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7. Sovereign Citizens, part 2 · Dumb Defenses

• Frankie: Hello, and welcome back to the Dumb Defenses podcast, where we go around the world and through time to bring you the weirdest legal theories. I'm Frankie. And we are continuing our discussion on sovereign citizens today, ⁓ thanks to one of our most loyal listeners, we do have a few outside conspiracy theories to ⁓ discuss so briefly. ⁓ Judah: I'm Judah. ⁓ and I've got a new one for you today. So Frankie: So, dear listener who shall remain nameless. ⁓ Judah: They didn't want to say say their name. Frankie: Well, they were concerned about some potential hot takes on their hot takes on conspiracy theories. Judah: Alright, I'm gonna pretend that their name is Extravaganza Supreme. Frankie: I think they would appreciate that. Okay, so they said, I couldn't think of just one, but here are the ones I do be loving to talk about. Number one, 9-11 was an inside job and Israel was the push behind it. They said Yep. They they said, as a Jewish person, I'm not a Zionist. Netanyahu is a the literal devil. I happen to agree. Judah: I've heard this one. I've heard this one. ⁓ I d I don't believe in literal devils, but I do believe I do believe in figurative devils. Frankie: Maybe not literal devil, but but n Netanyahu has some despicable political stances. Mm-hmm. ⁓ a whole genocide going on. They said they don't love the theory for its content, but for its relativity as to what BB is doing now ⁓ and has doing to Palestine and also just Judah: Like the genocide. There's a whole genocide happening. Frankie: ⁓ a good land grab and the US is just a puppet in his hand with it all. ⁓ So there's that. Number two, the End of sentence. ⁓ Judah: Okay. The Bible. The Bi So there's so many conspiracy theories about the Bible. Have you heard about the Bible code? So f for our dear listeners who don't know what the Bible code is, they think that if you lay the Hebrew scripture, I think especially out in squares, that connecting symbols spell out predictions, it is Frankie: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And that to and and you know, a lot of it is kind of revisionist like looking for things that have already happened. Like they claim to have predicted Kennedy's assassination and Lincoln's assassination and stuff like that. But it's it's people like going through and looking like a word search and Judah: Okay. Except for like another scientist did it just to show how ridiculous it is with Moby Dick. And they're like, Look, Moby Dick also predicted the future. If you're doing this word search style, any long book that you have will do this. And there's that thing about these prophecies only coming to light after the event actually happens, so people don't know about them before. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Judah: You can only interpret the prophecy after the events happen, which is not a prophecy. It's just navel gazing. Here's since we're on this, you're gonna let me be a little ADHD today. There is an actual conspiracy theory in the Bible. Frankie: Yep. Yep. Hmm. Okay. Judah: So, you are a Jewish person. I don't know how familiar you are with the New Testament. There is a very important figure in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul. Happens after the time of Jesus. The Apostle Paul wrote a bunch of books, and his journey started that he was a Pharisee. He was prosecuting and persecuting the early church. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-mm. Okay. Judah: And then he has this vision of Jesus and changes his life around, becomes an early church founder. So, of the books that we have in the Bible, there are several books where the Apostle Paul is super radical. He's very egalitarian, community-minded, very early out against slavery. ⁓ He treats as equals, the first convert to Christianity. From the Apostle Paul is actually eunuch, so a gender minority. ⁓ he wrote books. There are many books of his ⁓ the Bible, a few of which we can actually point to, The Radical Paul, he wrote, ⁓ on, at least two people wrote other books of the Bible pretending to be Paul to ⁓ the work that he did. ⁓ Frankie: Mm-hmm. Like a tyrannical de facto government. Judah: Yes. And those books also made it in the Bible. Frankie: Ha ha ha. Judah: So there's a real conspiracy in the New Testament. This Apostle Paul, here's the books we know he actually wrote, here's the books he might have written, and here's books that he for sure absolutely did not write, which go back and try and his work ⁓ and either soften or completely reverse his message. And people like right-wing Christians credit the Apostle Paul guess which the only books that they cite? Frankie: Did not write. The ones that he did not write. Judah: The ones that we know he did not write. Real life conspiracy theory, really in the Bible, fun story, Wikipedia that shit. Frankie: That's awesome. Number three. Tom Clancy was working for the CIA. they say, I've never read a single book of his, but my very conservative father has, and I love the idea that his books were just puff pieces for the already right leaning ding dongs to like, ⁓ my god, the feds are so cool and patriotic and I love them and I want to be them. especially in a post nine eleven world full of beer drinking, keyboard clacking, wannabe vigilantes, it worked. That is, if it's a conspiracy theory. Judah: Well, y you have all kinds of copaganda. I think that you could say that about a lot of things. There are films like Top Gun that we know were partially funded by the Air Force 'cause they made the Air Force seem so cool. Not unreasonable. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. ⁓ and then number four is Richard of York didn't kill his two nephews. I think Henry or someone close to him did. but I think that Richard hid the body somewhere else, and that's why the archaeologists haven't found the remains, or at least have been able to confirm it as of yet. I think that he was integral to the plot, but not the murderer. Yeah. Not that's one I had not heard of, ⁓ so maybe might be a fun one to dig into at some point. Judah: ⁓ we're going way back on that. Or like how many people they think Shakespeare was? Like he wasn't Shakespeare, he was really this person, he was really this person, he was really this person. Okay. New conspiracy Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Okay. So fa th thank you, dear listener. That was that was fun and gives us some fodder for down the road. Judah: Thank you, extravaganza Supreme Pizza, ⁓ our new favorite listener. New conspiracy theory just from this weekend for you. I went to the Sasquatch Summer Festival in Oak Ridge, Oregon. Frankie: Mm. Okay. Judah: I thought it was at least partially going to be tongue in cheek. No no. Frankie: Mm-hmm. So Judah: No no, there there's so much to dive into, which I can share with you later. But my favorite new conspiracy theory is there was a bunch of Sasquatch living in the lava tubes in Mount Saint Helens and when it erupted the helicopters that you saw were Black Ops helicopters sent to remove Sasquatch bodies so we didn't know ⁓ exist. ⁓ Frankie: ⁓ my god. Judah: But I was thinking if they were in the lava tubes and lava was coming ⁓ the surface ⁓ Then they would be bits of charcoal. Why would you need to airlift them out? Frankie: Yeah. Maybe they floated. I ⁓ Judah: well then we have to also believe that Sasquatch is essentially fireproof. ⁓ they were living in lava tubes, who knows? I wanted to share that one with you. Frankie: Yeah, they might be. Probably That's awesome. Alright, so getting back to our dear friends, the Sovereign Citizens. Last week we started talking about the Moorish branch of the Sovereign Citizens. I'll do a little bit of background and then I think Judah has a little bit of a deep dive on them. ⁓ Judah: it's not a deep dive. We're talking about a cult. ⁓ And ⁓ ya dude here to about a cult. Frankie: Yep. So let's do a little bit of the background here. They began in the nineties in New York City when the Moorish Science Temple was introduced to sovereign citizen concepts. they focused on the hostility towards the government rather than towards racial or religious minorities, ⁓ and adopted most of the traditional sovereign citizen ideas certain additions. One of the things they added was a focus on the 1786 treaty between the US and Morocco, which they claim gave blacks special privileges and immunities, they claim indigenous status or being from another country or nation. And that's how they sort of fall under this treaty. they also will claim diplomatic status, including license plates, passports, etc. ⁓ Or claim that their groups are consulates or embassies. So a lot of the same sort of like general genre of sovereign citizen stuff, except instead of the whole blacks are only 14th Amendment big C citizens, they're like, We're special from before there was even a constitution. ⁓ or right around same time. Over time they would pull in people from various fringe religious groups like the Nuabian Nation, Black Hebrew Israelites, and others, but also from mainstream groups like Black Panthers. ⁓ And opened up the sovereign citizen ⁓ movement every race, ethnicity, and background, and it is the most diverse American group on the far right. That's what I got. That that was what well in all of my ⁓ eight that's what I pulled out. ⁓ Judah: So in my spare time I watch many garbage documentaries. It's pulp reading for the eyes. some of them are. ⁓ for instance, I just watched A Flash of Beauty Colin Paranormal Bigfoot. Frankie: Call them garbage. But you're a cryptozoologist, that's research. Judah: Yes, I am a cryptozoologist. It goes to my accreditation. people to know. so I watched People magazine investigates cults. Like ⁓ all of ⁓ the ⁓ And Nawabian Nation Moors ⁓ Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: is peak. And then I watched yeah. And then I watched How I Escaped My Cult. Which is just Yep. So the Nawabian Nation starts in New York and it really starts as this sort of black identity, like Islam identified, empowerment, and Frankie: Yeah, it's it's a cult. Mm-hmm. Those are always fun. Mm-hmm. Judah: I would say that you see some similarities to the Black Panther movement in housing people, feeding people, educating. the is it's ⁓ all focused led by one dude, Dwight York. ⁓ And I necessarily categorize this ⁓ as only sovereign citizens. The cult goes through ⁓ different ideations and belief systems ⁓ they ⁓ up ⁓ to Georgia. It becomes ⁓ of a ⁓ ⁓ sun worshiping ⁓ ⁓ leader is, you know, the god the center the religion ⁓ and when some former ⁓ adherents spoke out and there was a giant raid. It turns out that Dwight York was committing horrible acts of child sexual abuse. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. I've actually saw one time we're gonna talk about the one documentary where there was no weird sex stuff going on in the cult. It's like the only one I've ever heard of. There's always ⁓ sex stuff. ⁓ Frankie: What? In a cult. Judah: Include I'm gonna include Heaven's Gate for the no sex self castration thing. That's a weird sex thing. ⁓ watching these ⁓ I a huge amount of empathy for adherents ⁓ because ⁓ has a horrible with racism and this ⁓ was Frankie: Yeah, that is a weird sex thing. Judah: development of an identity, of a community, a safe space, a structure that felt empowering, a way to ⁓ escape American culture, ⁓ which incredibly violent towards of color, ⁓ violent and And then ⁓ as you watching this you see Frankie: It felt like a safe space for them. Judah: the kind of general stratagem of a cult leader come forward with the ⁓ radicalized beliefs, inability to communicate with outside culture, outside people, all these different mechanisms of control. ⁓ Then you know, the huge exodus ⁓ to this rural where, you know, to be safe ⁓ and the armed guards The interesting thing about this though is how the federal government and local authorities plan the raid, learning from Waco massacre, and they nabbed the leader when he was outside of the compound and then went in when the head leadership wasn't present ⁓ to ⁓ interview and evaluate ⁓ Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Judah: Dwight York is in prison for the rest of his life for the horrible things that he's done to children. He still has adherents. You know, there's Frankie: Yep. Yep. They don't tend to, you know, stop adhering when the leader goes to prison. We've seen that multiple times over. Judah: Yeah, the the idea of cognitive dissonance came from sociologists studying a doomsday cult. You've probably heard that story. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: understand and Moorish sovereign citizens more than do ⁓ white people. not saying that it's great, I'm saying that ⁓ you have better reason. ⁓ Frankie: Yeah. Yeah, they we've been ostracized by society, so why answer to it? Judah: Yep. And also, a lot of black people in America, we literally kidnapped them. And then we enslaved them. And then we enslaved their children. So Frankie: Yes, yes, yep, yep. And we continue to do that in a structural fashion today. Judah: Yes, if you would like to hear us talk about slavery in prison and the imprisonment of black bodies, black and brown bodies, please give us four to six hours. Frankie: Or a future episode. Judah: Yes. ⁓ that was that was my bit. The Nawabian nation is one of those fascinating lesser known cults 'cause there wasn't like ⁓ ⁓ there was horrifying child sex abuse. ⁓ Frankie: Yeah. Yep. And the Moorish Science Temple also kind of read a little culty in what I was looking at. ⁓ it's just it it's ⁓ all sorts of people trying to give a home to people of color and then abusing that attention. So there's that. ⁓ Judah: Targeting vulnerable populations. there's a serial researcher who says that he only focuses on, you know, studying victim groups ⁓ and it's women and gay men. That's who he really focuses on and how you see those also pop up in cult structures. ⁓ Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that tracks. So with that, I think there was a specific little nuance of sovereign citizen ⁓ that Judah wanted to talk about. let's set it up with this is on recent court case overturned what's called Chevron Deference. ⁓ fine. ⁓ Okay. ⁓ Judah: L let me let me do that. Cause that's that's my whole bit. So I I wanted to find something that sovereign citizens are like grasping onto as a win for the sovereign citizen movement. And they have latched onto the overturning of a policy called the Chevron Deference. And most people have probably never heard of the Chevron Deference because ⁓ is so narrowly applied. So here's how Frankie: Well, and it's not applied to anything that anybody would ever see in their daily lives. Judah: No, not unless you work for Frankie: for an alphabet soup agency. Judah: Yeah, for specifically for the federal government. what the deference ⁓ used to be was that federal ⁓ when interpreting federal rules. ⁓ Frankie: For the federal government, yep. Judah: had to defer their opinions, their judicial opinions, to how the federal administrative agency in question internally interpreted those rules. ⁓ Frankie: Right. And the the reason for this is is that the judges were essentially like, Y'all are the experts in these areas and so why would we know any better than you do? this rule came out of a case called EPA versus Chevron from the eighties, where Judah: Nineteen I wanna say eighty-four. ⁓ Frankie: Something like that, yeah. this issue up between Chevron, the gas and EPA because Chevron was ⁓ violating EPA rules. ⁓ Again. ⁓ the court said, We're gonna question the EPA how they interpret their rules because ⁓ they have all of the scientists experts ⁓ Judah: Again. Frankie: who are able to apply the rules appropriately, we don't have that educational background. Judah: And they are applying the rules in action. Then ⁓ twenty four, the Supreme Court issues an opinion on Loper Bright Enterprises versus Raymondo. And it says, No, federal judges ⁓ make their own interpretations ⁓ ⁓ how the agency is interpreting their own policies. ⁓ Frankie: Because fuck precedent. Judah: I'm gonna put a pin in this and also say that when you're looking at administrative rules, it is a rule book really that that administrative agency has to follow. And they also write their own rule book. Frankie: They do. they have to put it out for public comment for a period of time before any rules change. but it is the that they are supposed to follow and it's really fun when you're going up against a state or federal agency and you say, But have you read your rule book? And you're able to cite it back to them chapter and verse and they're like, Wait, what? Judah: I do this I do this all the time. So in Oregon, the law is the Oregon revised statutes. So the legislature makes the law a you know, and we have Court of Appeals and Oregon Supreme Court, sometimes federal court, interpretation of Oregon law, and you can reasonably say that the Oregon revised statute applies to everybody. The rules are the Oregon administrative rules. We call them the OARs. ⁓ are billion of them. ⁓ And only helpful when you're questioning the representative of a state administrative agency and you're like, hey, you ⁓ these and you have to follow your own rule. Why aren't you following your own rule? So we do that really regularly. ⁓ So If this sounds like really boring and distant and far away from you as an average citizen, you ⁓ correct. ⁓ are a hundred and ten percent correct. So Loper Wright Enterprises says, All right, judges, it's not even saying like that ⁓ case law and old Frankie: Yep. Judah: Judicial opinions are wrong. It is saying you, the federal judge, can interpret ambiguous statutes ⁓ rules ⁓ than how the agency itself does it. ⁓ ⁓ the land ⁓ federal administrative law. I can't imagine this comes up all that often, because it only applies to ambiguous rules. But here we go. So that's overturned. And this little thing has been celebrated as the federal government removing its power from itself. Frankie: and consolidating it in the Supreme Court, right? Like it just transferred. Judah: Well, there were so many different interpretations. I tried to watch some YouTube videos on this made by sovereign citizens themselves. And I'm not gonna cite them here, cause you shouldn't watch them, 'cause I didn't finish them. No, that's at all what that does. It's say, ⁓ this is the beginning, this is Donald Trump who's some Some sovereign citizens, even though he's making a huge federal power grab, is like, no, he's our hero. ⁓ is like, no, you just have the same attitudes. Yeah, that cognitive dissonance. You know, that this court or his court ⁓ is out the bricks of federal power, and this is like the base of the tower, and it's gonna come ⁓ crumbling when ⁓ in the ⁓ Frankie: Speaking of cognitive dissonance. Judah: It doesn't apply. It doesn't apply. Sorry, this is my mom texting me. ⁓ mom. ⁓ I wanted to bring that forward as like this is what they're saying ⁓ a win. There was no sovereign citizens involved, as far as I could tell, ⁓ the opinion ⁓ even reading the opinion to me was dull. Frankie: No worries. Yeah, it I mean it was a big deal ⁓ in terms like anybody working for the government was like, ⁓ what the just happened? because for so long it had been that it's like we're able to go do our own thing and be able to apply our own rules without the court intervening, and now the fear at least on the part of the federal agency people that I've spoken with is that ⁓ now the gonna insert itself in everything and essentially make the government non functioning, which I I suppose is a good thing for sovereign citizens, right? Judah: Well, it's been two years that hasn't happened. I imagine that there was a lot of new rulemaking and clarification because if a rule is ambiguous, unlike a law, the agency can go through a much simpler process of changing it. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: So what I deal with day is administrative as they apply to the Oregon Department of Human Services Child Welfare Division. ⁓ And ⁓ are, guess, kind of copied ⁓ into ⁓ ODHS Welfare Manual, which ⁓ itself Fluctuates between like nine hundred and fifty pages and eleven hundred pages. Frankie: It's there's so many rules. Judah: There's so many rules and that manual changes all the time. Like if you're gonna try and cite the manual in court, every single time, even if you checked it and you got it the month before, you have to check to make sure that you have the most updated copy because the administrative rules have changed. Frankie: Yep. Yep. Judah: Frankie, do you think that big win for sovereign citizens everywhere? Frankie: I mean, as I talked through it, I see how they are excited about it. I think their probably short sighted. because rather than ⁓ the federal power being ⁓ scattered to the wind of the Alphabet soup agencies, it's now being consolidated in the President and the Supreme Which I ⁓ don't think is something that they would actually want because I like wouldn't be in favor of tyranny. Judah: Th well they're they're consolidating federal power, which is the opposite goal of the sovereign citizen movement. But in a way it's like we're also dealing only with federal administrative agencies. We never had anything like the Chevron Deference in state court. Frankie: Right. Mm-hmm. Right. At least not in Oregon. Yeah. I wonder if we might see more 'cause we're gonna about to dive into paper terrorism, I wonder if we're gonna see more of that coming up through ⁓ with the deference going ⁓ because now they have more stuff that can file on potentially. Judah: At not in Oregon. I've people try it. I've seen it tried to absolutely no success. ⁓ Shocker because doesn't apply. And we can already ask the judge ⁓ to hey, ⁓ they're that they followed this administrative rule, Judge, to find no reasonable efforts. I want you to find that they did not follow that administrative rule. That's a no reasonable efforts finding in a hearing. Frankie: Mm-hmm. It doesn't apply. Right. Judah: that we argue about I mean that's my bread and butter baby. ⁓ argue about no reasonable efforts all the time. ⁓ Frankie: Yeah. Yep, which, there's potential monetary sanctions on the by the feds and blah blah blah blah blah. ⁓ All sorts of fun stuff there. But yeah, so like this whole idea of additional filings, paper terrorism. Speaking of bread and butter, that is the bread and butter of the sovereign citizens is this and they literally call it paper terrorism. it's not like a colloquial term that I'm throwing on there. Like this is what they call it, this is their intention. Judah: Yeah, no. Frankie: Essentially what it is is abusing the legal system with indecipherable filings and lashing out with even more filings when confronted. So they're using ⁓ this weird quantum that will attempt to explain ⁓ either this week or week, depending on how far we get, that makes it really difficult read ⁓ and It's literally like the purpose is to gum up the legal system. Judah: So let's put a pin in this for our non-lawyer friends. So there are certain types of things that we can file that would generate a court hearing. And you can request a hearing on it, you can dictate the amount of time in your motion caption, and you can serve it out and you can pull people into court. what's a common one? Frankie: Yes. Judah: That is gonna pull everybody into court. I mean, motions to dismiss, if they're contested, you go to court, you have a contested hearing. Frankie: Mm-hmm. criminal cases you'll have a lot of what's called a motion to suppress, which means that there is evidence that essentially cops did something wrong procedurally. And because of that ⁓ the rights were violated, and ⁓ in to a search, and ⁓ because of ⁓ anything past point of the illegality cannot come in ⁓ Judah: In regards to a search. Frankie: at trial and sometimes that means that the drugs in a drug possession case is suppressed and then there's no case anymore because there's no drugs anymore. ⁓ Judah: Th there's no case. Yeah, so done that I've had urine samples ⁓ suppressed in DUI's cases and that the only evidence that they had. They didn't take a breathalzer, they didn't take a blood test ⁓ that somebody was intoxicated and you no more DUI ⁓ but also ⁓ for our non legal listeners, mom, ⁓ ⁓ suppressing everything from the point the search started ⁓ Going on. That doctrine is called the fruit of the poisonous tree, which is so elegant and poetic and lovely. Frankie: Yeah. And so essentially, for example, ⁓ you ⁓ in situation where you're not allowed to leave, a reasonable person would think they're not allowed to leave, and the officer's asking questions, ⁓ that a very simplified analysis of what would be called custodial interrogation, where your Miranda warnings, your right to remain silent, right to have an attorney, blah blah blah. would be required to be read to you. If the officer does not, and then ⁓ of something ⁓ they're then like, ⁓ wait, let me memorize you and then I'll ask you that same question again so that I can have that incriminating statement, ⁓ entire interview is out the window. ⁓ it is very fact-dependent, but that's ⁓ Judah: Yeah, well And that's very fact dependent. That's very, very fact dependent. It's it's much easier for kids than it is for adults, Bt dubs. we've gone through like, hey, ⁓ we've got you could generate, you know, that you can throw in and it's gonna Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: gum up the court times either by the court has to review it all or by dragging everybody into a court. We as attorneys have an ethical obligation as lawyers not to file frivolous motions or requests for that exact reason to not gum up the court. So we have that ethical obligation. Regular people who do not have lawyers do not have that same obligation. Frankie: Right. And a motion is literally just a request for the court. That's what it's called is a motion. and yeah. Judah: Yeah. I'm I'm talking about other kinds of requests. Frankie: Yeah, well right. but a motion is you're requesting the court to do something. Judah: Yeah. You can even just request the court to have a hearing. Frankie: Yeah. these ⁓ filings ⁓ have comply with the Sovereign Citizen Truth Language, which is this quantum language, including such rules as all sentences must start with the preposition for and have no less than thirteen words, ⁓ and use more ⁓ than ⁓ verbs with complex punctuation rules. This is what's called quantum grammar. ⁓ It is ⁓ wild to try read these I will link something in the show notes to give you an idea of what ⁓ I need to find it. Hold on. Judah: Just read me a sentence, Frank. Just read me one of them weird ass sentences. Prepare your brain for whatever goo's about to come out. Frankie: Right Judah: And then I have a I have a response. Frankie: Okay. For the for the Yeah, So for the correct hyphen parse hyphen syntax hyphen grammar hyphen hyphen performance hyphen global hyphen treaty hyphen rules ⁓ of the correct hyphen sentence hyphen structure hyphen communication hyphen parse syntax hyphen grammar ⁓ are with the ⁓ author's hyphen knowledge hyphen claim of the hyphen time hyphen by the global hyphen styles hyphen manual hyphen treaty Judah: What? Frankie: This it this is this is a descriptor I'll put it in the show notes. This is a descriptor of how the language works in the language. It doesn't make any sense. Judah: I'm gonna pause here for to lighten the mood for a second. ⁓ gonna direct ⁓ my listeners to the New Age ⁓ Bullshit So this is a website will give you New Agey language that doesn't mean anything. And I'm gonna argue it's the same thing, different intent. But but this is for fun. So I'm gonna click reionize electrons. ⁓ Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: to see, I'll just read you a little bit of our New Age Bullshit Generator. The truth is constant. ⁓ exist as electrical impulses. Science tells us ⁓ essence of nature is conscious living. ⁓ life is nothing short of a condensing network of ever-present rebirth. I'll stop there. It's got a whole thing. so if you would like to generate your own ⁓ level bullshit, ⁓ as I direct you to the New Age Bullshit Generator, ⁓ something Frankie: We'll put that in the show notes too. Judah: that sounds profound. None of the words mean anything when you put ⁓ together. Frankie: Yep. that's essentially what it winds up sounding like. This language, like many things in the sovereign citizen movement, started off as the idea of one specific theorist named David Wynne Miller in the 1990s, and it essentially caught on. A lot of these theories and things that have become the core of this movement was essentially somebody spitballing at some point, and people were like, that's a really cool idea, and ran with it. And that's why there's never really been like a leader. There have been like gurus who are really like well versed in everything, but there's never been any specific like leadership because it's largely people making shit up and seeing what will happen. Judah: Much like my expertise in cryptozoology. Frankie: Mm-hmm. So this quantum language is based in quantum mechanics. i.e. it's based this is the theory. It's based it's the ⁓ the theory. ⁓ says it's ⁓ Judah: No it's not. No it's not. Frank. Frank. Frank, how on earth is it based in quantum mechanics? Frankie: I don't know. That's what all the information says that they believe. Okay? So they believe it's based in quantum mechanics, meaning that it's based on facts and cannot be misinterpreted as opposed to natural language, which can. So all sentences, ⁓ sentences must make sense regardless of which direction they're read. And it's based in the belief that language is a form of energy and that by understanding the quantum energy behind it. people can better communicate with one another and can create unambiguous contracts. Okay? So the whole issue that they're trying to get around it ⁓ my God. Are you a T-Rex? What is this? Judah: It's my pterodactyl face. I mean I'm doing this trying to make you laugh in the middle of you spewing out this bullshit. I want the like the Frankie: Except that my Word document is in front of my while I'm recording. ⁓ Judah: Make this make this the clip that's the clip that people look at for the picture for this show today. Frankie: Okay. Judah: That's how I feel about that absolute bogus language is based in quantum mechanics. ⁓ Eat bag of dirt. What the absolute hell? Frankie: So so the the So So so they're they take issue with all of these laws and contracts, which are like ambiguous because of whatever flowery language that people use to speak, and that creates ⁓ inconsistencies and misunderstandings and you don't have the meetings of the minds for the contracts, but they claim that this quantum language, because it is based ⁓ in fact, it will not. And the reason that they say this is that because using quantum grammar Only nouns have legal meaning, and those meanings are static and absolute. Using a colon indicates a fact. Words are assigned numerical values, and by looking at the syntax you can determine the truth of the statement, so they say. Judah: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Hang on, Libby has something to say about this. Say it again, Libby. ⁓ she s she quit saying it. She's gonna go outside and take a dump, cause that filled her up with so much bullshit. So I'm gonna let my old ass dog outside to poop out what she just heard. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Okay. Judah: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Frank. That Full ass hattery, just put a grain of sand in the delicate gears of my mind. Frankie: But wait, there's more. Words are assigned numerical values, and by looking Yep, and by looking at the syntax, you can determine the truth of the statement. Verbs are not used unless in the gerund form, which is the nouned form of the verb. adverbs, and pronouns are not ⁓ used. So literally Judah: Like in Scrabble. Frankie: every word is either a noun or the noun form of a verb. Judah: I'm gonna go outside and poop now. It's gonna be me. Frankie: Okay. Okay. All right. Judah: Sorry, Megan's not home today, so I'm on full dog duty. Leave the poopin' thing in the show. Cause that makes no goddamn sense. Cause if you read one of those sentences, nobody would be able to tell what it said. Frankie: No worries. Okay. Yep. see. sentences with prepositions ⁓ because a preposition is to certify a noun. Judah: No, it's not. Frankie: A word that starts with a vowel followed by two consonants means no contract and will void any document. The added punctu Judah: What? Frankie: Apparently if you use a word in the contract that is a three letter word with a vowel and two nouns, like the word all, it completely voids the entire contract. The added punctuation are hieroglyphs that give language and names life. So names are written and said as first hyphen middle colon last. Yes, you read the punctuation. The colon makes the person a fact, 'cause remember, colons are used to certify nouns. Judah: So Woof. It makes no goddamn sense. So we could say, you know, like Mary Jones, hereinafter referred to as petitioner. And if you call her petitioner, it's not valid because you're not using Frankie: It makes no goddamn sense. Mm-hmm. You're not using their flesh and blood name, yes. So they will also sometimes use double speak, including homonyms. So they may link the idea of a birth certificate with the maritime law meaning by spelling it B-E-R-T-H instead of B-I-R-T-H. Judah: The name. ⁓ you gotta be shitting me. Frankie: Or ⁓ currency, like money, by spelling it current sea S E A. So nothing will make sense because they're using improper spellings on top of this quantum mechanics based grammar to make all their points. Judah: I feel like I just got hit by a clown car and then backed up and went forward and back up and forward a couple of times. Frankie: And each time it's going Yeah, pretty much. Judah: I okay. This is just a clown car full of nouns. Please continue. Frankie: So these filings are always pseudo legal. to a lay person they may look official, but to someone trained in the law it looks like gobbledygook. ⁓ we can see. Judah: I I understand how legalese is what we call it, looks artificial and the modern lawyer is discouraged from using it whenever possible. but there are terms of art, I'm gonna just say sua sponte that are Latin, that are very old, that you could also write out in a longer ⁓ Frankie: Mm-hmm. The English form of it. Judah: Yeah, the English form of it. Or a term like de novo, de novo review, where that is a specific type of court review. But if you are a lawyer and you are throwing out as much legalese as you can to make yourself sound fancy, you're also the kind of lawyer who calls yourself doctor. You are an asshole. Frankie: And you also probably aren't as good at it as you think you are. If you need to use big words to prove yourself, then you've got something to prove. Judah: If you can't argue without Latin So if I say sua sponte, I could say on the court's own motion. Frankie: Yep. Yep. De novo means of new. Of new. Yeah, completely new review of it. Judah: All new. Yeah. But d that's the court y that's a s a name for a specific type of review. Frankie: Right. You have like, you know, things that that are used pretty consistently, like a motion in limine In limine means at the door. just means a motion that you can file like as you're walking into trial. It doesn't have to have any sort of leeway to it. Judah: And if you do that, your judge will yell at you. Frankie: Yeah, I always file motions in limine ahead of time, even though they're in limine. Judah: And then we have an omnibus motion hearing where you get it all settled. Frankie: Which is yeah, which is essentially ⁓ one hearing and you can tackle any number of issues in it. Not ⁓ not be confused with an ombuds person, which means kinda like a social worker liaison y person that you can file complaints with. Judah: Yeah. So if if you are if you're having Got Okay. Alright, I think it's my vision is coming back into focus. Frankie: Mm-hmm. You ready for me to continue? Judah: Sure, sure. Hit me with your best shot. Frankie: of all of these beliefs that talked about in this quantum language, it may not be a surprise that even the smallest traffic infraction can lead to mountains of pseudo-legal filings. ⁓ One example ⁓ was case of Lee Ray, who was the common law wife ⁓ of guru and figurehead Jerry Kane. She was brought before court over not paying a dog licensing fee. For those who do not have animals, you may not know that you are actually supposed to license your dog with the county in which you live. Judah: And it's not all pets it's just dogs. Also, we have not to brag, all three of our dogs are licensed and they're also vaccinated. Frankie: It's just dogs. Yeah, in order to get your dog licensed, your dog has to be at least rabies vaccinated. I don't know about other at least ⁓ but necessarily like Parvo lepto all that stuff, but absolutely rabies vaccinated. Judah: Rabies vaccinated. Yeah, so y you can let your dog die of parvo which is a miserable death, and still get your license. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. So she did not pay this dog licensing fee. She filed ten of these pseudo-legal sovereign citizen documents over a two-month period, which annoyed the prosecutor enough that the prosecutor just gave up and dropped the case. So these can actually look like victories because the person prosecuting or on the other side of the case is just like, fuck this, I'm done, and walks away. Judah: Well, 'cause our dog license fee per dog was about thirty or thirty five ⁓ thirty or thirty five dollars. a lot of the like class violations, like the fine is minimal. ⁓ And you Frankie: It's like thirty bucks, yeah. It's like yeah, two hundred, three hundred bucks, something like that. Judah: Sometimes less. Some of the fines in the city of Corvallis they can go from twenty five dollars. ⁓ And you have an actual ⁓ prosecutor contracted prosecutor who's like, just spent four hundred dollars of the city's time and all they possibly recoup is twenty five dollars. I'm over it. ⁓ So ⁓ I guess that be victory if you file enough crappy paperwork, or you could just get somebody Frankie: Mm-hmm. it's an absolute waste of money. Judah: just like hardcore that's like, I don't give a crap. I am gonna go after you and I'm gonna keep finding you. Frankie: Yep. some other forms of this paper terrorism ⁓ is as a retaliatory tactic, a sovereign citizen will file a bogus property lien against government targets, which may go unannounced until they try to sell their home. ⁓ So liens could be for millions or more. and even if sovereign citizen is punished criminally for putting the bogus lien in place, the homeowner still needs to deal with getting it taken off. Judah: And that's a huge pain in the butt. Frankie: It's a huge pain in the ass. So what happens is like if there's a prosecutor, who filed a traffic ticket or something, they'll find out where they live and they'll just file this lien against the house ⁓ as a retaliation for the criminal charges. sometimes they'll file false tax documents to ruin an enemy's credit by getting them audited by the IRS. ⁓ Another form of retaliation is filing bonus big money lawsuits against someone who they believe has wronged them, such as a cop who pulled them over for having fictitious plates. And they'll just sue them for millions of dollars, and then the cop has to get representation and all this stuff and waste all this money. And there's no legal claim there. It's just retaliation. And the whole point of the retaliation is making the cop spend all this money to defend this frivolous case. Judah: I actually knew about a lot of this. I had heard about this happening. I know an attorney who the victim of this attorney wound up having to hire 'cause you know, only fool represents themselves. or the man who represents himself has a fool for a lawyer ⁓ and had to spend a couple thousand dollars ⁓ you know, wanting to and then it the case just got shut down. And then if you're going backwards at them and you're trying to like do a counterclaim or suing them for malicious prosecution, they're judgment proof, which means they don't have any money. They don't they don't have any assets you can grab. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Right. and Judah alluded to this earlier, but ⁓ while ⁓ attorneys are bound to not file anything frivolous ⁓ and lay people are not, there is a of civil procedure that actually allows for sanctions, money sanctions, ⁓ not against the client but the attorney, the filer, for filing frivolous ⁓ suits. ⁓ or motions or anything and the the fines essentially would be the attorneys' fees of the other person having to defend those suits. Or more. it could frankly just be a punitive fine. Judah: but if it's above and beyond what it costs you, then it goes into the victims assistance fund. Anyway. Frankie: Yep. they ⁓ have filed fraudulent tax returns to get a large refund to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars from the IRS. And then that gets spent on luxury vehicles and real property by the time they are caught. ⁓ You know, that whole trust account that they have. They're just trying to tap into that. They will also mail out bogus criminal writs of execution to government officials, attempting to hold them accountable, including offering bounties for anybody who can bring them to the sovereign citizen tribunal. Newer versions of this would be to engage in fictitious arbitration association to demand payment of high sums of money of government officials. ⁓ These paper terrorist documents have been formulated and developed and honed over the years to be the most effective that they can be. And then the gurus will then go sell these documents on social media or what have you, claiming you'll absolutely win, and they make thousands and thousands of dollars from their followers, and it's all just bullshit. They've also there's more. More paper terrorism. That like I said, this is this is the main thing that they engage in in is this paper terrorism. ⁓ they've deeded vacant or empty homes to themselves, or just lived there and rented it out to other people. this ⁓ happened during the mortgage crisis in the late aughts. one group went so far as to seize a mansion, change the locks, put a chain across the front gate, to ⁓ Judah: Of co of course there is. Frankie: Show that it was theirs, and sometimes they just show up at the door of an occupied home and claim to be the legal owners. ⁓ They'll have they will work to convince homeowners in foreclosure to deed property to the sovereign citizen using a quit claim deed, ⁓ which is the deed gives the least recourse against the prior owners. Judah: Good lord. Frankie: convince the homeowners by falsely claiming that they can stop the foreclosure and give the property back for a fee. So essentially they say, Hey, quick, deed us your house, we'll get you out from under the foreclosure, and then we can sell the house back to you. And then either either they never do, or they make a fuck ton of money off of nothing, and the house still has the foreclosure on it. So they never actually get the person out of the foreclosure. So either way, this homeowner winds up losing their house, but when the sovereign citizen gets involved, they lose their house. Judah: Never do. Frankie: And thousands of dollars. Other types of paper terrorism involve they file a fraudulent tax return to extinguish the mortgage in this foreclosure situation ⁓ and then take twenty thirty five percent off the top for themselves. ⁓ And HUD has actually tens of millions of dollars and prosecuted individuals for this particular scheme. Judah: I mean, good God. Frankie: Yeah, it it's it's creating victims left, right and center. Judah: this isn't ⁓ what was thinking of or what I have seen, which is somebody in their own cases ⁓ filing that don't exist and ⁓ Frankie: Right, and they do that too, but they also attempt to amass wealth by doing these things as well. there was a group called the Colorado Eight that were charged with a racketeering scheme they ran common law courts, which is these ⁓ courts they set up themselves, they're their own judges, things like that. And they pre Yep, and they pressed charges against judges, prosecutors, sheriffs, etcetera. These faux trials took place in Burns, Oregon, ⁓ again. were related to the Malheur refuge takeover. Judah: I'm a judge. Frankie: From Colorado, they came all the way out here to hold their own tribunal. Judah: Yeah. Frankie: another example ⁓ these amassing of paper filings, there's a sovereign citizen named Shauna Cox who was arrested in Kane County, Utah. ⁓ She attempted claim the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Amendments, ⁓ and that case was being heard in the common law courts. ⁓ And a called statewide common law grand jury ⁓ filed twenty-four objections to the unlawful status hearing. And you know She tried. Like the Fifth Amendment is all of your Miranda your right to remain silent, your right to have an attorney, all that stuff. Your s right. your Sixth Amendment rights are your right to a criminal speedy public jury trial, and of the that kind of grand jury preliminary hearing. That that stuff falls under Sixth Amendment. The Seventh Amendment is your civil right to a jury trial. Judah: That's my favorite. That's my favorite one. Well, number one and number five. Frankie: Doesn't quite fit in this situation, which again shows like they've kinda sorta read the Constitution, but not quite. Judah: Well, she went in there 'cause they're filing charges against her corporation self, not her personal self. That's civil. That's civil. Okay. I feel drained of my life force just listening to this. Like like when you're playing a video game and you're just see wood and I even had a super amount of caffeine. So much caffeine. Frankie: That yeah, so there's that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So like like there's there's always they're always amending these documents, they're always trying to make them better and make them more effective. And people will pay money for these documents and then they bring them back to the gurus when they lose and they say it didn't work. And the guru's response is essentially, well, you didn't do it right. Try this one. Judah: D you did you did it wrong. You ⁓ you didn't have enough colons in there. Good lord. Well thank you for that. just ⁓ didn't think I was gonna hear something more ⁓ Frankie: Yeah. Judah: Bananas. Then the Bigfoot lava tubes. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: But you did it. 'Cause I didn't do the deep dive into the language and stuff. Like when I was looking stuff up, I like, ⁓ looking up cases and what people are ⁓ and like the cases that got publicity and you did I respect ⁓ deeply full nerd that you went to. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. I do have another page and a half or two of notes that we can probably work on diving into next week unless you wanna power through Judah: Yeah, let's do a real No. Let's let's do a real lighthearted send off and we can pick how we're gonna structure it for week. you you're taking the heavy hitters ⁓ three weeks in row. Frankie: Mm. Mm-hmm. Judah: what would you like me to look at for next week? I can look at everybody who's claimed to be Canadian royalty. Frankie: Well, there is there is one specific Canadian royal that I came across and her name is escaping me at the moment, but I can get that name to you. she is like the sovereign citizen queen of Canada. and you start with that next week. Yep. Judah: I think I've probably found it. It's okay. Woof is what I have to say for that. Woof. Woof. Frankie: Ha ha ha ha. keep those emails coming of your favorite conspiracy theories. We can always start off with that if we get some more. ⁓ Judah: Or if you have ever seen a Bigfoot. Sasquatch, Yeti. hairy hominid that we haven't discussed. Mythical creature. ⁓ wanna hear about it. I'm not gonna judge you. I'm desperate to see one. Frankie: Yep. Any sort of that, email it to us ⁓ at dumb defenses podcast at gmail dot like review, share the podcast so we can continue to grow, and we will see you next week. Judah: See you next week.