, but there
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 6: was a CIA employee named Ruben Ephron, Right, he was
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 6: the guy who was reading Oswald's mail when he was
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 6: in Russia. So Oswald would send his mom a letter,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 6: they would intercept it, they'd read it. His mom would
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 6: send him a letter back, they'd intercept it and read it. Right.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 6: So Ruben E. Fhron died in nineteen ninety three. That
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 6: was a year after the Act was passed. Okay, just
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 6: before we are, yeah, just right before they started to
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 6: review the records. Well, they only released the Ruben Fhron files,
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 6: and I think twenty twenty three. Okay, the guy died
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 6: thirty years before they released his files.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 5: If you know they're not protecting they're not protecting his
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 5: Social Security number you mean.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah, or his identity. They don't need to protect his identity.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 6: He's dead, right, And so if we had the final
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 6: determination notification for those files for ruben Fhron, they would
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 6: have been implemented and when the ARB was still functioning,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 6: and the archivist would have reviewed it and said, this
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 6: guy's dead, we're releasing the record because that's what the
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 6: ARB ordered, right. But no, we got to wait another
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 6: thirty years until twenty twenty three in order to find
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 6: out that ruben Fron was was the CIA agent, and
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 6: they withheld that information unlawfully for another thirty years beyond
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 6: what they were legally allowed to. So you think of
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 6: any record rob that you have analyzed, and just know
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 6: there's a final determination sitting in a gray box at
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 6: the Archives that maybe said that that record that you
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 6: just got in twenty twenty five should have been released
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 6: back in two thousand and one, right, think about that.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's one in particular I like to see, that's
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 4: for sure.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 6: Will you give me the riff number. I might have it,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 6: and if I do, I'll send you a copy of
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 6: the final determination.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 4: Will do for sure.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so all right, I want to ask you a
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 5: question about because I was listening earlier today with your
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 5: macrupton episode like I mentioned, and you I guess. This
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 5: was right after the announcement came that there was twenty
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 5: four hundred FBI files newly found, so exciting. All the
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 5: mainstream media from Fox to MSNBC had headlines on this, right.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: The last Morley tweeted a picture from the archives.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 5: Yes, well he had special lot, he had special access
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 5: for it.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 4: Yes, yes.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 5: But fast forward a couple months and Mary Ferrell has
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 5: a bunch of new Carlos Marcello documents out there, like
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 5: a new folder like heading type of thing. And I
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 5: was really confused. So I actually tweeted at Jeff Morley
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 5: and Rob talked about this on Quick Hits. I asked, Jeff,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 5: are these the twenty four hundred JFK FBI files that
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 5: made headlines when they were found a few months ago?
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 5: And Luna mentioned they were in the process of being digitized.
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 5: I understand that they are. We got an advanced look
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 5: at these. Of course, you have to put that in there,
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 5: mostly which turned out to be duplicates, but we did
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 5: find a good story about Oswalt CIA handling of Oswalt.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 5: So is this like another limited hangout of like, oh
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 5: all the because I remember in the episode I just
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 5: listened to with Matt Crumpton on Solving JFK with you,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 5: you were kind of like excited about these You were like,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 5: maybe they were because I guess the first part of
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 5: Trump's executive order please correct me if I'm wrong, mister
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 5: Eiler dealt with doing a renewed search of your archives, right,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 5: and the second part was make a new plan for release.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 5: And I think after that the FBI said, oh, we
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 5: found all these files and I haven't looked through all
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 5: of them, but they don't seem relevant. Seemed like a
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 5: big sy op. You're bolso on that.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you know what, It wasn't surprising. The FBI was
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 6: extremely difficult with the ARB, like the CIA. They knew
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 6: that they were going to be around long after the
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 6: ARB was gone. I may be wrong in this, but
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 6: what I heard after that initial announcement regarding those twenty
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 6: four hundred FBI files was that the FBI was aware
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 6: that those files existed while the ARB was still in existence,
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 6: and they held them back, and then the ARB finished
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 6: its time and no one pursued those records, and the
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 6: FBI just sat on those records until they were released
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 6: in twenty twenty March of twenty twenty five. So they
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 6: knew they existed in the nineteen nineties, and they had
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 6: a duty under the Act if they found files after
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 6: the ARB one out of business, they had to transfer
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 6: them over to the National Archives. And clearly, if that's
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 6: the case, they didn't do it. And is there anything
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 6: in those FBI files. I haven't looked at them.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the little I have looked have been like late
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 5: sixties Marcelo stuff like, not really relevant. I haven't looked
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 5: through all of them, just to be clear.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 6: But obviously, yeah, if they had a duty to ship
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 6: those files over and they didn't do it, that's a
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 6: problem in and of itself, regardless of what the content is, right,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 6: But it.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 5: Would be par for the course, just like you talked
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 5: about with what the CI did to circumvent the ARB
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 5: in terms of giving the files before it was the deadline. Right,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 5: It's it's kind of just they're all using the same playbook.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 5: I mean this shouldn't be surprising to any listener of
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 5: the show.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 6: If there's no authority out there to enforce the laws,
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 6: then you know what, the agencies can do whatever the.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 5: Hell they want, and they know that the laying and
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 5: government changes, public appetite and interest wanes. It's I think
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 5: it's playbook play one a just.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 6: The way, yep. But you know what, that's why you
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 6: guys are here. You guys are a files based show.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 6: You always pull out fascinating files and dig into them.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 6: And you know what, I think at least your audience
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 6: is aware that that that stuff isn't boring. It has
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 6: constant meaning to uh to the American public, and it's
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 6: up to us to keep to keep the pressure on
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 6: to release this. Absolutely.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 4: And I got one more question for you before we
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 4: wrap things up here, Andrew and and it's it's because
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 4: you're a lawyer and you have this perspective on things.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 4: What is your opinion about what what Jim Garrison's investigation
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 4: was doing back in the sixties. Is this something that you,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 4: as a lawyer would have taken on, would have pursued. Uh,
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 4: I'm just I'm just curious as to your thoughts as
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 4: a lawyer. About another lawyer doing what he did. And
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 4: I respect what he did and we got a lot
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 4: of good stuff out of the deal. But I don't
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 4: necessarily agree with his methods and maybe his motives, but
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 4: I believe overall it's a it was a win win
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 4: for researchers. But I was just curious, it's to your
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 4: opinion on Garrison himself and what he was doing back then,
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 4: and whether or not it was something that that you
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 4: would do.
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you know what I mean, that's a great question.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 6: I've never thought about that in in that way before
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 6: I've read his book, I saw the movie. You know,
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 6: I've looked at quite a bit of the evidence that
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 6: that came out during that hearing. You know, I I
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 6: understand the criticisms of of Jim Garrison, but I also
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 6: look at at what he was up against and the
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 6: way the forces were aligned against him. And you know,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 6: like I have this saying, in so many areas of politics,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 6: you know, sadly there's no heroes, right, And I think
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 6: in the case of Jim Garrison, the stuff that he
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 6: did get out farrow outweighs the negative aspects that the
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 6: criticis that the critics can hurl at.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 4: At him.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 6: I mean, you know what he's fascinating in that In
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 6: that CIA memo that I mentioned from February of ninety two,
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 6: in that exact memo, that's the first memo to actually
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 6: acknowledge that clay saw Shaw was a highly paid CIA asset.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 6: In that In that same memo where their strategy sinking
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 6: on how to circumvent the A R r B, the
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 6: c I A acknowledges. I think it's in paragraph seven
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 6: of that that Jim that clay Shaw was in fact
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 6: a c I A asset. And you know how much
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 6: of that trial was based on his complete denial of
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 6: any relationship with the c I A whatsoever. It's pretty
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 6: clear that he purchured himself. So you know, I don't
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 6: think clay Shaw was an innocent victim. You know, did
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 6: did did d A? Garrison? Yeah, stretch the bounds of
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 6: of his authority to bring a case. People are being
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 6: making that argument for decades. But in the end, you know,
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 6: we we saw the zapproot or film. I didn't I
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 6: wasn't alive when the trial happened, and we got a
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 6: ton of other tests stimony out in the public that
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 6: we never would have had. And you know what, Jim
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 6: Garrison lost that trial and and clay Shaw walked away
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 6: obviously a damaged character. But I don't know. I think
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 6: there are pros and cons to to that case. But
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 6: in the end, I think we're all beneficiaries as a
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 6: research community because of it. Absolutely got a fair answer. Yeah,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 6: too much of a lawyerly lawyer answer.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 5: No, And you almost made me think like would it
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 5: even have been better for clay Shops to be like, yeah,
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 5: I'm an international, wealthy businessman. Of course I was a
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 5: contract agent in some areas. You know.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 6: I love the fact. What was it yesterday? They just
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 6: you know, the CIA came out with Robert Kennedy file
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 6: that shows he was a contract asset of the CIA
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 6: when he went to Russia back in the sixties. They
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 6: just released that, yes, in the fifty four files. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 6: talk about you know, a monstrous disclosure.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 5: Oh man, that is very interesting.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of wealthy businessmen, a lot of
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 4: international US based companies that did a lot of international traveling,
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 4: were a part of this thing. You know, they were
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 4: probably paid for information, you know, if you got you know,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 4: these big these big wigs you know from you know,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 4: like Hilton hotels.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 6: International right all over the world.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and who knows if they're bugging these
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 4: certain rooms and getting you know, being allowed to collect
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 4: information or being given information about who's traveling where, with whom, when,
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 4: why they're there type of thing, you know. I mean,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 4: I'm sure this stuff happens all the time, more than
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 4: we even know, you know. And the whole scope of this,
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, I can't even imagine.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 6: I mean, you know, when you.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 4: Think about the National Archives, you know, I always think, well,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 4: it's just the house JFK related documents, right, But no,
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 4: there is so much minutia, horseshit and politiicy crap in
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 4: there that's for the past god knows how long. I mean,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 4: it's got to.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 6: Be the most boring job in the world. And then
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 6: you have all these crazy JFK people coming in anskling
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 6: you for records like they're you know, on a mission
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 6: from God.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 4: It's you know, I would like the records from the
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 4: nineteen fifty seven Future Farmers of America conference held in Oklahoma.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 4: Nobody cares.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the exact attitude. Everyone is on a mission
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 6: there and they must drive the archive is crazy.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, And I wonder to go back to
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 5: what you were talking about, your story when you went
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 5: into the archives, how much of the archives is compartmentalized?
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 5: How much does the head archivist know? How much does
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 5: the head JFK Research Sure know?
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 4: How does the.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 5: Normal skafuza which is our word for kind of fool
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 5: to put it nicely, uh, you know, stopping you from
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 5: open binder, opening a binder clip when you get a box.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 5: You can't think that they all are in on it.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 5: They just they just don't know.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, now, and and and you're right. I mean when
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 6: I went there, they were all I mean, they were
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 6: very strict, and they have to be strict. You're dealing
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 6: with historal call documents and you don't want anyone going
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 6: in there and trashing things or ripping stuff up. You know,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 6: I appreciate the job they do. But the subtitle of
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 6: the second part of my article, I think really asks
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 6: an important question. You know, is this serial negligence or
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 6: are these the mechanics of suppression? And it's a really
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 6: hard question to answer, right because at some point in time,
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 6: just plain old, run of the mill negligence when it
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 6: happens repeatedly, all in the same direction, it becomes hard
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 6: to explain. And with these final determination notifications, you know,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 6: whether it's the silence about these from you know, the
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 6: senior people at the ARRB, whether the fact that you
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 6: can't find them anywhere and they can't be enforced because
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 6: they're nowhere in sight? Is that serial negligence or is
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 6: this how the mechanics of suppression actually work? And we've
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 6: just happened to stumble upon like probably the clearest example
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 6: of suppression of records that you can imagine in this case. Guys,
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 6: I know you want to wrap up. If I can
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 6: just follow Bart Camps please outro on the Daly Plastic UK,
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 6: which is happening on June twenty seventh and twenty eighth
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 6: in Warwickshire, England. There's going to be a great, a
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 6: great set of speakers there and I feel.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 4: I told you man, you think Robinhood is going to
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 4: pop out of the woods around here somewhere there is people.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it looks really beautiful in that area and I've
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 6: been fortunate to ask to be a speaker there and
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 6: Neil Saffady, who's the secretary for Daly Plaza UK, I'm
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 6: super impressed both with the venue and the program. It's
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 6: going to be a really interesting conference. And I'm speaking
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 6: on Saturday, June twenty eighth at noon. Hi noon, And
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 6: you have to follow Bart, which is not an easy task.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 6: Well my right behind Burt. Yeah, I've never met Bart
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 6: in person, so I'm I'm I'm actually looking forward to
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 6: meeting a bunch of the guys there. They're they're a
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 6: pretty fun but serious group of historians and researchers.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 4: Just be careful'll step on his toes. He just had
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 4: one loved off oh to me. Yes for Bart, And.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 5: I think, Andrew, are you going to have like a
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 5: little time slot with Malcolm Blunt to discuss documents? Is
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 5: that where Bart said on Quick Hits? Maybe?
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I understand Malcolm is going to be there, and
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 6: I've never met Malcolm. I've never spoken to him on
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 6: the phone. So I think Bart is going to set up,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 6: hopefully a little meeting and I'm bringing a ton of
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 6: the documents with me that that.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 4: That I've put together to Bart and tell him to
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 4: digitize him and put them up on Daily Plans the UK.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 6: Bart's scanner must be uh, you know, blowing smoke at
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 6: this point, right, and so much scanning.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 4: That's why he's losing tones. He's too much walking back
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 4: and forth, back and forth.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 6: But no, that's great.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's that's awesome.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't wait for that. I'm really excited to
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 5: listen on the rewatch on that for sure.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 4: And also the French version of Chokeholds just came out,
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 4: didn't it.
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 6: Well, Robie, you know sent you mentioned it. Paul blow
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 6: And and a colleague of his, a lawyer from Montreal, Canada,
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 6: Mark Bernard. They've spent the last year translating Chokeholds into
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 6: French and uh and Paul and Mark launched that about
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 6: a week and a half two weeks ago in Quebec
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 6: and it it just popped up on Amazon France and
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 6: holy man, that book is like cranking in in the
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 6: French language. It was like the number one book in
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 6: multiple categories and it it topped out like in really
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 6: high ranking in France this week. It's just been wild
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 6: the reception. And I got to say the English version
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 6: for for a small publication, it has it's performed with
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 6: with a lot of the big books in the JFK
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 6: library on on Amazon. It's it's doing, it's continuing to
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 6: do extremely well, yeah, we congratulations on your success with that.
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 5: That's great, Rob. I have three super quick questions. Three,
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 5: I know, what are your thoughts because we covered with
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 5: members only of the Judicial Watch lawsuit against against is
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 5: it because I know what specifically relates to the ARB? Right?
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you know what. I've been tracking that on on
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 6: a daily basis, so when anything happens, I'll usually post
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 6: on it on on our X account at JFK choke Holds.
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 6: You know, the Judicial Watch lawsuits a really simple lawsuit.
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 6: It's only four pages long. They've just simply asked for
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 6: the immediate release of all assassination records, review board memos, files,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 6: whatever records that were produced by the ARRB. And you know,
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 6: like I said before, there's a section of the Act
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 6: that says, once the ARB goes out of operations, they
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 6: have to transfer every scrap of paper over to the
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 6: National Archives so it can be included in the collection.
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 6: And in my view, it's a no brainer and also
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 6: will include all the final determinations, which I would be
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 6: very happy to see as well. But there you know,
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 6: there are thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands of ARB records
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 6: already digitized on the National Archives website, and it's a
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 6: huge fascinating resource to go through those ARB records because
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 6: you can see you can see in detail how the
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 6: ARB handled so many of the most controversial files that
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 6: that that form part of the collection. So I do
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 6: hope that it's a successful case. It's they've made very
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 6: simple and straightforward demands.
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 5: But like you, they have experience suing the government for
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 5: lack of a better.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 6: Term, right, yeah, I mean I wish I wish them luck. Sadly,
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 6: the Department of Justice just recently they made an argument
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 6: that a let me just say this in full English here,
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 6: the Department of Justice made an argument that Assassination Record
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 6: review Board records are not assassination records under the Act.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 6: So you know, they're saying we don't have to release
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 6: them because there RB records are not assassination records. What
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 6: are you going to do?
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 5: And so you found four hundred and I just want
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 5: to get the number straight. You found four hundred and
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 5: fifty final agency orders out of about thirty thousand or
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 5: am I yes doing this wrong?
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 6: Nope, that's correct, okay. And I put them all on
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 6: a database and cross referenced them with the actual assassination records,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 6: so we could see on one hand, what did the
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 6: ARB order to happen to those assassination records, and then
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 6: the latest version of the assassination record itself. You can
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 6: pull both documents up and cross reference them on the
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 6: database that we have.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 5: Wow, and my quick math that is one point five percent.
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 6: It's not enough. We should have all of them.
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, a little discouraging, but like Andrew, we couldn't do
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 5: what we do going through documents if there aren't people
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 5: that are doing what you're doing. And it might not
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 5: be the sexiest conversation in JFK assassination community, but I
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 5: think what you're doing is absolutely amazing and I just
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 5: can't thank you enough for your effort.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 6: Serious, it's a pleasure talking to you guys. And you
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 6: know what, hopefully I'll shoot you an email if if
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 6: I stumble upon those other twenty six five hundred records,
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 6: and I'll be sharing that news and I will be
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 6: hopefully hitting the press with part two of the of
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 6: the article and the next in the next few days,
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 6: So keep your eyes out for that all forward that
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 6: we've got both.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 4: We got links below this episode over to your Kennedy's
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 4: and King page where they can. I'll check that out
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 4: as well as a link to the JFK Assassination Chokeholds
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 4: book on Amazon if you haven't yet read it, I
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 4: highly suggested yes.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 5: And if anyone, if anyone had two of co authors
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 5: of Rob's Favorite Researcher on their big Old card for
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 5: TLG in the first part of twenty five, congratulations.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 6: And you know what it Just in case if you
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 6: guys want to follow any of this, we have regular
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 6: daily updates on our Twitter act account.
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, can you give those before.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 6: It's at JFK choke Holds If you want to link
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 6: to that. I'm more pretty active on Twitter, so follow you, yes, sir, all.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 4: Right, Andrew well Man, we appreciate you coming on and
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 4: sharing all this with us. It's truly been our pleasure
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 4: to have you on and wish you the most success
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 4: in the future endeavors in this vain as well. And
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 4: uh we'll have to get you back on uh here
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 4: in a little while, you know, check back in with
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 4: you in a couple of months and see how it's going,
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 4: see what's see what's happening, and you can take it
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 4: to school again.
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 6: So we appreciate it, beauty. Thanks guys.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 4: All right, now we have a little uh, we have
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 4: a little outro here of our buddy Dean Andrews dancing
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 4: in New Orleans and Joe needs to get his damn dog.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 4: You got her right here. She can't she can't hear
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 4: me call her anymore because Joe has the innier monitors now.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 4: But I used to whistle for and call her. She
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 4: come running because it's time Andrews the dances up out
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 4: of here and then hang out with us after the show.
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 6: So here we go.
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 4: There's Ruby, Say Hi, Ruby.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 5: Not named after Jack Ruby.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 6: Lies lies, sir.
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 4: All Right, folks, that's for this one again. Thank you
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 4: to our guest Andrew Eiler to find all his links
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 4: below to the book and to his essays.
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 10: Seeking out on social media as well. For jfk Assassins
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 10: Holds and we'll be back with you next Wednesday for
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 10: the numbers only show of Justice.
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 4: I believe our keeps like the love the episode.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 6: Loved you, Andrew.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 4: Pretty great job. We appreciate it, love it.
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 5: Paula even said, enjoyed your presentation at Lancer twenty four.
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 5: Only Joe and Doug along with this guy had groundbreaking stuff.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 4: Well we'll try thank you. That's our people. Yeah, until
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 4: next Wednesday, folks, thank you.