Latest / Get Curious, Not Furious / You Can't Make Me!

Transcript

You Can't Make Me! · Get Curious, Not Furious

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You love your child more than anything, and some days they drive you crazy.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Colette, a speech and language therapist, sense maker, and mom of three.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Get Curious, Not Furious.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Together let's make sense of your child and what's really happening in those moments that feel out of control.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Less reacting, more understanding.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you're ready to get curious instead of furious, keep listening.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to this week's episode.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about you can't make me.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Does this sound familiar?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: You ask your child to do something and they outright refuse.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get curious and look beneath the surface at what might really be going on in these moments.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever felt controlled by someone else and wanted to push back and say, no, I'm not doing that?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: What happened when you did push back?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: What about if you don't stand up for yourself in those moments?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: How does that leave you feeling?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I always think it's helpful for us to put ourselves in our children's shoes and go, well, what would this be like for me?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: If this was me in that moment, what would it be like?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder why do adults have the view that children must always do what they say all the time.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now I know some of you listening will think, well, yes, of course, children must always do what adults tell them to do.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're the child, we're the adult, we're the ones in charge, and they must do our will.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have a different view about that, and I'd like to challenge people's thinking around that.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that we should be push-over parents, that we let children run riot and do whatever it is they want to do, because as I've talked about before, that doesn't lead to healthy development, and that doesn't leave them in right relationship with us, where we're the ones taking a caring lead and supporting them.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: You've heard me talk, if you've listened to earlier episodes, you've heard me talk about Gordon Newfeld's concept of the alpha and the dependent.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: The alpha is the adult in the in who's in charge, taking care of, and the dependent is the child who's able to sort of rest in that care.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when we have those relationships working as they're meant to, then you've got that alpha and that dependent.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: There are different types of parenting.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's the dictator, do this or else.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's the pacifist, I'm just backing off, this is all too much.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's the peacemaker, let me step in, how can we solve this problem?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's the unpredictable parent, the one that vacillates between do this or else, and I'm out of here, I can't handle this anymore.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: The pushover, yep, just do whatever you want, darling.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: The confident leader, the helicopter parent who's always hovering.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: There are lots of different words out there to describe us as parents.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to think about how do you feel about those labels?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are they accurate?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are they helpful?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do they leave you feeling good about yourself?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Are they really triggering?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find it, you know, does it wind you up when somebody uses a label to describe how you parent?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we even need a label?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Setting all these labels aside about sort of how we are as parents, what I'm encouraging you to think about is putting less focus on the type of parent that you are and more focus on the relationship with your child and what your child needs in that moment.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can you be the answer to their attachment needs?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do that first and foremost, where does that take the relationship?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that do with this, you know, those moments where they go, you can't make me?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I recall being 13 years old, and this is probably the first time I can really, really remember standing up to my father.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was a very, uh, for want of a better word, probably obedient child, very compliant.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: At least I think I was.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: My um siblings would probably recount it a bit differently, and bearing in mind my mum died when I was eight.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I don't really know, I never remember being particularly disruptive or naughty or bad for her or her having to discipline me very much.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: My father certainly was more on the harsher end of the discipline side of things.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I used to, I loved singing, and this was something that my father was very proud of me doing, and I cringe when I tell this story, but it's it's got value.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would he would ask me to sing um in bars for American tourists.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is back in Ireland um in the early 80s, and I would have a song that I would sing, The Fields of Ath and Rye, and my father was super proud of me.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And now I can look back and I can go, yeah, of course, it was, you know, in some ways then probably really cute, a blonde, curly haired little girl singing The Fields of Ath and Rye.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And in Ireland growing up, you know, people singing in bars was just a common thing that people did.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I was happy doing this, probably loved the attention that I got, and I at that time adored my dad, so I would have done anything for him.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then I got to I want to say 12 or 13, and I was I hit that point where I was there like, no, I'm not doing this anymore.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, in hindsight, embarrassing for him.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: We were out on a family holiday, and I heard the piano player in the restaurant say, you know, Collette, come up and sing.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I froze and I dug my heels in, and I completely and utterly refused to get up and sing.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And my father was so angry with me, and it's probably the thing that moment was a defining point in our relationship because I outright defied him.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't able to make me, and that really, really shifted our relationship from then on.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I was 13 when I did that, which when I think of it now and all the time that I've spent with young children through my work, through Play Center, my own children, that's actually pretty late to be standing up to an adult and to say no.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking some of you listening have much younger children who are actually saying no.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really typical and normal and developmental for children to say, no, you can't make me, I'm not doing this.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Around the ages of, you know, two to three, children have an innate drive for autonomy to go, me do this, I do this by myself.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really, really important part of their development that I think if we encourage it and scaffold it with the right guidance, then we're setting them up to be confident, independent humans that can also rest in the care of a relationship and know that being independent doesn't mean that you actually have to take care of yourself and be lonely and isolated and keep fighting to you know make yourself heard, but actually it's you know spontaneous growth and an unfolding of development to be an autonomous human being whilst being in relationship with others.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, you might be saying, well, if I, you know, let my child do everything by themselves, then you know, things mightn't go very well.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's absolutely true.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: There are times like health and safety where we absolutely have to step in and say, No, I can't let you do that by yourself because there's a risk that you'll get hurt, or no, I can't let you help yourself to the lollies or the biscuits in the pantry when it's dinner time or bedtime or whatever it is.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: So this is not about permissive parenting.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But letting your child have the freedom to say, you can't make me or no, I'm not doing that, is a really important part of their development.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't mean that we don't set caring limits and hold a limit and deal with whatever frustration and upset comes out of that.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's how we do that that makes the difference.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So is it okay for our children to say no to us, to refuse to do what we're asking?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think absolutely yes.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: But ask yourself what's going on in their brain and nervous system when they say no?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: There might be many things.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: They simply just don't want to do what you've asked them to do.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're focused on something else, they're busy playing, they're busy doing their own thing, or they're feeling really controlled by you.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It might be just an automatic response, no.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: They might really dislike the thing that you've asked them to do.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: They might be harboring a whole bunch of resentment about something to do with their siblings, something that's happening at school.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't have yeses and they're just full of no's.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're full of foul frustration.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes out as no, you can't make me.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're likely feeling disconnected in their relationship.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the harsh one.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: They might actually just be echoing us saying no to them all the time.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: You said no to me, so I'll say no to you.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can't make me.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, is that gonna wind us up as parents?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, some of us might have the you know, maturity and the patience and the wisdom to go, ah, here we go.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's a sign that things aren't going right in my child's world.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or my child is, you know, really young and they're just in that phase of me do it, you can't make me, and we just need to find a workaround for it.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Ask yourself, what is your child need when they're saying, no, you can't make me?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Should you capitulate, give in, and let it go?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, probably not.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: But ask yourself if the request you're making is this critical?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a health and safety issue?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's not, then how can you get out of the power struggle that you've gotten into with your child?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean that you just give in.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the right thing to do is to walk away.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I've talked about that in earlier episodes when your child is all fired up, they're in their attack mode, then walking away or pausing and getting out of the power struggle is absolutely the most helpful thing to do.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean capitulating and giving in.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's a real difference between those things.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: What you need to do is learn to come alongside and go, okay, how do I get to yes in this moment?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if I can't get to yes in this moment, how do I, you know, reduce the risk of flipping my lid and getting furious and adding fuel to the fire so that you know, in the long term I get fewer of those you can't make me.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Don't remember if I've shared this story in earlier episodes.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I have, um, but my middle boy needed to get some vaccines.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, it was probably around the time of the COVID vaccines, and he you know, previously when he was younger, no problem having his jabs.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess as he got older, um, then he really refused and and didn't want to get a vaccine.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, setting aside what your beliefs are about vaccines, in our family, we are on the same page about the importance of getting vaccines, and you know, it is a health and safety issue for us.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: He was going on some travel with his dad and he needed to get some vaccines for that travel.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I held him against his will.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think what I did was absolutely fine because that moment was so stressful and for want of a better word, in that moment traumatic for both of us.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: For him, he was held against his will.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was only for not even half a minute, how however long it took for the nurse to put the needle in.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was left feeling upset and distressed.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the long-term outcome was it took a couple of years to unwind that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: It took a couple of years for him to work through his reactivity around getting vaccines.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: We had a time after that where you know, even the mention of a word vaccine in the house would send him into a complete rage, upset, distress, just this instantaneous response.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: So for him, his whole brain and nervous system was left with this awful experience about being made to do something against his will.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it left me feeling really, really terrible.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew I had some work to do and I needed to take the lead on repairing this.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: We did have to come up with some strategies.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: As I say, he was um, you know, going on some overseas travel with his dad and and had to get some vaccines, so I stayed out of that.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted him to be able to be okay with getting vaccines, so over, you know, probably the course of about a year, we just did some gradual exposure talking about vaccines, why people need them, and I, you know, very, very gently.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then there were a couple of times where you know he need was due to get some um boosters, and we made the appointment and no outright refused to come down to the doctors.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't make him, I couldn't pick him up and carry him in there.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's too big for that.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: We graded it, we made it more manageable and tolerable for him.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, okay, will you just come down with me and we'll talk to the nurse?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I promise I'm not gonna make you get the vaccine.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Okay.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we went down, we chatted to the nurse.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, we both asked him in that moment, do you want to have the vaccine?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, okay, we respect that.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know that you need to get the vaccine, we're just gonna have to work out how we're going to get it done.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: This one wasn't time critical.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know I had got medical advice, and it was okay for you know, if it took six months before he got this booster dose, that was going to be fine.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we sort of said, Okay, let's let's try again.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and we did, and then he one day we went down to the doctor's and the nurse, and he had his vaccine and he kind of looked at me and was like, Oh, I really didn't need to get so worried about that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it hurt a little bit, but it was okay.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, does that mean for him that he will always approach vaccines in the same way?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully he will he doesn't love them, and I can understand that, but he now also knows that it doesn't have to be that awful experience where he's forced to do something against his will.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, did I hold the limit of him getting the vaccine?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Did it happen in the moment that I wanted it to happen?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, it didn't, and that's where I needed to be flexible, let go of the limit in that moment, and also know that holding him against his will and making him do something was really, really, really counterproductive.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are times where it's okay for us to go when I'm in the face of our child saying, No, you can't make me, then as long as we do it from a place of caring, taking the lead, letting them know that certain things do need to be done, but that we can collaborate and come up with a solution for how it can be done in a collaborative way without anybody feeling controlled by anybody else.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: You also have to remember that for some of our children, if they've said no, and actually this applies to us as adults too, if you say no to something and then you turn around and say yes or you agree, you lose face.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so after saying no, it can be really, really, really hard to go, oh yeah, sure, okay, I'll do what you want me to do.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you know this about your child, how can you give them it out?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: How can you make it easier for them to turn that no into a yes?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, usually going sideways or approaching things from a different angle.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many things that our children say no to, and that's where our power struggles come from.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the power struggle really comes from us, their will, hitting against ours.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: We both want different things.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: This happens in relationships all the time.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Probably happens in your adult relationships, but do you force your partner to do something?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do they force you to do something?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when that happens in adult relationships, we call that abuse.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it any different with children?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm not talking about setting limits around your child's bedtime or your child's routines or going to school.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, those aren't abuse, but if you force your child to do things against their will, then just stop and ask yourself the question, why is it okay to do that with a child?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you wouldn't do that in an adult relationship.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do it with your child, how does that lead to them treating their siblings treating others?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: All these things have a knock-on effect.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got to think about what are we modeling every day in our relationship with our children and how is that impacting how they relate to others?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: For better and for worse, there will be things that you're doing that you go, oh gosh, my child is, you know, we approach problems collaboratively, and my child is able to take that out into their day with their friends and with their other adults in their world, and that's how they solve problems.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can't force your child to eat their dinner.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can't force feed them, and you never should.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you could bribe, you could barter, you could say, well, okay, eat your dinner, and then you can have, you know, more device time, or if you don't eat your dinner, you don't get that.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: But that's manipulating them.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's not actually getting them to an innate.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's them feeling threatened or seeking a reward, and that doesn't lead to the a reduction in those power struggles.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: You can't make your child fall asleep, but you could set them up for success with a with a sleep routine.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're not going to fall asleep just because you tell them to.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's a thing called counter will, the biological drive for autonomy.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Me do it, I do it by myself.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it shows up in relationships.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Our children are full of counter will.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to do the will of somebody else.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes problematic if they're stuck in counter will, also known as oppositional defiant disorder.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And now, this is a diagnostic label from the DSM 5, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is a diagnostic category that I really struggle with as a developmentalist because I don't think children are born this way.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're not born to be oppositional and defiant.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a pattern of behavior that emerges in response to what's going on in their environment and in their relationships.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pattern of angry or irritable mood, argumentative, defiant behavior, or vindictiveness that lasts at least six months.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is a label that often, you know, presents when children are coming to see us for an assessment where there's some neurodiversity or some attention differences, and often you'll have that oppositional defiant disorder label has been put forward.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't personally don't agree with it because when I see children showing up with this pattern of oppositional behavior, counter will, when you look beneath the surface, when you look at what's going on for them developmentally, when you look at what's going on in their relationships, you can see the reason beneath what's showing up as oppositional and defiant behavior.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than it being a diagnosis that they have, as a developmentalist, I really, really struggle with it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been able to work with parents who feel that their child has oppositional defiant disorder and help them unpack it and go, well, actually, let's look and see what's really going on here.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I can think for at least one of my children, there would have been a period of time where that label might have actually been under a medical model, that label would have been applied by somebody.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a developmentalist.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I look at things in the context of relationship and attachment.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when your child is full of counter will, full of that oppositional demand avoidance, refusing to do what you ask them to do, there's always something else going on from a neurodevelopmental perspective.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Their nervous system might be in fight or flight mode, and any demands are likely to trigger that sort of response of I'm not doing it.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a school recently supporting a child who's, you know, got a complex history, has extensive periods of time where uh he has not wanted to come to school, or he'll come to school and then he'll just, you know, leave and go home, and hasn't wanted to engage in his work.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he's super fortunate.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: He has teachers who have focused on their relationship, focused on the relationship with him, welcoming him there no matter what.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And now he wants to be there.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: His teacher said he's having a great start to the term, he's doing his work, and she's not seeing any of that sort of oppositional defiance, you can't make me walking away, that they were having earlier in the year because she's taken the time to put the relationship first.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I pointed that out to the teacher because that's not always how how teachers are able to relate to children.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Teachers are under huge pressure to deliver the curriculum, and taking the time to focus on the relationship and build that connection may not be what they have the luxury of doing.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: However, it does pay off in the end.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think our children who can express themselves and have a voice and say, You can't make me.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: In some ways, I think those are the children who are the lucky ones.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: They can assert their voice.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: But what about children who have communication or developmental differences that mean they can't easily say, you can't make me?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they end up using their behavior or they're overly compliant, but at what cost?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was at a school a number of months ago supporting a student, and I just happened to observe another child at the school who was having a really hard time.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: This was a child who I got the sense was non-verbal and hadn't developed words to communicate, and they were you know being supported by at least two staff members, and they were trying to go into a classroom where they, you know, weren't meant to go, and they were picked up and moved to a different space.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I again, if that child had been Bigger, or if that child, you know, somebody wasn't able to pick them up, would that actually you know what would have happened?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: That child was very clearly trying to communicate through their behavior that they didn't want to move, they were in a highly alarmed and distressed state, not able to communicate, and then an adult came along and you know picked them up and moved them.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a health and safety issue, they weren't about to, you know, hurt themselves or hurt anybody else.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And like I've said, health and safety does absolutely have to come first.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if your child has got developmental differences or their you know expressive language hasn't yet developed for them to be able to verbally say no, are they using their behavior to communicate that?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, how can you tune in, respect their communication whilst also holding the limits that you need to hold?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure we can pick up and carry our younger children and make them go places, but this isn't a long-term sustainable strategy.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: They get to a point where they're too big for you to pick up and move and make them do what you want them to do.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and just, you know, stop and ask yourself, why do adults believe that we should make children do whatever it is that we want them to do?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: There is a difference between forcefully making them do what we want them to do and guiding them to pro-social ways of being and interacting.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: When your child says, you can't make me, what does that trigger in you?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Probably something along the lines of, how dare you speak to me that way?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you amp up for a fight?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you in your head go, oh, you bet I can make you?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the one in charge here.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'll show you what I mean by being in charge.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder how you can shift your child from you can't make me to compliance if you even want to call it that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a behaviorist, so I really struggle with the word compliance.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I call it willingness, the desire in the child to want to do right by somebody else to follow the adult's lead.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, what needs to change in your relationship with your child so that you don't get that defiance and that counter will?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: What might need to change in how you communicate with them?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you get angry, you're just adding fuel to the fire.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to help.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you might need to have a do-over.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you've lost it, then you might need to come back and say, Okay, let's try that again.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: You can also ask your child to try again if they yell at you, you can't make me, I'm not doing it.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, again, reading where they're at, how escalated they are, where their nervous system is at, you might say, Ah, can you try that again?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, or can you let me know what the problem is?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: As always, it depends on the age and stage your child is at, what their language level is, whether that's it's going to be a problem-solving moment or a let's back off here, let's approach this in a different way.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: What you want to do is get curious about why they're saying, You can't make me.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe try saying nothing, not reacting, taking a different approach.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Take it as a sign that their watchdog brain is getting ready for a fight.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: If they're in this fight or flight mode, then you know their thinking brain isn't online, and you know how this will go if you keep pushing.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be a pushover either.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just back off, take the limit away, let it slide if they say you can't make me.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's knowing when to back off and knowing when to approach it differently.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are definitely times where you do want to hold the limit.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: You do need to be the adult in charge, but how you hold that limit and come alongside their feelings and make space for their frustration, that's where the change will come from.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: When your child's counter will is really, really high, it's super helpful to do some intentional play around it.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I use play as a strategy in my house all the time for supporting my children when tricky things are happening.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what does play look like when you've got that defiance going on and the lots of the you can't make me refusing to do things?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you actually step into the play mode, you let your child be the parent in charge, and you become the defiant one.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is very playful, it's safe, it's not for real, and it has a time boundary, and everyone gets to discharge some of the frustration that's built up.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Pick your timing carefully for this.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do it in the heat of the moment when everyone is escalated.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Your child will just feel like you're mocking them.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do it removed in time.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: That playing out those counter will moments is really, really powerful.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's your best strategy right in the moment, though?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Pause and think about what their need is in that moment, but also pause and think about what you need.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Often in parenting advice that's out there, we're told, you know, only focus on your child's need.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we miss a step if we're not able in those moments that we know get heightened and tricky and triggering to think about what do we need.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because in those moments of a power struggle, there's usually a conflict between what we need and what our child needs.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Pause and think about what do you need in that moment and why.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is what you're asking reasonable, realistic, essential, critical that it happens in that moment.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Don't push, force, bargain, threaten.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: That has a long-term impact on the relationship.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Think about how you want your child to relate to others, including you.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: What lifetime patterns of relationships and relating to others are you modeling for them?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can't give you one single strategy that's going to work.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what getting curious is about.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to not get furious.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you do, go back and repair, say you're sorry.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Ruptures happen all the time.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Your job is to get curious about your child and what they need in those moments where they say, You can't make me.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you're finding it hard to figure it out, then reach out and ask for help and guidance.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Reach out to somebody who can look beneath the surface, help you look beyond the behavior of your child and their defiance and their rudeness and the you can't make me, so that you can strengthen your relationship, as always staying curious about what might really be going on for them in those moments.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear what's happening in your family.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a parent in question, challenge, or concern, send me a message.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Together we can make sense of what's going on.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you found this episode helpful, please like it, share it with another parent, and follow the podcast to help grow this community.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, stay curious.