Latest / The Daily Writer / Author & Literary Agent Mary DeMuth on Traditional Publishing & the Writer's Journey

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Author & Literary Agent Mary DeMuth on Traditional Publishing & the Writer's Journey · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: When you walk into a bookstore and see the thousands of books lining the shelves, not to mention the millions of books available online, it probably feels like there's an infinite number of big names and movers and shakers behind all of these books that are published.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Once you get into this world though, especially if you get into traditional publishing circles, you'll discover that there's a much smaller group of people who have incredible connections, they have vast experience, and they have tons of respect that they have earned from others.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: And many of these people are literary agents.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited to bring you this conversation with one such mover and shaker today, and her name is Mary Demuth.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mary is a literary agent with books and such literary management.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: In addition, she's an international speaker, podcaster, and a novelist and nonfiction author of over 40 books, including We Two, How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Mary loves to help people restory their lives.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: She lives in Texas with her husband of almost 30 years and is the mom to three adult children.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: You can find out more at marydemuth.com, at Mary Demuth on Instagram and Twitter, or you can be prayed for on her daily prayer podcast, Pray Everyday.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: You can also see Mary's artwork by going to MaryDemuth.com/slash art.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: And if you'd like to find out more about her work as a literary agent, go to her site, MaryDemuthLiterary.com.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And of course there will be links to all those in the show notes, and I encourage you to check all that out.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: In this conversation, Mary and I talked about her work as a literary agent, her views on the practice of ghostwriting, her daily podcast, traditional versus indie publishing, and much more.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: She's not only wise and smart, she's also a very gifted agent as well as an incredibly successful author.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you're going to love this conversation with the amazing Mary Demuth.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Mary, it's great to have you on the show.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: As I mentioned before I hit record, um, you're one of those people that's that I've kind of known about for a long time and everybody seems to know you, but I've never actually talked to you before, literally like 60 seconds ago when we got on the Zoom call.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for making time to do this.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So excited and really glad to be here.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this is totally my wheelhouse.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I love to talk about all the things.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I know we have 25,000 things to talk about.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's all good.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's all good.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh the kind of the the impetus for really this this chat, this conversation came from my good friend Chris Morris, who I know you represent.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: And he had mentioned, um, God's just been probably probably about a year ago, that you were his agent.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know she did that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I guess this is kind of a new thing.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So can you talk a bit about how you how you transitioned into becoming a literary agent and what you do?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I have been traditionally published since 2004.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um as I just in the past couple of years, I have just felt this need to solidify what I've already been doing all these years.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the moment I was published, I was teaching people how to be published.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was just part of my natural DNA to shepherd people, mentor writers.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've been doing it this whole time, almost 20 years.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, wouldn't it be fun to, as someone who is within the publishing industry and knows a lot of ins and outs, to really shepherd a group of writers toward traditional publishing and you know, to create a writer's community, which is really my heart.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a it makes Mary Demuth Literary stand out a little bit because it's really about relationships.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: My we we meet together every year in a retreat, and um Chris is one of those.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: He came, he was a good sport, and uh now all of these people know each other and they're helping promote each other's books.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so it has been really a joyful thing to be a part of, just to have that idea that, oh, this is what I want to do, and then to see it realized has been really fulfilling.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can imagine.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this this kind of leads me to well, and actually a number of questions, but one question that I hear people ask all the time when they want to get into traditional publishing is how do I find a good literary agent to represent me?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I know you get this question all the time, probably on a daily basis, but are there any specific things that someone could do to really grab the attention of a literary agent like you and then get them to also say yes?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say a couple things.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: One is to go to a writer's conference because um I am looking for people that I mesh with, that I have a good rapport with.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's hard to gauge on um on an email.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if I see an email that comes through that I'm interested in, then I will schedule a Zoom call because I can't say yes without seeing and talking to somebody.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, it's a foot in the door if you can get to um an agent through a face-to-face meeting at a at a um you know, at a whatever it's called, I just lost it.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um conference.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Conference or gathering workshop or something.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, gathering workshop.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that is really helpful.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing I would say is don't display your naivete.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you have it, then learn the industry and understand what an agent is up against.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I know authors are, I'm an author too, so I'm up against the same thing.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: But publishers are very risk averse.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so anything that you can do to make it look like you can move copies of books is going to be really helpful to me.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I got an email today saying, you say you want 50,000 followers, but what if I'm not there yet?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that is just a basic number.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it could be higher, it could be lower, but I need to see that people are building email assists, and I represent mostly nonfiction.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why this is part of this, what I'm talking about in terms of platform.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I want to see some presence somewhere, and I want to see that they know the industry and they understand um what's expected of them.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that though that's why Chris Morris is my client.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's a dream client.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: He is so smart, he turns things around really quickly and he knows the industry.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: He has done his homework.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And he's a really, really gifted writer.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that helps too.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And fast.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: He's very fast.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I have to ask, I have to follow this up with a question that a lot of people are wondering these days about traditional versus indie publishing.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'll leave hybrid out of the mix for now because that's kind of its own animal anyway.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: But if a if an author is going to be doing their own marketing anyway, primarily, and you can go through all the channels to hire out the cover design, editors, formatting, all that stuff, what role do traditional publishers still have in the mix of particularly an author in maybe the first their first few books?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: If they can do all this anyway, is there still a need for publishers?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: There is, because there is a a high bar that publishers set in terms of editorial.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have a traditional publisher on your spine, the media tends to uh book you on podcasts more often.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and also the thing I love about it as a as a published author is I like getting paid.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the thing, the bonus for the author is you get an advance and um you get paid right away before it all happens.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to do the outlay of cover design and editorial and all of those kind of things.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that being said, I've done both.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not like anti-indie publishing at all.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it is a great way to go.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and I'll use Chris as an example.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if his head's exploding now, but um so he self-published two books before he came to me.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And in one of those particular books, he moved 10,000 copies.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when I pitched him to have, I said yes, um, because that's actually hard data.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um how many Instagram followers you have is not hard data.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't even say anything about whether you'll sell books, but actual sales is hard data.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: I even had a publisher email me recently and saying, can you please tell me how he did that?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted to know if it was like free copies or whatever, but you know, these were actual physical and e-copies that he sold.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so there's there's a lot of ways to get into traditional publishing.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is one.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I would say, like, especially if you're writing fiction and you're writing in a series, going indie is seems to me to be a no-brainer because you have all of that opportunity to hook a reader to go to the next book, to go to the next book, to go to the next book, and do all sorts of things with that first book.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that makes a lot of sense to me.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's different for nonfiction because unless I'm writing a series of nonfiction books, which I typically am not doing, it's hard to grab your audience from one book to another.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: See, I I love this because I feel like you're you might be the most the most honest and forthright literary agent, you know, because most of the time an agent, because of the nature of what they do and how they make their income, is going to be heavily skewed toward traditional publishing.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I love the fact that because you're a very successful author yourself, you know, there are some things that are better for indie and some things that are better for traditional.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I did so the book behind me, the Faith of Elvis book that I wrote with Elvis Presley's brother that came out with Thomas Nelson a few months ago.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: That book was perfect that would not have worked as an indie book.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: It really needed to be with a big traditional publisher who had all the media stuff behind it and uh all the other elements that a traditional publisher can can give.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a blast working with their team also.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they were so good and it was so cool to like work with a team of people and everything.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: So so I love the fact that you're basically saying, hey, it depends on the project, but there are some things that traditional publishers are really, really good at that can be a massive benefit.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I've even I've self-published before I actually crowdfunded a book because it was back in like 08 before me too.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote a book about healing from sexual abuse.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And my agent took it and shopped it everywhere, and it did not sell.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And every publishing house said there's no market for this.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you guys are not correct.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh crowdfunded that book and it is still in print and it's doing great.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I definitely don't want to come across as saying traditional publishing is the only way because sometimes there's this niche project that you just have a passion about and you know, you just want to get it out there, and everyone's saying no, all the doors are closed, you still have this third way or the second way, and that to me is so exciting.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Now, something else that you do that is that is really unique among authors, but also literary agents, is you have a daily podcast.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you have a podcast, but you have a daily podcast.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a daily podcast too.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we do an interview once a week on this show, but then the rest of it is little short episodes that I do, very similar to your format.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: And like, you know, those those of us who do daily shows are, I think, um crazy.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: There may be some insanity that is in play there or some I don't know what.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm curious what role has your podcast played in your success as a writer, uh, as a connector, and as a literary agent?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it has been such a huge surprise and blessing.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it was actually created based on one of my traditionally published books.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote a devotional called Jesus Every Day, and it's the opposite of Jesus calling.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of use uh Jesus saying stuff to you, you're responding to scripture and prayer by saying stuff back to Jesus.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so the that's the whole point of that book.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I was working with my mastermind group, I said, what do I do to promote this book?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they actually came up with this idea of the Pray Everyday podcast, where I would read a bit of scripture and then pray according to that scripture for my audience.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's five years old now.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: We've just passed 4.2 million downloads.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's doing very well, but it also I use it to cross promote my books.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I am known like in some circles only for that, which is so interesting to me because I have these other sides of me that seem more dominant.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's just it's nice for me as an author to say, here's my platform.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I also have these four million downloads.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: It just really looks good.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, if you can, if you can get them, and I think that's the joy of a daily podcast, is that you can rack up those downloads a little bit more because every single day of the week you're yeah, gathering people.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: What did you do when you launched your podcast?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And really since that time, are there any specific things that you've done to promote your show that's helped it to really grow so large?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: I really didn't do anything.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I did an initial push when I first started it, and I have a Patreon page to help support it.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I really it just did its thing, and that was beautiful to me because I'm also very tired.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the thought of promoting another thing just makes me double tired.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this is just kind of taken off by itself.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is not the case for a lot of things in my life.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this has been really fun.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do you with with your podcast production, do you do that literally every day or do you batch it once a week, or how do you do that?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly do batch it once a month.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll record it three separate three separate days, 10 episodes a day.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that is incredible.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just people can't, you know, see me on this, but I'm like doing the thing.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm bowing down.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I do I batch mine once a week.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: So doing doing it over three days, I'm just like really tired of it.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very exhausting.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: It is because you know, when you do a podcast, you have to really emotionally be tiled, be dialed in because people can tell if you're not, and you just have to really be there.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the fact that you're doing a month over three days, that's incredible.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to be actually absolutely exhausted when you're done with that.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: I try to explain that to my husband and just say, hey, today was a podcast day, and it only takes about an hour or so to record those, but it's so much energy.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can feel it just leave my body because I'm praying for people.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So of course I'm exuding, you know, energy.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's hard.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: But as a listener, when I listen, like it's so obvious your your heart is just right there, and you're really dialed in, and you can just you can just feel the emotion and the and the spiritual energy coming through the speakers, really.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that's incredible.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh congrats.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I am I'm I'm praying through the whole time.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it helps me to just kind of be in that space while I create that particular podcast.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:50
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• 16:21
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• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things I wanted to ask about as well is um I was looking through some of your recent blog posts on your literary agency site.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And um, first of all, thank you for putting actual blog posts up on there.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually kind of rare, I think, for agents to do that kind of a thing.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: But they're really, really good and informative.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that that you um let me go back to this recently, the post was called Um, because you're in the Christian space, Six Controversial Christian Publishing Practices.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which I've I've never actually seen a post like this, and I think it's it's really great.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I wanted to ask your thoughts as a Christian literary agent on the practice of ghostwriting.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Now, ghostwriting is my main thing.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing this for a while, and my books have included Christian, very Christian books, but also some business books.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Some of them I'm credited on, some of them I'm not.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just kind of curious from your perspective, what are your thoughts on ghostwriting and how people in the Christian space can do it in a way that you would consider ethical?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a terrific question.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm certainly not against ghostwriting.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I have a ghostwriter on my team, um, which is really great.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, it's more about the writer who is ghosting and their feelings about whether they would like to be acknowledged or not.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have seen experiences where there's a ghost relationship and the author really would love some sort of credit and then just doesn't get it.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, there's something not good about that to me.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there I've I've ghosted a book as well, and I actually didn't want my book on my name on the cover because it wasn't in my brand.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I was like, you can put me in the acknowledgments.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm not saying there's like some hard, fast rule of you have to do this, you have to do that, but I have seen in the case of some plagiarism that's gone on, um, some of that plagiarism has happened because a big name has hired an intern to write the book, and the intern just goes and grabs things and puts them in a book.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would I kind of feel like if you're if you're busy and you're gonna hire someone to write your book, you really should vet them.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And second of all, you probably should read the book prior to it releasing.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: You would think that that would happen.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: But honestly, it doesn't always happen.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the whole issue of endorsements, and this was also really that's a whole nother ball of wax, isn't it?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and so my policy personally is I have to read a book before I endorse it.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so we had a recent phenomenon where we had um the author of a controversial book, Equating Sex and Jesus.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was a and it it just was very controversial.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And all these endorsers ended up coming up saying, I'm so sorry I endorsed this book.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because the the typical practice is you're my friend, I'll endorse your book.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: But that I personally for me, I cannot put my name on something because my integrity is so important to me unless I know what is in that book.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there have been times where I say I can't endorse that book.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I may not tell that to the author, I'll just say I'm too busy because I don't want to hurt people's feelings or anything.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: But there's just times where I can't, but I have to read it in order to be able to offer a true endorsement.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it feels like lying to me.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a tough thing because people are really, really busy and it's hard to get somebody to read a whole book before they give an endorsement.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: But that is really the only true way to ensure that you can put your name on something if you actually know what's inside the book.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that doesn't that kind of stand a reason, you know, but um, sometimes with with stuff that goes on in the publishing world, sometimes reason goes out the window a little bit in our in our rush to get stuff out there and and get things done and so forth.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think, you know, we're I think the church is getting really tired of celebrity culture anyway.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think endorsements have the power that they used to have.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think if you're hanging your hat on, well, I'm just gonna get this really big endorser, it doesn't mean as much as it used to.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's actually better to have someone well known write a foreword to your book.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot more.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: I had a book uh come out called We Two, How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis, super long title, but JD Greer did the foreword for that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that was very helpful.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: That just helped the book get out into the hands of more people.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, love that.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: With the discussion of ghostwriting, it is kind of it is kind of interesting, like the different roles that people can have.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: One of the one of the things you mentioned in your blog post was, and I thought this was so helpful, you had a small section there about the differences between a uh, I think it was a co-author, a collaborator, and a ghostwriter, because each of those things really are now there can be a lot of blending and bleeding over between things, but but those are three really distinct things.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious if you can speak to the differences between those two things, just for people who maybe haven't heard this before.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so a co-author, one of my um sets of clients is the Pastor's Wives Tell All, and they have this great podcast.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: There are three of them.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: So since Co.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: is kind of two, it probably doesn't fit, but the three of them are are tri authoring that book.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's they're all a part of it, and they are all writing it, they're sending it back to each other.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Other and they're and they're doing that.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Husband and wife teams will do this as well, or ministry partners.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're actually both writing the book.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: It may not be like 50-50, it could be like 60-40, but it for all intents and purposes, they're all pulling their weight.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: A collaborative author is someone who um typically can take what someone has written, um, and it may be a small amount of stuff that's written, and then go ahead and create from that.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a ghost typically, again, you said the lines will blur between all of these.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: A ghost is usually someone who interviews and asks questions, sometimes records those interviews and creates a book.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I just finished the book Spare about Prince Harry, and I just read an article about his ghostwriter.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's a crazy.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: I just read that article a couple days ago.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Such a good article.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was the best article on ghostwriting I've ever read.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: So really helpful.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And just how they're, you know, you're talking back and forth and you are arguing with one another, and the author's like, you shouldn't put this in there because it's telling too much, or you need to put more here.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, it can be a contentious thing that happens.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: It also can be very beautiful.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: But the the um ghostwriter is actually physically writing the whole thing.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's not really much to pull from other than like what they're hearing.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's funny how there can be kind of a and even with my experience as a ghostwriter, your experience from client to client can be radically different.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in terms of how much they want to be involved and what their role is and everything.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: My favorite kinds of projects tend to be the ones where I am on the cover and I can be named.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or we have negotiated for that because I can promote the book too.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I always, when I talk to prospective clients, that's how I always tend to pitch it as now some books I don't really want my name on.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: If it's not something, if it's something that's way off brand or whatever.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yes, like I did.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, but but if but if it does work out well, then it's good because I can help promote the book and be a champion of it.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't take any way, it doesn't take anything away from the author, really, to have a with credit on the cover.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, and it used it used to be like in the 90s and the early 2000s that there weren't a lot of widths.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like that famous person wrote that book and people were deceived.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: They thought, wow, that famous person really knows how to write when they really did not know how to write.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, having that co, you know, that width, I think is just it's a part of integrity.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: But again, like you said, I I don't want to make a full, you know, hard stop rule because, like I said, I pulled pulled off of one because I just thought, I don't want my name on that.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: It just depends on the it totally depends on the situation.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I want to respect your time, but I but I do have a couple more questions here.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: One, it just involves your writing habits as an author who's written a lot of books.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: What kinds of things are in place in your life in terms of when you write, or uh any specific writing tools that are really your favorites, or what kinds of things help you get the work done as a writer?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, first of all, I would say in the 90s, when I was unpublished, I spent a lot of time learning discipline in writing.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I would give myself weird deadlines, like I'm gonna write an article about this random thing and I'm gonna have it done by Tuesday, but then I would make sure I would finish it by Monday.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it might not have ever been published, but I trained myself to always meet my deadlines early.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just writing and writing and writing.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing my 10,000 hours, probably 20,000 hours of just becoming faithful and a good writer.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I'm on deadline, I typically will write either five to 10,000 words a week.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm on a quick deadline, it'll be 10 or 20,000 words a week.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um I have a uh just a funny little sheet that I make in Word with blanks in it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And one blank equals a thousand words.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I, you know, finish those thousand words, I color it in with a different color.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very rainbowy and bright.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I put it right by my on my near my monitor, and it's on a clipboard, and every day I see it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if I have to write 2,000 words, then I know I have to fill in two, you know, of those blanks.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm gonna write 4,000 words, I have to fill in four of those blanks.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm relentless.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I will not let, I will, I have to meet that deadline.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so that to me is I've trained myself.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've been able to write an entire book, 50,000 words in two weeks before, because I've been training at it like um like a workout person for so many years, for 20 years.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I am fast, but that's because I practiced a lot.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: And gosh, I'm so glad you shared that story because so many, so many writers, or particularly beginning writers, they sort of feel like, man, I'm just slow, or I'm not this or I'm not that.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't realize that you can change, you can adjust, you can grow, and you be you can become much more than what you are at the moment.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I 50,000 words in two weeks.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: That that is a lot.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm gonna say a lot.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's impressive.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's really I don't want to do that again, but I did yeah, but it, you know, when push comes to shove, you can do it.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yes.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: I want to ask about your uh book proposal intensive.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm super curious about this uh and how this works and uh who might actually be a good fit for this kind of thing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so if people are interested, they can go to marriedemuth literary.com slash proposal, or they can just go to married literary.com and they'll they'll see a thing about it.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's in January, it's two and a half days.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: But what is what it entails is everything that you need to know about writing a proposal.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're done with that intensive, you're gonna have if you've done your homework, you're gonna have your completed proposal ready to shop.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there'll be training prior to so that you're you don't you're not just attacking it blindly and follow up afterwards.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and also an an exclusive template that um will help serve them for the rest of their publishing career.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so um that's I've been training people to do this for years and years and years.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's besides platform, that's the number one pain point, uh, particularly of nonfiction authors.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Although if a fiction, if a novelist wants to get their foot in the door, if they write a proposal, they're gonna stand out because not every novelist will do that.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: They'll just do, you know, the synopsis and you know, they'll write the whole book because that's what you have to do.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if they also do a proposal, it will make them stand out.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I have been doing this for a really long time and um I I get emails from editors all the time.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your clients and the way they're doing proposals because we're creating them so that it makes it easier on the editor in Pubboard.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is a huge win on all sides.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, are you currently looking at or taking new clients as an agent?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: I am.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm close, I'm getting close to my, I want to um go to 50.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I'm getting close, but I'm never uh I don't want to turn something down if I really feel you know passionate about it.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, I am taking new clients.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: So what kinds of clients would be ideal for those who are listening?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe they're thinking, hey, I'm a Christian author.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've got this message I want to share, uh, or I want to write this book.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I could be a potential fit for somebody like Mary.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: But what are the what are kind of like the basic qualifications for you to be able to work with a prospective author?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I definitely want to see someone who's done their homework about the industry, who is um very understanding that it is a hard industry.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have to do a lot of hand holding, and that's fine.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that's part of my job, but it's easier if you've pulled some weight there.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously, if you've built your platform and I actually like better than things like Instagram and TikTok and all of that, my favorite platform is an email distribution list because that has been actually proven to sell books rather than the other things are nebulous and you're not really sure.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or like I mentioned about Chris, where okay, you've self-published and you've moved 10,000 copies.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to talk to you, obviously.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, or if you have uh you're known in that space.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I have one author who she's just been faithfully leading these Bible studies um in person and online for years, and she's just that's she's known there.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is is really exciting.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and I also really appreciate people who are not writing what everybody else is writing.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very, very tired of a lot of Christian publishing right now, it's a lot of cliche, it's a lot of regurgitation of other Christian books over and over and over.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm looking for something spectacular, unique, um, beautiful, obviously, and uh something that I mean, I know there's nothing new under the sun, but an angle that hasn't been approached before.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, I I love that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: And what once in a while we do see those books come out that it's it seems like it comes out of nowhere, and it's something so totally different and unique.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: You just go, wow, I can't believe nobody has come at this familiar topic from this angle before.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then everybody tries to copy it because you know, and actually that's kind of how we work, of course.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yes, because of the risk aversion.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: No one likes to risk, so they're always going to try the the easy bet.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And publishing is gambling.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really is.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's gambling.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: So um, they're gambling on you as an author.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Will you perform?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Will you sell books?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it is a speculative job.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And another thing to remember, and this is the thing that I've had to come to the point with this year, been a rough year.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just in publishing for me personally.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I finally had to just say, okay, this is not a meritocracy.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can be a very good writer, you can meet all your deadlines, you can have the most unique ideas, you can have an exceptionally strong platform.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: It does not necessarily mean that you will be able to continue to keep going.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, I I used, I guess I was delusional thinking, I'm just gonna work so hard and I'm gonna, it doesn't there can be people who work none at all and they get this publishing deal and they didn't even try.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it won't be fair.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what we have to remember.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: It is there are flukes, and you just have to learn to go with flow and trust your own journey and know that it's the right journey for you, even if it doesn't look like someone else's.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, I love that.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, again, I mentioned I want to respect your time, but I want to do something a little bit unusual, if that's okay.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I've actually never done this on this podcast before.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: So this isn't really a Christian quote unquote podcast, but people know that I'm a person of faith and all that.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you spend a lot of your time praying for others.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering if it would be okay if I take a moment to pray for you as we wrap up this conversation.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I would love that.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Lord, I'm so grateful for Mary and her books and her writing and her wisdom and her work on behalf of authors.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: You have used her in some incredibly powerful ways over the past couple of decades, not just as an author, but as a human being as well.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And God, I'm praying that you uh continue to expand her platform and her service and her impact through the Christian publishing world and far, far beyond that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: We know that you're a God who redeems, you're a God who takes our brokenness and you take our lives that sometimes in the moment feel messy and disorganized, and we're not sure how things are going to turn out.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you make something beautiful out of those.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so thankful that Mary has communicated that message and so much more through her books and through her podcasts.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, Lord, I'm praying that you would continue to lead the right clients to her and give her the right deals and the right connections and the right listeners uh so you can continue to speak powerfully through her platform and her books and her writing and most importantly her life.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: We pray in Jesus' name.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: This has been an absolute blast.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I've really enjoyed this conversation.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna have to send uh my good buddy Chris, you know, some uh crumble cookies or gift basket or something for uh making the connection here.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate that.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for making the time to be a guest today.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: No problem.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And just yeah, send me when you're live and I'll tweet and whatever.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Put up on socials.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Be happy to thank you again.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, have a good day.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Too.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: All right, bye.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I want to thank Mary for taking the time out to be a guest today on the Daily Rider Podcast.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Wasn't that fun?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: She's really, really smart.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: And my goodness, I always enjoy talking to really smart people because they help me to learn.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also hopefully fun for you to listen into those conversations because you get to benefit from their wisdom and experience and knowledge.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Now, at the top of the episode, I listed a bunch of links for you to check out, including MaryDemuth.com, her pray everyday podcast, the section on her website for our artwork, and her literary agency.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Mary has tons of ways to help you as a writer.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I encourage you to go to those links, check all that stuff out, and support the incredible work she's doing on behalf of authors today.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: As always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.