Latest / The Path Went Chilly / Patreon Summer Sampler: Michael Chucky Palmer

Transcript

Patreon Summer Sampler: Michael Chucky Palmer · The Path Went Chilly

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Path Went Chili for this month's
0:04
Speaker 1: bonus Patreon exclusive minisod.
0:06
Speaker 2: I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm Ashley. Let's dive right
0:10
Speaker 2: into this month's case.
0:13
Speaker 3: June fourth, nineteen ninety nine, Wascilla, Alaska, while spending the
0:18
Speaker 3: night at a friend's house, fifteen year old Michael Palmer
0:21
Speaker 3: slips out to attend a graduation party. While viking home
0:25
Speaker 3: with friends, Michael vanishes without a trace, but his bicycle
0:29
Speaker 3: and sneakers are soon discovered at separate locations. Over a
0:33
Speaker 3: decade later, Michael's brother Chucky goes missing while riding a
0:37
Speaker 3: snow machine in the Talquina Mountains, but neither sibling has
0:40
Speaker 3: ever been found after that.
0:43
Speaker 1: The Path Went Chili. So today's minisod is a pretty
0:47
Speaker 1: unique one, as we will be covering the unsolved disappearances
0:50
Speaker 1: of two brothers from Alaska, Michael and Chucky Palmer. But
0:54
Speaker 1: this is not a case of siblings disappearing together. No,
0:58
Speaker 1: We're actually going to be chronicling two sep stories of
1:00
Speaker 1: two brothers who vanished over a decade apart from each other,
1:03
Speaker 1: at different locations under entirely different circumstances. Even though there
1:08
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be any direct connection between the disappearances.
1:12
Speaker 1: There are few eerie parallels between them. In both cases,
1:16
Speaker 1: the victim was traveling somewhere with a group of people
1:19
Speaker 1: before they apparently became separated from them and went missing.
1:23
Speaker 1: While search parties would eventually come across Michael and Chucky's
1:26
Speaker 1: modes of transportation in one case of bicycle and the
1:29
Speaker 1: other a snow machine, no trace of either sibling was
1:32
Speaker 1: ever found. Not only is the whole situation an astonishing coincidence,
1:37
Speaker 1: but it has to be an incredibly painful tragedy for
1:40
Speaker 1: the Palmer family. I originally covered this on the Trail
1:43
Speaker 1: Went Cold five and a half years ago, and both
1:45
Speaker 1: stories deserved to be explored again.
1:49
Speaker 2: I'm in shock when you started talking about two brothers
1:53
Speaker 2: that went missing. I thought, oh my gosh, they went
1:55
Speaker 2: on this trip together and then they were nowhere to
1:57
Speaker 2: be found. This is two boys who go missing a
2:02
Speaker 2: decade apart, and what's wild to me is no trace
2:06
Speaker 2: of them has ever been found. There's a whimsical side
2:09
Speaker 2: of me who says, hey, you know, the first one
2:11
Speaker 2: went missing, he reached out to his brother and he
2:13
Speaker 2: went missing too, and they're alive and well somewhere. But
2:16
Speaker 2: I have a feeling you're going to give me information
2:18
Speaker 2: that tells me that's probably not the case. Very bizarre
2:22
Speaker 2: that they were with a group of people, This was
2:24
Speaker 2: not an isolated trip they were taking, and then for
2:27
Speaker 2: some reason they are isolated away from those people and
2:32
Speaker 2: end up never being seen again. I have to know
2:35
Speaker 2: more about the circumstances. And like you said, Robin, what
2:38
Speaker 2: a tragic and just unbelievable experience for the Palmer family.
2:43
Speaker 2: That lightning strikes twice in your family. There's this awful,
2:48
Speaker 2: awful circumstance that then a decade later happens again with
2:53
Speaker 2: one of your children or brothers or you know, uncles.
2:57
Speaker 2: And we don't know what happens, So tell me what
3:00
Speaker 2: we do know.
3:02
Speaker 3: Our story begins in nineteen ninety nine in Wassilla, Alaska,
3:06
Speaker 3: which is part of the Anchorage metropolitan area and had
3:09
Speaker 3: a population of just over five thousand people at the time.
3:13
Speaker 3: One of our central figures is fifteen year old Michael Palmer,
3:17
Speaker 3: who lives with his parents, Charles and Lisa Palmer, his
3:20
Speaker 3: sister Hannah, and two older brothers, Chris and Charles Junior.
3:24
Speaker 3: The latter of whom goes by the name Chucky. On
3:27
Speaker 3: June third, Michael told his family he was going out
3:30
Speaker 3: to spend the night at a friend's house, so he
3:32
Speaker 3: rode there after borrowing a bicycle from someone else. What
3:36
Speaker 3: the Palmer family didn't know was that Michael and three
3:39
Speaker 3: of his friends were planning to slip out and attend
3:41
Speaker 3: a graduation party. When Michael's mother phoned his friend's house
3:45
Speaker 3: that night, she was told the boys were sleeping in
3:48
Speaker 3: the clubhouse out back. No one was aware that they
3:51
Speaker 3: had actually gone to this party, which was located in
3:54
Speaker 3: the Meadow Lake subdivision outside Wassilla and approximately nine miles
3:58
Speaker 3: from the Palmer residence. This would be the first major
4:02
Speaker 3: party Michael ever experienced, and according to his friends, he
4:06
Speaker 3: drank some beer there but did not become noticeably intoxicated.
4:10
Speaker 3: At around four am on June fourth, Michael left the
4:13
Speaker 3: party on his bicycle alongside his three friends, who claimed
4:17
Speaker 3: they were all riding together on Pittman Road. When he
4:20
Speaker 3: started lagging behind them and soon dropped out of sight.
4:23
Speaker 3: They decided to pull over at a seven eleven and
4:26
Speaker 3: wait for Michael to catch up, but he never arrived.
4:30
Speaker 3: Assuming that Michael had decided to split away from the
4:32
Speaker 3: group and head back to his house. His friend stopped
4:35
Speaker 3: waiting and rode away, but unfortunately, Michael never did make
4:39
Speaker 3: it home that morning. When Lisa Palmer noticed her son
4:43
Speaker 3: wasn't there, she contacted his friends, who told her they
4:46
Speaker 3: thought Michael had ridden back home. After not hearing from him,
4:50
Speaker 3: Lisa officially reported her son missing at around three pm.
4:54
Speaker 2: Oh this poor mother. Okay, so when Lisa notices her
4:58
Speaker 2: son's on home, she starts to pan because any mother
5:00
Speaker 2: wouldn't say, you know, where is he? And he should
5:03
Speaker 2: have been with these friends that I trusted, you know,
5:05
Speaker 2: they were all in this one group together. When I
5:07
Speaker 2: first heard the story, I was assuming these are grown
5:10
Speaker 2: men who go missing at different times. But Michael is
5:14
Speaker 2: only fifteen years old. Here he's also being exposed to
5:17
Speaker 2: alcohol for the first time. While he's not showing visible
5:20
Speaker 2: signs of being highly intoxicated, I could see him feeling sick,
5:25
Speaker 2: feeling unsteady on his bike. And if someone were to
5:28
Speaker 2: pull up next to him and ask like, hey man,
5:30
Speaker 2: you want to ride, or hey man, you know, like
5:33
Speaker 2: do you want to jump in? I could see a
5:35
Speaker 2: kid saying, God, yeah, I'm not really in a good
5:38
Speaker 2: space right now and being much more susceptible to that
5:41
Speaker 2: than they would be if they were sober, or if
5:43
Speaker 2: they were with a group of friends instead of being alone.
5:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to talk about this more later on
5:48
Speaker 1: in this minisode, but there are some parallels between this
5:51
Speaker 1: case and another case we did in the past about
5:53
Speaker 1: another underage kid who died understrained circumstances after attending a party,
5:58
Speaker 1: and the circumstances were very Sickimler where he was underage,
6:01
Speaker 1: it was his first party where he actually had to
6:03
Speaker 1: do drinking with alcohol, and then something bad happened to them.
6:06
Speaker 1: And there's been like a lot of speculation that it
6:09
Speaker 1: either played a role in Michael's disappearance or there are
6:13
Speaker 1: some people who attended that party, or possibly even his friends,
6:16
Speaker 1: who aren't telling everything they know, and that's something sneaky
6:20
Speaker 1: may have happened, and that a cover up may have
6:22
Speaker 1: taken place.
6:23
Speaker 3: And that's what I was going to say, like, how
6:25
Speaker 3: reliable are these kids as narrators when it comes to
6:29
Speaker 3: how intoxicated he was? If you think back to high
6:32
Speaker 3: school parties when there's nothing to hide, really, you can't
6:36
Speaker 3: really necessarily say how drunk your friends are if you
6:38
Speaker 3: yourself are drunk as well, And so I have a
6:42
Speaker 3: hard time believing that, like these kids, do you know, Robin,
6:45
Speaker 3: did they talk to the kids at the party as
6:48
Speaker 3: well as the three boys? It was three boys he
6:51
Speaker 3: was with, right, Well, yeah, yeah.
6:53
Speaker 1: They did talk to the people at the party, and
6:54
Speaker 1: there definitely wasn't anything to really arouse suspicion. Apparently they
6:58
Speaker 1: just said he was drinking, but nothing happened. But it
7:02
Speaker 1: sounds like some of the suspicion is directed at the
7:04
Speaker 1: three friends because they their story is that Michael was
7:07
Speaker 1: behind us, the lag behind, and we waited for him
7:09
Speaker 1: and then he just vanished without a trace. But some
7:12
Speaker 1: people have found that suspicious, like if your friend just
7:14
Speaker 1: disappeared while you're riding home, why didn't you try looking
7:17
Speaker 1: for him? Why didn't you Why did you just automatically
7:19
Speaker 1: assume he was going to go back home, particularly since
7:22
Speaker 1: he wasn't supposed to be spending the night at home,
7:24
Speaker 1: like they were going to spend the night at a
7:25
Speaker 1: clubhouse at a friend's residence. So that's why some people
7:29
Speaker 1: think that there might be more to their story.
7:32
Speaker 3: I could see it as being super suspicious, but I
7:35
Speaker 3: could also see it as being just kids being kind
7:37
Speaker 3: of reckless and not really thinking about other people. It
7:42
Speaker 3: could cut either way. I mean, it just seems inexplicable
7:45
Speaker 3: that he could just go missing. It feels like there
7:48
Speaker 3: must be more to the story. But I also could
7:50
Speaker 3: see just kids being kids and not really thinking, especially
7:54
Speaker 3: if they themselves are intoxicated. I remember being thirteen or
7:57
Speaker 3: fourteen being at a party and barely being able to
8:01
Speaker 3: be responsible for myself getting home and maybe not necessarily
8:05
Speaker 3: looking out for my friends or then looking out for
8:07
Speaker 3: me as much as they should have in that situation.
8:10
Speaker 3: I know, when you get older, it's very much emphasized
8:13
Speaker 3: that you do that, but I think when you're like
8:15
Speaker 3: really underage and you're drinking, kids can maybe just not
8:19
Speaker 3: act in the most intelligent of ways.
8:22
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm with you, Jules. I think you're right.
8:24
Speaker 2: I mean, they're kids that are drinking, which is, you know,
8:27
Speaker 2: it's a normal thing in many places that that happens.
8:30
Speaker 2: But when you're that young, I think the world is
8:34
Speaker 2: so centered around you, your enjoyment, your happiness. You're fun.
8:38
Speaker 2: You know, they're being a little bit risque and feeling adventurous,
8:42
Speaker 2: and so you're not really looking at a global issue.
8:45
Speaker 2: You're not really paying attention to the weight of the
8:49
Speaker 2: decisions you're making. It's just in good fun and you're
8:52
Speaker 2: being a little bit sneaky, right, It's an adventure for
8:55
Speaker 2: you guys. So I would like to know who all
8:58
Speaker 2: was at this party? Is this all like thirteen to
9:01
Speaker 2: sixteen year olds? Are we talking about some of age
9:04
Speaker 2: people who are buying alcohol for these young kids? I
9:06
Speaker 2: think that would make oh, oh, you know, would tell
9:09
Speaker 2: us a lot about who was there and who could
9:11
Speaker 2: have maybe followed Michael or intercepted him at some point.
9:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't really specifically release any information about who
9:18
Speaker 1: was at that party, but I suspect they were older
9:20
Speaker 1: kids because it's described as being a graduation party, so
9:23
Speaker 1: that means they would have been around eighteen to nineteen
9:25
Speaker 1: years old, whereas Michael was only fifteen. But I have
9:28
Speaker 1: to suspect that the older people there were providing the booze.
9:31
Speaker 1: So a search of the area turned up no trace
9:34
Speaker 1: of Michael, but his bicycle was soon discovered in the
9:36
Speaker 1: Little Sissitina River, which is located near Pittman Road. A
9:40
Speaker 1: search of the river was conducted to see if Michael
9:42
Speaker 1: might have fallen in and drowned or succumbed to hypothermia,
9:46
Speaker 1: but no body was found. The river was very shallow
9:49
Speaker 1: and flowed downstream towards a logjam, so if Michael's body
9:53
Speaker 1: had been in there, it likely would have turned up.
9:55
Speaker 1: Tracker dogs could also not pick up michael scent at
9:58
Speaker 1: the river or in the nearby woods. However, there was
10:01
Speaker 1: a bit of controversy about the discovery of the bicycle
10:04
Speaker 1: because Michael's brother Chris did not think it was the
10:07
Speaker 1: same bike which Michael had borrowed that night. There was
10:10
Speaker 1: another odd development when one of the teenagers who had
10:13
Speaker 1: attended the graduation party notified police that he found a
10:17
Speaker 1: pair of high top Converse sneakers on his father's property
10:20
Speaker 1: next to a private airstrip. The location was two hundred
10:24
Speaker 1: yards away from the Little Sissitina River and less than
10:27
Speaker 1: a mile from where Michael was last seen. The sneakers
10:30
Speaker 1: were wet and muddy and matched the brand in size
10:32
Speaker 1: that Michael wore. Needless to say, the Palmer family did
10:36
Speaker 1: not believe Michael had just run off and disappeared voluntarily,
10:39
Speaker 1: and the discovery of the bicycle and his shoes seemed
10:42
Speaker 1: to confirm.
10:42
Speaker 2: That when we talk about missing people and later you think, okay,
10:47
Speaker 2: they were discovered somewhere, Right, this was something they chose
10:49
Speaker 2: to do. They planted. Michael's fifteen, he's drinking at a party,
10:54
Speaker 2: he's being a kid, and I don't think any part
10:59
Speaker 2: of him was going to go missing that night, right,
11:02
Speaker 2: there was There's no planning on his part. There was
11:04
Speaker 2: no you know, I'm going to have this life away
11:06
Speaker 2: from here. It's just he's too young for that to
11:09
Speaker 2: me and unsophisticated when you talk about a young, you know,
11:12
Speaker 2: young teenager doing something like that. So when the Palmer
11:15
Speaker 2: family realizes their son hasn't come home, I mean, the
11:18
Speaker 2: ultimate thing that you have to think is someone met
11:23
Speaker 2: with Michael that night and is the reason he didn't
11:25
Speaker 2: come home. And that's when your brain starts running through
11:28
Speaker 2: scenarios of what happened here. You know, was it human trafficking,
11:32
Speaker 2: did someone hurt him as someone holding him? Is you know,
11:35
Speaker 2: he being trafficked for labor? What is happening to our
11:38
Speaker 2: baby right now? Or you know, in some ways worst
11:41
Speaker 2: is he deceased and wears his body And.
11:44
Speaker 1: I'm sure the discovery of the shoes is particularly disturbing
11:47
Speaker 1: because one thing you're not going to do when you're
11:49
Speaker 1: deciding to run away is take off your footwear and
11:52
Speaker 1: just leave it laying around, Like he's not going to
11:54
Speaker 1: run away while he's in his soft feet or bare feet.
11:56
Speaker 1: So I'm sure when they found that, they realized that
11:58
Speaker 1: something bad must have been happen to them.
12:01
Speaker 3: What does it mean too? Like I just keep fixating
12:04
Speaker 3: on those shoes, like wet muddy shoes by an airstrip.
12:07
Speaker 3: Did somebody place them there? Are they supposed to be
12:10
Speaker 3: like a red herring to like make them look elsewhere
12:13
Speaker 3: rather than where his body actually is. I can't, for
12:18
Speaker 3: the life of me, seem to reconcile, like why somebody
12:22
Speaker 3: would put those shoes there? I just think I think
12:25
Speaker 3: there's no possibility that Michael himself left them there, because
12:28
Speaker 3: why would he go shoeless and take off these wet
12:31
Speaker 3: shoes and just abandon them there? Why would he even
12:34
Speaker 3: be there in the first place. It seems likely that
12:37
Speaker 3: whomever you know did this harm to Michael or murdered
12:41
Speaker 3: Michael is the one who is responsible for the shoes,
12:44
Speaker 3: But just why exactly?
12:47
Speaker 1: Like I haven't seen too many other cases like this before.
12:49
Speaker 1: Where someone goes missing and they just find their shoes
12:52
Speaker 1: lying around in a random place, So it does point
12:55
Speaker 1: towards an outside party placing them there, Oh.
12:58
Speaker 3: Robin, what's the case the some unsolved mysteries where the
13:01
Speaker 3: shoes are found in a different place from the train accident,
13:05
Speaker 3: or whether or not it was intentional.
13:07
Speaker 2: Or is that the teenage girl, yes, yes, is yet Yeah?
13:10
Speaker 1: The at Tifanyvlante case where she was hit by a train,
13:13
Speaker 1: but her shoes were found I think maybe a mile
13:15
Speaker 1: away next to the side of the road, and her
13:18
Speaker 1: parents were speculating that whoever killed her may have thrown
13:21
Speaker 1: them there, though I personally believed that she was in
13:23
Speaker 1: such a bad state that she may have taken them
13:25
Speaker 1: off herself and thrown them into the woods because she
13:28
Speaker 1: was planning suicide.
13:29
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I'm definitely not of the camp
13:32
Speaker 3: that believes that she was murdered. Given her state of
13:34
Speaker 3: mind leading up to it and the events that transpired
13:37
Speaker 3: that night, it just seemed like those were a major
13:40
Speaker 3: trigger for her.
13:41
Speaker 1: Well.
13:41
Speaker 3: There were rumors that fights had taken place at the
13:44
Speaker 3: party that Michael attended. Investigators interviewed teenagers who were there
13:49
Speaker 3: and uncovered no evidence to indicate that something had happened
13:52
Speaker 3: to Michael. Several months after he went missing. Things took
13:56
Speaker 3: a darker turn when Michael's brothers heard that a local
14:00
Speaker 3: youth had been telling his story about seeing Michael get
14:03
Speaker 3: beaten and shot on a bridge. Upon learning this, Charles
14:07
Speaker 3: Palmer Sr. Tracked down this young man and personally escorted
14:11
Speaker 3: him to the police station to share his story. The
14:14
Speaker 3: young man showed them the bridge where the incident allegedly occurred,
14:18
Speaker 3: but it wasn't long before police began poking holes in
14:20
Speaker 3: his story. After taking a polygraph and flunking it, he
14:24
Speaker 3: finally recanted the story and admitted he made the whole
14:27
Speaker 3: thing up.
14:29
Speaker 2: This is so heartbreaking when this happens in a case.
14:31
Speaker 2: You look at the Palmer family who is desperately seeking
14:35
Speaker 2: any kind of information, and then you have this young
14:38
Speaker 2: kid who thinks it's going to be funny or get
14:41
Speaker 2: him some kind of attention or make him seem important,
14:44
Speaker 2: to make up something so horrific and tragic, right, telling people,
14:49
Speaker 2: including his brother that he knows what happened, right, that
14:53
Speaker 2: this kid is beaten and shot and pushed over this bridge,
14:56
Speaker 2: and all of this just horrific details and then to
15:02
Speaker 2: come to find out he made the whole thing up.
15:04
Speaker 2: It is enraging to me, and I wish I could
15:07
Speaker 2: say that this didn't happen very often, But when you
15:09
Speaker 2: have these unsolved cases, families are so desperate for information
15:14
Speaker 2: and they don't feel like they're getting it from the media,
15:16
Speaker 2: they don't feel like they're getting it from the police,
15:18
Speaker 2: and so they're seeking anyone who will talk to them,
15:21
Speaker 2: and it unfortunately brings people like this kid to the surface,
15:25
Speaker 2: who say, oh, I'm going to be important in this
15:28
Speaker 2: for you know, have a few minutes of fame, and
15:31
Speaker 2: it is detrimental and destroys a family who's asking someone
15:36
Speaker 2: to help and instead this person's actually creating so much
15:39
Speaker 2: trauma and harm.
15:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, we see this all the time in missing persons
15:42
Speaker 1: cases and unsolved murdered cases. And I have a feeling
15:45
Speaker 1: that this guy was bragging just for attention and probably
15:47
Speaker 1: thought it would never escalate to the point where we
15:49
Speaker 1: would have to speak to the police. But I do
15:51
Speaker 1: love the fact that Charles Senior took the initiative to
15:54
Speaker 1: actually find him and drag him to the police station,
15:56
Speaker 1: and he probably realized, oh shit, I'm in big trouble.
15:58
Speaker 1: Right now, and that's when he finally came clean and
16:01
Speaker 1: admit that he was just spreading false information. However, there
16:05
Speaker 1: was still speculation that Michael might have been attacked while
16:07
Speaker 1: riding home on his bicycle, and that at the very least,
16:10
Speaker 1: his three friends were not telling the whole story. Michael's
16:13
Speaker 1: father was always skeptical about their account of what happened
16:16
Speaker 1: that night, and ended up hiring two different private investigators
16:20
Speaker 1: to look into things. One of the investigators apparently left
16:23
Speaker 1: town because she was threatened, and the other one uncovered
16:26
Speaker 1: rumors that Michael may have never left the party and
16:29
Speaker 1: became the victim of a murder or kidnapping. Unfortunately, nothing
16:33
Speaker 1: could be substantiated, and the leads eventually dried up. While
16:36
Speaker 1: there was no evidence to prove that Michael was a
16:38
Speaker 1: victim of foul play, there was no evidence to prove
16:41
Speaker 1: he wasn't either. The disappearance took a major toll on
16:45
Speaker 1: the Palmer family, and Charles Senior and Lisa wound up
16:48
Speaker 1: getting a divorce. Michael's case faded from the spotlight, but
16:52
Speaker 1: wound up getting some additional attention eleven years later, after
16:56
Speaker 1: his family made the news again for the worst reason. Imaginable.
16:59
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay, so before we get to the
17:02
Speaker 2: next trauma this family's facing, I want to just address
17:05
Speaker 2: real quick, like the dynamic between the husband and wife,
17:09
Speaker 2: mister and Ms Palmer where they end up getting a divorce.
17:12
Speaker 2: I'm sure many manufactors went into that, but when tragedy hits.
17:16
Speaker 2: One of the things I found when I was working
17:18
Speaker 2: with families on a regular basis was that whatever the
17:21
Speaker 2: state of the family was before tragedy, it got amplified
17:25
Speaker 2: two thousand percent right after a tragedy struck. So if
17:29
Speaker 2: there were any fusses, cracks, things like that, struggles in
17:32
Speaker 2: the family, stresses in the family, a trauma would completely
17:37
Speaker 2: unravel the family. And even when there wasn't a blatant problem.
17:42
Speaker 2: That when a family is trying to grieve a singular
17:45
Speaker 2: problem as individuals and they're not given all the resources
17:50
Speaker 2: because there's very few resources for families affected by these
17:52
Speaker 2: unsolved crimes. Right when they're not given proper resources to
17:56
Speaker 2: heal properly and to make progress mentally and physically as
17:59
Speaker 2: a family and as individuals, it's nearly impossible for all
18:04
Speaker 2: the family members to respect and understand different grieving strategies.
18:08
Speaker 2: Different approaches with the police, different approaches to the media.
18:12
Speaker 2: You would see like a husband say I'm done talking
18:15
Speaker 2: to the media. I don't want the police calling here,
18:17
Speaker 2: and a mother getting upset and saying, well, if you know,
18:20
Speaker 2: how dare you do you not care about our son?
18:22
Speaker 2: I'm going to have the police calling me every day, right,
18:25
Speaker 2: So those just small differences and not having the professional
18:31
Speaker 2: tools available to you to say, hey, guys, you need
18:34
Speaker 2: to grieve as a family. You need to speak and
18:35
Speaker 2: communicate about these things. Without having someone to hold your
18:38
Speaker 2: hand through that. I don't know many families that could
18:41
Speaker 2: survive and could leave without these kind of other subsequent
18:45
Speaker 2: traumas that come, like divorce, like deaths, like medical issues
18:49
Speaker 2: that many families face because it's too much, it's inhumane,
18:53
Speaker 2: it's unimaginable to think of what you would do when
18:56
Speaker 2: your child disappears.
18:57
Speaker 3: It always feels like there's this darkness, this void, this
19:01
Speaker 3: like indelible mark that is left on a family. And
19:04
Speaker 3: Robin's talked about it a lot in past unsolved mysteries
19:07
Speaker 3: cases where there's a family and you see them kind
19:11
Speaker 3: of taken out well before their years due to illness tragedies.
19:17
Speaker 3: It just feels like tragedy gets more tragedy, and a
19:21
Speaker 3: lot of these families, whether it be you know, premature death, divorce, illness,
19:26
Speaker 3: these traumas really leave a mark emotionally and physically, and
19:31
Speaker 3: sometimes it takes years to manifest, but just the catastrophic
19:35
Speaker 3: damage that this does to a family unit can't be ignored.
19:39
Speaker 3: And it's really heartbreaking when you see two people grow
19:43
Speaker 3: apart and grieve apart rather than come together. But I
19:47
Speaker 3: think you're absolutely right, Ashley, like it amplifies whatever issues
19:50
Speaker 3: you're having in a marriage or in your family unit
19:53
Speaker 3: is going to be you know, exacerbated tenfold. So if
19:57
Speaker 3: everything is really great and you have really healthy communication
20:01
Speaker 3: and you're able to come together and support each other,
20:05
Speaker 3: then that's fantastic. But I think that there's a lot
20:07
Speaker 3: of families where everybody has their issues and things like
20:11
Speaker 3: that can just cause people to have a lot of
20:14
Speaker 3: anger looking for somebody to blame. Right when you don't
20:17
Speaker 3: have anybody to point a finger at, when there are
20:20
Speaker 3: no answers, it's very easy to point fingers at each other.
20:23
Speaker 2: Amen. Oh my god, Jules. That's one of the biggest
20:26
Speaker 2: things that I see with families is it's I want answers,
20:30
Speaker 2: and if I don't have a perpetrator to blame, there
20:33
Speaker 2: is an understandable anger that exists and a frustration and
20:38
Speaker 2: a resentment. And it's easy to look next door and
20:41
Speaker 2: say you it's because of you. Do you remember when
20:43
Speaker 2: you did this? And you know? Oh, it's because of
20:45
Speaker 2: the police. It's because you know, And even the victim,
20:49
Speaker 2: like there's there's frustration with the victim oftentimes when I
20:51
Speaker 2: talk to families where it's like, why did he do that?
20:53
Speaker 2: You know? And it's it's not really guided towards them.
20:56
Speaker 2: It's not really guided towards your spouse. But the birds
21:00
Speaker 2: are there and they hurt, and the feelings aren't any different,
21:03
Speaker 2: even though the intention may not be there.
21:05
Speaker 3: By twenty ten, Chucky, the middle brother in the Palmer family,
21:09
Speaker 3: was thirty years old and had three daughters of his own.
21:13
Speaker 3: That spring, Chucky and the oldest Palmer brother, Chris, decided
21:17
Speaker 3: to take a trip to the Talquina Mountains alongside their
21:20
Speaker 3: stepfather and two friends. The group would travel nearly seventy
21:24
Speaker 3: miles away from Wasilla and parked their cars on Mastadon
21:29
Speaker 3: Road near Bald Mountain. They then used snow machines to
21:33
Speaker 3: navigate through the woods and stated a cabin located five
21:36
Speaker 3: miles from the road. On April tenth, the group was
21:39
Speaker 3: of the cabin and planning to do some more snow machining,
21:42
Speaker 3: but since the handlebar on Chris's snow machine had snapped
21:45
Speaker 3: off that morning, he was forced to stay behind while
21:48
Speaker 3: everyone else went on their excursion. With the Palmer brother's
21:52
Speaker 3: stepfather leading the way, the group left the cabin and
21:55
Speaker 3: rode their snow machines together through the woods. They eventually
21:59
Speaker 3: started heading back to the cabin on the main trail,
22:02
Speaker 3: but at around seven fifteen pm, CHUCKI became separated from
22:06
Speaker 3: the group and headed off in the wrong direction. When
22:09
Speaker 3: Chucky did not return, he was reported missing the following morning.
22:14
Speaker 2: So he's actually with his brother at the time, right,
22:18
Speaker 2: and his stepfather, Yeah.
22:19
Speaker 1: That's correct, and a couple of other friends.
22:22
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Okay, so they've already experienced as a
22:25
Speaker 2: family this horrific trauma and then they're just out on
22:29
Speaker 2: a normal trip together as a family and this tragedy
22:35
Speaker 2: occurs again. I can't even fathom what it would be
22:38
Speaker 2: like to say, Okay, I've had this feeling before when
22:42
Speaker 2: someone's gone, like I guarantee you like I Okay, So
22:45
Speaker 2: when Buddy passed away and I wasn't able to you know,
22:49
Speaker 2: save him or fix him or access him anymore. If
22:52
Speaker 2: I didn't get a phone call within like ten minutes
22:56
Speaker 2: of when I was supposed to get a phone call
22:57
Speaker 2: from my parents or my brother or a good friend,
23:00
Speaker 2: I immediately went to these horrific places in my head
23:03
Speaker 2: that something had happened right, that I was going to
23:04
Speaker 2: lose them forever. And it took years for me to
23:07
Speaker 2: get past that kind of immediate panic and fear. Here.
23:13
Speaker 2: I guarantee you the moment they couldn't see Chucky, there's
23:16
Speaker 2: this kind of like, oh my god, what happened to him? Okay,
23:18
Speaker 2: we've had this before. What happened? But no way, anyone
23:22
Speaker 2: in that group really thought we're going to suffer the
23:24
Speaker 2: exact same tragedy again. And sure enough, it goes from
23:29
Speaker 2: you know, an hour, two hours, three hours, and it's
23:32
Speaker 2: the next morning that they go, oh my god, the
23:35
Speaker 2: reality is is that Chucky didn't come back. We're going
23:38
Speaker 2: to live this nightmare all over again. And then it
23:40
Speaker 2: starts to unravel from there.
23:42
Speaker 1: And the same circumstances too. It's just like Michael, where
23:45
Speaker 1: they're all riding together and then Chucky becomes separated and
23:48
Speaker 1: then they just never see him again. An extensive search
23:51
Speaker 1: was performed in the area, and Chucky's snow machine was
23:54
Speaker 1: eventually discovered on a side trail near Sheep River, about
23:57
Speaker 1: twelve miles from the cabin. It was a that after
24:00
Speaker 1: taking a wrong turn and getting lost, Chucky's snow machine
24:03
Speaker 1: had eventually gotten stuck in some deep snow. It seemed
24:07
Speaker 1: likely that he left the spot on foot, but the
24:09
Speaker 1: snow in that area was around waist deep. While CHUCKI
24:12
Speaker 1: was dressed appropriately for the weather, he did not have
24:15
Speaker 1: a GPS device, survival gear, food, or water. The weather
24:19
Speaker 1: conditions would worsen and seriously hamper the search effort, as
24:23
Speaker 1: there was a total of twenty eight inches of snow,
24:25
Speaker 1: making it difficult for the search helicopter to travel through
24:28
Speaker 1: the air. The Renault footprints found near the snow machine
24:31
Speaker 1: and no traces of blood anywhere, and when Chucky failed
24:34
Speaker 1: to turn up, the bad weather brought an end to
24:36
Speaker 1: the search effort after five days. After the spring thaw,
24:40
Speaker 1: another search was conducted of the area in June, but
24:43
Speaker 1: it still failed to turn up any trace of Chucky.
24:46
Speaker 1: Since it was assumed that Chucky got lost and died
24:48
Speaker 1: of exposure, he was legally declared dead one year later. Unfortunately,
24:53
Speaker 1: Chucki's body has never been recovered, and the disappearance of
24:56
Speaker 1: his brother Michael also continues to remain unsought. So I
25:01
Speaker 1: guess you could say the path when Chili.
25:05
Speaker 2: This is insane. I mean, what is helpful in Chucky's
25:10
Speaker 2: case is that you do have an explanation that can
25:14
Speaker 2: make logical sense to you. Right, the weather was horrible.
25:17
Speaker 2: It's possible that he lost visual contact with his party,
25:21
Speaker 2: he didn't know where he was going, he runs out
25:24
Speaker 2: of gas, or his snowmobile gets stuck and he has
25:28
Speaker 2: to walk on foot, which is a very dangerous thing
25:30
Speaker 2: when you're out in the wilderness, and incredibly dangerous when
25:33
Speaker 2: you're by yourself. And so with his case, there's a
25:36
Speaker 2: logical explanation. With Michael's case, there's not. But both cases
25:42
Speaker 2: we don't have remains found. So to me, it's wild
25:46
Speaker 2: that Chucky's body isn't discovered. When the snow thaws and
25:49
Speaker 2: the springtime comes in, summer's there and hikers are hiking
25:53
Speaker 2: and doing all of these things, there's no recovery of him.
25:57
Speaker 2: I am inclined to think exactly what what they're saying
26:01
Speaker 2: is that he, you know, walked off into the wilderness,
26:03
Speaker 2: he succumbed to the elements, and then you know, passed
26:07
Speaker 2: away in the woods. So but why didn't they find
26:10
Speaker 2: his body? And then with Michael, I don't think we
26:13
Speaker 2: have any concept of what happened to him. If he
26:16
Speaker 2: you know, got lost and did the same thing, passed
26:19
Speaker 2: away in the woods or something like that, if he
26:21
Speaker 2: was picked up and trafficked, was he attacked and killed
26:25
Speaker 2: like this poor family has no resolution, no place to
26:30
Speaker 2: go on or their missing loved ones. It's absolutely heartbreaking.
26:34
Speaker 3: How are there no bodies. It's just shocking. You'd think
26:36
Speaker 3: at least one of their bodies would have surfaced. It
26:40
Speaker 3: seems inexplicable. I know there is a lot of terrain
26:42
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of places that they could be,
26:46
Speaker 3: particularly in Michael's case, because they don't know exactly where
26:49
Speaker 3: he was and if somebody took him, But it seems
26:52
Speaker 3: like chucky. There's really only so far he could have traveled,
26:56
Speaker 3: so once everything thaws out, you really would expect to
26:59
Speaker 3: find his remains. So when you don't, it's just confounding.
27:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, we've seen a lot of cases like
27:05
Speaker 1: this where someone goes missing in the wilderness and a
27:08
Speaker 1: massive search effort fails to find them, but then many
27:11
Speaker 1: years after the fact, someone will just happen to stumble
27:13
Speaker 1: upon the remains and it turns out they were there
27:15
Speaker 1: the entire time, yet the search team just happened to
27:18
Speaker 1: miss it. And I could see that happening here because
27:21
Speaker 1: there was so much snowfall during the days following his disappearance.
27:26
Speaker 1: But yeah, like if it was Chucky's story alone, it
27:28
Speaker 1: would be a terrible tragedy. But we see so many
27:30
Speaker 1: of these stories every year where people go missing in
27:33
Speaker 1: the wilderness and everyone figures that they probably just got
27:35
Speaker 1: lost and died of exposure. But I can't think of
27:38
Speaker 1: another case where one person from one family goes missing
27:41
Speaker 1: under these circumstances and then has another sibling go missing
27:44
Speaker 1: like ten years earlier, and their circumstances are quite different.
27:49
Speaker 1: So it's just pretty much like a one and a
27:51
Speaker 1: billion coincidence that would happen to this family.
27:54
Speaker 3: I remember when I was in my twenties, my ex
27:58
Speaker 3: boyfriend's parents had a bunch of different condos at sun Peaks,
28:02
Speaker 3: and so we used to go up there in the winter,
28:04
Speaker 3: and I remember he was such an idiot, so I
28:06
Speaker 3: was so pissed off. One night, I was so drunk,
28:09
Speaker 3: and I remember being like, I'm gonna walk back to
28:11
Speaker 3: the condo, just thinking I knew exactly where I was going,
28:14
Speaker 3: what I was doing, and a major blizzard started and
28:17
Speaker 3: I took the wrong way. I was completely fucking lost, oops,
28:21
Speaker 3: completely lost, and I had no idea where I was going.
28:24
Speaker 3: It was like a white out and I'm like, I'm
28:27
Speaker 3: gonna die out here. I don't know where I'm going,
28:30
Speaker 3: what I'm doing. It was terrifying. He happened to find
28:33
Speaker 3: me somehow, some way. And then years later, I remember
28:37
Speaker 3: there was a case where I can't remember the guy's name,
28:40
Speaker 3: but he went missing at sun Peaks as well, and
28:43
Speaker 3: last I checked, his body was never discovered.
28:45
Speaker 1: Do you know that case, Robin, I don't think so, no.
28:48
Speaker 3: No, Yeah. That always scared me. And this idea that like,
28:51
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, like I'm gonna be missing in this note,
28:54
Speaker 3: no one is ever going to find me. So I
28:56
Speaker 3: can't even imagine what it is like for these families
29:00
Speaker 3: when they lose a loved one, and in this case,
29:02
Speaker 3: to lose two. I can't even wrap my head around that,
29:06
Speaker 3: just how devastating that would be. So this is definitely
29:10
Speaker 3: one of the most heartbreaking stories ever featured on either
29:13
Speaker 3: of our podcasts, and one person you have to feel
29:16
Speaker 3: particularly awful for is Chris Palmer, who's had to endure
29:21
Speaker 3: the disappearance of two brothers. The disappearance of Michael would
29:24
Speaker 3: be difficult enough for Chris, but the loss of Chucky
29:28
Speaker 3: must have been particularly painful since he was present at
29:32
Speaker 3: the time and probably wonders if things might have turned
29:34
Speaker 3: out differently if the handlebar on his snow machine hadn't
29:38
Speaker 3: snapped off, forcing him to stay behind at the cabin.
29:41
Speaker 3: After Chucky went missing, Chris spent four days snow machining
29:46
Speaker 3: through the wilderness searching for him, and said, quote, I
29:49
Speaker 3: never thought I'd have to do this shit ever Again,
29:52
Speaker 3: two brothers aren't supposed to go missing from the same family.
29:55
Speaker 3: My brother's out there fucking starving. How am I going
29:58
Speaker 3: to eat? End quote? During this group's trips through the woods,
30:02
Speaker 3: it was ordinarily Chris's job to ride at the rear
30:05
Speaker 3: and to make sure nobody got lost. But since Chris
30:08
Speaker 3: couldn't go with them this time, Chucky assumed his responsibility. Unfortunately,
30:13
Speaker 3: he somehow got separated from everybody else and nobody noticed
30:17
Speaker 3: until it was too late. It sounds like Chucky was
30:20
Speaker 3: somewhat inexperienced at this and using a relatively new snow machine,
30:25
Speaker 3: so he probably just took a wrong turn somewhere and
30:27
Speaker 3: got lost. After the machine got stuck, Chucky could not
30:31
Speaker 3: find his way back to the rest of the group,
30:33
Speaker 3: but considering the machine was found twelve miles from the cabin,
30:36
Speaker 3: it was probably a hopeless endeavor and he would have
30:39
Speaker 3: eventually succumbed to the elements. It's just a very tragic
30:43
Speaker 3: situation which could have happened to anyone.
30:46
Speaker 2: I am. I'm just heartsick. When you read that quote
30:49
Speaker 2: from Chris, I can just sense his kind of rage
30:52
Speaker 2: and anger, which is such a normal part of the
30:55
Speaker 2: Greevy process, and kind of this just mystified, like unbelievable
31:01
Speaker 2: circumstance like this is not supposed to happen. It's not
31:03
Speaker 2: supposed to happen once. It is not supposed to happen once.
31:08
Speaker 2: There is no reason that Michael should have gone missing
31:10
Speaker 2: that night, right someone knows what happened to him, And
31:13
Speaker 2: then you have Chucky, who goes and for Chris. You know,
31:17
Speaker 2: even in Michael's case, family members take on that kind
31:20
Speaker 2: of guilt and blane, like what if I had gone
31:22
Speaker 2: to the party, what if I had called him home,
31:24
Speaker 2: what if I had asked him to hang out with
31:26
Speaker 2: me that night, Right, those kinds of little things like
31:29
Speaker 2: if one moment had been different, this butterfly effect would
31:32
Speaker 2: have happened, right, and all these other things would have
31:34
Speaker 2: turned out different too. But oh, man, Chris's statement, it's
31:39
Speaker 2: just absolutely devastating.
31:41
Speaker 1: And you're talking about the butterfly effect. But we just
31:43
Speaker 1: talked earlier about as part as their grief, the parents,
31:46
Speaker 1: Charles Senior and Lisa, wound up getting divorced, and look
31:49
Speaker 1: what happens. Lisa gets remarried and the two brothers go
31:52
Speaker 1: off together with their new stepfather, and who knows, like
31:55
Speaker 1: if their parents had gotten divorced, whether they even have
31:57
Speaker 1: gone on this trip, or whether their father or gone
32:00
Speaker 1: with them. So you have to think this one event
32:03
Speaker 1: just kind of caused like a downward spiral that changed
32:05
Speaker 1: everything and they just fell victim just some horrible bad luck.
32:10
Speaker 1: So you might be wondering why Chucky's body was never
32:12
Speaker 1: found after an extensive search was performed in the area,
32:15
Speaker 1: but we constantly referenced cases where someone disappears in the
32:18
Speaker 1: wilderness and no trace of them ever turns up. If
32:21
Speaker 1: you've ever heard our previous episodes about Don Kemp or
32:24
Speaker 1: Mike Reamer, you'll know that it's not uncommon for search
32:27
Speaker 1: efforts to turn up empty when they look for a
32:29
Speaker 1: missing person in an area like this, Yet years later,
32:32
Speaker 1: someone just happens to stumble upon the victim's remains. As
32:36
Speaker 1: it turns out they were there the whole time, but
32:38
Speaker 1: the initial searchers missed them. In many cases, the remains
32:41
Speaker 1: are spread around by animals and scavengers, so the only
32:44
Speaker 1: thing that's found is something small like a jawbone or
32:47
Speaker 1: a partial skull fragment. It really shouldn't be too surprising
32:51
Speaker 1: that no trace of Chucky was found, but given that
32:53
Speaker 1: the search for him didn't start for over twelve hours
32:56
Speaker 1: after he went missing and the area was hit with
32:58
Speaker 1: heavy snowfall, this might explain why no tracks or footprints
33:02
Speaker 1: were found in the vicinity of chucky snow machine, so
33:05
Speaker 1: they couldn't even figure out which direction he went in
33:08
Speaker 1: after he walked away. We can only hope that someone
33:11
Speaker 1: traveling through that area might come across Chucky's remain someday,
33:14
Speaker 1: so as family can at least give him a proper burial.
33:18
Speaker 2: That would be my hope. I mean, like like you
33:20
Speaker 2: just reference, and we referenced earlier. We've talked about these
33:23
Speaker 2: cases where even when massive surge parties go out and
33:27
Speaker 2: they clear an area, just sometimes debris brush, animal activity
33:33
Speaker 2: can uncover information and have a bone show up that
33:38
Speaker 2: eventually leads to a discovery of more remains. And so
33:41
Speaker 2: we've seen that decades later where someone will say, oh
33:44
Speaker 2: my goodness, it was actually just you know, half a
33:46
Speaker 2: mile from where he was last seen that we find
33:49
Speaker 2: his body. So that is a massive prayer of mind
33:52
Speaker 2: that that happens for this family, because there is such
33:56
Speaker 2: an important part of having your loved one back in
34:00
Speaker 2: a safe space and in your care and knowing that
34:03
Speaker 2: even though they're deceased, that they are yours again, right
34:07
Speaker 2: like that, Do you have a place to mourn them?
34:09
Speaker 2: You have a place or a body that can be
34:11
Speaker 2: cremated and you can spread their ashes, You can have
34:14
Speaker 2: a place where they're buried and you're able to visit.
34:16
Speaker 2: It's it's an honor, it's a respect thing, and it's
34:19
Speaker 2: a it's a way to say you're safe. Now, we're safe.
34:22
Speaker 2: Now you know, we know where you are. And so
34:25
Speaker 2: without that, I think it becomes impossible to start to
34:29
Speaker 2: find ways to move forward, not on but Ford, because
34:33
Speaker 2: you're constantly saying, but I have no answers, I have nothing,
34:36
Speaker 2: and I don't even have their body.
34:38
Speaker 3: I feel like I've said this eight thousand times, but
34:40
Speaker 3: I always come back to Julie Murray and how she
34:43
Speaker 3: talks about her open ended trauma. Not knowing where more is,
34:47
Speaker 3: not knowing what tragedy or you know, what heinous act
34:52
Speaker 3: befel her sister, and not having a place to be
34:55
Speaker 3: able to go and warn her aside from where they
34:58
Speaker 3: believe whatever may have trend fired right, and to be
35:01
Speaker 3: able to go to that site like that's really heartbreaking.
35:04
Speaker 3: You're going to a site where you think perhaps your
35:07
Speaker 3: sister was abducted or maybe got into a car with
35:10
Speaker 3: somebody who had some kind of, you know, some kind
35:16
Speaker 3: of impure motives, and then that is the place that
35:19
Speaker 3: you have to go. You don't have somewhere where her
35:22
Speaker 3: body lay at rest, or you've scattered her ashes. I
35:25
Speaker 3: just can't even imagine. And then when you multiply that
35:28
Speaker 3: you've got two brothers in this case, I just feel
35:31
Speaker 3: sick to my stomach even thinking about what that must
35:34
Speaker 3: feel like for the family. So there probably isn't a
35:38
Speaker 3: whole lot more to talk about in regards to Chucky's story,
35:41
Speaker 3: since it seems like it was just a tragic case
35:44
Speaker 3: of him wandering off and dying of exposure. In spite
35:47
Speaker 3: of the remarkable circumstances of two brothers from the same
35:50
Speaker 3: family disappearing over a decade apart, it's safe to assume
35:55
Speaker 3: there isn't any connection between the two cases. Well, there
35:58
Speaker 3: are a few eeriesome hilarities, the whole situation is nothing
36:02
Speaker 3: more than a one in a billion coincidence. However, even
36:06
Speaker 3: though there isn't much mystery in regards to Chucky's disappearance,
36:10
Speaker 3: the same cannot be said for Michael's case, as there's
36:13
Speaker 3: definitely something very fishy going on there. The details here
36:17
Speaker 3: are a bit reminiscent of our previous episodes about the
36:20
Speaker 3: Kurtsova case, which also involved a teenage boy going missing
36:25
Speaker 3: while attending a party and partaking an underage drinking. In
36:29
Speaker 3: both cases, you get the sense that there are at
36:32
Speaker 3: least a few people who are not telling the full
36:34
Speaker 3: truth about what happened. But unfortunately, it doesn't look like
36:38
Speaker 3: investigators had very much evidence to work with here.
36:42
Speaker 2: No, not at all. I mean they do in Chucky's case,
36:45
Speaker 2: there's a lot of information there. They know that there
36:47
Speaker 2: was a problem with the snowmobile, they know that he
36:50
Speaker 2: was separated from them. They found the snowmobile, and like
36:53
Speaker 2: you said, though, at that point, the weather kind of
36:56
Speaker 2: becomes their worst enemy, and it became Chucky's worst enemy. Two,
36:59
Speaker 2: that rapid snowfall after his disappearance would cover any kind
37:03
Speaker 2: of evidence and tracks. It also would cover any body.
37:06
Speaker 2: The one thing that's very odd is that Chucky had
37:08
Speaker 2: to be wrapped up so tightly with all these warm
37:11
Speaker 2: clothes that would have kept him, you know, dry and
37:14
Speaker 2: warm in the snow. But and they don't find that either.
37:17
Speaker 2: But with Michael, that one's the one where I go,
37:21
Speaker 2: someone is very knowledgeable of something, right, like who was
37:25
Speaker 2: around him? Were there any issues at that party? Someone
37:30
Speaker 2: could have seen a car pull over and speak to
37:32
Speaker 2: this young man. Someone could have watched him walk off
37:35
Speaker 2: the road and into the woods. I mean, I feel
37:38
Speaker 2: like there's someone who either intentionally is not telling information
37:42
Speaker 2: or isn't aware that they witnessed information that needs to
37:46
Speaker 2: be shared. Because Michael was fifteen years old, he was
37:50
Speaker 2: supposed to be with a group of friends, he was
37:53
Speaker 2: drinking underage, like a normal teenage kid does, and I believe,
37:59
Speaker 2: like I said, but I think he got separated and
38:01
Speaker 2: became either overwhelmed, scared, convinced that there was a better
38:05
Speaker 2: option for him, and either got in the car with somebody,
38:09
Speaker 2: was met with foul play somewhere, or who knows. I mean, maybe,
38:13
Speaker 2: like Chucky, he stumbled in the woods, and who knows
38:16
Speaker 2: if someone puts me in his drink, or if something
38:19
Speaker 2: more sinister happened at the party that later affected him.
38:22
Speaker 3: I just don't know if I'm inclined to believe, and
38:25
Speaker 3: I really want to hear both of your thoughts that
38:28
Speaker 3: these fifteen year old kids would have been able to
38:31
Speaker 3: keep a secret if they were somehow responsible or responsible
38:35
Speaker 3: for disposing of his body in the aftermath, to fifteen
38:39
Speaker 3: year old kids really have the mental wherewithal to be
38:42
Speaker 3: able to keep a secret of that magnitude, not only
38:45
Speaker 3: at that time, but moving forward this many years, it
38:49
Speaker 3: just seems likely to me if they themselves were responsible,
38:53
Speaker 3: or if somebody at that party was responsible, somebody would
38:56
Speaker 3: have cracked by Now.
38:58
Speaker 2: I don't think I don't think they responsible. I'm with you, Joels.
39:01
Speaker 2: I think they were fifteen. Like we talked about earlier,
39:04
Speaker 2: I think they were isolated on this idea of we're
39:06
Speaker 2: having fun, we're being rebellious, we're being adventurous, let's get
39:09
Speaker 2: around our bikes and go like they're just being kids.
39:12
Speaker 2: I think someone though, maybe like I said, a witness
39:15
Speaker 2: or a passer by, or somebody either is not sharing
39:20
Speaker 2: information out of fear of not wanting to be involved,
39:23
Speaker 2: or doesn't really know that they witnessed something. I don't
39:27
Speaker 2: see where Michael could just completely disappear and no one
39:31
Speaker 2: saw this fifteen year old kid after he got separated
39:34
Speaker 2: from that group.
39:35
Speaker 1: Well, in the Kurt Silva case, I do know that
39:37
Speaker 1: there are some people who have likely been able to
39:39
Speaker 1: keep a secret for several years about what happened to them.
39:41
Speaker 1: But I think most of those people are grown adults,
39:44
Speaker 1: because I know Kurt was attending a party with mostly
39:47
Speaker 1: older people, and there weren't fifteen year olds fifteen year
39:50
Speaker 1: olds there. So yeah, it seems unlikely that people who
39:53
Speaker 1: are around Michael's age would have been able to stay
39:55
Speaker 1: silent for over twenty years. Now.
39:58
Speaker 3: I always think of like the you know who put
40:00
Speaker 3: Belle in the witch Elm case and the kids discover
40:03
Speaker 3: this body in the tree and they're all, I think
40:05
Speaker 3: like around teenage age, but like maybe thirteen ish, and
40:09
Speaker 3: they're all like, making this packed, We're not going to
40:12
Speaker 3: tell anybody, and then by the time one of them
40:14
Speaker 3: gets home, he spills the beans.
40:15
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, remember that.
40:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's like this poor kid just couldn't keep it
40:20
Speaker 3: in because it would literally torment you. And at that age,
40:23
Speaker 3: you just don't have the capacity emotionally to be able
40:26
Speaker 3: to keep a secret like that without it tearing you
40:29
Speaker 3: absolutely to shreds. So I think you're right, Ash. I
40:33
Speaker 3: think there probably was somebody either opportunistically who spotted him
40:37
Speaker 3: on the road, or maybe there was somebody at that party.
40:40
Speaker 3: It was a graduation party, somebody who was in their
40:43
Speaker 3: early twenties. There's often people in you know, small towns
40:47
Speaker 3: and stuff. When you've got a graduation party. You've got
40:49
Speaker 3: those kids that graduated years ago and they're still hanging
40:52
Speaker 3: around and they're going to these types of parties. So
40:55
Speaker 3: who knows who may have spotted him and seen an
40:57
Speaker 3: opportunity Because he was clearly intoxicated, and this wasn't somebody
41:01
Speaker 3: who was a regular drinker. This was his first time
41:04
Speaker 3: being exposed to this, So somebody may just decided to
41:07
Speaker 3: follow the boys and see if there was an opportunity
41:10
Speaker 3: to take one of them.
41:12
Speaker 1: All we know is that Michael was biking with three friends,
41:15
Speaker 1: got separated from them and vanished, and all that was
41:18
Speaker 1: found were his bicycle and his muddy sneakers. Since the
41:21
Speaker 1: Little Sissitna River was shallow and flowed downstream towards a logjam,
41:25
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say that Michael's body would
41:27
Speaker 1: have been recovered if it had been in there. I
41:30
Speaker 1: know that Chris expressed his belief that the bicycle found
41:32
Speaker 1: in the river may not have been the same one
41:34
Speaker 1: Michael was riding that night. And what's weird is that
41:37
Speaker 1: while all the sources I found state that Michael borrowed
41:40
Speaker 1: the bike, none of them specify who he borrowed it from.
41:44
Speaker 1: If he borrowed the bike from Chris, then yes, it
41:46
Speaker 1: would lend more credence to his opinion that it was
41:48
Speaker 1: a different bicycle. Otherwise, I'm not so sure Chris is correct.
41:53
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's possible that another bicycle could
41:55
Speaker 1: have wound up in that water for completely unrelated reasons.
41:59
Speaker 1: But it seemed it was like too much of a
42:00
Speaker 1: coincidence that michael sneakers were found near an airstrip only
42:04
Speaker 1: two hundred yards from the river. We probably can't be
42:07
Speaker 1: one hut to percent certain those shoes actually belonged to Michael,
42:10
Speaker 1: but since they were his brand and his size, they
42:13
Speaker 1: probably did belong to him. And it can't overlook the
42:16
Speaker 1: fact that the bicycle and the sneakers were found in
42:18
Speaker 1: such close proximity to each other, you know.
42:21
Speaker 2: And we also, Chris could be right. Chris could say, hey,
42:23
Speaker 2: that wasn't the bike he took with him, But remember
42:26
Speaker 2: this is a graduation party. There's a bunch of kids there.
42:29
Speaker 2: They're all kind of like jumping on their bike after
42:31
Speaker 2: they've been drinking and riding off. He could have easily
42:33
Speaker 2: grabbed somebody else's bike. And also, like you said, that
42:37
Speaker 2: bike was found by those shoes that his family said,
42:39
Speaker 2: Yes that's the brand, Yes that's the size. Those resemble
42:42
Speaker 2: shoes that Michael had. Remember they were found by that
42:46
Speaker 2: on that private property by an airstrip. Is there any
42:50
Speaker 2: crazy illusion that someone was on that airstrip and took
42:54
Speaker 2: him from there.
42:55
Speaker 1: It's possible, like maybe if he got lost and rid
42:58
Speaker 1: off the road somewhere, then maybe he could have cross
43:00
Speaker 1: passed with someone near that airstrip who decided to harm him.
43:04
Speaker 1: But of course it was like the middle of the night,
43:06
Speaker 1: like the wee hours of the morning, and I don't
43:07
Speaker 1: know what the odds are that he would just happen
43:09
Speaker 1: to cross pass with someone at that random spot at
43:12
Speaker 1: that hour of the morning. So if he was harmed,
43:14
Speaker 1: it seems more logical to me that maybe just someone
43:17
Speaker 1: followed him from the party, or someone just happened to
43:19
Speaker 1: spot a while he was riding alone and took advantage
43:22
Speaker 1: of the situation.
43:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. When I heard about the airstrip and
43:26
Speaker 2: it's on private property, I was like, wait, how did
43:28
Speaker 2: we get there? But you're right, if someone was simply
43:30
Speaker 2: following him and he took a short cut across that property,
43:33
Speaker 2: or if they took him to this private property because
43:36
Speaker 2: they were away from public view, that's a possibility as well.
43:39
Speaker 3: I always think of I can't remember the killer's name,
43:41
Speaker 3: but the Butcher Baker killer from Alaska, the one that
43:44
Speaker 3: killed all of those sex workers. Do you both know
43:46
Speaker 3: that story?
43:47
Speaker 1: Robert Hanson?
43:48
Speaker 3: I think so. There was a movie about him, see
43:51
Speaker 3: Nicholas Cage was in it.
43:53
Speaker 1: Oh was that the one called Frozen Ground? Yeah?
43:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I.
43:57
Speaker 1: Think that is Robert Hanson. Yeah.
43:59
Speaker 3: He would like fly them in his helicopter or plane
44:03
Speaker 3: or something like that and then basically hunt them, wouldn't he.
44:07
Speaker 1: I think so, yes, Yes, it was kind of like
44:09
Speaker 1: a most Dangerous Game scenario where it was part of
44:11
Speaker 1: the fund to like let them go and then try
44:13
Speaker 1: to hunt them and catch them.
44:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's terrifying. So I thought about that as soon
44:17
Speaker 3: as I heard airstrip. But it sounds like the people
44:20
Speaker 3: whose property were it was on were very quick to
44:23
Speaker 3: turn over the evidence of the shoes, so it seems
44:25
Speaker 3: likely that they were not involved, And those sneakers are
44:28
Speaker 3: definitely the most baffling element to this case for me.
44:32
Speaker 3: If Michael was murdered, it's odd that whoever was responsible
44:36
Speaker 3: would get rid of his body, would just leave the
44:38
Speaker 3: shoes out in the open like that. I mean in
44:41
Speaker 3: cases where many teenagers go missing. The first inclination from
44:45
Speaker 3: the authorities is to push forward the theory that they
44:48
Speaker 3: simply ran away and would turn up eventually. But when
44:51
Speaker 3: the victim's shoes turn up, then that makes it a
44:54
Speaker 3: whole lot easier to discount the runaway theory. I have
44:57
Speaker 3: a feeling that the shoes were deliberately planted at the
45:00
Speaker 3: airstrip for a reason. We know that the son of
45:03
Speaker 3: the airstrip's owner attended the same party Michael did and
45:06
Speaker 3: notify the police about the shoes, but no miche else
45:09
Speaker 3: is known about this person. However, I do have to
45:11
Speaker 3: wonder if there's any significance to the shoes being left
45:14
Speaker 3: at this particular location.
45:17
Speaker 2: Yes, me too, I want to know why and how
45:20
Speaker 2: did they get there. I am not suspicious of the
45:22
Speaker 2: airstrip owner's son. I mean he I think as a
45:26
Speaker 2: friend and someone who was at that party. It's like
45:28
Speaker 2: Michael was wearing those shoes. Michael's missing, and now they're
45:31
Speaker 2: these weird shoes found on my dad's property. Like, I
45:35
Speaker 2: am grateful he went to the police and told them
45:37
Speaker 2: about it. But like I, like I said, a minute ago,
45:40
Speaker 2: like what happened did someone watch Michael pedal across this
45:44
Speaker 2: property and intercept him. Or was it something like you said,
45:49
Speaker 2: Was it planted? Was it somebody who said, hmm, I'm
45:52
Speaker 2: going to take this bicycle and these shoes and get
45:54
Speaker 2: them in this location and try to write a new narrative.
45:58
Speaker 1: So from the outset, it sounds like the Palmer family
46:01
Speaker 1: was always very skeptical about the story from Michael's three
46:03
Speaker 1: friends that he became separated from them and that they
46:06
Speaker 1: waited around for him a little bit at the seven
46:08
Speaker 1: to eleven, and after assuming that Michael just rode home,
46:11
Speaker 1: they left. The irony, of course, is that the exact
46:15
Speaker 1: same thing pretty much happened to Michael's brother a decade later,
46:18
Speaker 1: as he also went missing after becoming separated from a
46:21
Speaker 1: group of friends. But there's a big difference between an
46:24
Speaker 1: occurrence like this happening in the wilderness and a residential road.
46:28
Speaker 1: It would not surprise me at all if something did
46:30
Speaker 1: happen to Michael during or after the party he attended. However,
46:34
Speaker 1: the big problem is that there seemed to be a
46:35
Speaker 1: lot of rumors and innuendo about things which might have
46:38
Speaker 1: taken place that night, but no hard.
46:40
Speaker 2: Facts, And that's the problem with these unsolved these unsolved
46:45
Speaker 2: missing persons cases, right, is that everyone wants to know,
46:49
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to think, you know, do I know anything?
46:52
Speaker 2: Can we figure this out? And so especially when you're
46:55
Speaker 2: talking about someone in your town goes missing, that's exactly
46:58
Speaker 2: what starts these these kind of couch detectives that want
47:02
Speaker 2: to know what happened. And then you had these people
47:04
Speaker 2: like that one kid who made up a truth of
47:08
Speaker 2: what had happened and ended up really just devastating the
47:10
Speaker 2: family and the investigation because it wasn't true. But this
47:15
Speaker 2: is I don't know, it's just sad. Michael left a
47:18
Speaker 2: party where a lot of people saw him and his
47:21
Speaker 2: mother was waiting for him to come home, and he
47:24
Speaker 2: never showed up. It is mind boggling.
47:27
Speaker 3: His first party too, like his first taste of freedom
47:30
Speaker 3: and getting to go out and socialize, and then this happens.
47:32
Speaker 3: It's just so sad. It sounds like two private investigators
47:36
Speaker 3: hired by the Palmer family felt they were onto something
47:40
Speaker 3: when they looked into the possibility of a cover up,
47:43
Speaker 3: but no specific details have been released publicly. I see
47:46
Speaker 3: no indication that any of Michael's friends or anyone who
47:50
Speaker 3: attended the party have been caught in any serious lies,
47:53
Speaker 3: aside from the young man who claimed he saw Michael
47:56
Speaker 3: being murdered and thrown off the bridge before he confessed
47:59
Speaker 3: to making the story up. Investigators did interview a lot
48:03
Speaker 3: of people who were at that party, but didn't seem
48:05
Speaker 3: to learn anything incriminating. One investigator was even quoted as saying,
48:10
Speaker 3: so far everyone that was listed as a suspect has
48:13
Speaker 3: passed with flying colors. When researching his original Trail Went
48:17
Speaker 3: Cold episode, Robin came across a blog which stated that
48:21
Speaker 3: the three friends Michael had been riding with were successfully polygraphed. However,
48:26
Speaker 3: Robin couldn't find any official news source to confirm this,
48:30
Speaker 3: so that info may be inaccurate. Even so, polygraphs are unreliable,
48:34
Speaker 3: so passing one shouldn't automatically clear anybody. But let's not
48:39
Speaker 3: forget that all these people were teenagers, who are usually
48:42
Speaker 3: not very adept at orchestrating cover ups and sticking to
48:45
Speaker 3: their stories. If Michael's death is somehow related to something
48:49
Speaker 3: which happened during or after that party, I'd have to
48:52
Speaker 3: think that there are a few people out there who
48:54
Speaker 3: know the full truth.
48:56
Speaker 2: I would think someone would know at least enough information
48:59
Speaker 2: to get police looking in the right direction. What is
49:02
Speaker 2: interesting here is that you have this party, and many
49:05
Speaker 2: ways it probably was a massive distraction to the story
49:09
Speaker 2: of what really happened as well if it had nothing
49:11
Speaker 2: to do with the party, and yet all we know
49:14
Speaker 2: is that Michael was last at this party. It does
49:17
Speaker 2: take incredible manpower and incredible kind of dissection of everybody
49:22
Speaker 2: who is there, interviewing all of them, trying to dispel
49:26
Speaker 2: rumors that have started, and like, oh, did you see
49:28
Speaker 2: so and so looking at him? Did you see so
49:31
Speaker 2: and so was angry with him that night? Did you
49:32
Speaker 2: see this in that and so? All of those kind
49:36
Speaker 2: of observations of saying, we know Michael was last here,
49:39
Speaker 2: and here's what could point to somebody. If that's not
49:42
Speaker 2: what happened, think of all the energy and manpower and
49:46
Speaker 2: attention that would have been focused in that direction when
49:49
Speaker 2: it may not be linked to the party at all.
49:52
Speaker 1: I don't discount the possibility that Michael's three friends no
49:56
Speaker 1: more than they're saying, but it's not implausible that Michael
49:59
Speaker 1: really could have become separated from them and then cross
50:02
Speaker 1: paths with an unknown individual who killed him. How we're
50:05
Speaker 1: talking about a kid riding a bicycle in the middle
50:07
Speaker 1: of the night, So he also could have been the
50:09
Speaker 1: victim of a random hit and run accident and the
50:11
Speaker 1: perpetrator hit his body to cover up the crime. These
50:15
Speaker 1: are all fairly interesting theories, but no hard evidence points
50:18
Speaker 1: to any of them. However, the one thing which does
50:21
Speaker 1: seem certain is that Michael probably did not survive that night.
50:25
Speaker 1: All families who have a loved one go missing deserve answers,
50:28
Speaker 1: but this is doubly true for the Palmer family since
50:31
Speaker 1: another sibling would also go missing years later. Even worse,
50:35
Speaker 1: Chucky himself had become a father by this point and
50:38
Speaker 1: left behind three children. However, well, Chucky's disappearance was likely
50:42
Speaker 1: nothing more than a case of tragic misfortune. Someone else
50:45
Speaker 1: may be responsible for what happened to Michael and what
50:48
Speaker 1: or more. People out there may know exactly what happens
50:51
Speaker 1: but have never talked. So if you have any information
50:54
Speaker 1: about the unsolved disappearances a Michael Palmer or Chucky Palmer,
50:58
Speaker 1: please contact the Alaska State true A nine oh seven
51:01
Speaker 1: seven four five two one three one Jules Ashley any
51:05
Speaker 1: final thoughts on the story.
51:07
Speaker 2: Basically, what I've been saying this entire case, you have
51:10
Speaker 2: a family who suffered the unthinkable. They went to bed
51:16
Speaker 2: one night, woke up and never saw their fifteen year
51:19
Speaker 2: old child again. They never saw their fifteen year old
51:22
Speaker 2: brother again. And then they figure out ways to pick
51:25
Speaker 2: up the pieces. Yes, a marriage dissolves, that happens to
51:29
Speaker 2: a lot of families, right, But they move forward and
51:32
Speaker 2: they're trying to make more family memories. A step dad,
51:35
Speaker 2: a brother, and another brother go out to have a
51:39
Speaker 2: normal vacation, and like you said, CHUCKI had three little
51:43
Speaker 2: girls waiting at home for him to come back to
51:45
Speaker 2: and so they just go off on this normal trip
51:48
Speaker 2: and he never returns home either. What breaks my heart
51:53
Speaker 2: the most in his case is that they do not
51:56
Speaker 2: have the remains of either of their boys, and that
51:59
Speaker 2: leaves the family saying, if they're not with us, where
52:02
Speaker 2: are they. It would be my prayer that at this point,
52:05
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty obvious that both boys met their
52:08
Speaker 2: demise in the wilderness and or at somebody else's hands.
52:12
Speaker 2: But if their remains could be found, if there could
52:15
Speaker 2: be a space where the family got to say they're
52:18
Speaker 2: safe with us, I feel like it would be such
52:21
Speaker 2: an incredibly healing experience for the family. Chris is I
52:26
Speaker 2: mean as abrasive as his message was that you guys
52:29
Speaker 2: shared later, like I feel his anger and his resentment
52:33
Speaker 2: and his just disappointments so much. How does this happen
52:35
Speaker 2: once to us, much less twice? And now you want
52:38
Speaker 2: me to move forward with normal behaviors like eating and
52:41
Speaker 2: living my life. I mean, my brothers are gone. It's
52:44
Speaker 2: so heartbreaking. I pray that Chucky's daughters grew up knowing
52:49
Speaker 2: how incredible their father was, knowing that you know their
52:53
Speaker 2: family is strong, and that they are strong, and that
52:56
Speaker 2: their life turned out to be beautiful. Because this poor
52:59
Speaker 2: little family has been through so much. So if anyone
53:02
Speaker 2: knows anything, please please contact authorities.
53:06
Speaker 3: This is one of the saddest cases I think that
53:08
Speaker 3: we've ever covered, just because of the catastrophic emotional impact.
53:13
Speaker 3: It's like this ripple effect that has affected the lives
53:17
Speaker 3: of so many different people, especially when you've got little
53:20
Speaker 3: girls who are in the picture. You've got these little
53:23
Speaker 3: kids that are growing up without a father. They're also
53:25
Speaker 3: growing up without an uncle. They're being told about this
53:28
Speaker 3: uncle that they're never going to get to meet, and
53:31
Speaker 3: it seems very clear what happened to Chucky. What is
53:34
Speaker 3: inexplicable is that his body has never found. But like
53:37
Speaker 3: Robin said, there's been so many cases where somebody's disappeared
53:40
Speaker 3: in the wilderness. They've done these extensive searches, they've combed
53:43
Speaker 3: over areas, and then an area that's previously been searched,
53:47
Speaker 3: the body is then found years later, And I hope
53:50
Speaker 3: and I pray that that is what happens with Chuck's
53:53
Speaker 3: remains and with Michael's remains. Michael's case is really confounding
53:58
Speaker 3: for me because I really have no idea what happened.
54:01
Speaker 3: What I don't think is that these fifteen year old
54:04
Speaker 3: kids are responsible. I think maybe they were kind of
54:07
Speaker 3: lackadaisical as they were riding their bikes back and maybe
54:10
Speaker 3: weren't paying attention and Michael either stopped or, like Robin said,
54:15
Speaker 3: there was a hit and run. So I think it
54:18
Speaker 3: is possible that somebody could have followed them from the party,
54:21
Speaker 3: could have spotted him at the party, could have just
54:23
Speaker 3: been opportunistic and came upon him and he was in
54:26
Speaker 3: this weakened state, and maybe had stopped on the side
54:29
Speaker 3: of the road and did him harm. I do think
54:31
Speaker 3: that the bike and the shoes were placed at that
54:33
Speaker 3: airstrip as like a red herring or some kind of misdirection.
54:37
Speaker 3: But I would hope that if anybody does have any
54:40
Speaker 3: information about Michael's case this many years later, that they
54:43
Speaker 3: would come forward and share what they know, because this
54:46
Speaker 3: family deserves so much to find out what happened to
54:50
Speaker 3: both of these boys. Well, both of these they would
54:53
Speaker 3: be men now, and it's just so sad that they've
54:56
Speaker 3: had to go their whole lives without knowing where their body.
55:00
Speaker 3: I'm bringing their remains home.
55:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can think of many other missing person's cases
55:04
Speaker 1: where siblings disappear together, where families lose one or more
55:08
Speaker 1: members at the same time. But I did a lot
55:11
Speaker 1: of research and I cannot find very many, if any
55:14
Speaker 1: other ones like this, where you have two brothers from
55:16
Speaker 1: the same family go missing over ten years apart, at
55:19
Speaker 1: different locations, under different circumstances, and even though there's no
55:23
Speaker 1: connection between the two disappearances, there are enough eerie coincidences
55:27
Speaker 1: that it just feels like, what has this family done
55:30
Speaker 1: to deserve this? And of course we have one case
55:32
Speaker 1: where if it was just Chucky Palmer, then there really
55:35
Speaker 1: wouldn't be much to discuss because we see a lot
55:37
Speaker 1: of cases like his every year where people just go
55:41
Speaker 1: into the wilderness and vanish and are never found. But
55:43
Speaker 1: what made his stories stand out is that he had
55:46
Speaker 1: a brother go missing ten years earlier, and his case
55:49
Speaker 1: is definitely not as cut and dry, because there's no
55:52
Speaker 1: way that Michael just wandered off or fell into a
55:55
Speaker 1: river somewhere or died of exposure. It definitely seems likely
55:59
Speaker 1: that he was victim of foul play, But I have
56:01
Speaker 1: no idea who could have done it, and I have
56:03
Speaker 1: no idea the circumstances which led to Michael disappearing. We
56:08
Speaker 1: have a lot of vague information. I know we heard
56:10
Speaker 1: that there was a private investigator who heard some rumors,
56:13
Speaker 1: and a private investigator who got frightened by what they
56:16
Speaker 1: were seeing and decided to leave towns. So you can
56:19
Speaker 1: only imagine the rumors and hearsay that have flown around,
56:22
Speaker 1: but who knows if any of them are true. But yeah,
56:24
Speaker 1: the Palmer family is just very strong to have to
56:27
Speaker 1: deal with all this trauma. Like we said, Chucky left
56:30
Speaker 1: behind three daughters, and of course Chris he lost two brothers,
56:34
Speaker 1: one of whom went missing while he was staying behind
56:37
Speaker 1: at the cabin, so it's just too much for one
56:39
Speaker 1: family to have to deal with. And at the very least,
56:42
Speaker 1: I do hope that Chucky's remains are found someday in
56:45
Speaker 1: the woods and that the family does get answers about
56:48
Speaker 1: what happened to Michael, because that is more of a
56:50
Speaker 1: baffling mystery, and I sense that someone out there may
56:53
Speaker 1: know the truth about what happened to them, And all
56:56
Speaker 1: I really want is for the Palmer family to get
56:58
Speaker 1: the remains back of two of these young men and
57:01
Speaker 1: finally give them a proper burial.