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The Church as a Healing Community with Susan Ward Diamond · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Dr.
0:50
Susan Ward diamond to the program.
0:53
Dr. Diamond is the Lead Pastor of Florence
0:55
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in Florence,
0:58
Kentucky, where she has served since
1:01
2015. Susan received her Bachelor of
1:03
Arts degree from Texas Christian University,
1:06
a Master of Divinity degree from Bright Divinity
1:09
School, and a Doctor of Ministry degree from
1:12
United Theological seminary in Dayton,
1:14
Ohio. Dr. Diamond has
1:17
invested herself in ministry and mission through
1:20
local, regional and general expressions of the
1:23
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United
1:26
States and Canada throughout her 30 throughout
1:29
33 years of ordained ministry,
1:32
she has served on the regional boards of the Florida
1:34
and Alabama Northwest Florida
1:37
regions, directed numerous youth camps
1:40
and conferences, and served as a keynote
1:42
speaker of retreats and assemblies around the country.
1:46
She has served her denomination as
1:48
First Vice Moderator for the
1:51
2011-2013 biennium of the
1:54
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States
1:56
and Canada. During her sabbatical
1:59
in 2021, Dr. Diamond and Dr.
2:02
Rita Nakashima Brock collaborated
2:05
on a pastoral study grant funded by the
2:08
Louisville Institute entitled
2:10
Moral A Catalyst for
2:13
Reform. Following the study period, they
2:16
have continued their work together to offer strategies to
2:19
faith communities for providing support and
2:21
healing for those suffering from moral distress and
2:24
moral injury. They have recently
2:27
launched the podcast Soul Repair After
2:30
Moral Injury. Susan and Rita are
2:33
currently writing a book which they hope to publish
2:36
soon. A reminder before we start
2:38
today's conversation, please take a moment to
2:41
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
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share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
2:47
with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
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Instagram. Send us an email at uh,
2:53
laurensonatemediapro
2:54
uh.com
2:57
with comments, questions or ideas for
2:59
future episodes. We are grateful for your
3:02
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
3:05
of the church.
3:17
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
3:20
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming
3:22
today. Reverend Dr. Susan Diamond. Hello and
3:25
welcome to the show.
3:27
>> Susan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be
3:30
with you.
3:30
>> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
3:34
Is there Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about
3:36
you?
3:37
>> Susan: Well, I was looking through my bio, um, and I
3:40
realized I didn't put anything about, you know, my kind of my
3:43
personal life. So I'll share a couple of things about those with
3:46
you because it's an interesting. It's interesting.
3:49
Um, so I have been married
3:52
to my husband Ron for 40, almost 46
3:55
years now. And I don't want anybody to do the
3:58
math, but I was a baby when we got married. Let's just say
4:00
that. Um, and the second thing
4:03
I would want listeners to know, um, about
4:06
my husband. He is a professional
4:09
entertainer, um, travels all over the U.S. uh,
4:12
and actually he's done some international work as well,
4:15
um, as a magician and stage
4:17
hypnotist.
4:19
>> Loren: Wow.
4:19
>> Susan: It's a very interesting combination to have a pastor,
4:22
a female pastor with her magician
4:24
husband. I get a lot of comments about
4:27
that. Um, but he's fantastic
4:30
in Entertainment for 50 years and
4:33
just, uh, is a great, ah, a great entertainer
4:36
and a wonderful husband. Um, also,
4:39
uh, one of the things that we love to do is travel. And,
4:42
um, so we do lots of cruising and we do lots of traveling
4:45
around the world. Um, we've been blessed to be able to do
4:47
that. And, um, we are proud
4:50
parents of a little miniature dachshund named
4:53
Bella. And she is, she's kind of
4:55
the light of our life. Hopefully you will not hear her barking. My husband
4:58
has orders to keep her quiet while we're doing
5:01
this.
5:03
>> Loren: My. I have a bigger dog that likes to shove her head in
5:05
my lap intermittently during these
5:08
conversations.
5:09
Yeah, well, I want to talk cruising, but,
5:12
um, do you have a cruise coming up? I guess. Any big.
5:14
>> Susan: I do, yes. In May, we are going on a
5:17
very short cruise. Uh, only five
5:20
days, but we're going to Cozumel and
5:23
Bimini on, uh, Virgin. It's the first
5:26
time we've. We've traveled on Virgin, but a lot of our friends have told us
5:29
how fun, how much fun it is. And, um, my
5:31
husband says he likes to go cruising because it gets me
5:34
away and nobody can get in touch with me.
5:37
Yeah, that was actually before
5:40
Internet became really Wi fi became
5:42
available. But we say nobody calls
5:45
while we're on a cruise. So it's a
5:48
good thing for, um, our relationship
5:51
and for my emotional health. Yeah, yeah.
5:54
>> Loren: You know, I was thinking about that because I did a cruise.
5:57
My parents took my family on a Disney
5:59
cruise some years ago. And I remember,
6:02
like, that was a real nice thing because I was not going to pay
6:05
for wifi because it's not cheap for
6:08
one on the cruise. So I'm like, well, I guess I'm. I guess. I
6:11
guess I'm going to have great boundaries here because no one could call me
6:14
Plug.
6:15
>> Susan: Yes, indeed.
6:17
>> Loren: Well, uh, share, if you would, just kind of about your faith journey, how
6:20
it, how it began, what it looks like today. And. And
6:23
uh.
6:24
>> Susan: Yeah, well, it's changed a lot. I'll
6:27
just say that over. Over the time I have been
6:29
alive, I was raised in the Christian
6:32
faith. Um, I remember,
6:34
um, from a very, very early age asking.
6:38
And my grandmother had a big impact on my life.
6:41
Um, felt a sense of call.
6:44
Didn't know that that was called to pastoral ministry, which
6:47
is where I landed. But, um, I remember
6:50
when I was a senior in high school, you know, they had
6:53
the yearly youth Sunday event. And
6:56
so, uh, two of us, um, both
6:59
named Susan by the way, um, were asked to
7:02
do a little personal testimony. And I got
7:05
up and I said how easy it was to
7:08
be a Christian. And then my friend
7:11
Susan got up and she said how hard it
7:13
was to be a Christian.
7:14
>> Loren: How interesting.
7:15
>> Susan: And it was interesting. And I have learned
7:18
over the years that my friend Susan had it more,
7:22
More right than I did at the time. So,
7:24
um, you know, I know now that, uh, it's not
7:27
an easy thing to be a Christian. And I think even in
7:30
the climate that we're living in
7:33
now, uh, truly being a follower of
7:36
Christ and being a disciple
7:39
is very challenging and,
7:41
um, especially in the church today.
7:44
So, um, I know that's true, but,
7:47
ah, I think that's
7:50
really where I want to stop there. You know, I can go on and on
7:52
and on and talk about a spiritual journey that led
7:55
me into ministry. I was very, very
7:58
grateful for all the doors that opened to
8:01
me so that I would be able to pursue that,
8:04
um, especially by working as a church secretary
8:07
at Bright Divinity School. And one of the benefits of working
8:09
there was full tuition, husband and I to
8:12
finish our. We got married really early and
8:15
we dropped out of school. And then we were able to complete our
8:18
undergraduate degrees, um, based on
8:21
that. And then God had me. I say God
8:24
had me at Bright Divinity School working so that I could
8:27
see women going into ministry and then
8:30
opening the doors for me to do that. So I am
8:32
incredibly grateful for the journey and
8:35
all the changes, um, that have happened in my
8:38
life as I've been involved in this odd and wondrous
8:40
calling of ministry.
8:43
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Share if you're
8:45
willing.
8:46
>> Susan: There's a book written by that title.
8:48
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Share, if you're willing, any
8:51
thoughts on spiritual practices that are meaningful for you,
8:54
you're willing to share.
8:56
>> Susan: Okay, so, um, let
8:59
me just say this. Uh, I was
9:02
at a meeting, it was a boundaries training meeting
9:05
with other ministers. I think there were probably a couple hundred
9:08
people and we were sit
9:10
roundtables because that very question was asked,
9:13
what do you do to take care of yourself
9:16
spiritually? What are the, what are the practices that you
9:19
do? And around this whole table everybody was
9:22
talking about, you know, oh, I get
9:24
up and I meditate and I go,
9:27
you know, I go for a run, I do this, I do that.
9:30
And when it got to me, I said, well,
9:34
every day I have a little bit of chocolate and a
9:37
little bit of wine. And those are spiritual
9:40
practices. But not, not only that, of
9:43
course. Um, I love
9:46
spending quiet time with God. I love
9:48
communing with nature, I love journaling,
9:52
I love, um, reflecting on stuff that I
9:54
read. Um, so these are daily
9:57
practices every single day, um, that I'm
10:00
involved in and really get a lot out of it.
10:03
Uh, I work with a spiritual director
10:06
and that's probably one of the most life changing things that I
10:09
have done in the last several years.
10:12
But, um, uh, she,
10:15
um, keeps me grounded and continues to ask
10:18
probing questions that I often, because of
10:21
the work that I do that focuses on everybody else, I don't focus
10:24
on myself as much. And so I have found
10:27
that to be quite rewarding.
10:30
>> Loren: Yeah, that's great. Thanks for sharing all that.
10:33
Well, we're here to talk with Susan today,
10:36
sort of as an extension of the
10:38
Remind and Renew conference that took place in Phillips
10:41
Seminary. I was pleased to be there in person
10:44
and got to speak with Susan's uh,
10:48
co speaker. What would be the word, one of your
10:51
colleagues?
10:52
>> Susan: Yes, Dr. Uh, Rita Nakashima
10:55
Brock, who we co host a, uh,
10:58
podcast, a limited podcast. And we've done some
11:01
work on moral injury over the years.
11:03
>> Loren: So the Phillips Seminary reminded Renew conference
11:06
this year was centered on the theme
11:09
of seeking wisdom and
11:11
understanding in troubling times.
11:14
And with my conversation
11:17
with Dr. Brock, we kind of just talked through
11:19
that theme. And I kind of wanted to do the same
11:22
thing here today. Obviously, as I mentioned,
11:25
ah, before we started recording, I think this is important.
11:28
This will air sometime after,
11:31
obviously, as we are already past it. But when I
11:34
recorded with Dr. Brock, we were just before
11:37
the presidential inauguration. Now we are,
11:40
we're into it and this will be aired, you
11:43
know, some weeks or perhaps months after.
11:46
So I think in many ways that's Shifted,
11:49
um, the national mood in some ways.
11:52
So I want to start with. So I want to start with
11:55
this. Um, let's
11:57
reflect, if you can, as you
12:00
think about troubling times.
12:04
You're a pastor. You've been leading a
12:07
church community for many years.
12:12
What, uh, have you seen that's
12:15
perhaps unique about our current
12:17
context? What do you think is the same?
12:20
What are you seeing, perhaps, in your congregants that
12:24
feels different? Share. Feel free to
12:26
respond to what strikes you.
12:28
>> Susan: Yeah, I was,
12:30
um. I was just thinking
12:32
about that. I was, uh. Earlier today,
12:35
I, uh, was getting, um, off on Fridays,
12:38
and so I was getting all my chores done, uh, personal
12:41
chores done, and one of them was getting my nails done. That's
12:44
my guilty pleasure, you know, kind of thing. But,
12:47
um, the person who owns the nail
12:50
salon is from Cambodia,
12:52
and nobody was in the. This was
12:55
interesting. Nobody was in there except the two of us.
12:58
And she's been my nail, um,
13:01
person for a long time. And
13:04
she was talking with me about,
13:07
um, uh,
13:10
our governor, actually, in Kentucky is Andy
13:13
Brashear, who is part of our
13:16
denomination, uh, Christian Church Disciples of Christ. Shout
13:19
out. She brought him up as somebody
13:21
who really cares about people.
13:24
>> Loren: Yeah.
13:24
>> Susan: And, um, and she said, I'm so thankful
13:27
for he. He cares about me.
13:30
And I said, yes, he does. And I know him
13:33
personally, and he is a man of faith, and he
13:35
really. He really believes that each human being
13:38
is worthy of dignity and. And
13:41
respect. And she, um, said,
13:44
I'm just. I'm just unrattled
13:47
right now because I feel like I'm not
13:49
safe.
13:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
13:51
>> Susan: And she said, um, well, she
13:54
was robbed a couple of months ago from
13:56
home, and there's not been as many
13:59
people coming in the nail salon. So she's worried about.
14:02
She's worried about her business, but she's also
14:05
worried about, uh, people like
14:07
herself that come from a different ethnicity that may be
14:10
targeted in some way. She's totally
14:13
legally here in the United States. She
14:16
said, I understand getting people who are dangerous
14:19
off the streets. She said, but
14:22
this is not good. Um, this is not the kind
14:25
of America that I thought I was coming to.
14:28
And, um, so I
14:31
took some time just to be with her,
14:34
to affirm her and
14:37
in our local congregation. As a pastor
14:40
of this congregation, which is an
14:42
amazing, amazing, um, congregation
14:45
been in existence for almost 200
14:48
years, um, @ the
14:51
beginning of the Stone Campbell movement. And,
14:53
um, 1831 actually was when it was established. Uh,
14:57
but the church's DNA
14:59
has always been. Always been
15:02
about serving the community. And
15:05
so we are Involved, um, in some
15:08
amazing kinds of ministries, um,
15:11
to people who are marginalized,
15:14
um, the unhoused. We have a shower
15:16
ministry, um, that goes on with them,
15:19
um, with those that are,
15:22
um, food insecure. We have a 247
15:24
outdoor pantry as well as a huge
15:27
distribution a couple times a month that we make,
15:30
um, we have a health clinic, um, once a month that
15:33
goes on with, um. But we have lots of community
15:35
partners, nonprofit community partners,
15:39
um, that make these, um, ministries
15:41
possible. And, um, there is
15:44
anxiety about all of
15:47
the, you know, all the cuts that are being made. We are
15:50
grant generated and a lot of the partners that we
15:53
work with are grant generated. And
15:56
we're concerned for the least of
15:59
these, um, because our
16:02
little church, um, which
16:04
operates a big. A big ministry, um,
16:07
is not able to do that on. On tithes and
16:10
offerings. Yeah. And so we
16:13
are, um. I think there's a lot of concern about
16:15
that. Our congregation is a
16:18
diverse community. Um, we do not
16:21
all think the same way. We are not all on
16:24
the same political persuasion.
16:27
Um, and yet we are very, very
16:30
clear about the kind of mission that we have
16:33
that we're called to. And
16:36
so these are all challenging times
16:39
that we're living in. And as I said to, uh,
16:42
Rita shortly after the
16:44
election that I think that, uh, even before
16:47
we saw what's happened since the inaugur,
16:51
um, that we have our work cut out for us as we are
16:54
looking toward the future, um,
16:56
with moral, uh, injury
17:00
happening in lots of different ways.
17:02
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all that.
17:05
I'm struck by kind of what you said, and I'm going to get his
17:08
name wrong. So forgive me. And disciples of Christ
17:11
at large, forgive me. Bashir. Bashar.
17:14
>> Susan: Bashir.
17:15
>> Loren: Bashir. Okay, Governor
17:17
Bashir. Yes, I think
17:20
that's striking. What you shared,
17:25
how he's being perceived, is that he cares about
17:28
other people. I think we're. I feel like.
17:31
I think what's most troubling to me
17:34
about our current time and place is it feels
17:36
like caring for people is, like, considered.
17:39
I mean, in some circles, folks are saying
17:42
empathy is a sin, which is, I mean,
17:46
mind bogglingly preposterous.
17:49
And I'm also struck by what you shared about your
17:52
church. You said, if I heard you
17:55
correctly, your church is not a church that they all vote
17:58
the same way, but they have agreed, uh, to
18:01
be clear on mission and service to
18:03
others, which, again, I think is
18:06
striking. So do you want to share more
18:08
about, um, how that, that kind of
18:11
ethos has come to be and how you've helped foster that.
18:13
>> Susan: Thanks for asking that question because I think it's an important
18:16
one. Um, I have been ah,
18:19
lead pastor at Florence christian now for 10 years
18:23
and when we came to the
18:26
church, um,
18:27
uh, we
18:30
recognized pretty quickly that the church uh,
18:33
had gone through a time of
18:36
questioning uh, what their existence was about and that kind of
18:39
thing. So we really worked very, on the
18:42
first year to 18 months on
18:44
mission to get clarity about
18:47
what it was that God was calling us to be and
18:50
do and our why, what
18:53
was our reason for existence. We also
18:56
developed a set of core values that
18:58
guide us. Uh, so our mission is that
19:01
we celebrate God's welcome table of abundant
19:04
love, grace and acceptance. Um,
19:07
it's the. It's just the ethos
19:10
that we live out of and um, so that
19:13
has opened the doors really wide
19:16
to a great diversity of people
19:19
coming in that they, you know, they're welcome, they're
19:22
received, they're loved and um, we
19:25
really embrace that. Um, the core
19:27
values that we have are to welcome
19:30
radically and serve
19:32
boldly and form faith every
19:35
day. Um, we cannot do
19:38
the first two unless we are forming our faith.
19:41
And that is the well out of which we can
19:44
welcome radically without um,
19:47
barriers to people, no matter where they come from.
19:50
If we've got somebody who's in our shower ministry
19:52
that um, has come in,
19:55
comes into the church, they're just as much a part of our family
19:58
as anybody else. Um, we became
20:01
open and affirming that that whole thing led us to
20:04
the LBGTQ community to open right our
20:06
doors as well as people who
20:09
are maybe more conservative
20:12
politically and everybody has a place
20:15
at the table and um,
20:18
so we live by those core values.
20:21
We live by that mission and that
20:24
has informed how we have developed the ministries
20:27
that we've been involved in. Now we've had a major
20:30
childcare ministry for over 40 years,
20:33
um, one of the largest in Kentucky,
20:36
um, nonprofit. We have
20:39
recovery, uh, groups that meet. Those were all going on
20:42
before we came. But the food ministries, the homeless
20:45
ministries, um,
20:48
um, we have 40 community partners
20:51
that um, provide services so that when somebody comes
20:54
to get a shower or get food from us, that we have
20:57
ways of connecting them with resources that will
21:00
help them to m, move out of um,
21:03
homelessness into you know,
21:05
um, what we would consider more
21:08
um, stable, uh living.
21:11
And um. And so they
21:13
come to, they come to our place,
21:16
these community partners and we connect
21:19
them with each other. So um, there's
21:22
lots and lots of partnerships. We do not, when
21:25
we serve 15, uh, hundred people through
21:28
our food ministry distribution twice a
21:31
month um, we open, uh, that
21:34
opportunity for service to anybody who
21:36
wants to help us. And that's the
21:39
only way we could do what we do is through
21:42
recognizing our partnerships with each other.
21:45
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:47
So I'm thinking about this. You've been at your church, you said,
21:50
10 years thereabouts. Right. I mean, that's a long time.
21:53
I'm sure you've seen your fair share
21:56
of conflict and division in the church as much
21:58
as you've tried to try
22:01
to lead. Well, I'm curious again, as we think
22:04
about troubling times.
22:07
Even if you want to reflect on your own, within your
22:10
own community, there are troubling times within your own community.
22:13
How have those values and being
22:15
clear on mission helped? Because I feel like
22:18
this is. I feel like in many ways this is kind of what is a
22:21
big, humongous divide.
22:24
Divide is not the right word. But barrier. I don't know what the right word is in
22:27
our nation is. There's no kind of clear
22:30
moral guidelines about what should direct
22:33
our actions in future. How is. How have you
22:35
seen those clear mission and clear values
22:38
help lead your community through
22:41
conflict and division?
22:42
>> Susan: Yeah. And I want to say, um, I did
22:45
a leadership, uh, thing on
22:48
conflict because, uh, George, uh,
22:50
Bullard, uh, wrote a book called Every
22:53
Congregation Needs a Little Conflict because
22:56
conflict actually provides the opportunity
22:59
for growth to happen. And
23:02
I love, to use the metaphor of a butterfly,
23:05
um, has. Starts as a caterpillar is
23:08
in a cocoon and has to fight to get
23:11
out of that cocoon. And that fight is
23:14
what provides the wings
23:17
to fly. And if you cut that,
23:20
if you don't. If you don't go through.
23:23
Will never develop its wings. And so,
23:25
um, we. We certainly have had conflict.
23:28
And I would say one of the. One of the challenges.
23:31
And we'll talk about this maybe a little bit later too.
23:34
Um, I think for the North American church, and probably
23:37
churches all the world is. When we went
23:40
through Covid, it changed
23:43
us. And there's. And it. It
23:46
decreased our size. And it was,
23:48
you know, we. We still have lots of people
23:51
who join us on Sunday mornings, and we don't see them at
23:54
church.
23:55
>> Loren: Right.
23:55
>> Susan: And. And there are things that have
23:58
happened. Um, there are
24:00
troubling things that have happened as a result of
24:03
that. Um, a couple of things on both
24:06
sides. So for the people who are staying at
24:08
home, there's this disconnect in
24:11
some ways, um, and loneliness,
24:15
um, that doesn't happen when
24:18
you. Hopefully when you're gathering in small groups at
24:20
least, and connecting with each other in
24:23
person. Um, it Also
24:26
has meant, ah, uh,
24:29
decreasing in sizes of giving and
24:31
those kinds of things which have created,
24:34
um, the challenges that we're
24:37
facing. What we try to do is to be nimble with that
24:40
and to say, okay, God, what
24:42
is it that we can do? Are there things that we need
24:45
to, um, let go of so that we can take on
24:48
something different? Um,
24:51
and that's the. I would say that's a
24:54
huge challenge for us. Um,
24:57
but not to be afraid of conflict.
24:59
And we certainly have, uh. We've gotten in.
25:02
What, uh, what was his name? Uh,
25:05
John. Good Trouble.
25:08
I'm having a meeting.
25:09
>> Loren: Oh, yeah, I can't think of the.
25:11
>> Susan: Author either, but yeah, from Georgia. From Georgia.
25:14
Yeah. He passed away. But yeah, we've gotten into some good
25:16
trouble. John Lewis. John Lewis. Thank
25:19
you.
25:20
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:21
>> Susan: Yeah, we've gotten into good trouble
25:24
before with, um, you know, uh,
25:27
last year we had very, very
25:29
dangerous cold weather. We've had it again this year.
25:33
Um, and we wanted to offer
25:35
space for people to
25:38
come in out of the cold. And we were
25:41
told we were not zoned to do that. You know, and
25:44
so we've been. We've been struggling, um, with
25:47
our. Our, uh, city and county
25:50
to. To find ways to work together so
25:53
that no one dies.
25:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:56
>> Susan: That there are. There are ways in which we can
25:59
work together on that. And that is continuing to be
26:02
a struggle for us. Um,
26:04
and part of. I think it's
26:07
just part of the cost of discipleship too.
26:10
Right.
26:11
>> Loren: Yeah. And I appreciate you say that. This idea
26:14
of a good conflict. Because I think there can be this sense
26:17
of we want to avoid conflict at all costs. And
26:20
I think getting to the
26:23
broader picture, I feel like that's been somewhat problematic
26:26
about our culture at large.
26:29
Right. It's, uh, almost like this. This. Like we
26:32
can't ever talk about anything controversial. Like we can't talk religion,
26:35
can't have politics. And then it comes to the point where,
26:37
like, when it does come out, it's just like all anger and vitriol
26:40
because it's kind of these blowing the top type
26:42
conversations is that.
26:44
>> Susan: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
26:47
And I. I think
26:50
we are, especially in the church
26:53
where we love. We want to
26:55
be unified. And
26:58
so sometimes we avoid those hard
27:00
conversations. And I am certainly.
27:03
I'm a two on the Enneagram, so I'm a people pleaser. And I'm wanting
27:06
everybody to, uh, love me. So
27:09
that's one of the challenges that I have had a personal
27:12
growth over my life is to find ways
27:14
of being in conversation and even in
27:17
conflict. Um, in healthy ways
27:20
so that we can. Can find
27:23
commonalities, we can respect each
27:26
other, and we can grow.
27:29
All of us can grow through doing that.
27:32
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I
27:35
appreciate you sharing that.
27:36
I want to kind of shift gears here toward the
27:39
seeking wisdom and understanding. But I'm curious.
27:43
You mentioned those three core values of welcoming, serving,
27:46
and forming. But what struck
27:49
me as, uh, most interesting is you said
27:51
your church can't welcome and serve before they're
27:54
formed. I want to hear more about that.
27:57
>> Susan: Yeah, I want to. So. And this is where
27:59
we, uh, our church has that service
28:02
DNA. They love. They absolutely love
28:05
service. In fact, we end our worship services
28:08
every single week with the mantra,
28:11
the worship is over. Now the service begins. And
28:14
so we say that, uh, you know, the
28:17
worship leader, or I will say, the worship is over and the
28:19
people shout it out. Now the service begins.
28:22
>> Loren: That's great.
28:23
>> Susan: The weak link for many people
28:26
is that they're so much into
28:29
service or so much into social justice or so
28:32
much that, uh, not having the
28:35
faith balance, the forming faith every
28:38
day and that kind of thing,
28:41
it makes us lopsided. And so,
28:44
uh, what I want to say to folks, and we just did a
28:47
series on shalom, finding shalom, that it
28:50
begins with finding peace with God.
28:53
Then we find peace with ourselves. And
28:56
only after we find peace with God and peace with
28:58
ourselves can we find peace with each other.
29:01
And so out of that, think about,
29:04
think about that in terms of conflict.
29:07
Because many times when we get. When we have
29:10
differences of opinion, we want to
29:12
preserve, you know, or put
29:15
our opinion out there as the right
29:18
one. And, um,
29:21
when we have done that work ahead of time, when I meet
29:23
with somebody that I don't know,
29:26
it makes me at least be
29:29
mindful that this is another human being
29:31
loved by God beyond measure,
29:34
created in the image of God. And even
29:37
though I might disagree
29:40
with every single thing that person says, they
29:43
still have value, they still have
29:45
dignity. And, um, I need to
29:48
treat them that way. Um, so,
29:51
yeah, that's what I mean when I talk about forming
29:54
faith every day, is that
29:56
spirituality has, uh,
29:59
to be the center of where we come
30:02
from.
30:03
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm appreciating that for two reasons. One is I
30:05
kind of reflect on the state
30:08
of young men in our nation
30:11
and how so many kind of moving hard,
30:14
right? And
30:17
as I reflect as the next generation of men,
30:19
I want better for them. And I'm thinking
30:22
a so many of them, I feel like, were the ones who were kind of
30:25
marching in the Black Lives Matter. 4,
30:28
5, 6, whatever that was years ago.
30:31
And it seems like without a foundation, they
30:34
have been kind of swayed. Otherwise
30:36
opposite. And then two. I think the other thing that
30:39
I imagine you can agree with is I think
30:42
without kind of, like you said, that foundation of
30:45
this is an image of God
30:47
bearer. There can be this kind of like, win at
30:50
all costs mentality. I mean, I just saw
30:53
this, this video this morning of some. Someone
30:56
who's famous going viral on YouTube for
30:58
like, being mean to conservatives.
31:01
Like, like. And I'm just like, what. What are we doing here? Like, how
31:04
is that going to win anybody over?
31:06
>> Susan: It will not. It will not.
31:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:11
>> Susan: And we have to realize,
31:14
I mean, and I don't even think even when Jesus was being
31:17
critical of others,
31:20
especially the religious leaders who thought they had it all
31:23
together, um,
31:26
I don't think he acted ever out of
31:29
a disrespect for
31:31
humanity or their
31:33
humanness. I mean,
31:36
I think my interpretation of
31:39
what he did was always, always about getting people
31:42
to understand that living
31:45
in relationship with God, relationship with each
31:48
others has to be based on
31:51
love.
31:53
>> Loren: Do you think that's. I mean, do you think you. I'm, um, writing down the
31:56
words living in relationship, relation,
31:59
ship, trying to spell that here. Do you
32:02
think that's like, do you think that's an essential
32:05
element of it, is living in relationship with
32:08
people? Because again, I'm going back to your church, your
32:11
church community. Like, like you said, you have people in relationship
32:14
with one another who may vote differently, but, uh,
32:17
because they are in relationship with one another, they have a
32:20
common mission to serve and love others.
32:23
>> Susan: Yes. It's all about
32:27
my understanding of the
32:29
gospel, of the
32:32
Christian life. Discipleship. That
32:35
is it. That is the basis of it.
32:38
And love is expressed through respect.
32:42
And I can challenge someone and
32:45
respect them at the same time as a
32:48
person.
32:51
And we can have, uh. I can have
32:54
a conversation. I'm thinking about a couple people in my
32:56
congregation who. We are very much
32:59
on different sides of the political spectrum
33:02
and we love each other. And I can have a
33:04
conversation with them and ask them questions
33:07
and let them ask me questions.
33:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:11
>> Susan: Why, why do you. Yeah, tell me more
33:14
about where you are coming from so I can
33:16
understand, um, Stephen Covey and the
33:19
seven habits of Hol. Effective people says, seek first to
33:22
understand, then be understood.
33:26
Um, and I think that that is really, really
33:28
key. Um, and that
33:31
kind of, um, in terms of the work that Rita
33:34
and I are doing kind of fits
33:37
in with that. Um, because
33:40
part, uh, of what we do with moral injury work
33:43
is, uh, focus on
33:46
listening Listening rather than
33:48
fixing the other person
33:51
to listen well. And
33:54
um, you were able to experience a little bit of
33:57
that, um, at the Renew and Remind
34:00
conference through our fishbowl experience.
34:02
But when I have healing circles in my
34:05
congregation, uh, which we've had several of them
34:08
over the years, one of the things that I
34:11
keep being amazed by is,
34:14
is uh, in
34:17
congregations most of the
34:19
time you think about um, people who come to
34:22
worship. How you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. How are
34:25
you doing? You know, it's this little, little thing.
34:28
And um, very rarely
34:31
will people take the time to be
34:36
transparent, um, maybe about how they're really
34:38
doing. So in
34:41
these healing circles that we have done as a pilot
34:44
project of
34:46
um, how to
34:49
heal, uh, from moral injury,
34:53
um, we um, are very, very
34:56
cognizant that we tend not to
34:59
listen. Well, yeah, because
35:02
we're thinking about the next thing we want to say to that
35:05
person. And so, so
35:08
in the healing circle you do not get to
35:11
speak, you do not get to refer to what
35:14
somebody else has said. You only speak your thing,
35:17
your truth. And as you're
35:19
listening in the rest of the
35:21
circle, the um, non
35:24
verbal affirmation of putting your hand
35:27
over your heart, nodding your head,
35:29
doing those things, you are
35:32
focusing on that person and they are feeling hurt. But
35:35
the beautiful thing for me, as one
35:38
who tends not to listen very well, I'm thinking about that
35:41
next thing I want to say to you, um, but it
35:44
gives me that space to
35:46
listen and to recognize
35:49
the image of God in that other person that's
35:52
sharing a really hard thing and
35:55
um, being able to empathize with where they
35:58
are.
36:00
>> Loren: I want to stay on. This is sort of off topic,
36:02
but I think it fits in. I want to stay on this healing
36:05
circle, uh, because Susan
36:08
is describing something that they led
36:11
at Remind and Renew, kind of, kind of put into
36:14
practice a healing circle. So maybe, I
36:17
guess real quick, just describe it. But what I want
36:20
to come back to is. So just real quick describe like the, the
36:23
ins and outs of it and then I want a follow up question.
36:26
>> Susan: Right. So let me just say that
36:29
we developed. I've developed
36:32
this project out of a sabbatical
36:34
project that I had with the Louisville Institute,
36:38
um, entitled, um, Moral
36:40
Injury A Catalyst for Reform.
36:43
And the idea was, um, for those of
36:46
us who have
36:49
a working definition of moral injury, um,
36:52
it is very, very. Rita
36:54
will define it much better than I do,
36:57
but um, the way that I describe moral injury is
37:00
participating or witnessing
37:02
something that happens that takes us beyond our
37:05
moral compass, that
37:08
creates harm and so
37:11
um, we know this
37:14
veterans um, come back from war, they've been
37:17
commanded to do something like kill a non combatant or
37:19
they've had um, you know, they come back with
37:22
survivor guilt or whatever it is, but it is a
37:25
moral injury that often they don't
37:28
talk about with anyone else. It leads to a higher
37:31
rate of suicide. And then during
37:33
COVID we saw this breaking out
37:36
in the general population,
37:39
um, because doctors were having to make decisions about
37:42
who was going to go on life support and who wasn't.
37:44
And families were not able to be with their loved ones
37:47
when they were dying. And pastors were not
37:50
able to go into hospitals and hold the hand of somebody who was
37:53
dying. I mean all of us had
37:56
this distress and injury that it
37:59
was going on. So part of my project
38:02
was to look at the healing
38:05
ministry of Jesus as a metaphor for
38:07
leading us out of this moral
38:10
injury. And so
38:13
uh, where churches in the United States have focused so much
38:16
on church growth and those kinds of things,
38:19
what I wanted to say is maybe this is
38:22
a time in which the church is being called back to
38:25
healing ministry. Healing
38:27
ministry. And so we
38:30
developed these what we called healing circles.
38:33
We call them also talking circles or we call them
38:36
soul repair circles. They're all the same.
38:39
Um, and I really benefited from um,
38:42
Rita and what she was doing with the
38:45
Volunteers of America online program as
38:48
well as another um, circle
38:50
ministry out of ah, with a UCC
38:53
pastor. Retired pastor up in Northern
38:56
Ohio, had been working with veterans
38:58
for 15 years at the time and um,
39:01
so learning from them
39:04
but to create something that would be
39:07
um, an opportunity for people to come in
39:10
and talk about that
39:12
stuff. So creating a circle, very
39:15
ritualized, everything is
39:18
um, prayed over before a group
39:21
walks into a room and it's all set up in a certain
39:24
way and we have symbols in
39:27
the um, in the room
39:30
and um, we might have a cross, we might
39:33
have a shell, um,
39:35
that we put anointing oil in. And people can anoint themselves.
39:38
So it's just you know, creating that space.
39:42
And um, when people come in they have to be
39:44
quiet and they have to listen. And we have
39:47
a stone that we allow people
39:50
to um, hold and tell their
39:53
story. There will usually be a prompt at the
39:56
beginning of the session.
39:59
So I might ask, I um, might
40:01
ask someone or everyone to write, take
40:04
7 minutes, 10 minutes to write down, write a
40:07
letter to someone who they have unfinished,
40:10
uh, emotional business with. That's one of the prompts that
40:13
we using. And it's powerful.
40:16
Yeah, um, because a lot of
40:18
times and trying to use different
40:21
ways, um, with the senses and different ways to get people
40:24
in touch with what's going on in their soul.
40:27
Um, but one of the things that I love about
40:30
healing circles is it gives permission.
40:33
And you would be
40:35
amazed at what people will share
40:38
in an environment that is confidential,
40:41
that is, um, that nothing
40:44
that is shared is off limits.
40:47
They can share whatever they want to share, and
40:50
they're fully acceptable.
40:51
>> Loren: It.
40:53
>> Susan: It's powerful. And, um. And people in our
40:55
congregation. I have one. One guy who came in who had
40:58
been, um, so much trauma
41:01
in his childhood, and he's probably in his
41:04
early 40s in. In therapy and has had lots
41:07
and lots of. Of trauma that he's
41:10
experienced. And he told me
41:13
after being in a healing, he got more out of being in a
41:16
healing circle than in all of the years
41:19
that he'd been in there. Therapy, which is amazing to
41:22
me.
41:22
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:23
>> Susan: Um, and truly a work of the spirit.
41:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:26
>> Susan: So anyway, we. What we're doing at
41:29
this point is trying to help other congregations to
41:31
know that, um, you know, these
41:34
are tools we can provide. And
41:37
hopefully, um, uh, lay
41:39
people in the congregation lead these. I don't lead
41:42
them. Um, so it's not one more thing on the pastor's
41:45
plate to do that.
41:46
>> Loren: Right.
41:47
>> Susan: To equip the lay people to do that
41:49
ministry.
41:51
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's such an important
41:53
tool. Things like this for a.
41:56
Like, practically speaking, like, it doesn't have to just be the
41:59
pastor and empowering lay folks, but creating
42:02
spaces for understanding and wisdom
42:05
communally. You know, I was remembering
42:08
when you led this in
42:11
Tulsa. I think that if I'm remembering
42:13
correctly, the prompt was on a Habakkuk text.
42:17
Do you remember the text? Text?
42:18
>> Susan: Yeah, it was a. It was a lament from
42:21
Hank, Chapter three, I think. I can't
42:24
remember right now, but it. You know, even though the
42:26
leaves wither and the. I mean, it's kind of like, I will
42:29
trust in you, oh, God. I mean, no matter. No matter what
42:32
happens in my life
42:35
and how bad things may seem, I.
42:38
Yet I will trust in you, and I will, you
42:41
know, I will be yours, you know,
42:44
kind of thing. And so it was an opportunity for
42:47
people to think about the things, um, that. That they're
42:50
lamenting at the moment. And, you know,
42:53
so many times, um, in my
42:55
ministry, people have said, I can't be
42:58
angry with God.
43:00
>> Loren: Right.
43:00
>> Susan: Angry with God. And, um, you know,
43:03
so I had this recently. My spiritual
43:06
director asked me to do something on feelings. And
43:09
I'm this person most of the time,
43:12
but I'M also this person some of the time
43:16
for listeners.
43:17
>> Loren: There's a bright sun and then a red, angry
43:19
sun.
43:20
>> Susan: Red, angry sun. Yeah. Yeah.
43:22
>> Loren: And.
43:22
>> Susan: And the thing about it is, scripture says
43:25
it's okay.
43:27
>> Loren: Yeah.
43:27
>> Susan: To complain. It is okay to tell
43:30
God, because God's got, you
43:33
know, got the capacity to take all of m.
43:35
That. And, um. And it's not a statement
43:38
of lack of faith in God. It's a great
43:41
statement of faith in God when we bring
43:44
our injuries and in our troubles
43:47
to God. Um, so, yeah, I
43:50
keep this up. I keep this up here in my office to kind of,
43:53
you know, do a little. Little, uh, inventory of myself
43:56
from time to time, just to say, hey,
43:59
you know, I don't always. I'm not always going to be up. And that
44:02
is okay.
44:03
>> Loren: Yeah. And I think, uh, well, meant is such
44:06
an important and neglected tool. And I'm just thinking,
44:09
like, I was just an
44:11
observer for that healing circle and was listening to
44:14
Rebecca, excuse me, the Habakkuk text, and
44:17
folks kind of interpreting that accordingly. And
44:20
then a few weeks later, I was leading a small group at my
44:23
church, and we were talking about joy and
44:26
the Philippians text and the kind of
44:29
the paradox of finding joy in the midst of
44:31
challenge. And I remember the Habakkuk text, and I
44:34
kind of, like, right then and there was kind
44:37
of demonstrating it for the group. Uh, even though my commute was
44:40
terrible, even though it's all this.
44:43
And it was powerful for me even just to say that. And I
44:46
think similarly for folks to hear
44:49
that, and it's just such a wonderful
44:51
example. Um, well,
44:54
I'm grateful for this conversation. We do need to take a break
44:57
and come back with some closing questions. So let's take a quick
45:00
break, and we'll come back with some closing questions.
45:06
All right. We're back with Reverend Dr. Susan
45:09
Diamond. Thank you so much for this conversation.
45:12
And, uh, I feel like we need to have, like. I feel like you need to send me,
45:15
like, an image of the happy and mad son for the
45:18
show notes. Okay, we'll do
45:21
that for those who just listen and
45:24
may want to see it. Um, okay. These closing
45:26
questions always. We always tell folks, you can take these as seriously or
45:29
not as you'd like to. If you're a pope for a day,
45:33
what do you want to do?
45:35
>> Susan: Okay, so, duh,
45:39
talk to any female minister. I think they would say
45:42
ordination of priests, Women priests, for
45:45
sure. Yeah, absolutely. I guess if I got
45:48
to be the Pope, that would already be a done thing. But,
45:51
uh, just saying, maybe you're the first.
45:54
>> Loren: Maybe you're the first, um, a
45:56
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
45:59
meet or bring back to life.
46:01
>> Susan: Yeah. Dietrich, uh. Bonhoeffer.
46:04
Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I have always been
46:07
fascinated with him, um, both
46:10
for his, um, incredible
46:13
faith and, uh,
46:16
insight into what does it mean to
46:19
be,
46:20
uh, the community of
46:23
faith, the confessing community,
46:25
um, and his courage
46:28
that he had to stand up against
46:31
Hitler. Um,
46:34
and I've also been fascinated with, you
46:38
know, his. Because I consider myself a
46:40
pacifist and I, uh, you know, that.
46:44
What was it? I really want to understand what
46:46
led him into being a part of
46:49
the, you know, the resistance to the book that he was involved
46:52
in conversations about assassination. You know,
46:55
I just. Yeah, I would really love to have a
46:58
conversation with him. I love his work, his. His
47:01
books. Uh, the Cost of Discipleship
47:04
is one of them. And the one on Community, I think,
47:07
is Excell. Excellent as well. Yeah, yeah.
47:09
I'd like. I'd like talk to Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
47:12
>> Loren: Well, here's a loaded question if ever there was one. What
47:15
do you think history will remember from our current time
47:18
and place?
47:20
>> Susan: Yep. Um, lots of
47:22
fear, lots of anxiety over
47:25
the future. Um, and I think,
47:28
uh, I'm getting closer to
47:31
retirement. Um, and of course,
47:34
you know, wondering what the future will look
47:37
like for someone like me. Um, so,
47:40
personally, nationally, globally,
47:43
um, you know, we're in the midst of great climate
47:46
change and all of those things, so I think,
47:49
um, you know, there's. I think fear and anxiety
47:52
over the future is really
47:54
palpable right now. Right.
47:58
Yeah.
47:58
>> Loren: Well, let's end on something.
48:00
>> Susan: Like I said, like I said about Rita, you know, talking with
48:03
Rita about this, I think that there's going to be a
48:06
lot of work for us to do. Um,
48:08
and I hope that we. That we will be able to do
48:11
it, um, with regard to moral injury,
48:14
because I think that's going to be part of it.
48:16
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:17
Unfortunately, let's end on something
48:20
more positive. What do you hope for the future of
48:23
Christianity?
48:24
>> Susan: Okay. I think I
48:27
hope at least three
48:29
things.
48:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:31
>> Susan: The first would be to remember who
48:34
we are as human beings.
48:36
And we talked a little bit about that, um,
48:39
with regard to being created in the image
48:42
of God, beloved by God, and
48:45
what love actually calls us to as
48:48
followers of Jesus. So, um, when you
48:51
say, um, you know, people
48:53
even, you know, we see in the church this
48:56
division that has happened in a making of
48:59
enemies based on things that should
49:02
not, uh, that should not be.
49:05
Um. And so how can, uh,
49:08
as followers of Christ,
49:10
um, how can we move into the
49:13
future with the values
49:16
of Christ, Uh, the core values
49:19
of Christ, which is all about love.
49:21
And, you know, and I don't. I don't mean the kind of
49:24
love that's the feel good love. I'm talking about the love that's
49:27
the hard kind of love. Yeah,
49:29
yeah, yeah.
49:31
>> Loren: You've been married 46 years. You know something about hard love,
49:34
right?
49:34
>> Susan: I do. And, you know, here's. Okay, I'm going to tell
49:37
you all this. This is great. My,
49:40
um. Probably 20 years ago,
49:43
I remember one of my aunts saying to
49:45
me that as, um, she and
49:48
her husband had been married
49:50
longer, that a different kind of
49:53
love emerged. And it was
49:56
a. It was good. And I have to say, I have
49:59
to say now I'm more in love with my husband now than I have
50:02
ever been. And it's a different kind of love, and it's a
50:05
deeper. And, um, so that gives
50:08
me hope, um, you know, not just for
50:11
my relationship with him, but as we
50:13
focus on love, what, the
50:16
hard stuff, um, how does that bring
50:19
out about God's good in the world? So
50:22
that's one thing. Um,
50:25
the other is, let's see, three
50:27
things. Okay. Um. Yeah, so we talked about
50:30
renewing the ministry of healing, healing in the church.
50:33
This. One of the things my hope for the future of
50:35
Christianity is, is, you know,
50:38
um, how do we move
50:40
from church, uh, growth,
50:43
which I understand, we want more people to know
50:46
Christ. And we. If we're doing the things
50:49
that we have, the values that Christ has,
50:52
so. Sorry.
50:53
>> Loren: It's okay.
50:54
>> Susan: I was trying to stop that.
50:59
Okay, I'm gonna turn it. Silenced
51:02
on my phone. Apparently it synced with my
51:04
computer, but the sec. Yeah, yeah. The second
51:07
thing is, uh, renewing a ministry of healing. And
51:10
then, um, as. As I am
51:12
preparing over the next few years to
51:15
retire, um, one of my. One of
51:18
my real heart's desires and passions
51:21
is, um, that God will call new
51:24
spiritual leaders the
51:26
church. And I have. I mean, I know that
51:29
seminary enrollment's down, and I just. I just
51:32
pray that God will bring the right
51:35
people to ministry
51:38
because it's a wonderful. It is a
51:40
wonderful, hard,
51:43
um, fantastic
51:46
life. I have really loved what I have
51:49
done. And, um, yeah, there have been lots of
51:51
times of tears, and there's been lots of times of struggle,
51:54
struggles. But overall, you know,
51:57
I'm so thankful for the call to ministry
51:59
that God's given me. So, um, I'm
52:02
praying for new spiritual leaders to come in that have
52:05
a heart for God and, you know,
52:08
um, are really about the values,
52:11
the core values of Jesus Christ.
52:13
>> Loren: Yeah. Awesome.
52:16
Well, you have a podcast, right? Uh,
52:19
where can folks connect with you and the podcast? All the. That.
52:22
>> Susan: Yeah. Um, so on the VOA volunteers, uh,
52:25
of America website at the Shea Moral
52:28
Injury center. Um, and now this is. You can
52:31
get this podcast anywhere where you get podcasts, but if
52:34
you want to go to their website you can also see
52:37
the show notes and that kind of stuff. Um, but we have a
52:40
podcast called Soul Repair After Moral
52:43
Injury and it's um, co hosted
52:46
by Rita and me and we talk
52:48
with all kinds of people in
52:51
this very limited six episode limited
52:54
series. Um, we've talked about doing
52:57
some more. We haven't yet, but, um, who knows
52:59
what the future will um, will lead us
53:02
to. Um, we also
53:05
um, are envisioning a book
53:08
that we will be writing for the church, specifically for the
53:11
church on moral injury. Um, and so
53:14
we hope that uh, that will be a blessing for the
53:17
church in the future.
53:18
Um, and some other stuff about
53:21
me you can find out on our church's
53:24
website@florencechristian.org
53:27
Florence in Kentucky. Uh, there's
53:30
a lot of Florence Christian churches around, so it's got to be the one in
53:33
Kentucky. Also,
53:35
uh, we've got a, the church has a Facebook
53:38
page and we also have a YouTube channel.
53:41
So uh, you can find sermons and,
53:44
and um, meditations, uh,
53:47
and daily devotions, those kinds of things on those
53:50
channels. So um, feel free to check
53:53
it out.
53:54
>> Loren: Great. Great. Well, thanks so much for the conversation.
53:57
Really appreciate your perspectives here. Something uh,
54:00
we could do, folks should do more of we try to
54:03
do here at this podcast. Leave folks with a word of
54:06
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
54:09
>> Susan: And with you you. God bless you.
54:18
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
54:21
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
54:24
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
54:27
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54:29
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54:47
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