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REWIND: Captains of the Pirates Ship · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to another edition of Pittsburgh Sports Memories.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: On this episode of the podcast, we'll be talking about the captains of the ship.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: And no, there'll be no captains of I don't know.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Do you know any famous captains, Tim?
0:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, the guy from the Titanic.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: He's kind of more infamous.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Jack Sparrow.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: That's a Jack Sparrow.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Captain Kangaroo.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: But as usual, I'm the co-host Steve Wert, and I'm joined with by Hi everybody.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim Hannon.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: And obviously we'll be going over uh four different managers of the Pirates.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: And um they all had they were all successful, so we won't go over like Gene Lamont or John Russell or Lloyd McClendon.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, those guys didn't make the cut.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: But uh we go over four guys that were very successful in their tenure with the Pirates.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: Um two of them won World Series and two of them didn't, but they all had different ways of handling the rosters.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it's a long time.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: This episode, I mean it runs from probably 1950 to 19, 2018.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: So that's you know, people change, times change, baseball probably changed, so without further ado, we will jump right in.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: And I guess we'll just run this kind of chronologically here.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Um first up was a one, Danny Murtaugh.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: And uh he was born in Chester, Pennsylvania, and uh he actually played second base for the Pirates from 1948 to 1951.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: He was a career 254 hitter.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: He also played for the Phillies and Brave, Boston Braves.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: So um, and he became the Pirates manager for the first time, and he has kind of a weird run.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Like he's like I don't know how to describe it, like you know Billy Martin, how he had like four different like stints with the Yankees, like Danny Martaw, kind of like the same thing happens with him.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: But it's not it's not because like he was just like a really angry person and just kept getting himself fired.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: He was he had he had some health problems, and that's probably what really affected his career in in more than one one way than just not managing the whole time.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: So in his first full season in 1958, he led it he led the Pirates to a surprise second place finish in the National League, and this is back when they just had two to no, actually they just had one that was just the National League.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: We talked about that in um the uh 1960 World Series episode.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: But um he went on to hold the Pirates job for uh part of 15 seasons after that, 1958, um, from 57 to 64 and um 70 to 71 and 73 to 76 in uh a brief time in 1967.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Um is probably his biggest uh well, I mean, one of the biggest things he did was he he was the manager of the 1960 World Series team that beat the Yankees.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: Um we covered that in another podcast.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: His managing of the pitching in the ninth inning, I think, was superb.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: He he did the best he he had.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: He really was he wasn't like you know, if you like the other, you know, the other manager Casey was it Casey Stingle, yes, I think it was for the Yankees.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Get gets a lot more credit than I think Casey Stingle's in the Hall of Fame even.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: But I it's just he doesn't get a lot of credit for that ninth inning, I think, and it's I I don't know.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: It seems to be kinda he's overlooked in I I I think that there he is you know, there's a lot of reasons for that, and we'll get into that.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: But um so it then he had uh only won over 500 seasons after the 1960 World Series.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Um if you remember in the 1960 World Series, the Yankees outscored the Pirates 55 to 27 because every game the Yankees won, they blew the Pirates out.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: But the Pirates won the series because they won the other games that were close.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: So after the win, uh his quote was after the series was over, he said, It's not the number of runs you make, it's the number of games you win.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: It was just typical of my ball club, a fighting ball club all the way.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: So kind of, you know, stating the obvious there, you know, you can lose every game a hundred to nothing, but if you win the ones you need to, it doesn't really matter.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: Scoring all those runs in those other games really doesn't give you an extra win in the win column.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Um he did step down as manager in 1964 before his 47th birthday.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: He was rumored to be having heart trouble.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: But then he came back in 1960, what was I what did I say, 1970?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: And uh they won the NL East again in 70, so you know, as soon as he comes back, but the Pirates, I think he realized the Pirates had some talented players, namely uh Roberto Plumene and Willie Stargeel, and you know some uh you know, Steve Blast, some really good players.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: But they lost to Cincinnati that year in 70.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: And then in 71, that that's another World Series that we really haven't cut covered.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Um they beat a team, the Orioles, that had four 20-game winners, and those uh can you name those four 20-game winners, Tip?
6:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh Jim Palmer.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: Um that's it.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: That's about all I could probably do.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Jim Palmer, Jim Palmer, and Jim Palmer.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: It was Dave McNally, Mike Quellar.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: I think I there's a way you're supposed to pronounce a name.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: And Pat Dobson.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely would not have gotten that.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Um and they were actually down two games to none early in that series, but they had a memorable comeback and they forced the game seven.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: And if you watch the game seven, like it's really is the Steve Blass and Roberto Clemeny show.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of the opposite of what he did in the 60 World Series, where he just, you know, he had to really juggle his starting rotation.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: He, you know, shows some patience and just sticks with Steve Blass for a full nine innings, and Clemeni hits a couple home runs, scores a couple runs, and uh they win.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates win two to nothing and win their uh win a World Series in 1971.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: Um something else he did that was interesting was um he fielded the first all African American lineup.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Um he was the first manager they know of.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Um and the Pirates in that game, to their credit, did beat the Phillies 10-7.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Um the lineup, uh can you name any members of the lineup of that 71 Tim?
7:30
SPEAKER_01: The 71 team Tim.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh the one that the all the all black lineman?
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Um Stargil, Clemente, Sanghian, uh Rennie Stenon, maybe.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, now it gets good.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: Doc Ellis.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Picking.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh obviously.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't think he was high at the time.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully not.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: That's about all I can get to you.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I did you name Al Oliver?
8:04
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, Al Oliver, no, I did not.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Dave, Dave Cash and Jackie Hernandez, some of those guys, Gene Kleins.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: I've never heard of some of those guys really.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: But you know, obviously Manny Singh and Stargil, Plumene, you know, Doc Ellis, all the those are more guys we've heard of.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: But um, but the just like to show the type of person that, you know, and how much Danny Murtaugh thought or cared about this was they asked him about the lineup, obviously, and he said, you know what?
8:36
SPEAKER_01: I knew we had nine pirates.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: So so I mean, you gotta love it.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, the guy just was like, you know, he's gonna put the best team out there.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: And he said, when it comes to making out the lineup, I'm colorblind and my athletes know it.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: They don't know it because I told them, but they know it because they're familiar with the way I operate.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: And um, that's probably um Dating Werthall, the best way to conduct yourself in that that situation, I would say.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: I love that words, uh, actions are greater than words.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: That's a great way to go about your business.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, as opposed to like the way people are now.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: That's an older generation, too.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, he's definitely, you know, a generation that's not around anymore.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Because he's even like really older than the World War II generation.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: And that that's just how those generations were.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: It was more about what you did than what you talked.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Seems like nowadays it's more about how much you talk than what you actually accomplished.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I mean, now there's social media, there's branding, there's uh image.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: People are very image conscious, that kind of stuff.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, somebody like him, he just he wasn't ver worried about Ricky signaling or anything like that.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: He just, like you said, he was just like, well, these are the nine best players, so I'm gonna put them in.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: And you know, he wasn't, I don't it sound it doubt very doubtful that he was realizing he was making history.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: He just was like, These are the nine best players I have, I'm going to play them.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so unfortunately, once again, his uh his heart trouble gets the better of him.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: And in 73, the Pirates are struggling 67 to 69.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't I think this is for real.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: This isn't like Urban Meyer heart trouble, like, oh my god, they're gonna fire me.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: Because every time he like he just leaves and goes to like the front office, and the team never really fires him.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: They keep him around.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: He never really left the pirates.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: He just would go to a front office position because I guess his health, you know, and back then they didn't have you know, obviously the modern medicine that they have now that maybe would have helped him or probably like smoking and eating a really bad night didn't help help Danny Martal there's case.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: But um he he did stay he did come back and uh he he actually picked his successor that time, Bill Verden.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: And um and then in uh I think later in seven in the 70s, um Bill Verden gets fired, unfortunately.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: Bill Verden would go on to manage the Yankees, if I remember correctly.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: So he got fired from Steinbrenner fired him too.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: But um I met Bill Verdon.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: He was a very nice guy.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: I think he coached on the Pirates in the 80s and 90s, too.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: He had to because that's when I met him.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I was not meeting him in 1974 before I was born, but he just he just passed away recently, I want to say the last two or three years.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So and a great, great ball player, too.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Bill Vern was a very good ball player.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: I think he was on he was on the 60 team.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: He was, yeah.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Because we had talked about in a previous episode, we talked about how many, amazingly, how many of those guys from that 60 team are still with us.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think Bill Verdon might have been one of those guys when we did that episode talking about it until he passed away.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and um so Murtaugh stayed through the 76th season.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they actually won uh titles uh in the NL East, which you know still that's just the NL East and West.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: There's no divisions in 74 and 75, but they fell to the Dodgers and the Reds in those years.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: The Reds were really boy, the Pirates just for years could not get past the Reds.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, the Dodgers that one year, but it seemed like every year they lost to the Reds.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: And after a second place, and they had a good team.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: It's just you know, the Reds were really good in the 70s.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: No, that was before Fernando Mania, because that was in the 80s with the Dodgers.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: So after a second place finish in 76, Murtaw and Brown, uh, that was the general manager, uh, announced their retirements during the final week of the season in as in December of 1976.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: After he kind of like did like a Bear Bryan.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: He was only retired for two months and he had a stroke and passed away.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: And he he was 59 years old.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: I hate to say only 59 years old, but as you get older, it seems that's it as I get closer to 59 years old, Tim, it doesn't seem as old, does it?
13:20
SPEAKER_01: As when you were 20.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's like, oh man, that guy's 50, he's really old.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: And now it's like, it's only 50.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's still way too young, 59, and and like you said, different time, different lifestyle choices.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, you talked about like that old older generation.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: There's there's you know, like the pros and cons, right?
13:41
SPEAKER_00: Like some of the ways they handled things were a lot better than the ways we handle things, but maybe the the lifestyle kinds of choices that they made were were a little more harmful, although you know, we still tend to do that today.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it it it seems like gosh, only 59.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: It's such a long career.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 15 years with the pirates, yeah.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and like it wasn't it wasn't like he ever got fired and came back.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like um Billy Martin, where it's like, oh, I fired him and comes back, fired him, came back.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: No, he would just go up to the front office or scouting and do that, and then you know, kind of come back and help the team out and manage him again.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, Danny Murtaugh is not in the World Series.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Can you believe it, Tim?
14:27
SPEAKER_00: In the Hall of Fame, you mean?
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Did I say World Series, yes.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: I meant Hall of Fame.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: He was in the World Series, he was not in the Hall of Fame.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: He is not in the Hall of Fame.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, how many managers have won multiple World Series?
14:39
SPEAKER_00: I'd I'd love to see that stat.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Like how many and in the world.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: There's actually Yeah, somebody I found the website, they actually did an article on the the they they call it the case for and against Danny Warthall.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: And I I thought it was interesting.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: I didn't agree with it in everything, but at least I thought they were at least fair, and I can handle fair.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: If I don't agree with you and you're fair, at least you were fair to him, and I thought they were fair to him.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: So the Pirates for there tried to make a case for him, and um he has two World Series, and he actually has a better winning percentage than Connie Mac, and Connie Mac is the all-time wins leader, just for that.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: But Connie Mac has like I I looked it up, but I think Connie Mack has like 3,000 wins.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: And Murtaugh Murtaugh only has 1100.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and Connie Mac managed for 50 years, and a lot of those years were financial distress years for the VA's, and that's when they were moving from Philadelphia to Kansas City because of said financial distress.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: So but didn't he manage the Phillies too?
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Or no, it was it was the Athletic.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: It was the only VA's?
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: You would think that since I just went to Philadelphia and saw the Connie Mac statue.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: So they have a statue to Connie Mac in front of the Philly Stadium, so go figure.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: With some quote by Connie Mac on it.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: So and guess what?
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Connie Mac is wearing a suit and tie in his statue because he's one of the he he he managed in a suit and tie.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: How do you like that?
16:15
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Man, I actually fun fact, Steve, we covered it in our You Didn't Remember they played for Pittsburgh episode.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: The only other team Connie Mac managed was the Pittsburgh Pirates.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: But that was before that was before he managed the A's.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: That was in the 1890s and the Pirates fired him because they're like, this guy sucks.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: 3,000 wins later.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, Connie Mac is a legend.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think second is Tony LaRussa now.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: I did look that up.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: And Tony LaRussa's I think did he retire from the White Sox again?
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think he finally quit just very recently.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Tony LaRussa is, I mean, been managing since the 80s, so he hasn't quite had 50 years, but he's definitely had 30 or 40.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: So um the problem is, like I said, Murtaugh only has 1,115 wins.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's more than some other Hall of Fame managers, some guy named Southworth and Harry Wright.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Murtaugh's 540 winning percentage was better than eight Hall of Famers.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Tommy LaSorda, Connie Mack, Bill McKechnie, the other Pirates manager.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, Casey Stengel.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Actually, better winning percentage than Casey Stengel.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, there I answered my own question.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Casey Stengel is in the Hall of Fame.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, six Hall of Famers didn't have as many wins as Murtaugh's two World Series.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Leo DeRocha, Earl Weaver, Ned Hanlett, yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Wilbert Robertson, I don't know who he is, but I know Earl Weaver and Leo DeRocher is.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: So obviously Earl Weaver, who didn't get one of his World Series, two of his World Series because of Danny Murtaugh.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: And uh Leo DeRocha, manager of the Dodgers.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, if you want to know, let's know more about Murtaugh, the person, because you know, we can argue over his Hall of Fame.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: But I just I think I the more the older I get, the more I Mario Lemieux is right.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: Any award that you're is voted on really doesn't matter.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what goes on to the Hall of Fame.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the arguments are he doesn't have a lot of wins because his health he didn't manage consistently enough.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: Maybe if he manages through those years, some of the teams in the 50s and the 60s weren't really that great, and um, so he his losing percentage was like, you know, he didn't win as many games as maybe you would have liked, but but um uh let's see.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: Steve Blass said, I love that man.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: He was never unprepared, he knew the game inside and out, inside and out.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: When any kind of situation came up, he was able to deal with it quietly and effectively.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: You could never have too many Danny Murtaughs in the Hall of Fame.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: That was Steve Blass from a Pittsburgh Post Gazette article in 2009.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Bill Verden, uh, the man who was fired and he replaced, but that was his handpick suspense successor.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: So he deserves it.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm all for it.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: I wish I could vote.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: He was the best thing that ever happened to me in baseball.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: I played for him and he set me up to manage.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: Anytime he'd have a chance, he'd tell me why he did something.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: I thought of him as one of the best in the business.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, his record would have been better if he had not retired four different times because of health problems, but it says a lot that the Pirates kept asking him to come back.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: That was Gene Alley.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: He actually, now the case against Danny Murtaugh, Chuck Tanner has more wins than him.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know who else.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh Billy Martin has more wins than him.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: So it's just it it that's that's I think that's why they argue.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: And then like this guy like argued, oh Bill James came up with this.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Bill James came up with um sabermetrics or you know, all the the money ball stuff that has become so in vogue lately.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: And it it's just he comes up with this low they call it the lowest common denominator argument, and like, oh well, you're just getting the lowest, but at some point, like there are people that are C students and still pass the class.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: So because you're a C student, you don't deserve to pass the class.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I that would be my argument, is like they're saying that Murtaugh's a borderline case.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, borderline cases are always going to be more controversial than Connie Mack.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Connie Mac's a shoe-in.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Tony LaRoousse's a shoe-in.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, the shoe um Joe Torre's a shoe-in.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, of course, I probably could have managed those Yankees teams and won at least one World Series, but I mean it I I I don't know.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: It's people get too wrapped up in, you know, the statistics.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: And the problem is that the candidate being champion is near the bottom of those statistical categories.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: So, like my you know, like the old saying, lies, damn lies in the statistics.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: I just it and like part of the statistic was uh wins above expectations.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Gee Tim, I didn't know you could quantify expectations.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, well, my expectations figured out to be a three, or you know, and uh that I was expected to be a seven, you know.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: I how do you quantify human emotions?
21:56
SPEAKER_01: When you figure that out, tell me because you're making like you're gonna make a billion dollars in a Metaphor field.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: And it's just sometimes you have to set the number.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Like the numbers can point you in the right direction, but sometimes you just have to look at the picture and use common sense.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: And and I understand we have to draw the line somewhere.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: And some in borderline cases are always going to be the toughest because you're going to argue for and against.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: So because if the because then if you let him in like, well, what about, you know, all those other people?
22:28
SPEAKER_01: What about Chuck Tanner?
22:29
SPEAKER_01: What about this person?
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Well you know Yeah, I was trying to I was trying to think of a good comp, and the best one I could come up with was Sito Gaston, who was the manager for the Toronto Blue Jays, Who also won multiple World Series and who you know the Blue Jays.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: They mentioned him.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they mention him.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: The Blue Jays were pretty good the whole time he managed them, or were generally competitive the whole time he managed them, but he doesn't have a ton of wins.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't have a bunch of stats, and people don't think of his names when they think of the great managers of his era, you know, like Tommy Lassorda or Tony LeRusse or whoever.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: So uh whatever.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, like Mary Lamy said, awards that people vote on are always going to be flawed by humans.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Um I think Danny Murtaugh's legacy in Pittsburgh is pretty secure.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I I always knew who he was, um, obviously, from from those pirate teams, but I think I I came to appreciate him more after the episode, Steve, that you did about the the 1960 World Series, and folks can go back and listen to that uh if they want to, because there was just so much chess match kind of stuff happening because it was such a close uh especially game seven.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And he really did outmatch Casey Stengel in that World Series, and that was a big reason why the Pirates won.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't just Mazarovsky hitting a home run in the bottom of the ninth.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: It to get to that point, Danny Murtaugh did a bunch of stuff that that led them there.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, all he had to do was manage his way around, you know, Maris, Mantle, and Barra.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: With the winning run on base.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: So I I I think, like I said, I think his legacy is secure here in Baseball Hall of Fame.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean, these are the same people that won't put Roger Clemens in and Barry Bonds in, but you know, or Pete Rose in because XYZ.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: So it that kind of stuff just I I the baseball hall of fame to me is pointless.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Remember a couple years ago when Ken Griffey Jr.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: wasn't unanimous?
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, somebody did it just because it was a protest vote.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: I I forget why.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Because because nobody had been unanimous since like Babe Ruth or something, and he just but it's like that's so stupid.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: You're just you're not voting for a player that you should vote for because of some reason that has nothing to do with that player's performance.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Again, that's that that to me that that kind of invalidated the whole process for me.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: It already had been invalidated with all the other stuff.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: But the base to me, the baseball hall of fame is the most useless hall of fame, so whatever.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't care if Danny Murtaugh's not there.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: He's still a great, yeah, it doesn't disminish diminish his career accomplishments at all.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: And like it's so weird, like they want to cherry pick, like, oh, we're all about the numbers now, but then when the numbers point in a different direction, they're not about the numbers anymore.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's just it it is what it always is, and uh I I I I don't know what what to say except for lies, damn lies, and statistics, and the Hall of Fame and the Heisman Trophy and the MVP award, and like that's I just don't care about them.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: I I just there's no like the Heisman Trophy, like literally didn't go to Jim Brown, went to you know, Don, what's his name, the Golden Boy from Notre Dame, just because they they were a bunch of racists.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: So it you know, they they they like you said they invalid, they they take their own reputations in you know what am I trying to say, like get rid of them, like they make their own credibility, they they lose credibility because they just don't aren't honest.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And I I think you could accept, at least in that article with that other guy, like besides the Bill James stuff, which I thought was a little ridiculous, at least he I think he makes a fair case.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: And he did mention Seto Gaston and you know some of the other people.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: Danny, Danny Murtaugh, like hope hopefully, like maybe someday, like the the Veterans Committee'll, you know, I think he still has a chance in the Veterans Committee, but it just depends on who he's up against.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh moving on uh to one Charles Tanner or Chuck Tanner.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: Um this guy, I I call Danny Martha, was definitely a manager ahead of his time with the all the pitching changes and such.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Um there this guy was the eternal optimist.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: And this is the weirdest thing I've heard of.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: And we I I don't think we've ever covered this in any of our podcasts.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm surprised him like in your fun facts or weird things you didn't know episodes.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: We we've never cut covered this.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe we have, I don't know.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Did you know in November of 1976 the Pirates traded Manny Sangian for Chuck Tanner?
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Really?
27:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the only the second time in Major League Baseball history that a player has been traded for a coach or a manager.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: And I can't think of besides John Gruden, has there been any other in any other sport?
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Like I can't think of basketball.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Has there been I can't think of any coaches who've been traded to basketball or even hockey?
27:58
SPEAKER_01: Like that's the four major sports, so you know hockey, I guess, is kind of a major sport.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean besides John Gruden going from the Raiders to Tampa Bay, that was part of a trade, right?
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they had to give him graphics.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: And that that's it.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: And uh they they got uh Manny C in the Z he sent his manager, the guy for the Oakland A's, uh Chuck Tanner, because he was managing the Oakland A's at the time.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: And he sent him for Manny Sangean and a hundred thousand bucks.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: And the the other time that MLB history where a manager was part of a baseball trade was 1960, ironically enough.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: And Indian manager, Indians manager Joe Gordon, and Tigers manager Jimmy Dykes were they actually traded managers for each other.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, we like that's so weird.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: We like your manager.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: No, we like your manager.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: Let's trade.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: I did not know that.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: That was a good fun fact.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's weird.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Um some quotes about Chuck Tanner, um, Goose Gossage, who was a reliever for the pirates.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, my dad still was upset about Goose Gossage not getting traded.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Um Chuck Tanner saw Gossage's awesome potential as a late-meaning reliever.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Um in 77 he helped acquire Gossage in a trade and moved him to the bullpen.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: Because I guess Goose Gossage was a starter and he wasn't very successful as it, and he moved him to the bullpen, and that just totally, you know.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: That was his quote.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: Chuck was totally responsible for me being a relief pitcher.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: They were instrumental to me early on in my career.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: So Mike Easler, trust me, uh Chuck Chuck was always known as this nice guy, like kind of you know, happy, go like you've ever seen interviews, I've seen interviews with him.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: He's like kind of like I said, the eternal obstin optimist.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: But um Mike Easler had uh tempered that with this.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: Trust me, Chuck had the personality and demeanor to deal with it.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: Nobody messed with Chuck.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Chuck's word was gospel.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: When he said to do something, you did it.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: If you didn't, you'd be in his office against the wall and he'd tell you, I'm the manager.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: So not a pushover, and especially with that clubhouse, he had Parker and Stargil, and you know, I'm sure he had to lay down the wall once or twice with some of the guys he had.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Um in 1979, really was his year, the year it all came together.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, they traded for him in 76.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: They still had a pretty good team when they brought him in, because they obviously still had Stargil and Parker, and you know, they didn't really the pitching, I think, was what kind of had to come together.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: So in '79, um, the family, they they started out slow and they weren't having a good season, and then halfway through the 79 series, I guess, or 79 season, the Pirates turned it around.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: There's a pretty cool like little blurp on MLB TV about it, like, you know, with Sister Sledge and everything.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, if you really want to listen to We Are Family, it's it's a fun song.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: So in August, they didn't take over the lead in the their side of their division from the Phillies until late in August.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, they they kind of didn't look back and uh they they went on the road, they won the NLCS.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: Um I think they beat San Francisco.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: And uh they went to Baltimore again for the second time.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: And uh that was uh that was uh Earl Weaver again.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: So poor Earl had to put up with the Pirates in Baltimore.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: We really do have a pretty good rivalry with the with Baltimore, huh?
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And uh they they were down three games to one and they forced the game seven and they won Game Seven on the Road in Baltimore, which if you've ever watched that game, have you ever watched the replay of that game, Tim?
32:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: I have, and um it's fun to watch because Howard Cosell announces it, and Howard Cosell is so rooting for the Orioles the whole time.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: It's hilarious, and it's fun to watch Howard Cosell be very disappointed.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: They had picture burnt by Levin, which I think I I saw a picture.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, didn't we?
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Was he the guy that likes likes farts?
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: Yes, he was the guy that used to wear the t-shirt that said um I heart to fart.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, you know, you know, gastrointestinal health is key.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Um uh in uh stars like Bill Madlock, Dave Parker.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: In uh, you know, Sparky Anderson, a Hall of Fame manager of his own right, said um they do everything with abandon because that's the way Tanner wants it.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: He's an aggressive manager, a manager who doesn't go by the book.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: That's why Pittsburgh is such an exciting team.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: I think what he figured out was he has Parker and Stargil, and he just was like kind of like the whole philosophy was let's get some guys on base and get them in the scoring position.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, Stargil and Parker will bring them home.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of how that they had, you know, Omar Marino, they had they had a lot of different guys like that.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Um uh who was the third base?
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Was it uh Garner, Phil Garner himself later.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: So I just it was lumber and lightning is what they used to call it, and um, it worked out for him.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: They came back and they won won the World Series on the road, and Kent DeCalvey got the save.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think Starjell hit a big three-run homer in the seventh or eighth, and they got some more insurance runs.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: And um that was it.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: And uh that would be the last time a team would win a game seven on the road.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: Until when, Tim?
34:13
SPEAKER_00: The 2009 Penguins.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: So it went a when it went a few years, and that's in any sport.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: So good for the Pirates.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: They kind of made history with that win.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: That's how hard it was to do back then.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, for some reason it seems to have gotten easier.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, so what happened was uh the 80s happened, and unfortunately, the 80s had this new drug called cocaine, and people really liked it.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: People named Dave Parker really liked it.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh unfortunately Rod Scurry liked it too, and Dale Vera, and um there were just a lot of problems.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: We went over that whole episode with the was it the people that the two fans that almost ruined baseball in Pittsburgh.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: So in 1985, the infamous Pittsburgh drug trials showed that there was drug problems.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: It was in the it wasn't just in Pittsburgh, it was across the league, but apparently like everybody came to Pittsburgh for the I I feel like I'm like who is it, like Ray Leota or something, you know, I got my Pittsburgh connection.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Like all the whole league was saying I think, hey, it's I got a I got my Pittsburgh connection.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: So for whatever reason, we were the hub of uh you know drug dealing in the 80s, and unfortunately that led to the downfall of Chuck Tanner, which is weird, like you know, that quote by you know who was at Mike Easler said that yep, Chuck Tanner could at times be tough, but hey, it's just I I don't I don't know, like uh for some reason he just ignored the problem that was going on or didn't notice it or I don't know.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: It was like like he said, Oh, I didn't know who that strange guy in the clubhouse was.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: And then I've costing really his his job and probably a lot of credit credibility in baseball.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: I think he went on to manage the Braves, but he never had success like he did.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: But the Braves stunk in the 80s.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: They really they had who they have and um Dan.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: That was it.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were just terrible every year.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I remember when the Pirates ended up playing the Braves in the NLCS a couple years later.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: That was so shocking.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: It would have been like the I I can't even think of a good comparison to the case.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: The Oc Linets or somebody a team that had been bad for for years.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh we we talked in that episode about Chuck Tanner, how uh he he was he was a disciplinarian in terms of you know what you did when you were on the field and your practice habits, but his philosophy was, you know, I'm not gonna babysit grown adults, they're they're gonna live their own lives.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: But then, Steve, you had made the point in that episode and you just made it now.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, fine.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: But like literally this stuff was happening in the locker room.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Guys are coming into the locker room to trade drugs and all the other stuff, and it's it's hard to believe he didn't notice that.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: But again, who who knows, right?
37:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if if people if you if you have a drug habit that's that's strong enough, you're gonna be good at hiding it, good at concealing it, whatever.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, maybe there's a generational gap there too.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: I remember the other thing I remember about that episode was uh Harvey Haddock's was the pitching coach at the time, you know, another old school ball player guy, and and they were interviewing him about Rod Scurry being up, you know, not being able to sleep for two days.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: And and Harvey Haddock's is like, oh yeah, I when I I used to ride the trains and we used to be up all night on the trains, and you know, it it just maybe there was a generational gap there of not understanding that this kind of thing could happen.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So they maybe that was I think they didn't maybe they thought it was like alcohol and how people just drank a lot.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Or just young people just being young people and yeah, you know, I I don't know.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: I really don't.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: I I but I can see that.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I can see that being a thing too.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: And like you said, cocaine was a very new thing in the eighties.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: It really was.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe there just wasn't the understanding and and tucked and are it it's just sad that that's the way his time in Pittsburgh ended because you know he people were really angry at the pirates at that in that era, and a lot of people blamed him, you know, and and again, maybe rightly so.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh but it kind of it kind of dampened his legacy.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's one thing to like if Dave Parker's in his home doing it, I mean you can't really control that.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: But if somebody's in the clubhouse, like why are you just letting random people in the clubhouse?
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, you can't be in here doing that.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: Um some some crazy stuff.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Um he he did like he, like I said, he uh like Sparky Anderson said, he really managed outside the box, and I think that suited him well.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Um he pinch hitted left-handed hitting Milner for righty Steve Nakosha, and um the guy was four for four, Steve Nikosha was four for four, and the bases were loaded and the score was tight.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: And so he puts in um Milner, and the guy hits a grand slam off of uh, I guess, Tug McGraw in the Phillies.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: So that was that was pretty cool.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Um remember, I think I told this one too, where he put Kent to Colvey in left field against the Giants so he could pitch uh Grant Jackson.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: That was crazy that story.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, it's funny because he ended up catching the fly ball like the Colvey, like they literally hit a fly ball to him to end the game.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he kent to Colvey's hilarious when he interviews like, please don't hit me the ball, and it ends up like going right.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like it was an easy one, at least.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: But uh, yeah, it just like you said, just I wish there's he would have been like more diligent for the drug trials.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: It probably would have been better to better to him.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: So in 85 the pirates really stunk.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: And so they hired this guy named Jim Leland.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's actually, you know, you think about it for Murtaugh to Tanner to Leland, that's three pretty solid managers in a row.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: And he was hired in 1986 and he managed the Pirates until 1996.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: Um and really after the drug trials, he got the Pirates back to respectability.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: And he's actually won two manager of the year trophies in 90 and 92.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, his players were Barry Bonds, Jay Bell, Tim Wakefield, Andy Van Slick, Bobby Bonia.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Um three straight seasons of National League Championship baseball.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, it didn't progress past that.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: I'll give him the Reds, but one of those series with the Braves he should have won.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Um still lives in Pittsburgh.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Um I have a clip.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: I can't play it because it has a bunch of cussing in it.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: But um, you can we'll post it uh he like I guess Barry Bonds in spring training one year was because he's Barry Bonds and was in a contract dispute and was like hassling Bill Verdon.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes, Bill Verdon has come up again in our podcast.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: And uh Jim Leland got sick of his crap and kind of cussed him out in the only way Jim Leland can.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: Um Jim Leland's the best.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: He smokes in the dugout, like and not vape, like like full-blown.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he he's gotta fire up a heater.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: He he really is like a throwback to like him and Danny Murtaugh probably would have got along great.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Probably.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: He I'm do you remember him throwing milk on the wall of the dugout?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: I I couldn't find any video or articles of that.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: But I do, I just making sure I do remember that.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: Um Barry Bonds, who the guy who he cussed out, and this is after he, like years later, Barry Bond said, the best I ever had.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: We have a great relationship to this day.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: He just had this vibe that you respected.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: He simplified things and acted in a way you could understand.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm almost grateful he cussed me out because it helped us grow so close that nothing could ever separate us.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was that was amazing to hear Barry Bonds.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: I've I've heard that interview too.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: And Barry Bonds is definitely mellowed out post-playing career.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: That tip that he always carried on his shoulder seems to have lessened a little bit.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: And for him to to reference that huge fight that they had and say, yeah, I was completely wrong, and and he was right for chewing me out was pretty shocking to hear him say it.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: That'd be like Antonio Brown 20 years from now, being like, you know, I acted like a baby.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: And right, like it just it would be weird to hear that.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: So um I just that says a lot about Jim Leland, I think.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Here's another fun Jim Leland story.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Rich Donnelly, um, who is the bullpen coach.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: Um one night in Shea Stadium, Leland had Bill Landrum and Bob Kipper warming up and then told Donnelly to have Bob Patterson start throwing as well.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: And Donnelly was like, I said skip.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: He says, Skip, we only have two mounds down here.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: And Leland's like, I don't give a crap.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: Have one of them throw sideways.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: So I guess he didn't want Davey Johnson, the coach of the Mets at the time, to know which pitcher he was gonna uh gonna put in.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: So he tried to have three guys swine on the war on the bulb.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh he would do stuff like that too.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: He would put placeholder people on deck, like so you wouldn't know, like, oh, he's not pinch hitting, or he's pinch hitting this dude, and then switch him at the last minute.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: So he would have made a good NFL coach.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: Who are we gonna start a quarterback this week?
43:44
SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna name our starter until Sunday.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: He'll never see it coming.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh so uh he loved the laugh.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Like uh Gary Reedis one time, I guess he would take a bathroom break, and I I think he Was smoking in the bathroom is what he was doing between the innings.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: And uh Gary Redis once stuffed a pair of shoes in a St.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Louis bathroom stall, paying on praying on Leland's between innings have it.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: After two unsuccessful trips, Bob Walk said Leland lost it.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: And Leland says, I don't know who the bleep is in there, but if they're sick, tell them to go the bleep in the clubhouse and get the bleep out of the bathroom.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: So eventually somebody pulled the shoes out and said, I hope they were messing with you.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: Um there's a great clip too of uh when he was manager in Detroit, he went to the he went to the Marlins after the Pirates, after the Pirates decided they didn't want to play winning baseball anymore and just wanted to sell the stadium and bobbleheads.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: And uh and he he he goes to he goes to the Marlins, wins a World Series there, and he ends up in Detroit with a pretty good team and has a lot of success there.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: They don't quite win a World Series, but they're pretty good.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: And he's arguing a call, and I don't know why, like nothing against God Bless America, but I don't understand why on Sundays in like the eighth inning we they they sing it at baseball games, but whatever.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: And so he goes out to argue with the umpire like during this break, and God bless America starts to play or be sung or whatever.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: He literally stops arguing with the umpire, puts his hand over his heart, like waits for the song to be over, and then just goes right back to manage like arguing with the umpire, and he's kicked out.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's another clip I guess I'm about to put up on uh yeah, it's it's hilarious.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh Jim Leland.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: Um there was one time I heard a quote from one of his players, they had a 20-4 loss.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't know which I don't know if it was with the the Colorado.
45:54
SPEAKER_01: It might have been when he was in he was short time in Colorado, too.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: Um he said he was gonna call the cops on the team for him for uh on the players for impersonating an M MLB player.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: He I get it, he's just wild.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just such a character.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: His his rocking care, he used to do these post-game interviews in like this wooden rocking care while he was smoking a cigarette.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: I always felt like that rocking care should be at like the Heinz History Center on display somewhere.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: With the Packamorbo Reds.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, with the Pack of Marbo Reds.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: Steve, you mentioned about how he still is in the area.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: There were rumors uh in the I think it was last year that he was gonna that the Phillies, the Phillies had fired their manager and they were looking for a manager, and he was actually rumored to be somebody they were interested in.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: And I I'm surprised that no one has started the rumor that you know could he ever come back to the Pirates.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: I believe he's 78 or 79 right now.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: So I don't see that happening, but boy, I it wouldn't that be fun.
47:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: Um he just you know, he's just a wild dude.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: And it was a lot of fun, you know.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: I just wish he would have won at least one World Series with that team.
47:14
SPEAKER_01: That was that was such a devastating loss in '92.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: And just, you know, the way it went down, and then for the team, just not even try and be competitive after that for a long time.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: And then they kind of faked it for a couple years and now they've gone back to like not even trying to be competitive.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: So um moving on to the last guy in our podcast here.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: Um I guess I don't know, like Clint Hurdle.
47:43
SPEAKER_01: Did does anybody remember?
47:46
SPEAKER_01: Um I I put the man who returned winning for a short period of time.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: Um I think mainly the biggest thing um so Clint Hurdle was uh he interviewed for both the Pirates and the Mets for their vacant managerial job, and uh he was actually hired by the Pirates on November 14, 2010.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: Six weeks after the immortal John Russell was fired.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Who I'm sadly has been overlooked in this podcast to have fired manager.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: And no offense against John Russell.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: I think he's like a fairly successful like assistant manager somewhere.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: It's not like his fault the pirates won't spend any money.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: His his record was I I don't have it in front of me, and this is a huge exaggeration.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: It was like twenty-three and three hundred or something like that.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: It was really bad.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: It was Hugh Jackson-esque.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: It was Hugh Jackson-esque.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: That's a good comp.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh he he had I think he had managed Colorado and taken them to uh a World Series, which they had lost, unfortunately.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh uh much of the delay, they couldn't hire him for six weeks because um the Pirates could not interview him until after I guess he was managing with the Rangers at that point in their World Series run.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: Um 2013, he broke the 20-year losing streak.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: That was that was probably like one of the bigger things he did.
49:08
SPEAKER_01: He was definitely the manager for the Cueto game, which we I think we actually did a whole podcast just on that game.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: We did.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: So um but then they lost to the Cardinals in the divisional round.
49:21
SPEAKER_01: Um they had Garrett Cole.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: Should they have started Larry Ono?
49:25
SPEAKER_01: I remember people like saying they we should have started Larry One or argue with like other people about that.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: That first game.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: I figured we we started did we have Burnett back then?
49:34
SPEAKER_01: I think we had AG.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: Well we started we started Garrett Cole in game five.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: I remember that.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: That was the big controversy was he was a rookie at that point, so but he pitched okay, he pitched well.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh they had that Waka guy who we could not hit.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: It's just yeah.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm not I don't want to spoil what happens after this, but it's a theme of Clint Hurdle's time in Pittsburgh that that he had some good teams, they were just never the best team.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: 2014 they made the playoffs and lost in the Giants, the infamous Madison Baumgartner game.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, and that was another Garrett Cole.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: He pitched Garrett Cole again.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: And that did Schwarber hit a home run offhand?
50:18
SPEAKER_01: I think Schwarber did.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: That was 15, but yes.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: That was the Cubs.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: Alright.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, and it's just that that loss to the Giants.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't as upset because I didn't I thought the Giants were a really good team.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: The Madison Baumgartner is a really good pitcher.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: The one that always kind of bothered me was 2015, that loss of the Cubs and that Joker of Arietta.
50:44
SPEAKER_01: That guy was on.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: That guy was on.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: There's no way that guy wasn't on some sort of steroid.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: He literally had six months of good pitching.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: And he's not done anything since.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: And earlier in the season, the Pirates had absolutely lit him up.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: So if he wasn't doing steroids, he was putting Spider-Tac on the ball.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: He was cheating in some way because the Cubs suck, and the older I get, the more I dislike the Cubs.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: I used to never like dislike the Cubs as such, but like I'm not even gonna play it because I have the clip of Jung O'Gong getting hurt.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: That killed us because we lost a big bat.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: And then you know, Joe Madden, oh, that's just good old-fashioned baseball, and baseball not giving a crap until like, oh my gosh, somebody from the Mets, Mets shortstop got hurt on a dirty slide.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we gotta get rid of it.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, why even like I just and then like our crappy owner does nothing about it.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, nothing about like any uh just uh it's a if we had a better owner, I think we have would have won a World Series just for the fact that like not even like the whole spending money thing, like that crap with the sliding and all that, some of these other issues that he just doesn't do anything about because well I'm getting paid.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just you could get paid more if your team was competitive.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: It he just doesn't care about winning.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: But that's another we've discussed that so many times.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, it's it's you're spot on with all that stuff.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: I I think you know, Clint Hurdle though, there there's I honest to God never thought I'd live to see the day where they'd win any two games.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: I just didn't.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: I thought that was just never gonna happen again for them to be over 500.
52:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh the fact that he did that and the fact that he did it for uh multiple seasons, uh it might you might never see it again.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, in 2019, he did get fired.
52:41
SPEAKER_01: They had some bad seasons.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think his team's underachieved a little bit.
52:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, especially they they should have beat the Cubs.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: They should at least beat the Cubs in that wild card game.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: It always seems like they are always in the wild card game.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: They they just needed to win more two during the regular season, and they could have avoided the wild card game and played in the actual series, and where if you lose one game, it's not the end of the world.
53:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the end of your at least the end of your season, yeah.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: That's a good point, too, because um they always hosted that wildcard game, too, which meant that they were the they were the first wildcard.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: So then they were, like you said to your point, they were very close.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: But they could never catch St.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: Louis.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, St.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: Louis just especially what's his the pool holes always seem to have their number.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: So out of the four people I've discussed, uh best manager out of the four of them, Tim, uh, I don't know.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, obviously Merth Murtal had the most success.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: Leland, I think Leland, I he didn't win a World Series, but he has more wins than any of them, actually.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: He is Leland has 17, 1,796 wins all time, and a winning percentage of 506.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: So Leland has been very successful.
54:04
SPEAKER_01: Tanner's second in the all-times win, he has more wins than Murtaugh, and I think Hurdle has more wins than Murtaw.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: So that's probably a big reason why Murtaugh isn't in the Hall of Fame.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: If he if he wouldn't have managed, if he would have managed those other years, he probably would have had more wins just for the fact that you know it's baseball and you're gonna at least win like 50, 60 games, you know, even if he his his winning percentage would have dipped, but his overall wins would have gone higher for sure.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: I I think uh one other thing to say about Leland is it it cannot be underscored how awful of a situation he stepped into.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: Um go back and listen to that episode we did call it how how two fans nearly destroyed the pirates because when he came in, they had they had what I called in that episode the worst season of any sports team in the history of the city, any sports team.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: And they were about to to either leave Pittsburgh or be contracted or something, right?
55:11
SPEAKER_00: Like they they were just done, they weren't even a franchise anymore.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: So I I just Leland deserves a bunch of I guess Leland I have a fondness for because that's my era of baseball, right?
55:22
SPEAKER_00: That was the era of baseball that I loved, and I love those teams.
55:26
SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I think Murtaugh has the track record of actually winning World Series.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: I think Tanner, obviously, the 79 World Series is very special, and then Hurdle, like I said, just being able to feel a winning team in an era where you had ownership that could have given two bleeps about winning.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh all four of those guys have their place in Pirates history, to your point.
55:50
SPEAKER_01: And it's nice to do.
55:51
SPEAKER_01: We we don't get to do a lot of pirates episodes because the pirates suck.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: And uh I just I I just happy to finally do one and you know, put some positive, you know, you they do have a very winning history and distinguished history.
56:05
SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just a shame.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: Like they they could rival the Cardinals if they they tried, as far as winning.
56:14
SPEAKER_01: And the I would I would you think in the National League are the Cardinals the most successful team?
56:20
SPEAKER_00: Historically?
56:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean Dodgers, maybe the Dodgers.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean the Dodgers probably have more World Series wins.
56:28
SPEAKER_01: No, the Cardinals have more World Series wins, don't they?
56:30
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the uh the the team with the most penance is um the Cardinals, I believe.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:38
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I mean if you're just going off of that, but then some teams have existed longer than others and all that kind of stuff.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: So I uh no, I I I I stand correct.
56:47
SPEAKER_00: The team with the most penance is the Dodgers, and the Giants are actually second.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
56:52
SPEAKER_00: So um it's it's Dodgers.
56:55
SPEAKER_00: Dodgers, Giants, Cardinals, Braves, Cubs, and the Pirates are sixth on that or seventh on that list.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: So for even all their ineptitude, they're still but again a lot of that goes back, you know, years and years and years too.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: So you you have to factor that into the mix, you know, the Arizona Diamondbacks haven't been around as long.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: Right?
57:18
SPEAKER_00: So um you're right though, it's sad.
57:20
SPEAKER_00: The pirates have a good history, uh, but it feels like it's like gets further and further away, you know, every year, and it becomes more and more ancient history.
57:31
SPEAKER_00: And we'll always celebrate it on this podcast because that's what this podcast is about, Pittsburgh Sports History.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: But when you're a fan of the current team and you see, you know, they did a social media post just this week celebrating Roberto Clemente Day and everything, they had a celebration for that, which is which is great, and they should honor that kind of stuff.
57:50
SPEAKER_00: But then at the same time, it makes you think like, okay, it just reminds you that, you know, of all that was once good and that is not today.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, staying on the positive, Danny Murtaugh was really good.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: And uh and we we've had four really good managers, and two of which, well, three of which I remember, I mean, I remember going to games and seeing Chuck Tanner there when I was a kid.
58:16
SPEAKER_01: So three of these guys have happened during our lifespan, Tim.
58:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's not, you know, not like Fred Clark and Bill McKechney, you know.
58:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
58:25
SPEAKER_00: There's there's been some things to celebrate.
58:27
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: So um thank you for uh tuning in.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: That wraps it up.
58:31
SPEAKER_01: If you have any comments, uh please email us or leave a comment on any of our social media, Twitter, Facebook.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, send up a smoke signal, me and people see it.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: Um join us on uh any any of our podcast areas to like what iTunes, Spotify, blah, blah, blah.
58:47
SPEAKER_01: You know what you're looking for.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: But um, thank you for tuning in.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: Word of mouth, it's always great too, and um, we'll catch you next time on the next Discord.