Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Idaho Student Murders: Black Glove at Crime Scene

Transcript

Idaho Student Murders: Black Glove at Crime Scene · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. After four students slaughtered in
0:18
Speaker 1: their beds in Idaho on the edge of campus, police
0:23
Speaker 1: are releasing body cam footage, body cam footage that occurred
0:29
Speaker 1: the night of the murders. Why now this as we
0:35
Speaker 1: learn the elected coroner assigned to the quadruple murder, who
0:40
Speaker 1: was also a Twins lawyer, also represents a killer. I'm
0:48
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:50
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and serious xmleven. First
0:54
Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to this. For the first time,
0:56
Speaker 1: detectives in Idaho are releasing body camera footage hoping it
0:59
Speaker 1: can provide new leads in the case of those four
1:02
Speaker 1: murdered college students. Seven. The videos show officers on patrol
1:06
Speaker 1: in Moscow, Idaho, in the early morning hours of November thirteenth,
1:10
Speaker 1: around the time investigators believe Zanner carnotal Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan,
1:16
Speaker 1: and Kaylee Gonzalvas were killed in a home near the
1:18
Speaker 1: University of Idaho, taking out twenty one yeah. In one video,
1:23
Speaker 1: officers are seen issuing citations to three teams for underage
1:27
Speaker 1: drinking an apartment complex across the street from the victim's
1:30
Speaker 1: home is visible just steps away from the officers. Investigators
1:34
Speaker 1: say the people in the videos have been cleared and
1:36
Speaker 1: the incidents have nothing to do with the murders. As
1:39
Speaker 1: you were just hearing from our friends at ABC, bodycam
1:42
Speaker 1: footage has been released. Detectives in Idaho releasing bodycam footage
1:46
Speaker 1: hoping it can provide new leads with me and All
1:50
Speaker 1: Star panel. But first to Dave Matt Crime online dot
1:52
Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter Dave Mac, I'm just curious about the
1:56
Speaker 1: timing of the release of the bodycam footage, but more portant.
2:00
Speaker 1: The footage shows Moscow police on patrol in the early
2:06
Speaker 1: morning hours of November thirteen, around the time of the murders,
2:12
Speaker 1: and in one of the videos, we see officers giving
2:16
Speaker 1: citations to three teams for underage drinking an apartment complex
2:21
Speaker 1: across the street from the victim's home. It's visible. Now.
2:25
Speaker 1: Tell me the significance of that, Dave Mac. It actually
2:29
Speaker 1: sets the entire scene for what was taking place at
2:33
Speaker 1: the moment we believe the murders took place. It shows
2:38
Speaker 1: the police, as you mentioned, they're right near the apartment
2:40
Speaker 1: complex that is near the house. You can see the
2:43
Speaker 1: whole area. You can see the cars, you can see
2:46
Speaker 1: anything that was going on. So again setting the table
2:49
Speaker 1: for what was taking place in the moment we believe
2:52
Speaker 1: the murders took place. Guys, over the past forty eight hours,
2:56
Speaker 1: I have watched one particular video over and over and over.
3:03
Speaker 1: I'd stop it, I'd try to reverse it. I'd watch
3:06
Speaker 1: each segment over and over. And I've got to tell
3:10
Speaker 1: you where I found it. I found it at a podcast,
3:16
Speaker 1: but there is video to go with it. It's called
3:21
Speaker 1: the Interview Room. And i gotta tell you something. Watching
3:28
Speaker 1: the podcast and you'll see why, not just listening to it,
3:31
Speaker 1: but watching it, and you can you can get it
3:33
Speaker 1: on your iPad, your iPhone, the Interview Room. I'll tell
3:37
Speaker 1: you why it was so significant to me. The words
3:42
Speaker 1: I was hearing as I watched it helped me a
3:43
Speaker 1: lot too. But what I saw was, well, Cheryl McCollum,
3:50
Speaker 1: this is why I never tried a case without going
3:52
Speaker 1: to the crime scene first. Okay, Cheryl McCollum with me
3:56
Speaker 1: right now. Is guy named Chris mcdonnaugh now. He was
4:01
Speaker 1: a director at a cold case foundation, former homicide detective.
4:06
Speaker 1: That's Cold Case Foundation dot org. As I said, former
4:11
Speaker 1: homicide worked over three hundred homicides over twenty five years,
4:17
Speaker 1: and he is host of this podcast called The Interview Room.
4:22
Speaker 1: And what I saw is this he and I think
4:27
Speaker 1: it's your wife, Chris mcdonnaugh, but a lady that you
4:29
Speaker 1: keep calling honey. Apparently the two of you were in
4:33
Speaker 1: a car, but somebody was in a car and it
4:37
Speaker 1: slowly ease through town. It looked a lot like where
4:42
Speaker 1: I grew up, Chris mcdonna, not even in a city
4:45
Speaker 1: outside a little city making Georgia was a little at
4:48
Speaker 1: the time. There's snow everywhere in this video, and you're
4:53
Speaker 1: riding along and you see everything and the guy and
4:59
Speaker 1: I think that's you. McDonough is talking over it, and
5:03
Speaker 1: he is telling you everything you're seeing. As you drive
5:06
Speaker 1: through Moscow, Idaho. You get to a gas station, he's
5:12
Speaker 1: telling you this is this, that's that. And at that
5:15
Speaker 1: gas station, I think that there's going to be video
5:20
Speaker 1: security cam. You turn the left and start climbing up
5:24
Speaker 1: a hill and then you realize exactly what mcdonnah says.
5:30
Speaker 1: You gotta know where you're going to get to eleven
5:34
Speaker 1: twenty two King the Murder House. You go weave all
5:38
Speaker 1: up in there, and you see houses all around it,
5:42
Speaker 1: very similar to the murder house. You see the apartment complex. Guys,
5:48
Speaker 1: I could throw a baseball from the apartment complex to
5:54
Speaker 1: the murder house. Mcdonnah takes you up this little ridge
5:58
Speaker 1: and guess where you end up. You're right there behind
6:03
Speaker 1: the murder house where many of us believe the killer
6:06
Speaker 1: had been looking down. I mean, it's right there. It's amazing.
6:12
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, welcome. Now you just heard Dave Matt Chris
6:16
Speaker 1: mcdonnah describing the relevance of this bodycam footage. Explain to us,
6:23
Speaker 1: where is that footage in relation to even twenty two
6:26
Speaker 1: king the murder house. So that path, there's a path, Nancy,
6:30
Speaker 1: directly to the front door of that residence from where
6:33
Speaker 1: that footage was being filmed that evening from the body camera.
6:37
Speaker 1: You mean in the woods behind the house. There's a
6:40
Speaker 1: path going up to the door. No, if we take
6:43
Speaker 1: the body camera footage that evening from the police officers
6:46
Speaker 1: on the alcohol contact you, if you cross that street,
6:51
Speaker 1: it goes directly to the front door of that house.
6:55
Speaker 1: Oh wait a minute, Wait a minute, Chris mcdonna, wows
7:00
Speaker 1: if your drive along wasn't enough. Did you hear that, Dave,
7:04
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, did you hear that? Where this body cam
7:07
Speaker 1: footage is? You cross the street and you're at the
7:10
Speaker 1: crime scene with me? Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder of
7:13
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, Chris Sheryl and I fought in
7:18
Speaker 1: the trenches together when I was a prosecutor. She's a
7:21
Speaker 1: forensic expert. You can find her a coldcase Crimes do
7:23
Speaker 1: or Cheryl White. Is this so important that everybody look
7:27
Speaker 1: at this drive along? Well? I think you cannot overstate
7:31
Speaker 1: the importance to visit the crime scene. You and I
7:33
Speaker 1: have talked about that before. Where this house is, where
7:36
Speaker 1: this path is, where these woods are. You're talking about
7:39
Speaker 1: a watch area of the perpetrator. And these young people
7:44
Speaker 1: might have been stalked for an hour and a half,
7:46
Speaker 1: they might have been stalked for two weeks. But if
7:49
Speaker 1: you remember, days and weeks after the murders, law enforcement
7:54
Speaker 1: returned to that area and you can see them even
7:56
Speaker 1: squatting down and walking through that wooded area. If they're
7:59
Speaker 1: not collect anything, they're literally looking at this watch here.
8:03
Speaker 1: You just see where this perpetrator might have come and
8:05
Speaker 1: hung out for quite some time. Doctor Bethany Marshall with
8:08
Speaker 1: me psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills at doctor
8:11
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. She's a star in Bling Empire
8:16
Speaker 1: and more. Doctor Bethany, I want you to hear what
8:19
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnaugh and Cheryl mccollumer's saying, how just on top
8:24
Speaker 1: of the quadruple murder and we're going to go to
8:26
Speaker 1: doctor preabannergy on that just a second. She is as
8:30
Speaker 1: systant medical examiner and forensic pathologist. On top of that,
8:35
Speaker 1: you've got the possibility that someone was sitting back on
8:40
Speaker 1: that area right, it's almost a butts into the back
8:44
Speaker 1: of the murder house, watching them. And I've tried to
8:48
Speaker 1: show this picture a million times, doctor Bethany. It's a
8:51
Speaker 1: picture taken from inside the Sigma Kai House and you
8:55
Speaker 1: can see Ethan sitting there. But that's not the point.
8:59
Speaker 1: The points you look out the window, look right at
9:02
Speaker 1: the murder house, Nancy there on top of it. Somebody
9:06
Speaker 1: sitting there watching them all this time. I know, Nancy,
9:09
Speaker 1: And just like you were watching the video, I was
9:12
Speaker 1: looking at the photos of these beautiful young people. They
9:16
Speaker 1: are so attractive young at the prime of their life.
9:19
Speaker 1: And there are quite a few photos of all four
9:22
Speaker 1: of the victims together, So you amalgamate that information with
9:27
Speaker 1: somebody who had clear visual access to this home, and
9:32
Speaker 1: in my mind, it begins to tell me a little
9:35
Speaker 1: bit about the motive of the perpetrator, not just to
9:38
Speaker 1: attack one individual and then the others are in their way,
9:41
Speaker 1: but somebody who is attracted to a group, a group
9:45
Speaker 1: of people who love each other, who are getting along.
9:49
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anybody else comment on this, but think
9:52
Speaker 1: about it. I don't know if I buy into that,
9:55
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why. Okay, start that to Chris mcdonna,
9:57
Speaker 1: everybody from a homicide detective, it's hard for me to
10:01
Speaker 1: imagine a killer wanting to murder a whole group. Now
10:07
Speaker 1: you've done so many homicides, and everybody, remember this is
10:11
Speaker 1: crime stories. This ain't high Tea at windsor Castle. Jump
10:15
Speaker 1: in for Pete's sake. But Chris, unless it's a family situation,
10:21
Speaker 1: especially as we have a lot at Christmas where everybody
10:23
Speaker 1: gets crazy and goes in with a flamethrower and just
10:25
Speaker 1: blows all ways up, unless you're going for a whole family,
10:30
Speaker 1: I find that really hard to believe that you are
10:33
Speaker 1: targeting for people. Yeah, one hundred percent agree on Nancy,
10:36
Speaker 1: because I mean that's why this is such the magnitude
10:40
Speaker 1: that it is. One interesting point though to your discussion
10:45
Speaker 1: a minute ago, was you know, this is one way in,
10:48
Speaker 1: one way out. But what I thought was interesting one
10:53
Speaker 1: way in, one way out. Yes, hold the thought, Chris,
10:57
Speaker 1: because I want to circle back with anybody on the
11:00
Speaker 1: panel about why cell phone tower data may be important
11:04
Speaker 1: and why this white Olantra is so important that they're
11:07
Speaker 1: looking for. Because who the hey, Jackie is going to
11:11
Speaker 1: be driving out of a one way in, one way out.
11:13
Speaker 1: I described it as almost it called USAT at three
11:17
Speaker 1: or four o'clock in the morning. Who is that person
11:20
Speaker 1: that's high tail and it's getting out? And in your video, Chris,
11:23
Speaker 1: it really hit me the thick snow like he Chris
11:28
Speaker 1: was trying to walk down in some leaves to give
11:30
Speaker 1: you a good vantage point. He's slip, going to slip,
11:34
Speaker 1: so he's kind of like creeping along in the video.
11:37
Speaker 1: So I want to circle back on that, jack So
11:40
Speaker 1: don't let me forget go ahead, Chris, y know. And
11:42
Speaker 1: so what's interesting is the night of the alcohol contact
11:46
Speaker 1: right that evening. That officer was in a plain clothes,
11:50
Speaker 1: you know situation, So you have to ask yourself, what
11:54
Speaker 1: did he see prior to the homicides. If he's spotted
11:57
Speaker 1: the juveniles drinking alcohol, he obviously was set up in
12:02
Speaker 1: a surveillance situation. So if a vehicle or somebody was walking,
12:06
Speaker 1: did that officer have you know, visual contact with that
12:10
Speaker 1: potential suspect even you know, approaching the home. So it
12:15
Speaker 1: actually strengthened the back of the house as a potential
12:20
Speaker 1: place where this individual would hang out. Crime Stories with
12:35
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I don't think I noticed in your video,
12:41
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna. You saw the overlapping crime scene tape and
12:46
Speaker 1: it looked like Cheryl McCollum. As Chris points out in
12:51
Speaker 1: his video on the Interview Room podcast, I found it
12:55
Speaker 1: on I think I found it on YouTube. Cheryl. Number one,
13:00
Speaker 1: you cannot minimize the importance of going to a crime scene.
13:04
Speaker 1: You can't try a case unless you've seen the scene.
13:07
Speaker 1: I've had defense with it and says tell me what
13:09
Speaker 1: they saw that night. And then because I had been
13:11
Speaker 1: to the sin, I could say, well, wait a minute,
13:13
Speaker 1: isn't there a huge six foot tall thick hedge between
13:17
Speaker 1: where you are and where the Jope deal went down,
13:20
Speaker 1: and then they're like, uh what, huh okay, yeah, that's
13:25
Speaker 1: why you have to see it. Now, what are you
13:28
Speaker 1: making of what Chris mcdonnad just told us? Well, I
13:31
Speaker 1: think the most important thing that he's pointed out is
13:33
Speaker 1: the one way in, one way out. Most killers do
13:37
Speaker 1: not box themselves in. So if they're just driving around
13:41
Speaker 1: randomly looking for somebody to harm, they're not going to
13:44
Speaker 1: put themselves in a situation where they are trapped. They're
13:47
Speaker 1: not going to do it. They're going to make sure
13:49
Speaker 1: that they've got an escape route forward, backwards, and sideways.
13:52
Speaker 1: This person did not do that here, and to me,
13:55
Speaker 1: that is critical. Joining me IRV. Brandt, Senior Inspector US
13:58
Speaker 1: Marshall Service. Also DJ I'm author of solo shot Curse
14:05
Speaker 1: of the Blue Stone. It's on Amazon come February, also
14:09
Speaker 1: Flying Solo. Wow or Brandt, how do you have time
14:13
Speaker 1: to do everything that you do all your books? Question
14:15
Speaker 1: to you, if this guy was undercover, he probably would
14:18
Speaker 1: not have had a body cam, a shoulder a shoulder CaMLA. No,
14:22
Speaker 1: that's correct. I mean until he's coming into contact with
14:27
Speaker 1: the people that he wants to interview is when he
14:30
Speaker 1: would turn on the body camera. So the events leading
14:34
Speaker 1: up to him making contact probably wouldn't have been recorded
14:41
Speaker 1: because he'd had no reason to turn that boy cam on. Yeah,
14:45
Speaker 1: and Robert Crispins joining me PI former Federal Task Force
14:48
Speaker 1: d EA in Miami. Never lack a business there specialty
14:53
Speaker 1: homicide crimes on children. You can find him at Crispin
14:56
Speaker 1: Investigations dot com. Thank god, at some point he did
15:00
Speaker 1: turn on the bodycam. It should give us a view
15:04
Speaker 1: or somewhat of a view of what was happening around
15:07
Speaker 1: the murder thing. Hey, Nan, can I change in for
15:09
Speaker 1: a second? Okay, jump in bath? So sorry, I just
15:13
Speaker 1: disagree with the group about a couple of things, and
15:15
Speaker 1: I am not boarded handycam. I hold it, I'll hold it.
15:21
Speaker 1: Hold on, Crispin, finish the thought on bodycam. So the
15:24
Speaker 1: issue with the bodycams is it's HD quality video, and
15:27
Speaker 1: I'm sure that they've gone back and they've probably pulled
15:29
Speaker 1: a lot more than just his bodycam, because in the background,
15:33
Speaker 1: as you saw in the ones that they've released, you
15:36
Speaker 1: see some other cars parked there, you see some other
15:38
Speaker 1: things that are going around. So it's kind of giving
15:40
Speaker 1: us more of a sketch of the crime scene area.
15:44
Speaker 1: And with the technology today, and you spoke about those
15:47
Speaker 1: cell phone towers, which we can talk about later. You
15:50
Speaker 1: know in the timing that this happened, and I'll explain
15:52
Speaker 1: it when you're ready. That is going to be the
15:55
Speaker 1: technology that's going to assist law enforcement in making an
15:59
Speaker 1: app for pension in this case. Now Jackie has held
16:02
Speaker 1: up a sign and it said the roads look more
16:06
Speaker 1: like alleys than roads. I think that may be because
16:09
Speaker 1: they're covered in snow and by the time people have
16:12
Speaker 1: driven over then they look like muddy tracks in snow.
16:18
Speaker 1: What about a Chris mcdonna, think about the snow factor
16:21
Speaker 1: here and oh, everybody in your mind think about where
16:24
Speaker 1: are they getting the chip on the white Hyundai A
16:30
Speaker 1: Launchra and how could it get through that snow? Chris mcdonna,
16:36
Speaker 1: I couldn't really tell. Were you driving up a road
16:39
Speaker 1: once you get up where the house is, are those
16:42
Speaker 1: are those actual roads? Are they paths? What are they?
16:45
Speaker 1: They're covered in snow? Yeah. So when you turn up
16:48
Speaker 1: that street, the main street on King Street, if you
16:52
Speaker 1: fall it straight up, Nancy, it goes up and around
16:55
Speaker 1: that apartment complex and it brings you behind the target house. Yeah,
17:04
Speaker 1: there's a big parking lot behind going up that. If
17:09
Speaker 1: you're in that parking lot, can you look down at
17:12
Speaker 1: the murder house? Yes? One. And that's why it was
17:15
Speaker 1: still interesting to be back there, because just even getting
17:19
Speaker 1: up into that area, a I have a truck and
17:23
Speaker 1: I had to put it into four wheel drive to
17:25
Speaker 1: to get up that hill because of the ice. You know,
17:29
Speaker 1: to your point, Jack, you look up if a hun Alantra,
17:34
Speaker 1: let's just go with twenty thirteen has four whole drive
17:38
Speaker 1: because I don't think it does. But that said, all right,
17:40
Speaker 1: so there's your answer to the roads. Yeah, it's not
17:43
Speaker 1: only is this body camp footage just been released? What
17:48
Speaker 1: can it tell us? We have to review the whole thing.
17:51
Speaker 1: But in the middle of all this, another bomb is dropped.
17:55
Speaker 1: We now have a neighbor stating they heard a woman's
17:59
Speaker 1: scream but thought nothing of it. Take a listen to
18:03
Speaker 1: our friends at Inside Edition. And now a neighbor who
18:05
Speaker 1: lives near the house says he heard a woman screaming
18:09
Speaker 1: the night of the murders. Thirty year old Enon Harsh,
18:12
Speaker 1: a chef, says he thinks he heard the scream out
18:15
Speaker 1: around four am, but he quickly dismissed it as noise
18:19
Speaker 1: coming from a party. I didn't think anything of it.
18:22
Speaker 1: After what happened, I've definitely had second thoughts. Maybe it
18:26
Speaker 1: was not a party sound for am, he says, around
18:32
Speaker 1: for am. And you know, Cheryl McCollum, anything can start
18:37
Speaker 1: a timeline. It could be a broken watch on a
18:41
Speaker 1: murder victim's hand that crack and you see what time
18:44
Speaker 1: that happened. It could be the dog in the Nicole
18:48
Speaker 1: Brown Ron Goldman double murder at the hands of O. J. Simpson,
18:51
Speaker 1: where the dog Akita lets out this as the neighbor
18:54
Speaker 1: says mournful. Well, and here we've got a four am
19:00
Speaker 1: about for am scream Cheryl, Well, Nancy, you and I
19:07
Speaker 1: have done a whole lot together on cases, and I
19:11
Speaker 1: am a firm believer in knocking on doors. This man
19:15
Speaker 1: should have been found day one, day two. They should
19:18
Speaker 1: canvas again. They should go door to door. Here, door
19:23
Speaker 1: to door is going to answer things video can't quite frankly,
19:26
Speaker 1: just like the earwitness video even going to give you that.
19:29
Speaker 1: So to me, who has moved away, who didn't come
19:32
Speaker 1: back from Thanksgiving break, who appears nervous, who drives a
19:36
Speaker 1: similar car. They got to get boots on the ground
19:38
Speaker 1: and go door to door crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
20:00
Speaker 1: we're talking about the most recent updates in the last
20:03
Speaker 1: seventy two hours in the investigation into the murtyrs of
20:07
Speaker 1: four beautiful young University Idaho students. Chris mcdonnah, you have
20:13
Speaker 1: been all over the scene. What do you make of
20:17
Speaker 1: what this new ear witness is saying. I'm trying to
20:21
Speaker 1: figure out where he lives in relation to the house.
20:24
Speaker 1: He's a chef, he says, he here's a scream at
20:28
Speaker 1: four a m. Well, you have to ask yourself first
20:31
Speaker 1: of all, you know to the last point is you know,
20:36
Speaker 1: good old fashioned police work, you know, ringing doorbells was
20:41
Speaker 1: you know needed and it still is one hundred percent agree.
20:45
Speaker 1: But you know, if this in fact is the case,
20:49
Speaker 1: then you can do some forensic analysis in relationship to audio.
20:53
Speaker 1: You can bring in some folks, you know, to measure
20:56
Speaker 1: off sound how far it travels at four am and
21:00
Speaker 1: see if that's even a possibility. But that needs to
21:02
Speaker 1: be that box needs to be checked now that this
21:05
Speaker 1: witness has come forward, just to verify the validity of
21:10
Speaker 1: that potential, and so the fact that the individual, in
21:14
Speaker 1: my opinion, wasn't discovered immediately, you know, then you have
21:19
Speaker 1: to ask yourself, well, what's going on in that individual
21:23
Speaker 1: why they didn't come forward earlier, and so then you
21:27
Speaker 1: have to go down. Can I make a comment about that, Yeah, Joe,
21:31
Speaker 1: I heard somebody. I heard somebody screaming in my neighborhood
21:34
Speaker 1: a couple months ago. It was about three or four
21:37
Speaker 1: in the morning, and I heard it. My husband didn't,
21:40
Speaker 1: and we talked about it for about three days. Did
21:42
Speaker 1: you hear something? Did you not? Should we have called
21:44
Speaker 1: the police? It ended up being our next door neighbor
21:47
Speaker 1: had a schizophrenic niece he had taken in who ended
21:50
Speaker 1: up attacking him in the middle of the night. But
21:53
Speaker 1: we debated for a few days, and my husband's a judge,
21:56
Speaker 1: and we should have just called nine one one right away.
21:59
Speaker 1: So does it matter how educated you are, how smart
22:02
Speaker 1: you are. Witnesses doubt themselves. This is why child abuse
22:07
Speaker 1: is so vastly underreported. So I would wonder who in
22:11
Speaker 1: this neighborhood also knows something that they don't want to
22:15
Speaker 1: get somebody in trouble who may not be you know,
22:18
Speaker 1: a primary accessory to the crime. You know what's interesting,
22:22
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, I agree with you. I was calling nine
22:24
Speaker 1: one one. I don't even think it through because I
22:27
Speaker 1: know how critical it could turn out to be. What's
22:30
Speaker 1: interesting about this scream the chef neighbor. Here's it's closer
22:35
Speaker 1: to four am. Now if we start the timeline there,
22:39
Speaker 1: let's just go out on the legend. We start the
22:41
Speaker 1: timeline there. That could include or remove the validity of
22:49
Speaker 1: the white Hyundai Elantra, which, by the way, Jackie's saying,
22:53
Speaker 1: does not have a four wheel drop. So could it
22:55
Speaker 1: get up the heels that Chris mcdone is showing us
22:58
Speaker 1: in his video in the interview room. Could it What
23:03
Speaker 1: if it was part in that parking lot behind the house.
23:07
Speaker 1: Could it have gone down the heels if it was
23:10
Speaker 1: already there? That's just something hand Nancy John. One other
23:14
Speaker 1: quick thing is when does the sun come up? When
23:17
Speaker 1: does the sun come up there? Because that's part of
23:19
Speaker 1: your timeline too. It's whoever was watching this. That's really good, hey,
23:24
Speaker 1: Jackie or Sydney. Just look up you can do in
23:27
Speaker 1: Farmers out Almanac, what time was the sunrise on that day?
23:30
Speaker 1: In Moscow. I'm gonna get that, Doctor Bethany. I always
23:33
Speaker 1: look up the weather at the time of an incident.
23:37
Speaker 1: Doctor Pria Banerjee joining me, for instance, pathologists. You can
23:40
Speaker 1: find her an anchor at Forensic Pathology, Doctor Banerjee. We
23:45
Speaker 1: believe that the four murders by NiFe occurred between three
23:50
Speaker 1: and four a m. They police didn't get there until
23:55
Speaker 1: noon for a lot of different reasons. Question to you,
24:00
Speaker 1: I know it's a science, I know it's an art
24:04
Speaker 1: determining t OD time of death. But regarding blood, what
24:11
Speaker 1: condition would the blood have been? Okay, if the bodies,
24:18
Speaker 1: if they've been killed at say four a m. At twelve,
24:21
Speaker 1: would it have all been coagulated? Wouldn't it have all
24:23
Speaker 1: been dried? And then we got to think about how
24:26
Speaker 1: do you collect dried versus coagulated versus fresh blood? But
24:31
Speaker 1: how can you look at a dead body dead by
24:34
Speaker 1: knife stabbing and tell me TD Yeah, I mean I
24:38
Speaker 1: think I have so many thoughts on this case, you know,
24:40
Speaker 1: regarding even crime scene stuff. I'll come back to it.
24:43
Speaker 1: But to answer this question, it is an approximation. But
24:46
Speaker 1: I think if you work backwards, like when we I
24:49
Speaker 1: always used to go to a crime scene. So I'm
24:51
Speaker 1: with you, Nancy. I like to see the body at
24:54
Speaker 1: the scene, sort of understand the environment in which the
24:59
Speaker 1: crime and you know occurred, because that also plays into
25:03
Speaker 1: did the person fight back or here we have multiple
25:06
Speaker 1: you know, individuals that they fight back, what might who
25:09
Speaker 1: might have come first or second, third, fourth? But you know,
25:13
Speaker 1: blood is a you know, it's a fluid, but then
25:18
Speaker 1: it'll collagulate and dry. It really depends on if it's
25:21
Speaker 1: near an air vent and the heat, on how much
25:24
Speaker 1: blood is pooled. I mean, so that it's hard for
25:26
Speaker 1: me to say, but as time goes on, obviously you're
25:29
Speaker 1: going to have sort of crust forming dried blood and
25:33
Speaker 1: so all of that's important. But not just whether it's collagulated,
25:36
Speaker 1: but the pattern, right, if someone's dripping blood from person,
25:41
Speaker 1: the person, the knife is dirty, slippery, the blood spatter pattern,
25:45
Speaker 1: and I mean there's you know, other experts on this
25:47
Speaker 1: call that are you know, detectives that really deal with
25:50
Speaker 1: um that you know, all of that's so critical, And
25:54
Speaker 1: that's why I like to go because you really get
25:56
Speaker 1: a feel for the movement of people within the Based
26:00
Speaker 1: on what doctor Pria Banerji is saying, forensic pathologist. I
26:04
Speaker 1: think that they can absolutely tell which two victims were
26:09
Speaker 1: killed first, because their blood is going to be on
26:12
Speaker 1: the other floor as victim three and four. Guys. In
26:17
Speaker 1: the middle of all of this, we've got the elected coroner.
26:21
Speaker 1: She's not a medical examiner, she's not an MD. It's
26:26
Speaker 1: a huge problem, guys. She is now This female coroner said,
26:33
Speaker 1: I looked it up like ten times her degree. The
26:36
Speaker 1: coroner is in I want to say political science or
26:40
Speaker 1: art history or psychology, not fat doctor Bethany. But you've
26:45
Speaker 1: got to hear this. I'm gonna break out of our order,
26:48
Speaker 1: Jackie go to cut one fifty two our friends at
26:51
Speaker 1: crime Online. The coroner who ruled four University of Idaho
26:55
Speaker 1: students were stabbed to death is also a defense attorney
26:59
Speaker 1: who is now representing a convicted killer who was just
27:03
Speaker 1: arrested a mile away from the murder house for stalking
27:07
Speaker 1: his wife around the house with a knife. The Leyta
27:11
Speaker 1: County Coroner Kathew Maybet and her office Maybet Law are
27:15
Speaker 1: representing thirty nine year old ex convict James Curtis Leonard
27:19
Speaker 1: of Moscow, Idaho. He allegedly assaulted his wife and her
27:23
Speaker 1: daughter and slashed himself with a knife. Leonard was arrested
27:26
Speaker 1: last week, just a mile from the scene where four
27:29
Speaker 1: University of Idaho students were stabbed to death on November thirteenth. Okay,
27:34
Speaker 1: Dave mack let me try to understand what I just
27:38
Speaker 1: heard from you. Major, major issue. The coroner, who was
27:43
Speaker 1: not a medical doctor, who was not the medical examiner. Ah,
27:48
Speaker 1: thank you, Jackie. She majored in political science, and she
27:53
Speaker 1: is the one that went out on TV, which my boss,
27:58
Speaker 1: mister Slaton always said, don't speak to the press, don't
28:01
Speaker 1: don't do it. If your jury here's it, they'll be
28:03
Speaker 1: thrown off. The jury, the petit jury. She's representing a
28:10
Speaker 1: convicted killer. Okay, who did the guy kill Dave mack? Well,
28:15
Speaker 1: he actually um pled guilty to manslaughter charge in two
28:19
Speaker 1: thousand and seven. It was he I think he was
28:24
Speaker 1: saying it was self defending. He got into a fight
28:26
Speaker 1: and killed a guy. But right, you know, he was
28:30
Speaker 1: sentenced to like fifteen years or whatever, but he ended
28:34
Speaker 1: up getting a suspended sentence. He spent a couple months
28:36
Speaker 1: in jail, that was it, and got out um and
28:40
Speaker 1: then but but again, he is still a convicted killer,
28:44
Speaker 1: and he assaulted his wife and daughter and has slashed
28:47
Speaker 1: himself with a knife. He chased them around. He actually,
28:51
Speaker 1: you know, the little the girl is fifteen years old.
28:54
Speaker 1: He slammed her so hard while he's chasing his wife
28:57
Speaker 1: that she showed signs of the concussion. Was hiding under
28:59
Speaker 1: a table when police got there. And he's arrested last
29:02
Speaker 1: week one mile from the same where the four university
29:04
Speaker 1: I know students were stabbed dead. Okay, doctor Priya Banerjee,
29:09
Speaker 1: why do we have a coroner who's not a medical
29:12
Speaker 1: loose hammer spout off on TV about the murders. She's
29:17
Speaker 1: a political science major, she got her law degree. She's
29:21
Speaker 1: representing a convicted killer at the same time she's talking
29:26
Speaker 1: about a murder case. I know, conflicts of interest, So
29:30
Speaker 1: coroner is that it's an elected official, so she got
29:36
Speaker 1: her way into the position. It's a paid political position,
29:39
Speaker 1: and now she's out there trying to represent herself in
29:43
Speaker 1: the media. I don't think it's I think it's malpracticed
29:46
Speaker 1: to talk I mean ethical, the ethics are just crazy.
29:49
Speaker 1: But even to talk about an ongoing murder investigation and
29:54
Speaker 1: release all these details when there's no potential suspects, really
29:59
Speaker 1: nailed down. I think it's it's ridiculous, Like, I don't
30:02
Speaker 1: know how the bar hasn't come down on her for that. Yeah,
30:07
Speaker 1: I don't wish the bar getting up anybody's tailpipe. But
30:11
Speaker 1: in this case, there's a big problem. And if anybody
30:15
Speaker 1: is ever ever brought to trial, we're going to have
30:18
Speaker 1: more problems on that. We got another problem, guys, as
30:21
Speaker 1: if you didn't already know that in the investigation, no
30:24
Speaker 1: fault of the police. Okay, so just get off there.
30:27
Speaker 1: Tell for a moment. It's about the food truck guy,
30:32
Speaker 1: as many people say, the hoodie guy. If you could
30:36
Speaker 1: just refresh everyone's recollection. Cheryl McCollum joining me from the
30:40
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute. Who's the hoodie guy. He's a
30:43
Speaker 1: guy in the background when you see Kaylee and Maddie,
30:47
Speaker 1: they're ordering food, they're talking to some friends. He's in
30:50
Speaker 1: the background. He's not talking anybody, he's not ordering food.
30:54
Speaker 1: He puts his hood up, he puts the baseball cap on.
30:56
Speaker 1: He's kind of trying to shield his face when they leave.
30:59
Speaker 1: He and so he's just very suspicious. And I believe
31:03
Speaker 1: Kaylee's sister is the one that found the video. In
31:05
Speaker 1: the first place, so it didn't look right to her either.
31:08
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation.
31:12
Speaker 1: I found him in his podcast The Interview Room. Chris mcdonnah,
31:16
Speaker 1: where were the food trucks as they relate to eleven
31:22
Speaker 1: twenty two King the murder sing They were downtown at
31:25
Speaker 1: three thirteen North Maine, So it's about, you know, just
31:30
Speaker 1: under three miles from the residents where Kaylee, Medicine, Zenna
31:37
Speaker 1: and Ethan were. Okay, now, according to police and anybody, Crispin, Brant, McCollum, Marshall, mcdonnaugh,
31:45
Speaker 1: Matt jump in, if you have anything that could help
31:50
Speaker 1: us on this guy. We have been told and I
31:53
Speaker 1: don't know that I believe this, that the food truck guy,
31:56
Speaker 1: the hoodie guy has left the country. Okay, I don't
32:00
Speaker 1: even coincidences. But take a listen to our cut one
32:02
Speaker 1: forty eight our friend Les Trent. You're looking at enhanced
32:06
Speaker 1: video of the confrontation between two of the University of
32:09
Speaker 1: Idaho murder victims and another student at a food truck.
32:13
Speaker 1: The time one thirty am, just hours before the murders,
32:18
Speaker 1: Kaylee Gonsalves and Madison Mogan stopped for Mac and cheese
32:21
Speaker 1: after partying out a nearby bar. Everybody seemed like in
32:25
Speaker 1: good spirits, nothing seemed off, and then they start interacting
32:28
Speaker 1: with a couple of other people. They're waiting for their food. Now,
32:30
Speaker 1: look at this video shows Madison pointing out a man
32:34
Speaker 1: in a hoodie who appeared to have followed them to
32:36
Speaker 1: the truck. We had the video and audio from the
32:39
Speaker 1: clip enhanced, and you can hear her using an expletive.
32:44
Speaker 1: Blank you mister, she says. Okay, So you hear her
32:48
Speaker 1: saying fu. Why is this significant? Take a listen to
32:52
Speaker 1: our cut one forty nine. Our friends at Inside Edition.
32:55
Speaker 1: Police have already announced they have cleared the young man
32:58
Speaker 1: in the hoodie. Audio engineer Anthony Nelson enhanced the audio
33:02
Speaker 1: for Inside Edition. What do you hear in that instant? So?
33:08
Speaker 1: Was there an argument? If so, what was it about.
33:12
Speaker 1: Kayley's parents say in their opinion, some of the individuals
33:16
Speaker 1: have been cleared too prematurely. Now, according to some reports,
33:22
Speaker 1: the so called hoodie guy was kicked out of fraternity
33:26
Speaker 1: and has left the country. We don't know if that's
33:29
Speaker 1: true or not, but as you all know, evidence a
33:34
Speaker 1: flight leaving the scene of a crime can be you know,
33:40
Speaker 1: evaluated by a jury. But yet police do they not
33:44
Speaker 1: Dave Max say they cleared this guy, and you hear
33:47
Speaker 1: the parents stating some individuals have been cleared too prematurely.
33:53
Speaker 1: What do we know about this guy? We know they
33:56
Speaker 1: cleared him really early. I mean this was something that
33:59
Speaker 1: as soon as that video came out, they were like
34:01
Speaker 1: within twenty four hours saying they'd already talked to everybody
34:04
Speaker 1: there in the video and that you know, the hoodie
34:06
Speaker 1: guy that had drawn everyone's attention was clear. That's what
34:11
Speaker 1: we know about it. All the other information that we
34:13
Speaker 1: could possibly gain about that the hoodie guy is just
34:17
Speaker 1: that it is just a rumor of hoodie guy. We
34:19
Speaker 1: don't really know who he is, what fraternity, who was
34:22
Speaker 1: supposed to be a part of Whether you've been kicked
34:24
Speaker 1: out or left the country. I would not equite getting
34:27
Speaker 1: kicked out of a fraternity with wrongdoing. You can get
34:31
Speaker 1: kicked outifraternity for not paying your d's. Okay, so that
34:36
Speaker 1: is irrelevent to me. Him leaving town quickly, I will
34:39
Speaker 1: say jump in. Well, we'll say, if this is a
34:42
Speaker 1: serial killer that killed these four young university students, they're
34:46
Speaker 1: not the brightest bulbs, and when we talk about them
34:49
Speaker 1: as if they are like, oh, one way in, one
34:52
Speaker 1: way out, you know, surveiling the property. But awesome. Serial
34:56
Speaker 1: killers have something called scofftaphilia, that is a perversion with looking, looking, hunting,
35:02
Speaker 1: like hunting, pecking gathering. They they really fixate on one
35:07
Speaker 1: people or a group of people, and they begin to
35:10
Speaker 1: fuel their sexual and their statistic fantasies through looking. So
35:15
Speaker 1: I would think that somebody who is that perverse and
35:18
Speaker 1: is that preoccupied with killing is not going to rise
35:21
Speaker 1: to the level of being in a fraternity. They're really not.
35:25
Speaker 1: They're going to be in a very low wage menial job.
35:28
Speaker 1: And that's really where I began looking as the police. Well,
35:32
Speaker 1: I hear you're raising dot Jo Basili. But let's not
35:35
Speaker 1: forget ted. Bundy was very likable, that's true. A law student.
35:41
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got the outliers like BTK, bund torture kill.
35:45
Speaker 1: It was a dog catcher. But he also I think,
35:48
Speaker 1: wasn't he a deacon at his church, had a wife
35:50
Speaker 1: and children. I don't know. I think they assimilate Chris mcdonna.
35:54
Speaker 1: What if anything do we know about the food truck guy?
35:57
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think we know a whole bunch
35:59
Speaker 1: of about it, Nancy, And I think the PD early on,
36:04
Speaker 1: you know, when the rumors started around swirling around him,
36:10
Speaker 1: I'm assuming they contact came right away, and I think,
36:16
Speaker 1: you know, proper protocol would have been grab a swab
36:20
Speaker 1: pretty quickly and then you know, through rapid DNA. They
36:26
Speaker 1: may have eliminated him through that process, and that's why
36:30
Speaker 1: they came out so quickly and said, hey, this guy's
36:32
Speaker 1: out of the circle. And that's about all I know
36:35
Speaker 1: about him. The interesting thing, going back to the crime
36:39
Speaker 1: scene for a moment, is in the back of the house,
36:42
Speaker 1: there is a like a cinder block. There are a
36:47
Speaker 1: couple out front, but there's one back by a back
36:49
Speaker 1: window where you know, if you think about the house
36:52
Speaker 1: where it's five women, you know, college students who are
36:57
Speaker 1: staying there, and there's this block that's underneath the window,
37:01
Speaker 1: next to the window that has to screen off of it.
37:05
Speaker 1: And when I was standing back there, immediately what came
37:09
Speaker 1: to my mind, you know, through past experience, was is this,
37:12
Speaker 1: do we have a voyor here somewhere and has this
37:16
Speaker 1: been that fantasy been building? And then you know, he he,
37:22
Speaker 1: you know, executed the these you know, targets as a
37:27
Speaker 1: result of what he's been you know, thinking about for
37:31
Speaker 1: so long. You know, I E, you know, BTK Dennis Rader.
37:35
Speaker 1: Is that in play here? And that was one of
37:37
Speaker 1: the thoughts that I think should be you know, considered
37:41
Speaker 1: as we look closely at that crime scene from the
37:44
Speaker 1: exterior inn not from the interior. Hour Chris mcdonnald, you
37:48
Speaker 1: said a cinder block was below one of the windows
37:52
Speaker 1: that you saw without a screen. Was a cinder block
37:55
Speaker 1: in a position that someone could have stepped on it
37:57
Speaker 1: and gone in the window? Yeah, or they well, not
38:00
Speaker 1: necessarily use it as a tool to get into the window,
38:02
Speaker 1: but necessarily you know, as a seat, you know, or
38:06
Speaker 1: to stant use it to look around the blinds and
38:09
Speaker 1: that type of stuff. Was it in a position they
38:11
Speaker 1: could have used it to boost in or was it
38:14
Speaker 1: further away? No, it's up against the building and you
38:17
Speaker 1: can see it in the video, and wow, that was
38:20
Speaker 1: it was just it didn't look right. Let me let
38:22
Speaker 1: me put it to you that way, okay, Because I
38:24
Speaker 1: had a cinder block right outside my dorm room so
38:27
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have to walk all the way through the lobby.
38:29
Speaker 1: Because it was a long walk to get out of
38:31
Speaker 1: my dorm. I just go out in the window on
38:32
Speaker 1: the cinder block. Don't tell anybody at Valdosta State. But
38:37
Speaker 1: that said, I think I heard who was that jumping
38:40
Speaker 1: It was that U Cheryl or doctor Bethany. I was
38:42
Speaker 1: jumping in about the idea about this perpetrator being a voyeur.
38:46
Speaker 1: That's what I was trying to say about scopophilia and
38:48
Speaker 1: why I mentioned earlier that these were four beautiful young
38:52
Speaker 1: people who had so many pictures of themselves. I mean,
38:54
Speaker 1: these were young people who were relating to each other,
38:57
Speaker 1: engaging with each other, going out and partying and then
39:00
Speaker 1: meeting late at night and having food together. And and
39:03
Speaker 1: I think there mansen something not just about the individual victims,
39:06
Speaker 1: but the intentter relatedness between all of them that was
39:13
Speaker 1: understand I'd like to jump in about something that I
39:16
Speaker 1: often practice as a medical examiner, which is when I
39:19
Speaker 1: go to the scene. You know, we're all human, right,
39:22
Speaker 1: so we have to notice what doesn't fit. I eat
39:25
Speaker 1: the cinder block, like why is it there? You know?
39:28
Speaker 1: I think that's these are like big questions that I have,
39:32
Speaker 1: and my understanding is the back of the house that party.
39:35
Speaker 1: I'm gonna drive you crazy, But I'm gonna mention the
39:37
Speaker 1: dog again. That dog was put in the bedroom that
39:41
Speaker 1: was no longer being used. Who would know that unless
39:45
Speaker 1: it was somebody that had already cased that house and
39:47
Speaker 1: understood that to be true when that dog was possibly
39:51
Speaker 1: led into that vacant bedroom by the killer and the
39:54
Speaker 1: door shut. Most people, if you're gonna lead a dog
39:57
Speaker 1: like that, you do it by their collar. That is
40:00
Speaker 1: the reason. When you take that dog and let somebody
40:03
Speaker 1: come pick it up, you no longer have that collar,
40:05
Speaker 1: which you could have gotten some DNA off of. Possibly. Yeah,
40:09
Speaker 1: that's not driving me, chrisy. I love every single thing
40:12
Speaker 1: that you've just said, But guys, I want to clear
40:14
Speaker 1: something up about the hoodie guy in the last days.
40:17
Speaker 1: Moscow police state that they don't deny the guys left
40:22
Speaker 1: the country. They say, quote, they are aware of the rumors,
40:25
Speaker 1: they did not deny or confirm them. And they also
40:28
Speaker 1: say the person in question continues cooperating. That's all we know.
40:32
Speaker 1: And remember their duty is not to us on the outside.
40:36
Speaker 1: Their duty is to solve this case. Chris mcdonna joining
40:40
Speaker 1: me from the interview room. Chris, is there anything else
40:43
Speaker 1: that's stuck out in your mind other than the cinder block. Well,
40:47
Speaker 1: you know, nanswy One. I was walking around, you know,
40:51
Speaker 1: out on the public street and I was, you know,
40:54
Speaker 1: just kind of taking it all in. I looked down
40:57
Speaker 1: by the trash cans out front and there was a
40:59
Speaker 1: black glove and it was partially covered by snow. Immediately,
41:05
Speaker 1: you know, the red flags went up in my mind.
41:08
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, you know, there's a glove here, and
41:13
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know who it belonged to, how
41:15
Speaker 1: it got there, how long it had been there, but
41:17
Speaker 1: it just another anomaly that just didn't look right. So
41:21
Speaker 1: I got hold of the officer who was sitting there
41:23
Speaker 1: at the scene, and you know, asked him to come over,
41:27
Speaker 1: and I pointed it out to him and he went
41:28
Speaker 1: and in his reaction was wow. And I said, yeah,
41:33
Speaker 1: you know, I'm retired homicide guy. You probably want to
41:36
Speaker 1: know collect that. And he took some pictures of it
41:39
Speaker 1: and said, I'm going to tell our CSI folks, Well,
41:42
Speaker 1: come to find out there is pictures of that glove.
41:46
Speaker 1: Within the first couple of days, you can see it
41:50
Speaker 1: behind the trash cans in the front. And this was
41:54
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks later that you know, I saw it,
41:59
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking to my shelf, Okay, well, how did
42:02
Speaker 1: this thing get here? Is the you know, it's the suspect,
42:06
Speaker 1: exist even belonged to the suspect, doesn't belonged to a neighbor,
42:09
Speaker 1: doesn't belong to one of the victims. I mean, we
42:11
Speaker 1: don't know, but I thought it was an anomaly that
42:15
Speaker 1: you know, just again did not look right. Man, You're
42:18
Speaker 1: giving me a bad feeling. Chris mcdonne, as if I
42:20
Speaker 1: didn't already have one with four dead bodies. Guys. The
42:24
Speaker 1: tipline two zero eight eight eight three seven one eight
42:28
Speaker 1: zero repeat two zero eight eight eight three seven one
42:33
Speaker 1: eight zero. Also, the Feds have set up a video
42:39
Speaker 1: tip line, so to speak, where you can upload any
42:44
Speaker 1: video or photos, your ring, doorbell, your cell phone, you're
42:47
Speaker 1: anything that may help them, which was pretty brilliant at
42:53
Speaker 1: FBI dot govs slash Moscow, Idaho, FBI dot com slash
43:00
Speaker 1: Let's go Idaho, We pray for justice. Nancy Grace Crimes
43:06
Speaker 1: story signing off goodbye for