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Transcript

Paul Washer And The Preacher · The Reformatory

0:00
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you got for me?
0:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
0:32
[SPEAKER_02]: As long as I'm not for me, we could have had the benediction right there, that was so good.
0:36
[SPEAKER_06]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the reformatory, the podcast for the local church, and by the local church, and we are your local churchman.
0:42
[SPEAKER_06]: My name is Josh, and as always I'm here with the man that need us no introduction.
0:48
[SPEAKER_06]: We'll introduce him.
0:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Anyway, because this is an audio medium primarily.
0:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Unless you head on over to YouTube where you can watch this as well as listen to it.
0:57
[SPEAKER_06]: The Captain, Jack Barry, Captain, how are you this morning?
1:01
[SPEAKER_05]: It's good we're this afternoon, I suppose it's good to see you sitting this afternoon.
1:04
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I have been hearing rumors that Captain America is returning to the Marvel Universe.
1:10
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, really.
1:11
[SPEAKER_05]: And okay.
1:13
[SPEAKER_05]: Dooms in doomsday.
1:14
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
1:15
[SPEAKER_05]: There's a bunch of stuff out there.
1:16
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's fake.
1:18
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I don't think it's real.
1:19
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, anyway Interesting stuff coming up this week with uh, I guess the first trailers are gonna drop this week for the new Avengers movie having old RDJ as Dr. Doom.
1:30
[SPEAKER_05]: So
1:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, okay, interesting.
1:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Sorry to start off on a nerd talk while our whole No, it's all good to stay is literally getting flooded right?
1:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, it's been a rough week for Washington.
1:46
[SPEAKER_06]: For those that were aware, Washington got hit with some floods this past week.
1:54
[SPEAKER_06]: resulted in I mean our church not being able to meet which was frustrating and a lot of people homeless a lot of homes destroyed and now they're talking about a storm warning the wind out there is reaching at least for Washington standards some some some some some some some pretty substantial
2:22
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, if only a half of one goes out this week, then, you know, so be it.
2:26
[SPEAKER_06]: But yeah, it's been a it's been a rough, been a rough week for Washington.
2:31
[SPEAKER_06]: We think you all for, uh, that have been praying, uh, got some messages from some folks saying that they prayed for, uh, our church specifically, uh, uh, on, on, on their Lord's Day, which was,
2:43
[SPEAKER_06]: very encouraging.
2:44
[SPEAKER_06]: I love you.
2:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Love seeing the body at work, even when you've never met people.
2:49
[SPEAKER_06]: That's that's that's pretty cool But Jack and my friend.
2:52
[SPEAKER_06]: We've got a lot to talk about today.
2:54
[SPEAKER_06]: We've got a lot to get through Interesting topic today.
2:57
[SPEAKER_06]: I coming I mean reformatory a classic reformatory.
3:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Let's let's talk about it.
3:02
[SPEAKER_06]: You know Two three weeks after everyone else is talked about it, right?
3:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Classic reformatory late to the party as always, but we're here
3:12
[SPEAKER_06]: We're here, and we're going to talk about some stuff, but Jack, as always before we get to our topic, let's get to everyone's favorite segment, don't forget to eat your instant grams.
3:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And no, the time you've all been waiting for, no, home and dairy podcasts presents, don't forget to eat your instant grams with your host, Josh Loftus, on Jack Mary.
3:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And remember, kids, it's not heresy if you're a level hard enough.
3:41
[SPEAKER_06]: This is, don't forget to eat your Instagrams and remember, kids, it's not here, see if you believe it hard enough.
3:45
[SPEAKER_06]: That's how it works.
3:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Jack, that's definitely seems to be how it works these days.
3:51
[SPEAKER_06]: And I've got some some some real great ones for you today, man.
3:56
[SPEAKER_06]: We're going to hit you first.
3:59
[SPEAKER_06]: with this poor, poor guy, really, you know what?
4:05
[SPEAKER_06]: No, I'm saving that one for the second, because that's gonna be a good transition into our main topic.
4:09
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm hitting you with the carpenters, okay?
4:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Not the band, okay.
4:14
[SPEAKER_06]: But the pastor, and I'm using, for those listening only, I'm using air quotes here, the pastor duo.
4:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Rob and I believe his wife's name is hope.
4:25
[SPEAKER_06]: I think I could be wrong carpenter But this is a little thanksgiving message that they put out to their folks.
4:34
[SPEAKER_06]: I think a couple weeks ago and you know There's nothing screams Thanksgiving to me like some good old-fashioned local church erotica.
4:45
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay Have a watch
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanksgiving to you, happy Thanksgiving to you.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Why am I singing a Christmas song for Thanksgiving because I'm already decorated for Christmas, but we just wanted to come and say, have an amazing Thanksgiving with your friends, with your family.
5:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you're by yourself, there's always something to be thankful for.
5:10
[SPEAKER_04]: You didn't let me go.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm asking you now, but get over here.
5:14
[SPEAKER_04]: What?
5:17
[SPEAKER_04]: Happy Thanksgiving.
5:20
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay dude, he looks like Montana and that woman looks like Idaho.
5:26
[SPEAKER_05]: He is just absolutely being a great for right now.
5:29
[SPEAKER_06]: He's going full Joe Biden on that lady dude, he's going full.
5:35
[SPEAKER_06]: He's like he's he's he's he's Joe Biden and she's a 14 year old girl dude.
5:42
[SPEAKER_06]: all up in her business.
5:43
[SPEAKER_06]: So for those who are listening to this only, it's a video of this husband and wife duo announcing their Thanksgiving stuff, right?
5:54
[SPEAKER_06]: And the wife is in the front making doing most of the talking, the announcements.
5:59
[SPEAKER_06]: And as she is speaking throughout the entire time,
6:07
[SPEAKER_06]: like and I like I'm not kidding full Joe Biden.
6:11
[SPEAKER_06]: He's like sniffing her neck full month.
6:14
[SPEAKER_06]: He's like dude he is he is all up in her business.
6:17
[SPEAKER_06]: It is really awkward.
6:19
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.
6:20
[SPEAKER_06]: Well dude he's like it's like it's one of those things where it's like
6:24
[SPEAKER_06]: You know the cameras on right like you two need to go find yourselves a little a little private area Yeah, go so you know and like here's here's the thing like in the privacy your own home Right in the kitchen, you know your wife's cooking or something come up behind your wife You want to be flirty.
6:39
[SPEAKER_06]: I love that's great dude right not for a church announcement video Lord
6:43
[SPEAKER_06]: Can we please keep this away from the from the from the church Facebook?
6:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right?
6:49
[SPEAKER_06]: This does not belong on there.
6:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Anyway Real cringy stuff not great not a great look.
6:56
[SPEAKER_06]: You know I see this
6:58
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, on the church's Instagram, I'm, I'm, I'm probably not showing up because I'm at this point I'm thinking like, you know, I don't want him doing this to me.
7:06
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, you know, like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to be anywhere near whatever this is.
7:11
[SPEAKER_06]: So Jack, I got one more for you, my friend.
7:14
[SPEAKER_06]: This poor dude.
7:17
[SPEAKER_06]: It's poor dude, tries to start the morning service off with some light jokes, and just makes some classic, classic blunders, classic blunders.
7:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Here you go.
7:29
[SPEAKER_03]: How about our all-male worship team?
7:32
[SPEAKER_03]: How about it?
7:33
[SPEAKER_03]: Was that nice?
7:33
[SPEAKER_03]: So what?
7:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I was thinking, I was like the power of God and feels so much more close and present.
7:40
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought, what's the difference?
7:41
[SPEAKER_03]: And I thought, we got all these women off the stage.
7:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And that,
7:45
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just kidding.
7:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just gonna.
7:48
[SPEAKER_03]: My mom is booing me.
7:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Who's the last time last time I got booed by his mother.
7:53
[SPEAKER_03]: This is amazing.
7:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just kidding, ladies.
7:56
[SPEAKER_03]: We will fight for women in ministry until the day that I die.
8:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Just a joke.
8:02
[SPEAKER_03]: Just a joke.
8:04
[SPEAKER_05]: That was that was a nervous laugh because he knows that.
8:07
[SPEAKER_05]: That's dying.
8:08
[SPEAKER_05]: That's dying.
8:09
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
8:10
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, he's getting fascinated.
8:11
[SPEAKER_06]: He realized that's.
8:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Dude, like he kept digging.
8:15
[SPEAKER_06]: He like he realized I dug a massive pit.
8:19
[SPEAKER_06]: I fell in the pit and you should have just covered yourself over.
8:24
[SPEAKER_06]: But he kept you kept going and the first joke didn't land, right?
8:29
[SPEAKER_06]: It should have stopped there, don't double down, right?
8:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Don't double down on the joke that didn't work because it's just, it's never a good strategy.
8:38
[SPEAKER_06]: So, Jack and my friend, that is, that is a great example.
8:43
[SPEAKER_06]: of how not to engage in a sermon, right?
8:45
[SPEAKER_06]: And how not to engage in preaching, right?
8:48
[SPEAKER_06]: That's not something that's not really a way that it should be done, right?
8:54
[SPEAKER_06]: The problem is, Jack, there are a lot of people out there these days, lots of people who got a lot of opinions on what good preaching is, what bad preaching is,
9:08
[SPEAKER_06]: uh... what preaching should entail what it shouldn't entail right and uh... we're gonna talk about that a little bit today we're talking about preaching uh... and i'm not not so much you know what is it wise is it that it's important we've done that before but it's going to set the stage okay and this this all kind of happened while i was on vacation so a video circulated and we're going to play the video here in a second to provide some context
9:37
[SPEAKER_06]: of preacher Paul Washer, I would say, kind of taking to task, if you will, preachers today, modern day preachers and churches.
9:53
[SPEAKER_06]: I would say kind of, you know, being a little rough with them in terms of, in terms of some of the, uh, some of the practices of modern preachers today, and how kind of disappointed he is in in that, and I know some of you might be saying, well, Paul Washers disappointed in something.
10:12
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, what do you, I did not see that coming, right?
10:15
[SPEAKER_06]: I know, I know.
10:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Stick with me levity levity levity look look we like to have fun here on the podcast Okay Paul washers a faithful brother.
10:26
[SPEAKER_06]: He's a brother in Christ, but you know we got to be able to We got to be able to take as well as we give right and Paul washers gives a lot So let's just be very clear.
10:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, Paul washer is a great he he gives a lot So you know every once in a while, you know when you give that much you got to be able to take a little back
10:44
[SPEAKER_06]: So our goal with this podcast is to be balanced because I do think that there's some things in this video that he says that I think is actually very true and it actually It actually Coinsides with a lot of points that Jack and I have made on the podcast before
11:00
[SPEAKER_06]: But again, as often happens with a Mr. washer, I think some things get taken too far.
11:10
[SPEAKER_06]: And we begin to kind of place the weight and legitimacy, if you will, on things that we probably shouldn't.
11:19
[SPEAKER_06]: So we're going to play the video.
11:20
[SPEAKER_06]: This is what kind of made its rounds around the social media.
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[SPEAKER_06]: A lot of people had some hot takes.
11:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Most were bad, so we're really, really good.
11:29
[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to try to provide some some some of our thoughts on this, but let's let's play the video first Let's get some context and then we're going to we're going to dive into it here There's one thing that I'm see over and over missing in all these expositors When I come to church, I don't want to hear a new testament class.
11:51
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to hear preaching
11:54
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to see a man who has life and death painted on his face.
12:01
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to have the great matters of eternity set before me.
12:09
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to be urged.
12:10
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to be begged.
12:11
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to be pleaded with because the subject matter is worthy of it.
12:16
[SPEAKER_04]: And this was the apostle Paul.
12:18
[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't just lay truth before people and then walk off the platform, patting himself on the back because he could get a good job expositing a text.
12:27
[SPEAKER_04]: No, there should be no contentment in the preacher unless God is glorified and men and women are moved.
12:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, all right, so that's the clip and boy did that cause some drama jack.
12:43
[SPEAKER_06]: Uh, that, uh, that caused, that caused an uproar, uh, which is, I mean, you know, it's Twitter.
12:51
[SPEAKER_06]: What are you going to do, right?
12:52
[SPEAKER_06]: If you don't have something to be mad about, why are you on the site?
12:54
[SPEAKER_06]: I guess it's kind of the kind of the idea, but, um, so I've, I've definitely got some thoughts on that, uh, Jack, I want to throw that over to you first.
13:02
[SPEAKER_06]: What's your initial reaction to that video?
13:05
[SPEAKER_06]: Uh, I know that you saw that going around just as I did a couple of weeks ago.
13:08
[SPEAKER_06]: It made it like I said, it made its rounds.
13:11
[SPEAKER_06]: And we heard a lot of reactions, a lot of a lot of hot takes with that.
13:16
[SPEAKER_06]: I'd love to hear your thoughts first.
13:17
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I didn't see it as much to be quite honest.
13:20
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know what the algorithm was doing on my end, but I think that was like.
13:23
[SPEAKER_05]: the second or third time I've seen that clip.
13:27
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean here's a thing like he has points of like yes like preaching is not you know we talk about this if you go to a simian trust workshop
13:40
[SPEAKER_05]: when you talk about preaching, go to a semi-interest workshop if you're a pastor or an up-and-coming preacher, and you will get wrecked.
13:48
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
13:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
13:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
13:49
[SPEAKER_05]: You will, because there's times where, you know, we talk about preaching where you don't want to be, you don't want to be a person who's going there in like a museum history, like tour guide.
14:03
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
14:03
[SPEAKER_05]: You're not showing people around the Bible.
14:06
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
14:06
[SPEAKER_05]: You don't, you don't preach your prep as we've said before, right?
14:10
[SPEAKER_05]: So, but you are trying to get and hone down to what the author's original intent of that text was, and the overall span of the book or the epistle or anything, right?
14:24
[SPEAKER_05]: And so he has a point to some degree where you're not, okay, you're not doing a New Testament class, okay?
14:31
[SPEAKER_05]: when he's you know, I want to be moved.
14:35
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to do this.
14:36
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to be pleaded with.
14:37
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to have this.
14:38
[SPEAKER_05]: I want to have that.
14:39
[SPEAKER_05]: I want it's like listen.
14:42
[SPEAKER_05]: To be quite honest, maybe it's because I'm in the Pacific Northwest.
14:47
[SPEAKER_05]: But the fact of the matter is like
14:49
[SPEAKER_05]: my pastors can go up on stage and be as real and authentic and I really don't have any expectations other than I know they're going to preach to me.
14:59
[SPEAKER_05]: I know they're going to share what the word says and that's going to lead to something.
15:06
[SPEAKER_05]: I honestly like I feel like Paul Washer is just
15:10
[SPEAKER_05]: having a lot of just like expectations when to me as a member and a local church, I know the Holy Spirit's going to move through my pastors.
15:20
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just waiting for that to unfold.
15:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
15:23
[SPEAKER_05]: So I know their hearts and I know what they want.
15:25
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like, I'm not here to put and make them performative.
15:30
[SPEAKER_05]: And I feel like there's a level of performative and emotionality that I think
15:36
[SPEAKER_05]: pastures too much that like listen a lot of guys are trying to do their best every Sunday going up there preaching what they got preaching their hearts out and to Paul washer that's not going to be enough sure so to me it's just like
15:58
[SPEAKER_05]: kind of a break dude kind of a break.
16:00
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
16:01
[SPEAKER_05]: Because the local church pastor is not going to be a YouTube sensation to be quite honest.
16:07
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
16:08
[SPEAKER_05]: He's just going to know his local church and what's best for them.
16:11
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
16:11
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.
16:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
16:14
[SPEAKER_06]: No, I think that's a good place to start.
16:20
[SPEAKER_06]: I think
16:22
[SPEAKER_06]: I'll say this and I am I am open to being corrected, but I did some research before before this.
16:29
[SPEAKER_06]: I do not believe Paul Washer is a pastor anywhere.
16:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I know he runs up heart crime ministries.
16:38
[SPEAKER_06]: He's on the preaching circuit, all that good stuff.
16:42
[SPEAKER_06]: But
16:43
[SPEAKER_06]: I do not believe that he has been called to the pastor by a local church.
16:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Again, if you're listening to this and I'm wrong, my, my research is wrong.
16:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Please let me know my point still stands with what am I about to say I find it difficult like one of my difficulties with Paul Walker and again he's a brother I know he loves Jesus right he does some great work with heart cry that I think is much needed and and very good I know he's encouraged many many people
17:17
[SPEAKER_06]: I hear a lot of criticisms from Paul Washer or coming from Paul Washer, most of the time.
17:27
[SPEAKER_06]: And most of the time those criticisms are leveled against pastors or Christians that are struggling in their faithfulness.
17:37
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
17:37
[SPEAKER_06]: Now.
17:39
[SPEAKER_06]: I do believe that there is a time where we have to stay hard things, right?
17:44
[SPEAKER_06]: And the truths of Scripture need to hit us full in the face, and we need to be confronted with our lack of zeal, our lack of compassion, our lack of love, whatever it is, the Scriptures do that.
18:06
[SPEAKER_06]: part of my, the heart, the, again, I don't want to speak ill, but part of the hard time that I have with washer and guys, the kind of, kind of fawn over him, is that they, it seems like they'll only be encouraged if they're being beaten.
18:27
[SPEAKER_05]: pretty pretty much.
18:29
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's like it's like their dogs that have been beaten so much.
18:33
[SPEAKER_06]: They think they deserve it.
18:34
[SPEAKER_06]: And that's the only way that they feel like, you know, that's only way they feel something, right?
18:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Is if it's coming from a place of negativity and critique versus perhaps encouragement and and lifting up, right?
18:50
[SPEAKER_06]: And again, there's room for both.
18:52
[SPEAKER_06]: We have to do both.
18:56
[SPEAKER_06]: We're down the middle, law and gospel.
18:57
[SPEAKER_06]: We need both, right?
19:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Part of my problem with this though, is that I think, well, let's start with the things that I agree with.
19:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Because there are things in here that I agree with.
19:10
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm actually gonna go through, let's do this.
19:12
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm gonna pull this up again.
19:14
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm gonna go through it and kind of talk about it as we move here, okay?
19:20
[SPEAKER_04]: There's one thing that I see over and over missing in all these expositors.
19:27
[SPEAKER_04]: When I come to church, I don't want to hear a new testament class.
19:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so right there, that is something that we've talked about before that I do, by and large, I agree with, right?
19:39
[SPEAKER_06]: Preaching, and again, this is a distinction we make on the reformatory that I know a lot of guys don't agree with, that's totally fine.
19:45
[SPEAKER_06]: But,
19:46
[SPEAKER_06]: I think it aids in the point here.
19:48
[SPEAKER_06]: I do believe that there is a difference, at least in the methodology and intent of teaching versus preaching.
19:55
[SPEAKER_06]: I think it involves different skills.
19:58
[SPEAKER_06]: I think it has a different intent, right?
20:01
[SPEAKER_06]: I think it's presented differently.
20:02
[SPEAKER_06]: I do think that they are different.
20:05
[SPEAKER_06]: I think they're distinct.
20:07
[SPEAKER_06]: I think they flow into each other.
20:09
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm not going to say that they don't
20:10
[SPEAKER_06]: they don't fall into each other as you're engaging with them.
20:15
[SPEAKER_06]: But I do think that they are different.
20:16
[SPEAKER_06]: And what he's actually saying here, I actually agree with is I think too many guys do step behind the pulpit with the intent to simply inform and not to proclaim exactly or lecture and not to proclaim, right?
20:40
[SPEAKER_06]: but it's not just to inform, it's not just a lecture, it's not just to give you some knowledge so that you can pass the exam at the end of the day.
20:48
[SPEAKER_06]: It's to proclaim the Excellencies of Jesus Christ, proclaim our need for the gospel, and proclaim how Christ has perfectly met that need.
20:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Right?
20:57
[SPEAKER_06]: And you do that wherever you are in the text, where in the Bible am I preaching from?
21:03
[SPEAKER_06]: Where is the gospel here?
21:04
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to proclaim this, right?
21:06
[SPEAKER_06]: And that's full of law.
21:08
[SPEAKER_06]: and gospel because we need both, right?
21:11
[SPEAKER_06]: It's distinct, but both good.
21:13
[SPEAKER_06]: So that's what preaching is, right?
21:16
[SPEAKER_06]: And tell me, I agree with him here is, is, yeah, some guys just preach their prep, right?
21:22
[SPEAKER_06]: They take the historical context and the ethereal intent and the Greek work and the Hebrew work and the commentary work.
21:30
[SPEAKER_06]: And that's what they preach.
21:32
[SPEAKER_06]: I can tell you, and I've sat in on these, I have sat in on these, Jack, where I have been able to listen to a guy preaching, go to the MacArthur commentary, and it's almost word for word, right, that's out of bounds.
21:51
[SPEAKER_06]: Can't we can't be doing that right?
21:53
[SPEAKER_06]: That's not preaching.
21:55
[SPEAKER_06]: That's not what your people need and that's not healthy for you or for them Okay, it's not that you can't use them or utilize them, but you don't preach your prep You preach the word of God.
22:04
[SPEAKER_06]: You preach to your people and you preach Christ, right?
22:08
[SPEAKER_06]: So I agree.
22:09
[SPEAKER_06]: I agree with that so far so good It shouldn't be a class It should be a proclamation right and we've talked about that at Nazim anything to add to that before I I move on to the video.
22:19
[SPEAKER_06]: No, okay
22:21
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to hear preaching, I want to see a man who has life and death painted on his face.
22:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Here's where it starts to get a little wonky for me, and again, I want to be careful because I want to be nuanced here because I do think there's two sides to this.
22:44
[SPEAKER_06]: So I'm going to say this and I'll throw it over to you.
22:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Jack, I don't believe preaching should be boring.
22:49
[SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
22:49
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't believe it should be.
22:51
[SPEAKER_06]: I believe that our people should hear the excitement.
22:56
[SPEAKER_06]: the joy and the wonder of what we are preaching in how we preach.
23:02
[SPEAKER_06]: If you are preaching the gospel and it is a humdrum, eorish, thanks for noticing, thanks for being here.
23:11
[SPEAKER_06]: It's open our bibles to the book of Edith and it's in your lolling people, just like, it's probably not for you, right?
23:20
[SPEAKER_06]: I think that's probably not the role that you should
23:25
[SPEAKER_06]: So, I don't think preaching should be boring, but I do think we need to have some grace in what we constitute good preaching.
23:35
[SPEAKER_06]: When he says, I wanna see a man who has life and death painted on his face.
23:41
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't really know what that means, and if I can be honest, I see more death on washers face than life because if he's going to make the distinction of like we preach life when there's life and death when there's death, right?
23:57
[SPEAKER_06]: It's these types of things that I see the most from wash, I think there's kind of a lack of balance with these guys
24:11
[SPEAKER_06]: I think you're preaching a lot of death, right?
24:13
[SPEAKER_06]: So I want to make that distinction that I don't think preaching should be boring.
24:17
[SPEAKER_06]: I think we should strive to be good public speakers and to improve on our public speaking and our presentation.
24:23
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't think that that's a bad thing and I think that you can do that in a way that's not superficial and secret sensitive your thoughts.
24:30
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I have no clue what he means by I want to see that it's like, okay, like, who died, made you the Pope.
24:40
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh boy, here we go.
24:42
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, let's be honest about this.
24:43
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like, gonna get some trouble, Jack.
24:46
[SPEAKER_05]: There is no, there is no standard for the delivery of the church.
24:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and that's a good point.
24:52
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's like, okay, like, those are, I mean, whatever Paul washer wants in a preacher.
24:58
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, that's up to him, but don't supersede that and start to make that start to make your preferences, the Lord and the conscience over other people's desires to just hear the word.
25:12
[SPEAKER_05]: Hear the word and hear where their pastors are taking them on that journey in the text.
25:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
25:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, and that's a great point like, you know, this again, like I agree with washer that I think I think what he's trying to say is like we should strive not to be boring right I think I think that's I'm you know, I want to be gracious in my interpretation or of what he's I think he's saying.
25:34
[SPEAKER_06]: But we do got to realize that when you set that standard, it really is subjective.
25:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
25:42
[SPEAKER_06]: What's boring to one person is not going to be boring to another.
25:45
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
25:47
[SPEAKER_06]: And washer, I think, inadvertently with these statements, whether he realizes that or not, I think he sets himself and his thoughts on what a preacher is and should be as the standard for what he is preaching.
26:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, when he says, I want to see a man who has life and death painted on this face, I want to hear preaching, not a new testament class.
26:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Like he has an idea in his head what that is.
26:10
[SPEAKER_06]: And that's probably different than what I have in mind.
26:13
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
26:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
26:14
[SPEAKER_06]: So again, we have to be careful when we're making these types of statements, because inadvertently, what that ends up doing is it kind of just sets yourself up as the standard.
26:24
[SPEAKER_06]: Because obviously, I think Paul Washer would say that he falls into that.
26:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
26:30
[SPEAKER_06]: If that's the standard, I would hope that he thinks he meets his own standard.
26:34
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
26:34
[SPEAKER_06]: So, you know, is Paul that is is is is washer the standard for what we should be preaching, right?
26:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Is MacArthur is, you know, again, filling filling the gaps here, right?
26:46
[SPEAKER_06]: It's a slippery slope.
26:47
[SPEAKER_06]: It's an unhelpful argument.
26:48
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, and you're dealing in subjective territory.
26:52
[SPEAKER_06]: I think that's a really difficult part about
26:55
[SPEAKER_06]: these types of statements is it's purely subjective, let's, let's continue here.
27:02
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to have the great matters of eternity set before me.
27:06
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to be urged.
27:10
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to be begged.
27:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to be pleaded with because the subject matter is worthy of it.
27:18
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, I mean, again, not in and of itself a bad thing, but you, like, what does that look like?
27:24
[SPEAKER_06]: And what does that mean?
27:25
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
27:25
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, I mean, sometimes you're in the, you know, in the depths of, you know, due to Rotimate, right?
27:30
[SPEAKER_06]: And it's just, again, I'm going to find Christ in this.
27:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
27:34
[SPEAKER_06]: But.
27:35
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, it's not like this isn't something where you're going to have, you know, it's not an easy text to preach right and I think I think that's part of the problem that I have with guys like this who might end again like based on my research who don't have the duty of preaching every week.
27:54
[SPEAKER_06]: weekend a week out.
27:56
[SPEAKER_06]: It's really easy to take this stance when like you go to conferences and speaking engagements.
28:02
[SPEAKER_06]: And by and large, you get to kind of pick like the ribeye stakes of verses to preach.
28:08
[SPEAKER_05]: True.
28:08
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, like, you know, like not every person gets the chance to pick their their passages.
28:17
[SPEAKER_06]: where it, like, it really creates really convicting, right?
28:20
[SPEAKER_06]: It's full of gospel saturated truth.
28:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes you're working through an Old Testament class, you know, an Old Testament book, and it's, you know, like, we're in the, we're in the bals of it right now.
28:30
[SPEAKER_05]: You know what I'm saying?
28:31
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's just trying to try doing that with Ecclesiastes.
28:34
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, yeah, probably not.
28:35
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, we just went through it.
28:36
[SPEAKER_05]: And I'll tell you what, like, it's hard because there's a lot of negativity in Ecclesiastes.
28:42
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
28:42
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
28:43
[SPEAKER_05]: And there's a lot of,
28:45
[SPEAKER_05]: you know, life is temporary, like, you know, trying to go through it.
28:50
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like, so yeah, it's like, on one sense of it, it's like, yeah, the subject matter is worthy of it, but it's like, I don't need my pastor to plead with me.
29:02
[SPEAKER_05]: I just need him to share and to preach with the Holy Spirit has put on his heart and prepared him for, for the Lord's Day.
29:10
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
29:11
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's going to look
29:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, no, no.
29:15
[SPEAKER_06]: It is.
29:15
[SPEAKER_06]: It is.
29:16
[SPEAKER_06]: And it's going to look different depending on the congregation, right?
29:19
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, because then a good pastor preaches knowing his congregation.
29:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, right?
29:23
[SPEAKER_06]: So that that factors in.
29:25
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think, yeah, the like, you know, wanting to be pleaded with and begged and, you know, all of these things, I understand what he's saying.
29:34
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think that's a little theatrical, though.
29:37
[SPEAKER_05]: It in the talk.
29:39
[SPEAKER_06]: It borderlines on it.
29:41
[SPEAKER_06]: It does.
29:41
[SPEAKER_06]: I would say it borderlines, and this is gonna like, well, we'll let the rest of the video play.
29:47
[SPEAKER_06]: I think emotionalism is something that Paul Washer tends to struggle with in regards to, like, if it is void of emotion, if the, if the certain emotions are not there, then the,
30:08
[SPEAKER_06]: the authenticity is called into question, right?
30:14
[SPEAKER_06]: I say that, let's hear the rest of the video and you'll see what I mean.
30:21
[SPEAKER_04]: And this was the apostle Paul.
30:23
[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't just lay truth before people and then walk off the platform, patting himself on the back because he get a good job expositing a text.
30:32
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I think we need to pat our pastures on the back a little more, honestly.
30:35
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I don't have, I don't have any pastors that I know who are trying to pat each other or pat themselves on the back because he exposited the text correctly.
30:45
[SPEAKER_05]: That's not even their goal.
30:47
[SPEAKER_06]: No, no, no, no, no.
30:49
[SPEAKER_06]: So I feel like this is the goal isn't fresh.
30:51
[SPEAKER_06]: The goal isn't to get, you know, paths on the back.
30:54
[SPEAKER_06]: But my point is like, again, it's an offshoot point.
30:59
[SPEAKER_06]: I do think we shouldn't encourage our pastors more.
31:01
[SPEAKER_06]: If they preach an encouraging sermon, I think we should let the most encouraging.
31:04
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think you can do that in a way that's not flatter, like not being flattering, right?
31:10
[SPEAKER_06]: And not boosting their ego.
31:12
[SPEAKER_06]: But, you know, if your pastor preached something,
31:16
[SPEAKER_06]: And it was encouraging to you, you should let him know that because he worked hard on that, right?
31:19
[SPEAKER_06]: And the Lord used him as the means to encourage you, uh, we should we should acknowledge that.
31:24
[SPEAKER_06]: I think that's a good thing.
31:25
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, that's just an offshoot, an offshoot comment, but no, there should be no contentment in the preacher unless God is glorified and men and women are moved.
31:36
[SPEAKER_06]: So that right there.
31:39
[SPEAKER_06]: there should be no contentment in the preacher until God has glorified and men and women are moved.
31:47
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
31:48
[SPEAKER_06]: I think he added too much to that sense.
31:52
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
31:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
31:54
[SPEAKER_06]: I think the sentence should have stopped at there should be no contentment in the preacher until God has glorified.
31:58
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
31:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
31:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Because that I agree with 100%.
32:02
[SPEAKER_06]: The problem with that addendum that he adds and men and women are moved.
32:07
[SPEAKER_06]: And I don't think he's trying to do this, but you are inadvertently placing the onus of authenticity on whether or not you're preaching, created an emotional response in your people.
32:23
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
32:24
[SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes it just doesn't.
32:27
[SPEAKER_06]: Right?
32:27
[SPEAKER_06]: Here's the thing.
32:29
[SPEAKER_06]: And this isn't calling anybody.
32:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, this is just a reality.
32:32
[SPEAKER_06]: My particular church that I serve at.
32:36
[SPEAKER_06]: they are, they are not emotional people, you know, they are not, they are not
32:48
[SPEAKER_06]: ones to give a lot of amen's or put the hands in the air or you know you don't get a lot of feedback there's not there's not a lot of of moving going on at least outwardly right it's not a bad thing it's just the way that God wired these people right there's other churches where you you you see the evidence of that moving a lot more in the in the outward
33:18
[SPEAKER_06]: The problem with this standard is that, again, you are creating a subjective standard of what it means to be moved, what it looks like to be moved.
33:28
[SPEAKER_06]: And if your preaching does not succeed in that in your people, then you should not be content in your preaching.
33:36
[SPEAKER_06]: I think that goes too far.
33:38
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
33:39
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think it places a weight on the pastor.
33:47
[SPEAKER_06]: that the Holy Spirit is the only one that can carry.
33:52
[SPEAKER_06]: Because it's the Holy Spirit that moves.
33:54
[SPEAKER_06]: It's the Holy Spirit that convicts.
33:57
[SPEAKER_06]: It's the Holy Spirit that takes the words preached and applies them to the heart.
34:04
[SPEAKER_06]: It's the Holy Spirit that takes the sword of the Word of God and pierces the heart.
34:12
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
34:12
[SPEAKER_06]: That's the Spirit's job.
34:15
[SPEAKER_06]: And the spirit is able to do that with passionate preaching, coming from an excellent communicator, or the pastor that is opening his Bible and doing his best with the text, that the spirit is capable.
34:35
[SPEAKER_06]: of moving and applying that same word in both instances, and it is not dependent upon the preacher.
34:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and I think when we set this standard that Paul Washer is setting or creating an unrealistic expectation for preachers that they have to fit a certain mold, preachers, certain way,
34:56
[SPEAKER_06]: or else their people are not going to be moved to the way that they want them to be moved and you forget that it's the Holy Spirit that does the moving, not the preacher.
35:06
[SPEAKER_06]: You have to be faithful in preaching the Word of God and be content with the results of that landing in the hands of God the Spirit.
35:16
[SPEAKER_06]: And clips like this, I think create, again, I want to
35:26
[SPEAKER_06]: create a standard that is unmetable because we are not God.
35:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Your thoughts.
35:33
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
35:34
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, yeah, he should, he should end that.
35:39
[SPEAKER_05]: off without saying, kind of moving of the people, because yeah, you're starting to say that you're preaching is just as effective as the Holy Spirit's working in people.
35:50
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's not.
35:52
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not.
35:53
[SPEAKER_05]: It has a degree of it, but you're relying on the Spirit, too,
35:58
[SPEAKER_05]: use your words and preaching to effectively hopefully point people to Christ.
36:06
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
36:06
[SPEAKER_05]: And that can only be done through God's means, not your words, but through God's means of doing that.
36:13
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, I feel like for the amount of stuff that Paul Washer talks about, when we talk about this, we talk about him saying, you know, you can't make, you can't do things, carnal or do all these other things.
36:26
[SPEAKER_05]: He's kind of focusing on carnal ways of moving people in some senses.
36:31
[SPEAKER_05]: It is.
36:31
[SPEAKER_06]: And is it like almost charismatic emotionalism that you know, and again, I don't like he's not that guy, but no, we got to be really careful because it does it does sound like that and that you know people got to be moved man preaching should move you and if you're not moving your people you're not preaching right like that's that's effectively what's being said and that's a very charismatic way of looking at and explaining the point of preaching.
36:58
[SPEAKER_05]: And I can say this I don't I don't need to have somebody say you're preaching needs to move people in order for people to be moved by your preaching.
37:08
[SPEAKER_05]: Like preachers don't have to come off like all like they're going to move people in order to move people to be quite honest.
37:17
[SPEAKER_05]: like I have had my pastors who they would say at best they are mediocre pastors and mediocre preachers, but I think that they are really good expositors at the end of the day.
37:28
[SPEAKER_05]: They have assembled sermons and have preached and have moved me where honestly like I didn't think it was going to go that way.
37:39
[SPEAKER_05]: That's sermon.
37:40
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, for sure.
37:42
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I don't I don't have that expectation.
37:45
[SPEAKER_05]: I have the expectation knowing that the Lord's using them in my life and that preaching is a somewhat means of grace in which it's pointing me towards Jesus and pointing me towards the gospel every single Lord's day.
38:02
[SPEAKER_05]: So I don't need to have somebody critique my pastor who has that in the back of
38:07
[SPEAKER_05]: when I know it's going to happen every Sunday.
38:10
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
38:10
[SPEAKER_06]: So yeah.
38:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
38:11
[SPEAKER_06]: No, I agree, Matt.
38:12
[SPEAKER_06]: I agree.
38:13
[SPEAKER_06]: And I think yeah, I think at the end of the day, like those those who are tasked with preaching, they should again, preaching as a skill, right?
38:21
[SPEAKER_06]: And we should seek to develop that just like any other skill.
38:24
[SPEAKER_06]: You should seek to be engaging.
38:26
[SPEAKER_06]: You should seek to be passionate.
38:27
[SPEAKER_06]: You should seek to be a good communicator because that's that's a good thing to do.
38:32
[SPEAKER_06]: You should care about the craft.
38:34
[SPEAKER_06]: Right?
38:34
[SPEAKER_06]: If it's a trade, you know, if you think about it like a trade, you should be, you should be good at it.
38:39
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
38:40
[SPEAKER_06]: I do want a journeyman preacher up there preaching, you know, because they're, they're good at it.
38:46
[SPEAKER_06]: They're season.
38:47
[SPEAKER_06]: They take time to hone the skill, but the intent of that.
38:53
[SPEAKER_06]: should not be so that you can move your people more.
38:57
[SPEAKER_06]: It should be so that you do the best with the text that you humanly can, that you honor the Lord in doing the text justice, giving the text the respect that it deserves.
39:11
[SPEAKER_06]: right, and your people are going to be edified by that because the Spirit will take the words of God being preached in any scenario and apply them the way that he wants to.
39:22
[SPEAKER_06]: So, on one hand, yeah, seek to be engaging, seek to be good at your job, seek to be a good preacher, don't be boring, but understand that your job is not to create some sort of emotional response from your people.
39:36
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
39:36
[SPEAKER_06]: That's the spirits job.
39:38
[SPEAKER_06]: Be faithful in preaching Christ wherever you are in Scripture, preach the text faithfully, and trust in the Spirit to apply what the Spirit will apply.
39:50
[SPEAKER_06]: That's it.
39:51
[SPEAKER_06]: It's that's it's that's simple and people are encouraged and pastors will not be discouraged because they're not dealing with a weight that is not theirs to carry.
40:03
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think that this is a, yeah, just going back to that original comment you said to Josh and just like maybe we do need to like pat these guys more on the back like yeah, I think that I think that yeah, I think that the and I see it pretty much every Sunday.
40:19
[SPEAKER_05]: When our pastor preaches he's not preaching out of a sense of arrogance or pride, he's preaching out of a sense of loving and caring for the sheep that he has in the flock.
40:32
[SPEAKER_05]: He is an under-shepardender Jesus.
40:34
[SPEAKER_05]: And so, if I were to see that in a pastor, I would point that out.
40:39
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but I don't see that in my pastors every single Sunday when they come up to the Lord's Day.
40:44
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
40:44
[SPEAKER_05]: And they're humbled by what God is showing them in the text and they're sharing that through their preaching.
40:50
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:50
[SPEAKER_05]: So, if it was a different circumstance in a different church, I could see where that's an issue.
40:55
[SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, I think just broad brushing it like
41:02
[SPEAKER_06]: it you're you're unentendably have you unentendably have collateral damage and yeah yeah I don't think that's very wise indeed well any time you set up a any time in any instance anywhere yeah you set up a subjective standard yeah and call people to it there's gonna be there's gonna be trouble yeah there's gonna be trouble so yeah so let's seek to not do that
41:30
[SPEAKER_06]: and be faithful and trusted in the spirit to do the movie, right?
41:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Jack, my friend, why don't you move us out of here?
41:41
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure.
41:41
[SPEAKER_05]: Please.
41:42
[SPEAKER_05]: The correct moving, so to say.
41:44
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
41:44
[SPEAKER_05]: Ladies and gentlemen, if you appreciate what Josh and I do here on that formatory and making the local church central to the believer's life, and you would like to follow us, send us a message, interact with us some more.
41:57
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41:59
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42:03
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42:08
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42:09
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42:14
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42:23
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42:24
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42:31
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42:38
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42:40
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42:43
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42:44
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42:49
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42:51
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42:55
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43:09
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43:19
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