Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 203. GC Talks with Gonzalo Obelleiro: Cultivating Awareness that People Experience the World Differently

Transcript

203. GC Talks with Gonzalo Obelleiro: Cultivating Awareness that People Experience the World Differently · Be A Global Citizen!

• 0:05
  Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
• 0:08
  explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
• 0:11
  value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm
• 0:15
  Ahsoka, researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussion,
• 0:18
  stories and insights on this podcast to be valuable and
• 0:21
  inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
• 0:24
  committed to living a contributive life.
• 0:26
  Enjoy. I'm Gonzalo Bellevo.
• 0:34
  I'm Assistant Professor of Curriculum Studies at DePaul
• 0:37
  University and I'm joining from Dallas, TX.
• 0:44
  Hi, Gonzalo, thank you so much for joining the podcast.
• 0:48
  I'm so excited to have you. You know, I feel like a special
• 0:52
  connection with, with you since we're both graduates from SOCA
• 0:56
  University of America and we are separated by 10 years.
• 1:01
  And so you, you were the first graduating class of Soka
• 1:05
  University of America. And then that makes me the 11th
• 1:07
  graduating class. And just, you know, to make it
• 1:10
  even better, the DePaul program that you you teach at you we're
• 1:17
  my professor there. So I got to to be a student
• 1:20
  under you. And specifically, you know, I
• 1:23
  think one of the one of the courses that I took was
• 1:26
  Education for Global citizenship.
• 1:29
  We talk a lot about cosmopolitanism and really went
• 1:33
  into the philosophical kind of like, you know, like roots of a
• 1:37
  lot of those conversations and discourses.
• 1:39
  And it was, yeah, so wonderful to to have that opportunity and
• 1:43
  now to kind of circle back and, you know, have this opportunity
• 1:47
  to like learn how you got to where you are as a educator, as
• 1:51
  a professor. I think this is going to be
• 1:53
  really exciting. And yeah, I'm looking forward to
• 1:57
  learning more about about your journey.
• 1:59
  So feel free to, to start, you know, at at any point because
• 2:03
  this is, it's not just about the academic influences, although
• 2:06
  I'm sure there's many, but also some of the personal influences
• 2:10
  that really brought you to, to being an educator.
• 2:13
  So I'll, I'll let you share at whatever point you feel is like
• 2:16
  best. Yeah.
• 2:19
  Yeah, yeah, that yes, I teach that class educated for global
• 2:25
  citizenship in the public training education for global
• 2:29
  citizenship program that we have at the poll.
• 2:32
  That's the, that's the focus of, of my, my expertise, my research
• 2:38
  is on the philosophy of, of global citizenship education.
• 2:43
  I was born in Argentina and, and grew up there and I always felt
• 2:52
  that the idea of identifying with some of the national
• 2:59
  culture, it was a little strange to me, you know, even though my,
• 3:11
  my life for like practical purposes was so entirely rooted
• 3:15
  in the local. It wasn't.
• 3:17
  I didn't travel anywhere. I didn't have friends that from
• 3:21
  other countries or, you know, I mean, of course I had access to
• 3:25
  the world through the media and stuff.
• 3:27
  But to me, the idea of like that we are citizens of the world
• 3:34
  always, you know, without, without having that that term as
• 3:38
  as a way of naming it, but it always felt like the most
• 3:42
  natural thing. And when Sokka University of
• 3:49
  America was going to be established, this was in so it
• 3:55
  opened in 2001, the undergraduate program in in Los
• 4:00
  Angeles, which is where we went. I, you know, jumped at the
• 4:07
  opportunity to, you know, live, live abroad and, and have an
• 4:16
  experience of an education with this specific focus of global
• 4:21
  citizenship and sort of, and, and the university founded by
• 4:26
  Dezekui Keda, who I admire and, and yeah, so I, it wasn't one, I
• 4:37
  went, I moved to California and I was at the time, I was a
• 4:44
  student of graphic design in Argentina.
• 4:47
  And I thought like, I'm going to go to California.
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  I'm going to take a break from. I was already working, you know,
• 4:55
  I was still unconscious about already working and as a graphic
• 4:58
  designer. And I'll take a break from my
• 5:00
  education, professional life and this career.
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  And and then after four years, I'd come back and continued.
• 5:09
  But the experience was so powerful, the educational
• 5:17
  experience of, you know, going being there Soka University of
• 5:21
  America, that I felt I have to. So it was, it was clearly was
• 5:31
  something was going on, something powerful happened.
• 5:36
  And it wasn't just me. I saw it with, you know, other
• 5:40
  people, my classmates, and we even had these conversations.
• 5:44
  We recognized something really special is happening here.
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  But I didn't have a way of explaining it even to myself.
• 5:59
  So I, I decided to, you know, continue my studies and go to
• 6:05
  Graduate School for philosophy of education as a way of being
• 6:14
  able to explain, find, find, you know, articulate, explaining
• 6:19
  what it is that, that, that, that kind of education, what
• 6:25
  that experience was for me. And then, you know, everything
• 6:34
  is going to flow, flows from there.
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  You know, you're going, you know, you get spending all this
• 6:42
  time reading these things and being able to talk to people
• 6:46
  established in the field and learning ways of thinking and,
• 6:51
  and, you know, particular language.
• 6:54
  And so, you know, after a while you get a degree, you know, got
• 6:58
  my PhD and then, you know, then I was lucky to get this
• 7:07
  opportunity to teach at the pole, where we have faculty and
• 7:13
  a program focused on this idea of violent creating education
• 7:18
  for global citizenship. But for me, it's been all along
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  mostly it's a journey of making sense for myself what that
• 7:36
  experience is. And I and I, I identify as a
• 7:38
  student more than than anything else.
• 7:46
  Yeah. So.
• 7:50
  Wow, thank you so much, Gonzalo. And you know, if, if I may, I, I
• 7:55
  just, I can tell that what you experienced at Soka University
• 7:59
  of America, especially being part of the founding class, it
• 8:02
  was deeply profound because it brought together young people,
• 8:08
  right? College age students in
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  different parts of the world to do something that really hadn't
• 8:13
  been done before, right? Bringing together people to
• 8:16
  really unite under this idea of global citizenship and to
• 8:22
  channel their, they're like youthful aspirations and dreams
• 8:27
  towards making the world a better place.
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  So had this altruistic flame that I don't really think we see
• 8:33
  that kind of enshrined in the mission statement of the
• 8:35
  university, at least, you know, from what I can tell.
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  And so, you know, I kind of wanted to and, and, and also
• 8:41
  that makes sense that like, you know, your, your academic
• 8:44
  pursuits have been really trying to unpack what happened right in
• 8:49
  that, in those formative years of your, your college, you know,
• 8:53
  experience. And, and I think that, you know,
• 8:55
  there's something really beautiful of having that, that
• 8:57
  focus and really getting to like the center or the core of that.
• 9:02
  Because, you know, again, the mission of Soka University of
• 9:06
  America is to foster global citizens, right, committed to
• 9:09
  living a contributive life. And so your research really
• 9:13
  centers on that question of like, what, what does it really
• 9:15
  mean by to be this citizen of the world?
• 9:19
  But, you know, I wanted to go back to what you mentioned like
• 9:22
  very early on, right? You said you were born and
• 9:25
  raised in Argentina, but you said that there was something
• 9:28
  about just the kind of like national identity that just
• 9:31
  didn't quite sit right with you. And I wanted to ask, like, what
• 9:36
  was it about that that really didn't feel right?
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  And maybe in terms of like how you like, like what, what is
• 9:45
  what was your conception of like being Argentinian and what were
• 9:49
  some of the ways in which you pushed back on it early on?
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  And then how did that change when you then entered into this
• 9:55
  environment at SUA where suddenly maybe you were the only
• 9:58
  Argentinian or maybe one of very few?
• 10:03
  Yeah, I mean, Argentina culturally shares with the
• 10:13
  United States, for example, the a sense of kind of an
• 10:17
  exceptionalism. And I don't know if it's this is
• 10:21
  a universal thing. All the cultures are like that.
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  But this idea that, that we are special somehow, you know, that,
• 10:30
  that, that you know, and you would, you would think that it's
• 10:38
  easier for someone from a culture like the United States
• 10:44
  and 20th 21st century to feel that way.
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  Being, you know, the, the, the culture of the country has been
• 10:48
  most successful in a way and in the history of humanity
• 10:53
  militarily, economically, And I mean, in, in terms of, you know,
• 10:58
  being generators of culture. And you will think that if it
• 11:03
  would be more natural to have the sense of exceptionalism than
• 11:08
  than a cultural country like Argentina.
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  But, you know, the fact that the, that, you know, the global
• 11:18
  accomplishments of the culture are, you know, modest compared
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  to other countries, that that didn't make any difference.
• 11:26
  There was this sense that we are special somehow, you know, and
• 11:31
  I, I just thought it was kind of, I don't know, like silly.
• 11:35
  What why? It's not, you know, And yeah.
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  And I just, I just got the sense that it is so arbitrary.
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  I didn't, I didn't have the sense per SE that there's
• 11:51
  something wrong about being a nationalist.
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  And it wasn't that I had a kind of a moral commitment against,
• 12:05
  you know, some kind of toxic forms of nationalism, the kinds
• 12:08
  of the, this ideology that that fuels war or fuels xenophobia or
• 12:18
  I, I, I, I mean, I, I, I, I came to adopt the states for that and
• 12:25
  a moral position against that. But the the first thing for me,
• 12:30
  the more natural thing was the sense that this is so arbitrary
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  that you know, why, Why should I, why should being, having been
• 12:39
  born here should be the most important aspect of my identity,
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  you know? Yeah, yeah, I, I resonate with
• 12:54
  that because, you know, having like for myself, been born and
• 12:59
  raised in the US, it was almost as if like, you know, our level
• 13:03
  of exceptionalism was, was so great to the point where we
• 13:08
  didn't even feel the need to talk about or even know the
• 13:10
  existence of probably vast swaths of, of the world, right?
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  Because what's the point, right. But in it.
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  And again, like, I think this, this connection that we have is
• 13:22
  very strong because, you know, actually the first time I went
• 13:25
  abroad was to Buenos Aires in Argentina.
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  And so then I got to experience some of some of the culture
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  there. And definitely there was this
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  feeling, I guess like some people kind of might frame it as
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  like being a little bit stuck up, right, Right.
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  They, they, they, they have more important things to do.
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  And that, you know, they, they have this pride, right?
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  That they, they, how they carry themselves with.
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  But, you know, once I felt myself, you know, removed from
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  the, you know, the US, suddenly it was just this kind of like,
• 13:55
  you know, shock of like, well, like, I don't really matter
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  here. And actually I don't feel very
• 14:00
  welcome to either, to be honest. And, and that it was a very
• 14:04
  humbling experience to kind of like experience, like to really
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  feel what it means to be an outsider, right?
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  And I think that was important, at least for my, my development
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  is like, kind of almost like dislodging this kind of like ego
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  of where this assumption that like, actually, you know, I'm
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  very important and, and just based off of like where I was
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  born, right. But you were saying how
• 14:26
  arbitrary that was when, when you like, you know, because
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  travels are very important, you, you went to the US.
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  And what was it that like through your interactions with
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  your classmates from different parts of the world, Like, how
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  did that did that have a similar humbling effect to you?
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  Or what was that experience like of like the kind of like
• 14:46
  widening of of possibilities of of perspectives And how does
• 14:50
  that inform or how did that inform your understanding of
• 14:54
  global citizenship? Makes me what your reflections
• 15:04
  remind me of a work of a influential philosopher in in
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  this field of theory of double citizenship.
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  It's a American philosopher called Martha Newsdown, and she
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  identifies two of the sort of dispositions that are central to
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  the cultivation of global citizenship. 1 is the capacity
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  to adopt A critical perspective towards 1's own culture in order
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  to take distance from it. And and and and and and and.
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  Be critical and having access to a different point of view.
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  It's like really important. It's basic, you know, it's a
• 16:02
  starting point. I remember when I first came to
• 16:11
  the US and I had a conversation with.
• 16:19
  So the first time I came to the US was for I had been accepted
• 16:24
  to, you know, SUA to start in the fall.
• 16:30
  The university was having its official dedication, sort of the
• 16:36
  only moment in May. So a few months earlier, but
• 16:40
  they were they had already accepted a number of students
• 16:44
  that were going to start in, in August.
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  So they invited us to participate in the, you know,
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  festivities. And so the first time I, I came
• 16:54
  to the US was for that occasion. And I remember I was roommates
• 17:00
  with a friend of mine. They, they ended up being, you
• 17:03
  know, becoming a friend of mine and, and he's from Japan.
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  And I remember that after a few days, you know, spending time
• 17:17
  together and I gave I gave me a ride at the airport.
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  He was going to take, you know, a flight back to Japan.
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  And he said to me, he said, oh, you know, I really respect you.
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  And that was kind of amazing to me because in Argentinian
• 17:39
  culture, and I think this is probably all Latin American
• 17:42
  culture, that would be a really weird thing to say that you
• 17:47
  can't, you know, you maybe you could tell someone that is very
• 17:52
  senior, you know, you know, the living legend or someone that
• 17:58
  it's, it's a much higher position socially or otherwise.
• 18:01
  Oh, I, I, I respect, I respect you.
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  It'll still be a little weird, but you could, but you would
• 18:08
  never, you can't say that to appear.
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  You know, it's, it's a, it's, it's really hard, but sometimes
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  it's a genuine, it's a genuine feeling where you want to convey
• 18:21
  that to someone that is your peer.
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  But in Argentina, you can't say it directly.
• 18:27
  You you could say something like, Hey, something like, hey,
• 18:29
  man, I love you, man, that kind of thing.
• 18:32
  You could show affection, camaraderie, actually like
• 18:39
  teasing, you know, even and to to to show that you're that you
• 18:45
  feel this, this closest. And maybe after 20 years of
• 18:50
  friendship, you know, you could say to someone, you know, man, I
• 18:55
  respect you a lot. Yeah.
• 18:57
  So I was amazed that in another culture and I didn't even learn
• 19:07
  the language. We were talking in English and
• 19:08
  he was still translating from. I ended up then studying
• 19:13
  Japanese and understanding that in the language is, is you can
• 19:16
  say that and, and it's not, it's natural.
• 19:20
  You know, he was probably translating from Japanese saying
• 19:23
  to, to me in English. And, and it was kind of amazing
• 19:27
  to realize that, Oh, here's something that I don't have in
• 19:33
  my culture. And, and it's, it's important.
• 19:38
  It's it's a place of real, it's crucial function in a culturally
• 19:42
  to communicate something so basic, so important, and we
• 19:47
  don't have it and we have to do it indirectly and and you know,
• 19:53
  and and so on laws. I mean, there's something
• 19:58
  wonderful about how in Argentinian culture you get to
• 20:03
  communicate this and indirect ways that there's something
• 20:06
  beautiful about that too. But to me that that the
• 20:09
  realization that, oh, there's you could you could in in.
• 20:15
  In other cultures, you could just say this directly.
• 20:19
  It was kind of amazing for me when I was, I was a child, I was
• 20:22
  very young. So it was the first time I, I, I
• 20:24
  even had that thought that that cultures and languages offer,
• 20:36
  you know, kind of resources for, for communication, ways of
• 20:40
  interacting with the world, with other people.
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  And, and they're all limited and they're different.
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  And I just never thought about that.
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  I thought it was like just a matter of translation, you know,
• 20:52
  whatever you feel, you communicate in a language and
• 20:55
  you can translate into another language.
• 20:56
  And yeah, it's a different way of experience in the world when
• 21:05
  we have these different resources.
• 21:08
  Yeah, You know, that's such a beautiful, beautiful anecdote
• 21:12
  that you you shared. And it really emphasizes like
• 21:15
  these kind of cross cultural interactions.
• 21:18
  And like, you know, you don't you, you work like somewhat
• 21:22
  caught off guard, right? You weren't expecting a comment
• 21:24
  like that. And it really made you stop and
• 21:28
  think like what what did he mean?
• 21:31
  You know, and you had to kind of run it by your own filter,
• 21:35
  right? The only filter really at that
• 21:37
  time that you had was through Argentina's and suddenly, right,
• 21:41
  you were referencing, you know, Martha Nussfun, like suddenly
• 21:45
  you were finding yourself taking on this critical perspective of
• 21:48
  wait, is that what this person's understanding as well?
• 21:52
  Because then there's so much more feedback that you were
• 21:54
  getting in that interaction of not just him saying I respect
• 21:58
  you, but like the emotion that was conveyed in that, the
• 22:01
  sincerity behind it. I'm sure he really meant it.
• 22:05
  And I think that it opens up this world of possibilities of
• 22:08
  like, you know, like maybe this person understands the world
• 22:13
  from like a different in, in a different way.
• 22:16
  And, and you're kind of, you know, like this window has been
• 22:19
  opened, maybe just it's cracked open, right in that initial
• 22:22
  interaction. But like there's a whole another
• 22:24
  world that exists on through that that space.
• 22:27
  And, and then that led you to, you know, study Japanese, right?
• 22:31
  Because I think this is something so beautiful about
• 22:34
  Soca University is that the founder, you know, really wanted
• 22:39
  this to be this, this kind of home to global citizens and, and
• 22:46
  everyone's coming in with, you know, different language
• 22:48
  backgrounds. But on top of that, it's
• 22:50
  actually a requirement. It's part of the curriculum that
• 22:53
  you learn a second, third or fourth language.
• 22:57
  And so for you, that was Japanese.
• 22:59
  And and so, you know, you spoke a little bit about like, well, I
• 23:02
  kind of understood like the basic tenants of like
• 23:04
  translation, but like there's so much more that went into that.
• 23:09
  And I'm, I'm curious, like, what was your experience, experience
• 23:12
  like already knowing a second language, right?
• 23:16
  Because that was English. So you knew Spanish and then
• 23:18
  English, but then now you were adding another language,
• 23:21
  Japanese to the mix. Like what was that process like?
• 23:26
  Because, you know, the bilingual brain functions differently.
• 23:30
  And, like, would you also say that, you know, through that
• 23:33
  process, is that the only way to really make sense of like these
• 23:37
  kind of like new perspectives or is it an expedited way?
• 23:42
  I mean, yeah. What, what are your thoughts
• 23:44
  about about like the role that language plays in terms of like
• 23:47
  understanding ourselves as a global citizen?
• 23:53
  Well, I mean, learning a language is such a powerful way
• 23:59
  of experiencing a culture that if you get an opportunity, you
• 24:10
  should do it. You know, you should, you should
• 24:11
  be in the I think it should be in the, the, the, the curriculum
• 24:15
  for both people, if not all people.
• 24:19
  I, I don't, I don't think is the only way to have access to this
• 24:27
  perspective that that or cultivate the awareness that
• 24:37
  there are different ways of experiencing the world.
• 24:44
  Some people seem to have that unnaturally They, they, they're
• 24:47
  monolingual. Maybe they lived their entire
• 24:51
  lives and some people don't leave their hometown, you know,
• 24:57
  and they have this kind of moral orientation towards the world.
• 25:11
  But certainly studying languages is is is a powerful means.
• 25:22
  My experiences with English and Japanese were very different.
• 25:29
  The English language is a lot closer to Spanish and the
• 25:33
  culture a lot more familiar. The, I mean, well, the fact that
• 25:41
  this is kind of a global popular culture that dominated by US,
• 25:49
  you know, like TV shows and movies and a lot of like sort of
• 25:54
  my heroes, musicians, you know, a lot the, the, the, you know,
• 26:00
  American culture is very dominant in that way.
• 26:02
  And that does a lot for, you know, preparing, you know, I, I,
• 26:10
  I, I came to experience American culture with the background of
• 26:15
  having, you know, the, the, the, the TV shows, the music, the
• 26:22
  stories were part of my life as a child because that's, that's,
• 26:26
  you know, it was Darren Argentina and it was, it was not
• 26:31
  the same with Japanese culture. A lot of it I was encountering
• 26:36
  for the first time. Yeah.
• 26:41
  And yeah, Japan was hard. I remember that I, I pride
• 26:56
  myself on being always very excited and enthusiastic about
• 27:02
  learning, You know, that almost like us, that's part of my
• 27:06
  identity. I'm the person that's always
• 27:08
  happy to finish new things and learn.
• 27:11
  And, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I love being in the situation
• 27:16
  where I, I'm not an expert, you know, so I have to figure it out
• 27:20
  and make mistakes. And, but in Japan, I felt like
• 27:31
  just how hard that is. I was like, I was, I was, I, I
• 27:34
  remember being so, so exhausted, you know, trying to be in
• 27:38
  conversations with people, trying to figure out what
• 27:39
  they're saying, you know, understanding 20% people are
• 27:42
  saying and be living like that for, you know, 6 or 7 hours.
• 27:47
  Just so exhausted. Yeah, I remember that.
• 27:57
  I I know that feeling very well too.
• 27:59
  Yeah. It, it almost feels like you're
• 28:01
  breaking your, your head is like, like splitting apart
• 28:04
  sometimes at the end of a long day.
• 28:06
  Yeah. And, and what's really happening
• 28:08
  is like your brain is just getting rewired.
• 28:13
  You know, it might be kind of like the the physical pain of
• 28:18
  that, that that physical change is happening at the.
• 28:21
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:23
  Wow. I don't.
• 28:24
  I haven't. I haven't.
• 28:25
  I haven't. Oh, that's interesting.
• 28:27
  I want to. I mean, I say that because even
• 28:31
  in my own experience, and this was with learning Spanish, it
• 28:35
  took, I learned Spanish at SUA and, and yeah, for the longest
• 28:41
  time I just, I was so frustrated with the language because I
• 28:46
  just, it, it just wasn't making sense, right?
• 28:48
  I had the, the, the grammar of it, recalling the words, my own
• 28:53
  feeling of like, what confidence, what little
• 28:55
  confidence I had even to like, you know, produce the words and,
• 28:59
  you know, articulate it. And then it took, I would say,
• 29:04
  you know, even after my study abroad experience, it really
• 29:06
  took me going back to, well, in this case, it was, I went to
• 29:10
  Peru, you know, really being immersed in, in the culture.
• 29:14
  And I think it was like, you know, it was just kind of like a
• 29:18
  light switch almost. It's like, it's almost like, you
• 29:21
  know, how like you have like a freeway and like they'll do like
• 29:23
  maintenance at night and they do all this work and you don't see
• 29:26
  it and you don't realize it's happening.
• 29:28
  And then suddenly like the next day, like the road is cleared
• 29:31
  and it's all paved over and you're suddenly you're driving.
• 29:33
  You're like, well, like I, I didn't realize that, you know, I
• 29:37
  can pass through here now. And that was that, that was kind
• 29:40
  of like what I experienced. It was like a sudden
• 29:42
  transformation. What an amazing metaphor I also
• 29:49
  remember experiencing because I think in this experience of, of
• 29:55
  cross cultural communication, you, you have, you have
• 30:04
  opportunities to experience the limitations of, of the
• 30:09
  perspective that you bring. You know, like when interacting
• 30:13
  with my friends, Aji realized, oh, there's something important
• 30:19
  that my culture doesn't have, you know, and I can't
• 30:22
  communicate this the same way. You also sometimes get, get to
• 30:29
  experience the limitations of the other culture.
• 30:32
  And, you know, that's also part of the, IT in any, you know, and
• 30:40
  it's not the same as having a pre the prejudice, you know,
• 30:44
  because, you know, I, I, I suppose also universal feature,
• 30:47
  which is universal feature of most cultures that we tend to be
• 30:51
  aware of all that is wrong or limited about other people, you
• 30:55
  know, But I remember, for example, you know, in my
• 31:03
  particular case, I, I come from a, you know, I'm, I'm a
• 31:11
  descendant of Europeans, Caucasian.
• 31:15
  I am like part of the dominant culture.
• 31:21
  I know that's the intersection of my identities.
• 31:23
  I'm right there at, at the centre of the Argentinian
• 31:27
  society. I didn't have an experience of,
• 31:30
  of be marginalized there, you know, with a few exceptions, but
• 31:39
  not in the sense of like my identity is associated with
• 31:44
  something marginal in this, in, in this world, in this society.
• 31:50
  And in Japan. I realized I had a few
• 31:54
  experiences where it was clear that some people had a an
• 32:06
  understanding of the world, of the society in which someone
• 32:10
  like me is not at the center. It's, you know, oh, you're an
• 32:17
  immigrant. You are.
• 32:20
  I was kind of very cute, very nice how you're learning
• 32:22
  Japanese, but you'll never really get it, you know, just,
• 32:28
  you know, a sense of perception of immigrants from like Western
• 32:38
  countries as lacking a kind of tact and ability to sort of read
• 32:46
  the room and and and be maybe in too loud, acting in a way that
• 32:51
  is insensitive to people's, you know, sensitivities.
• 32:57
  And Japanese culture excels in that.
• 33:01
  There's this sense of an unspoken understanding of how
• 33:07
  you should proceed in every situation so that you don't
• 33:10
  offend others. And you know, part of it, part
• 33:13
  of it is a sensitivity that you develop, you pay attention to
• 33:16
  body language and you get a sense.
• 33:17
  And that's really important if people do that a lot more than
• 33:21
  in, in other cultures that I've experienced.
• 33:23
  But there's also in a, in a, an agreed upon set of norms in the
• 33:31
  society that it's, it's very clear.
• 33:35
  And that is just so important for, for that culture.
• 33:40
  So when you don't get it, when you're bad at that, it's, it's
• 33:45
  not good. It's, it's like, you know, but
• 33:48
  you know, if infant American Society, you are just very timid
• 33:54
  and, and, and you know, you know, play with self doubt and
• 34:00
  you just can't be assertive. You can't, you know, the
• 34:09
  ambitious and like you're, you're missing out on your
• 34:13
  deficient and the thing that it's like the most important for
• 34:16
  our culture, you know, like it's, it's in in America, You
• 34:19
  want, you got to be like, you know, go getter and all of that.
• 34:24
  So I I've, I, I had that experience for the first time.
• 34:29
  Oh, like the way I am, it's I'm a second class citizen and, and
• 34:39
  this is and, and, and this is all very subtle, you know, and
• 34:43
  sometimes it's like decent people, like people are morally
• 34:50
  admirable, but you're part of the culture and, and you
• 34:54
  participate in these things. And it was a what was powerful
• 35:04
  about that kind of experience was that, you know, you are
• 35:09
  you're in this foreign culture trying to understand it, that
• 35:13
  that's the point of being there. You're not just a tourist to,
• 35:18
  you know, take in what is this pleasurable and ignore
• 35:24
  everything else you're trying to understand.
• 35:26
  You're trying to to kind of incorporate that point of view.
• 35:30
  And so, you know, you're constantly trying to exercise
• 35:37
  sort of empathy for for the culture.
• 35:41
  So it was nice to get to experience that, you know,
• 35:46
  feeling marginalized, experienced directly first hand
• 35:51
  something about this culture that is, that hurts some people,
• 35:59
  that is ugly, you could say, while at the same time
• 36:05
  appreciating it because it could be, it could be just so easy to
• 36:09
  be dismissive of that. Oh, yeah.
• 36:11
  Is that here? Yeah, you have.
• 36:15
  Here we go again. You know, Japanese culture and
• 36:18
  expression of cultural supremacy.
• 36:21
  Japan happens to be like the United States and Argentina too,
• 36:24
  one of these countries that also think the their culture is the
• 36:28
  center of the, the world. And, and it would be that it
• 36:34
  would just be dismissive of it. But in that context, or, or
• 36:44
  experience that expression of a, of a, of a cultural practice and
• 36:48
  immediately be dismissive of the individual morally for, you
• 36:55
  know, acting that way, thinking that way.
• 37:00
  But I got to experience that in, in a way that I kind of
• 37:07
  appreciate it. There's something in, for
• 37:17
  example, the pride of having achieved of these values, more
• 37:22
  culture, these values that I as a foreigner failed to enact this
• 37:30
  capacity to the sensitivity of other people's feelings.
• 37:34
  And this way of the, the, the deep respect for norms and the,
• 37:42
  the deep sort of internalization of, of these values that there's
• 37:53
  something beautiful about all of that.
• 37:55
  And, and, and the pride of an individual who values our
• 38:00
  culture, the pride in having achieved that, those values,
• 38:08
  being able to enact those values.
• 38:09
  And all of that is false. It goes hand in hand with the
• 38:15
  disappointment or the the space for someone who fails at that,
• 38:21
  you know, So I was like, I I get, I understand.
• 38:25
  I I see there's AI see it at the same time, it's hardly that the
• 38:31
  culture is like that and the people are are are are treated
• 38:35
  like second class for you know, Yeah, it was it was.
• 38:44
  Yeah, if I may, yeah. Yeah.
• 38:48
  No, no, you're sharing so much and it's, it's so fascinating
• 38:52
  and so much of it really resonates with, with me and, and
• 38:55
  I don't know why, but you know, maybe that this is the way my,
• 38:58
  my brain works. But I'm like, I have this like
• 39:00
  image of like salmon, you know, and like they they can either go
• 39:05
  with the current, right, which is much easier and they're just
• 39:08
  swimming underneath the water, right.
• 39:09
  And maybe that's the kind of like they're definitely kind of
• 39:12
  going and you know, maybe the it's to be unnoticed or maybe
• 39:15
  it's actually that's praised right, to just kind of continue
• 39:18
  in that vein. But but then you also have the
• 39:20
  opposite where you can kind of try to swim against the current
• 39:23
  entire yourself out or get frustrated, but you also have
• 39:27
  like this salmon that can like jump, right?
• 39:29
  They can kind of hop over. But it's it's very it's it's
• 39:33
  just it's flashy, right? People see it.
• 39:35
  People take, well, maybe actually not people in this in
• 39:37
  this example, the bears take notice of it and they're trying
• 39:40
  to get you and then so then becomes treacherous.
• 39:43
  But you know, nonetheless, like I do, I do resonate with what
• 39:47
  you're saying about like that feeling of like being an
• 39:49
  outsider and not feeling like maybe your efforts to to learn
• 39:55
  about their culture or being recognized because of how big
• 40:00
  that culture is as opposed to, you know, yourself and like the
• 40:05
  culture that you're bringing into it.
• 40:07
  And that, you know, at some point, I know for me it just
• 40:11
  kind of became like a decision of like, it's not really for me
• 40:15
  to like assert a certain like kind of viewpoint on them.
• 40:20
  It's really about me just trying to like.
• 40:22
  Just do the best I can to like, absorb and like, pick up on what
• 40:26
  they're doing And and then, yeah.
• 40:30
  And like, win that trust, like little by little.
• 40:33
  But I think that there's, there's something about like
• 40:36
  that there's like, there's so many paradoxes I think that come
• 40:39
  with like being in another culture, right?
• 40:42
  It's like the only way you can learn about it is by throwing
• 40:46
  yourself into like the fire of that culture.
• 40:49
  But at the same time, there's this resistance and this, like
• 40:52
  hard, like push back that, you know, sometimes they might
• 40:55
  reject you. They don't want you to be there
• 40:58
  or you might feel that. And just, you know, there's like
• 41:01
  this kind of, you know, intersecting, you know, traffic
• 41:05
  of like perceptions that maybe it's just too overwhelming and
• 41:09
  it's too damaging to your own like, ego or your own sense of
• 41:13
  identity. So it's riff with like peril.
• 41:17
  But at the same time, that's the only way to do it right?
• 41:19
  And like to go through that difficult process.
• 41:24
  Right and. Becoming a new person, right?
• 41:26
  In essence, right? Right.
• 41:27
  And, and being a citizen of the world is not, it's not, it
• 41:35
  doesn't entail that you get to overcome the limitations of a
• 41:43
  cultural perspective, whether it's a culture that, that, that
• 41:47
  you come from or it's sort of a cultural perspective that
• 41:51
  becomes your point of view. You know, whenever you go
• 41:56
  through an education, regardless of where you're born, you, you
• 42:01
  know, let's say you become a professional, you go to law
• 42:04
  school and you start a career in that field and you're, you're
• 42:07
  looking at things from the point of view of that culture of being
• 42:11
  a lawyer, you know, so that that's a cultural perspective
• 42:15
  that is your own, but it's quiet.
• 42:19
  The there's something noble about aiming to overcome the
• 42:26
  limits of the cultural perspectives that we bring to
• 42:31
  our encounters with others, But the goal is not to kind of
• 42:38
  overcome one of those and be just kind of completely free
• 42:42
  from any cultural constraints. It's will be possible, you know,
• 42:48
  and then I don't know, I don't think it would be.
• 42:52
  I'm not sure if it would be desirable.
• 42:54
  Someone who, you know, it's, I mean, I don't even can't imagine
• 42:59
  what it would look like, but a part of what it means to be
• 43:05
  human being is, is it's a we are particular in different ways.
• 43:10
  We're imperfect in particular ways.
• 43:13
  And it may, it may be that I'll be another, you know, call me
• 43:28
  Anthony. I'll be another influential
• 43:31
  philosopher thinker in this, in this space.
• 43:34
  He says that the goal of, you know, global citizenship is not
• 43:44
  to tolerate. We are not supposed to be
• 43:47
  tolerating all kinds of cultural practices.
• 43:52
  We can be very explicitly against certain things.
• 43:57
  You know, if there is a there is there is a culture where
• 44:00
  something is, is a tradition, but but it is immoral.
• 44:04
  It harms people. We, we can, we could, we could
• 44:07
  be against it and an interaction with people of those cultures.
• 44:10
  We could say, I think this cultural practice that you have
• 44:13
  is wrong. You know, the example that he
• 44:18
  gives is that I think a wife, it's some culture wife is put to
• 44:31
  death because she was, you know, she, she brought shame to the
• 44:40
  family, something like that. You know, it's cultural
• 44:43
  practice. That's the way they do it.
• 44:45
  A lot of norms, traditions are at the point with this.
• 44:51
  But you could as as a cosmopolitan citizen of the
• 44:55
  world, you could just say that's wrong in that aspect of our
• 44:59
  culture. I'm not interested in learning.
• 45:00
  And so tolerance is not the goal.
• 45:07
  Sometimes not even understanding, you know, OK, I
• 45:13
  don't tolerate this. I think it's wrong.
• 45:15
  I should avoid it. But I, you know, maybe I was
• 45:18
  describing earlier. I can't, I feel I can understand
• 45:22
  where someone is coming from. Even though I don't like it,
• 45:24
  even though I think it's wrong, I can understand it.
• 45:27
  It's just not even that it's a requirement because there's a
• 45:32
  lot of stuff going on in the world that we will never
• 45:34
  understand. We don't even understand why we
• 45:36
  do certain things, you know, not allowing people from from the
• 45:41
  cultural backgrounds. This is the goal is to just
• 45:46
  being able to live together. We that's we, we be able to just
• 45:55
  get used to being around each other and be able to live
• 45:58
  together. I think it's, I think.
• 46:08
  Yeah. And and you know, the one of the
• 46:10
  words that kind of came up a little bit earlier in in the
• 46:13
  conversation that you mentioned is like the word like
• 46:16
  sensitivity. And that really got me thinking
• 46:19
  of like how, you know, I, I, we were talking about like
• 46:23
  perceptions of others of ourselves, but like, also like
• 46:26
  openness to like put ourselves right in kind of difficult
• 46:31
  situations or encountering differences and reconciling that
• 46:35
  in our minds. And, and I think having a
• 46:38
  certain like level of sensitivity is important because
• 46:41
  the opposite of that would be like callousness, like, you
• 46:44
  know, it's like, it, it just, it doesn't register right?
• 46:47
  Or it's, it's numb. And, and I think that we kind of
• 46:50
  find ourselves in society more on that end than the other.
• 46:56
  And, but I'm, I'm wondering if you agree with that.
• 46:58
  And if you do, how can we like, what do we do to like, really
• 47:04
  allow people to like, yeah, register those experiences and
• 47:08
  value them? I sort of thought that all
• 47:18
  virtues are always a balance between two extremes, and the
• 47:25
  extremes are always vices. And if sensitivity is the thing
• 47:35
  that we want, you know, that that's that's the virtue.
• 47:41
  It's got vices on both ends. Maybe we could callousness as
• 47:46
  one of the vices, like the just inability to register how people
• 47:51
  are feeling. And but you could also go, you
• 47:55
  know, approach your vice on the other end and be so receptive,
• 48:02
  so open that you, you're completely passive in a way.
• 48:07
  It's you you fail to push in any way.
• 48:14
  And, and I, I can see that too as being a problem at usually
• 48:20
  what you want is some kind of balance between the two.
• 48:27
  You won't as an individual and as a society, you want people to
• 48:32
  be able to be responsive to one another, but at the same time
• 48:39
  not collapse in those interactions, but being able to
• 48:44
  assert a particular point of view.
• 48:48
  If we were completely open, sensitive, receptive, then we
• 48:54
  would lose all, all of our means as individuals.
• 48:57
  We will be coming together and kind of, you know, dialing into
• 49:03
  the vibe of that social moment and then that that's what we
• 49:07
  are. And all of the cases when all of
• 49:14
  the stories of, of, of, of, of a hero that goes against the
• 49:19
  current, you know, that sees that something is just not right
• 49:25
  and, and they stand up and they do something different, even if
• 49:30
  they put themselves at risk, you know, bears coming together or
• 49:35
  whatever. Those are examples of some
• 49:38
  degree of countlessness to, to, you know, to go and say, Rosa
• 49:45
  Parks refuses to sit in the back of the bus.
• 49:51
  That's she's failing to, to, to, if you're sensitive to the
• 49:56
  social situation, you don't do that.
• 49:59
  Obviously, if you, if you do that, you've got to make people
• 50:02
  upset. And sometimes that's what the
• 50:04
  situation requires. I, I see, for example, the kind
• 50:12
  of the, this cultural moment in, in the United States and in many
• 50:16
  parts of the world, it's, it's kind of become a dull phenomenon
• 50:20
  where cultures are kind of fragmented politically, you
• 50:24
  know, the left and the right. And it's just just not only a
• 50:27
  question of, you know, political parties with particular
• 50:32
  platforms or agendas, but there's a kind of an ongoing
• 50:37
  cultural war. You know, people are consume
• 50:41
  media that is constantly training you to to have an
• 50:47
  immortal level reaction against certain people, I guess certain
• 50:51
  key phrases and so on. And in that kind of context,
• 50:58
  some callousness is inevitable and and necessary because if I
• 51:09
  go and interact with people that are of a different, you know,
• 51:16
  political persuasion and, and I and I go open hearted,
• 51:23
  vulnerable, there are pretty good chances that no, it's not
• 51:40
  determined, but, but pretty good chances because of the cultural
• 51:44
  context that in, in, in an encounter across differences.
• 51:51
  I know I don't connect with a person, you know, kind of a
• 51:55
  heart to heart, But in that exchange, the person who
• 52:03
  perceives me as being of it, of the other, the other side, an
• 52:07
  enemy on the political divide. What is bringing to bear is all
• 52:13
  of these internalized habits, you know, to react against
• 52:18
  someone like me. So that's talks like me who's
• 52:23
  And so in the in the in that kind of encounter coming in with
• 52:33
  some level of, you know, having to guard up to some degree.
• 52:38
  It's perhaps not advice because there's there's no fertile
• 52:47
  ground for genuine exchange, you know, learning from one another.
• 52:55
  So anyway, all of this to say that if, if, if if if that's the
• 53:03
  tension between being open and and being closed and sensitive
• 53:07
  and callous, that the virtue may fall different points depending
• 53:14
  on the context, you know? You know, I I really appreciate
• 53:22
  like the the way that you were kind of yeah, explaining that
• 53:26
  tension between these two different maybe extremes or
• 53:31
  these different positions and that, you know, there's, there's
• 53:36
  while while we kind of like understand them as maybe like
• 53:38
  different like almost like, you know, pins in the ground, right,
• 53:43
  kind of like destinations itself.
• 53:46
  I think there's a lot more of like the kind of decision making
• 53:49
  process and the, you know, opportunity to really like think
• 53:52
  like what is our position and how, what is our approach to
• 53:56
  like understanding? Like if there's like a window of
• 54:00
  opportunity to like either be sense more sensitive and to
• 54:04
  learn from it, or maybe there is this other kind of like, you
• 54:07
  know, signal or like window where it requires something
• 54:11
  else. And I think that that decision
• 54:14
  making process really emphasizes more like a gentic kind of
• 54:20
  stance that like we need to step into that rather than the more
• 54:25
  passive whoa, you know, like this is the culture war.
• 54:28
  This is kind of the way it is. And I just either go all in and
• 54:32
  just think it's black and white or I remove myself and become
• 54:37
  passive and like seemingly like unaffected.
• 54:40
  And I think that, you know, we really need, I think as global
• 54:44
  citizens to opt towards the agentic route.
• 54:48
  And then also one where it's still like, while decisions are
• 54:51
  made, you know, we're, we're come, we, we don't have all the
• 54:55
  answers, right? And so some mistakes will be
• 54:58
  made, but, you know, experience is like, so needed, right?
• 55:03
  And especially ones that are rooted in human interactions and
• 55:06
  relationships rather than just, you know, maybe AI digital,
• 55:11
  right? I think that there needs to be
• 55:13
  this kind of for us to understand and make sense of
• 55:16
  ourselves as humans. We still yearn for that.
• 55:20
  Maybe there is a world in which AI can satisfy a certain need
• 55:24
  for that, But that is, you know, discussion for like another
• 55:29
  podcast because, you know, you know, this, this, this has been
• 55:32
  so great to really like kind of like wrestle with, with this
• 55:35
  term of global citizenship. I really appreciated how our
• 55:37
  conversation has also been like deeply rooted in our own lived
• 55:41
  experiences as we kind of, you know, we're fostered as global
• 55:46
  citizens. And now I, I really feel that
• 55:49
  we're, you know, doing the work to make sense of it, you know,
• 55:55
  within the, the realm of like academia, you know, amongst
• 55:59
  other, you know, like great philosophers, right.
• 56:02
  And your domain, right, really making sense of like what, where
• 56:05
  the discourse is and how can we really, yeah, kind of like
• 56:11
  provide more, more clarity. I don't know if it's
• 56:14
  understanding or if it's just new insight into like new
• 56:18
  pathways so that we can alleviate some of the, the, the,
• 56:23
  the suffering that we see taking place within society.
• 56:27
  Because I, I opt towards a world that's more, you know,
• 56:33
  harmonious or that that really seeks like, you know, to like,
• 56:36
  favor, like the good side of people rather than the divisive
• 56:40
  kind of more negative or even evil, you know, characteristics
• 56:44
  that they kind of assume that we have.
• 56:47
  So, so this has been really a wonderful conversation.
• 56:51
  I, I, I wanted to ask one last question, if that's OK.
• 56:54
  It's a book or movie recommendation or any
• 56:56
  recommendation, really. Anything you'd like to share
• 56:59
  with the listeners? I really enjoyed reading the
• 57:10
  memoir Autobiography of Kolover Ganas Kanaskar, Norwegian
• 57:19
  writer, and he calls it my Struggle.
• 57:23
  That's the name of that of, of, of the, of the book.
• 57:30
  Yeah. I love it.
• 57:30
  There's something about his style.
• 57:32
  It's so nice. It comes.
• 57:33
  It's just a huge. It has many volumes.
• 57:36
  The the first one is my favorite.
• 57:39
  Yeah. He's great.
• 57:42
  Yeah. I mean, isn't isn't life just 11
• 57:47
  struggle after another? So I think it makes sense in
• 57:50
  terms of like how we how we navigate the culture, how we
• 57:54
  navigate society, just even are just immediate family.
• 58:00
  That's already a struggle. But yeah, but thank you so much
• 58:02
  for for that recommendation, Gonzalo.
• 58:04
  And again, it's just this has been so, so wonderful to have
• 58:07
  this, this space with you. And I feel like I've learned a
• 58:10
  lot more about you. And then also just it's I think
• 58:13
  very stimulating to like think more critically and deeply on
• 58:16
  this concept. Any last thoughts?
• 58:19
  Any final words? I wanted to give you the last
• 58:22
  word. Maybe as us, we were talking
• 58:28
  about, you know, encounters across differences, people
• 58:32
  bringing in prejudices, you know, preconceived ideas that
• 58:40
  may get in the way of people coming to connect with one
• 58:43
  another. That's just very common.
• 58:48
  You don't even need to travel internationally for that.
• 58:51
  This would happen within a family.
• 58:53
  You come into a situation with a whole set of, you know,
• 58:56
  assumptions and, and the other, the other person is bringing
• 59:04
  their own and there's just no meaningful communication.
• 59:08
  You're just clashing. If I had to pick one thing that
• 59:19
  is what defines a global citizen, it would be the
• 59:25
  capacity to come into encounters across different situations like
• 59:32
  that and being able to find something new.
• 59:38
  If, if, if what you bring from your background is not, is
• 59:44
  allowing you to connect with people to, to, to share a sense
• 59:50
  of understanding, be able to create something new out of that
• 59:57
  situation. And maybe we could call that
• 1:00:02
  value creation. And I think it's a capacity that
• 1:00:06
  that we can cultivate.