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Harassed by Sovereign Citizens: A Detective’s Ordeal | Peter Kos · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanner.
0:15
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Adam shann If you like the show,
0:17
Speaker 2: please heit the like and subscribe, buttons and share it.
0:20
Speaker 2: Barren White to support more independent crime journalism. After the
0:25
Speaker 2: alleged murder of two police officers of Victoria's High Country
0:28
Speaker 2: in August, the concept of the sovereign citizen has been
0:31
Speaker 2: in the news.
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Speaker 3: Desi Freeman is a fugitive hiding in the hills surrounding
0:36
Speaker 3: poor Punker, a man wanted by the full force over
0:40
Speaker 3: the cold blooded murders of their colleagues.
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Speaker 4: Alleged killer Desi Freeman has based his worldview on the
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Speaker 4: so called alternative legal theory.
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Speaker 3: A sovereign citizen is someone who wrongly believes they are
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Speaker 3: not subject to Australian federal, state, or local law because
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Speaker 3: they think the laws are incorrect and therefore invalid.
1:01
Speaker 5: It's been discussed as if it has some basis in
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Speaker 5: the law, it most certainly does not. At its core
1:09
Speaker 5: is a selfish refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of governments,
1:12
Speaker 5: the courts, police and the entire legal system. Even now
1:18
Speaker 5: to civil concepts like vehicle registration and drivers licensing. These
1:23
Speaker 5: individuals don't work, and if they do, they don't pay taxes.
1:27
Speaker 5: They use and abuse the legal system to harass police
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Speaker 5: officers and to delay hearings. An ABC investigation has revealed
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Speaker 5: how a Sovereign citizen group she co founded has been
1:39
Speaker 5: using FA Court to harass government and court officials across
1:43
Speaker 5: the country. They'll always take matters to trial and appeal
1:47
Speaker 5: all outcomes. They abuse and intimidate government officials, will call
1:52
Speaker 5: the police and expect action if they're victims of crime themselves.
1:57
Speaker 5: We've seen individual police targeted and demonized.
2:00
Speaker 1: As they go about their lawful duties.
2:03
Speaker 5: The legal system doesn't know what to do with these
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Speaker 5: recalcitrant and vexatious litigants.
2:10
Speaker 4: My guest today, former Victoria detective Peter cost knows what
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Speaker 4: it's like to tangle with them.
2:15
Speaker 6: For six years he was harassed and pursued by a
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Speaker 6: group of these individuals.
2:20
Speaker 1: Has agreed to share his experiences.
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Speaker 7: Can I be no way, adam?
2:25
Speaker 1: Good mate? How did this all begin for you? So?
2:29
Speaker 7: It all started when knuckle had One attended Matthew Guy's office.
2:34
Speaker 7: Matthew Guy, then being the leader of the opposition of
2:37
Speaker 7: the Liberal Party in Victoria Intendity's office in Doncaster and
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Speaker 7: he abused the people there and smashed a glass window
2:46
Speaker 7: in Matthew Guy's office because he wasn't getting answers from
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Speaker 7: Matthew that he wanted. Regardless of what that was about,
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Speaker 7: he did cause criminal damage. He was subsequently charged by
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Speaker 7: someone in my office and at one stage he failed
3:02
Speaker 7: to turn up and appear in court, so a bench
3:06
Speaker 7: warrant was issued by the magistrates at Ringwood that ended
3:10
Speaker 7: up in our office and myself and two other detectives
3:14
Speaker 7: went down to Danyong to arrest him and take him
3:17
Speaker 7: back before the courts for failing to appear at court.
3:20
Speaker 1: Stuff you do all the time as a police officer.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, So we get warrants for fail to appear all
3:25
Speaker 7: the time. It's usually a very simple task of going
3:28
Speaker 7: to the person's house. Sometimes they forget to go to court.
3:32
Speaker 7: More often than not they just don't want to go
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Speaker 7: to court face reality, which I think was probably the
3:37
Speaker 7: case in this instance. So we took him to the magistrates' court.
3:41
Speaker 7: We backed up the warrant and the matter was listed
3:44
Speaker 7: for hearing before the magistrate and Knucklehead One was duly
3:49
Speaker 7: remanded in custody because he had no place of abode
3:53
Speaker 7: to go to. That's essentially what happened on that one day,
3:58
Speaker 7: and I didn't hear again from him for about two years.
4:02
Speaker 7: So what happened was two years later, when we're rested
4:05
Speaker 7: Knucklehead one Knucklehead two. It was also at the premises
4:08
Speaker 7: where we arrested number one, so he took it upon
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Speaker 7: himself to follow us in his car back to Ringwood.
4:17
Speaker 7: He demanded to know where we were taking Knucklehead one,
4:19
Speaker 7: and I told him we're going to the Ringwood police
4:21
Speaker 7: station so we could then have him hold pending his
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Speaker 7: hearing at the court. Knucklehead two then followed me in
4:28
Speaker 7: his car, and what he did was he didn't just
4:33
Speaker 7: follow me. He followed me up the Eastern Freeway where
4:36
Speaker 7: we're doing one hundred klometers an hour, probably within two
4:39
Speaker 7: meters of the rear of my car, so he was
4:42
Speaker 7: tailgating me the whole way, which was a dangerous sort
4:46
Speaker 7: of thing to do. So what I did was I
4:49
Speaker 7: overtook a truck, moved in front of the truck so
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Speaker 7: he couldn't follow directly behind me, and then at the
4:54
Speaker 7: appropriate place, I turned off the freeway and went to Ringwood.
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Speaker 7: In order to do that, I had to stop at
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Speaker 7: a red light and do a U turn on white
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Speaker 7: Horse Road. I did the turn, Knucklehead two followed through
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Speaker 7: against a red light to keep up with me, and
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Speaker 7: he then disappeared and then turned up at court a
5:13
Speaker 7: bit later on. So when I go back to the
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Speaker 7: office after the remand I looked up the police database
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Speaker 7: and I found that knuckle had two actually was unlicensed
5:24
Speaker 7: and had of course gone through red light. So I
5:26
Speaker 7: then summonsed him for a couple of traffic matters basically
5:30
Speaker 7: because of his actions and his aggressive driving. He then
5:35
Speaker 7: has to from the magistrate's court. There's a number of
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Speaker 7: hearings for his traffic matters, and he consistently fails to
5:44
Speaker 7: turn up to court, and if he does and we
5:47
Speaker 7: have to find him summons him again. He fails to
5:50
Speaker 7: a turn up at court again. He then claims he's
5:53
Speaker 7: not ready for his hearings, and it goes on for
5:57
Speaker 7: two years with him failing to turn up and we
5:59
Speaker 7: have to go and get a warrant, arrest him and
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Speaker 7: take him back before the court. So he's just using
6:05
Speaker 7: delaying tactics to frustrate us. So two years go past,
6:10
Speaker 7: and then one day I'm sitting at my desk and
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Speaker 7: Knucklehead one apparently has run and wants to speak to me.
6:17
Speaker 7: So what I do is I quickly get my phone
6:21
Speaker 7: out because I know he's going to be abusive, because
6:26
Speaker 7: not because he was abusive to me the first time,
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Speaker 7: but he's known in the area to be abusive towards
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Speaker 7: all police. So I get my phone out and I
6:35
Speaker 7: finally take the call, and I put my office phone
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Speaker 7: on speaker and I then record a ten minute verbal
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Speaker 7: abuse from this bloke. Because he's claiming that I kidnapped him.
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Speaker 7: I have really no idea what it was on about.
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Speaker 8: And he doesn't recognize your legal authority, he says, because
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Speaker 8: he's a sovereign citizen, he doesn't have to recognize the police.
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Speaker 5: You're illegal, or your actions are illegal. You're a terrorist.
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Speaker 5: You've kidnapped him.
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Speaker 7: That's what he's claiming. So what's actually happened is we
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Speaker 7: executed the warrant on the day he fronted before magistrate.
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Speaker 7: You can't front anyone before magistrate unless they've been duly
7:14
Speaker 7: presented and there are charges before the court. So what
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Speaker 7: is claiming is just ridiculous. What happened in actual fact,
7:23
Speaker 7: was the detective who actually charged him with the initial offenses.
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Speaker 7: He has completed what we call leap reports, which update
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Speaker 7: the police database, and he's just written down the wrong
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Speaker 7: date on that form. So when Knucklehead one has decided
7:43
Speaker 7: to contest the matter, he's requested all the documents that
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Speaker 7: police have in relation to him for his case because
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Speaker 7: he wants to fight the charges. He's looked at the
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Speaker 7: documents he's received and it shows that he was actually
7:57
Speaker 7: not arrested on the day, but he was arrested one
8:00
Speaker 7: month or two months later. So he's claiming that because
8:05
Speaker 7: it says that on the database, he must have been
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Speaker 7: illegally arrested and detained. So therefore he's when he's rung
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Speaker 7: me up, he's claiming that I actually kidnapped him and
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Speaker 7: had him locked up without charge, which is just ridiculous.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Legal term for it's called pollis Yeah, that's right.
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Speaker 7: Absolutely. So I decide what I'm going to do is
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Speaker 7: I'm going to charge Diplake with using a telecommunications device
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Speaker 7: to menace and harass. So I take out a summons
8:37
Speaker 7: or I apply for a summons for that, and that
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Speaker 7: shows up on the police database. Unbeknownst to me, Knucklehead
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Speaker 7: One has being looked at by the counter Terrorism group
8:49
Speaker 7: in vic Pole. I was totally unaware of this, but
8:52
Speaker 7: I get a call from them and they say, listen,
8:54
Speaker 7: the police Minister has been looking at knucklehead one because
8:58
Speaker 7: he has been arrasing members of Parliament and they want
9:01
Speaker 7: something done about it. But of course the politicians don't
9:05
Speaker 7: want to make the complaint. They just want the police
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Speaker 7: to do something without actually getting themselves involved. So they
9:11
Speaker 7: see that I have summoned this bloke and they ring
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Speaker 7: out and say listen, don't go ahead with your summons.
9:18
Speaker 7: We're going to charge you with stalking you. I said, well,
9:21
Speaker 7: it was just the one phone call, and they said,
9:23
Speaker 7: oh no, no, he's been sending out emails about you
9:26
Speaker 7: for the last six months.
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Speaker 1: Never told me what is alleging in those emails.
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Speaker 7: Well, he was alleging that I'd kidnapped him, that I
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Speaker 7: was a terrorist, that I was a pedophile, all baseless
9:38
Speaker 7: sort of stuff. It was just disgusting things that you
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Speaker 7: there was no substance to it, but he was just
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Speaker 7: venting on these emails. The problem for me was these
9:49
Speaker 7: emails were being sent unberknownst to me to the Chief
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Speaker 7: Commissioner of Police, other high ranking police officers, magistrates, lawyers
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Speaker 7: and other people who I've come across in my professional career.
10:04
Speaker 7: And I'm pretty much out because I should have been
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Speaker 7: told that this was happening, because when he rang me.
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Speaker 7: If I had known about these emails when he rang me,
10:13
Speaker 7: I would have dealt with the phone call, probably in
10:15
Speaker 7: a much different manner than what I did, because I
10:19
Speaker 7: was just taken by surprise after two years, So had
10:22
Speaker 7: I known, there might have been a different outcome.
10:25
Speaker 8: I've heard the phone call and he's just vending at you,
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Speaker 8: and there's plenty of veiled or even direct threats. He's
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Speaker 8: talking about the fact that you're a.
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Speaker 5: Coward and if it was one on one without your
10:36
Speaker 5: magic blues, soon things a bit different, and it's very
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Speaker 5: very unpleasant.
10:41
Speaker 7: Yeah, it is unpleasant. And I did try and flesh
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Speaker 7: that out on the phone with him as to what
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Speaker 7: he was actually trying to say, but he was too
10:50
Speaker 7: cunning to really come out and say exactly what he meant.
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Speaker 7: But it should be noted that when he damaged a
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Speaker 7: few guy's office, he actually told them at that office,
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Speaker 7: he threatened them that he had the constitutional right to
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Speaker 7: go on a shooting spree if he basically didn't get answers.
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Speaker 7: So that's the sort of mindset these people have, making
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Speaker 7: threats and demeaning people. And what happened next, well, what
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Speaker 7: happened next was the counter terrorism detectives charge knucklehead one
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Speaker 7: with stalking me and would actually go on to charge
11:28
Speaker 7: him with stalking two other police officers who I won't name,
11:32
Speaker 7: and that would later on some years later because of
11:35
Speaker 7: all the delay, it would end up in a contested
11:38
Speaker 7: matter at the county court. But as soon as they
11:42
Speaker 7: charged him, he was charged, and he was reminded he
11:45
Speaker 7: was unable to continue to send me these emails because
11:50
Speaker 7: he would be in breach of his bail if and
11:52
Speaker 7: when he got bail. So what happens His knucklehead number two,
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Speaker 7: who I charged with the traffic offenses, takes up the
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Speaker 7: cause and he starts sending out the same emails about me,
12:03
Speaker 7: and I say, well, up counter terrorism, I pointed out
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Speaker 7: to them and I said, this bike's just another knuckle
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Speaker 7: ed knuckle lad too, and he's now stalking me, so
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Speaker 7: I think he's a co offender. You need to charge him,
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Speaker 7: and they go, well, it's not really matter for us.
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Speaker 7: Obviously he's not on their list of targets because they're
12:24
Speaker 7: dealing with these other people. But he is actually a
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Speaker 7: co offender, so they should have charged him straight away,
12:31
Speaker 7: but they didn't, and they said the detectives in my
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Speaker 7: region would have to deal with him. And I'm saying, well,
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Speaker 7: the evidence is all the same, it's all identical, but anyway,
12:43
Speaker 7: so that matter is then referred to my inspector and
12:48
Speaker 7: in Eastern region, and they appoint a couple of detectives
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Speaker 7: that are neighboring CIB who are independent to then investigate
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Speaker 7: this spike stalking me. What happens next, he wouldn't believe
13:03
Speaker 7: is that because of the reputation of them these people,
13:06
Speaker 7: those two detectives promptly went off on sick leave, which
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Speaker 7: was the only way they could get out of investigating
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Speaker 7: this matter and becoming the next victims.
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Speaker 1: And they feed that was going to happen.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, they were in fear that they were going to
13:22
Speaker 7: be the next victims and cop all this abuse, so
13:27
Speaker 7: they went off sick and then their officer in charge said, well,
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Speaker 7: this is really their counter terrorism matter. So they've told
13:35
Speaker 7: me that it's got to go back to counter terrorism.
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Speaker 7: I'm going, well, I'm the victim here. They're stalking me.
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Speaker 7: I'm the victim. It's not up to me to investigate
13:45
Speaker 7: these bikes and run the charges, run the case. So
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Speaker 7: between counter terrorism in Eastern Region, they're about to stand off,
13:53
Speaker 7: they're both refusing to do it, and I'm just sitting there, going,
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Speaker 7: this is ridiculous. I'm the victim. And there's other people
14:01
Speaker 7: who have gone off six so they don't have to
14:02
Speaker 7: become involved. I'm still sitting here running around investigating local crime.
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Speaker 7: So it got to the point where I was getting
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Speaker 7: fairly upset about this, and I said, well, I'm not
14:14
Speaker 7: going to come to work tomorrow until you can work
14:17
Speaker 7: out who's looking after me. I'm not coming back to work.
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Speaker 7: And I was off for about fifteen weeks on sick leave,
14:27
Speaker 7: stressed out because I was continuing to be harassed, and
14:34
Speaker 7: the Victorian Police Department just let me down. Eventually, their
14:38
Speaker 7: job was taken up by counterterrorism, as it should have
14:41
Speaker 7: been in the first place. And what's that was done? Yes, sorry,
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Speaker 7: turned back to work.
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Speaker 1: For these guys.
14:47
Speaker 9: Just really so your employers should say Victoria Police really
14:51
Speaker 9: didn't know how to handle these vexatious litigants who were
14:55
Speaker 9: just doing everything to harass and intimidate you with bogus
14:59
Speaker 9: legal action.
15:00
Speaker 8: They've also tried private prosecutions of you at the same time,
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Speaker 8: which is one of the hallmarks of the IS individuals.
15:06
Speaker 1: They triw these private prosecutions. What's that all about?
15:09
Speaker 7: So Knucklehead number, so he then took out an intervention
15:14
Speaker 7: order or tried to take out an indivention order against
15:16
Speaker 7: me and one of his cohorts, which is let's call
15:21
Speaker 7: hi Knucklehead three, who I had to run in with
15:24
Speaker 7: at court. He also took out an indivention order against me,
15:28
Speaker 7: or tried to. The reason was that Knucklehead three was
15:32
Speaker 7: giving advice to Knucklehead two at his court hearing and
15:36
Speaker 7: he was evicted from the court for harassing people within
15:40
Speaker 7: the court by the magistrate. When we came out of court,
15:44
Speaker 7: he come up to me and was yelling at me
15:46
Speaker 7: in my face in the court precinct that he wanted
15:49
Speaker 7: to know what my name was. And he had his
15:53
Speaker 7: pen and paper held up in front of my face,
15:56
Speaker 7: yelling at me, what's your name? What's your name? And
15:59
Speaker 7: I said, well, I don't actually have to give you
16:01
Speaker 7: my name. And you can ask me all you like,
16:05
Speaker 7: but I'm not going to give you my name. So
16:08
Speaker 7: he then followed me out of court. He followed me
16:10
Speaker 7: down Lonsdale Street and I said to him, well, I'm
16:14
Speaker 7: going to catch the bus, doncast. You're free to join
16:17
Speaker 7: me if you like, and then he walked off. The
16:20
Speaker 7: next thing, both him and Knucklehead too take out intervention
16:24
Speaker 7: orders against me, claiming that I had harassed them. It
16:27
Speaker 7: was all lies. Everything they said was just lies, that
16:30
Speaker 7: I'd arrested them and threatened them and that sort of thing.
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Speaker 7: Because in Victoria, when you want to report harassment or
16:39
Speaker 7: take out an intervention order, you can tell the clerk
16:41
Speaker 7: of Courts anything you like and you're not held to
16:44
Speaker 7: account as to the veracity of what you claim, so
16:48
Speaker 7: the claim goes through. And the first thing I knew
16:51
Speaker 7: about this was I was called up into my local
16:56
Speaker 7: inspector's office and said, sorry to do this to you,
16:59
Speaker 7: but I have to serve these two intervention orders on you,
17:02
Speaker 7: which was the first i'd heard of it. Victimized here
17:05
Speaker 7: by these boats and then I'm being served intervention orders
17:10
Speaker 7: against me, which I have to answer. How do you
17:14
Speaker 7: answer deny something which is just totally false. It's difficult.
17:20
Speaker 7: So I'm then represented by the Victorian Government Solicitor's Office
17:25
Speaker 7: in relation to these two intervention orders, and they want
17:29
Speaker 7: me to come to court and deny everything. They said, well,
17:32
Speaker 7: I am I going to do that because it's just
17:34
Speaker 7: all made up, so it should just be summarily dismissed.
17:39
Speaker 7: There's no truth to any of what they are alleging.
17:43
Speaker 8: You feel like you're almost dignifying these accusations by having
17:47
Speaker 8: to go to court to deny them. And it's all
17:49
Speaker 8: about using the process to manipulate and intimidate.
17:53
Speaker 7: You absolutely, And what they want to do is they
17:56
Speaker 7: want to get me. The VTSO is asking me to
17:59
Speaker 7: get into the witness box and give evidence against them.
18:01
Speaker 7: But what that then does is that allows them to
18:04
Speaker 7: cross execs and me and just make up more rubbish.
18:08
Speaker 7: And that's what they're doing. They're trying to harass me,
18:10
Speaker 7: using the court to harass me. So I said to
18:13
Speaker 7: the VGs so I'm not going to court just simply
18:16
Speaker 7: so they can harass me further. This went on for
18:19
Speaker 7: two years. The VGSA kept calling me up wanting me
18:23
Speaker 7: to attend court. I refused to go, and I pointed
18:26
Speaker 7: out to them, what's to stop me from making a
18:30
Speaker 7: false claim about the chief Commissioner of Police or the
18:33
Speaker 7: Premier of Victoria. And what you're going to insist that
18:37
Speaker 7: they go to court and give evidence. I don't think so,
18:40
Speaker 7: he said, I want to be treated the same as
18:42
Speaker 7: what they would be. And it took them two years,
18:45
Speaker 7: but they finally had the matters dismissed out of hand.
18:48
Speaker 7: But that wasn't it Knucklehead number three. He then decides
18:53
Speaker 7: to take out a private prosecution of me for harassment
18:57
Speaker 7: or whatever it was he made up. I can't recall. Again.
19:01
Speaker 7: The first thing I find out about that is a prosecutor.
19:06
Speaker 7: She finds this charge appearing and she thinks it's interesting
19:10
Speaker 7: that I've been charged with this alleged harassment defense or
19:14
Speaker 7: whatever it was. So once again they're trying to attack me.
19:20
Speaker 7: So knucklehead number three is setting it up so he
19:24
Speaker 7: can make false accusations against me in court, get me
19:27
Speaker 7: in as an offender, get me into the witness box,
19:30
Speaker 7: and he wants to harass me again. That's his aim.
19:35
Speaker 7: No one looks after me. I have to do all
19:37
Speaker 7: the running around, all right. So I'm the one who's
19:40
Speaker 7: been charged by this bloke, and I'm sort of wondering, well,
19:45
Speaker 7: if I've been charged by him, where's the internal investigation,
19:49
Speaker 7: if I've allegedly been harassing him? You know, where's that
19:52
Speaker 7: all happening? But that comes up a bit later. So
19:56
Speaker 7: what happens is I get onto the Vgso the VGSO
20:00
Speaker 7: told me, well, all public prosecutions, if they're mate brought
20:03
Speaker 7: by the public, you will have to go through the
20:06
Speaker 7: Office of Public Prosecutions. So they refer me to them.
20:11
Speaker 7: See victim. I'm here the victim having to do all this.
20:15
Speaker 7: No one in the Victoria Police is looking after me.
20:17
Speaker 7: So I ring the officer the OPP and they advise
20:22
Speaker 7: me that all public prosecutions, even if they're bought by
20:25
Speaker 7: private individuals, have to go through the OPP for scrutiny.
20:30
Speaker 7: They've had a look at what this bike has done.
20:32
Speaker 7: They know it's all false. So on the day where
20:35
Speaker 7: I'm meant to turn up to court, I don't turn up,
20:38
Speaker 7: like I said to the VGs. So I said the
20:39
Speaker 7: same to the OPP. I'm not turning up to court
20:41
Speaker 7: to justify this bloke and giving breath. So what happened
20:46
Speaker 7: on the day was he goes to court expecting to
20:50
Speaker 7: find me there. He's ready to hammer me in the
20:53
Speaker 7: witness box, but the opp turn up and the app
20:58
Speaker 7: when the matters called address the magistrate and say, being
21:01
Speaker 7: the public prosecutor, we're now taking over the prosecution of
21:05
Speaker 7: this case. And they take it off Knucklehead number three
21:09
Speaker 7: and they then say we're withdrawing the matter. And that
21:13
Speaker 7: was the end of that. That's how it was dealt with.
21:16
Speaker 7: So he goes to court expecting a big day and
21:20
Speaker 7: he leave's with his tail between his legs. So not
21:23
Speaker 7: satisfied with that, he then makes a complaint to the
21:27
Speaker 7: Ethical Standards Department about me being rude to him in court.
21:32
Speaker 7: And rather than make a few simple inquiries with my
21:36
Speaker 7: office and ask like, I'm being rude to him in court,
21:40
Speaker 7: that's it? What sort of offense is that? There is
21:44
Speaker 7: no offense. It's not like I've assaulted him or harassed
21:46
Speaker 7: him in he says I was rude to him. So
21:50
Speaker 7: rather than ring my office and find out what's going
21:52
Speaker 7: on with this, doing a little bit of initial action themselves, no,
21:57
Speaker 7: they just send the file out and get someone to
22:00
Speaker 7: actually physically interview me. So I'm subjected to an internally
22:05
Speaker 7: investigation based on a lie where they haven't even checked
22:10
Speaker 7: the veracity of the information, or they haven't done any
22:14
Speaker 7: sort of leap checks, because it would have found that
22:17
Speaker 7: I'm being harassed by these people because there are charges
22:22
Speaker 7: pinning against the victim of stalking, so you would think
22:26
Speaker 7: they could at least have done that, but they didn't,
22:28
Speaker 7: So once again I'm let down by Victoria Police.
22:32
Speaker 5: The tone of all this is that you and Victoria
22:36
Speaker 5: Police and the opp all have to abide by the rules,
22:39
Speaker 5: do you process and so forth, whereas these individuals who
22:42
Speaker 5: don't believe in the system can just make up whatever
22:45
Speaker 5: they like, come in there, use every single angle and
22:50
Speaker 5: you've got your hand tied behind your back and they're
22:53
Speaker 5: free to attack you, which seems incredibly oppressive.
22:57
Speaker 1: And I can imagine the stress and anxiety that it
22:59
Speaker 1: brought to you.
23:00
Speaker 7: Well, because it's consonant. It was over six year period,
23:04
Speaker 7: I was having to afi Davids for the OPP I
23:06
Speaker 7: was having to write statements and things for the stalking matters,
23:12
Speaker 7: and eventually knucklehead number two, as I said, he's stalking
23:17
Speaker 7: of me, eventually went to the counter terrorism So Knucklehead
23:21
Speaker 7: number two, who was eventually charged by counter terrorism team
23:25
Speaker 7: with stalking me. So I now had Knucklehead one and
23:28
Speaker 7: Knucklehead two charged with these charges by counter terrorism. So
23:34
Speaker 7: in the meantime, Knucklehead number two, who I charged with
23:37
Speaker 7: the traffic offenses, after about four years, we finally got
23:41
Speaker 7: him into court. He represented himself and started referring to
23:46
Speaker 7: me as a pedophile in the court, and like you
23:51
Speaker 7: were just indicating, he didn't have to abide by the
23:54
Speaker 7: norms of the court, because the magistrates and the judges
23:57
Speaker 7: wanted to give these people leeway so they can say, well,
24:01
Speaker 7: I gave him every opportunity, and we gave him a
24:04
Speaker 7: lot of lee with his mannerism and all the rest
24:07
Speaker 7: of it in order to get the job done, so
24:10
Speaker 7: they're not held to account. So when that matter did
24:14
Speaker 7: go before the magistrate, which he was found guilty of,
24:18
Speaker 7: he started referring to me as a pedophile and a
24:22
Speaker 7: terrorist in the court. And I'm sitting there listening to
24:25
Speaker 7: all this, and the magistrate is allowing him to say it.
24:28
Speaker 7: He's not holding him to account. So I stood up, pointedly,
24:33
Speaker 7: showed my disgust to the magistrate and walked out. I
24:38
Speaker 7: was told by my colleagues as soon as I walked
24:40
Speaker 7: out and did my best to slam a door, which
24:43
Speaker 7: is almost impossible to slam. He finally stopped him and
24:48
Speaker 7: found him guilty and sentenced him with a fine and
24:51
Speaker 7: whatever for these minor traffic offenses. So it was finally finished,
24:55
Speaker 7: but it actually wasn't because he then appealed that conviction
25:00
Speaker 7: into the county court. So we then go to the
25:03
Speaker 7: county court some god no six months later for an appeal,
25:08
Speaker 7: and the appeal is heard by judge only, so the
25:12
Speaker 7: matter's appeal there, and I turn up to court because
25:16
Speaker 7: I have to give evidence. We basically retry the same thing.
25:20
Speaker 7: So knucklehead number two is there, but also knucklehead number
25:23
Speaker 7: one's turned up. Now Knucklehead number one he's on bail
25:28
Speaker 7: and part of his bowel conditions is not to be
25:30
Speaker 7: within one hundred meters of me or harass me. Knucklehead
25:33
Speaker 7: number two, of course, he's also in the same bait.
25:36
Speaker 7: But we have to be in caught together because he's
25:39
Speaker 7: appealing his traffic matters. So I bring it to the
25:44
Speaker 7: attention of the prosecuting barrister and say, listen when we're
25:49
Speaker 7: going to court, because I'm going to be the first
25:51
Speaker 7: witness when we're going to court. I want knucklehead number
25:54
Speaker 7: one kicked out of court because he's in breach of
25:57
Speaker 7: his bail. He's not allowed to be within one hundred
26:00
Speaker 7: meters of me. So we're going to court, and sure enough,
26:03
Speaker 7: knucklehead number one is in there, and he's advising knuckle
26:06
Speaker 7: at number two, who's representing himself. They always represent themselves.
26:11
Speaker 7: So I indicate to the prosecuting barriers so that knucklehead
26:16
Speaker 7: number one is there, but he ignores me. Once again.
26:21
Speaker 7: I'm being let down by these prosecutors. So he ignores
26:26
Speaker 7: me and he just starts asking me questions to introduce
26:30
Speaker 7: my evidence in chief, and I didn't answer his questions.
26:33
Speaker 7: I turned to the judge and I said, excuse me,
26:35
Speaker 7: but this person over here he shouldn't be in court
26:39
Speaker 7: because he's on bail and part of his bowel conditions
26:42
Speaker 7: is he can't be within one hundred meters of me.
26:44
Speaker 7: So the judge wants to know the ins and outs
26:46
Speaker 7: of all that. So we go through that and she
26:49
Speaker 7: makes a very wise decision. Her decision is not to
26:53
Speaker 7: tell him to leave the court. No, she tells me
26:57
Speaker 7: to leave the court and to give my evidence from
27:01
Speaker 7: another room in the county court via video link. So
27:06
Speaker 7: I'm the one who gets punished for him breaching his bail.
27:09
Speaker 7: I get kicked out of court, so I go to
27:13
Speaker 7: another court room. You're basically talking into a video camera
27:18
Speaker 7: to give your evidence. So I start going through my
27:21
Speaker 7: evidence in chief, pretty disgusted as to my treatment so far.
27:26
Speaker 7: And then once that's done, knuckle that number two decides
27:30
Speaker 7: he gope to cross examine me. So he starts cross
27:33
Speaker 7: examining me, and he refers to me as a terrorist,
27:38
Speaker 7: and he's not stopped by the county court judge. He
27:42
Speaker 7: makes other derogatory remarks to me, constantly refers to me
27:46
Speaker 7: as a defective rather than as a detective. It's just
27:51
Speaker 7: a niggerly, little stupid thing, but it's an abuse of
27:55
Speaker 7: the standards of what they should be complying with. No
27:59
Speaker 7: barrister or solicitor or police officer for that matter, will
28:03
Speaker 7: get away in a courtroom saying words like that without
28:07
Speaker 7: being rebuked by the magistrate. He then asks me some
28:12
Speaker 7: questions which have no relevance at all, and again this
28:17
Speaker 7: is going unchallenged. So he starts asking me about knucklehead
28:23
Speaker 7: number one and how I kidnapped him. No relevance at
28:26
Speaker 7: all to the traffic matters. I I'm talking into the camera.
28:29
Speaker 7: I say, well, I'm sorry, but I don't think any
28:31
Speaker 7: of these questions are relevant. I get rebuked by the
28:34
Speaker 7: judge saying it's not up to me to determine what
28:37
Speaker 7: relevance is. Well, apparently in her court, relevance is whatever
28:42
Speaker 7: you like to say, because there's got nothing to do
28:45
Speaker 7: with the appeal. Then finally he does it again and
28:49
Speaker 7: refers to me as a terrorist, and by this time
28:52
Speaker 7: I've had an af so I point direct ly end
28:55
Speaker 7: of the camera like this and I said, don't you
28:58
Speaker 7: fucking call me a terrorist? With that, my screen went blank,
29:04
Speaker 7: and I was sitting there for about ten minutes wondering
29:07
Speaker 7: what the hell's going on. That's true, As it turns out,
29:12
Speaker 7: I get a call from the clerk from that courtroom
29:16
Speaker 7: and I've been asked, in a very polite term, to
29:19
Speaker 7: come back to court six. I think it was when
29:22
Speaker 7: we were having the hearing. So I go down there
29:25
Speaker 7: and I find the court is totally empty, but my barrister,
29:30
Speaker 7: my prosecuting barristers sitting out the front of the court
29:33
Speaker 7: and I said, well, what happened there? Am I in
29:35
Speaker 7: trouble for what I said, and he said no, he said,
29:39
Speaker 7: what happened was after you made those comments, knuckle Had
29:45
Speaker 7: one and two just went absolutely berserk. They started abusing everybody.
29:50
Speaker 7: They wanted me to be arrested, et cetera, etc. And
29:55
Speaker 7: it was just complete mayhem in the court. The judge
29:57
Speaker 7: had lost control of the court and Nuchael had one
30:02
Speaker 7: and two stormed out. The judge gave them about inns
30:05
Speaker 7: in which to return, which they didn't, so she decided
30:09
Speaker 7: that Michael had too had on his own accord abandoned
30:14
Speaker 7: his appeal and the appeal was struck out. But it's
30:17
Speaker 7: just a circus, you know. It's a complete circus.
30:23
Speaker 1: It really is. And all you've done is your duty.
30:26
Speaker 1: You've got a duly issued warrant.
30:29
Speaker 8: This is where this all begins, and it's now just
30:31
Speaker 8: an abusive process where you're the one who was running
30:35
Speaker 8: the risk of a contempt of court, whereas these guys
30:38
Speaker 8: have complete contempt for the whole process which was this
30:41
Speaker 8: s followed you into retirement better and other police officers
30:44
Speaker 8: have basis as well. And I think it probably is
30:47
Speaker 8: time that particularly is this. Recent events in the High
30:50
Speaker 8: Country demonstrate these people do exist, and they're in numbers,
30:53
Speaker 8: and I wonder what can be done to safeguard the
30:56
Speaker 8: system to make sure these individuals can't abuse that system.
31:01
Speaker 8: While I guess the system wants to give equal access
31:06
Speaker 8: to people in court to make their matters, what can
31:09
Speaker 8: be done to safeguard the integrity of the system.
31:12
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, there's a total lack of justice for
31:15
Speaker 7: victims of these people. You know, in my case, I
31:18
Speaker 7: was left down by Victoria Police with the kicking the
31:22
Speaker 7: footy to each other as to who's going to take
31:24
Speaker 7: the whot potato to investigate. I've been let down by
31:28
Speaker 7: the judges and the magistrates for alan these people to
31:31
Speaker 7: run circuses and run rings around them in their court.
31:35
Speaker 7: And there is no consequences for these people. And because
31:40
Speaker 7: of that, they're given breath to continue to flow out
31:44
Speaker 7: the law and attack police using the legal system, which
31:48
Speaker 7: of course they ain't believe in. But look, there's a
31:52
Speaker 7: number of things that can be done. I think first
31:55
Speaker 7: of all is people need to be held to account.
31:57
Speaker 7: They need to be identified, and I think Victoria police
32:01
Speaker 7: need a standing sort of task force that identify as
32:07
Speaker 7: sovereign citizens and similar to the Sex Offenders Register, we
32:12
Speaker 7: need a register of these people. So when police are
32:15
Speaker 7: dealing with and they know the sort of person they're
32:18
Speaker 7: dealing with, and they know that they have to deal
32:21
Speaker 7: with them in a certain way, and it would at
32:24
Speaker 7: least a learn them to who these sovereign citizens are
32:27
Speaker 7: and what the outcomes could be and that they need
32:29
Speaker 7: to be dealt with very carefully. As I said earlier,
32:34
Speaker 7: knucklehead number one he thinks it's his constitutional right to
32:37
Speaker 7: go on a shooting spree. That's the sort of thing
32:40
Speaker 7: that the police need to know that that's the person
32:43
Speaker 7: they're dealing with. Secondly, judges and magistrates, they need to
32:48
Speaker 7: be educated. People always say, oh, police need to be
32:51
Speaker 7: educated about how to deal with people who have mental health.
32:55
Speaker 7: Police need to be educated about people who have diabetes.
32:58
Speaker 7: It's all about educating the police. I think it's time
33:02
Speaker 7: that the education was given to other people, such as
33:05
Speaker 7: magistrates and judges, so they know that dealing with people
33:09
Speaker 7: who are used delaying tactics to engage in when they
33:12
Speaker 7: face court, they need to know that things like the
33:17
Speaker 7: way they do. They need to know what their delaying
33:20
Speaker 7: tactics are, such as they claim they haven't got a
33:23
Speaker 7: copy of the brief which they have. I've charge nucklehead
33:26
Speaker 7: number two with three briefs over a period of two
33:29
Speaker 7: years because he claimed and repeated to claim that he'd
33:33
Speaker 7: never got a copy. It's just a way to delay things.
33:37
Speaker 7: The fact is that they bring in and they go
33:39
Speaker 7: sick at the last minute. They then need a long
33:42
Speaker 7: adjournment because they need to read up about the brief
33:44
Speaker 7: they're going to represent themselves. Another one is they turn
33:48
Speaker 7: up to court and they go, oh, I've got no
33:49
Speaker 7: documents here to refer to, so I needing the German.
33:53
Speaker 7: They'll sabotage their own prosecutions by yelling out expletives, calling
33:59
Speaker 7: witnesses by names, asking irrelevant questions, going on monologues, all
34:04
Speaker 7: that sort of thing. These magistrates and judges need to
34:07
Speaker 7: be aware that these are the tactics they use and
34:11
Speaker 7: they need to stop it from happening in their court.
34:14
Speaker 7: The opp the legal system they also let us down.
34:18
Speaker 7: They need to prosecute these people, regardless of cost. They
34:23
Speaker 7: send frivolous minor charges. They always a tactic of theirs
34:28
Speaker 7: is always to appeal and if they can have the
34:31
Speaker 7: matter heard before judging jury, regardless of it being easier
34:36
Speaker 7: to be heard in the lower courts, in the magistrates' court,
34:39
Speaker 7: they will always opt to go for trial before judging
34:42
Speaker 7: jury because they know on minor charges the OPP aren't
34:47
Speaker 7: interested in prosecuting them and they will withdraw charges, and
34:52
Speaker 7: that's what they're hoping for. The indiventional orders taken out
34:56
Speaker 7: by sovereign citizens should be checked. If we had a
34:59
Speaker 7: register of sovereign citizens and when they take our intervention
35:03
Speaker 7: orders theyre identified as such, then they should not be
35:06
Speaker 7: actioned until the information that they provide is verified. That
35:11
Speaker 7: would stop these ridiculous, frivolous and false intervention orders being
35:17
Speaker 7: taken out and any complaints being made to investigative police
35:22
Speaker 7: oversight bodies such as PSC and IBAC. They should be
35:26
Speaker 7: properly triaged. So again, the information that they're providing to
35:31
Speaker 7: these bodies are properly looked at and properly determined as
35:35
Speaker 7: to whether there's any legitimacy to them or not. So
35:39
Speaker 7: there are a number of things that can be done.
35:41
Speaker 1: They are the OPP is probable in this as well.
35:44
Speaker 7: That's exactly right. The OPP are very culpable with this
35:47
Speaker 7: because in the end, Knucklehead one and two were charged
35:51
Speaker 7: with stalking me and knucklehead at number one was also
35:55
Speaker 7: charged talking to other police officers who copped a lot
35:58
Speaker 7: of abuse as much as what I got. So Knucklehead
36:01
Speaker 7: number one his trial came up first, so you had
36:06
Speaker 7: three victims, myself and two other police officers. He again
36:10
Speaker 7: defended himself. If this went to trial before judge and
36:13
Speaker 7: jury could have been heard in the magistrates court, but
36:17
Speaker 7: that's what he wanted to He wanted to get it
36:19
Speaker 7: into the higher courts. We went through a trial at
36:23
Speaker 7: lasted pretty close to a couple of weeks because every
36:28
Speaker 7: time the judge made a ruling he would appeal the
36:32
Speaker 7: judge's ruling to the appeals court. So we had to
36:36
Speaker 7: wait a few days while I went there on appeal
36:38
Speaker 7: and it would come back and of course they'd find
36:41
Speaker 7: the judge's decision was proper, but every time he made
36:45
Speaker 7: a decision he would stop and go, I'm going to
36:47
Speaker 7: appeal that. In the end, the judge said, you can
36:51
Speaker 7: appeal all my decisions after we're finished. But by this
36:54
Speaker 7: stage we've been going for a couple of weeks. When
36:56
Speaker 7: I gave my evidence to the court, of course he
37:00
Speaker 7: was cross examining me in front of a jury. He
37:04
Speaker 7: would refer to them as a liar, as a defective,
37:08
Speaker 7: and the judge just didn't pick him up on any
37:11
Speaker 7: of that. So all that's going to the jury. And
37:15
Speaker 7: one stage I did answer a question that I answered
37:18
Speaker 7: all these questions, but I did answer one question where
37:22
Speaker 7: I said, oh, yes, and because of people like you,
37:25
Speaker 7: such and such. Right, I can't exactly remember what the
37:28
Speaker 7: answer was, but because I said the words people like you,
37:32
Speaker 7: the judge decided I was casting expersions on him and
37:36
Speaker 7: I was held to account and I was not allowed
37:38
Speaker 7: to refer to him. I had to refer to him
37:40
Speaker 7: as the accused or the defendant.
37:43
Speaker 10: Right.
37:44
Speaker 7: I wasn't allowed to suggest that he was a particular
37:48
Speaker 7: type of person, yet he was free to refer to
37:51
Speaker 7: me as a liar and a defective. So the double standards.
37:57
Speaker 7: So with that trial, the three of us, the three victims,
38:00
Speaker 7: we gave our evidence and what have you. And before
38:04
Speaker 7: that trial finished, the prosecuting barrister came over to me
38:08
Speaker 7: and said that the prosecution of the trial for Knucklehead
38:12
Speaker 7: number two that was going to be withdrawn by the
38:17
Speaker 7: opp I said why. They said, well, regardless of the
38:21
Speaker 7: outcome of this trial, they're not going to go ahead
38:24
Speaker 7: with it because it's such a minor matter and it's
38:26
Speaker 7: not in the public interest. So he gets off. He
38:30
Speaker 7: gets off with stalking me, sending out harassing emails and
38:34
Speaker 7: disgusting emails at that, So then that one's gone. In
38:39
Speaker 7: the trial of Knucklehead number one, you wouldn't believe it,
38:43
Speaker 7: but we had a hung jury, so they couldn't decide
38:47
Speaker 7: whether this blake was stalking us or not. So the
38:50
Speaker 7: jury was hunt so there was no verdict. The prosecuting barrister,
38:56
Speaker 7: who is a freelance person, he's not with the APP.
38:59
Speaker 7: He recommended the matter be retried. The judge who heard
39:04
Speaker 7: the matter he also recommended, and that it be retried.
39:08
Speaker 7: The opp said it's not in the public interest. So
39:13
Speaker 7: we went through four years of being stalked and all
39:18
Speaker 7: the rest of it, and getting these bikes to trial
39:20
Speaker 7: for the opp to pull the rug out from under
39:23
Speaker 7: our feet. And it is just an absolute disgrace.
39:27
Speaker 1: It really is.
39:28
Speaker 8: And this has sort of followed you all these years
39:30
Speaker 8: into your retirement and all you've done is just work
39:34
Speaker 8: in the public interest. It seems like they say it's
39:36
Speaker 8: not worth prosecuting these matters because there are trivial nature
39:40
Speaker 8: not in the public interest. But it seems like the
39:42
Speaker 8: upholding the integrity and dignity of the police officers involved
39:45
Speaker 8: is also not in the public interest.
39:47
Speaker 1: So you left iron dry.
39:49
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, we're not a priority for the OPP. We're
39:52
Speaker 7: just people there to be pushed and shoved around. But
39:55
Speaker 7: you're right. It did follow me into retirement, and because
40:00
Speaker 7: of the opp's decision not to retry all head number one,
40:06
Speaker 7: what he then did was he took out a civil
40:09
Speaker 7: lawsuit against me. So he wanted to sue me in
40:14
Speaker 7: that I had falsely imprisoned him back in twenty sixteen,
40:18
Speaker 7: now we're now talking twenty twenty two, and he named
40:22
Speaker 7: me and some other police officers as defendants, which was
40:26
Speaker 7: a mistake because you can't sue individual police officers. So
40:29
Speaker 7: he then had to redo it, redo his writ and
40:33
Speaker 7: he nominated Victoria Place, but then of course names us
40:36
Speaker 7: within the writ. So the VGSO then took over that
40:42
Speaker 7: on our behalf and had to defend us in the
40:46
Speaker 7: county court with civil writ. They then wanted me, Now
40:51
Speaker 7: remember I've been retired for probably six twelve months. They
40:57
Speaker 7: then wanted me to prepare an affidavit for them and
41:01
Speaker 7: provide them with all my documentation in relation to these people.
41:05
Speaker 7: And I said, well, why don't you go and visit
41:08
Speaker 7: the people at the opp They've got everything, They had everything,
41:13
Speaker 7: and I said, I'm retired. I don't have those documents anymore.
41:17
Speaker 7: Yet they were still trying to get me to do that.
41:20
Speaker 7: It took them a year, and that it was finally
41:24
Speaker 7: in July twenty twenty three, was finally knocked on the
41:29
Speaker 7: head by the Candy Court. But it took them a year.
41:33
Speaker 7: So this is the problem. You know, these people get
41:37
Speaker 7: away with the minor things. If they keep getting away
41:39
Speaker 7: with the little things, they're going to take another step forward.
41:42
Speaker 7: It's a bit like the old Give them an inch
41:45
Speaker 7: and they'll take a mile. Every time you put a
41:47
Speaker 7: line in the sand and they cross it and you
41:49
Speaker 7: don't hold them to account, they will just continue to
41:52
Speaker 7: attack because that's what they do.
41:55
Speaker 8: Unbelievable, Sorry, Peter, and I think it's going to raise
41:58
Speaker 8: a lot of questions. And I think, as this recent
42:01
Speaker 8: matter has as well, that we have these individuals in
42:04
Speaker 8: our society who want all the benefits of our civilized,
42:08
Speaker 8: fair legal system without having any accountability themselves. And police
42:14
Speaker 8: officers such as yourself, are having a.
42:16
Speaker 5: A front court at massive public cost for these vexatious,
42:20
Speaker 5: silly actions.
42:22
Speaker 1: What all you've been doing is your lawful duty, and
42:25
Speaker 1: I thank you for that.
42:27
Speaker 11: I'm sorry that you have to go through this, and
42:29
Speaker 11: I think it's a very good point about a review
42:31
Speaker 11: has to happen now because unfortunately the publicity these sovereign
42:36
Speaker 11: citizens have gotten during this latest outrage may embolden.
42:40
Speaker 1: Others to thumb their those at the system.
42:44
Speaker 8: And I think it's quite hilarious that on the one
42:47
Speaker 8: hand they don't believe in the system, but I don't
42:49
Speaker 8: believe in government or the courts or the police.
42:51
Speaker 1: But they believe in social welfare. I believe in being
42:54
Speaker 1: on the dole or you know, disability to support pensions.
42:58
Speaker 1: You can't have it always, can you?
43:01
Speaker 7: No, you can't have it both ways, but that's what
43:02
Speaker 7: they want. A little anecdote for you. Prior to knucklehead
43:07
Speaker 7: number one may becoming involved with knucklehead number one, he
43:11
Speaker 7: had been to court for other matters in the past,
43:14
Speaker 7: and for one of his misdemeanors he was given a
43:19
Speaker 7: penalty of doing I think it was one hundred hours
43:22
Speaker 7: community work. I did speak to the Justice Department in
43:28
Speaker 7: relation to what he did. And what he did was
43:32
Speaker 7: he would turn up and abuse everybody. So rather than
43:38
Speaker 7: going out on his work detail or doing what he
43:40
Speaker 7: was told to do, he would refuse to do it
43:44
Speaker 7: and he would just abuse people to the point where
43:49
Speaker 7: people in the Justice Department didn't turn up to work
43:53
Speaker 7: because they were being abused. So what they did is
43:57
Speaker 7: they referred the matter back to the court and said,
44:00
Speaker 7: this is not an appropriate penalty for him because he
44:03
Speaker 7: just refuses to comply with our direction. So rather than
44:07
Speaker 7: hold him to account, they changed I think they changed
44:10
Speaker 7: his penalty to be of good behavior for a year
44:14
Speaker 7: or of two years or something like that, which of
44:16
Speaker 7: course he gets off scott free.
44:20
Speaker 1: Really, so this is unbelievable.
44:23
Speaker 4: It's a sobering story, and I think it really provides
44:26
Speaker 4: an impetus for the system to review this and to
44:29
Speaker 4: make sure these individuals can no longer harass and intimidate
44:33
Speaker 4: and manipulate the legal system.
44:34
Speaker 1: Thanks for your time today, mate, Thank you, and.
44:37
Speaker 7: Thanks for the opportunity to tell you my story.
44:44
Speaker 1: That's retired Detective Peter Coss.
44:46
Speaker 6: On these so called sovereign citizens, they want it every way,
44:50
Speaker 6: they want to have legal protections while not giving any
44:53
Speaker 6: respect to the system that looks after them. They're on
44:55
Speaker 6: social welfare, they reserve the right to tie the courts up.
45:00
Speaker 6: And the Cost of the story we've just heard to
45:03
Speaker 6: the public Purse is absolutely unbelieved, and I certainly think
45:06
Speaker 6: this is a case for a big review and as
45:09
Speaker 6: Peter cost has suggested, some sort of rechister so we
45:12
Speaker 6: know who these people are, these pseudo lawyers who want
45:15
Speaker 6: to use the system to their own benefit while not
45:18
Speaker 6: respecting it.
45:20
Speaker 1: Have you had dealings with these people? I'd love to know.
45:22
Speaker 12: I think there should be a lot more discussion about this,
45:25
Speaker 12: So give me an email if you like on Adam Shann.
45:27
Speaker 1: Writer at gmail dot com.
45:29
Speaker 12: You can also always contact us with stories at by
45:32
Speaker 12: email or if it's more serious, care crime Stoppers one
45:36
Speaker 12: of the other Triple three, Triple zero, and this has
45:39
Speaker 12: been aving Shampoo Real Crime.
45:40
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
45:51
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45:55
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