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SMNTY Classics: Facebook's Abortion Blackout · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I hope my Stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I Never Told You a production of iHeartRadio, and in
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: our continuing end of the year Favorite episodes wrap up
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: bring Back, we're also choosing two of our favorite Bridget episodes.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Those are so wonderful they're hard to choose from. One
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: that really stuck out to me was the one we
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: did about Facebook's abortion blackout, where we were talking about
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: what Facebook was doing. They're saying they're doing free expression,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: but in fact they're not doing that at all and
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: not doing anything with transparency, and it's just such a relevant,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: unfortunately relevant conversation, and it's just really I think it's
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: a good reminder that we need to be aware of
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: what these companies are doing and just your existence and
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: data and how it operates in that space. So yeah,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: I'm welcome to Stuff I Never Told You a productive iHeartRadio.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: And today we are once again thrilled to be joined
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: by the fabulous, the fantastic Bridget Pod.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: Welcome Bridget, thank you for having me back. I'm so
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: excited to be here.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: We're so excited to have you always, but yes, we
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: were discussing beforehand. There's a lot for us that we
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: would like your expertise on. So always we appreciate you
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: coming on. There's so much going on right now. That
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: being said, how are you bridget.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: You know, this week was I don't know if you
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: all feel it. I feel like the last few weeks
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: has been pretty rough. It feels like things are different.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: It just feels like a shift in the air, which
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: can be hard to exist in, let alone make content
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: in that doesn't make people fearful and want to check out,
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: which I think maybe we're all kind of navigating.
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, is that something that resonates with youtwo.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, ah, yes, it's we make a lot of content
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: and we do try to mix things up, but we
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: also don't want to make more things. But I mean,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: for instance, yesterday I just had a lot of trouble
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: concentrating on my work because I was thinking about all
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: this other stuff. I'm like, what's going on in the world?
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: What can I do? Which I've always maintained that if
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: you want to get more productivity out of people, then
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: they're going about it the completely wrong. But that's just
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: a very small personal gripe of mine. Uh, but yeah, yeah,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: it's it's been it's been difficult.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: You know. What I've discovered is these tiny little coloring
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: books that are really like easy coloring, so it's not
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: detailed because I've discovered as much as I like to
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: do those things, I cannot stay within the lines. And
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: when they get really like fancy, the adult coloring book versions,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: like they get fancy and you have to do the shading,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: and like, what is this? Why do I have so
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: many things to color? So I've discovered these tiny ones
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: that's just like a cutesy large pictures of like a milkshake.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: It has been really nice that I can just check out,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: stay inside the lines and color with a marker like
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: those little like you know, paint like markers that.
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: Doesn't really satisfying. Nice to like zone.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: Out, Sam, you are speaking my language, because a good
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: I have a I've spent so much money on this,
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: but alcohol markers on Like, there's nothing quite like good marker.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: A new set of markers. You're like, this is gonna
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: change everything. My future starts today. I've got this new
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: set of markers. Yes, and the one of the ones
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: that that I write really well are so satisfying. I
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: know I sound like a crazy person, but genuinely, the
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: appeal of finding the right set of markers can change everything.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I am obsessed with pins and well written
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: fine point pins, like it has to be fine points,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: like the Chinese and Japanese have a market because they
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: have some of the best, like nicely flowing pins.
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: Even though my my handwriting.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Is really really bad, but I love the feel of
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: like a nice smooth rite. But with these, like the
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: alcohol markers as you're talking about, the only problem I
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: have is the color that reports that they say they
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: represent on the cap doesn't actually like translate in the marking.
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: So I'm like, oh, this is a yellow and it
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: turns orange.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I'm like, wait this is this is not but it
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: is very smooth and it is very satisfying because it
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: fills all the lines, and you're like, yes, I'm a professional.
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: Colorer, of course.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: This is how This is how much I tell seriously,
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: I take this. When I get a new set of markers,
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: the first thing I do is a little colors watch
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: to be the oh they say orange, especially what their
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: orange looks like.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: Just do I know, no surprises?
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: You know what?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: That's good to That is great advice as a newly
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: marker purchasing person.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: So thank you.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to i'ma have to get some like
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: scrap paper just so I can do that.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: This is we can do a whole episode on this.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: Let's just look pens markers my fans. It gives me
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: a head tingles even just talking about it. I love
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: it so much.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: So since I did the like pre show, everything's the
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: worst I have to bring in. This is a solution,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: and it's coloring, large small coloring books that with wonderful markers.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, that can be the antidote to our troubling times.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: Have you considered just diving headfirst into the world of
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: markers and penmanship and calligraphy and and coloring.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: It is quite nice.
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: It is quite nice.
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: Annie.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: I will leave some for you. I know you're about
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: to house it for me, so I will leave some
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: for you to try out yourself.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: You know I have. I have two main thoughts from this.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: One is that I hate when this happens where your
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: birthday is coming up, Samantha, And I wish I had
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: known this earlier. Oh no, that would have been a
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: great gift. But then I think, bridget you should come
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: on one time and let us talk about something that's
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: not so stressful. Let's let's give let's give ourselves a
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: little break. We can talk about markers. I know you
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: mentioned like reality TV. We could have a whole thing
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: where it's not something.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: So do you do all the like dark stuff we
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: should make Let you come in with the joys that
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: you have.
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: Because we just talked about the Adirondacks and everything.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like people who listen to my content
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: might not know that I experienced joy I have. I have.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: The only things.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: I talk about are not the crushing weight of fascism.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: I also enjoying reality television. I think this would be fun.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I think we should look at it. I like it. Oh,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: but unfortunately before today, we're not doing that today. This
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: is also the timing is interesting because we're Samantha and
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: I are working on an update on CPCs crisis Pregnancy Centers.
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: I know them very well.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, and we in our research ran into a lot
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: of stuff about how tech companies were basically paying for
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: them to advertise or accepting their money and being misleading
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: about things. So this is very much related. What are
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: we talking about today, bridget.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: Well, that is such a good transition because it's all related.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: But tech companies really have put their thumbs on the
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: scale when it comes to being able to get accurate
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: content about abortion on social media. Your point about christ
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: his pregnancy centers and the way that Google essentially is
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: like paying an advertising network for them to exist is
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: a great example. But today I really wanted to talk
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: about how social media is heavily moderating and even in
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: some cases like suppressing and censoring content about abortion. I
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: think that we all talked about this back in January,
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: But do y'all remember when Mark Zuckerberg had that moment
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: that people sort of talked about as his mask off
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: moment back in January when Trump came back into office.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: I think that we were talking about how he really
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: started dressing like a divorced nightclub promoter and was saying
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: things like, Oh, we're taking the tampons out of the
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: washrooms at the restaurant. Here at Facebook, HQ just really
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: was sort of having a moment where he was saying
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: a lot of things.
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  Speaker 4: Do you remember this.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, oh yes, he was like he leaned in hard,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: he was hard.
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: He's been waiting for this moment, And yes, oh my gosh.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: You could tell.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: I mean I also I almost quibbled when people were like, oh,
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: it's his mask off moment, because I don't think that
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg has any kind of like I don't. I
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: wouldn't call it a mask off moment because I think
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: that he is the definition of a hollow, empty person,
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: and so I think he is the mask.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: He will say anything.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: I think that he has no he's I'm honestly fascinated
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: by him as a tech leader because I think that
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: he has no value, scruples, morals, there's just nothing. He
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: will say anything, he will do anything. However the wind blows,
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: that's how he will blow. And I don't think it's
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: fair to call that a mask moment when truly, like
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: what the mask is not is not hiding anything. This
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: is just genuinely like who you are, who you always
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: have been, just the soulless person who was waiting to
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: see who they should kiss up to you and will
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: do that if it means holding onto power.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Right, he was just waiting in the background, like his
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: true personality was just waiting in the shadows.
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: And then it's like, oh, oh ho, this is my moment,
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: and so when that all was going on.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: He also announced that Meta was going to be scrapping
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: their community notes feature and scrapping all third party fact
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: checking on the platform, because, as he said, it was
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: time for the company to get back to their roots
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: when it comes to free expression. I will play a
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: little bit of a video that he put out talking
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: about this.
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: Hey, everyone, I want to talk about something important today
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: because it's time to get back to our roots around
• 10:22
  Speaker 6: free expression on Facebook and Instagram. I started building social
• 10:26
  Speaker 6: media to give people a voice. I gave a speech
• 10:29
  Speaker 6: at Georgetown five years ago about the importance of protecting
• 10:32
  Speaker 6: free expression and I still believe this today. But a
• 10:35
  Speaker 6: lot has happened over the last several years. There's been
• 10:38
  Speaker 6: widespread debate about potential harms from online content. Governments and
• 10:42
  Speaker 6: legacy media have pushed to censor more and more. A
• 10:46
  Speaker 6: lot of this is clearly political, but there's also a
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: lot of legitimately bad stuff out there. Drugs, terrorism, child exploitation.
• 10:53
  Speaker 6: These are things that we take very seriously and I
• 10:56
  Speaker 6: want to make sure that we handle responsibly.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: So to say about that, first of all, very convenient
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: rewriting of the history that frankly wasn't that long ago,
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: and that you if you're listening and you're my age,
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: you probably remember because we all know it is not
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: a secret that Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg created Facebook as a
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: college student to rank the looks of the women in
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: his on his college campus. Somehow we sort of let
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: him get away with being like, I created Facebook to
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: protect free expression. Okay, sure, I don't know. I always
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: have to like quibble at that because he I guess
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: saw a video where he said I created Facebook because
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: I wanted people to be able to have debates about
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: the Iraq war, and it's like, no, you did it.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: First of all, I was an organizer in the anti
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: war movement. Nobody was communicating on Facebook when were like,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: Facebook wasn't for that, So that's just not true. I
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: really have a thing where people lie to your face
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: about recent history that you remember that.
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: You were therefore that you were part of. So that's bullshit.
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: But even more than that, he's talking about how the
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: content that he really wants to focus on in terms
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: of moderating the platform is a legal content, right, child safety, harms,
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: drug trade, organized criminal activity, all of that. So this
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: is when he was really talking about how important it
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: was to protect free expression on social media platforms.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: You'll might recall that.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Around this time he was in the headlines for saying
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: that you felt the Biden administration had been trying to
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: pressure Facebook into removing COVID misinformation. The White House had
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: a different take, saying, quote, when confronted with the deadly pandemic,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: this administration encouraged responsible actions to protect public health and safety.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Our position has been very clear and consistent. We believe
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: tech companies and other private actors should take into account
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: the effects their actions have on the American people while
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: making independent choices about the information they present. So, you know,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Zuckerberg in this moment was like, we are not going
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: to be moderating political content the way that we have been.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: We are going to lift restrictions on topics that are
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: part of mainstream discourse and really just focus on the
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: enforcement of a legal and like high severity violation.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: So yay for free speech right.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: That all sounds great, Well, all of that, It's only
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: the case if that part of the mainstream discourse is
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: not abortion, which Facebook continues to suppress and moderate quite
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: heavily with zero transparency and zero consistency.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: So it seems like if.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: You're spreading COVID misinformation, Well, that is protected speech that
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: needs to be left up for freedom. If you are
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: sharing accurate information about abortion that isn't even against metas policies,
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: they will take it down.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like you said, without warning or transpancy or
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: nothing just is gone. And you might not know why
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: or well, you could probably figure it out. But one
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: of the things that's really frustrating about all of this
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: is that, you know, like you said, they're kind of
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: lying to our faces, right, Like they're saying one thing
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: and doing something completely different.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what really makes me angry about this. You know,
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: I cover a lot of tech companies. The thing that
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: gets me is when they lie when they say one
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: thing publicly, when they publish something in their rules and
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: regulations and policies. You know, no one's putting a gun
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: to their head and making them put these things in
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: their rules. They put them in their rules, and then
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: they do a completely different thing, and then when advocates
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: or organizers call them out on it, there's just no
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: they're just like, oops, what are you gonna do that?
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: For some reason, that just really gets me because they
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: are allowed to enjoy all of this positive press of
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: putting this thing in their policy and then continue doing
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: the shady work of going against that policy. It never
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: it never comes back at them like they're able to
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: just do whatever they want while saying one thing can
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: doing another. And I just don't feel like they really
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: get held accountable. And so a Meta spokesperson said that
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: taking down abortion content goes against Meta's own intentions. A
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: spokesperson the New York Times, we want our platforms to
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: be a place where people can access reliable information about
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: health services, advertisers can promote health services, and everyone can
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: discuss and debate public policies in this space. That is
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: why we allow posts and ads discussing and debating abortion.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: But they're not doing that at all. Because the big
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: thing to know here is that Meta says one thing
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: in their policies and then does a completely different thing
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: when it comes to how they are actually moderating abortion content.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's so difficult right now to get
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: that good information, and there's so much misinformation and disinformation
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: out there, and to remove it is just really piling
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: onto a problem that really doesn't need any more piling
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: onto it is already really bad and people are already
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: very confused. This is not helping.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: No, that's a really good context to set that. You know,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: we're in a time where the Supreme Court struck down Row.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: It is so much harder to access accurate information about
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: help so that people can make health decisions for themselves.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: And when social media platforms like Facebook put their thumb
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: on the scales and make these kinds of moderation decisions
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: with no transparency that go against their own stated policy,
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: it just makes that climate so much harder. It makes
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: it harder for the people who are trying to do
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: this work, abortion providers and abortion advocates. It makes it
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: harder for people who need to make decisions about their
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: health and the people that support them. It makes it
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: so that people cannot access information to figure out what
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: they want to do with their own bodies and lives.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: And these companies do that while saying, oh, we promote
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: the ability to use our platforms to get this kind
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: of information. I would prefer that they say we don't
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: like abortion, we don't want people using our platform to
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: talk about abortion, so we take that content off.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: At least that would be honest.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: But what they are doing is lying to people about
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: what they're actually doing while doing it. It just it's
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: it's so it's it's really adding insult to injury.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Right, I mean, the true, honest answer probably is that
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: they are taking money or they know that they are
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: just buying time until the entirety of our rights and
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: reproductive rights may be completely dismantled in every way. And
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: that way they can already say, hey, leaders of this
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: fascist regime, we have done everything for you, so can
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: you keep supporting our platform and give us more money? Ugh?
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: I mean the way that you've got the Fox Watch
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: in the Henhouse here, the way that platforms are able
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: to cozy up to really, I mean, it's not even
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: really the.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: Trump administration, just whoever is in power.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: And then though that administration is also the administration that
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: is meant to be overseeing and regulating them. It's horrible
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: and so we really it's I'm glad that you brought
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: that up, because I think that helps us peel back
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: the layers of what exactly is going on here and
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: why it's so unacceptable.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: And in understanding that that the whole confusion part is
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: probably the point.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: I think that's true.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, in looking at some of the ways that
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Facebook says one thing and does another when it comes
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: to moderating abortion content.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: I think that's exactly the point.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: It's like, you know, if we and we'll get into
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: this a little bit in a moment, but if we
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: create a confusing, inconsistent, not transparent climate, people will just
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: stop posting this information on our platforms.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: And so we don't have to crack down on all
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: We don't have to have a policy that does not
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: allow for abortion content to be on our platform. It'll
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: there'll be a chilling effect and people will do it
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: on their own. They'll just stop posting on their own.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: And I think, in my opinion, that's the why and
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: why this is happening. So Meta says that they really
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: want to focus on moderating posts that deal with illegal content.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Side note, they don't always do such a great job
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: of that either, but that's for another episode. So Meta's
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: Dangerous Organizations and Individuals ORDI policy was supposed to really
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: be like a narrow policy focusing on preventing the platform
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: from being used by terrorist groups or organized crime like
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: violent or criminal activity. But according to the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: over the years, we've really seen those rules be applied
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: in far broader and troubling ways with little transparency and
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: significant impact on marginalized voices. And this has essentially allowed
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Meta to suppress factual content about abortion that does not
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: actually break any of the platform's rules. So the reason
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: wht me know this is because the Electronic Frontier Foundation
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: or EFF have really given us a snapshot into what's
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: happening and provided some very clear receipts with their stock
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: censoring abortion campaign effs as they collected stories from individuals,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: healthcare clinics, advocacy groups, and more, and together they've revealed
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: one hundred examples of posts and resources being taken down,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: ranging from guidance on medication abortion to links of resources
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: supporting individuals in states with abortion bands. What is important
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: to note is that the posts that they found that
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: weren't taken down or that resulted in sometimes a ban,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: did not break any of meta's rules. Iff said, we
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: analyze these takedowns, deletions, and bands comparing the content to
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: what platform policies allow, particularly those of META, and found
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: that almost none of the submissions we received violated any
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: of the platform stated policies. Most of the censored posts
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: simply provided factual, educational information. So it really is a
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: system where you don't know, I mean, I guess you
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: could guess why this content is being taken down. There's
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: no consistency, there's no transparency, and Facebook just gets to
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: be like oopsie when it happens. Here's a great example
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: of a post that was removed from a healthcare policy
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: strategist named Lauren Carer discussing abortion pills availability by mail.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Her post reads, FYI, abortion pills are great to have around,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: whether you anticipate needing them or not. Plan C Pills
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: is an amazing resource to help you find reliable sources
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: for abortion pills by mail, no matter where you live.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Once received, the pills should be kept in a cool,
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: dry place. The shelf life of maybe pristone is about
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: five years. The shelf life of missopriystal is about two years.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: There is a missipriystal only regiment that is extremely safe, effective,
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: and very common globally. So that post is just here
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: is some factual information about these pills. However, Facebook removed
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: that post, and the explanation they gave Lauren was that
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: they don't allow people to buy, sell, or exchange drugs
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: that require a prescription from a doctor or a pharmacist.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: But as you can tell, that post isn't about selling
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: or buying or trading medication. It is just fact based
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: information about that medication.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of those things where you read it
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: and you're like, I don't see the I do see
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: the thing. The thing that you're saying is there. It's
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: just it's just information. Uh oh it makes me bad.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and Eff points out that this post does not
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: break any of Meta's rules and should not be removed.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: But you don't have to take their word for it
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: or my word for it, because Meta said the exact
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: same thing. Eff points out that Meta publicly insists that
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: posts like these should not be censored, and if February
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty four letter to Amnesty International, metas Human Rights
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: policy director wrote, organic content i e. Non Paid content
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: educating users about medication abortion is allowed and does not
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: violate our community standards. Additionally, providing guidance on legal access
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: to pharmaceuticals is allowed. So what the hell he suck? Like,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: why if it's allowed, why are you taking it down?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I'm so curious about because if the moderators are essentially
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: kind of removed. Then is this just a they have
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: like a keyword, like, how is this happening? Is there
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: a person or.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: That is a great question.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: If I had to guess, I would say, just knowing
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: what I know about content moderation, I would say this
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: is probably over use of AI moderation and then not
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: caring enough to correct that. That's if I had to say,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: I would say, because honestly, content moderation is a job
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: for a not just a human, but a culturally competent human.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: When you don't have culturally.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Competent humans making the moderation decisions, it's a problem, and
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: it's a problem that leads to the content of marginalized
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: people being suppressed much more on these platforms. Right, So,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: if I had to guess, I would say, this is
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: somebody using an AI content moderation and then not.
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: Caring enough to correct that.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: It is consistently taking down content that does not break
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: any of the platform's rules.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: That's my guess.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Well, and that kind of relates to another thing I
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: know you're going to talk about, which is something Smith
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: and I have also talked about on some of our episodes.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Is shadow banding.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: That's right, I mean shadow banning is one of those
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: issues that I find very interesting because who among us
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: has not posted something on social media had that post
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: not perform as well as you were expecting, and wonder
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: my shadow band. I have definitely thought this myself. If
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: you've ever thought that, you are not alone. But it
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: does really happen. So shadow banning is when a social
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: media platform limits the visibility of someone's content without telling them.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: And this is happening to people and organizations that make
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: content about sexual and reproductive health. And it's a real
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: problem because, as you were talking about before the Internet
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, like that is really where people
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: are going to find information about their health, especially in
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: a landscape where that information is more difficult to come by,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: where it's criminalized and cracked down on. So people need
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: the Internet as a resource, and so if the people
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: and advocates and organizations who provide that information online are
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: shadow band it becomes that much harder to access what
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: is so often life saving information to help people make
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: health decisions. Earlier this year, the Center for Intimacy Justice
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: shared a report called the Digital Gag Suppression of Sexual
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: and Reproductive Health on Meta TikTok Amazon and Google, and
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: they found that of the one hundred and fifty nine nonprofits,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: content creators, sex educators, and businesses that they surveyed, sixty
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: three percent had content removed on Meta, fifty five percent
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: had content removed on TikTok. And this suppression is happening
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: at the same time as platforms continue to allow and
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: elevate videos of violence and gore and extremist and hateful content.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: And this pattern is troubling because it only becomes more
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: prevalent as folks turn more and more to social media
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: to find the information that they need to make decisions
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: about their health. And so I like that context because
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: we really do have a social media landscape that allows
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: for violent content, gory content, extremist or hateful content to
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: stay up while taking down accurate content about reproductive health
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: that they agree does not violate any of their policies.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: It's pretty telling to you. You have some examples here,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: and one of them is from a place near us
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: that I was like, oh dear, oh, dear, Emery. Yeah, yep,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: But I mean it's also, as we're doing this research
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: on the CPC episode, I consider myself pretty you know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: pretty informed about abortion and all of it, but I
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: had to look up some stuff about like I'm not
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: sure is that legal there? I don't know, Like I
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: was feeling like I don't I don't know if I
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: can trust this information. And then you try to go
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: to a place where you're like, Okay, I know this place,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: and then you find out it's taken down, it doesn't
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: have anything about it. Yeah, it's not a good climate.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: And then you have Google allowing CPCs to stay, you know,
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: high ranked in their search. And then when you go
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: to CPC's they tell you all kinds of misinformation about
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: pregnancy and abortion. They are allowed to just essentially lie
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: to people people who are in vulnerable situations. And so
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: it's already a climate where it's hard to find trustworthy,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: accurate information. And then the clearly not trustworthy, clearly not
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: accurate information is allowed to not just allowed to exist,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: but they put their thumb on the scales in terms
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: of making it more accessible than information that is factual.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: So let us get into some of these examples, including
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: the one eras.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: So let's talk about what happened at Emory University.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: So rise at Emor University, the Center for Reproductive health
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: and research in the Southeast. They published a post saying
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: let's talk about Miffy pristone and its uses and the
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: importance of access. So they post this online. Two months later,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: their account was suddenly suspended, flagged under the policy against
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: selling illegal drugs, which they were not selling or offering
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: illegal drugs. They were just giving fact based health information.
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: They tried to appeal, but that appeal was denied, leading
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: to their account being permanently deleted. Sarah Read, the director
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: of research and translation at Rise, told Eff as a team,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: this was a hit to our morale. We pour countless
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: hours of person power, creativity, and passion into creating the
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: content we have on our page and having it vanished
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: virtually overnight took a toll on our team. And you know,
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: I really think, like think about how critical that information
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: is these days, and how critical social media is these days.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: They are already doing sensitive work in an area where
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: that work is threatened, and so losing your social media
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: that you've put so much time into is like losing
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: a lifeline, both for the staff and for the community
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: that you're trying to do that work in. As Eff
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: puts it, for many organizational users like rise, they're social
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: media accounts or repository for resources and metrics that may
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: not be stored elsewhere. We spent a significant amount of
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: already constrained team capacity attempting to recover all of the
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: content we created for Instagram that was potentially going to
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: be permanently lost. We also spent a significant amount of
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: time and energy trying to understand what options we might
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: have available for Meta to appeal our case and recover
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: our account. Their support options are not easily accessible, and
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: the time it took to navigate this issue distracted from
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: our existing work. So I totally feel what they are
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: saying that when you are doing work that is that critical,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: you know, time sensitive, having to stop that work to
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: figure out, well, how are we going to appeal this
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: decision to Meta? Is all of are all of our
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: years and years of work on Instagram just lost forever?
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: That is a real problem.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: And again, they weren't doing anything wrong, They're they're nothing
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: that they posted on their account was against metas policies.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: It's just arbitrary, and so luckily they were able to
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: eventually get their account back, but only because they knew
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: someone who knew somebody who worked at Facebook personally, which
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: is really the only way to appeal when this kind
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: of thing happens. If your account is taken down for
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: no real reason by Facebook, I am sorry to say,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: unless you have a friend who knows somebody who works
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: at Facebook, you're probably not going.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: To be able to appeal again. Because a lot of
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: these decisions are AI right.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: It can be very very hard to escalate to a
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: human and the only real way to do it is
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: to just know somebody there. And again, I just feel
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: that in these situations where Meta agrees these posts are
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: not in violation of their rules and that they admit
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: they made a mistake, it should not come down to
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: knowing somebody at Facebook to have these decisions be reversed
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: when Meta agrees their mistakes on their part.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Now I'm trying to think if I know someone at
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Facebook I used to, I don't know if we're still there. Well.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Another issue with this is, as you said, if people
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: are worried that their content might be deleted or shadow banned,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: or just they've seen this happen to other organizations or
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: something like that, then they might not post it anymore.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I have to assume that is the point.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: Eff rights. At the end of the day, clinics are
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: clinics are left afraid to post basic information, patients are
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: left confused or misinformed, and researchers lose access to these audiences.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: But unless your issue catches the attention of a journalist
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: or you know, someone at Meta, you might never regain
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: access to your account. And so I really think that
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: that is the sort of so what here that Meta
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: is doing this to sort of not explicitly discourage organizations
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: and advocates and people from posting this kind of information
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: on their platform while saying the opp because it is
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: going to have a silencing effect. You know, nobody wants
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: to risk losing their entire platform, years and years and
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: years of content and research and resources they've collected.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no one's going to want to take that risk, right.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: It's interesting that their policy with like the things that
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: we're going to actually moderate is about terrorism and gain
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: and child endangerment, which is kind of a dog whistle
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: for what the Republican platform has been to for jump
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: to all of this morality level of issues, and that
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: the fact that Zuckerberg is like, you know what, yeah,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: we're going to adopt this too, but it's purely to
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: protect the people's We're just protecting the people's And again
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: it does seem like, see see we're doing like you,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: we got your back. We also agree with this, this
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: is the only way or this is the best way
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: to control what information is being out there.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: Yes, and if you actually I mean, this is a
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: whole other topic.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: But when you look at the way, so they say, Okay,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: we're only gonna be cracking down on content that creates
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: harm for kids, this dog whistle that they love to
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: pull up, and then when you look at the kind
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: of harm for kids that they either allow or advocate,
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: part of me is like, what content are you actually
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: taking down? I don't know if you all saw the
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: recent reporting. There was a very interesting report I think
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: from the Wall Street Journal where they have gotten their
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: hands on an internal policy document. So this is something
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: that somebody at Facebook said, this is our policy, totally
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: fine to have in writing no problem. That said that
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Meta's chatbots were allowed to engage in sensual play with minors,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: so kids, it was okay with Meta if their chatbots
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: engaged in like sensual I won't say sexual, but I
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: would say I've seen some of the content and it
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: is sort of spicy, but it's okay if they're if
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: they're bought to do that with children. And part of
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: me is like, I cannot believe you will put this
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: in writing. I cannot believe that someone at Facebook said, yeah,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: this is a this is a document, I'll attach my
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: name to this. Well and behold. When the Wall Street
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Journal asked about it, they were like, oh, no, we
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: have since walked that policy back. That's no longer our
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: official on the record. Our official on the record policy
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: is no longer that it's okay for our bots to
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: engage in sexy role play with kids.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: We walked that back, Like, I bet you did walk that.
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: Back today as you asked this question.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it happened right after the Wall Street Journal
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: called them and asked them about it.
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: I'm so sure that it was like an hour later
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: we walked at.
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: That we got this now, No, we would never right.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I mean you were here, Bridget. I
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: guess it was years ago and you were talking about
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: another kind of whistle brower account of Facebook knowing it
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: was harming young girls.
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Francis Hogan is is the whistleblower? Why we know that?
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So it's it is very galling for them to
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: be like, we want to protect the children, and then
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: you have these things that again directly show that clearly
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: you don't not.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Really and to be clear, that is knowingly harming kids.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: So I just think it's very interesting that Facebook gets
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: to say, well, we're too busy focusing on content that
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: harms kids to take down to really care that much
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: about what's going on with our abortion content, and that's
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: that's the content we're really working on.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: But really we're not doing that either.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean, Like they get they really.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: It just infuriates me, it really does. And I think
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: the issue really is to understand is in twenty twenty five,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: when you have a question, well I have a question,
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: the first place I go is.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: The internet, right we all, that's I think that is
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: the reality.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: For most of us, and the internet and social media
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: really has become this lifeline for folks trying to get
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: information about the world around us, including our sexual and
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: reproductive health. And if folks are not able to find
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: what they need in their own communities, which I'm sorry
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: to say is becoming more and more of the reality
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: these days, they are going to go online to turn
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: to social media to fill those gaps. That access really
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: matters most for folks whose care is being cut off,
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: like abortion seekers or trans or queer youth living in
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: states where healthcare is under attack. And so if you
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: have these social media platforms kind of adding to a
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: landscape where that information is difficult to access, even if
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: that information is not against their rules, it's just making
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: it that much more difficult.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: And these decisions really do matter.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: I mean they some of them are life or death,
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: and they really have real world impact on people's lives.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, And unfortunately this is not this is part of
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: kind of a larger issue, kind of a larger attack,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: gendered attack. Correct.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Yes, so this is a thing I find so interesting
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: and I actually should come back and do another episode
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: on it.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: In the middle of some research on it right now.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: But the Center for Intimacy Justice, whose report I mentioned earlier,
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: they have another report that really shows how platforms routinely
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: suppress sexual health content for women and trans folks, while
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: leaving content aimed at supporting the sexual health of CIS
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: men largely untouched. Right, So, I know lots of people
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: who run businesses that are focused on like the sexual
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: health of people who are not CIS men. Right, So
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: if you have pelvic pain, if you need sex toys,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: like all these different things that are aimed at people
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: who are not cisgender men. I have lots of friends
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: who run businesses like that. They are essentially not able
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: to do any kind of advertising on Facebook because Facebook
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: does not allow it. However, Facebook certainly allows information about
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: the sexual wellness of cisgender men. So we really have
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: a climate where, let's mostly men who run these platforms
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: are able to determine whose sexual health is important and
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: who is not, Whose healthcare is healthcare, and whose is
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: like something perverted that needs to be suppressed and isn't
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: allowed on their platform.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Now thinking about it, as I've been looking at Instagram,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: the amount of GLP one ads that I've been getting,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: which is interesting because I thought that was medication that
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: you had to get their doctor, is overwhelming. But also
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: on the vice versa of that is MELS you know,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: health sex health bs. Those are the two ads that
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I get. Definitely nothing about women in birth control rarely
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: there's a few that but as of late I think zero.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: But the amount of GLP one ads, I'm like, WHOA,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: what is happening Instagram.
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: I thought we weren't allowing this.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, I mean the amount of ads I get, specifically
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: for the erectile dysfunction medication blue Choo, and the ads
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: are do you ever seen these ads online?
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: The ads are clearly targeted.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: At women, so it's it's a cute woman being like, ladies,
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: get your man to get blue shoe. Blue shoe is
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: gonna rock your world. Get your man on blue shoe.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: And that's a medication, that is that is an erectail
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: dysfunction prescription medication. But these platforms have just decided, Oh no,
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: that's okay.
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: That's that.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: You can you can show that all day long, no problem,
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: you can boost it, you can put money behind it.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Totally fine again Like and then the other part being
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: the weight loss medication, which slowly a lot more information
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: comes back like, oh there's side effis this might not
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: be as good as you think.
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: By the way, Oh yes, I'll just say yes.
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: I'll just say yes.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Well that's like as as of late, and we know
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: this was coming. We knew this was coming because they've
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: also got variations that are not FDA approved, which I
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: guess means very little at this point in time. But
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: again that this is the rampant amount of ads like
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: every two like scrolls on instcaret that pops up, and
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: on Facebook too, which is I'm like, I don't even
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: go to Facebook. I just need to know people's birthdays.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: That's all I need, That's all I really want. But again,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: this seems to be like I thought once, if that
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: was your policy from Jump, then how are these as
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: paying you, I know, paying you millions?
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: How are these okay?
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, their policy is totally inconsistent, seemingly arbitrary, and seemingly
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: biased against any kind of marginal identity. Like that's just
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: what's going on. They don't have any transparency. They say
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: one thing and do another. Uh, and that just is
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: the is the norm for them, and it's I really
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: do think that we should be talking about how you know, again,
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: let's be honest, we're talking about mostly men, and mostly
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: not just men, like a specific kind of man, white moneyed,
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: coastal all of that. How we have given them so
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: much power to define what knowledge is acceptable, whose voices
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: are amplified, whose bodies are are left a risk, and
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: when platforms decide what can and can't be shared, they
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: are making public health decisions with global consequences in ways
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: that are often contrary to public health, and then also
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: reinforce systemic and equalities. And so I just think, you know,
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: this is not just we're not just talking about like
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: vague policy language. I know that I've spent a lot
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: of time talking about that because it annoys me. But
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: it's really about them deciding who gets to speak, who
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: gets seen, who gets access to the information that they
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: need to make decisions about their own health and bodies.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: When Meta and these platforms silence accurate, essential sexual and
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: reproductive health information, but not just enforcing inconsistent body rules.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: I mean they are, but they're not just doing that.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: They are also shaping people's lives and really deciding whose
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: health matters and whose doesn't. And in a world where
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: we know the internet has really become this lifeline, that
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: is not just annoying, although I am annoid, it is
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: dangerous because free speech shouldn't come with a disclaimer that
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: your bodies is just optional and up to the whims
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: of Mark Zuckerberg.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: No, I don't want to live in that world.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: No, No, I mean I think about this all the time,
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: the ways that these that these individuals, like a handful
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: of individual mostly white guys, get to define what our
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: worlds look like in these very concrete ways.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: And I've never met Mark Zuckerberg.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Although I have met Cheryl Sandberg, but I've never met
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg. I don't want Mark Zuckerberg in charge of
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: deciding anything for my life. I don't think Mark Zuckerberg
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: and I have any common idea about what it means
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: to have a good, fulfilled life.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: I don't want him designing what my future looks like.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I think that's very wise.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: I mean that one movie made him look really pretty
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: much a dick.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: So, oh my god, you mean The Social Network, one
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: of my favorite movies.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: Oh my god.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't want to spoil it,
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: but the ending of that movie is my version of
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: Citizen Kane.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: Have you both have seen it? Yeah, okay, you've not
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: seen it.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: I've always seen clips because I'm like, I don't want
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: even want to know, but he seem.
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: Like a dick.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: Go home and watch it tonight. I know your birthday
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: is coming up. My birthday is a fun birthday watch.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm such a nerd. I say it's a
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: fun watch, but if you're looking for a movie to
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: watch on your birthday, that might be that might be
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: the one.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: It's a good, it's a solid like, oh yeah, you're
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: just a sad man ending.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: Yes, you know what I'm talking about.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: You kiss Citizen Kane. The sled moment at the end
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: of that movie haunts me, and I think if you haven't,
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: I think if you've seen it, it gives context for
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: some of the stuff we've talked about when it comes
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: to birth today.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: Without even seeing it, I was like, all right.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Also love it. It's such a dark soundtrack.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: Who is it yet?
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Nobody does a haunting soundtrack like Trent Resnor Gone Girl
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: soundtrack soundtrack to Challengers, also Trent Resnor, And that's the
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: soundtrack I put on when I'm writing if you need
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: to focus and just like put on some headphones and
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: be like we are writing, that is your soundtrack. Resnor
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: can write a dark movie soundtrack like nobody's business.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: And I love that.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: It was in this movie about this college kid trying
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: to get a girl to like oh lord, yes, okay,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: well we'll revisit that later. We'll do uh maybe you know,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: we had a fun time trash talking some Hugh Heffner
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: that one time we'll come back with a fun thing
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: for you, Bridget and you can side because you always
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: bring us these heavy topics of your choosing. But before then,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Where can the
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: good listeners find you?
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: You can find me on my podcast, there are our
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: goals on the internet. You can find me on Instagram.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: I know it's owned by Max Zarckerberg. I don't make
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: it either at Bridget Bryan DC, TikTok at Bridge and
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: Bran DC, and on YouTube.
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: And there are no girls on the internet.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, go check all of that out if you have
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: it already, listeners, if you would like to contact us,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: you can. You can email us at Hello Stuff, I
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: never told you. You can find us on Blue skyt
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: most of podcast or Instagram and TikTok at Stuff one
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: never told you. We're also on YouTube. We have new
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: merchandise at Cotton Bureau, and we have a book you
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: her A Suproduces, Christina Executive Producing, my under contributor Joey,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Never
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: told you. Quot should by Heart Radio for more podcasts
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: from my heart Radio. You can check out the heart
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Radio app, a podcast or where you listen to your
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: favorite shows.