Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / Clothes Are a Portal to Your Power — Melanie Lippman on Style, Confidence & Personal Branding for Lawyers

Transcript

Clothes Are a Portal to Your Power — Melanie Lippman on Style, Confidence & Personal Branding for Lawyers · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, what a phenomenal conversation.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This week's guest is Melanie Lippman, a personal brand stylist and certified neurocoach who helps high-performing women, many of them lawyers, stop dressing for the role they've been in and start showing up as the women they actually are and who they want to become.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Melanie's work lives at the intersection of style, identity, and the way our brains are wired.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't just help you build a wardrobe.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: She helps you figure out who you are, what you want to be known for, and then builds a strategic, values-driven visual brand around that.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: And because she's a certified neurocoach, she goes after the stuff underneath.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: What you've been hiding from, what you've been scared of, the core wounds, the childhood messages about clothes and belonging, the identity blocks that make you spend thousands of dollars on an amazing new wardrobe and then reach for the black dress anyway.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about law schools handing out handbooks telling women what color nail polish is acceptable, what suit to wear, and how to look the part, and how the legal industry's idea of dressing professionally has always been code for erasing yourself, especially as a woman.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about what happens when you stop doing that.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because Melanie's clients aren't just leaving those conversations with better outfits.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're making partner, they're attracting higher caliber clients, they're stepping onto panels and into rooms they weren't being invited into before.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them are realizing maybe for the first time that they don't actually want what they thought they wanted.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that figuring out who you are and how you show up is the first step to getting clear on where you actually want to go.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a very real, very direct line between building your personal brand, showing up as yourself, and getting where you want to be in your career and your life.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because people can feel it when you're really in it, when you know who you are, when you're showing up in your own energy.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: That confidence isn't just internal, it's tangible, it's magnetic, and it gets you where you want to go.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is for you if you know there's more, more impact, more visibility, more of yourself that hasn't fully shown up yet, and something's been holding you back.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is an episode about personal brand, identity, and what becomes possible when you stop hiding.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love your background.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And especially so the pink in the middle is very much like my, this is my only nail.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's lovely.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So this is my this is now my your signature color color color.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: I used to have a zillion nail polish colors.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have one now.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is my signature color, it is all I wear, and it's very much like your pink in the middle, which I adore.
• 2:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is that there intentionally to be your background, or is that just how your your office is?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's now my office is, and it's funny that multiple times a day I go over there to like show an example.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So like someone will ask me, like a quiet.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: I find myself like I have like my own QVC show sometimes.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I'm with clients, I'm like, and this is how you tuck your shirt in.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And this is how you're and like, well, you should look for a blazer that goes like this.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually brilliant, and it's a it is a great design background, even though it's you know, it it may not have started out like intentionally for that purpose, but it's perfect, and it's one of these things that like I I generally think of myself, I mean, I grew up loving fashion and I actually thought I was gonna go into fashion.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um but even with that inclination, I still sometimes look at things and I'm like, what do you do with this item?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I need someone to show me?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's interesting because the majority of my clients, I would say, have some level of interest in fashion, like in some way, shape, or form.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's really more of like the refinement and also the like, let's make it a brand.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So let's make it strategic.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, I'm amazing at social media.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: However, I have I work with an agency because like I don't I don't want to throw spaghetti at the wall, and also you can't see the frame from inside the photo.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So like, um, and that's where with a client like today, this morning, she's like the CEO of a company, and she was just like, What is off with this shirt?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and she's like, I just I felt like I was fidgeting in a pitch meeting, and I know like she's like, I wore it, but like I know it could have been better.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just a refinement and a refinement.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And also, she also works at a university, so she needed to wear the university's colors.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it all it just is like we we don't color our own hair.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, I don't.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is such a good point.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many things I I've been in a process because my my law firm is growing, my other businesses are growing, and I've been in this process of recognizing I can do so many things, that doesn't mean I should be the one to do even most of those things.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what are all of the things?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: What are the few things that only I can do?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then what is everything else that someone else can do and should do instead of me?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just about like do you are are you, you know, smart enough, capable, whatever, to do the thing?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's is this really how you should be spending your time and energy?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can someone just even just from a decision fatigue standpoint, it's do you want to be the one putting your brain power into this?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you want to have someone say, here's the outfit, here's how it's supposed to sit on you, and now you can go think about other things.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: But even more so, what I would say, like my clients will come to me, yes, they like that end result, but I actually help them be more themselves.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I love it what's on the inside and I make it on the outside because they're like, oh, da da da.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, slow down.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Your expertise and your skill set is not normal.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to amplify that.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to tell people because a lot of my clients are IP attorneys, and I'm like, you look boring, and you're like actually a genius.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can we actually make you look like as sophisticated as you really are?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's that also like you like I'm like, I'm I'm the better mirror.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I okay.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love everything you just said.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get into so much more of that.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: First, I want to back up.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: How did you get into the work you do now with styling high performers?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And is it mainly lawyers or all lawyers?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mainly lawyers.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And now I think so.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting, like it was a lot significantly lawyers for a really long time.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: However, I would have people contact me and be like, but I'm a CEO, can you work with me?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm a this.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now it's basically, I guess it's women who work in male-dominated fields, but it's just like those high performing, like I always will like be like, you're a perfectionist, you're an overachiever, you're an over, over, over, over, over.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's basically who it is.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like that.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you put yourself into type A, overachieving, probably like suffer from adrenal fatigue, like you're my person.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm the girl, okay, I can totally notice you, and be like, okay, let's make this simpler because I know all of my clients overcomplicate things.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, let's just water it down and make it super simple and let's take one easy step forward.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the that's really the person.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then as far as the how I got into it, I was I've always been obsessed with fashion.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so my parents had an accessory store when I was growing up.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I quickly, when I was 10 years old, I realized if someone was wearing something that they felt good in, they could take on the world.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if they didn't, they would like not want to tie their own shoe.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so it really like clothes really do affect how we show up.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I wanted to do, I didn't even know what I was doing, is I wanted to show women that clothes can be a portal for opportunity and not a punishment.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went, it's interesting to fashion school and took all of these things, classes on fashion merchandising and how to sell more.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I worked in wholesale.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like on the other side where it was like how to create this situation to kind of sell people more things.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, and because every single thing from the fashion industry is like based on lack and scarcity of like how to look taller, how to look thinner, how to like be less you.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, no, no, that's not what clothes is.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Clothes are like how to amplify and make you feel good.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really where I wanted to like have that transition from like, no, this gets to be something that's amazing and not something that makes you feel like crap about yourself.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love everything you're saying.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I when I was growing up, for me, clothes were my armor.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: I would never have admitted myself this to myself at the time.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure how much I even understood it, but I was really insecure.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was so afraid of the world.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was afraid of mean people.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was afraid of being bullied.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was afraid of my twin sister was the one who was actually being bullied in part because she would stand up for people, but because we were twins, I thought that meant I felt it as if it was myself.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought I was being bullied, and so I was so scared to go out into the world all the time.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing that made me feel safe was I knew how to dress.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I knew about I knew what to do with the clothes, I knew what to do with the styling, I knew what to do with jewelry, I knew fashion, I knew I understood that world.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the way I could feel safe.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't about my brain or and I was, you know, good socially, but it was so much about the clothes, and I took that with me for a long time.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then law school hit, and not it was, I remember being given in law school a handbook on like this is how you dress.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I've talked about this with other lawyers, and I see your face.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Seems like you might be familiar with this concept in the 1940s, and it's said to wear pantyhose and closed-toe shoes, and like don't like wear it.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Don't wear this color nail polish, don't wear that, and also like know the judge, you probably shouldn't wear pants.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's all meant to make a woman feel like she doesn't belong in that practice.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I speak to women who are 70s and attorneys and feel this way, and women are in their 30s who are attorneys, and it's all the same message.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so interesting.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was speaking to someone, I'm like, I need to do a post of like tearing apart a law firm's like dress code because it really like you you wonder why like women leave firms and why women leave big law.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you make them from the very beginning.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: You hand them this handbook of like, here you don't belong.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how to look like a guy to be taken seriously.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so like there's so much wrong with it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then people get, and I get it, like I've because I've gotten to not like conversations with people that are like, this shouldn't matter.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I get it, it shouldn't matter.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, we are all highly judgmental.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like you all learn about in law school like bias and kind and the concept of bias, and then someone forms an opinion, and it takes seven situations of the opposite idea to affirm someone's initial bias of you.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you not working the system?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like like this is a tool that you get to use as a woman.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Guys, just get ties and socks, like use it to your advantage, and as opposed to like just fighting it, because you also can't change the rules if you're not in the room.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you teach lawyers to use the system to their advantage?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So the the cool thing about clothes is we get to be multiple people, like we don't just wear like the armor.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we want to have like signal trust and authority and and all of that, but also you're allowed to be a woman.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: The what the number one thing that I feel like I work in with my female attorneys is like how to be more feminine, like and how to be softer, because that actually in the law is your superpower, that you get to be approachable and you get to like understand that people have kids and you get to, you get to really like be yourself.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but you but you also can be both.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, and the way that we that I do this with my clients is we create safety by creating a personal brand.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not random, it's not let's just throw some spaghetti on the wall, let's try doing pink, let's try wearing green today, and maybe let's throw in a floral.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, let's get really, really specific.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: What are your values?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to be known for?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want your worship to do for you?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we create structure around it, and then you get to show up as that same person each and every day, and you start to pull on different levers for what you need to achieve, as opposed to just like, I guess I'll just try this or I'll I'll be that person today.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the structure and also the understanding of the psychology and the messages, that's how we get to do it.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not vanity, it's a tool.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that a lot of lawyers are resistant to, I mean, they've come to you because they want some help, but that doesn't mean they're like ready to dive in because there's still fears attached to all of this.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do I, what do you mean?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: How do I just start showing up like myself?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do I start wearing the things that feel more me in a world where you know those around me are wearing blah blazers and suits with no pizzazz?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I told you to ask me that question.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what was happening.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what would end up happening is someone would hire me, and this is um, and we would go and spend like$10,000 on clothes.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like literally, like we would go to Neiman Marcus, we'd spend$10,000 on amazing outfits.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'd paint the picture of who they were, and they were, I had their buy-in.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'd get a phone call two weeks later.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go speak on this panel.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: What should I wear?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you got 50 great outfits.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why are we not wearing one of those?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd get a litany of excuses.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not ready yet, or it's too edgy.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: My husband thinks I look like a blueberry, or you know what?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that the black dress is just like it's more comfortable.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just like so like they met the person and then they like sucked it back because like there's always gonna be the edge of familiar familiarity.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this happened at such a really great time in my business.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was 2020.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: We all know what happened then, COVID.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I started really investing in my own personal development and coaching.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started really like finding myself and figuring out who my authentic self was.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I started to realize that this is some of the work that my clients needed.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when I became a certified neurocoach.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like a, oh, let's go for therapy.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: But unless I rewire your brain to see yourself as to someone who can take up more space and can receive a compliment and can wear those things, you are never going to go and wear those clothes.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care how much money you spent on a hot pink suit, you are not confidently wearing it into a room unless you see yourself as the woman who deserves to get that attention.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've never heard the term neurocoach.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: That is phenomenal.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's all identity and embodiment work.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really from a place of like, and I've got trained in this, I think maybe like five years ago, and it's really about finding the core wound because it always comes from.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, you spoke about we'll take because I I wanted to go back to your middle school experience because we had a similar one.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you grow up?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: West Hartford, Connecticut.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up on the border of Queens and Long Island.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Similar sitch.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like clothing in our culture is very much used as a performative thing of like you have made it, you wear these labels, this is what you wear.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I feel like we're probably a similar age.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm 43.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like Kate Spade bag for your sleep.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Kate Spade, the the you know, the handful of tissue heart necklaces.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right, of course.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Three heart necklaces, I belong.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's these items that were used as like, you have made it, status, and all of that.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't have that, you are not part of the in-crowd.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of this always goes back to what is our major, major thing that that runs the show when it comes to everything in our life is we need to belong.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to be part of the clan.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, from 5,000 years ago, if we weren't part of the tribe, we were getting eaten by a lion.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing when it comes to clothing.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if our situations or our experiences with clothing is that we didn't belong, or um maybe your family didn't have a lot of money and you shopped at secondhand stores or you got hand-me-downs, there is a core wound.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: And let's say we didn't even speak about weight or you know, or anything like that, because there's a lot of that as well, is that if there is something that in your experience that clothing felt unsafe, unless we go back and figure out what that was, and again, not for therapy, just from like, uh-huh.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is actually the same thing.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just to know yourself, yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just to be like, oh, like my sister, I my my sister like was prettier than me, so therefore that is not my role.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not the pretty one, so I can't wear nice clothes.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So just to be like, huh, this is so interesting.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is who's been running the show.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, like I I always say to my clients, like, you didn't choose the law because someone you got a 75 and someone said, good job.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are thoroughbreds.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: You were raised in a very specific, high-performing like way.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, that personality itself is driven by uh you can't have shame, you can't do it wrong, you can't make a mistake.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the way that I actually do this with my clients is I make it fun.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because when's the last time we had fun doing something?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've been learning to have fun.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: My big part of my husband's role is has been teaching me to have fun.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I'm 37 and I'm learning how to have fun.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, which is thrilling.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, having fun is fun.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like you, I remember I was on a retreat and we had to draw something.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: I had 75 questions about what to draw.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, can you tell me like how long we're gonna get and what colors we're supposed to get?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then what are the rules?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: What are the parameters?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: What does right look like?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my god, I'm exactly like my client when I'm like, okay, I want you to go make a mess of your closet.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I'll just say, like, my rule of working with me is like you have to be okay with getting it terribly wrong.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because my favorite outfits that like I wear on stages that I wear to speak, huge law firms were came from the idea of as like, this may look ridiculous, but I'm gonna try it on.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the best outfits.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be like, okay, to like figure out who we are and have play dress up.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's why getting dressed is so hard to stop playing dress up.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about the experimenting and even like owning that this outfit might be crazy and I'm gonna go for it and then just see how it ends up feeling later on?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: How do you get yourself through that?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: You have to create safety.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't just go, it's so funny.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: One of my clients was wearing literally neutrals like her whole life, like for as long as she remembered.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And she like is like, we like so we create the safety.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we like I create a brand for you.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we create the structure, we create the strategy, we do a color analysis, you understand what colors look on you.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I give you like all the tangible things.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: But she went a little rogue one day.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, I went to the mall and I went to anthropology and I bought a rainbow dress.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she like messages me.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: She goes, I feel like a clown.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Jennifer, you can't go from wearing black every single day of your life to a rainbow dress.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: You just can't.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can't go from like, you know, never drinking to all of a sudden like having five a whole bottle of wine.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would think of it as like with working out.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't go from being a couch potato to suddenly running a marathon and thinking that's gonna go great.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: You need to go in stages.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we don't give something like clothing and style the credit of what a big deal it is and how much sort of brain involvement and comfort and safety or lack thereof is involved, and how much creativity is involved in in there, it's so much more than just clothes.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So much more than clothes.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and you you have to think of it as, or you can think of it as something that really that you could benefit by going through it in stages, baby steps, right?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And also it's it's so much more interesting and so much more rewarding.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, so so a great example is a lot of women come to me and because they've had a color analysis, so they've had an experience of like, oh, I had a color analysis and I saw what colors look good on me, and like that was really helpful, but I also got overwhelmed because someone told me that 30 colors look good on me and I don't wear color.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Yeah, of course you're overwhelmed.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like someone says, like, go try 30 new restaurants.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's not great.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we need to do is be like, what is the easiest, most exciting step forward?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a lot of what my work is is like, okay, we're creating this brand, like, and I do it from like five years from now.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like you are on your own, whatever your dream is.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's go play, whatever that is.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: How does that woman show up?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because she gets dressed from a much different energy than you are, because there's so much luck and there's so much scarcity, and there's so much like, uh, I don't know if I could pull that off, I want to lose 20 pounds, like I need to, you know, get a new client.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's all the no no, we don't play in that or you know, we go all the way up here.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: How does she show up?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we start crafting from there.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then my job is to get you small incremental steps towards that person.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's and it's your idea.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not my idea.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like let's try that.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's us, me working together, being like, okay, so we've done this.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: What are you most excited about?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: What can we try, whether it's in your closet or what can we introduce into your wardrobe that is going to have a huge impact?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then let me tell you what happens.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So one of my clients, Same woman as before, see CEO of a marketing company.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was going to um, she her, she runs these like gallas for her for her clients.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we got on a call and she literally is like, I have this thing that I'm going to next week.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just can you just I'm gonna show you what I'm wearing?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a priority, whatever.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I gave her like very two simple tweaks to the outfit that she already had.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: She went from like feeling like a schlub previously and not getting any compliments to she was in this space where people were wearing gowns and complimenting her on what she was wearing.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: She told me on today's call when I was like, okay, you're gonna think I'm crazy, but what if we did?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she goes, Melanie, the experience that I had when I made those two little tweaks, if you told me to stand on my head for 20 minutes, I would.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: So like I build the muscle, I help build the muscle of like, okay, I did that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: That was safe.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: That had a great result.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: What more can I do?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: What more can I do?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And take baby steps and baby steps and baby steps.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's why, like going and working with someone and spending like$20,000 or$10,000 in one fell swoop and like going to Nordstrom's, that never sticks.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because that is like just like here, let me sell you some stuff and you go be that person now.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, we need the brand.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: We need the iteration.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: We need to like figure out what you're doing and how do we like get there in small incremental steps.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I work with clients for three months.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like these people, like there are people in my world that do these like VIP, like whatever, like three-hour things.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's cool, but the person's gonna come back to you in six months and say, I need another one.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we need to do it in a way that like is building as opposed to drinking from a fire hose, and then you end up not liking half of the stuff.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be in a way that just feels like if you think about it, it's like the evolution, like the caterpillar becoming the butterfly.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't happen.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be very transformative.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it also needs to be your idea.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: It can't be my idea.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I could help you get there, I could walk beside you, but I can't just say here, go do this, you'll feel good.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I could show you things to do it better, but how do you help someone understand their style?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: What they actually feel good, not just the colors, that's hard enough, but really their style.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Goes back to values.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: How do you connect the values with, you know, is something more tapered, is something more tailored, is something poofy?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Are there some there's the difference is is what's flattering you versus what's the message you want to send?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's two completely different things.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, like what's flattering is a neckline or a silhouette or you know, a color that looks good on you, but the overall message that you want to send and the thing that you want to be known for, that's completely energy, the different energy.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the what am I actually like, what do I want to be known for?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And like, how do I want to be received and how do I want to feel in my clothes?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: That right there, when we paint that, when someone, when I you know, we have conversations and we figure out that, and then I introduce visuals and people start saying, like, I like this and not that, and like this is like, and it and it's interesting, we don't even have to use clothes, it's from an aesthetic.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Some of my clients like get very triggered by clothes, where we'll do like, well, just show me some like home decor that like resonates with you, so I could see like different color combinations and different textures, and then I put the context to it and we just start playing and iterating it because it's all pattern recognition.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I start showing because I speak a different language and I see things very quickly, and also because of my coaching experience, like I also understand what someone's not saying, so like and what they're avoiding, and I'm like, okay, like because I will pick up things that they're not even noticing in the pictures.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone tells me they hate florals, but the florals in the background of every single thing on Pinterest, I'm like, you don't hate floral?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because those pictures would never be there.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we we don't like something, we run in the opposite direction.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, there's so and I'll just let it sit there.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not like I'm not making it like I'm just kind of like, okay, I'm just gonna let this sit there.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then then they'll be like, I'm noticing.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, have you ever thought of like, well, since you mentioned that, I really don't like florals because my sister made fun of me when I was six years old because I wore a floral dress.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, that's interesting.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really what I help do is kind of just keep pulling things out and then also just showing like the through line and the through line and the through line.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: What are the kinds of intrinsic transformations you've witnessed from start, not even necessarily to finish, just throughout the journey?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: So things that clients have said to me that are like really that because sometimes I get like, oh, okay, and very quickly, um, going from being passed over for partner to within three months, being said, like, hey, like, do you want to come into these meetings?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to meet with this client?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because what we don't realize is that clothes are sending messages to others.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't take yourself seriously and like dress the role, people are just gonna assume that you don't want the job.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's funny how people are like, oh, we're on Zoom, I don't turn my camera on.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you are never gonna go over in your career and you may actually lose your job.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because like the effort right there is not showing that you actually want to be taken seriously and you want to be noticed.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Once you change your energy about how you're showing up, everything changes.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So things like again, like being making partner within three to six months when you've been passed over for it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Also, things like getting one of my clients as a tax attorney.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: She's told me that she actually gets like a higher caliber of client now because of how she shows up and how she presents herself.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like different, she's in different circles now than she ever was before.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Also, clients have gone from the interesting thing is I think that a lot of attorneys have very specific expertise.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're like a there's something that they become like they geek out on, whether it's now it's AI or whether it's something like that has to do with technology or whether it's a pattern patent or some some sort of law.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they really are a genius and an expert of that specific lane.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: However, there's some, they're like an introvert.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're sort of like, I just want to like put my head down and I want to do my work.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so what ends up happening is these people have no really realized that to get ahead in their career, they actually have to be like a celebrity, not in like a gross Kardashian way, but in like uh, oh, I can now go and be an expert and speak on these panels.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like people have been asking them for years and they just go, I don't want to do that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: But so now it's like, okay, I take myself seriously.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: So they have really grown their books of businesses because now the way that they're getting clients is they just speak on a panel and people just walk up to them.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: How much easier is that than going knocking on doors and saying, hey, do you need a new lawyer?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really just changed the way that they've grown and developed their business because they just start showing up differently.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then one more example is one of my clients is a litigator for a huge pharmaceutical company.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we were working on every single day what she was wearing, like and for like what needed to happen this day, that day, when it came to the trial.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so we would pick outfits out accordingly to how she wanted, you know, herself to feel and how she wanted the jury to feel and all of that.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that came out of it is she said, yes, the trial went the way that I wanted to.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: However, I realized that because of some of our choices, I was actually softened and I was more feminine and I was able to just not have such this proving energy.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to trust myself.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, like just realizing that clothes can be so transformative and how we're acting and reacting as well.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: One of the big ways that I've often thought about the impact of clothes, aside from you know, growing up and having that be the way I felt safe, I've had a lot of health problems throughout my life, now much better, but I've been very, very sensitive to fabrics and even colors.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've gone through phases where like I just I cannot wear tight clothes or loose clothes or clothes that you know cut kind of um you know go around my belly in exactly like a certain area, um just depending on how I'm feeling.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've become very sensitive to the feeling of like, oh, you're supposed to dress this way, but oh my god, that hurts.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so now I'm sitting in this room wearing the thing I'm supposed to wear, but I just want to cry.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one day in law school going back and forth between school and my apartment to change my outfit four times because I could not find something that didn't hurt.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and now I'm in a phase where I'm much healthier, still have some sensitivity around just like what feels good on me, and I'm learning or relearning how to, you know, what feels good on me as me without any sort of parameters.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I learn to wear clothes and try to not, you know, now that I feel good in my body most of the time, how do I kind of work through the, oh no, I can't wear that because that might hurt because it feels like this and it feels like I'm being choked from like a neckline like this or whatever it is.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I'm not the only one who's gone through that.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And having those kinds of health challenges, it makes it really hard to figure out well, what on earth do I wear on this day?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do I feel and how do I feel good as myself and in my body when I feel like shit, when wearing pants, you know, around my bloated belly, for example, it hurts.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do I feel good in that?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you work with clients when there's trauma, there's ongoing trauma, it's physical trauma, it's physically painful, and there's so much sensitivity around it.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just, oh, just you know, we can go through everything we talked about, which is hard enough, but there's this additional like, and there's a health thing on top of it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would say now, gone are the days of you need to suffer for beauty.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was like pre-COVID and even like before then, like there's so many options now when it comes to clothing.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many different materials, there's so many different fits, there's so many different shapes.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that one of the things that I really do with clients is we get crystal clear of like what are your boundaries and like what are you available for and what are you not?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I have clients that like never want to go to a dry cleaner.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, like let's work around that.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: But like really getting specific, like where things can be tight or where things that can be loose.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So really being able to, and a lot, and then I also have a lot of clients like that have foot problems, like that maybe at some point wore five-inch heels, or like one of my clients broke her foot, like getting out of a calf.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, they're just like, oh, everyone's got something, is what I'm trying to say.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So let's like put all the cards on the table and then I got to figure out how to do the best with what you have.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not necessarily like, okay, maybe you can't you love the idea of a high-waisted pant, but that's not gonna work for you.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: But let's figure out what about that silhouette you really like, and then find something that does work for you, and then give you the other things that are gonna make you feel sophisticated and polished and pulled together.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I love about clothes.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's so many options out there.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's figure out how to make it work for you.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because so many people come to the clothing conversation with a laundry list of what doesn't work, and I'm like, okay, that's great, but let's actually focus on what does work and how you want to show up and what makes you feel good so we could have more of that as opposed to the latter.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing also that I think is really interesting that I think that you like sort of touched on is the a trauma, a past trauma.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've worked with a lot of women that are on a GLP one or who have lost a significant line of weight or even have gained weight, and sort of like you're getting dressed from a past identity.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: And even it could be like you're a mom.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's just something has happened and you're not that person anymore.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: But we need that's really we're going through this branding process and really defining how you want your wardrobe to do for you, and actually having this very specific, you know, you know, um, flag in the sand of like this is who I am and this is how I am moving forward, as opposed to just this being like, oh, this is business as usual, like really getting clear because again, there's no confidence switch of like, oh, if I wear this when that when I get to this number or when I feel good in this, then I can.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, let's actually craft what it is so you always have the the levers to pull and you know what's working for you, and there's a strategy around it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you you touched on uh sometimes how expensive it can be in some of these$10,000 or$20,000 shopping sprees.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Also, how doing it in that way without, especially without like the inner work and the neurocoaching work, it's it's not it's not the fix anyone's really looking for.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um but while some people might feel totally comfortable going out and spending$10,000 or$20,000 on a shopping spree, a lot of people won't.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they might hear this and think, yeah, this sounds great.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I can't do that.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So how do most people, you know, who will be listening to this thinking, yeah, I I need a personal brand, I'd like that, I need some neurocoaching, that sounds good, and I need a total wardrobe revamp because this is not, this isn't me, and it's not the me I want to be.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does someone with more of a budget in mind, regardless of exactly what it is, take the more, you know, whatever practical steps for them work to get there?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a few ways that I work with clients.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is let's work together in a group capacity, which is amazing because by the way, being in this work with other women actually is super helpful because we're so judgmental.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, like when like when I'm like coaching someone and being, oh, you should tuck your shirt in, you should push your sleeves in, you're like, I'm not tucking my shirt in.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: But then you see Mary tuck her shirt and you're like, that actually looks better.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Mary, you should tuck your shirt in.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's like, oh, wait a minute, because you want it more for the other person than yourself.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: So within five weeks, we really craft your brand.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that is using the clothes in your closet.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the thing is like you've already spent money on that stuff.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can't, I always say, we can't, you have no right to go buy more clothes until you figure out what you what you have is either working or not working and why.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's again, that came from habits.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: I have a closet over there.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I keep posting over there.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like it's done.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we need to figure out like how you got here and also make the most of what you already have.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, really getting clear of that, and that comes from like, let's just like do a color analysis or really understand what are the tangible things that are associated with what you're wearing, really getting crystal clear of what are the right shapes, what are the right proportions, but what to do with the pieces as well to create cohesive outfits.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, that right there is a very nominal investment.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're also using what you already have and then identifying what are two or three things that maybe are missing from your closet that are going to really have a huge bang for your box.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's always a great place to start, is to just really develop the brand and get some strategy with it.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then what I love about that is I have clients that use it because I'm really I'm retraining your brain how to do it.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like, oh, let's do this once.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, I it's just a very new approach to each season.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: What are the few outfits I need?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have these things coming up.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: What are the few outfits I need?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's much more efficient about how you're approaching getting dressed.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be this huge$10,000 shop.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because the other thing is that I've I had a conversation with a client earlier this week, and she has bought$500 blazers and hasn't gotten a result.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like she thought, okay, I'm finally gonna buy the Veronica beard blazer, and then I and no, because it was the wrong cut, it was the wrong color, it was all of that.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: So like you just need to understand, and then also you don't have the evidence that buying something expensive is gonna work.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you feel like unsafe doing it.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: So another huge thing of what I will help clients with, it's like that's actually figure out like what's worth investing money in, because you would wear it 75 times, and what like you should go buy at Zora because like it's not worth you spending a lot of money on it.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: So really getting crystal clear of what your overall budget is when it comes to your wardrobe and what's worth investing in, and what's worth kind of, you know, I wear you know, t-shirts from all names all the time because they're great colors, and I get holes in my t-shirts.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you don't need to spend, you know, you don't need to go and buy a$90 t-shirt from Nordstrom's.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not that's not necessary.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that helps.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you also integrate things like hair, hairstyle?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Busy people who might, you know, sometimes I I think about my god, men with their very little amounts of hair, they can just take a shower and hop on a zoom and or run to the office and like if there's so little work involved.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then those of us with a decent amount of hair, there's so much work involved to feel like we're we look professional, we look like we care.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you're just out of time.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, how how do you guide around that?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's really about the whole entire package.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's hair, it's makeup, it's accessories, it's undergarments.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's really just getting the clarity of like what's worth spending the time on and what's not.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I have clients that like we've realized that, you know, if you air dry your hair and use a beach waiver, it's gonna take a whole lot less time than you doing a whole entire blowout.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: I have other clients that we've gotten to the idea of like, you know what, like me getting a blowout twice a week is actually worth it.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because it makes me feel and I've had that result, and then it feels really good.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like let's just like figure out what's the right thing for you.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not one size fits all because there's other people that look great when their hair is pulled up and it's gonna end up pulled up anyway.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't you start the day with it being pulled up as opposed to it going in a sloppy bun?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: So again, just having more of the clarity and the structure, but also knowing that all of these things work together.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're someone who has like very curly hair, like you probably want to wear one less accessory because like that's part of like the package in that.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: So again, just having like strategy around it and knowing heads or tails is so much better than like that messy middle of like, should I, shouldn't I?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously everyone's different, everyone's looking for something different.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: But are there any sort of blanket enough rules or guidance that you can offer around things that you often see people struggle with, or you know, any sort of just general guidelines that you can offer on like here's how to think about putting together an outfit, or never ever ever do this?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, never ever ever just throw on a black blazer because you look professional, I would say.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like color is one of the creates connection.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like judges wear black because they're not supposed to have an opinion.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and that's like if you're sure, if you want to be like a litigator with no friends and like not have connections, like go wear a black blazer.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're looking to have connections, have referral sources, like color is such a great way to use.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that you have to go buy that rainbow dress, but like just finding one color that you could start playing with.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it could be teal, it could even be navy.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh, some of my clients, like something that we do in their closet is we do this switch from black to navy or brown and or like a slate gray, like it just makes it much more interesting and it's much more flattering.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, black doesn't look good on a lot of people.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: So just kind of stop hiding behind the black.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing also is just like finding ways to really show your personality.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people like look at like what is everyone else wearing?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, or what's the dress code, and like really trying to like conform.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I get that it's it's hard to be a little bit different, but I'm not saying you need to go and wear something completely different.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're wearing just an interesting shoe or a handbag or a necklace, I cannot tell you how many of my clients have gotten clients because they're wearing something a little bit unique and someone went up to them and had a conversation other than work, and then it translated into like, oh, I like you.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or like, how can we, you know, like hang out, you know, like refer business to each other.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: So just like really like showing that you want to be collaborative in your clothes is going to make a really big difference.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: What I find interesting about what you just said, if you know, sometimes what people will go up to a lawyer and say, you know, I like your bag, I like your shoes, and that can lead to a business relationship.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I often think about, you know, people talk about that you want to work with people that you like.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we're often so afraid to show up as ourselves.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're not letting anyone even see can they like us.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And when we can just get over that fear, which is hard.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: However, on the other side, if someone's gonna be highly judgmental about like your shoes, do you even want to be friends with them or want to be in a conversation?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, just think of it as a magnet.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I was I spoke at a law firm a few years ago, and I have this like red and pink leopard blazer, and I kept taking it on and off.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I shouldn't wear this to speak at a law.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, listen, I'm like literally speaking about like how to find your authentic self, how to use your clothes to connect.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like worried that they're gonna judge me.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: If they're gonna shut the video off because of what I'm wearing, then they probably should, because what I'm saying is not something that they want to listen to.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could think about it in that respect, because also know if you're triggering someone by what they're wearing, they're probably not healed.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like if someone has such a strong opinion, because it's not like you're wearing like a mini skirt or something offensive.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I always laugh at my clients.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is a professional like the fact that you're asking that question, you Need a better question.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does this look like me?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is this pretty?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is this fun?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're you don't have to worry about being professional.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: How about me more you?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: What do you at this stage?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it even means to look professional?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it looks like how do I uh do I look like a bald white guy?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, that's what it means.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: Should we just throw that term out?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because like, you know, I think so many of us are working across different we're, you know, even within law, we're working in very different environments.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Some are more formal, some are much more casual.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we're increasingly understanding that we want to, you know, show up as ourselves, and more and more people are feeling like they can, and then especially with help from you.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: But we've we've shifted away from like that sense of well, professional looks like you're in this black or navy suit.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the question should be like, how do I be more me?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because I also think like, okay, this is like advice.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you just if you were an associate and you just got out of law school, go and blend.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, like I think like there is not um like there is room to sort of be like a little bit more yourself, but there's like this motions that you don't want to get thrown out of a courtroom, you don't want someone like there's sort of, and I'm not saying okay, only wear black and white, but like putting on a navy blazer and wearing something that's a little bit more toned down.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like go, but maybe have your hot pink or have like another color, but it's also like I will always say to my clients, like, we need to learn the rules so we could break them.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: So like don't like try on your first day of work and wear like the hot pink blazer, like sort of like learn who the people are, learn who the allies are, learn like learn that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: But once you get to a place in your career where you know the rules, like that's when you get to start being yourself and you start to making your own rules.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, how how can someone who's earlier in their career make sure that they do feel like themselves in a framework that they don't understand yet?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we're at the they're at the bottom of the totem pole.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I remember struggling with that a lot.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I was, you know, often the one in the office wearing, at the time I was like, everything was Banana Republic because I'm allergic to polyester and they had non-polyester things.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm petite, they had suits, so it was, you know, it they had the super petite sizes, so it worked for me.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like the clothes, but it it fit me and it was professional.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: But then I would have, you know, some really exciting shoes.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was always, it was always noted.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: People noted my shoes, and I thought that was fun.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I also would sometimes think about like sometimes I was a little uncomfortable about it.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: That I was, I kind of wondered, am I dressing too frankly, me and interesting for the role that I'm in, for the level that I'm in, for the for the you know, company that I'm in?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Does this make sense?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept doing it, but I would have these voices in my head that just kind of went, like, are you being weird?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: But we have to still show up at as ourselves, even when we're early in our career, when it's harder and you're and you're more vulnerable.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: You need the job in a different way.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you how do you how do you navigate that?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you get to do both.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of like the authority piece and then the self piece because you can't abandon yourself.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of like it's kind of the idea of like, okay, let me wear the blazer or let me wear the darker color or let me, you know, maybe not wear leopard or things like like clients of mine that are partners, like literally they wear green suits.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like they literally they've gotten to that, but they had to get there.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't say like don't wear a green suit if like you're first starting out, but like figure out what are the certain things.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think it's a really good concept of like figuring out where you want to be.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you the amount of conversations that through comp through wardrobe conversations, I've had to say to clients, like, do you really want to be in big law?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: All you want to do is wear a leather jacket.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I didn't say like it was sort of like like where do you see yourself in five years?
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's sort of like a if you are a person who likes to follow rules and you like to do that, there's this place for you.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: But also, if you feel like you're more in a creative space, then you know, maybe being in a patent attorney is a little bit of a better spot for you.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's such a valuable point to understand that if you showing up as yourself just isn't being accepted where you are, you're probably not in the right place, regardless of what stage of your career you're in.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: As you get to know yourself and what what you need may change.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not saying that uh oh, like tomorrow or anything like that, but it's just like a thing.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've what I love about what I do is I help women walk themselves back to themselves through the lens of clothing, like find who their true self is.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I have to admit that they've decided to live a big job as they were doing that.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not, I'm not saying everyone.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: People have decided to leave their marriages.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like people have, because it's a it's you know, it's the same thing with journaling, it's the same thing.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like once you get deeper of like, who am I, what am I available for, what am I not available for?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Some people have been like, I don't know if I want to be partner here.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just really a way to really get deeper and closer and more connected with who you are.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: So much more than just clothes.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else you want to share that we haven't covered?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely can put a resource.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you could want me to.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: I host these um five-day challenges every month where we go in your closet and we create power outfits using the clothes that you already have.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an amazing first step.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it's it's like it's and also like makes it so you get dressed each day of the week and you have fun with it.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll definitely send that over to you so you can share with the audience.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, please.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I knew we were gonna have fun, and we did.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I I but you you took it, I didn't know about the neurocoaching, which really, really like extra excites me because I I'm super into the neuroside of things and understanding how our nervous system impacts absolutely everything.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I just love the way you're tying together the nervous system, our brains, our comfort, our performance, the way we show up in the world, all of it through clothes.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in just such a really beautiful way that I think a lot of us really need to hear about more and understand that it's not, it's not shallow.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: We get dressed every day.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing that people are like, and they're like, oh, and it's so hard, and they're like, oh, this shouldn't matter.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like it's how you start every single day, and the way that you start your day carries on throughout the throughout the whole entire day.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: And also give yourself some grace.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like we all grew, you know, grew up in a situation where the getting dressed was never spoken about this way.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not, we weren't taught how to feel good in our clothes.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Again, the way that the fashion industry shapes clothing is how to look like you are broken, clothes will fix you.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're not broken, and a piece of clothing is not fixing you.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so it's sort of like a, but I get to use this as a tool to be more mean, to figure out who I am and have fun.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that is such a different energy than like, oh, what am I gonna wear?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's a dress code and what's doing and no, it's like, uh oh, like let me use this as a portal to go and like add some fun and excitement into my life.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of my recent processing has been about now being healthier than I ever thought possible for someone born into a body like mine.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that has been learning what I look like and how I'm perceived and how I feel on my own and about those things.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that comes from one of my um, I have a connective tissue disorder that one of the sort of features of it is difficulty with um interoception, which is your awareness of what you feel inside.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: So breathing, heart rate, hunger, fullness, um, those sorts of things.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: And just to like and then also proprioception, which is your awareness of where you are in space.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I've started, so a lot of those of us with EDS, like we bump into things, and I the neuroperformance training that I've done over the last few years, which has changed my life, has helped me tremendously with those things.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I've started to wonder and realize more and more recently if those challenges that I have have led me to not really understand what I look like.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and part of that is about like that's about attractiveness and that's about size.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a specific and about like energy and things like that.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a specific memory of being in law school, and there was a classmate who kept it, she seemed to be sort of obsessed with how my size.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and also at the time, I was I was really sick and I was often losing weight.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I was I was unhealthily small sometimes, but even when I was, you know, not losing, I was like a hundred pounds.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think 90 got was after law school.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember one day she was just like, and I kept saying, you know, what are what are you talking about?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're the same size.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And one day she was like, Well, what size are you?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was like a uh uh was and am a size 23 jeans, 22 if you can find it, double extra small, but like you find the smallest things.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she said, Well, I'm I'm a four.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I had literally no idea that we were different sizes.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: I could, I couldn't see it.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I still have those kinds of experiences, and I I struggle a lot to find clothes that fit me and that feel good.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it is like I'm I'm small with an hourglass, so I have a size that's that is actually challenging to just go into a store and find.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: I also was allergic to polyester, so I couldn't find clothes that also didn't give me hives.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of my own like more recent fashion journey has been like I've become a beach person.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm well, I've always been a beach person.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've lived by the beach where I now travel all over the world to beaches, so I'm I'm casual.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: And but a lot of the way I dress has also been because I've had a history of clothes hurting me and also not understanding what they necessarily look like on me from just feeling them, other than maybe pain.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm I'm now sort of processing um learning how to understand how I look, how I feel, how to find things that feel good and that sort of represent, as you were talking about, the way I want to represent.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard, it's surprisingly difficult.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: The interesting thing is is that most men's clothes are made to measure.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: So isn't that wild?
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're like, I can't walk into a store and find anything.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there, and it's not saying like, oh, go get your clothes custom made, but it's also to say it's okay if you get something tailored.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so a lot of the work that I do, not a lot, but like stuff that I do with my clients, is like, we need to push our sleeves up, we need to take something in, like that button shouldn't be there.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: And being okay with it's not so much like, oh, I can get it tailored, it's like, but this is what we get to do with it.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, be able to tweak things.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting point because I think a lot of us, because our clothes are not just made like men's clothing, we walk in and we think, we I can't, I something's wrong with me because I can't find anything that just fits me.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, nothing's wrong with you.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because there's a lot of ways to have a body.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm five men, nothing fits me.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, sort of, but it's also then just knowing then and and part of it also is that so what ends up happening is you go and you try a bunch of things on, and you're trying things on that were not made for you.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: So of course they're not gonna look fun on you, but then we go and internalize it and make it be like, oh, there's something wrong with my body.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, there's nothing wrong with your body.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're trying on clothes that are not meant for you, they're meant for someone else.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really where working together, we I with my clients, we get crystal clear of like, what's the right rise of your pant?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: Where should something hit you?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's the right neckline?
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you have some very factual things.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're trying something on, it's going to be something that has a much greater percentage of working for you, but then also knowing how to tweak it and how to make it better.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, one of my clients, we were looking at some blazers today, and it was very just simply like your sleeve just needs to hit you at a different place.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very simple.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just like when the proportions are off, the proportions are off.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do you help clients understand when they're they're trying something on that doesn't fit because they've just walked into a store and it's gonna need to be tailored, but what they're looking at doesn't look good because it's not designed for them.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do you help them see what it will look like and that it therefore makes sense to spend on a thing that doesn't look good right now and then to spend to hopefully make it look good, but they can't visualize it.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's why AI is so amazing, by the way.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have never been able previously to show a client how to look good in something.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually use AI when a client tells me they want something and they're not ready for it because if our we see something seven times, that's how social media gets us to buy stuff, by the way.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: We may not like lime green pants, but you see seven people wearing lime green pants, and you're like, maybe I need lime green pants.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I can repeatedly show a client something that they say that they want to wear to actually give the neural pathways to them doing it.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: I all my job is to provide evidence.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I also can do that with a piece of clothing, and I could go in and like use Higgins or an AI software or be like, okay, let's so let's hemin and inch and let's see what it looks like.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: Very simple now.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: Three years ago, I used to be like, trust me.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: Of course there's AI for that.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: AI, by the way, not so great for Google try ons.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just there's like certain things that it doesn't.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's gonna have limitations, everything's gonna have limitations.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, please do not use AI to tell you like what to buy or what to wear.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's good, but it's real, it's okay, but it's just it's not, it doesn't work like as well.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't use AI for a color analysis.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, there's just like certain things, like it's not that good.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: However, it you could say, like, can you remove the pocket and show me what it's gonna look like?
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or can you, you know, hem this an inch and it's gonna be able to tell you the before and the after.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that is really is very, very helpful.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is that just knowing different parts on your body of where things should stop and start, it really is math.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: And people are like, no, it's not.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, it's math.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like there is a formula to like this is where something should hit you.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny you say formula because my so I I mentioned growing up I was very comfortable with clothes and fashion and style.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: My sister was not, she's a math science person, she's the doctor, and we would always talk about like she just needed a formula.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would give her the formula as you do with your clients.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: Mine was probably simpler, but it's what she needed because that's her, you know, my brain naturally understood more of these things.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: And for her, it was just it wasn't that way.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people just need, and I, by the way, still, you know, I would benefit from formulas.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: We all do, you know, you know, it was noticing your shalom tattoo.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder, and if you want to talk about this, have you noticed anything different about your clients since October 7th in the way that they're showing up, in the way that they're looking to dress, in the way that they feel like they're looking for power, looking for less, like any any change?
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's my son's Hebrew name, so that's shalom.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't think like since October 7th that they're I don't know.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think a lot of my clients are Jewish.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: I do have, but it's not like uh it's not like 50%, maybe it's like 25%.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: Some of my clients do, like I I don't have it on right now.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I a lot of times wear a Sarah David or like though there's like a need to wear something that is representative.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that there's been a real shift when it comes to to wearing certain things.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: What I will say though is there is I think a cultural way of being brought up that I definitely see with not only with clients that are Jewish, it's just with different cultures of what clothes meant in throughout the culture to certain people and how the upbringing and sometimes putting things on pedestals or just um even like I have will have clients that will say, like, well, you have to get out of your church clothes, and that's where I save my clothes for good.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's different, different nuances when it comes to upbringing that definitely come out in your 30s, 40s, and 50s from childhood.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_01: I would say I see that more than uh than a than something of a way of showing up since then.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense, and it, you know, there's so much that we we're not even aware of as kids that were, you know, are impacting us about everything.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that, and I even I tell the story is that so like my big transformation of getting dressed and creating personal brands for myself and using style as a tool is that so when I worked corporately in the fine jewelry industry, I said that like I did very much of like the proving energy.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, okay, I need like I need to go get a Chanel bag, I need to go and like wear a designer blazer, and I needed to go like play this part.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the CEO of my company, like definitely like one day she's like, What are you doing?
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I I want you to be more you.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want a clone um to go and be with our clients.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, your clients like you, go be more you.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember like leaving her office like with such a letdown.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I was doing such a good job of playing the role of like, I thought the assignment was to go look like luxury and to go buy these things.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I got a bonus, so I spent it on like a bag.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: And like, what do you mean?
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so what really struck me besides the the clothing aspect was the when she's like, go be more you, I was like, I don't know who I am.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like my politics, my religion, like who I marry, like all of that was handed to me since I was born.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean, go be more me?
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm playing a role.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you what does that mean?
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really when I started playing with clothes to try to figure out who I was and wearing things like a highlighter yellow skirt and a lace top.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like that felt really fun.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but then there was the oh, am I allowed to wear this?
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that that aspect of it, and that's where I think that clothes get to be cool because you get to put them on and you get to take them off.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: It you know, and the and clothes, as you said, you can put them on, you put them on and you can take them right off.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: I part of my like more recent really becoming myself sort of uh, you know, this phase of my transformation has been I got some more ear piercings.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, got got just my first when I was 10.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: And for I don't even know when I first had the idea of maybe I want another one or two, and I I've I now have three on each year.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I thought about getting them for about a year at least, and it felt so daunting, and I had to go through all of these, but like who's the person who has, you know, forget the three on each year, just the two on each year.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was such an identity shift for me.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that I realized was you know, my dad died when I was 17, and I've had certain uh parts of myself when I've realized on I've subconsciously sort of kept myself in ways like I was when I was 17 of the person I was before he died.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've a lot of what I'm going through now is I'm 37.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not 17.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I do want some more piercings.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I do want to wear something that's, you know, what's my style as a 37-year-old, not as a 17-year-old kid.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like?
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes not, you know, in a work setting, but like, what does that even mean for like a bathing suit being maybe more suggestive than or showing or something, which and I'm I'm not, you know, there have been times where I've bought a bathing suit or a sports bra or something, um, or I, you know, had a cocktail dress for a bar mitzvah recently.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they were things that I a previous version of myself would have gone, oh my God, something I can't wear that.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they're they're nothing inappropriate in the slightest, but I've had this still kind of young girl mindset of myself because of being stuck in that phase.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: So back to just your neurocoaching, it's who how are we keeping ourselves locked in a box without even realizing?
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, like these now, I've got three parents.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a it's now you know I got I got two, but you're you know, one more on each year, and I it was so easily like, oh, this feels good, and then you know, got went back, you know, like a week later and got the next two because it just I realized what right feels like for me now.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's so interesting that you bring this up because I only have my hole, one hole pierced because, and it's something I actually have been like looking, but I now here's an example.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I only have one hole because my family owns a jewelry store, and there was always a thing when someone's second hole would get slit.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I was ingrained that you can't get two holes because like my mom, like literally something of like it'll it's gonna get like saggy, and then like you only have one ear piercing, okay?
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, but so for years I've been looking at these all really cool concept, like like literal like concepts of like what I want in my ear.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm putting myself into analysis paralysis of not doing it because I'm making it way more complicated than it needs to be because I don't know what the installation, the end result is gonna look like.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I still have that.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is my like the fact that I have tattoos on me is like my like going against the grain.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: It got to be very safe because it was my son's name, so you can't say anything bad about that.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I also have I am tattooed on my arm right here.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so sort of a very much of like, I am the solution, I am the problem, I am not all of the things.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like much more of that.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: But um, there are people that make comments on my social media about my tattoo all of the time.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do I is someone in corporate going to take you seriously when you have it?
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: Does it they don't know what it says?
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because most people don't, but just the fact that I have a tattoo here.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people are like, how is anyone in it going to take you seriously in corporate?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have a interesting, like because clearly you're successful, you're doing well.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yet people who don't know you still feel it's their responsibility to tell you that you're you're not got that word.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't my nails, and by the way, I have fun with my nails, and I'm not saying go wear these nails into a courtroom or go wear these.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's it's a point of difference.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting that like my nails always get it.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that I talk with my hands, I'm like, I am a New Yorker, but it's so interesting how people very easily get very triggered, and this is something that's really important.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who says anything about what I'm wearing and what I'm doing is the person on social media that doesn't even have a picture.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, with the tattoo, I wish I remember who posted this, but I remember it was a a guy, lawyer.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: I remember seeing a post from him where he said, you know, I think many years ago, I think is his own firm, he wouldn't hire anyone with a tattoo because he had that mindset.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I and now he's got loads of colleagues with tattoos.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: He shifted his mindset because he realized this is crazy.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: Someone having a tattoo says nothing about their intelligence, their skill, their discipline, their you know, anything that has anything to do with how they're gonna perform.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're interesting.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: One of my clients, she has a very, very, very big position at a very publicly traded company, but she has to travel to Japan frequently.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we specifically for certain outfits, we make sure that her arms are covered because she's like, you know what, I just don't want it to be a thing.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's fine to, you know, it it's different to know who you are and manage yourself in certain circumstances in ways that you're comfortable because you like the job or the people you're with or something, but you you're doing it on purpose for uh a finite period of time.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally different from living as not you because you think not you, you know, is what's wrong.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just don't want it to be a topic of conversation.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be worried about it.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just make sure in those meetings I have my arms covered.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, fine.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's a decision.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: We can all, you know, make those decisions of this meeting, this is what's important, and I just don't know how to deal with it.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not gonna tear me apart because I'm myself 99% of the time.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Clearly, I could talk to you all day.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you, thank you for this conversation and also just, I mean, it and for what you're what you're doing for women, and especially in law, but across corporate, it's important.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we there's a lot of talk often about like, you know, women are behind and this and that, and there's so much, or you know, just the the bias against women and you know, salary differences and all sorts of things, and all that stuff needs to be addressed, but also sometimes there are things that we can do that we don't know that we're not taking advantage of to benefit ourselves.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one of those things that can really empower us and be fun and help us get where we want to go in a way that just feels so right and turns us into the powerhouses that we're meant to be.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: One million percent.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so interesting because so many people will say, like, have conversations with me about, oh, that woman, like, I'm so in awe of her.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And like, she's such like a badass, or like she doesn't, and ultimately what it is is that she's so unapologetically herself, is really what we're in awe of.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not so much like, oh, where did she shop, or like, what's that outfit, or I want to be her.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, the fact that she's gotten to a place in her career that she's so comfortable in her own skin that she just shows up as herself.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now that is energy.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my goal in life is to just be so crystal clear in how I show up and in my energy and in my self-worth.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that is actually what I want for my clients.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, do I want them to receive amazing compliments?
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And do I want them to feel great?
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, 1 million percent.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: But like ultimately, I just want them to feel good about being themselves.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for spending time with me and having this conversation.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_00: This was a blast.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe right now.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you laugh.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to know you.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.