Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 7 - Which Angels go to Hell?

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Ep. 7 - Which Angels go to Hell? · Martyr's Row

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  Mathias, of whom less is known than of most of
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  the other disciples, was elected to fill the
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  vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem
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  and then beheaded. So campfires, I love them
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  It's my favorite thing. I love the like campfires
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  Just sitting and just you don't know when the
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  wind is gonna change direction and then true
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  You just can't see for a little bit So do you
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  believe that the smoke that it goes toward the
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  most attractive person or the least attractive?
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  Haven't ever thought about it because that's
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  been like a I've heard both sides people are
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  like, oh it follows beauty Yeah, I mean other
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  one it follows all goes and it's like But I've
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  never really been at a campfire where people
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  are playing Duck Duck Go. Duck Duck Goose? Goose,
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  yeah. Duck Duck Go is something... Isn't that
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  like a browser? That's a web browser. Duck Duck
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  Goose. Yeah, because like you don't really move.
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  What's your favorite type of wood? Huh? What's
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  your favorite type of wood for a fire? The type
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  that the wood chuck chucks? I can't... I thought
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  that was a... You do all these like... I always
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  think you're gonna do a joke setup and then you
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  don't do a joke setup. It's actually a serious
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  question No, so the uh, so the wood chuck wood
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  chuck wood no, I um, I don't know I don't I mean
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  I grew up in Florida. Oh, so you have like palm
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  fronds. Well, sometimes like we honestly those
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  go up we They do but the problem is is they like
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  they fly up So when they fly up, then it's like,
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  it could go anywhere and light everything on
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  fire. It does, yeah. I did that at my old house.
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  Oh, really? With my roommates, and the neighbors
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  freaked out. Yeah, that's not, especially like
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  a tight space. Yeah, and I lit like four of them
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  on fire at once. Oh, yeah. No, I think, so growing
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  up in Florida, I think I probably had more bonfires
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  than actual like camp, like around campfire.
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  Yeah. And then there's so many oaks. in Florida,
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  especially central Florida. So I feel like oak
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  is probably the wood I've burned the most. It's
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  a good smelling wood. What wood have you burned
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  the most? Yeah, a lot of oak. We did a lot of
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  weeping willows, too. Okay. Those things were
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  like weeds. Yeah, they're inside. Growing up,
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  yeah. Right. We had one that just won't die.
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  Okay. Growing up, we tried to kill it like four
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  times. It wouldn't go. It's like this poor thing.
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  And then maple wood that that's actually a nice
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  smell maple smells great. Yeah, that's a good
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  smell You know, you know, this is like really
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  sweet It's not a wood that you would put on a
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  campfire but cedar. Oh Yeah, so like I was a
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  great smell like I did I did a lot of woodworking
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  for a couple years after college and We would
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  rip the wood which is like what you that's that's
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  what you call when you get like a larger piece
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  of wood width wise So wide. I feel like I'm blurring
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  my words together. So width -wise, you would
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  want it a certain width. And so you'd get a larger
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  board so that it costs less. And then you would
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  just run it through a table saw. That's fair.
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  Well, because you've got to plane it down so
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  you're losing some of the dimensions too, right?
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  Yeah, but we would uh, well not to get too much
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  in the weeds on this. This is a woodworking podcast
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  now. Be careful, it could be. On Mars we're gonna
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  build the crosses. Yeah, we have to build a cross
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  for every episode. Put the episode number on
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  it. Is that for like our Easter special? We have
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  a field in the back. We just build a cross while
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  we talk about it. No, it'd be Halloween. Oh,
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  yeah. Weird direction, huh? That could be interesting.
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  Now we have eggs for Easter. It's gonna take
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  someone's house. Yeah. That's also Halloween.
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  Oh, yeah, you're right. Suburbian traditions.
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  Suburbian? Suburban. Suburban? Suburbian. Yeah,
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  so I would like, we would get a whole load of
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  wood in, and I would spend like a day or two
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  getting it all prepped. Wow, so it'd be like
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  pine and I would just be smelling pine all day
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  and then Cedar and then I like red oak is actually
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  really sour So like when you cut that it's like
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  a really sour smell. It's not great. That's yeah,
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  but like pine spruce Cedar it's all really sweet.
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  Yeah, maples really nice. Is that classic smell?
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  Mm -hmm. Yeah, I forget what the there was another
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  one that like oh Cyprus does not smell good at
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  all. Really? Yeah But cypress is also really
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  wet like cypress trees live in water. Oh, yes
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  Yeah, so they have to well they have to like
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  dry out, but they're still like okay. They're
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  still pretty yeah, so pretty wet Yeah, so that's
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  my favorite type of wood around the campfire
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  Yeah, so casting lots Yeah, that's a weird weird
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  thing. You know it's kind of a weird idea because
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  I think When we hear it we just think gambling
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  And you're like, oh, well, we shouldn't do that.
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  That's not good. I'm not sure, though. I think
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  the modern person is not thinking gambling. Probably
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  not. They're probably thinking what is that?
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  What was that song? Like a parking lot? Parking
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  lot. What is that song? Put up a parking lot.
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  I don't think I know that song. I can't remember
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  the melody to it. Who's it by? I'm screaming
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  at myself later. I'm going to listen to this
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  later and scream at myself. We just slowly play
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  like 10 seconds. No, it's called Put Up a Parking
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  Lot. But it's like it's one of those songs that
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  like you would know it. Anybody would know it
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  because they've if they've been to Publix. It's
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  just playing. Yeah. It's like one of those like
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  like late 90s, early 2000s. the music video was
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  probably washed out and put up a parking lot.
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  It's a great song. I'll look that up. Or just
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  go to Publix. But that's the only time I use
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  the word lot. Okay, that's fair. You see what
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  I mean? Like a tree lot or a parking lot. It's
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  like a space with stuff in it. No, that's fair.
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  We don't think about making decisions with a
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  parking lot. No. I mean, I guess you have to
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  figure out where you're gonna park. Or what tree
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  you're gonna buy. That's, oh yeah, that's true.
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  So maybe there's some gambling there. There's
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  a little gamble. It's gonna be Cypress, I know
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  it. Oh no, it's gonna smell bad. A little sour.
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  They are kinda soggy, yeah. I mean, it makes
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  sense that they would be. But you take a tree
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  home and you put it in water. So you would think
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  a Cypress tree would be perfect. It's like made
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  for that. You can't drown it. No, you can't.
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  When you think of casting a lot, it's kind of
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  like putting your destiny or your future up to
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  fate. Because it's like, oh, I'm not making the
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  decision. I'm going to let the fate make it for
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  me if you want to be mythological about it. Sure.
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  If you want to be Christian about it, I'm letting
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  God. decide, but it's a weird idea that seems
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  very pagan or mythological. And it doesn't seem
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  like something a Christian should do, yet we
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  see it multiple times throughout scripture. Yeah,
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  we do. Not often. No. But enough for some big
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  decisions. But I also feel like fate wasn't necessarily
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  a thing in the ancient world. No, I think that
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  was really a Greek and Roman thing that came
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  out of it, isn't it? I feel like it might have
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  been even later than that, but that would really
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  that would make sense. Yeah, I just feel like
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  like leaving it Leaving your fate up to the gods
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  would be more of a way to say it. Yeah. Yeah
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  Versus like leaving it up to fate which is this
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  weird like breakdown because if you go I mean
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  in Greek there were the fates Who are they they
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  were sisters? Yeah, I think they were. I think
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  they were. The Fate Sisters? But they were like
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  the ones that decided people's destinies. Sirens?
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  Yeah. Sirens. But that's what I mean, though.
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  That's actually an interesting breakdown of that,
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  because I feel like that was like a rom -com
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  thing. It's like, leave it up to fate. You know
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  what I mean? And if you're leaving it up to fate,
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  then you're one step removed from... who decides
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  the fate. Because you're taking your own responsibility
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  out of it. I'm not responsible for the decision.
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  But if you're leaving it up to fate, like modern
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  phrase, fate is just like the ether. But the
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  ether is undefined. But in the ancient world
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  it wasn't. No, it was very defined. Right. So
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  that's what I mean is like back then, if you
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  were casting lots, you're not leaving it up to
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  fate, the ether. You're leaving your fate up
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  to the gods. And they're going to be the ones
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  to make the decision for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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  So like the ether was defined. Yeah, that's true.
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  So like that is a weird distinction of like ancient
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  worldview. But I feel like that's a good that's
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  a good example of how we've de -spiritualized
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  the world. Where for us it's like, oh, we can
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  say like leave it to fate. It's like the universe.
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  Yeah. Which is just like this thing. Right. But
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  it's like, no, it's like we've just we're trying
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  to say something spiritual. but we've removed
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  our ability to understand the spiritual. Yeah,
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  it's naturalized. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's
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  also kind of synonymous with goodwill. Yeah.
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  So you're kind of assuming that it's going to
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  be OK. Yeah. The problem is it probably won't.
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  Which honestly, it's weird when you look at the
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  Greek or Roman mythological side, their gods
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  kind of sucked. They were not good people. And
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  so it's funny the idea of leaving it up to them.
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  It's like, I wouldn't want to leave anything
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  up to them. Not even like a grocery list. I actually
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  have way too much to say about that. I bet you
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  do. That's actually like a really good, because
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  like, yeah, so a good way to think about that,
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  like the Greek gods, is that, yeah, they were
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  not necessarily good or bad. Right. but they
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  were protective of whoever was underneath them.
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  So like if you worshipped Zeus, and you were
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  in Zeus's temple, then you're protected by Zeus.
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  But you could potentially... If you offend him
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  in some way. Or you use Zeus, or he uses you
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  to enact evil on somebody else. So it's like
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  there also is that element to it. Which is a
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  whole different. That kind of brings into play
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  what the ancient gods are like. That's not the
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  episode. Whole different topic. But lots, let's
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  wrap it up with lots. Lots are weird. They are
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  weird. So, how do you say his name again? Mathias?
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  Mathias. I had to look it up. Yeah, we looked
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  it up for you, so you didn't have to. That's
• 11:53
  the kind of service you get here at Marner's
• 11:54
  Row. Nothing but top tier. Mathias. So Mathias
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  was... He was Jesus' replacement. Yeah. Yeah,
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  because they lost one of the apostles. Yeah,
• 12:07
  they lost one. We need another one. But Jesus
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  told them to do that. Yes. So that's it. They
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  had the council to decide like all right who's
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  gonna be it Yeah, and it came down to a hand.
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  I think there's like three people isn't it? How
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  do you think that went it'd be kind of weird?
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  Yeah, you know you think they were standing there
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  watching Like the main four guys just like throw
• 12:29
  stuff on the ground or did they give them sticks?
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  You can just hear them talking about it. Yeah,
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  or did they do what we just did in the intro?
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  and they had like 12 sticks. I actually meant
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  to look that up and I forgot to. It doesn't matter.
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  Because I feel like it would be sticks or like
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  something. Yeah, but casting lots is kind of
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  like... Unless they are like throwing a die or
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  a couple dice. Yeah. maybe all three of them
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  and who's ever lands on a certain thing. I think
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  that's what it was. Yeah. Like I think it was
• 12:58
  more like that. It's like it's a tie guys. We
• 13:00
  got to go again. Yeah. Or you like you have like
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  three or four dice or something. I mean die like
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  you have. Yeah. You know what I mean. And it's
• 13:09
  like everybody represents something. That would
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  make sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's probably more like
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  that. You know in this segment we're just pontificating.
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  Yeah. So so yeah. And we want to reiterate. here
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  at Martyrs Row that we are not, let's say we
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  are not trying to claim that everything that
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  we say is correct. The idea here at Martyrs Row
• 13:34
  is that we talk about the things that you wish
• 13:37
  more people would talk about and the things that
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  we want to talk about that we find interesting
• 13:43
  as well as playing around with stuff. because
• 13:48
  it's fun to play around with yeah it's like uh
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  adults at play that's exactly paul and i are
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  just playing together actually i am just having
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  fun here most of the time and i know you are
• 13:58
  yeah it's a little bit like a campfire yeah we're
• 14:03
  just sitting around a campfire with our friends
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  talking about whatever we want to talk about
• 14:09
  campfire wood yeah and hopefully some of the
• 14:12
  stuff we say is true and helpful Causes you to
• 14:15
  think. Yeah, that's that's the important thing.
• 14:17
  So the real question is is what kind of wood
• 14:19
  are you burning? While you listen to this episode
• 14:23
  of martyrs row three two one It was a nice snap
• 14:30
  I'm ready I think I'm ready and here we are I'm
• 14:35
  trying to figure out I Don't know. I don't know
• 14:38
  if we're trying to figure out our or this is
• 14:40
  just our theme song segment. Yeah This is our
• 14:44
  musical segment. We can't pick one, so let's
• 14:48
  just do them all. Yeah, I think it's more like
• 14:50
  we don't want to. I kind of feel that a little
• 14:53
  bit. Like it will be fun in like a year to put
• 14:57
  the final final take of each of these songs.
• 15:01
  Oh, wow. Together in like a super cut. There's
• 15:04
  a way to edit them all together. We'll have to
• 15:06
  like pitch shift them. So there's like not weird
• 15:08
  key changes. It doesn't matter. It's kind of
• 15:12
  fun that way. But yeah, so this is our Martyrs
• 15:14
  Row theme song segment. Yeah. This is where sometimes
• 15:19
  we make something up and it doesn't go well.
• 15:24
  And then sometimes we, like I think I prepared
• 15:29
  almost a full song one time. One time, yeah.
• 15:32
  It was a lot. It was. I honestly don't even remember
• 15:36
  it. All right, I can listen to I know we'll figure
• 15:40
  it out. I've got that problem. I forget almost
• 15:43
  immediately Yeah, so I have to record it. Yeah
• 15:46
  Yeah, I also am like constantly like walking
• 15:49
  around my house and just making songs up. Oh,
• 15:52
  yeah Who is that? Who's that person? There's
• 15:54
  a there's a guy that Was it just elf? I'm singing.
• 16:00
  Oh, yeah But I felt like there was somebody else
• 16:04
  in like a sitcom or something Because I feel
• 16:06
  like I just do that all the time. That's just
• 16:08
  my daily. Yeah. So we're bringing it here. I
• 16:11
  don't even realize it sometimes. I know. That's
• 16:13
  the best part. Yeah. That's when you know it's
• 16:15
  part of me. I've been singing for like 10 minutes.
• 16:19
  Yeah. Like just about my socks and shoes. Yeah.
• 16:22
  We all have names now. Yeah. They're in a song
• 16:26
  somewhere out there in the universe. It's out
• 16:28
  there. Yeah. So I think tonight or whenever whatever
• 16:35
  time of day it is. You guys don't know. Insert
• 16:39
  your time here. It's definitely not tonight.
• 16:41
  I mean at night. If they were listening to it
• 16:45
  currently. Yeah. It's whatever time it is for
• 16:49
  you. Yeah, that's when. That's when it is. You
• 16:54
  can only listen to this at four in the morning.
• 16:58
  I'd prefer that. What if we only, let's just
• 17:00
  say we record at four in the morning. By the
• 17:03
  way we talk, people would believe it. Yeah, they
• 17:05
  might. Yeah, good point. Alright, so you have
• 17:11
  a something. I have a little something. Yeah,
• 17:13
  I had like a random idea pop in a few days ago
• 17:17
  and I was like, huh, that could be cool. And
• 17:20
  then I forgot about it. And then you sent me
• 17:23
  a voice memo entitled... Panda Express. Oh, did
• 17:26
  that inspire you? Yeah, that's why I was just
• 17:28
  like I was like, oh wait I was like I forgot
• 17:30
  I had those like a line that I thought was interesting
• 17:33
  Yeah, and then I was like, oh I can work with
• 17:35
  that. I like that That's why I sent it. It's
• 17:38
  so good. I was picking up Panda Express and I
• 17:41
  just like stream of consciousness And that was
• 17:44
  like a couple hours ago, but it's funny. I thought
• 17:47
  for some reason that it would be about Panda
• 17:50
  Express. I understand, because the voice memo
• 17:53
  was titled Panda Express. I might have been hoping.
• 17:54
  The funny thing is normally I'll re -title those,
• 17:57
  but because it just automatically titled it Panda
• 18:00
  Express, I was like, this is more fun. Yeah,
• 18:03
  it was so good. Yeah, but all right. But yeah,
• 18:08
  so we're going to see how this goes. Yeah, and
• 18:09
  if you've never seen or listened to Martyrs Row,
• 18:13
  This is not where we present a perfect song.
• 18:15
  No, it's not. This is where we write and mess
• 18:18
  around with music. Yeah. So. And you get to enjoy
• 18:21
  that with us. Yeah, because Paul and I are both
• 18:23
  musicians. We like to play. Yeah. And if it's
• 18:26
  no good, we're not good musicians. We never claimed
• 18:30
  to be. Never claimed it. We just claim to have
• 18:33
  fun when we play music. So that's what we're
• 18:36
  going to do. That's where we're at. Go for it.
• 18:38
  What do you got? to live is Christ to die is
• 18:52
  a better thing than living apart from you I love
• 19:03
  this so let's walk down martyr's road martyr's
• 19:09
  road to be with you Did you just make that part
• 19:23
  up? Yeah. Nice. I like it. Just like guessing
• 19:27
  at all the chords. You sing really soft, so make
• 19:30
  sure you sing all the way in the mic. Hope you
• 19:31
  guys can hear that. I was watching you the whole
• 19:33
  time like, how's he gonna react? I love this.
• 19:36
  I just want to hear you play it. Yeah, do it
• 19:42
  again. I'll do it again. Do you want me to like
• 19:44
  try and figure out a way to jump in? I want you
• 19:45
  to like jump in. Okay. And I'm gonna look at
• 19:47
  the mic this time. I'm gonna look at you guys
• 19:48
  this time. Make an eye contact. Okay. Just leave
• 19:55
  a gap and I'll see. I'm not who I once was Hopefully
• 20:18
  I'm better than Yesterday Yesterday Martyrs Row
• 20:31
  Martyrs Row Martyrs Row Walking Down I just wrote
• 20:47
  like an emo lyric Yeah, I can't I just like being
• 20:55
  Because I feel like that's all emo music is is
• 20:59
  just like observational comedy. Yeah, but in
• 21:02
  like sad Expression yeah, it's like just how
• 21:08
  do I feel placed into like a? Small townscape.
• 21:12
  Yeah Or is that just country music? Country music
• 21:16
  is like emo with a twang. Okay Especially now
• 21:20
  like themed emo music like now Yeah, yeah, let's
• 21:25
  do it again. I just want to live in this for
• 21:27
  a minute I don't know why it's like this time
• 21:29
  of year, especially it puts me in like my Sufian
• 21:32
  Okay, okay, and it's like I think that's why
• 21:34
  the line is interesting to me. It's like it It's
• 21:37
  like it it diverts my attention. Okay So it's
• 21:40
  like, to live is Christ, that's good. To die
• 21:43
  is better, what? Than living apart from you.
• 21:46
  I love it though. And it's like, oh, it's kind
• 21:47
  of weird to me. Yeah. Yeah. Do you find, like,
• 21:52
  when you have carryover lines like that, and
• 21:54
  you're playing something really syncopated, that
• 21:56
  it's hard to find the, okay. Yeah, it's just
• 21:59
  like, where is it? Because I like how you had
• 22:01
  the line carryover, but it feels weird against
• 22:04
  the movement. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it fits.
• 22:07
  No, no. To be honest, I did it. different both
• 22:09
  times, because I forgot how he did the first.
• 22:11
  But I think I'm also like, this is an interesting
• 22:14
  thing about music too, is like, I think I'm feeling
• 22:17
  your energy on trying to find the placement.
• 22:19
  Yeah. But I think when they listen to it, it's
• 22:22
  not going to feel like that. It might feel like,
• 22:24
  oh, you meant to do that. It'll feel natural.
• 22:25
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. You guys let us
• 22:27
  know. They're just going to be like, you suck.
• 22:29
  They're like, not natural. Do something else.
• 22:35
  Stop doing a podcast. It's like. Guys you didn't
• 22:38
  have to be here All right, let's use that energy
• 22:44
  let's use that energy Let's start it again and
• 22:49
  then see if we can make ourselves cry by the
• 22:52
  end Okay But play the intro a little bit longer
• 22:57
  cuz I have an idea. Yeah. Yeah, I'll splash it
• 23:00
  on your face We'll do a little Catholic Holy
• 23:04
  water Holy tears. I have a funny story about
• 23:08
  that, by the way. All right. We'll tell it in
• 23:11
  the next. Play the intro. I have an idea. It's
• 23:29
  the opposite of me crying. That's the end of
• 23:30
  the intro. I kind of like it. OK, I'm ready.
• 23:39
  To live is Christ To die is a better thing than
• 23:46
  living apart from you I just want to be right
• 23:57
  next to you My whole life I'd give for this to
• 24:05
  just be with you For you I'll walk down martyr's
• 24:17
  road Walk down martyr's road Walk down martyr's
• 24:26
  road To die is not what I'm looking for Unless
• 24:51
  it's how I get to you I just want to be with
• 25:00
  you Martyrs Row Martyrs Row We'll go together
• 25:35
  We'll find our home The hope in Jesus Is all
• 25:44
  we need three two one and we're back so our best
• 26:16
  snap I know it's pretty good I actually feel
• 26:18
  like I shouldn't have said anything but I think
• 26:19
  you went left hand I went left hand on the last
• 26:22
  oh I switch hands I think You mean just the very
• 26:25
  first one I went boom and then I went boom on
• 26:28
  the last one That's what I'm saying. We both
• 26:29
  did left hand at the same time. Are you serious?
• 26:31
  Yeah, and then we went into like a really in
• 26:34
  your feels like gentle song We have to really
• 26:37
  boost the audio to hear it. Now that everyone's
• 26:40
  crying Hopefully we've set the mood right honestly
• 26:43
  if you're listening, I think any time of day
• 26:46
  It's good to have just like a calming. Yeah,
• 26:49
  chill voice in your years. Oh, thank you. I like
• 26:56
  that. So story, I teased it in the music thing.
• 27:02
  Holy Water. Yeah. So funny story. Okay. So I
• 27:06
  didn't grow up Catholic. My mom did. My mom grew
• 27:09
  up Catholic. And then she converted. I guess
• 27:14
  anytime you leave Catholicism, it's conversion.
• 27:16
  Yeah. Or... It's the end of the highway. Or what's
• 27:20
  the other? What's the like when they kick you
• 27:23
  out excommunication? Yeah. Yeah, that's when
• 27:25
  they force you to write down. Do they really
• 27:28
  I don't know Probably never been Catholic a fair
• 27:31
  note, but if I ever go to the Vatican I want
• 27:33
  to try and figure out how to become Catholic
• 27:35
  before I go to the Vatican. Yeah, I want to read
• 27:37
  those books I know I just want to see it be so
• 27:40
  cool. I mean props to Catholics for preserving
• 27:44
  the gospel for 1500 years true. I mean a little
• 27:48
  bit more than that But roughly they've been they've
• 27:51
  been pulling it together though for a while roughly
• 27:53
  that amount Yeah, I mean before like we could
• 27:56
  get it printed and passed around and stuff like
• 27:59
  that Yeah, like they really held on to it for
• 28:01
  us. I don't know I had this pop in my head. Have
• 28:04
  you ever seen the show? It's always sunny in
• 28:06
  Philadelphia a little bit. I know the premise
• 28:08
  though. Okay. Yeah, so there's a clip where one
• 28:11
  of the guys Charlie, okay, it's talking to Mac
• 28:15
  who's Catholic. Yeah, and He's like so you're
• 28:17
  telling me Just the delivery was funny So you're
• 28:26
  telling me that once a month the I Won't look
• 28:31
  at you Once a month Jesus Christ come back to
• 28:35
  life in the form of a bowl of crackers And then
• 28:39
  you proceed to eat the man And he dies again
• 28:42
  is that the setup that's what he says I was like
• 28:45
  that's like his like he's like poking at Catholicism.
• 28:50
  Transubstantiation. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can't
• 28:53
  believe I remember that word. That's a good word.
• 28:55
  But yeah, it's kind of an interesting idea. I
• 28:57
  don't know why I thought of that. I was like,
• 28:59
  I have to say this. Yeah, so the interesting
• 29:02
  thing about Catholicism is the way that they
• 29:05
  believe in communion is kind of based off of
• 29:08
  like the early church and how the early church,
• 29:11
  they were, some people called them cannibals.
• 29:14
  Right. Because of the way they talked about communion.
• 29:17
  They talked about taking the flesh and blood
• 29:20
  of Christ and having that in remembrance of him.
• 29:24
  And so people called him cannibals, which makes
• 29:26
  sense. It makes sense. But Catholics believe,
• 29:30
  even to this day, which is why the pope is the
• 29:32
  only one that touches the communion elements.
• 29:36
  So did you know that? I didn't know that, actually.
• 29:38
  Yeah, so at a proper Catholic church, you can't
• 29:40
  take communion unless you are a member, have
• 29:43
  gone through catechism and all that stuff. The
• 29:46
  cool thing is, so I went to the church in Bethlehem,
• 29:51
  actually, where they believe that Jesus was born.
• 29:55
  And it's down underneath that they have this
• 29:57
  little thing. And it's so weird, because that
• 30:01
  particular church was burned at one point. So
• 30:05
  there's nothing in the temple itself, or temple,
• 30:09
  the church. It's just marble and granite pillars
• 30:14
  and stuff. And it's like burn marks up to like
• 30:18
  six feet high. That's crazy. Yeah, it's really
• 30:20
  weird. And then like down where they have like
• 30:23
  this kind of shrine to where they think Jesus
• 30:25
  was like in the manger and stuff like that. Oh,
• 30:28
  wow. There are these like these like tapestries.
• 30:34
  I'm so glad I remember that word. There are these
• 30:38
  tapestries that also are burned. They're like
• 30:41
  charred. No way. But they were burned like several
• 30:44
  hundred years ago. And they're still intact to
• 30:46
  some degree? Yeah, they're just charred. Really?
• 30:48
  Yeah, it's really weird. Anyways, that particular
• 30:51
  church is weird because those, when they built
• 30:54
  them, they didn't have electricity. So like,
• 30:57
  they built them in such a way where you have
• 31:00
  this middle space. and that middle space is where
• 31:04
  the main pillars are that run down the church
• 31:06
  that really keep the church together. It holds
• 31:08
  the roof on. But they strategically placed them
• 31:12
  down the middle. And then there's an outside
• 31:14
  space outside the pillars on either side that
• 31:17
  are still inside the temple. The temple. I keep
• 31:20
  saying it feels like a temple. Because you're
• 31:22
  talking about something in Israel. Catholic Church.
• 31:24
  I know. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that middle space.
• 31:27
  And then the roof has two ceilings. So the middle
• 31:30
  of it. is a higher ceiling and then it's open
• 31:34
  where there's space in between the pillars. This
• 31:37
  is kind of hard to explain. But anyways, if you
• 31:39
  can just imagine the way the light comes in,
• 31:43
  it comes in only in the middle section. So the
• 31:47
  light comes down at an angle and it crosses.
• 31:50
  And so if you're in the middle, inside of the
• 31:52
  main pillars, then you're in the light. if you're
• 31:55
  on the outside pillars, you're in the dark. Oh,
• 31:57
  interesting. Yeah, so they actually built the
• 32:00
  church in such a way where if you were a member,
• 32:04
  you sat in the light, and if you weren't, you
• 32:06
  had to sit in the dark. That's crazy. So you
• 32:08
  were physically placed in your position of faith.
• 32:13
  Isn't that awesome? That's really interesting.
• 32:14
  Yeah, it's cool. I actually really am starting
• 32:19
  to despise the fact that we don't do things like
• 32:21
  this. Because we have churches that are just
• 32:29
  made of drywall and everything is just painted
• 32:33
  black. And it's not awe -inspiring at all. The
• 32:37
  only thing that's awe -inspiring is if you can
• 32:39
  afford a 70 -foot LED wall. And then if you can
• 32:44
  spend several hundred thousand dollars or up
• 32:46
  to a million dollars on an LED wall, that can
• 32:48
  be awe -inspiring. but it doesn't necessarily.
• 32:53
  It brings a different connotation to it. Yeah,
• 32:56
  it's more like your, where you've experienced
• 33:00
  an LED wall that's awe -inspiring is in like
• 33:05
  secular spaces. Yeah, that's true. So it doesn't
• 33:08
  bring like a cosmic awe -inspiring, I'm a small
• 33:12
  human and God is massive. Whereas. Catholic churches
• 33:16
  were designed to make you feel like God is huge.
• 33:20
  Without saying anything. Going to just, even
• 33:22
  a random one in Europe, or even some of the old
• 33:24
  churches in the US, it's like, man, these are
• 33:28
  incredible. Yeah. Yeah, like walking into them,
• 33:31
  it's kind of like, I mean, there's been many
• 33:32
  Catholic churches that I've been to as well,
• 33:35
  where it's just like you walk in and you're like,
• 33:36
  man, I actually feel different. Yeah. It's not
• 33:40
  like a creepy way, but it's like, I just feel
• 33:42
  like I need to be respectful right now. Yeah.
• 33:45
  Yeah. Well, I mean, it echoes back to, we were
• 33:47
  talking about this before, but Solomon's Temple,
• 33:51
  it echoes back to things like that, where you
• 33:53
  have these, like as you head towards the holy
• 34:00
  place, there are two cherub that their wings
• 34:05
  are spread out. and their wings are touching
• 34:08
  on one side and their other wing is touching
• 34:10
  the wall. And it's something like, I wanna say
• 34:14
  it's something like 15 feet tall. Because I wanna
• 34:17
  say it's like nine cubits. I thought it was nine
• 34:20
  feet tall. I think their wingspan was 10 feet,
• 34:22
  wasn't it? I think they're bigger than that.
• 34:25
  Oh, bigger? Yeah, because I think it was like
• 34:27
  nine cubits or something tall, which would be
• 34:29
  like around 15 feet. So I'd imagine their wingspan's
• 34:33
  at least that long or longer. but and then cherub
• 34:38
  are like crazy kind of crazy looking beings creatures
• 34:43
  beasts right to use genesis language yeah yeah
• 34:48
  that's good they are are beasts uh that are awe
• 34:53
  inspiring absolutely and imagine like i'm five
• 34:56
  nine and and if i had to enter this holy place
• 35:01
  and there are these solid gold gold Cherub that
• 35:07
  I know exists in real life that I know are real
• 35:11
  beings. And I'm seeing representations of them
• 35:13
  that are three times the size of me. It's awe
• 35:18
  -inspiring. It's like I'm gonna go low. Because
• 35:21
  I have to. I'm made low. The place around me
• 35:25
  is making me low. I wish we had more stuff like
• 35:30
  that. The closest thing that I've seen that kind
• 35:33
  of that I can relate to with this, maybe other
• 35:36
  people can in some ways. Have you ever been to
• 35:38
  the Parthenon in Tennessee? So they have like
• 35:42
  a one -to -one recreation of it? You've told
• 35:44
  me about this. Oh, have I? Okay. And honestly,
• 35:46
  this is kind of creepy because it's a pagan thing
• 35:49
  and it's like, there's something weird going
• 35:50
  on with it. Like whenever I went in there, I
• 35:52
  was like, there's something weird, there's something
• 35:54
  off here. We talked about this on the Tipsy episode.
• 35:57
  That's right, we did. That was on Tipsy Theology,
• 35:59
  that's right. So Tipsy Theology. Paul's original
• 36:06
  firstborn? The OG? Yeah, OG pod? Yeah. The firstborn
• 36:11
  child. Go check out Tipsy Theology. There's a
• 36:14
  lot of fun conversations over there. Yeah, casual.
• 36:17
  We'll have hard conversations casually. Yeah.
• 36:19
  That's kind of my... But yeah, you mentioned
• 36:21
  it to me when we did the road trip episode. That's
• 36:25
  right. That's right. I remember that. Yeah, because
• 36:27
  we saw... We saw a different statue randomly.
• 36:30
  Yeah, some type of Eastern... deity or maybe
• 36:35
  guardian, I'm not sure. I still can't identify.
• 36:39
  Yeah, but it was like 20 feet tall, just on the
• 36:41
  side of the highway. Yeah, which you'll see that
• 36:43
  in the episode on Tipsy Theology, but for everybody
• 36:47
  here, I'll say it quickly, in the Parthenon,
• 36:49
  they have a recreation, no, in Tennessee. Tennessee.
• 36:53
  It's like in the Nashville area. Isn't there
• 36:56
  a pyramid in Memphis? Yeah, the Bass Pro Shop.
• 36:59
  And it's supposed to be one of the biggest pyramids,
• 37:01
  right? No, it is a Bass Pro Shop. Wait, what?
• 37:06
  Yeah. Wait, I thought it was a legit pyramid.
• 37:09
  No, it's actually like a Bass Pro Shop. So Bass
• 37:12
  Pro built a pyramid and it happens to be one
• 37:14
  of the biggest. But wasn't that like biggest
• 37:18
  in the world, right? I think so, yeah. That doesn't
• 37:21
  make any sense. It's wild. Is it because Memphis
• 37:23
  has something to do with Egypt? I have no clue.
• 37:28
  But I just love that they that's the American
• 37:30
  way Yeah, of course, we'll do it better and with
• 37:34
  no It's definitely not gonna be there in a thousand
• 37:37
  years. No, so probably not better. It's not gonna
• 37:39
  be better. It's exactly what we're talking about.
• 37:43
  Yeah a cheaply built Church that's good. Yeah,
• 37:47
  it's good. It's gonna come Yeah, but this so
• 37:51
  the statue they did a recreation of the statue
• 37:54
  of Athena that would have been in the original
• 37:55
  Parthenon and it's massive. I actually don't
• 37:59
  remember how tall it is, but what I will say
• 38:02
  is in her hand she's holding Nike. Oh yeah. Not
• 38:09
  a pair of sneakers. No, no. What's the other
• 38:14
  name for the other one? I don't know. Apollos?
• 38:17
  No. The guy who runs really fast. It starts with
• 38:22
  an A. Artemis? Maybe it is, I don't remember.
• 38:26
  Anyway, the messenger, the one with the wings
• 38:28
  on the shoes. Yeah, we'll go with Nike. I think
• 38:32
  that's the right one. Well, she has this other
• 38:36
  demi -god, god, on her hand that she's holding,
• 38:40
  and he is six foot four. But when you're looking
• 38:44
  at the statue, he looks like he's probably 18
• 38:47
  inches tall. He looks like an action figure in
• 38:51
  her hand. Yeah, he just looks like this tiny
• 38:52
  little thing. But he's 6 '4". Yeah. So bigger
• 38:55
  than us. Yes. That's crazy. Bigger than us. And
• 38:58
  when you're looking at it from the ground, it's
• 39:00
  like he looks like he's a couple inches tall.
• 39:03
  That's crazy. Maybe like a foot tall. It's like,
• 39:05
  it's wild. Scale -wise, yeah. Yeah. It's kind
• 39:09
  of like, it's impressive by what they were able
• 39:13
  to do. Right. But it's also creepy because it's...
• 39:17
  It's a false god. Yeah. Well and demigod Yeah,
• 39:20
  like that's a I feel like the only reason we
• 39:23
  talk about demigods now is because of Moana Yeah,
• 39:26
  I think that's probably true Okay, you're welcome.
• 39:31
  Yeah Just an ordinary demigod anything we can
• 39:36
  take Disney don't flack us I didn't sing it good
• 39:43
  enough, so it doesn't matter. They have a whole
• 39:52
  tower of lawyers working on stuff. But yeah,
• 39:57
  demigod is, it's funny, that's like a word that's
• 40:01
  kind of popped back in because of things like
• 40:03
  Moana. That's true, yeah. But there's a biblical
• 40:06
  side to that. Demigod in that space just basically
• 40:10
  means someone who either became a god, which
• 40:15
  is Maui was that way in Moana, he becomes a god,
• 40:20
  or you have classic Disney again, Hercules, who
• 40:24
  is the son of gods, but his god likeness was
• 40:30
  taken away from him. No, because I think Hercules,
• 40:34
  his mom is also a god. That's true, but then
• 40:40
  but then is it Hades takes takes away almost
• 40:44
  all of his like Divinity. Yeah, except for like
• 40:47
  his heel or something. Yeah, it's like a single
• 40:50
  drop in the movie. I think yeah The D God potion
• 40:54
  he made yeah, which sounds a lot like Kenosha's
• 40:58
  like Jesus emptying himself. Yeah Which I think
• 41:03
  that's a whole other episode because I don't
• 41:05
  know that Jesus emptied himself as divinity I
• 41:08
  think potentially Jesus emptied himself of his
• 41:12
  authority in the heavens. Yeah, yeah. And took
• 41:16
  on authority as a man which is over the earth.
• 41:20
  Yeah. Which, that's a whole episode. I mean that's,
• 41:23
  yeah, that's gonna be a good Easter special episode.
• 41:26
  Yeah, I think so too. There's a lot to talk about
• 41:28
  with that. So, holy water. Let me finish that.
• 41:33
  Oh yeah, finish the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 41:34
  sorry. Paul and I have a lot of stuff in our
• 41:37
  heads right now. A lot. We might film 10 episodes
• 41:41
  today. Just with this topic. Yeah. No, so Holy
• 41:45
  Water. Okay, so Catholic Church. I was with my
• 41:48
  family in New York City like probably 10 years
• 41:51
  ago and we went into one of the famous ones like
• 41:56
  Near 30 Rock. Is that Trinity Church? I don't,
• 42:00
  I'm not sure. Okay. but it's kind of a famous
• 42:03
  Catholic church in New York City on the northern
• 42:10
  end of Manhattan. Anyways, I walked in and I
• 42:16
  say 10 years ago, it was probably like 15 years
• 42:18
  ago, because I think I was like 16 or something.
• 42:21
  Okay, yeah. So that would be like 19 years ago,
• 42:25
  sorry. That's a long time ago. Yeah, so I walk
• 42:32
  in and it's cold outside. I mean it was like
• 42:35
  the week after Christmas or something like that.
• 42:37
  And the funny thing is I don't remember this,
• 42:39
  but my dad tells this story all the time. Apparently
• 42:42
  I walked in and the thing about Catholic churches
• 42:44
  is that when you walk in, a lot of times they'll
• 42:47
  have a pillar that's like up to like probably
• 42:50
  chest height. And then there's a bowl on the
• 42:53
  pillar and it's holy water. And I washed my hands
• 42:57
  in it. I don't know why I felt compelled to wash
• 43:03
  my hands. You're like I feel dirty. I should
• 43:05
  But I was like maybe I need like a mini baptism
• 43:08
  here. Is this what we're supposed to do I just
• 43:10
  like washed my hand which thinking back to someone
• 43:13
  rated hands right now Yeah, it's like I was thinking
• 43:15
  back and I was like maybe that helped me in the
• 43:17
  next year. No, no. Do you think they ever just
• 43:21
  kind of cash it in sometimes? Where the guy like
• 43:23
  wakes up, like the priest wakes up late and he's
• 43:25
  like, I don't have time. Let's just put it out.
• 43:27
  To change it? No, to bless it. Oh. He's just
• 43:30
  like, I just put it out. Yeah, that's actually
• 43:33
  a good question. That's a whole, we need to do
• 43:35
  a whole episode. Like infiltrate the church.
• 43:38
  Yeah. And ask these questions. There's got to
• 43:39
  be stuff like that all the time. Yeah, I would
• 43:42
  imagine it's like a surgeon that leaves a cloth
• 43:45
  in somebody's body after like I'd be fine It'll
• 43:48
  work. Yeah, it won't be fine take it out Yeah,
• 43:53
  okay, so Paul I have a question for you, okay
• 43:56
  nice, so we've all heard We've all heard you
• 44:01
  like that segue we've all heard all of us here
• 44:05
  in the comment section That's another podcast.
• 44:09
  Anyways, we've all heard that all dogs go to
• 44:15
  heaven. True. True, yes? Yeah, true. Okay, I
• 44:18
  agree. I saw the movie. It must be true. So if
• 44:23
  all dogs go to heaven, then my question is, which
• 44:27
  angels go to hell? I like asking Paul questions
• 44:37
  that kind of don't make any sense. Cause if you
• 44:41
  understand the categories, if you understand
• 44:44
  the categories of what I'm saying, then it's,
• 44:47
  it's not necessarily an oxymoron, but like it's
• 44:51
  kind of hard to wrap your brain around unless
• 44:53
  you really know the categories. Yeah. Yeah. True.
• 44:57
  Again, we know all dogs go to heaven. Absolutely,
• 45:00
  obviously. Yeah, no one's ever disputed that.
• 45:02
  No, not a single person. And don't. Why even
• 45:05
  have the argument? Don't even bother doing it.
• 45:07
  Yeah, your dog's going to heaven. Accept it.
• 45:10
  But which angels go to hell? Well, yeah, so when
• 45:15
  I hear that question, there's a couple places
• 45:18
  my mind goes. Okay. I like it. Well, so the first
• 45:23
  one is like... It's like, it kind of begs us
• 45:27
  to ask the question of like, well, do they, do
• 45:29
  any of them go to hell? And it's like, well,
• 45:33
  we know that some of them sinned. So like, okay,
• 45:36
  so like what is, what happens then? And so it's
• 45:40
  like, it kind of opens up these places, but then
• 45:42
  also it's like, okay, so what is hell? But I
• 45:46
  think starting off with the first part, like
• 45:48
  do angels. So when we hear that, we just think
• 45:51
  of the righteous beings that are, on the Lord's
• 45:55
  side. And then we don't think about, like, as
• 45:59
  people would say in popular vernacular, is like,
• 46:03
  I've been reading a lot, so I use words like
• 46:06
  that now, is like, it's like a demon or a fallen
• 46:09
  angel. It's like those are the ones we think
• 46:11
  about in hell. Oh, that go to hell. Yeah, we
• 46:13
  don't think - Not just in general. Well, so that's
• 46:15
  the thing, the way you're saying that I think
• 46:16
  is interesting too, because - What I'm asking
• 46:19
  my understanding from like just like growing
• 46:22
  up and it's like this is just the artistic interpretation
• 46:25
  Okay, is that like don't they don't go to hell?
• 46:28
  They just they're there like they rule hell.
• 46:31
  They run it. Oh, right like here Hercules. Yeah
• 46:34
  Hades like Hades is like the brother of Zeus.
• 46:37
  He's like the CEO of hell Yeah, they go back
• 46:40
  and forth and yeah, so I mean it's kind of an
• 46:43
  interesting idea with that It's like okay. So
• 46:44
  where does that come from? And I think that's
• 46:47
  where it's like, okay, so what's the biblical
• 46:49
  idea here? Sure. And then when we look at the
• 46:52
  word hell, I think it's like, that's confusing
• 46:53
  too, because there's so many ideas that seem
• 46:57
  to kind of contradict sometimes. You're bringing
• 47:00
  up, I wanna jump in at like three or four different
• 47:02
  spots. I know, because there's so many things.
• 47:04
  And I'm kind of just like throwing these out
• 47:06
  to get us thinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. But
• 47:09
  so. There's one verse in particular that I want
• 47:12
  to bring out. Okay, and I know you know which
• 47:13
  first I'm talking about Okay, especially when
• 47:15
  it comes to this. Okay, I have it. I have it
• 47:18
  So right here. So if you've listened to Marjorie
• 47:21
  at this point or if you know us at all Paul and
• 47:26
  I really have to work very hard to just talk
• 47:30
  about one thing. So I am burning right now. I
• 47:35
  feel like our other episodes, it hasn't been
• 47:37
  this hard for me. There's just so much in here.
• 47:40
  There's so much I want to say about all these
• 47:41
  little details and things like that. And I'm
• 47:45
  holding a lot back even just that. I'm almost
• 47:46
  saying some of it. We'll kind of let it flow.
• 47:49
  We'll let it flow. Yeah, so like a good sermon,
• 47:51
  let's start with... Yeah, let me throw like a
• 47:54
  good label. Your State Farm is there. It was
• 47:57
  in all of your heads. Oh yeah it was. This podcast
• 48:03
  brought to you by State Farm. Please see your
• 48:06
  local agent details below. Details below. Oh
• 48:10
  dude if they sponsor us. That would be awesome.
• 48:12
  Ready to the read. I know a State Farm agent.
• 48:15
  Give them a call. Well I have their number. Oh
• 48:17
  actually I do too because I ain't sure with them.
• 48:20
  Yeah me too. They're a good neighborhood. Hey
• 48:23
  guys. Do you want to give me like 10 bucks for
• 48:24
  like a podcast? Just take it out of my premium
• 48:30
  Just docking for it. Alright, so let's start
• 48:33
  with a scripture to keep us on track. We gotta
• 48:35
  ground ourselves somehow I think I know what
• 48:37
  you're gonna read and if you read this it's not
• 48:39
  gonna keep us on track Well, we're only gonna
• 48:42
  focus on one part of it at a time. Okay, cuz
• 48:45
  there's a lot. Okay. Okay, so this is second
• 48:48
  Peter 2 for Also like I don't think anybody gets
• 48:56
  this excited about talking about this stuff as
• 48:58
  Paul So I hope that you're enjoying this yeah,
• 49:02
  I'm having so much fun We were actually just
• 49:06
  saying earlier that like it's it feels like everything
• 49:09
  is such a serious and like big topic Yeah, and
• 49:12
  we're not just like playing around mmm, but the
• 49:15
  something about it feels like Like, when we go
• 49:18
  back and edit and stuff, it's like, no, this
• 49:20
  actually feels fun. So I hope you guys are having
• 49:22
  fun. I hope so. Because we realize that what
• 49:24
  we're talking about is - It's weighty stuff.
• 49:27
  Yeah. And we take it seriously and we love it.
• 49:31
  But I think part of the - I feel like a little
• 49:34
  kid sometimes. Yeah. Where it's like, oh, let's
• 49:36
  talk about it. And I think for me, it's like,
• 49:38
  it's the connections and it's like, okay, where
• 49:40
  is the gospel in this? Yeah, because I think
• 49:43
  that's that's the part that can get missed a
• 49:44
  lot of times and why people are afraid to talk
• 49:46
  about certain things Yeah, they're like, I don't
• 49:48
  know how Jesus fits into that. So that's yeah,
• 49:50
  it's like well, he fits into everything, right?
• 49:52
  So let's talk about it and find the connection
• 49:54
  Yeah, see where does it fit in the big picture
• 49:56
  and that's what gets me so excited. Yeah putting
• 49:58
  the other Yeah, I feel like I'm uncovering something.
• 50:01
  Yeah But okay, 2 Peter 2, 4. So for some context.
• 50:07
  Is this about the dogs that go to heaven? Uh,
• 50:08
  it is. Okay. Context done. Second Peter. Yeah,
• 50:13
  so this is 2, 4. Yes. ESV? Correct, ESV. Okay.
• 50:19
  And so this is him, Peter's talking about false
• 50:22
  prophets and teachers. Yeah. And so we're kind
• 50:25
  of starting - Well, why don't you read verse
• 50:26
  one because - That's a good, good idea. I'll
• 50:29
  start. It's funny because - Chapter 2 starts
• 50:32
  with but. We know there was more before this.
• 50:37
  That's the tail end of the statement previously.
• 50:40
  Yeah, another point he made. So starting in chapter
• 50:43
  2, verse 1. and many will follow their sensuality,
• 51:03
  and because of them the way of truth will be
• 51:05
  blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit
• 51:09
  you with false words, their condemnation from
• 51:11
  long ago is not idle, and their destruction is
• 51:14
  not sleep, is not asleep, sorry. For if God did
• 51:19
  not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them
• 51:21
  into hell, and committed them to chains of gloomy
• 51:23
  darkness, to be kept until the judgment, If he
• 51:27
  did not spare the ancient world, but preserved
• 51:29
  Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others,
• 51:32
  when he brought a flood upon the world of the
• 51:35
  ungodly. And then verse six here, if by turning
• 51:40
  the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, he
• 51:43
  condemned them to extinction, making them an
• 51:45
  example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.
• 51:48
  And if he rescued righteous lot, greatly distressed
• 51:51
  by the sensual conduct of the wicked. For as
• 51:54
  that righteous man lived among them day after
• 51:56
  day He was tormenting his righteous soul over
• 51:59
  their lawless deeds that he saw and heard and
• 52:02
  so he kind of continues there about Something
• 52:05
  bad happened and God being faithful to rescue
• 52:07
  people inside of that Yeah, and also it's like
• 52:10
  there is Consequences for false teachers, right
• 52:14
  and you got to look out for it. You got to be
• 52:16
  you got to be diligent But there's an interesting
• 52:19
  so it's so here's the here's the thing that I'm
• 52:21
  gonna say Man, I'm holding myself back a lot.
• 52:24
  Are you so to answer your question kind of is
• 52:28
  like? First like do angels go to hell. Okay.
• 52:33
  It's like well Yes Right, but and that's there's
• 52:39
  like but so it says God did not spare angels
• 52:41
  when they sinned but cast them into hell Well,
• 52:44
  so here's here's the unique thing about this
• 52:46
  verse. Okay And it's unique. I think it's very
• 52:49
  unique Because we see the word hell And so like,
• 52:52
  okay, so what is he talking about? It's a great
• 52:54
  question. And what's unique about this verse
• 52:57
  in particular is the original Greek word for
• 53:00
  hell is different than any other usage in the
• 53:03
  New Testament. And so typically we would see
• 53:07
  the word Hades translated as hell, or you would
• 53:09
  see Gehenna translated as hell, but in this one
• 53:12
  we see the word Tartarus. Okay, wait. because
• 53:19
  we're gonna talk about that for a minute. But
• 53:21
  I wanted you to go back and read verse one because
• 53:24
  I think the thing that I love about 2nd Peter
• 53:27
  2 is that it starts to lay out this, it starts
• 53:32
  to lay out these truths in a way that we don't
• 53:36
  sing about. I think about a lot of the songs
• 53:39
  that we sing even in church and it's like. If
• 53:43
  you move that mountain before he's gonna move
• 53:45
  it again and you're like, it's like all these
• 53:47
  like and you're like, okay But then it but you
• 53:49
  never sing like so if he cast those angels into
• 53:52
  hell, he's gonna do it again You're not you know
• 53:55
  what I mean? It's like, yeah, we don't put that
• 53:57
  in a lyric. No, it's it's weird Yeah, it is weird
• 54:00
  because it also because I also think we don't
• 54:03
  talk about it enough to actually understand what
• 54:06
  it's saying Yeah, that's one of those really
• 54:09
  dense sections That honestly is like 90 % of
• 54:13
  the Bible. Yeah, that is like wait I don't fully
• 54:18
  know what he's saying I need to break this down
• 54:21
  and really think about like what are these individual
• 54:24
  places that yeah talking about but then also
• 54:27
  do it in the context of the fact that he just
• 54:29
  said a bunch of false teachers are gonna teach
• 54:33
  all kinds of heresies and Yeah, even gonna go
• 54:36
  against their slave master is basically what
• 54:40
  he said. Yeah So even, and I think what he's
• 54:45
  referencing there is the one who sent them out
• 54:48
  to teach heresies, they're even gonna give heresies
• 54:52
  to him. And to them. They're gonna turn back
• 54:55
  on everything. Even father of lies. Which is
• 55:00
  crazy. Yeah. And then he goes on and says, because
• 55:03
  these things are true. And I love that because
• 55:07
  it puts this context of like, alright. So these
• 55:09
  are kind of weird things that he's saying are
• 55:12
  true. And we typically read it and just go, yeah,
• 55:15
  he said they're true, they're true. And then
• 55:17
  it's like, well, how does that impact us? What
• 55:19
  is he even talking about? Yeah, because there's
• 55:21
  a lot of depth to what's being said here. Right.
• 55:23
  Yeah, like extreme depth. Yeah. So I think you're
• 55:26
  right to go like, OK, let's jump here. Let's
• 55:29
  look at hell because there's three different
• 55:32
  mentions of the New Testament. Yeah. And so I
• 55:35
  think what's... So I'll start I'll start with
• 55:39
  this. I'm gonna kind of jump back on to a point
• 55:41
  We we touched on briefly. Okay, and it's like
• 55:43
  what's your thought like when you think of hell?
• 55:46
  What image comes what imagery comes to your mind
• 55:49
  if you had to put some adjectives to it? So I
• 55:51
  think two things come to mind and part partly
• 55:55
  Partly I'll just say so two things so like like
• 56:02
  having done some theological studies in college
• 56:07
  Gehenna is specific to me. That really sticks
• 56:10
  out in my mind. It reminds me of, when I hear
• 56:14
  hell, I often think of the side of a valley.
• 56:20
  Because it's part of the Hinnom Valley. Which
• 56:23
  is like, Gehenna is an actual physical place.
• 56:27
  Yeah, so I'm weird because part of my, when you
• 56:31
  say hell, Part of my thought process goes to
• 56:34
  the actual thing. He was referencing Yeah, yeah,
• 56:37
  and what he was saying was it's like that and
• 56:39
  that's the things like he's yeah using that to
• 56:41
  be like It's like this, but it's actually worse.
• 56:43
  Yeah. Yeah, which is like it's basically Gehenna
• 56:47
  was a It was a place that people just dumped
• 56:51
  their trash and their children Yeah, that's another
• 56:56
  side of it because there is that there's like
• 56:58
  a continual fire that was going right to burn
• 57:00
  the trash. Yeah Wasn't there a statue or an idol
• 57:05
  to Molech? Is that who it was? I think this is
• 57:09
  older. Yeah, it might be older than that. Like
• 57:12
  Old Testament, I think there was, they were doing
• 57:15
  child sacrifices there, and then it turned into
• 57:18
  this dumpster fire. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah.
• 57:21
  So it's like, okay, I didn't know that, okay.
• 57:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was this place of child
• 57:27
  sacrifice to Molech. Yes. Okay, and then it became
• 57:30
  a trash dump. The fire was continually burning
• 57:33
  like this just keep it going. Yeah, and they
• 57:35
  were just okay that makes sense But yeah, that's
• 57:37
  in Jeremiah if I remember right, okay, but Jesus
• 57:40
  calls it out. This is Gehenna In reference to
• 57:44
  like how Jesus tells parables. Yeah, he's just
• 57:46
  like it's you know about this thing Mm -hmm.
• 57:49
  It's like that Yeah, but also that brings a whole
• 57:53
  new light to it to me that it was I guess that
• 57:56
  makes since like as you're saying them like yeah,
• 57:58
  I should have known that but that makes way more
• 58:01
  sense because if molek is Being worshipped by
• 58:07
  child sacrifice in Gehenna then he's referencing
• 58:11
  also the actual hell yeah It's not just like
• 58:16
  that a place that they know the place that potentially
• 58:20
  molek isn't but his cousins are, right? That
• 58:25
  opens up a can of worms. It sure does, which
• 58:27
  is good. Yeah, so I think of that, and then I
• 58:31
  almost forgot you asked me a question. So I think
• 58:33
  of that, but then I also think of Dante's imagery.
• 58:42
  Yeah, which I think that's where a lot of people
• 58:43
  would go, without knowing Dante, maybe. Yeah,
• 58:46
  just kind of a place that you actually can walk
• 58:48
  around, but the pathways are are probably hot
• 58:52
  coals and there's just like continual fire burning
• 58:54
  around everything. Yeah, and he's the one that
• 58:56
  kind of established the idea of levels. Right.
• 58:59
  Or like circles of hell. Yeah. Where it's like
• 59:02
  it gets continually worse and worse as you go
• 59:03
  in. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, these people,
• 59:05
  these people stink. Yeah. And then you have the
• 59:08
  demons that are the torturers and the rulers
• 59:11
  and they're like, oh yeah, come on in. We're
• 59:12
  going to hit you with our pitchforks. Yeah. And
• 59:15
  it's like, where do these ideas come from? I
• 59:17
  don't know. Well, so it's... And I say it's because
• 59:20
  I believed a lot of these two because that's
• 59:21
  just what I was taught and that's what I understood
• 59:23
  Yeah, but it's interesting when we when we balance
• 59:25
  that against well, how do what does scripture
• 59:27
  teach, right? Um, so it's like there are these
• 59:30
  ideas like fireiness. Yes, it's eternal fire.
• 59:33
  Yes, um, but it's interesting because then So
• 59:38
  we see that um, well i'll pull this verse up
• 59:40
  too. This isn't this is well and that's interesting
• 59:42
  too of like juxtaposition of um, uh sacrifice.
• 59:46
  Yeah so um Yeah, there's also like, there's also
• 59:52
  this thing where the Genesis story of creation,
• 59:59
  there's a parallel in the ancient world of I
• 1:00:04
  think El maybe, creator God was designing a temple
• 1:00:09
  and it says it was like on the first day it was
• 1:00:14
  filled with flames. Yeah. and then on the second
• 1:00:17
  day it was filled with flames and like it keeps
• 1:00:19
  doing that until the seventh day and it says
• 1:00:23
  and then it was done and he rested but it's like
• 1:00:26
  this continual flame and then of course the Genesis
• 1:00:30
  one story of creation is not a continual flame
• 1:00:34
  it's actually a the type of chaos of flame and
• 1:00:39
  water and it's all of those things the taming
• 1:00:43
  of all of that stuff bringing it into order Yeah.
• 1:00:46
  Which would have been different from other like,
• 1:00:49
  yeah, representations of that. Yeah. And it's
• 1:00:52
  like, it's like, yeah, there's interesting ideas
• 1:00:54
  in there for sure. And it's like the imagery
• 1:00:55
  that we get. Cause I think we see, we definitely
• 1:00:58
  see a lot of pictures. Right. Like what exactly
• 1:01:01
  is it? So this is Matthew 25, 41 ESV. Okay. Matthew
• 1:01:06
  25, 41. And this is Jesus talking about the final
• 1:01:10
  judgment. And so in 41, he says, then he will
• 1:01:14
  say to those on his left, depart from me. You
• 1:01:17
  curse into the eternal fire, prepared for the
• 1:01:19
  devil and his angels. And so it's like, that's
• 1:01:23
  a, that's a big statement right there. Yeah.
• 1:01:25
  So you just kind of answered the question of
• 1:01:27
  why hell? Yeah. So it's like, okay, so it was
• 1:01:31
  prepared for something. And it was interesting
• 1:01:33
  is like, there's a couple of ways you can read
• 1:01:35
  that. So like, why does hell exist? Yeah. For
• 1:01:38
  the devil and his angels. Yeah, Jesus literally
• 1:01:41
  says that that's what he says. Yeah, but it's
• 1:01:43
  interesting. I think we're There's there's one
• 1:01:46
  way to take it. It's like oh for them to to rule
• 1:01:48
  it. I was like, where's that coming from? Yeah,
• 1:01:51
  it's like no, they're actually being we see other
• 1:01:52
  image especially in Revelation. It's like no,
• 1:01:54
  they're being sent to it We're in actually Peter
• 1:01:57
  says they're cast there. Yeah, actually he doesn't
• 1:02:00
  say devil and his angels, right? Yes, it says
• 1:02:04
  that's where the angels went. Yeah, the angels
• 1:02:07
  were cast there. Well, so it's interesting. So
• 1:02:09
  here This goes back to the word Gehenna. But
• 1:02:12
  it's like, okay, but in 2nd Peter, he says Tartarus.
• 1:02:16
  So it's like, okay, now we have a difference
• 1:02:18
  here. So that's kind of interesting. Yeah, because...
• 1:02:22
  The other thing, I'll just finish that little
• 1:02:24
  tangent about the devil real quick. And this
• 1:02:26
  actually goes to Isaiah 14. I feel like I need
• 1:02:31
  more water on this episode. I know. It's a little
• 1:02:34
  dry and hot in here. In Isaiah 14... It's talking
• 1:02:38
  about the king of Babylon. But the way it's written,
• 1:02:42
  it sounds very, very similar to talking about
• 1:02:46
  the devil or Satan or Lucifer. And in that, it
• 1:02:51
  talks about, it's like, when you get cast down,
• 1:02:53
  people will look at you and think, this is the
• 1:02:55
  guy who's tormenting the earth? So it's like,
• 1:02:58
  it's kind of interesting where it's like, there's
• 1:02:59
  no authority, all authority is being stripped.
• 1:03:02
  And it's like, you're just as guilty as everybody
• 1:03:05
  else here. You're not special. You're not ruling
• 1:03:07
  anything. It's like you've been cast down. Yeah,
• 1:03:10
  yeah, and it's like that's I think that's a big
• 1:03:12
  idea for us to keep in mind of like That's judgment
• 1:03:17
  Sure, but now with that we're talking about Gehenna.
• 1:03:21
  We're talking about Hell as we normally think
• 1:03:24
  of it. Yeah, so we see we see pictures of in
• 1:03:28
  in language of Of Hades which is equivalent to
• 1:03:34
  she all which is the Hebrew in the Old Testament.
• 1:03:37
  Yeah, which is not fire. Well, so that's the
• 1:03:40
  thing and it's like, okay, so what is that place?
• 1:03:43
  And also what's interesting is we don't actually
• 1:03:45
  see a picture of, we don't really see a picture
• 1:03:47
  of Gehenna in the Old Testament. So that language
• 1:03:52
  about fire doesn't exist in the Old Testament,
• 1:03:55
  especially when they talk about Sheol. So it's
• 1:03:57
  like, okay, so what is Sheol or what is Hades?
• 1:04:00
  And like the simple use of it is like, it's the
• 1:04:03
  place where Everything that dies goes. It's like
• 1:04:06
  if it dies it goes to Sheol. Yeah, and even in
• 1:04:09
  that there's levels Well, yeah, so there's actually
• 1:04:12
  there's two places within it and we see that
• 1:04:15
  identified actually back to Jesus where he gives
• 1:04:18
  the Parable about the rich man and Lazarus. Yeah,
• 1:04:21
  which is a really interesting picture different
• 1:04:23
  Lazarus. Yeah Yeah, which is that's the common
• 1:04:27
  one. It's a little weird that he doesn't nod
• 1:04:29
  and go different Lazarus guys wink wink Not that
• 1:04:32
  same guy But it's funny because he dies, so it
• 1:04:36
  would be interesting for us to... It's the same
• 1:04:38
  guy. I think that as we read it, too, it's like,
• 1:04:41
  oh, OK, he must be talking about the same guy.
• 1:04:43
  Yeah. Because that guy did die. Because he did
• 1:04:45
  and then came back. I mean, he still died after
• 1:04:47
  he came back. Yeah, true. But so does everybody.
• 1:04:51
  But there is a difference in that. Actually,
• 1:04:53
  that's an interesting point where we see how
• 1:04:56
  Hades is talked about or how Sheol is talked
• 1:04:58
  about changes pre -Christ's death and resurrection
• 1:05:02
  and post. Oh sure. Which I think is very fascinating.
• 1:05:06
  So pre, and we see this where it's like the righteous
• 1:05:08
  and the unrighteous, when they die before Christ,
• 1:05:11
  they go to Sheol. We see that in Genesis with
• 1:05:14
  Jacob when he thought that Joseph had died. We
• 1:05:17
  see that in other verses where it's like, even
• 1:05:20
  David talks about going down to Sheol. And it's
• 1:05:22
  like this is where things go when they die. Well
• 1:05:25
  there's prophecy of Jesus going there as well.
• 1:05:27
  Yeah, yeah. So and so it's a but then we see
• 1:05:31
  the the distinction and we see it especially
• 1:05:33
  very clearly in the in Luke where Jesus talks
• 1:05:36
  about Lazarus and the rich man Yeah, where it's
• 1:05:39
  like there is a separation between the unrighteous
• 1:05:43
  and the righteous where the unrighteous is they're
• 1:05:46
  tormented And he the rich man in the parable
• 1:05:49
  turns to Lazarus in who's next to Abraham? Separated
• 1:05:53
  by this chasm. Yep, but he's in like a paradise
• 1:05:56
  in a way And he's like, can you please have him
• 1:05:59
  dip his hand in water and just try to help me
• 1:06:04
  out, cool me off a little bit. Yeah, which kind
• 1:06:05
  of expresses heat. Yes. But not particularly
• 1:06:08
  fire. Yeah, because we actually don't see that.
• 1:06:11
  So it's interesting because we don't really get
• 1:06:14
  that picture until the New Testament. Yeah, but
• 1:06:16
  to be fair, and I like that. I like that idea.
• 1:06:20
  Maybe to ground this a little bit when it comes
• 1:06:24
  to that idea. You kind of mentioned it offhand
• 1:06:26
  a little bit, but let's ground it to something
• 1:06:29
  that everybody would know. So Jesus on the cross.
• 1:06:34
  Jesus is on the cross, and there's a thief on
• 1:06:38
  his left and a thief on his right. And it's like
• 1:06:43
  an age -old tale of good and evil on your left
• 1:06:46
  and right shoulders. But Jesus is on the cross
• 1:06:49
  and the one thief mocks him and then the other
• 1:06:58
  one doesn't. Yeah. And the other one, Jesus tells
• 1:07:04
  him, I need to just read it because I'm like
• 1:07:07
  it hasn't. Jesus tells the other one, today you
• 1:07:14
  will be with me in paradise. Yeah. And so what
• 1:07:18
  happens is, essentially what happens without
• 1:07:20
  just reading the text word for word, what happens
• 1:07:23
  is one of them is seeing the son of God die for
• 1:07:29
  his sins and rejects him. And when he rejects
• 1:07:34
  him, it damns him to hell. And then the other
• 1:07:41
  one looks upon him and asks, to be with him,
• 1:07:48
  and he says, today you'll be with me in paradise.
• 1:07:51
  So what happens is that story that he tells about
• 1:07:55
  the two places, the one on one side went to one,
• 1:08:00
  and the one on the other side went to the other.
• 1:08:02
  And what he did was, that's where you kinda go
• 1:08:05
  like, all right, so then what happens after Jesus
• 1:08:09
  dies? And actually we see that in Ephesians,
• 1:08:13
  we see that in a few other, the letters that
• 1:08:15
  Paul writes especially. So now what happens is
• 1:08:20
  the righteous are then taken to heaven to be
• 1:08:24
  with Jesus, but everybody else, the unrighteous,
• 1:08:28
  they still go to Hades. They still go to Sheol.
• 1:08:30
  Yeah, but when Jesus dies on the cross, he goes
• 1:08:35
  somewhere. Yeah, he does. Where does he go? Yeah,
• 1:08:37
  and that's where he would go down to Sheol. So
• 1:08:40
  he says, you'll be with me in paradise, right?
• 1:08:44
  So that means that exactly what you're talking
• 1:08:46
  about, Abraham is in paradise. Which would be
• 1:08:51
  Abraham's bosom, is what it would be called.
• 1:08:54
  For those that are just there like, say it. He
• 1:08:56
  goes down to Sheol and he is in paradise. But
• 1:09:02
  it later says that he took the keys of death
• 1:09:07
  and hell. talks about that, that had to be then,
• 1:09:16
  in that moment, when he goes and does that. But
• 1:09:20
  it also talks about later in the New Testament,
• 1:09:23
  that he preaches in hell. And you kinda go like,
• 1:09:28
  wait, what do you mean he preaches in hell? Well
• 1:09:32
  preaching is exclaiming. Is that the right word,
• 1:09:40
  exclaiming? Proclaiming? There you go. Proclaiming
• 1:09:44
  the good news. So Jesus goes down and he goes,
• 1:09:50
  hey guys, I'm here. And what that means for everybody
• 1:09:55
  in paradise is. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, we're going.
• 1:09:58
  Yeah. And then what that means for everybody
• 1:10:00
  else in the other side of the chasm is. Oh no.
• 1:10:08
  Judgment has come. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So at the
• 1:10:11
  point that Jesus goes down and takes the keys
• 1:10:14
  of death and hell. Yeah. He then locks them up.
• 1:10:20
  Yeah. So those who were in paradise raise and
• 1:10:28
  I guess walk around as zombies. Yeah. Over 500
• 1:10:33
  people. Get up from the grave. Yeah. Yeah, which
• 1:10:36
  is a funny little like throwaway sentence they
• 1:10:39
  have There's so many things like that. We're
• 1:10:42
  in the Bible kind of overlook it Well, but the
• 1:10:45
  thing is is like they did it they were like,
• 1:10:47
  oh, I remember that. Yeah, or they're like, oh,
• 1:10:49
  yeah I remember the story of that is very real
• 1:10:53
  to their worldview. Absolutely and for us It's
• 1:10:55
  like I'm not gonna think about that right now.
• 1:10:58
  Most people forget to see even in there I know
• 1:11:00
  yeah, but even that side of it is like Do you
• 1:11:03
  know that in the New Testament, it says that
• 1:11:05
  Jesus goes and preaches in Sheol? Like when he
• 1:11:11
  arrives there, he preaches. Which I should have,
• 1:11:14
  I wish I could look that up, like what? And it's
• 1:11:16
  funny, it's like, it's kind of a, this is more
• 1:11:18
  of a hyzer point, but the way he talks about
• 1:11:20
  that, which I think is funny is like, he's kind
• 1:11:21
  of going down and like taunting them. He's just
• 1:11:24
  like, look, you messed up, here I am, I'm not
• 1:11:28
  hanging out. Yeah, and they know who he is. Oh,
• 1:11:32
  absolutely. So it's interesting, even when we
• 1:11:36
  look at that, it's like, so what is that place?
• 1:11:40
  Because it's a very weird place. And does it
• 1:11:42
  change after Jesus dies and then raises from
• 1:11:45
  the dead? Yeah, and I think it does. But when
• 1:11:48
  we look at that, it's like, okay, so I think
• 1:11:51
  it's fair to say through scripture we see it's
• 1:11:55
  kind of like a headquarters for these spiritual
• 1:12:01
  beings. these fallen angels that are kind of
• 1:12:04
  just there. But then they come out, like Satan's
• 1:12:07
  coming in and out and doing his thing. So it's
• 1:12:09
  like, okay, so he's able to go around. But then
• 1:12:14
  it's like, okay, so like that's happening. There's
• 1:12:16
  people there. We know that there's humans, dead
• 1:12:19
  humans there. Oh man, there's another question
• 1:12:23
  I want to ask. But before I get there, I want
• 1:12:25
  to bring in this really interesting thing. Because
• 1:12:27
  the question for me is like, so where do we get
• 1:12:29
  fire? Because the Old Testament, there's no reference
• 1:12:33
  to Sheol or anything else. So that's the other
• 1:12:36
  thing, within the Old Testament, it's very easy
• 1:12:39
  to say there's nothing beyond that. They didn't
• 1:12:41
  believe in anything else. But there actually
• 1:12:43
  are a lot of verses. 1 Samuel is one of them.
• 1:12:47
  In that book, it talks about they actually knew
• 1:12:49
  that there was something else. Sheol wasn't the
• 1:12:52
  final place, but they knew that that's just where
• 1:12:54
  they had to go for now. But they know there is
• 1:12:58
  more. And so even for a final judgment, they
• 1:13:01
  knew there was something else. There was, Sheol
• 1:13:04
  was always like a temporary holding place, essentially.
• 1:13:07
  And so it's like, okay, so where did that idea
• 1:13:10
  come from? It's like, where are we getting fire?
• 1:13:13
  Because Jesus is really the first one that kind
• 1:13:15
  of brings that up. And you're like, is he inventing
• 1:13:18
  this? Yeah, it feels new, but in a lot of ways,
• 1:13:22
  he's making it plain. Yeah, and there's a very
• 1:13:26
  interesting book that I'd like to introduce.
• 1:13:28
  To this conversation right now. Okay, have we
• 1:13:32
  talked about it before? Can you guess what it
• 1:13:34
  is? Have we talked about it before? We sure have.
• 1:13:39
  For those that are just listening, he just pulled
• 1:13:42
  up one Enoch. And they're like, oh no. What's
• 1:13:46
  he gonna do with it? Well, but I think it's important
• 1:13:48
  to say, and if you haven't gone back and listened
• 1:13:50
  to some of those earlier episodes. Yeah. martyrs
• 1:13:55
  row we kind of explained that there's a there's
• 1:13:58
  a lot of texts there's a lot of Jewish temple
• 1:14:03
  texts there's a lot of things written down pre
• 1:14:08
  incarnation pre Jesus birth that really kind
• 1:14:13
  of wraps up and speaks very explicitly to things
• 1:14:18
  like well one Enoch has a lot of Specific prophecy
• 1:14:24
  about the Messiah. Yes, and Jesus seems to reference
• 1:14:28
  things from it Like using the language of the
• 1:14:31
  son of man. Mm -hmm He does that so go back and
• 1:14:36
  watch that episode because we really I think
• 1:14:38
  it's pretty insightful on it. Like we yeah time
• 1:14:41
  into it Yeah, and we talk really about like the
• 1:14:44
  the things that That Jesus would have pulled
• 1:14:47
  from it. Yes, not necessarily the hot button
• 1:14:50
  Yeah concepts from it But then you also look
• 1:14:53
  like look at like like second temple literature
• 1:14:56
  like there's there's a bunch of stuff That's
• 1:14:59
  I mean you have like um I almost can't even name
• 1:15:03
  them, but it's like I mean, there's like book
• 1:15:05
  of abraham. There's like oh, yeah book of uh
• 1:15:09
  adam and eve there's like all kinds of stuff
• 1:15:11
  random ones Yeah, yeah, and it's part of the
• 1:15:14
  jewish tradition and a lot of it is like hey
• 1:15:16
  This is what we believe filled in the gaps. Yeah,
• 1:15:19
  so like and that doesn't necessarily mean any
• 1:15:21
  of it's true And they're certainly not saying
• 1:15:25
  that it's the word of God. In a lot of ways,
• 1:15:27
  all they're doing is just writing down. It's
• 1:15:30
  just tradition. Part of their tradition. It's
• 1:15:31
  just literature. Yeah, it's like, these are the
• 1:15:33
  gaps of the Old Testament, of like, here's the
• 1:15:37
  context of some of these things. And some of
• 1:15:40
  that stuff isn't, like, we don't really have
• 1:15:44
  a way for it to be credible. Yeah. But, yeah,
• 1:15:49
  it's just interesting because... Because one
• 1:15:51
  of the things that I think Paul and I both like
• 1:15:54
  about it and find interesting about it is that
• 1:15:57
  we know for sure that some of these texts, specifically
• 1:16:01
  one Enoch, that was found at Qumran in the Dead
• 1:16:05
  Sea Scrolls, along with other things like that,
• 1:16:09
  we know that it would have been a text that Jesus
• 1:16:11
  knew and understood. It would have been a book
• 1:16:14
  he read. So it's like, I can't... And clearly
• 1:16:17
  because he quotes it a lot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
• 1:16:19
  But also like... We're both kind of early 2000s
• 1:16:25
  emo kids. And a characteristic of that is the
• 1:16:29
  bands that I love, I also like to go on a deep
• 1:16:33
  dive of the bands that they loved. And there's
• 1:16:35
  a little bit of that with like, okay, I love
• 1:16:39
  Jesus and I love what he's talking about. I wanna
• 1:16:43
  read what Jesus read. And that's interesting
• 1:16:46
  to me. And I think, I mean, that's a big thing.
• 1:16:49
  I don't want to spend too much more time on it.
• 1:16:51
  There's a whole episode about it. Sorry. No,
• 1:16:54
  it's fair. To all the newbies coming in, they're
• 1:16:57
  just like, oh my gosh. And it's like, OK, it's
• 1:16:59
  fair enough. Thanks for being here. I'm having
• 1:17:03
  a lot of fun. But I think it's fair to say it's
• 1:17:05
  like, just because it's quoted by scripture doesn't
• 1:17:08
  mean it's true. But it means it influenced why
• 1:17:11
  they wrote what they wrote. And so it's like,
• 1:17:14
  OK, I think that's important. To just let's understand
• 1:17:17
  where they're coming from. Sure. Whether it's
• 1:17:19
  right or wrong, we'll let the Holy Spirit convict
• 1:17:22
  you on that. And just as it does for us, it's
• 1:17:25
  like, I'm not saying by any means this is not
• 1:17:27
  canon. We've went into that too, so it's like,
• 1:17:30
  we'll take it for what it is. And it's an old
• 1:17:34
  book. And there's a big argument to be made that
• 1:17:37
  Jewish writers tried to keep it out of canon
• 1:17:41
  because of how much it prophesied of Jesus. Is
• 1:17:47
  an interesting argument for one enoch. It's pretty
• 1:17:50
  it's pretty interesting. Yeah, especially with
• 1:17:52
  like the councils and Yeah, agustin Fighting
• 1:17:56
  for a natural world view. Yeah all that stuff.
• 1:17:59
  But anyway back to hell back to hell so What
• 1:18:04
  I what I was if you're going through hell Keep
• 1:18:08
  on going. All right, go ahead. Sorry. There's
• 1:18:10
  a lot of songs. There's no especially country
• 1:18:12
  music I know i'm they're kind of they're kind
• 1:18:14
  of down this path. I like it. Um So, Old Testament.
• 1:18:20
  No fire. No fire. New Testament, fire. Where
• 1:18:24
  fire? Who lit the fire? Wood fire. Campfire.
• 1:18:30
  Yes! We did it! I knew it. I knew it could be
• 1:18:36
  done. You're like, why are you talking about
• 1:18:39
  wood? We didn't start the fire. We started the
• 1:18:41
  whole episode with wood. I know you did. Oh,
• 1:18:45
  that's so good. Look at God. Thanks, Mathias.
• 1:18:48
  Look at God. Well, so I want to read two chapters
• 1:18:52
  from one Enoch. OK. And actually, I'm going to
• 1:18:55
  read the later one first. What do you mean by
• 1:18:59
  that? So they're not in numerical order. OK.
• 1:19:03
  So I'm reading this is chapter 21. OK. And then
• 1:19:06
  I'm going to go back and read chapter 10. OK.
• 1:19:08
  And so this, the title of the top. is called
• 1:19:11
  The Place of Punishment for the Disobedient Stars.
• 1:19:16
  Wow. It's a big title, right? Yeah. We need to
• 1:19:20
  do a whole episode on stars. And actually just
• 1:19:22
  like the cosmological language. Yeah. I think
• 1:19:24
  it's important. So summary of that. Oftentimes
• 1:19:28
  in scripture, in a lot of literature, we see
• 1:19:31
  stars are referring to... Sons of God. Sons of
• 1:19:34
  God. Or angels. Particularly like one that will
• 1:19:37
  stick out to you is Job. when God says, where
• 1:19:40
  were you when I put the stars in the sky? And
• 1:19:45
  he's referring to Ben Elohim, which is sons of
• 1:19:50
  God. So he's not necessarily saying, where are
• 1:19:54
  you when I made planets? These giant gas balls.
• 1:19:58
  He's actually potentially referencing Deuteronomy
• 1:20:01
  32 in laying out the territories. Yeah, okay.
• 1:20:06
  That's a whole other episode. I'm like, I wanna
• 1:20:10
  go down that too. Look out for that. So I'll
• 1:20:12
  start reading here. This is 21 -1. I traveled
• 1:20:15
  to where it was chaotic. I just had to say that
• 1:20:19
  first. Well, that's Genesis 1 language. Yeah.
• 1:20:22
  Yeah. And there I saw a terrible thing. I saw
• 1:20:26
  neither heaven above nor firmly found at earth,
• 1:20:29
  but a chaotic and terrible place. And there I
• 1:20:32
  saw seven of the stars of heaven. He kind of
• 1:20:35
  just lays it out for us there. Yeah, and this
• 1:20:37
  is the vision of Enoch. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, who's
• 1:20:40
  being guided by, we'll see him introduced here
• 1:20:42
  by Uriel. And there I saw seven of the stars
• 1:20:48
  of heaven bound and thrown in together like great
• 1:20:52
  mountains and burning in fire. Oh, fire. Interesting.
• 1:20:55
  Fire. Then I said, for what reason have they
• 1:20:59
  been bound and for what reason have they been
• 1:21:01
  thrown here? Then Uriel said to me, one of the
• 1:21:04
  holy angels who was with me, and he was their
• 1:21:07
  leader, he said to me, Enoch, why do you inquire,
• 1:21:11
  and why are you eager for the truth? These are
• 1:21:14
  the stars of heaven that transgress the command
• 1:21:16
  of the Lord. They have been bound here until
• 1:21:19
  10 ,000 years are fulfilled, the time of their
• 1:21:21
  sins. From there I traveled to another place,
• 1:21:25
  more terrible than this one. And I saw terrible
• 1:21:29
  things, a great fire burning and flaming there,
• 1:21:31
  and the place had a narrow cleft extending to
• 1:21:34
  the abyss, full of great pillars of fire borne
• 1:21:37
  downward. Neither the measure nor the size was
• 1:21:40
  I able to see or to estimate. Then I said, How
• 1:21:44
  terrible is this place and fearful to look at?
• 1:21:46
  Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels
• 1:21:49
  who was with me, and said to me, Enoch, why are
• 1:21:51
  you frightened and shaken? And I replied, because
• 1:21:58
  of this terrible place and because of the fearful
• 1:22:00
  sight. And he said, this place is a prison for
• 1:22:04
  the angels. Here they will be confined forever.
• 1:22:08
  So there's like, it's really interesting what's
• 1:22:10
  happening here. Cause first he tells us, he's
• 1:22:13
  like, I saw this horrible sight and I saw angels
• 1:22:18
  there being bound up. And he's like, what's going
• 1:22:22
  on here? And he says, oh, These are the angels
• 1:22:25
  that disobeyed the Lord. And you're like, oh,
• 1:22:29
  well, that's interesting. Second Peter. Right.
• 1:22:32
  It's like, oh, so that's where they are. They're
• 1:22:34
  bound in chains of gloomy darkness. Yeah. And
• 1:22:36
  where does second, like, where does Peter get
• 1:22:39
  that language from? Yeah. Either Jesus told him.
• 1:22:44
  Yeah. Right. And he believed what Jesus said.
• 1:22:47
  Mm hmm. Or they talked about it, potentially.
• 1:22:53
  just in the conversations, and or he read Enoch
• 1:22:58
  one. Right. Which was temple literature at the
• 1:23:02
  time. Well yeah, and then what's interesting
• 1:23:03
  about it, like what I mean by temple literature
• 1:23:06
  is one Enoch was in their temple. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:23:10
  it was one of the scrolls. Yeah. They had with
• 1:23:12
  them. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you go to the temple
• 1:23:14
  and there's one Enoch. Yeah. Next to the law
• 1:23:18
  and the prophets. Yeah, which is crazy. Yeah.
• 1:23:21
  Crazy to think about. But it's like, okay, so
• 1:23:24
  what's interesting about that is he describes
• 1:23:25
  this horrible place where we see... And this
• 1:23:29
  is like 500 plus years before Dante's Inferno.
• 1:23:32
  Yes. So you go like, where does Dante come from?
• 1:23:37
  From the traditions, yeah. He's getting it from
• 1:23:41
  somewhere. And then he makes his little artist
• 1:23:43
  interpretation on top. And again, humans are
• 1:23:47
  not originally creative. Right. We don't just
• 1:23:52
  make stuff up. We're not good at it No, it completely
• 1:23:55
  original things. We can't do it. No, we create
• 1:23:59
  with God, right? Yeah, the Genesis story. That's
• 1:24:02
  what Adam. Yes We create based on what he created
• 1:24:04
  when Adam names the animals Yeah, the language
• 1:24:07
  of naming them is creating. Yeah. Yeah, so he
• 1:24:11
  creates with God, which is a it's a cool It's
• 1:24:14
  a cool thought. Okay, keep going. But yeah, well,
• 1:24:16
  so okay, so before we jump to this other one,
• 1:24:18
  okay This other chapter's like, so what do we
• 1:24:20
  see here? It's like, okay, so we see a horrible
• 1:24:23
  fiery place with the stars of heaven that disobey
• 1:24:26
  the Lord being bound there. This says 10 ,000
• 1:24:30
  years, which was supposed to be like the duration
• 1:24:33
  of how bad their sins were. It's like they have
• 1:24:34
  to pay for every year of the sins that they committed.
• 1:24:38
  And it's like, oh wow, they must've done some
• 1:24:39
  bad stuff. Which we'll get into in this next
• 1:24:43
  part. But then what happens next? Well then he
• 1:24:46
  gets taken to another place. He said, this place
• 1:24:49
  is worse. And it's immeasurable, is what he tells
• 1:24:53
  us. Oh, that's so crazy. And you're like, oh,
• 1:24:56
  and he's like, OK, well, what's this place for?
• 1:24:58
  Yeah, yeah. And Uriel tells him, oh, this is
• 1:25:01
  for them later. Oh, it's the place that was prepared
• 1:25:06
  for them later. And it's like, that's Gehenna.
• 1:25:08
  Oh, it says that. It doesn't. But that's what
• 1:25:11
  he's describing here. Gotcha. Because where's
• 1:25:13
  the final place after judgment? Oh, right. OK.
• 1:25:15
  It's like, that's Gehenna. That's where they
• 1:25:17
  go. So that is that is the typical hell it's
• 1:25:21
  this giant lake of fire It's like whoa. Okay,
• 1:25:25
  so Enoch's talking about it, right? But not only
• 1:25:28
  that he's talking about them being bound up.
• 1:25:30
  Well, okay, so he know Enoch is not talking about
• 1:25:33
  it. That's very he's asking questions Enoch is
• 1:25:37
  Experiencing it. Yeah, that's yeah fair fair
• 1:25:40
  and that I feel like that's important a lot even
• 1:25:43
  in the prophets Yeah of the Old Testament. Yeah
• 1:25:45
  is Ezekiel, Isaiah, they're not saying it. That's
• 1:25:50
  a good point. They're seeing it. Yeah. Or they're
• 1:25:53
  experiencing it in a dream. And writing their
• 1:25:56
  experience. Again, they didn't come up with it.
• 1:25:58
  Yeah. They're experiencing something and writing
• 1:26:00
  it down. Yeah, that's a great distinction. But
• 1:26:04
  what's interesting, and I'm gonna tie this back
• 1:26:05
  in a second, Peter, real quick. Okay. Is, so
• 1:26:08
  where, like, what's the first place to describe,
• 1:26:12
  where is that? Is that Sheol? Well, actually,
• 1:26:15
  it's not. okay because why do we know it's not
• 1:26:18
  because who's bound up there that's where the
• 1:26:21
  devil and his angels no that's where the original
• 1:26:23
  angels that sinned yes yeah and it's like well
• 1:26:26
  where are they well second Peter says they're
• 1:26:29
  in Tartarus right we're right so he's like oh
• 1:26:31
  so he sees Tartarus he sees these angels that
• 1:26:35
  disobeyed the Lord's command Tartarus and then
• 1:26:37
  he says now I'm gonna Tartarus he says now I'm
• 1:26:41
  gonna show you where their final place is going
• 1:26:43
  to be. That's crazy. Where they go forever. Yeah,
• 1:26:45
  yeah, yeah. And it's like, whoa, that's that
• 1:26:47
  is horrifying. That is horrifying. And then what
• 1:26:49
  we find out, especially what we find out in second
• 1:26:52
  Peter is who else goes there? Well, the false
• 1:26:57
  prophets go there, the false teachers. anyone
• 1:27:00
  that sides against the Lord, who disobeys, who
• 1:27:03
  rejects the Lord and his apostles, they get the
• 1:27:06
  same treatment that Sodom and Gomorrah got, but
• 1:27:08
  worse. He even says, he says it'd be better for
• 1:27:12
  Sodom and Gomorrah. Let me find that verse. No,
• 1:27:14
  no, he says it will be better for Sodom. It will
• 1:27:21
  be better for Tyre. He says it will be better
• 1:27:24
  for them that if what... the children of Israel
• 1:27:29
  are witnessing in him being there, if they had
• 1:27:33
  been there, truly I say to you, is it down here?
• 1:27:36
  No, you got it. No, yeah. Truly I say to you,
• 1:27:39
  it will be more bearable on the Day of Judgment
• 1:27:42
  for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than that
• 1:27:44
  for this town, which - And which he's referring
• 1:27:47
  to the towns that reject his apostles. Right.
• 1:27:52
  And so it's like, what are they really rejecting?
• 1:27:54
  They're rejecting the gospel. They're rejecting
• 1:27:56
  Christ. Yeah, and he's basically saying like,
• 1:28:00
  so those and the false prophets. Yeah. And anyone
• 1:28:06
  with them. That's terrible. So it's like anyone
• 1:28:09
  against the Lord. It's like he's better to be
• 1:28:13
  Sodom and Gomorrah in that case. Yeah. Which
• 1:28:15
  is like, OK, that's pretty serious. That's pretty
• 1:28:17
  horrible. So it's like, OK, so what like what
• 1:28:20
  is happening? Sure. And so I with this. It's
• 1:28:24
  a little Enoch trip we're taking. I want to bring
• 1:28:28
  up this. This is chapter 10. A trip down Enoch
• 1:28:31
  Lane. It's a scary place. That took my brain
• 1:28:35
  a lot to get there. We've been saying a lot of
• 1:28:38
  things. We have. Yeah. This is a very dense episode.
• 1:28:42
  I love it. So I'm going to start. I'm going to
• 1:28:45
  read Enoch 10. That needs to be a t -shirt. This
• 1:28:46
  is a very dense episode. It's going to be a pocket
• 1:28:49
  tee, of course. Yeah, there you go. This is going
• 1:28:51
  to be a dense episode. at pocketis .com. Oh that'd
• 1:28:56
  be so good. So chapter 10 verse 1 through 15
• 1:29:01
  is what I'm gonna read. Then the Most High declared,
• 1:29:05
  and the Great Holy One spoke, and He sent Sariel
• 1:29:07
  to the son of Lamech saying, go to Noah and say
• 1:29:10
  to him in my name, hide yourself, and reveal
• 1:29:14
  to him that the end is coming, the whole earth
• 1:29:16
  will perish, and tell him that a deluge, deluge,
• 1:29:21
  is about to come on the whole earth and destroy
• 1:29:23
  everything on the earth. Thank you. Teach the
• 1:29:26
  righteous one what he should do, the son of Lamech,
• 1:29:29
  how he may preserve himself alive and escape
• 1:29:32
  forever. From him a plant will be planted and
• 1:29:36
  his seed will endure for all generations of eternity.
• 1:29:40
  To Raphael, he said, go Raphael and bind Azazel,
• 1:29:45
  as it's in other translations. Oh wow, okay.
• 1:29:48
  Hand and foot and cast him into the darkness.
• 1:29:50
  and make an opening in the wilderness, that is
• 1:29:54
  in Dadayel, throw him there and lay beneath him
• 1:29:58
  sharp and jagged stones and cover him with darkness
• 1:30:01
  and let him dwell there for an exceedingly long
• 1:30:03
  time. Cover up his face and let him not see the
• 1:30:06
  light. And on the day of the great judgment,
• 1:30:10
  he will be led away to the burning conflagration
• 1:30:13
  and heal the earth. which the watchers have desolated
• 1:30:18
  and announced the healing of the earth that the
• 1:30:20
  plague may be healed and all the sons of men
• 1:30:23
  may not perish because of the mystery that the
• 1:30:25
  watchers told and taught their sons and all the
• 1:30:29
  earth was made desolate by the deeds of the teaching
• 1:30:31
  of Asael and over him write all the sins and
• 1:30:36
  go to Gabriel he said and to Gabriel he said
• 1:30:40
  go Gabriel You're not going to be the only one
• 1:30:43
  who swears on this. I didn't swear. No, you didn't.
• 1:30:49
  Go Gabriel to the bastards, to the half -breeds,
• 1:30:51
  to the sons of miscegenation. Did I say that
• 1:30:57
  right? Miscegenation? Yeah. That's a big word.
• 1:31:03
  Yeah. And destroy the sons of the Watchers from
• 1:31:06
  among the sons of men. send them against one
• 1:31:09
  another in a war of destruction, length of days
• 1:31:11
  they will not have, and no petition will be granted
• 1:31:14
  to their fathers in their behalf, so that they
• 1:31:18
  should expect to live an everlasting life, nor
• 1:31:20
  even that each of them should live five hundred
• 1:31:23
  years. And to Michael he said, Go, Michael, bind
• 1:31:28
  Shimehaza and the others with him, who have mated
• 1:31:31
  with the daughters of men, so that they were
• 1:31:34
  defiled by them in their uncleanness. And when
• 1:31:37
  their sons perish and they see the destruction
• 1:31:40
  of their beloved ones, bind them for seventy
• 1:31:42
  generations in the valleys of the earth until
• 1:31:45
  the day of their judgment and consummation, until
• 1:31:48
  the everlasting judgment is consummated. Then
• 1:31:52
  they will be led away to the fiery abyss and
• 1:31:54
  to the torture and to the prison where they will
• 1:31:57
  be confined forever. And everyone who is condemned
• 1:32:00
  and destroyed henceforth will be bound together
• 1:32:03
  with them until the consummation of their generation.
• 1:32:06
  And at the time of the judgment, which I shall
• 1:32:09
  judge, they will perish for all generations,
• 1:32:12
  destroy all the spirits of the half breeds and
• 1:32:15
  the sons of the watchers because they have wronged
• 1:32:17
  men. So there's a lot. So here's the thing. To
• 1:32:25
  some people listening to this, they're going
• 1:32:27
  to be like, I don't understand 90 percent of
• 1:32:31
  what you just read. And because the first passage
• 1:32:33
  you read. we were in the context. Yeah. Straight
• 1:32:37
  out of the scriptures. I added more context.
• 1:32:40
  Yeah, yeah. So you added a bunch of stuff that
• 1:32:42
  we haven't even talked about yet. Yeah. Which
• 1:32:45
  is interesting. So you named two people. I did.
• 1:32:49
  But those two individuals were cherub. And those
• 1:32:53
  two cherub are not mentioned by name in the canon.
• 1:32:57
  Correct. So in the Bible that you have in your
• 1:33:01
  hand or on your app. Those two cherubs are not
• 1:33:05
  mentioned by name. Correct. However, the book
• 1:33:09
  of Enoch, one, references those two individuals
• 1:33:13
  specifically in reference to the moment in Genesis
• 1:33:19
  chapter six. Yeah. Where the sons of God came
• 1:33:22
  down and were with the daughters of men. Yep.
• 1:33:27
  And one of them, Azazel, Mm -hmm Was the one
• 1:33:33
  who led the charge? Yeah According to Enoch one.
• 1:33:38
  Yes, and then the other one shimmy ozza. Is that
• 1:33:41
  how you say it? I'm sure I was guessing the whole
• 1:33:44
  time is is the one to have Apparently according
• 1:33:51
  to Enoch one taught the sons of man so the one
• 1:33:55
  or the the this the fathers of the daughters
• 1:34:00
  of man, everything that we know now. Well, he
• 1:34:07
  would be calling it this forbidden knowledge,
• 1:34:09
  the language that he uses. Which is similar to
• 1:34:13
  Genesis 3. Yes. It's the follow through of that.
• 1:34:18
  It's like the non -summary version. Yeah. So
• 1:34:24
  it's interesting, and this is why I bring it
• 1:34:26
  up in this way right now. Okay. And it's because
• 1:34:29
  of - Yeah, because we don't need to get too far
• 1:34:30
  into that. I just feel like we need to name it
• 1:34:32
  really quickly. No, I think that's - I'm glad
• 1:34:33
  you did that. I'm very glad you did that. But
• 1:34:36
  it's like, okay, so I just dropped kind of a
• 1:34:38
  bomb on us. Yeah, yeah. The one thing that's
• 1:34:40
  funny in that is like, he talks about them being
• 1:34:42
  cast in the fiery pit on the Day of Judgment.
• 1:34:44
  Right. So what's interesting is like, this idea,
• 1:34:47
  this language had already existed. Yes. And so
• 1:34:50
  it's like this isn't a new idea that Jesus just
• 1:34:52
  creates no, um, and he's very capable of doing
• 1:34:55
  that He read it in one, you know, but he's like
• 1:34:57
  no, this has always been what's going to happen.
• 1:35:00
  Yeah There is judgment there are consequences
• 1:35:03
  for their decisions for their act of rebellion
• 1:35:06
  against the lord himself And they know what it
• 1:35:10
  is, right? Um, which kind of paints a very interesting
• 1:35:12
  picture in how we read their interactions now
• 1:35:16
  um, but going back to second peter so when he
• 1:35:20
  didn't spare the angels when they sinned. Well,
• 1:35:22
  who are those angels? Well, we already see the
• 1:35:26
  connection tied into Enoch, and I don't think
• 1:35:29
  it's a very big stretch at all to say that's
• 1:35:31
  who he's talking about. And if we want to keep
• 1:35:34
  it within scripture, it's tied back into Genesis
• 1:35:37
  6, where we see the same story play out. But
• 1:35:41
  what's he talking about? He's like, this is what
• 1:35:43
  they did. This is the egregious... Choices the
• 1:35:48
  heinous crimes that they committed and this is
• 1:35:51
  this is what I prepared for them because of that
• 1:35:54
  But now it's like yeah, they've corrupted men.
• 1:35:57
  They've they've caused this great sin against
• 1:35:59
  men and now We're we've chosen with them to rebel
• 1:36:05
  against the Lord Yeah, and so our judgment is
• 1:36:08
  the same judgment that was originally prepared
• 1:36:10
  for them Yeah, and let me say this so yes this
• 1:36:13
  there's some of this that can feel like a side
• 1:36:15
  story So it's not, it's a through line. So let's
• 1:36:19
  say this, so the judgment that he's witnessing
• 1:36:23
  them currently in, that is a result of their
• 1:36:27
  corruption of man? At what point in the timeline
• 1:36:31
  in the scriptures, in the Bible? I mean that
• 1:36:35
  would have been post -Genesis 6. So it would
• 1:36:41
  be after they had committed their sin. Right.
• 1:36:44
  which would have been the reason for the flood.
• 1:36:47
  Yes. So that's actually a huge reveal, I feel
• 1:36:51
  like. It is a huge reveal. We've teased it before.
• 1:36:54
  We have. Yeah. But basically the flood over the
• 1:36:58
  face of the earth or another episode we might
• 1:37:01
  talk about localized flood and all that stuff.
• 1:37:04
  But the flood, the reason why it was important
• 1:37:08
  was because the corruption of man had gotten
• 1:37:11
  so bad. they didn't corrupt themselves, they
• 1:37:15
  were corrupted. And so what was happening on
• 1:37:18
  the earth at the time was the sons of God, the
• 1:37:24
  Ben Elohim, the stars, the cherub in the garden,
• 1:37:31
  like these beings, these beasts of the field,
• 1:37:37
  to use Genesis language, these other beasts of
• 1:37:42
  the field, they were corrupting the men on the
• 1:37:49
  earth with forbidden knowledge, unleashed because
• 1:37:55
  of the garden, what happened in the garden. And
• 1:37:59
  it had gotten so bad that God had to just wipe
• 1:38:06
  it clean. What he was wiping clean though, was
• 1:38:11
  not bad people, it was corrupted. It was corrupted
• 1:38:17
  bloodlines, it was corrupted, they say half -breed,
• 1:38:23
  which feels really aggressive. It's a very strong
• 1:38:26
  language. Yeah, but what they're talking about
• 1:38:28
  is the whole reason for Noah and his family is
• 1:38:33
  that they had not been corrupted. by the sons
• 1:38:38
  of God who were rampant on the earth from the
• 1:38:43
  moment of Genesis 6. So God is essentially, I
• 1:38:48
  guess maybe it feels weird to say cleaning up
• 1:38:50
  his mess, but cleaning up the mess that resulted
• 1:38:55
  from this betrayal that then creates a moment
• 1:39:00
  of judgment pretty quickly. Pretty quick, yeah.
• 1:39:04
  pretty quickly in our timeline of reading, but
• 1:39:08
  it was a decent amount of time. It was a long
• 1:39:10
  time. Yeah. And that's potentially like side
• 1:39:12
  story and like fun thing to think about. That's
• 1:39:16
  potentially your classical golden age. Yeah,
• 1:39:20
  yeah. So you're like monolithic structures and
• 1:39:24
  pyramids and that's potentially your golden age.
• 1:39:26
  Q Graham Hancock. Yeah. No, and it does bring
• 1:39:34
  up a lot of questions which I think are good.
• 1:39:36
  That's what we're here to explore. But I think
• 1:39:39
  what's important, and this is why I wanted to
• 1:39:41
  make sure this whole time even getting to this
• 1:39:43
  point, is let's ground this in scripture and
• 1:39:47
  what is here. And so it's making those connections
• 1:39:51
  between what Jesus says, what Peter says, what
• 1:39:55
  the Old Testament has taught, and then what Enoch
• 1:39:58
  can shed some light on some stuff too. It's like,
• 1:40:04
  oh, there are these connections that aren't stretches.
• 1:40:08
  It's kind of painted out right here. I mean,
• 1:40:10
  even when we look at Jude, it's five through
• 1:40:13
  seven, I believe. It makes a connection between
• 1:40:18
  Sodom and Gomorrah and their sexual sin and how
• 1:40:22
  that's what they did. That's what the angels
• 1:40:24
  did as well. And it's like, oh, well, that's
• 1:40:28
  Genesis six. And it's like, okay, so we're all
• 1:40:30
  talking about the same thing. And so now, how
• 1:40:34
  do we fill in those gaps of what we do know and
• 1:40:36
  we don't know? And there's a lot inside of scripture
• 1:40:39
  alone that we can pull from if we read it the
• 1:40:43
  way it's written. Yeah, and I feel like this
• 1:40:45
  is one of those things where I feel like even
• 1:40:48
  for the last couple years for me, and I feel
• 1:40:49
  like probably the last eight to 10 years for
• 1:40:52
  you, of just going like, oh, there's so much
• 1:40:57
  that just in morning devotional time, I just
• 1:41:01
  for a long time was like I'm just reading this
• 1:41:04
  like I feel like this the Spirit of God is Working
• 1:41:09
  in me and communicating to me through this text
• 1:41:12
  But I just feel like I'm missing a lot of it
• 1:41:14
  a lot of what's going on So I think for a long
• 1:41:18
  time I just sat in the New Testament Because
• 1:41:21
  Jesus would make things plain, but then you also
• 1:41:23
  speak in parables so it was like but there was
• 1:41:26
  a bunch of stuff that he said who I'm like Maybe
• 1:41:29
  I'll find that out later. Yeah. Yeah, I'll ask
• 1:41:31
  him that when I get there Yeah, which is we should
• 1:41:33
  do a whole episode on that's a cool one. Yeah
• 1:41:37
  But we have a lot of content we can talk about
• 1:41:40
  yeah But I think that is one of those things
• 1:41:44
  where you you look at it and go Oh, there's this
• 1:41:46
  whole storyline that makes all of this stuff
• 1:41:50
  so much richer and make way more sense Yeah,
• 1:41:53
  it's like why did the flood happen? I don't know
• 1:41:56
  people are just bad Like that's it? No, actually
• 1:42:01
  there were spiritual beings, there were beasts
• 1:42:05
  that once roamed the earth that were watching
• 1:42:10
  over the earth, specifically called Watchers.
• 1:42:14
  We see that language in Daniel. Yes, Daniel 4.
• 1:42:18
  And that's actually an interesting one. So in
• 1:42:20
  Daniel 4, I did want to mention that, and Daniel
• 1:42:23
  4 is kind of one of the only times where you
• 1:42:25
  see the word Watcher. referring to a divine being.
• 1:42:30
  And in Daniel 4, that's the dream that Nebuchadnezzar
• 1:42:35
  has where he's going to be, it says that he,
• 1:42:41
  in his dream, is told that his mind will be changed
• 1:42:47
  from the mind of a man to the mind of a beast,
• 1:42:50
  and it will be a period of seven, it doesn't
• 1:42:53
  say years, it's like a period of seven cycles
• 1:42:56
  that this will happen to him and he'll be driven
• 1:42:59
  out into the wilderness. And Daniel laments because
• 1:43:04
  he's like, so that's gonna happen to you, Nebuchadnezzar.
• 1:43:09
  And so it does happen to him. But what it says
• 1:43:14
  there is that in the dream, He hears from the
• 1:43:18
  Watchers and the Watchers were a part of a council
• 1:43:22
  that made this decision and played it out. So
• 1:43:28
  in Daniel 4, it describes these Watcher beings,
• 1:43:32
  the sons of God, whose purpose it was to take
• 1:43:38
  human sin and create a judgment for it and enact
• 1:43:44
  that judgment. That's not just like, but that's
• 1:43:48
  the thing is like, that's the only place that
• 1:43:50
  I can find that is Daniel 4. That language, but
• 1:43:53
  we see those, that same situation happen multiple
• 1:43:56
  times throughout scripture. Yeah, it just doesn't
• 1:43:58
  name it specifically The Watchers. But in Daniel
• 1:44:01
  4 it does. And so we see that all over scripture
• 1:44:04
  though where it's like, it doesn't necessarily
• 1:44:06
  say exactly the same thing every single time.
• 1:44:09
  It references how this is played out. This person
• 1:44:12
  did this, this happened to them. But there are
• 1:44:16
  places in the scriptures where it goes, hey,
• 1:44:19
  this is who does it. And then you see more of
• 1:44:23
  that played out in things like Enoch 1 and stuff
• 1:44:26
  like that. But I feel like that's really important
• 1:44:28
  to mention is like the Watchers mention Enoch
• 1:44:31
  1 relating to the sons of God and their purpose.
• 1:44:37
  It's something that shows up in Daniel and it
• 1:44:41
  tells you what their purpose is. It's to watch
• 1:44:45
  over the earth. And so the funny thing about
• 1:44:48
  that is that's a whole different episode. I want
• 1:44:52
  to get into it. But I do want to say so bad,
• 1:44:55
  but I would say to kind of kind of tie this all
• 1:44:59
  in. Made for the devil and his angels. Yeah.
• 1:45:03
  Was it like to tie all this in? Which devil?
• 1:45:06
  I think there's people. I think there's a lot
• 1:45:10
  of people when they hear this. and they may have
• 1:45:13
  already turned it off. But it's like, okay, hopefully
• 1:45:16
  you're still here if you are. Awesome, glad you're
• 1:45:18
  here still. The question that I hear a lot with
• 1:45:22
  this conversation specifically, because it's
• 1:45:24
  weird and because it's new, it's not part of
• 1:45:28
  our evangelical tradition. It's not? I'm just
• 1:45:32
  kidding. What? I was like, where are you going?
• 1:45:35
  I need to go there. But so it's like, okay, so
• 1:45:38
  that makes us immediately Say like oh, it's not
• 1:45:42
  right or like this is wrong. It's like you maybe
• 1:45:44
  yeah But let's just look at the through lines
• 1:45:47
  and let's see like what is scripture actually
• 1:45:50
  saying? Yeah, what is actually revealing and
• 1:45:52
  I believe what we're saying is is is Respectful
• 1:45:56
  to what the text is saying. Absolutely. Um, but
• 1:45:59
  the bigger question all this is like, okay But
• 1:46:01
  why who cares? Why do we even why we care about
• 1:46:03
  this sure and you kind of answered this question
• 1:46:05
  already? I just wanted to make it very clear
• 1:46:07
  and like very out front of like let's answer
• 1:46:09
  that question and it's like well why is it important
• 1:46:12
  well because we see these things talked about
• 1:46:15
  hell for example yeah and it's like well what
• 1:46:17
  is it talking about and it's like okay that's
• 1:46:19
  it sounds harsh yeah but why is it that harsh
• 1:46:23
  and it's like and who's supposed to go there
• 1:46:25
  and why are they supposed to go there yeah and
• 1:46:27
  it's like okay so we know there are the three
• 1:46:30
  we'll say levels for like three places sure And
• 1:46:34
  we can see in scripture, and then also in Enoch
• 1:46:37
  and other literature, this is how it's described,
• 1:46:40
  and this is why it was put in place. And it's
• 1:46:43
  like, oh, it actually doesn't seem, it's still
• 1:46:46
  harsh, but it makes sense now. At least to me,
• 1:46:49
  it's like when I see that, it's like that adds
• 1:46:50
  clarity. And I think it doesn't change who God
• 1:46:54
  is, it just reveals more about who He is, and
• 1:46:58
  why He does what He does. the grace to have order.
• 1:47:06
  So there's a lot of the grace of God is creating
• 1:47:11
  order even in judgment. Absolutely, well that's
• 1:47:15
  God's, He is who He is, and what it means is
• 1:47:19
  He is justice, but He's also grace. He's also
• 1:47:23
  mercy. And it's like, well how do we see that?
• 1:47:25
  We see His justice, His judgment, and then He's
• 1:47:28
  like, there's a really bad place where I don't,
• 1:47:32
  I don't, my presence is not there. And we hear,
• 1:47:35
  we see from Enoch, he's like, it's really bad.
• 1:47:38
  He goes to a bad place and he says, this place
• 1:47:40
  is worse. Wait, you said something though that
• 1:47:42
  opens a whole other wormhole. Uh oh. What did
• 1:47:44
  I say? You said that my presence is not there.
• 1:47:47
  Oh yeah. That's a different discussion. That
• 1:47:50
  is a different discussion. And one I would argue
• 1:47:52
  the other side. We can, we'll skip over that
• 1:47:54
  for now. Okay. We'll skip over that for now.
• 1:47:59
  Yeah. Because I don't know that I would say that
• 1:48:02
  hell is the absence of God. Well, that's actually
• 1:48:05
  a good question, but that's not for now. It's
• 1:48:07
  a different... Let me just tie this in. Tune
• 1:48:09
  in later. Yeah. This is the rabbit holes that
• 1:48:13
  it always pulls up. I know. But it's like, okay,
• 1:48:17
  so God is saying like, this is a really bad place
• 1:48:19
  that anyone who is against me deserves to go.
• 1:48:23
  And he's righteous in doing that. He's just in
• 1:48:25
  doing that. But what he does is like, this is...
• 1:48:29
  this is the final destination for those who are
• 1:48:32
  not one of mine. But he can send everyone there
• 1:48:36
  right now and he's totally just. But what he
• 1:48:39
  doesn't say is like, no, but I want redemption.
• 1:48:42
  So let me first make a way for everyone to be
• 1:48:45
  redeemed. Let me create a holding place where
• 1:48:48
  you can be set aside until it's ready for you
• 1:48:52
  to go. And then it's like, okay, and now I'm
• 1:48:55
  gonna wait longer. And it's like, well, why does
• 1:48:58
  God allow evil to happen on the earth? Why does
• 1:49:00
  this happen? Why does this happen? It's like,
• 1:49:01
  well, he's giving you time to do it right. He's
• 1:49:04
  giving you time to be redeemed to him. But there
• 1:49:06
  are still some of those angels that are not there.
• 1:49:12
  Yeah. Some are on the earth still. It's true.
• 1:49:18
  And that's why bad things happen. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:49:25
  That's the easiest way to put it. For God to
• 1:49:28
  judge that would be for Him to judge everything
• 1:49:32
  not in line with Him, which will happen. But
• 1:49:35
  for now, it's like He's giving us the time to
• 1:49:38
  be redeemed. And that's Him showing His grace
• 1:49:40
  in judgment, in justice. Yeah, and if Daniel
• 1:49:44
  4 tells us that the Watchers were specifically,
• 1:49:49
  their task in that scenario was to enact judgment,
• 1:49:53
  upon sin on the earth then when they sinned on
• 1:50:00
  the earth judgment was enacted upon them and
• 1:50:04
  then there were some that were left on the earth
• 1:50:07
  disembodied which is a whole other thing that
• 1:50:12
  if you allow those spirits in you or near you
• 1:50:20
  or around you then That will be, there will be
• 1:50:25
  immediate judgment based on what happens when
• 1:50:28
  they are with you in your sin and rejection of
• 1:50:33
  God. So in the same way, they're still doing
• 1:50:37
  their task that they were originally designed
• 1:50:41
  for, which is kind of weird to think about. It's
• 1:50:44
  kind of weird. Yeah. But so while, and again,
• 1:50:54
  Continue to watch these episodes. Comment. Let's
• 1:50:58
  have it out in the comments. Let's have it out
• 1:51:00
  in the comments. This is a great one. Let's talk
• 1:51:02
  about it more. And mark places where you're like,
• 1:51:04
  please do a whole episode on this. Yeah. We want
• 1:51:07
  that. We want this to eventually be, hey, here's
• 1:51:12
  the question from the comment section. It's like,
• 1:51:15
  let's run off of that. I would love to do that.
• 1:51:17
  And what I will say, and I want to add this caveat
• 1:51:20
  to what I'm about to say, is I want to see the
• 1:51:23
  rebuttals, I want to see... Because I know not
• 1:51:26
  everybody agrees with what we've talked about,
• 1:51:29
  and I think that's awesome. So it's like, let
• 1:51:31
  me see it, but I want to see chapter verse with
• 1:51:34
  it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, read the Bible. Because
• 1:51:37
  I think we did a good job of like, let's show
• 1:51:40
  where we're coming from scripturally. This is
• 1:51:42
  chapter verse where I'm pulling this from. We
• 1:51:44
  also didn't get it all right. No, of course not.
• 1:51:46
  Yeah. And so correct us on that. Yeah, please.
• 1:51:49
  Because we need to grow. I see that. It's like
• 1:51:51
  let's, because I want it to be, to continue to
• 1:51:53
  be fruitful. Yeah. And it's like, I think that's
• 1:51:55
  a great way to do it. Yeah. Let's see what scripture
• 1:51:57
  has to reveal. Yeah. So Paul. Yeah. The dogs
• 1:52:02
  are safe. The dogs? The dogs are safe in heaven.
• 1:52:05
  They're good. In Abraham's bosom. Yeah. Maybe
• 1:52:09
  the dogs were the 500 that were walking around.
• 1:52:12
  That would be kind of crazy. The dogs are safe,
• 1:52:17
  but hell was made for the devil and his angels.
• 1:52:20
  Yeah. So, um, don't be a false prophet. Don't
• 1:52:25
  do that. And, uh, if you don't know Jesus, you
• 1:52:28
  should, you should go meet him. Yeah. Also comment
• 1:52:32
  below and we'll, we'll reach out and we'll have
• 1:52:35
  a conversation. Absolutely. But yeah, so, uh.
• 1:52:42
  There's so much to talk about I'm just stopping
• 1:52:44
  right now cuz I know there's so much more but
• 1:52:47
  there we're gonna keep talking There's a lot
• 1:52:49
  more to say. Are you ready? I'm ready two one