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[SUBSCRIBER BONUS] How Can Understanding Symbols Help Us in Everyday Life? · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Jung Love, where we answer questions and interpret
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: dreams from our subscriber community that we appreciate very much.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Today we have this question. I keep hearing and reading
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: that symbols are healing and transformative for people, but this
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: concept is so arbitrary to me. I need some very
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: specific and concrete examples of how a symbol can help
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: a person in the various dilemmas of life we all
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: can face. Can you please give a few examples in
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: layman's terms? And for context, they write, there are many
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: areas of my life where I am stuck, and when
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I read or hear that symbols can help, I am
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: so very interested and want to know more. But then
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: nothing specific is given to show what this really means.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's partly because you can't
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: consciously decide, I'm going to go get a symbol to
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: help me work on this thing. It kind of has
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: to just happen. And I'll give you an example that
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: comes to mind. And this is an example from a
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: podcast listener who we've gotten connected with. And in fact,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: we use one of his dreams in our book, Dreamwise.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: So this is actually an example that we discuss in
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: the book, Dreamwise. So, um, he's a performer, he's an
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: artist and the pandemic came along and it, it meant that,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: you know, he couldn't, um, you know, he couldn't perform anymore. And,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: and he was kind of down on himself and telling
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: himself he had to go get a real job. And
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: then he had this dream about a koi pond and
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: he was instructed to go and get one of the
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: koi and, uh, you know, kill it for food. And
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: when he did so, it was, it was this, just
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: a horrifying thing. And it turned into, I think an
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: injured puppy. It was very, very upsetting. And as he
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: worked on the dream, what he realized was that, you know,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Koi are raised just for their beauty. They're not a
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: food source. Although I will say that I have a
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Koi pond and, um, I would like someone to tell
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: the heron that visits my pond that they're not a
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: food source.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: That shops in your pond.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: That's right. I come down and just got one of
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: my beautiful koi going down its gullet. But, you know,
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  Speaker 2: koi are sort of known for their mystical beauty and
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: their jewel-like tones. They're so special. They're just so beautiful.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: And they're just beautiful. And the dreamer understood his dream
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: to be pointing out that beauty itself is worthwhile and
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  Speaker 2: that that is not a principle to abandon merely in
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the interest of sort of everyday survival concerns. So it was,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: it was a symbol. It was a symbol of, of
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: the need to prioritize beauty and art and music in
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: his life. And it was provided not by his conscious mind,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: but by his psyche in the image of a dream.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: It became very important to him. So he had a,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: a tattoo, you know, which tells you something about his age,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: maybe because I I've never gotten a tattoo from a dream,
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: but it's a thing that a lot of people do
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  Speaker 2: who are not approaching advanced old age like I am. Uh,
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  Speaker 2: so he has a, you know, a beautiful tattoo of
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: a coy on his arm. And it's a little bit,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, the questioner is saying like, how, how does
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: this make a difference? Because at some point you might
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: be like, Oh God, I should, what am I doing?
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: I should go get that real job. And it's like, no, no,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Remember the koi. So it kind of helps you. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: symbols are kind of a visual shorthand for a lot
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: of different complex ideas that can come together in one image.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: But they help us. They can be like a touchstone.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: So that's one way that I'm thinking of. Joseph, maybe
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: you have other thoughts.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And any of us that
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: are doing dream work find examples like that. But if
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: we want to think about it even a bit more technically,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: is that symbols are bridges and they help us bring
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: ideas together that for some reason we're not able to
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: put together by ourselves. So the great venture for Jung's
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: work is that we have a conscious attitude in the
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: ego and that there are secret unconscious insights that the
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: ego doesn't know about, your waking personality doesn't know about.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: And that there's a great effort in the psyche to
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: add in these extra insights, these extra feelings, traits, abilities,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: to make them conscious. And so there's the conundrum. How
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: do we create this relationship? Or how does the self
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: or the dream maker or God or however we imagine
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  Speaker 1: the overseeing intelligence create a relationship between the known and
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  Speaker 1: the unknown within us? And that the symbol, rises as
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: an imagistic experience to make that bridge. So for instance,
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  Speaker 1: let's just say that, well, I don't know, you're struggling
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: about getting a new job. And in the unconscious, there
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: is another attitude which has something to do with being content,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: that the unconscious is rather content, but the waking mind
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: is discontent. And those two things just can't seem to
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: come together in a particular way. And so you might
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: have a series of dreams where you find yourself in
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: a struggle and somehow the theme of the dream leads
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: you into a state of acceptance or peace or quiet.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: So we'll make up a dream. You know, in the
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: beginning of the dream, I'm in my office and I'm
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: really upset and angry and I just want to yell
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: at my boss. And I storm out of the office
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: and I get in my car and drive and I
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: find myself stopping at the roadside farm stand and I'm
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: buying a basket of peaches and all of a sudden
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  Speaker 1: the smell of the peaches makes me feel peaceful and
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: calm and if I have a peach I just know
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: that I can then tolerate going back to the office
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: with a sense of well-being. So then we might say
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: that The peach, or the farm stand, or nature itself,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: has somehow offered a symbol that, when it is mixed
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  Speaker 1: with your frustration, seems to bring you to a place
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  Speaker 1: of peace, of acceptance, of feeling adequately nurtured to go
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: on with your life. Now, the symbol of the delicious
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: peach could have many different meanings, but what we're interested
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: in is its effect. You smelled that peach, took a
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: bite out of it, thought it was the most beautiful color,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden your mood has changed. So
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  Speaker 1: that symbol there has somehow given you a feeling that
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: you could orient differently towards that aspect of your life.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: And that came from an unconscious source. Now, if we
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: were to lean into the symbol of the peach, it's
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: a sphere, it's circular, it's it's a combination of orange
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: and yellow, etc., etc., we might have many things to
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  Speaker 1: then surmise about it. And what's behind the peach is
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: the whole agricultural venture, an agrarian lifestyle, slow natural growth, etc.,
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  Speaker 1: which is full of all kinds of values that also
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: may be important to cultivate, just like cultivating a peach orchard,
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  Speaker 1: to cultivate in order to carry the obligations of your
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: life in a way that feels comfortable, maybe even slightly delicious.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: So this adding of extra information from the unconscious often
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: happens through the symbol.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I want to say another thing about symbols. I mean,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: that's a great explication, Joseph, but I'll just say also,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I think that symbols have an emotional, and you mentioned
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: this in what you were saying about the peach, but
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: but they can contain so much emotion and they express
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: something ineffable that we can't quite put into words. So,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm not a religious person in a formal sense.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: I wasn't really raised in any particular faith, but sometimes
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: some of the imagery from Christianity, well, or from any
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: religion really can just move me very deeply, whether it's
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: that I sort of, you know, find myself moved, say,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: by an image of Christ on the cross as I'm
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: driving past a Catholic church and it hits me in
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: just the right mood and I feel sort of struck
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: by something that doesn't really have words. Or, you know,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: I was in Greece at the end of last year
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: and just felt incredibly moved. I went to Delphi and
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: the museum there is just filled with just so many
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: beautiful things. But But some of the imagery, again, kind
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: of moved me deeply. There's this stone that was thought
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: to be the navel of the world. And that sort
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: of just got me all shivery and lots of other
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: things too. And I think in terms of, again, going
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: back to the specific question, how is it healing? Either
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: one of those experiences have the effect of relativizing the ego,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: reminding me that I stand in relationship to something larger.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And that is healing.
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  Speaker 1: So that's a great example of in the obligations of
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  Speaker 1: our modern life, we can fall out of touch with
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  Speaker 1: these large, mystical, even cosmic feelings and ideas. They fall
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: into the unconscious. And then we come upon a moment
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  Speaker 1: where the tour guide says, this great boulder is thought
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  Speaker 1: of as the navel of the world. And something then
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: is released, something rushes in from the unconscious and adds
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: itself to that moment and we find ourselves enhanced. And
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: that's the value of the symbol. It's not just that
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  Speaker 1: any unconscious content could pop up, but that it's a
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: specific unconscious content that the self knows will be helpful
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  Speaker 1: if you could add that in to your lived experience.
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  Speaker 1: And lo and behold, it really is.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe I'll just share one more example, because
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  Speaker 2: I appreciate the frustration of this questioner. This is, you know,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: rather mundane in a way, but it was a very,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: very powerful experience to me at the time I was
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: 19 years old. And I've told this story before on
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: the podcast, but I'd really suffered something. I had really
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: been suffering for months. Depression, loss, grief, I'm not sure
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: what you want to call it, but it was It
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: was a dark passage. And I found myself in the
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Providence train station. Providence used to have one of those
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: beautiful old train stations. I think it's still there, but
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: it's been turned into a mall or something. But I
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: was in, at that point, it was the train station.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: Because that's how long ago this was when I was 19.
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  Speaker 2: It's a pretty long time ago. But I was in
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  Speaker 2: the train station and I forget what I was doing
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: there even. I was sitting on a bench and I
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: looked up and I saw the way the light was
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: slanting in. And there was one of the, you know,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: train station has a big clock and it was, you know,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: it was around 11 o'clock. And I just thought, oh,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: it's morning. And that, you know, yes, it was morning. Factually,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: it was morning. But something about that hit me at
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: the level of the symbolic. And I knew, and I mean,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: it could make me cry now. I knew and I
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: understood at a deep level that A, everything was going
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: to be okay. And also, and this is a little trite,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: but it was true. And at some level, I really
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: received the truth of it. I was in the morning
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: of my life. I had everything to look forward to. And,
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: you know, so it was, and it was also, it
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: was a dawning of a new orientation because I would
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: say that that was That was sort of the moment
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: the depression started to lift. So it was moving, it mobilized,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: it kind of catalyzed psychic energy in a new direction.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there was a process ongoing already at that point,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: but somehow that sharpened it, brought it into focus. And
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: all these years later, and I could tell you how
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: many years, but it's many, it could make me cry.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: It still passes quickly. energy to you as you contemplate
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: it yes so sometimes i think of images as like
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: portals or doorways and then as we contemplate them like
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: unconscious libido energy becomes more accessible to the ego i
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: do want to say that jung was also interested in
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: symbols that had been somewhat curated and We know that
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: mostly through his work with alchemy and particularly symbols of transformation.
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  Speaker 1: So there are many kinds of symbols that can have
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: all kinds of effects just by observation. But Jung was
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: very interested in sequences of alchemical symbolism that had been
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: curated over time. And that he understood that by studying
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: some of these arcane symbols, it might facilitate a kind
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: of process inside of us. So there's a bit of
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: a dance between ancient symbols that we might dig into
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: and finally have an effect. And I think the more
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: individualized process is that your own self, the center of
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: the unconscious, is also giving you medicinal symbols, frankly, every night,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: if we could pay attention, to help us move along.