Latest / MyMaine Birth / 160. The Free Birth Society Scam: From Free Birth Ideology to Licensed Midwifery, Nikki returns to share some updates

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160. The Free Birth Society Scam: From Free Birth Ideology to Licensed Midwifery, Nikki returns to share some updates · MyMaine Birth

• 0:00
  Nikki: Both of my children were born unassisted.
• 0:02
  Nikki: My husband was indeed in there.
• 0:04
  Nikki: Like I had both of my children with him downstairs, and it's just very precipitous, very, very quick.
• 0:11
  Nikki: I think for me, genuinely, that is the right decision.
• 0:15
  Nikki: I was actually just having a conversation with one of my dear friends that I met through the Free Birth Society.
• 0:22
  Nikki: She's a local woman, and we connected through the Free Birth Society membership, and we have stayed very close friends.
• 0:28
  Nikki: She's currently pregnant, and she we were having the conversation that being witnessed is a very real, I don't know if I'd call it an intervention, but it is that does have an impact on the birth experience.
• 0:45
  Nikki: And we can't act like being witnessed isn't disruptive for some women.
• 0:50
  Nikki: I think for many women, they need that motherly or sisterly support, or they they want that motherly or sisterly support in birth.
• 1:00
  Nikki: I am one of the women who I really need to do it on my own.
• 1:05
  Nikki: And for me, birth is so overstimulating and so intense and so excruciating that even having someone's eyes on me, even if they're across the room completely silent, watching me, that is incredibly disruptive.
• 1:20
  Nikki: Would I still be able to have my baby with a midwife there?
• 1:23
  Nikki: Probably.
• 1:24
  Nikki: But I firmly believe for me and for many women, that's the best option.
• 1:30
  Nikki: How my beliefs have shifted in that is I believe it is very important if a woman is going to go unassisted for her to do some form of research.
• 1:46
  Nikki: I think it's going to look different for everyone.
• 1:48
  Nikki: And I don't think women necessarily need to become obstetricians or midwives to be able to have a successful unassisted birth.
• 1:58
  Nikki: But like any birth choice, it comes with risk.
• 2:02
  Nikki: And an unassisted birth comes with a different set of risks than an assisted birth does.
• 2:08
  Nikki: So while if you have a midwife there or if you birth in the hospital, you're more risking someone interrupting or complications that are happening because of someone else's disruption.
• 2:22
  Nikki: When you're going unassisted, you're risking needing help in some way, shape, or form and not really having appropriate help.
• 2:29
  Nikki: So I really do think that every family has the right to scope that out and choose what's best for them.
• 2:36
  Nikki: But it becomes very dangerous when people are choosing unassisted birth for the wrong reason.
• 2:43
  Nikki: It should not be chosen out of fear.
• 2:45
  Nikki: It needs to be, that needs to be the path someone's pursuing because they did their research and they know deep in their soul that this is the best choice for them.
• 2:59
  Angela: I'm Angela, and I'm a certified birth photographer, experienced doula, childbirth educator, and your host here on the My Main Birth podcast.
• 3:08
  Angela: This is a space where we share the real life stories of families and their unique birth experiences in the beautiful state of Maine.
• 3:16
  Angela: From our state's biggest hospitals to birth center births and home births, every birth story deserves to be heard and celebrated.
• 3:26
  Angela: Whether you're a soon-to-be mom, a seasoned mother, or simply interested in the world of birth, these episodes are for you.
• 3:34
  Angela: Hey everyone, welcome to episode 160 of My Main Birth.
• 3:39
  Angela: Today's guest is Nikki.
• 3:41
  Angela: Nikki and I first connected in the fall of 2024 when we both enrolled in what was then the Free Birth Society's Matrabirth Midwifery Institute.
• 3:51
  Angela: She shared her two powerful free birth stories and her journey from student midwife to radical birthkeeper back in episode 122.
• 3:59
  Angela: She's currently back on track with a hands-on apprenticeship, is working towards becoming a licensed CPM by the end of this year, and is back today to give us an update on what she's been up to since sharing her story with us back in August of last year.
• 4:12
  Angela: This episode is part of a series of episodes exploring the difference between the idea of free birth, which can be a perfectly fine option for many healthy women, from the ideology that was promoted by the company, the Free Birth Society.
• 4:27
  Angela: Now, I have all of the receipts for this ongoing drama with FBS in the show notes, so go check that out for more context about all of this.
• 4:36
  Angela: And if you'd like to read the blog post for this episode, you can visit mymainbirth.com.
• 4:41
  Angela: You can also connect with me over on Instagram at MyMainBirth.
• 4:45
  Angela: You can connect with Nikki via her website, bornfreefamily.com.
• 4:49
  Angela: And our closing song is by Kate Sutherland.
• 4:52
  Angela: Kate's community songs and deep nature connection work can be found over at katesutherland.ca.
• 4:58
  Angela: All right.
• 4:59
  Angela: Hey Nikki.
• 5:00
  Nikki: Hi.
• 5:01
  Angela: Welcome back to MyMain Birth.
• 5:04
  Nikki: Thank you.
• 5:04
  Angela: Yeah, it's so good to have you back on.
• 5:06
  Angela: Last time we talked was back in August of 2025.
• 5:10
  Angela: You shared your experiences with the Radical Birthkeeper School and the Match of Birth Midwifery Institute.
• 5:15
  Angela: Can you give an update on what you've been up to since then?
• 5:19
  Nikki: Yeah, of course.
• 5:20
  Nikki: First of all, thank you so much for having me back on the podcast.
• 5:22
  Nikki: I'm really happy to be back to share more of my story and my evolution.
• 5:27
  Nikki: A lot has changed for me since the last we spoke.
• 5:31
  Nikki: I think at that time I was still kind of untangling a lot of the things from just interacting in free birth society circles and just free birth in general.
• 5:45
  Nikki: At that point, I was still planning and operating as a birthkeeper or a doula supporting unassisted birth.
• 5:54
  Nikki: I was still very against licensed midwifery.
• 5:58
  Nikki: Since then, my perspective on that has shifted a little bit.
• 6:02
  Nikki: It was like one day I was still, I it was like overnight, I just had an epiphany that for me to pursue licensure would be the best way for me to serve women in my community, which is just really crazy to even still think about because it is so, so different than what I had previously believed.
• 6:33
  Nikki: So, yes, that's where I'm at right now.
• 6:35
  Nikki: I have re-entered my midwifery apprenticeship.
• 6:39
  Nikki: I'm kind of jumping right back into it in the middle because I started my journey in birth work way back in 2021 as a student midwife.
• 6:51
  Nikki: And it took me a few years.
• 6:53
  Nikki: Then I shifted into becoming a birthkeeper.
• 6:57
  Nikki: And then now here I am today, shifting back into my apprenticeship to become a CPM.
• 7:06
  Angela: So yeah.
• 7:08
  Angela: So you're pursuing your midwifery licensure over in New Hampshire and finishing your apprenticeship.
• 7:14
  Angela: What made you decide to go the licensed route?
• 7:20
  Nikki: So while I was still operating as a birthkeeper, I was encountering many women who wanted some form of medical prenatal testing, whether that be labs, ultrasounds, or just like a simple check-in to do, you know, measure their fundle height, take their blood pressure, like whatever.
• 7:41
  Nikki: People want, I find most women want to interact with the system, quote unquote, in some way, shape, or form.
• 7:48
  Nikki: There are many women who are just completely comfortable with doing none of that and following their own intuition and then having a free birth.
• 7:56
  Nikki: But yeah, I was encountering a lot of the women that I was working with personally in my community.
• 8:03
  Nikki: They wanted to work with a midwife in some way.
• 8:09
  Nikki: So, anyways, in my community, I was encountering a lot of women who wanted midwifery support in some way, shape, or form.
• 8:18
  Nikki: And so to accommodate that, to try to serve my community as best I could, I was working on building relationships to collaborate with local licensed midwives.
• 8:31
  Nikki: And there were very few that met my standards of care.
• 8:38
  Nikki: But I think specifically in my area, it's really lacking.
• 8:52
  Nikki: So there are women I could refer to two hours away or an hour and a half away, but there were very few people that I very few midwives who I felt comfortable referring to in my area.
• 9:07
  Nikki: And I was just laying in bed one night and I had an epiphany.
• 9:12
  Nikki: Why am I not being that woman?
• 9:17
  Nikki: I've already started the training.
• 9:20
  Nikki: I already have those clinical skills.
• 9:23
  Nikki: The only reason why I'm not using them is because I am anti-licensure and I have all of these beliefs built up in my head that I can't serve women in full integrity if I'm licensed.
• 9:37
  Nikki: But I'm not serving women at all right now.
• 9:40
  Nikki: And there is this huge gap in care in my geographical area.
• 9:44
  Nikki: So why am I not being the midwife that I want to see in the community?
• 9:50
  Nikki: So it took a lot for me to really untangle all of that.
• 9:54
  Nikki: And I think it was, I don't want to use the word brainwashing because that sounds really intense and a little dramatic, but it's the ideology.
• 10:02
  Angela: It's like that's what this is about.
• 10:04
  Angela: Like the idea of, you know, supporting women in that way.
• 10:07
  Angela: It's like you can still maybe support women in an undisturbed way, like as a licensed midwife.
• 10:11
  Angela: Yeah.
• 10:12
  Nikki: Yeah.
• 10:13
  Nikki: And it's it's not just the Free Birth Society.
• 10:16
  Nikki: I mean, a lot of my indoctrination came from the Free Birth Society, of course, because I was heavily involved in that space.
• 10:25
  Nikki: Uh, you know, I took a lot of their trainings, but it's also unlicensed midwives who are doing all of the medical midwifery things.
• 10:34
  Nikki: Those women are also very anti-licensure.
• 10:37
  Nikki: And in so many ways, I don't believe in licensure at all.
• 10:42
  Nikki: I don't believe that we should have driver's licenses.
• 10:46
  Nikki: I don't believe that we should have fishing licenses.
• 10:48
  Nikki: I really do firmly believe that a license is just the state taking your rights away from you and then selling them back to you.
• 10:56
  Nikki: So fundamentally, yes, that's what I believe in.
• 10:59
  Nikki: But operating in the modern world, for me, I'm not willing to go to jail to practice unlicensed midwifery, which is how I found myself becoming a birthkeeper.
• 11:10
  Nikki: That's why I got so heavily involved in the Free Birth Society, because they sold me this dream, this idea that I could be a midwife without the license and I could serve women, and I could, you know, I could do this work without having to like sell my soul to the state or compromise my beliefs in any way.
• 11:32
  Nikki: And throughout the years, I just realized that I wasn't willing to practice midwifery unlicensed because in the state where I live, it's very serious.
• 11:44
  Nikki: And even around the country, I have seen traditional unlicensed midwives.
• 11:51
  Nikki: I've seen this witch hunt, and they are being targeted by the state and by their peers of other licensed midwives.
• 12:01
  Nikki: So it's it's pretty hostile out there in certain areas.
• 12:05
  Nikki: I know there are places like Oregon where uh licensure is voluntary, but even in Oregon, those unlicensed midwives can't carry medications.
• 12:15
  Nikki: They can't order ultrasounds.
• 12:18
  Nikki: And those are things that I was pursuing licensure to be able to do.
• 12:22
  Nikki: So yeah, it just took me a long time to really.
• 12:27
  Nikki: I really had to ask myself, why am I resisting licensure so much?
• 12:33
  Nikki: Is it really that important?
• 12:35
  Nikki: So, so yeah, that was just a big thing that I had been contending with.
• 12:41
  Nikki: And ultimately, of course, I decided to re-enter my apprenticeship.
• 12:45
  Nikki: It happened so yeah, it was just so interesting, the divine timing or whatever you want to call it.
• 12:55
  Nikki: I made that decision to pursue my midwifery apprenticeship again.
• 13:02
  Nikki: I told maybe one or two of my friends.
• 13:05
  Nikki: And then somehow this news got over to a doula student midwife friend of mine.
• 13:13
  Nikki: And within the week, she presented an opportunity with me to train at a high-volume birth center.
• 13:21
  Nikki: So now I'm on track to be able to sit for my exam and hopefully become licensed by the end of the year.
• 13:26
  Nikki: So the path just unfolded so effortlessly for me.
• 13:30
  Nikki: And throughout this journey though thus far, I haven't really wavered in my conviction that this is the right path for me.
• 13:38
  Nikki: I feel really confident.
• 13:39
  Nikki: I feel really good about my decision.
• 13:44
  Angela: Yeah, there's yeah, so much there.
• 13:47
  Angela: I mean, in my episode with Marion, we touched on the importance of an in-person apprenticeship before going into a community and calling yourself a midwife.
• 13:56
  Angela: I know, like here in Maine, there are people who are going out and calling themselves midwives, and they're really just doulas, they have no training, and they're like kind of showing up as these medical midwives.
• 14:05
  Angela: And like after being inside the FPS world and now training in a more structured apprenticeship, like what differences stand out to you between the just go out and do it model like of the Free Birth Society and your current hands-on apprenticeship-based training?
• 14:20
  Nikki: Yeah, it's actually it's been really humbling and very eye-opening.
• 14:26
  Nikki: Uh as I shared before, I did start in a hands-on apprenticeship.
• 14:31
  Nikki: That's where I started my journey, and then I kind of fell out of that.
• 14:35
  Nikki: But even since re-entering my current apprenticeship, I my eyes have really been opened to all of the things I didn't know.
• 14:46
  Nikki: And I don't know, I I felt I think when I left my first apprenticeship and started pursuing becoming a birthkeeper, I think I was pretty arrogant.
• 15:01
  Nikki: And I was just a little overly confident.
• 15:06
  Nikki: And I did have real skills, but also in the in the way of a birthkeeper, I wasn't going to use those skills.
• 15:12
  Nikki: I was vowing to the families I'm working with in written contracts that I'm not gonna take their blood pressure, I'm not gonna listen to heart tones.
• 15:23
  Nikki: If anything goes awry, we're going to the hospital.
• 15:28
  Nikki: And now that I'm stepping into my apprenticeship again, the midwives I'm training with, they are really teaching me so much.
• 15:39
  Nikki: It's like every day when I go into clinic, every day when I go into a birth, they are teaching me so much.
• 15:45
  Nikki: I really entered my apprenticeship again thinking that I was just going to go through the motions and do the thing to get the piece of paper so I won't go to jail and then I can practice however I want.
• 15:56
  Nikki: That's really how I walked into this apprenticeship.
• 15:59
  Nikki: And that has been so far from the truth.
• 16:03
  Nikki: I've really been so happy with all of the things I'm learning.
• 16:08
  Nikki: And yeah, I think so many of my foundational beliefs of physiologic birth and undisturbed birth are still there.
• 16:19
  Nikki: And even though I'm working in the birth center setting, I still really, my heart is with home birth because I do think once you leave the home, you are disrupting the birth process.
• 16:32
  Nikki: So so many of those things are still there for me.
• 16:35
  Nikki: But yeah, I'm just learning a lot of hands-on skills.
• 16:40
  Nikki: I am committing myself to doing more research, to going through textbooks, into really dedicating myself to learning all of these things and just yeah, having what I'm learning in my hands-on experience with these midwives, I'm really bolstering it with textbooks, which is something that I wasn't really doing the first time around.
• 17:08
  Angela: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 17:09
  Angela: That's that's so great to hear like how your journey has come since then and that you're gonna possibly be licensed by the end of the year.
• 17:17
  Angela: That's that's amazing.
• 17:18
  Angela: Your perspective has shifted, like, you know, like you said, quite a bit since our last conversation.
• 17:23
  Angela: What's changed in how you see birth, midwifery, and the free birth movement, just kind of as a whole?
• 17:30
  Nikki: Yeah.
• 17:30
  Nikki: So I both of my children were born unassisted.
• 17:35
  Nikki: My husband wasn't even there.
• 17:37
  Nikki: Like I had both of my children with him downstairs, and it's just very precipitous, very, very quick.
• 17:43
  Nikki: I think for me, genuinely, that is the right decision.
• 17:48
  Nikki: I was actually just having a conversation with one of my dear friends that I met through the Free Birth Society.
• 17:54
  Nikki: She's a local woman, and we connected through the Free Birth Society membership, and we have stayed very close friends.
• 18:00
  Nikki: She's currently pregnant, and she we were having the conversation that being witnessed is a very real, I don't know if I'd call it an intervention, but it is that does have an impact on the birth experience.
• 18:17
  Nikki: And we can't act like being witnessed isn't disruptive for some women.
• 18:22
  Nikki: I think for many women, they need that motherly or sisterly support, or they they want that motherly or sisterly support in birth.
• 18:32
  Nikki: I am one of the women who I really need to do it on my own.
• 18:38
  Nikki: And for me, birth is so overstimulating and so intense and so excruciating that even having someone's eyes on me, even if they're across the room completely silent, watching me, that is incredibly disruptive.
• 18:52
  Nikki: Would I still be able to have my baby with a midwife there?
• 18:55
  Nikki: Probably.
• 18:56
  Nikki: But I firmly believe for me and for many women, that's the best option.
• 19:02
  Nikki: How my beliefs have shifted in that is I believe it is very important if a woman is going to go unassisted for her to do some form of research.
• 19:18
  Nikki: I think it's going to look different for everyone.
• 19:20
  Nikki: And I don't think women necessarily need to become obstetricians or midwives to be able to have a successful unassisted birth.
• 19:30
  Nikki: But like any birth choice, it comes with risk.
• 19:34
  Nikki: And an unassisted birth comes with a different set of risks than an assisted birth does.
• 19:41
  Nikki: So while if you have a midwife there or if you birth in the hospital, you're more risking someone interrupting or complications that are happening because of someone else's disruption.
• 19:54
  Nikki: When you're going unassisted, you're risking needing help in some way, shape, or form and not really having appropriate help.
• 20:02
  Nikki: So I really do think that every family has the right to scope that out and choose what's best for them.
• 20:08
  Nikki: But it becomes very dangerous when people are choosing unassisted birth for the wrong reason.
• 20:15
  Nikki: It should not be chosen out of fear.
• 20:18
  Nikki: It needs to be, that needs to be the path someone's pursuing because they did their research and they know deep in their soul that this is the best choice for them.
• 20:30
  Nikki: So yeah, I think that's where my belief has shifted a lot.
• 20:34
  Nikki: Another thing that has shifted for me is the importance in prenatal care.
• 20:42
  Nikki: And that's not gonna necessarily need to look super medical for everybody.
• 20:48
  Nikki: Like I don't think taking your blood pressure every other week is all that important for most women, but I'm really seeing the effects of women who are living a sedentary lifestyle or women who are eating a very unhealthy diet that's void of the essential nutrients.
• 21:08
  Nikki: I'm seeing the impact of that on pregnancy, birth, and the health of the baby.
• 21:16
  Nikki: So I think those things are incredibly important for women to be physically fit, active, exercising, eating a robust, nutrient-dense diet.
• 21:27
  Nikki: Those things are so important.
• 21:28
  Nikki: But even with that, there are some things genetically that maybe we can't overcome with good health.
• 21:39
  Nikki: So there's just so much we don't know.
• 21:41
  Nikki: So I think that maybe some prenatal testing can really help women make the decision whether or not it's a good idea to go unassisted or not.
• 21:52
  Angela: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:54
  Angela: So after seeing like both sides, what do you wish more women understood about prevalence?
• 21:59
  Angela: Preparation, risk, and support in birth.
• 22:04
  Nikki: Yeah, I think birth preparation is so important, and I've actually always held that opinion.
• 22:10
  Nikki: I think many families go into pregnancy and birth without really knowing much about it.
• 22:21
  Nikki: I think I really wish that more women would start that research before they even become pregnant.
• 22:34
  Nikki: You know, I always I have a birth prep course and I always tell people like when you are starting to think about conceiving, start the research then because I think there's so much nutritionally and health-wise that it's there are so many things that are really important for us to start maybe even a year before conception to really set the foundation for a healthy pregnancy and birth.
• 23:00
  Nikki: I don't necessarily think that women need to know everything about birth and all of the possible complications.
• 23:08
  Nikki: I actually think sometimes too much information can be a bad thing and can make women really anxious and fearful.
• 23:14
  Nikki: I was actually just talking with a woman yesterday in a prenatal appointment where she was sharing with us that she did the birth.
• 23:23
  Nikki: It wasn't my birth um prep program.
• 23:26
  Nikki: So I don't know exactly what she was learning, but she did a childbirth education class.
• 23:33
  Nikki: And I think there were a lot of visuals of like what happens on the inside, like the shrinking of the uterus or the growing of the uterus.
• 23:42
  Nikki: And I think they might have watched some natural birth videos, and I think that made her very, very anxious.
• 23:49
  Nikki: So for some people, they watch those things and it empowers them and they they like to know what's going on or they like to know what's going to happen.
• 23:57
  Nikki: But for her, knowing that was giving her a lot of anxiety.
• 24:06
  Nikki: So I think the birth preparation is going to look differently for everyone.
• 24:11
  Angela: Yeah, definitely.
• 24:13
  Angela: You're drawn to free birth, like you said, for a reason.
• 24:16
  Angela: What parts of like the idea of free birth still feel valuable and true to you?
• 24:20
  Angela: And where do you feel the ideology went too far?
• 24:24
  Nikki: Yeah.
• 24:24
  Nikki: I think the biggest issue with the free birth society was the lack of nuance and just kind of selling this idea that free birth is for everyone and anyone can have a successful free birth.
• 24:38
  Nikki: And then I think in that particular community, when they started to see a lot of complications and a lot of death, they kind of flipped it as, well, death's normal and everything's a variation of normal and in that sort of perspective on it.
• 24:54
  Nikki: And I don't think that's a healthy perspective to have.
• 24:58
  Nikki: Yes, stillbirth happens.
• 24:59
  Nikki: Yes, sometimes babies die, but I don't think that should be the norm.
• 25:03
  Nikki: And in my experience, supporting almost a hundred women in birth, that has not been my experience.
• 25:11
  Nikki: I have only experienced one infant loss, and I've never experienced a stillbirth.
• 25:20
  Nikki: But of course, with the bulk of those births, there were prenatal care, and we were kind of um supporting women in that way.
• 25:30
  Nikki: So we could anticipate if something like that were to happen.
• 25:34
  Nikki: I I think there's so much value in unassisted birth and free birth, though.
• 25:40
  Nikki: I think there, I think one of the most important lessons that the free birth movement has for women is to take control of their health and their wellness, their pregnancy and their birth.
• 25:57
  Nikki: You can do that with the support of a birthkeeper or a doula or a midwife or a doctor.
• 26:02
  Nikki: You don't that's where I think it kind of fell off.
• 26:05
  Nikki: I think where it falls off is this idea that women have to take complete 100% responsibility for everything.
• 26:18
  Nikki: And it's a bad thing to outsource.
• 26:21
  Nikki: That they use that word, outsourcing.
• 26:24
  Nikki: And I remember having a conversation with my best friend when I was still very deep in the free birth ideology, where she said, you know, it's impossible for you to be an expert in everything.
• 26:36
  Nikki: You can go to a specialist, that's what they're here for.
• 26:40
  Nikki: That's you can seek help and support from people who have dedicated their life to training in this one specific thing.
• 26:53
  Nikki: That's the expert in that.
• 26:55
  Nikki: It's impossible for me to be an expert in everything.
• 26:58
  Nikki: And of course, you know, I know myself best and I know my children best.
• 27:01
  Nikki: But I think if we can have a healthy collaborative relationship with providers, I think that's the best way to approach it.
• 27:11
  Angela: Yeah, definitely.
• 27:12
  Angela: So for you and moving forward into your career as a licensed midwife, do you see a healthy middle path emerging, like one that honors the desire for undisturbed birth while also providing skilled support when things get complex?
• 27:27
  Nikki: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 27:28
  Nikki: And that's really what I'm trying to achieve as a midwife.
• 27:32
  Nikki: And through my apprenticeship right now, I'm trying to stay firmly grounded in that respect for physiologic and undisturbed birth.
• 27:42
  Nikki: Of course, I don't think we can achieve that totally 100% of the time.
• 27:47
  Nikki: Especially, you know, I was I was saying before about the importance of physical fitness and health.
• 27:55
  Nikki: I think for some groups of women, there are going to be complications that warrant intervention.
• 28:06
  Nikki: So in those cases, and it's if that's what the woman wants, she's hiring a team of midwives.
• 28:13
  Nikki: So if anything goes wrong, that will interfere and help her and her baby in any way we can, or transfer her to the hospital if we're in over our heads.
• 28:23
  Nikki: That's what these women are hiring us for.
• 28:26
  Nikki: So we already have this agreement beforehand that if we see any of these things, we're going to intervene.
• 28:34
  Nikki: So I think having that clear, open communication.
• 28:38
  Nikki: So our expectations are aligned is really important.
• 28:41
  Nikki: And, you know, for some women, they might want us to hang back a little bit more.
• 28:53
  Nikki: So I think it's really just finding that perfect, just meeting in the middle and really having that open and clear communication so we know what the family is expecting from us.
• 29:08
  Angela: Looking at the broader birth world, like you mentioned before, like someone should never choose free birth out of trauma from a fear-based perspective.
• 29:16
  Angela: But so, like looking at like hospital trauma and the swing towards like the extreme FBS culture of free birth or bust, like basically as a trauma response, and the current state of midwifery, like what gives you hope and what still concerns you?
• 29:31
  Nikki: Yeah, I am seeing a lot of young midwives stepping into this role with a very different perspective than maybe some of the older midwives.
• 29:46
  Nikki: And it's actually interesting.
• 29:47
  Nikki: I I have been studying a lot of the history of midwifery, and it seems like when the midwifery, when the resurgence of midwifery in the 80s and the 90s, it seems like those midwives were more hands-off and definitely less medical.
• 30:08
  Nikki: And then I think uh midwifery almost turned into a branch of obstetrics, and I think with a lot of what I think happened is I think that midwives wanted to be respected by their peers in the medical community.
• 30:30
  Nikki: And maybe even that is an issue in and of itself.
• 30:32
  Nikki: Like maybe we aren't peers, maybe obstetricians and doctors are over here.
• 30:38
  Nikki: Midwives are a completely separate thing.
• 30:40
  Nikki: Like I almost feel like doulas are more my peers than obstetricians, but I think midwives wanted to be respected.
• 30:52
  Nikki: What was happening was midwives would transfer to the hospital when they needed a higher level of care for the women they were working with, and uh doctors weren't accepting their transfers, they were being treated like they they were being reported to the state.
• 31:15
  Nikki: And they they midwives were in many areas were really, really being attacked.
• 31:21
  Nikki: So they pushed to pursue legislation, licensure, and all of these things as a protective measure.
• 31:31
  Nikki: They wanted to be able to accept insurance, so families didn't have to pay $5,000 or however much out of pocket.
• 31:41
  Nikki: They wanted midwifery care to be accessible, they wanted to have basic respect.
• 31:46
  Nikki: And I think we are achieving that in many areas.
• 31:50
  Nikki: I'm sure it's still pretty bad in some parts of the world, but I think midwives sold out a little too much.
• 31:59
  Nikki: So with all of this government oversight, midwifery has become very, very medical.
• 32:05
  Nikki: And I think even just the intersection between nurse midwives and community midwives, like the hospital-based midwives versus the community-based midwives, like I'm seeing them practice very, very differently.
• 32:22
  Nikki: And it's almost like it's almost hard to call some CNMs midwives because I do feel like it's just they're practicing very differently.
• 32:32
  Nikki: Like, yes, it is midwifery in some ways, but it's it's very different than the community-based midwifery.
• 32:38
  Nikki: So I've seen it become so medical, but I'm also seeing a new wave of midwives coming in that want to get back to the roots of midwifery and to really serve families.
• 32:53
  Nikki: And it has been, and you know, I'm part of that too.
• 32:56
  Nikki: So it's it's such an honor to be part of this resurgence of true traditional midwifery.
• 33:02
  Nikki: And of course, it's going to look different in 2026 than it did in 1980 or than it did in biblical times, right?
• 33:10
  Nikki: Like it's going to look different as the world evolves.
• 33:14
  Nikki: But I think we are able to provide true woman-centered care.
• 33:22
  Nikki: I do think that maybe we need to tweak some of the legislation.
• 33:29
  Nikki: And that is something I am looking forward to after I become licensed, is maybe sitting on the board in New Hampshire and updating some of these laws that were written in 1998 that haven't been updated since then.
• 33:44
  Nikki: I mean, that's the year I was born.
• 33:47
  Nikki: That's crazy that we're not updating these things.
• 33:50
  Nikki: And I'm sure there are many states.
• 33:52
  Nikki: I'm not super well versed in the legislation on midwifery in every state, but there are so many areas that we just need, we need to update some of these laws.
• 34:04
  Nikki: And I do think they're, I think we're we should be able to make midwifery care more accessible without having this domineering state overreach controlling how midwives practice.
• 34:19
  Nikki: So, you know, I'm not saying it's going to be easy.
• 34:22
  Nikki: I think it's a very complicated, complex issue.
• 34:25
  Nikki: But I would really love to see midwives all across the country working together to achieve this goal.
• 34:33
  Nikki: Uh there has been this very like dramatic kind of caddy clickiness within midwifery.
• 34:41
  Nikki: And I I saw that in nursing as well.
• 34:44
  Nikki: And and I think I would really hope to see some of that break down so we can support each other and uh, you know, improve the quality of midwifery care and instead of focusing so much on the differences in the way we practice, just really bolstering each other up, sharing information, and changing some laws to make so we can work in the full scope of our knowledge and expertise.
• 35:21
  Angela: Yeah, definitely.
• 35:22
  Angela: Like Nathan Riley says, I think often in his things, you know, midwives need to stop fighting each other for things to change, you know.
• 35:29
  Angela: Yeah.
• 35:30
  unknown: Yeah.
• 35:30
  Nikki: And I think I, you know, I'm glad you brought up Nathan Riley because he's an obstetrician.
• 35:33
  Nikki: And I think, you know, I kind of mentioned earlier the intersection between CNMs and CPMs.
• 35:40
  Nikki: And I think you I want to reel that back in a little bit more because I think we can also get caught up on the letters behind someone's name.
• 35:49
  Nikki: And we do have so many amazing obstetricians who are collaborating with midwives like Dr.
• 35:59
  Nikki: Stu and like Nathan Riley.
• 36:02
  Nikki: And, you know, they don't have CPM behind their, you know, they're, they're, they're different than us.
• 36:08
  Nikki: But I think it's really important to collaborate with doctors to a certain extent and, you know, to embrace our differences and to work complementary.
• 36:19
  Nikki: And I've also worked with some CNMs that were wonderful, and I didn't find them to be overly medical and off-putting.
• 36:28
  Nikki: And I'm sure there are some CPMs in my community.
• 36:29
  Nikki: I mean, there are some CPMs in my community that I think are really, really over medical.
• 36:36
  Nikki: So yeah, it doesn't really matter what letters are behind your name.
• 36:40
  Nikki: Yeah, I would just love to see more of a collaborative environment in the entire birth space.
• 36:48
  Angela: Yeah, it's so important.
• 36:50
  Angela: I totally agree.
• 36:51
  Angela: As a final question, for women listening who are still processing their experience with the Free Birth Society, what advice would you give as we all continue to move forward from that?
• 37:04
  Nikki: Keep an open mind.
• 37:05
  Nikki: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
• 37:09
  Nikki: There was so much wisdom in the Free Birth Society and in this free birth movement, and there still is.
• 37:18
  Nikki: So just because many of us have a bad taste in our mouth because Emily Nyolanda produced these programs that were fraudulent, they still had a lot of wisdom.
• 37:29
  Nikki: Yes, maybe some of that wisdom was taken from other women.
• 37:33
  Nikki: So maybe we can defer back to women like Sister Morningstar and Wapio, where this information kind of originated.
• 37:40
  Nikki: Maybe we can shift our attention to those women because I do feel like those women have more of the full picture and are very much more nuanced.
• 37:48
  Nikki: But yeah, just be open to receiving new information, especially for women who are looking to pursue birth work in any way, shape, or form.
• 38:01
  Nikki: I think it's very important to keep an open mind and to keep learning, explore different textbooks, and explore different programs, do your due diligence, you know, really uh research these things to make sure that the information you're getting is high-quality information, but really just try to get a well-rounded education, especially for women who are wanting to do birth support either as a doula or a midwife or a birthkeeper, an in-person apprenticeship is mandatory.
• 38:40
  Nikki: It is impossible to do this work without shadowing somebody.
• 38:46
  Nikki: Obviously, as a doula, you know, it's not going to be four years long, but I even think doulas should attend a few births, shadowing either with a midwife or with a senior doula.
• 38:59
  Nikki: Attending births in hospital, freestanding birth center, at home, I think all birth workers should really, really do that.
• 39:12
  Angela: Yeah, that's definitely so important because and and also on the flip side, for women who are choosing some support, even if it's a licensed midwife, you know, to really just go and interview as many as you can in your, you know, area to see who you vibe with and also to ask a lot of questions about their experience and like, you know, how they might show up to your birth.
• 39:34
  Angela: Just to do your due diligence for yeah, who you want at your birth.
• 39:38
  Angela: It's a big decision.
• 39:39
  Nikki: Absolutely.
• 39:40
  Nikki: And I mean, even with CPMs, it really is just a piece of paper.
• 39:45
  Nikki: Yes, they had to attend a certain number of births and they had to do a certain amount of prenatal appointments and a certain amount of newborn exams.
• 39:54
  Nikki: And, you know, maybe they had to go to school or whatever path to become, you know, there's different paths to become a CPM, but none of that is really enough.
• 40:05
  Nikki: I find most student midwives are going to do at least three times the amount of births that they need, but maybe not all.
• 40:13
  Nikki: So, yes, knowing the right interview questions to ask and reaching out to the community and seeing what their experiences are, I really do think it's such a big decision who is going to attend someone's birth.
• 40:30
  Nikki: Absolutely.
• 40:31
  Angela: Now, do you want to share anything about your birth course?
• 40:34
  Nikki: Yeah, so I have a program called the Knowledge's Power Birth Prep Course.
• 40:38
  Nikki: I am actually in the middle of revamping it.
• 40:42
  Nikki: So I just redid all of the text for the course.
• 40:47
  Nikki: So there is, I and I really I amped it up a lot.
• 40:51
  Nikki: I added a ton of new information in it, but I tried to organize it so it's not too overwhelming, and people can just pick what section they're interested in learning about.
• 41:02
  Nikki: But right now I am in the middle of redoing the videos as well.
• 41:06
  Nikki: So hopefully by the end of the year, that will also be launched in its new form with better video quality, better sound quality, and more information.
• 41:16
  Nikki: And all of that is on my website, bornfreefamily.com.
• 41:22
  Angela: Amazing.
• 41:22
  Angela: I will link all of your contact info in the show notes for anyone that wants to check that out.
• 41:27
  Angela: And yeah, thank you so much, Nikki, for joining me again and yeah, sharing what you've been up to.
• 41:32
  Nikki: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Angela.
• 41:34
  Nikki: It's always a pleasure.
• 41:42
  Kate Sutherland: Follow the walk of the wild ones into the woods and the darkness.
• 41:47
  Kate Sutherland: Rebirth the ways of the ancient ones whose tracks were washed away in blood.
• 41:52
  Kate Sutherland: It falls to us now to open up and taste beyond what we prepared.
• 41:57
  Kate Sutherland: Take up the phoenix fire, cleansing, change to life.
• 42:01
  Kate Sutherland: Follow the walk of the walk onto the woods and the darkness.
• 42:08
  Kate Sutherland: We went away from the ancient ones.
• 42:11
  Kate Sutherland: Take up the feet cleansing, change to like the plants.
• 42:23
  Kate Sutherland: Step by step through the unknown, all me on the line in the open mind.
• 42:29
  Kate Sutherland: In darkness, let alone like the way to feed the soil of changing times.
• 42:34
  Kate Sutherland: Step by step through the unknown, all we are in the open mind.
• 42:39
  Kate Sutherland: In darkness, I love like the way to feed the soil of changing times, all of the water of the wild ones, and two words and the darkness, we both aways of the age of the ones, six tracks were washed away.
• 42:55
  Kate Sutherland: Step by step through the unknown, I'll be on the lighting of the mind.
• 43:11
  Kate Sutherland: In the darkness, let love light away.
• 43:14
  Kate Sutherland: To feel the soil of changing times, step by step through the alone, I'll be alive in mind.
• 43:22
  Kate Sutherland: In the darkness, let love like the way To feed the soil of changing times.