Latest / The Art of Adjusting® Podcast / Episode #88: Winter Heat, Cold Pipes, and Hot Claims: Investigating Seasonal Losses

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Episode #88: Winter Heat, Cold Pipes, and Hot Claims: Investigating Seasonal Losses · The Art of Adjusting® Podcast

• 0:06
  William Auten: Hello, I'm Bill Auten of Auten Claims Management.
• 0:09
  Chantal Roberts: I'm Chantal Roberts of CMR Consulting, and welcome to the Art of Adjusting Podcast.
• 0:14
  William Auten: Today we're going to talk about life as an insurance adjuster from the perspective of property, auto, liability, or workers' compensation adjusters.
• 0:22
  William Auten: Our goal is to bring interesting topics in the world of claims adjusting to people who are working as an adjuster now and to people who are considering a career as a claims adjuster.
• 0:31
  William Auten: Hey, Chantal.
• 0:32
  Chantal Roberts: Good morning.
• 0:32
  Chantal Roberts: We're both going, woo, let's go.
• 0:35
  Chantal Roberts: Let's start this.
• 0:36
  William Auten: Extra strong coffee today.
• 0:38
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, yes, absolutely.
• 0:39
  William Auten: How are you doing?
• 0:40
  William Auten: Oh, I'm good.
• 0:42
  William Auten: Uh, weather is horrible this time of year.
• 0:45
  Chantal Roberts: Um again, why do you live up north?
• 0:47
  Chantal Roberts: I'm I don't know.
• 0:48
  Chantal Roberts: Explain to me why you do that.
• 0:50
  William Auten: Family.
• 0:51
  William Auten: I can't I can't escape it.
• 0:53
  William Auten: Uh you know, I like the change in seasons from one to the other, but um, February, January, February, March, they're just so oppressive here sometimes.
• 1:02
  William Auten: And we have been spoiled over the past five years.
• 1:05
  William Auten: We have had kind of open winters, we call them open winters where there's not much snow.
• 1:10
  Chantal Roberts: Right.
• 1:10
  William Auten: Um, this year's not not one of those.
• 1:13
  Chantal Roberts: Not one of those.
• 1:14
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, so ours has been unbearably cold as well.
• 1:18
  Chantal Roberts: And that's what we are going to be talking about about uh or and and what we have been talking about throughout this whole um couple of past weeks.
• 1:30
  Chantal Roberts: We're gonna be talking about seasons, yeah.
• 1:32
  Chantal Roberts: The winter seasons, which is which is great because um, you know me, I love a theme.
• 1:37
  Chantal Roberts: And we're gonna be talking about the heating hazards, uh, fire and winter homeowner liability um board today.
• 1:47
  Chantal Roberts: You know, cold snaps, heating systems working overtime, property adjusters, probably like maybe some oh goody, you're here.
• 1:56
  Chantal Roberts: Um uh if you get cold, you can just snuggle up with the snuggle with the iron claw.
• 2:01
  Chantal Roberts: Well, see what see what happened was is when you were uh out and Heather Blevins was uh very kindly subbing for you.
• 2:14
  Chantal Roberts: Yes, uh the iron claw figured out that I would give him a saucer of milk during podcast to keep him quiet and off camera.
• 2:24
  Chantal Roberts: So I've actually created a monster.
• 2:27
  William Auten: Yeah, so now you have to have the milk.
• 2:28
  William Auten: Yeah, he looks just like our cat.
• 2:30
  William Auten: We have a cat the same color.
• 2:32
  William Auten: Uh oh, cool.
• 2:33
  William Auten: Two, two, we have two of them, and one of them is that color, and he uh he does not like to be inside.
• 2:40
  William Auten: Um so this weather has been really rough because you can just tell he's bored out of his skull.
• 2:46
  William Auten: Yeah, he's playing with stuff, you know, he'll he'll get into trouble just because he's bored out of his mind.
• 2:51
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, you know, okay, so before we start, let's just talk about our pets.
• 2:56
  Chantal Roberts: So uh my dog Blue goes to doggy daycare every other week or something like that for one or two days so that he can play with the dogs and get socialized and and what have you.
• 3:07
  Chantal Roberts: And it's been so bad here that they haven't been able to let the dogs outside.
• 3:13
  Chantal Roberts: And he has been in timeout twice at doggy daycare and has been written up twice.
• 3:22
  Chantal Roberts: Ooh, yeah, yeah.
• 3:24
  William Auten: And now there's gonna see the principal.
• 3:26
  Chantal Roberts: I yes, because now there is a dog, a a Jack Russell Terrier or something like that, that he can't be in the same room with.
• 3:34
  Chantal Roberts: So now they have to like rotate him and that other dog in.
• 3:37
  Chantal Roberts: And I'm like, are you a teenager?
• 3:40
  William Auten: Do they charge more for that?
• 3:41
  Chantal Roberts: No, they don't, and then I'm just petrified that they're gonna absolutely throw him out, you know?
• 3:48
  Chantal Roberts: Like, and I'm oh no, yeah, like where am I gonna put this dog?
• 3:52
  Chantal Roberts: And uh, so it's like, what, what do I do?
• 3:56
  Chantal Roberts: But they they just go, Look, really, what it is is that they're stir crazy because they're not getting able to run outside.
• 4:04
  Chantal Roberts: And I'm like, I totally get that because I'm not taking them to the park because it's freaking cold outside.
• 4:08
  William Auten: So and if the wind is blowing, it's even worse.
• 4:11
  William Auten: Like, we get a day um, you know, we had I I had mentioned before we started, we had like three days where the temperature never changed, it was 11 degrees for like three days straight.
• 4:21
  William Auten: It was really weird.
• 4:23
  William Auten: But the wind, there was no wind, so you could go outside and shovel snow or do whatever, and it wasn't that bad.
• 4:28
  William Auten: I mean, your nose would freeze and stuff, but um uh but when the wind blows, it's just brutal.
• 4:35
  William Auten: Like you can't even think, you just all you want to do is get out of the wind.
• 4:40
  Chantal Roberts: Oh, yeah.
• 4:40
  Chantal Roberts: And and you know what, the the heating claims really don't start with the cold snap, it starts when it starts getting colder, and then it's just kind of like what Texas had a couple of years ago, and they've suffered a little bit about it this year when it got cold down there.
• 4:59
  Chantal Roberts: Is that now that there's more energy being used, uh, you know, that's when there's uh more strain on the grid, maybe, and this is when the temperatures drop, and now we're starting to improvise a little bit because our heaters aren't keeping up, and maybe we're using a fireplace that hasn't been cleaned in a while.
• 5:21
  Chantal Roberts: Space heaters, uh, space heaters, and I have claims to tell you about where people for whatever reason they thought it was a good idea to make a fire in the bed.
• 5:35
  Chantal Roberts: Oh, wow.
• 5:36
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, I don't I I yeah, I'm not sure what the thinking was in that one.
• 5:42
  Chantal Roberts: It's a covered claim, but you know.
• 5:46
  William Auten: Well, what were the uh the old they used to make these bedwarmers?
• 5:50
  William Auten: Uh they're they were like a brass pan uh pan.
• 5:53
  William Auten: You put coals in them.
• 5:54
  Chantal Roberts: Oh, yeah, they they're called bedwarmers.
• 5:56
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, they're called bedwarmers.
• 5:57
  Chantal Roberts: Uh we call them electric blankets now.
• 6:00
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 6:02
  William Auten: And yeah, yeah.
• 6:05
  William Auten: Well, overload of electric systems happens in the winter and in the summer.
• 6:10
  William Auten: Summer, obviously, it's AC units, but in the winter, when you um especially in a place like Texas, where you don't have a lot of natural fuel, propane, or gas uh heating systems, because they don't in those climates need heat very often.
• 6:27
  William Auten: So they put electric in, figuring, well, it's there if they need it.
• 6:31
  Chantal Roberts: And I'm gonna say the insulation is not causes a cost thick because see, right?
• 6:39
  Chantal Roberts: I happen to have a frozen pipe just recently, but it was actually underground.
• 6:45
  Chantal Roberts: It was our sump pump.
• 6:46
  Chantal Roberts: Um, the pipe that was going from our sump pump, which is underground, froze solid and went and when the uh sump pump kept trying to discharge, uh, you know, discharge the water, uh, finally enough pressure built a cycle where the pipes actually exploded off inside the house.
• 7:07
  Chantal Roberts: Um and exactly, and so I'm sitting there talking to the plumber, God love him, and he he's also from Arkansas, so we tease each other about being cousins.
• 7:20
  Chantal Roberts: And I I sit there and say, How do I even protect a pipe that's underground from freezing?
• 7:28
  Chantal Roberts: Like, I know we all know what to do right uh to keep our pipes dripping, uh, maybe put a heater on it, something like that.
• 7:38
  Chantal Roberts: Uh but how do you do that underground?
• 7:43
  Chantal Roberts: I mean, that's how cold it has been.
• 7:45
  Chantal Roberts: And sometimes we are not used to that, and neither are our insureds.
• 7:49
  Chantal Roberts: So let's talk.
• 7:52
  William Auten: Yeah.
• 7:52
  William Auten: So um, so we can uh address first party claims first.
• 7:58
  William Auten: First party, uh, those are the claims that you make under your own policy for damage to your building.
• 8:02
  William Auten: And uh can happen if you own a business and own a building or a home and and own a building.
• 8:07
  William Auten: So the types of claims that you get from uh that relate to heating systems could be because the heating system caused damage itself, like uh puffback, uh puffback claims are typically with oil burners, oil burning furnaces, um where uh high winds or something will will push uh soot back into the house from um from the outside from air pressure from the outside, uh and then that soot goes through all through the house.
• 8:41
  William Auten: And soot from an oil boiler or furnace is nasty.
• 8:45
  Chantal Roberts: Nasty uh requires a lot of cleanup and uh I have seen uh exclusions for puffback claims uh in in homeowners' policies.
• 8:55
  Chantal Roberts: So I was just gonna say adjusters be aware of your exclusions in this particular thing.
• 9:00
  Chantal Roberts: Usually smoke m may be covered, but like puffback is not.
• 9:05
  Chantal Roberts: And so this is part of the reason why you would need to get, like we talked about previously, like the weather reports, for example.
• 9:13
  William Auten: So a lot of people are gonna grind their teeth or gnash, you know, they'd be very angry to hear that there's an exclusion on a policy, but but follow the logic here a little bit.
• 9:23
  William Auten: Um, you're gonna get a credit for that exclusion.
• 9:26
  William Auten: If you don't have an oil burning furnace in your house is heated with electric or a heat pump or something like that, you absolutely should take that exclusion because you're never gonna have that kind of claim and you get the credit for it.
• 9:40
  William Auten: So it's you know, it's not all insurance companies being the evil bad guy that just want to take away coverage.
• 9:46
  William Auten: Um, they offer that for folks who don't need that kind of coverage so that they can get a uh a discount on their insurance.
• 9:55
  Chantal Roberts: Or they would offer it for for people who have oil-based heaters and who are not taking care of it.
• 10:03
  William Auten: Yeah, if they if you have a history of claims uh from that, like you've in the past 10 years, you've had five claims, uh puffback claims, they're probably gonna put that on there because they uh or they're just gonna non-renew you.
• 10:16
  unknown: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:17
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, that too.
• 10:18
  Chantal Roberts: Uh so hold on.
• 10:22
  Chantal Roberts: Excuse me.
• 10:23
  Chantal Roberts: So agents, if you're listening, you know, that's something to be thinking about.
• 10:29
  Chantal Roberts: Adjusters look at that exclusion, see if if there is a puffback claim.
• 10:36
  Chantal Roberts: Uh and what else?
• 10:38
  William Auten: I mean, I so what we're talking about now is the a heating system that's permanent to the house.
• 10:44
  William Auten: Uh we can talk about temporary stuff in a minute, but the other things that can happen with permanently installed um heating systems, um uh where the heating system itself causes damage, um, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head here would be fireplaces.
• 11:02
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 11:03
  William Auten: Um, and when that fire is, you know, a friendly fire inside the the fireplace or the wood stove and it escapes that for some reason, um, or it overheats and and causes damage outside of it, uh that's that's one way that you can have damage from the heating system itself.
• 11:22
  William Auten: Chimney fires are big.
• 11:23
  William Auten: If you have a wood wood burning um or even coal burning, you should have that serviced and cleaned every every season, if not twice a season, depending on how much you burn.
• 11:33
  Chantal Roberts: And these are good things for adjusters to ask for the receipts for the cleaning of the fireplace, because a lot of us don't know that the fireplaces should be cleaned.
• 11:47
  Chantal Roberts: If you're if you're if you're burning wood or something to that effect.
• 11:52
  Chantal Roberts: And also, for example, the wood-burning stoves, uh, which are similar, I guess, to wood-burning fireplaces.
• 11:59
  Chantal Roberts: My grandparents had a wood-burning stove in their living room.
• 12:02
  Chantal Roberts: Uh, it would have a pipe that came up and then kind of did a 90-degree turn and went into the wall, which probably did a 90-degree turn and then went out of the house.
• 12:11
  Chantal Roberts: But that is something to pay attention to.
• 12:15
  Chantal Roberts: I have seen many, many photographs where uh Jethro has put up this the stove pipe himself, and it is not well fitting.
• 12:27
  Chantal Roberts: And so there, of course, there's a lot of carbon monoxide being expelled as well as soot and smoke, and that is part of what they are claiming, but it may be an improper maintenance in that particular instant instance rather than a covered claim.
• 12:46
  William Auten: Yeah, most of the wood stove um fires or hazards that I've come across in claims relate to the chimney where it it uh transitions through you know a wall or a ceiling.
• 12:58
  William Auten: And um, you know, there's it's just a bad install.
• 13:02
  William Auten: Um now we had I can tell you one story about a funky chimney, and this was uh a long time ago.
• 13:11
  William Auten: And it was um they had taken coffee cans and welded them together.
• 13:19
  William Auten: It's they cut the top and the bottom off and they welded them together, and that was their flu for their fireplace.
• 13:26
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about right there.
• 13:28
  William Auten: Yeah, had a lot of openings in it and b bad stuff happens then.
• 13:32
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 13:32
  William Auten: Um, and uh the the other weird thing that happens with these things is where the when they transition through a wall or ceiling, the insulation, there's different kinds of insulation, but blown-in insulation, if fire escapes out of a chimney and and affects the insulation surrounding it, first of all, the insulation should never be up against the chimney.
• 13:53
  William Auten: Uh but we had a claim where it was, and the um the the heat pierced the chimney and started the insulation on fire.
• 14:04
  William Auten: And the the insul that kind of insulation is kind of dense.
• 14:08
  William Auten: Um and the the the what do I want to say?
• 14:15
  William Auten: The embers burrow their way through it.
• 14:18
  William Auten: So it burrowed its way through this insulation where the origin of the fire was like six or eight feet away from the chimney.
• 14:27
  William Auten: So it threw everybody off.
• 14:29
  William Auten: You know, thinking that the origin was over here, looking for fire, there's no are looking for electrical, there's no electrical there.
• 14:35
  William Auten: Uh, and and they discovered after some further investigation that that's what happened.
• 14:41
  William Auten: It burrowed through looking for air, and once it got to a loose spot in the insulation where there was a little more air, that's where it kind of escaped.
• 14:51
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 14:51
  Chantal Roberts: I I had something against very, very similar where there was a uh insured cleaning out their fireplace.
• 15:00
  Chantal Roberts: They had not ensured that all of the embers were out.
• 15:06
  Chantal Roberts: You know, they were it was actually the next morning after a fire in the fireplace.
• 15:12
  Chantal Roberts: They had shoveled the ash out into a plastic Home Depot bucket.
• 15:18
  Chantal Roberts: And then they put the bucket outside and it recombusted one of the sparks, happened to be still enough of alive, it recombusted and started up the siding, got into the house, up to the um wall cavities, the insulation, all the way up into the attic.
• 15:40
  Chantal Roberts: It ended up totally out their house.
• 15:43
  Chantal Roberts: So again, these these claims uh may not occur exactly where they start or you know, so as an as as an adjuster, um, I'm sure we're gonna talk about how you should investigate these losses, but let's talk about more common fire sauce um sources before we get into how we're gonna do that.
• 16:08
  William Auten: Sure.
• 16:08
  William Auten: So uh we you know we talked about units that are installed in your house, fireplace or furnace or whatever.
• 16:15
  William Auten: Um the next thing we can talk about is uh temporary heating systems.
• 16:21
  unknown: Yep.
• 16:23
  Chantal Roberts: One moment.
• 16:24
  Chantal Roberts: No, that's okay.
• 16:25
  Chantal Roberts: We I can talk.
• 16:26
  Chantal Roberts: Um in my house in Arkansas, where I was growing up, we had a large den and we had a kerosene uh or yeah, I guess it was a kerosene uh fire space heater.
• 16:40
  Chantal Roberts: And of course it had stickers all over it where you're not supposed to put anything within three feet, anything flammable within three feet, which is pretty much, I mean, almost anything, I guess.
• 16:52
  William Auten: Um fireplaces are pretty much the same thing, non-combustibles, exactly.
• 16:58
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, you don't want to put your baby right next to it, or the curtains, or you know, the couch.
• 17:04
  Chantal Roberts: Don't put it right on the couch.
• 17:07
  Chantal Roberts: Uh something to that effect.
• 17:08
  Chantal Roberts: Like you, so yeah, don't don't do those sorts of things.
• 17:12
  Chantal Roberts: And even if you got an electric heater, uh, I have I have an old-fashioned one that I particularly like, and it there is a little spark when it turns on.
• 17:24
  Chantal Roberts: So I I don't know why.
• 17:28
  Chantal Roberts: It's not that old, it's just old-fashioned.
• 17:31
  Chantal Roberts: And so it does, it does have a little spark when it turns on, and that would be the same thing, runs on electricity, right?
• 17:39
  Chantal Roberts: But we don't want to put that near anything that would be flammable, like me putting a towel in on it, trying to get the towels warm before I step out of the shower or whatever.
• 17:53
  William Auten: And it's not just the um the heating element itself that could cause problems for you.
• 17:57
  William Auten: If um if the circuit that you're plugged into is not adequate for that unit, what will happen is that the wires potentially inside the wall get hot, uh hot enough to uh uh start a fire inside the wall, which you you won't know about until it's way too late.
• 18:18
  Chantal Roberts: So, do you want to hear about how Chantal accidentally tried to burn down her house uh recently, in fact?
• 18:25
  Chantal Roberts: Oh no.
• 18:26
  Chantal Roberts: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:27
  Chantal Roberts: So I got a water heat uh water softener for this house, and there was not it we of course it's down in the basement with the water heater, and there the all of the plugs are on the opposite side of the wall.
• 18:47
  Chantal Roberts: And I could tell that the previous owner had done some electrical work because what he had done was taken electricity from the plugs and went up and over and then down.
• 19:00
  Chantal Roberts: But the but the issue is is that he didn't snake it through, so he's actually blocking off some HVAC conduits.
• 19:08
  Chantal Roberts: And so I'm better than that.
• 19:10
  Chantal Roberts: So I'm like, I'm not gonna do that.
• 19:12
  Chantal Roberts: And I see that there's this line or this wire coming across on the opposite side of the wall.
• 19:18
  Chantal Roberts: I'm like, great, I'm gonna take that line right there, drop it down, plug it in, do a uh uh certify the ground control fault, uh it uh electric box, because you know, there is water, even though I'm putting it like five feet up off the ground, but there's water.
• 19:36
  Chantal Roberts: I'm not gonna, you know, mess with it.
• 19:38
  Chantal Roberts: But the the electrician said that's actually what saved the house.
• 19:42
  Chantal Roberts: So anyway, I um get to everything's working, everything's perfect, but a couple of weeks go by and my water heater's not working, it's like not giving me hot water.
• 19:59
  Chantal Roberts: And I come to find I go downstairs, I'm looking at it, I see that the electrical plug is like the whole outlet has been flipped, right?
• 20:08
  Chantal Roberts: And I test it, it can't come back on.
• 20:12
  Chantal Roberts: See all the breakers are good, fine, great.
• 20:15
  Chantal Roberts: And I said, you know what?
• 20:18
  Chantal Roberts: I don't have the energy to mess with it, so I'm gonna call an electrician.
• 20:20
  Chantal Roberts: Called an electrician, and he goes, Yeah, you actually pulled a wire that is like 220, and it it's supposed to be 120.
• 20:30
  Chantal Roberts: So you pulled way too much, and it actually melted your outlet.
• 20:35
  Chantal Roberts: But had it not been this ground fault connector outlet, it would have melted, started a fire, and you would be in a more of a world of hurt.
• 20:44
  Chantal Roberts: And I said, So even though I did a shoddy electrical job, I still kind of did a good electrical job, and he's like, sure, whatever.
• 20:54
  William Auten: Just call me next time.
• 20:56
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, just yeah, I'll just do it next time, and it'll be and I'm like, Yeah, okay.
• 21:01
  Chantal Roberts: Okay.
• 21:01
  Chantal Roberts: So, anyway, there you go.
• 21:03
  Chantal Roberts: That that see, these things can happen.
• 21:06
  Chantal Roberts: You do a little home maintenance thinking that you're gonna save yourself some money, and you end up being like Chantal, burning your house down.
• 21:15
  William Auten: Better safe than sorry.
• 21:16
  Chantal Roberts: Exactly.
• 21:17
  Chantal Roberts: So call the professionals.
• 21:19
  William Auten: Yeah.
• 21:20
  William Auten: Um, another problem we run into is where people will use um a power strip to plug in their computer, their television, their whatever, and their space heater.
• 21:34
  Chantal Roberts: Yes.
• 21:35
  William Auten: And that's all in the middle of the room, and that's where the fire starts.
• 21:39
  William Auten: I've had several of those.
• 21:41
  William Auten: So uh do not use a power strip to run a um a heater of any kind.
• 21:47
  William Auten: Those heaters um they draw a lot of energy, a lot of electricity.
• 21:52
  William Auten: It takes a lot of power to to uh produce heat like that.
• 21:56
  William Auten: So um you know, if you plug it into an outlet.
• 21:59
  William Auten: outlet and every time it kicks on all the lights dim, it tells you there's a problem and it should be addressed.
• 22:07
  Chantal Roberts: Okay.
• 22:07
  Chantal Roberts: I do want to make one little bitty bitty bitty point about that too, because I was talking to the electrician about that.
• 22:13
  Chantal Roberts: Because again, Chantal, being the electrician that she is, had replaced bathroom lights.
• 22:21
  Chantal Roberts: And I noticed that every time I plugged in my hairdryer and turned it on or the space heater or whatever, all the lights or the new lights would flicker.
• 22:31
  Chantal Roberts: And so I wanted the electrician to take a look at those lights to make sure that I hooked them up correctly.
• 22:38
  Chantal Roberts: Because hooking up lights are not that hard.
• 22:40
  Chantal Roberts: But uh he goes I said, but by the way, I did put LED lights in there.
• 22:47
  Chantal Roberts: And he goes, oh okay well I'm going to tell you right now I don't need to look at it.
• 22:51
  Chantal Roberts: The LED lights do flicker for every step forward that we make in in advancements it's the kind of that we make a step back.
• 23:05
  Chantal Roberts: And with these LEDs they are so attuned to the fluctuations of electricity and we do have fluctuations in electricity we just never notice it with our normal incandescent lights.
• 23:19
  Chantal Roberts: We uh now see it with our LEDs and that's what you're seeing.
• 23:24
  Chantal Roberts: And I'm like ah okay well then I am a good electrician yay me.
• 23:28
  William Auten: I understand that uh LEDs actually do pulse on a they have kind of a wavelength where they it pulses faster than we can see um but it in with certain film equipment if your frame rate is set right the wrong way you'll see that flickering in your video.
• 23:48
  William Auten: Yeah yeah so so what are our adjuster talking points or investigation points that we should be telling our adjusters to be looking at so there's there's two uh things to think about the one is uh what caused the the the fire the adjuster's job is to kind of get there figure out what happened but um you really want to get a cause and origin uh professional to do that though if it's a fire and if it's two thousand dollars in damage you're probably not gonna want to spend the money on an expert to to you know do a full origin and cause investigation all right so let's let's address that I was gonna I was gonna say something about that go for it Bill well in my career it was always cause and origin yes you know we came up and you get a cause and origin guy exactly now I don't remember when it was it was probably 15 or 20 years ago I learned that they changed it no it's an origin and cause investigator because you're finding the origin and then you find the cause exactly I get it but I'm old and it's hard to break you know old habits so I slip and I say cause and origin more often than not.
• 25:08
  William Auten: Exactly.
• 25:09
  William Auten: So forgive me I will do my penance anyway.
• 25:13
  Chantal Roberts: Hey by the way I was doing a speaking gig with an origin and cause investigator talking about what they do what the adjuster is supposed to be looking for blah blah blah and I happen to mention spaulding everybody remember spaulding all the old adjusters remember spaulding none of the new adjusters know what spalding is and this is this alligatoring that you would see on wood for example or a floor and usually it means there was a high source of heat at that particular location and it's called spalding and the origin and cause person says yeah we don't use that word or that concept anymore and I'm thinking oh I had no idea this is this is another reason why just FYI you need to keep up with your education yeah the best cause and origin the best origin and cause investigators are the ones that um do maintain uh certifications and training and um and that they are actually doing some research um those are the folks that you that are going to do the best job for you.
• 26:27
  William Auten: Nonetheless the adjuster needs to kind of figure out where the fire originated and what caused it.
• 26:35
  William Auten: And the reason we do that is um first of all to make sure the insurer did not play any role in intentionally starting the fire.
• 26:42
  William Auten: That's the real the probably the most important reason.
• 26:45
  William Auten: The second most important reason is to find out if anybody else is to blame for that fire a manufacturer of something that failed or a neighbor that did something that they shouldn't have done.
• 26:56
  William Auten: A utility company that probably or that might have uh done something that they should not have done all those things are potential subrogation um outlets that you know the insurance company could recover what they've paid eventually.
• 27:10
  William Auten: So those are the two reasons uh but again the the the best way to document the file is to have experts get that investigation done because if it's just an adjuster who says well you know I think it was that outlet and I'm gonna call the outlet the company that manufactured that outlet and I'm gonna tell them what's what the first thing they're gonna do is tell show us your investigation that proves that it was ours.
• 27:35
  William Auten: Did you take any x-rays of the thing?
• 27:37
  William Auten: Did you save it?
• 27:38
  William Auten: Right has it been maintained and and uh as evidence um so best to let a professional handle that part of it the other reason uh that you want to let me step back a little bit.
• 27:57
  Chantal Roberts: Okay.
• 27:57
  William Auten: You had asked earlier about um uh or mentioned earlier about whether the insured had gotten their chimney cleaned yes so you want records to see if they did that and that sure that's important but one thing you have to understand is it doesn't matter like if they did or like you're still gonna pay the claim right well this is true.
• 28:19
  William Auten: You're not gonna like get the record uh ask them for chimney cleaning records and they say well I haven't had it cleaned in 10 years well then we're gonna deny your claim that's not how that works.
• 28:29
  Chantal Roberts: But is it lack of maintenance because because the the it could be is it a is it a maintenance issue where the insured is not maintaining their property you know because it could be so here's my theory on that and an expert out there can what's the thumb up there?
• 28:50
  William Auten: What's that about?
• 28:51
  Chantal Roberts: Oh I'm drinking so I I it oh zoom updated and I haven't turned off all of the automatic things that it does and and so like you can just hold up a thumb or whatever and it thinks I'll have to be careful which finger I hold up.
• 29:08
  Chantal Roberts: Exactly and so zoom is is like oh let me help you out and so it does automatic hand signals or whatever and I wonderful.
• 29:17
  William Auten: Yes exactly and so I just haven't turned everything off yet so if you're watching via YouTube hi let's see a thumbs up yeah for some random things okay Bill I'm sorry so the the maintenance the maintenance question so if somebody doesn't maintain their furnace or the heat the heating system or something that they don't do something they should have done and because of that there's a buildup of soot and a fire happens I think you're gonna pay that I think you owe that now if they if the if the roof isn't maintained and wears out and falls off the all the shingles literally fall off into the gutter because they're worn out that's to me a a maintenance uh uh claim that you could deny how is this different though I mean it's still kind it's not maybe wear and tear per se, but it is a maintenance issue.
• 30:07
  Chantal Roberts: If the insured has 30 or 20 year shingles and they haven't replaced them for 30 years, of course they're wore out but they also haven't been maintained.
• 30:17
  Chantal Roberts: And if the insured hasn't had their chimney swept swept and I don't know since they've lived there for seven years and all of a sudden they have a chimney fire how is this but you're you're gonna owe for resulting damage you are you are but that's that or in the in the chimney fire.
• 30:40
  William Auten: And in the chimney fire the fire is going to damage the whole house.
• 30:42
  William Auten: This is true.
• 30:43
  William Auten: In the roof issue you're gonna have leakage in the house if it's uh an HO3 you're gonna pay for the leakage in the house.
• 30:49
  William Auten: But not the roof.
• 30:51
  William Auten: But not the roof itself because it's if if if it is truly a maintenance issue.
• 30:56
  Chantal Roberts: So that's I agree we wouldn't deny the claim I'm just saying there I don't know it's not like you ever take percentages for the insured anyway like we do with third parties percent oh for liability for liability yeah yeah you wouldn't say well it's you know 50% your fault so we're only gonna no that doesn't happen on a proper first party property no it doesn't um so let's see what else oh you we were talking about maintenance is a wear and tear sudden and accidental all of those little fun things which have that exception with the exclusion for the ensuing losses.
• 31:36
  Chantal Roberts: Right so uh failure of a heating system not only causes fires but it also can result in a lack of heat in the house and what happens when you have a lack of heat in the house your sump pump pipes freeze underground i what like how do you protect that I honestly do not know you have to put them below the frost line which in where we live is three about three feet so I mean I would assume they would have done that but okay I I don't even know if they've done that how do I well they I'm gonna I'm gonna guess they haven't because obvious I'm gonna guess at that point okay anyway enough about me let's talk about me um so typical scenarios with frozen pipes heat maintenance you're absolutely right we've got to keep and and this is something that we need to to pay attention to as adjusters and I think the basic rule of thumb for for example snowbirds that go out of town or maybe people who go out of town for the weekends or whatever snowbirds I think would turn off the water and drain it.
• 32:49
  Chantal Roberts: But if you're just going out for a weekend or whatever sometimes people turn down the heat I think 55 is kind of the rule of thumb like don't go under 55 or else everything's gonna freeze.
• 33:01
  William Auten: I don't think I've ever gone that low I think 65 is the lowest I've ever gone but yeah and you have to um you have to realize that the temperature at your thermostat might be different than the temperature at the other end of the house.
• 33:15
  William Auten: You know 55 the the freezing point of water is 32 degrees Fahrenheit you're not going to set your thermostat for 32.
• 33:24
  William Auten: If you set it for 55 that might be fine but if if the west side of your house is the wind side and it's five degrees out and there's wind blowing through the basement window the little cracks in the basement when you windows closed but you've got little you've you've got cracks everybody it leaks yeah yeah uh that's where you get into um sneaky leaks and frozen pipes.
• 33:48
  William Auten: Yes if you're an adjuster and you go to a claim and the and they the insured has water damage and it's been five degrees for three days it's more than likely a frozen pipe but you you can't just assume you have to first make sure that they did reasonably maintain heat because that is a coverage issue.
• 34:11
  William Auten: You have to maintain heat under the HO3.
• 34:13
  William Auten: Right if you fail to maintain heat you you have to make a reasonable effort is what the language says.
• 34:20
  William Auten: Right.
• 34:20
  William Auten: And it's the same thing for a CP policy by the way a commercial property policy by the way and uh so the it's important that the adjuster addresses that in whatever notes or reports they have to do.
• 34:32
  William Auten: Did they maintain heat?
• 34:34
  William Auten: Yes or no it's very simple.
• 34:36
  Chantal Roberts: And and the insured of course is going to be like yeah but here's the documentation that you need to get you need to get some of the electric bills or the gas bill whichever one it is to show that all of a sudden we didn't go from $68 in November to $32 in December back up to $68 in January and our loss happened over the Christmas break.
• 35:00
  William Auten: Yeah we we get into claims like that a lot mostly it's vacant properties rentals or snowbirds.
• 35:08
  William Auten: Yeah um we had a case many many years ago where they were on some payment plan with the with a fuel delivery company um credit card changed over whatever the um the fuel company kept reaching out to the property owner saying hey we're trying to pay your bill here but we can't and those messages were ignored and we have copies of all the messages copies of all the letters the insured we determined that they did not make a reasonable effort to maintain heat in the property um the the delivery service stopped service in November the freeze damage happened in in uh late January so that's sufficient time um and we did not pay that claim yeah so yep yep yep yep um yeah and then as we talked about with the power strain on on systems we could have a power loss for example uh I had heard Nashville was out of power for quite some time but with the winter storm that had recently gone through and it's hard to mitigate in those particular instances when your insured's power is off but should they continue to leave the water dripping probably or if they can turn it off and get all the water out of the system that may be better in that particular instance um I I don't know I can't I can't say one way one very simple trick is if you um if you're going away for a week or months or whatever in the winter just turn the water off down in the down with a main shutoff it's very simple you turn it off nobody's gonna be there they don't need water anyway um that way if if there is a a heating failure um your toilets will probably freeze and there'll be a little bit of water damage there um possibly maybe not um but if the water is left on and the pipes freeze what what happens is uh in some cases the ice will block the flow of water so you won't really have a whole lot of water just yet you might have a little but then that as evidenced by my sump pump yeah and and and once it once things thaw out and that water starts to run freely it's um you know it can be very I mean I've been in homes where the water did run while the temperatures were freezing and the whole staircase was covered in ice there was a column in the basement there was a a giant tree trunk of uh icicle in the basement um you know it just destroys a house yeah and I have seen it happen in uh commercial buildings where they were vacant but the uh heat failed for whatever reason and uh it it actually it went down the elevator shaft and so that was tons of fun like how do you fix that I don't know we had uh I've had so many of them over the years oh I'm sure yeah especially up in New York apartment buildings are rough because you know you got a case where a second second floor apartment decides they're from the south they don't want to pay for the heat while they're away so they turn the heat off they turn the heat off and um the uh the pipes froze and the water did just a little damage in their unit but it completely annihilated the one below it I mean every ceiling in the place was on the floor.
• 39:00
  William Auten: Yep it was just uh man and my son my my um my stepson my oldest stepson when he went to college he was gonna come home for a uh Christmas or it was a week you know he was going to be home and uh you know he's he's a big boy now so he thought he'd be smart and save utilities so he turned off the heat before he left and he called on his way he was calling it and I was listening to the conversation on speakerphone my wife was talking with him he goes you're gonna be so proud of me to save money I turned the heat off before I left because I'm not gonna be there and I went no was it in New York or it was northern Pennsylvania oh yeah yeah yeah still cold still he he quickly turned around and went back and put the heat on so what about discovery time I mean I even that makes a difference because for example with our sump pump uh Aaron had been down in the basement earlier that day nothing was going on didn't even know that we had a problem you wouldn't know yeah uh and we got back I think from an afternoon basketball game and that was where we had a little puddle of water around the outside of the casement that went that goes around the sump pump to kind of hide it from from everything because it's not in a closet or anything.
• 40:28
  Chantal Roberts: And so yeah that's we caught it soon and and that was great.
• 40:36
  William Auten: So we have a rental property that has a crawl space and the sump pump is um you have to crawl down there you have to crawl over some ductwork to get to it it's not you can't just open a basement door and look um and we we did have a flood because the the the pump failed um and we had two backups and the both both pumps failed and the furnace is down there so it was a very costly repair.
• 41:04
  William Auten: So now I have a camera down there and I have water sensors all around it.
• 41:10
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 41:11
  William Auten: And I'll get a warning on my phone if the water sensors trigger but I can also watch the sump pump actually watch the float go up like that's what I do for fun.
• 41:21
  William Auten: I sit there and I watch the sump pump float.
• 41:23
  William Auten: But but no I I mean I can just routinely kind of check it because we have the same camera system at home.
• 41:30
  William Auten: So I'm kind of looking those cameras every once in a while anyway um but I check it as often as one would maybe wander down to their basement just to check things you know um I can do that with a camera remotely and uh it's it's right on the edge it's looking right down into the into the the sump pit and uh twice um I have uh discovered that the pump failed and I had to go down and replace it.
• 41:56
  William Auten: So um yeah.
• 41:58
  Chantal Roberts: These are great great ideas for our our insureds who are not listening to this but it anyway but you never know you never know I mean you don't um so yeah the frozen pipes are often a a big big thing and heat being the first and they're they're kind of tied in together but we also have homeowner liability where uh where you could have um slippery because I know that I always worry about this me of course I'm an adjuster so I worry about this it's snowing outside or whatever I will go out in the middle of a blizzard and clear out at least an egress kind of deal ingress egress to at least my front door because I don't know who's going to walk up to my and it'll get be covered again by the time that I get finished but I at least want to start trying and and I do I will put ice meltdown and and things so yeah.
• 43:03
  William Auten: When it comes to heating systems the claims the liability type claims that we generally see mostly involve rental properties and um or commercial properties.
• 43:14
  William Auten: Yeah so if you uh if you own a commercial space for example and you fail to maintain heat in there and the pipes freeze uh the water leaks it's probably going to damage adjacent spaces especially if you're on the second floor or third floor.
• 43:33
  William Auten: Just like you were talking about yeah we've had them we've had a you know high-rise apartment buildings 50 story building you know and something happens on the 30th floor every unit below that has has some problem.
• 43:47
  William Auten: Um so uh and and mo freeze damage claims don't generally happen in those places.
• 43:54
  William Auten: Usually the wall if there's water damage like that it's from a fire.
• 43:57
  William Auten: Um but the uh The the heat in those places generally they they keep control of that to avoid that kind of thing.
• 44:06
  William Auten: As an adjuster, you never know.
• 44:08
  William Auten: You might have some lunatic who leaves the windows open.
• 44:10
  William Auten: Um, I've seen that happen before.
• 44:12
  Chantal Roberts: I I actually have too, but as a as an adjuster, uh what I would again ask uh my insured, you again I'm thinking of like the carbon monoxide kind of deal because of the improper duct work for a a stove, like a wood-burning stove, if you've got an Airbnb and trying to be all you know, cabin and rustic and and these sorts of things, make sure that you've got uh a good carbon monoxide detector.
• 44:42
  Chantal Roberts: Like when's the last time you got that checked?
• 44:44
  Chantal Roberts: Um you don't have to have a certificate, but maybe show me where you got the receipt or something.
• 44:51
  Chantal Roberts: So that sort of thing.
• 44:54
  William Auten: So if you own a rental property and there's people in there, you have a um a higher duty of care, you you have to make sure that the place is safe.
• 45:02
  William Auten: Um, you have to make sure that the heating system is working, that it's not at risk of causing a fire or uh carbon monoxide poisoning.
• 45:10
  William Auten: Yeah, we've talked about it.
• 45:13
  Chantal Roberts: Oh, I'm sorry.
• 45:13
  Chantal Roberts: I was gonna say we've talked kind of about that with the duty to a licensee uh and you do have that higher duty because they're coming in giving you some some money and everything.
• 45:26
  Chantal Roberts: So uh that is what you as the adjuster have to be looking at and have to be asking your insured.
• 45:32
  William Auten: Yeah, and it's it's not enough to just um to just leave that up to your plumber or your heating folks to uh take care of, you know.
• 45:42
  William Auten: Right.
• 45:43
  William Auten: Make sure that if it was your own child in that space that you'd be confident that they would be safe from harm.
• 45:50
  William Auten: I've I've talked to so many property owners where some devastating claim happens and um it's horrible.
• 45:56
  William Auten: You know, they're crushed, uh these you know, people lose their lives or get injured or hurt really badly, and um, it's not something you want to deal with.
• 46:04
  William Auten: So make sure that um your your heating systems are maintained and cleaned and um running properly.
• 46:12
  William Auten: If the heating system stops running and the pipes freeze, nobody's gonna die.
• 46:16
  William Auten: But uh fire, uh fire is serious business.
• 46:20
  Chantal Roberts: Also, again, you're wanting to to make sure that they maintain that egress and ingress, egress, meaning in and out, essentially.
• 46:31
  Chantal Roberts: And and you want to salt that, making sure it's a duty to maintain that safe premises.
• 46:36
  Chantal Roberts: And as an adjuster, again, we've talked about this before.
• 46:40
  Chantal Roberts: Your landlord doesn't have to go out, or your insured doesn't have to go out in the middle of a blizzard and put down salt.
• 46:46
  Chantal Roberts: But uh, once it's over, if they happen to have those rental properties, then they should be out there salting and and clearing out.
• 46:58
  Chantal Roberts: And if it's not them, then it should be their property maintenance people.
• 47:01
  Chantal Roberts: And I think that's kind of what you were talking about with the plumber and the the whatever.
• 47:07
  William Auten: Um take take ownership of yeah, not just the real estate, but the um the safety um aspect.
• 47:15
  Chantal Roberts: Absolutely.
• 47:15
  Chantal Roberts: And you know, your guests, and we've talked about this before with liabilities, guests assume some risk just because they're there.
• 47:22
  Chantal Roberts: It's not like they can go walking in high heels on ice, or but on the flip side, again, your your your insured has to make sure that the premises is safe.
• 47:35
  William Auten: Yeah.
• 47:36
  William Auten: Yeah.
• 47:37
  William Auten: And um smoke detectors are important.
• 47:40
  William Auten: Um fire extinguishers.
• 47:42
  William Auten: Yep.
• 47:43
  William Auten: Carbon monoxide um detectors as well.
• 47:48
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 47:49
  Chantal Roberts: You know, I think carbon monoxide is is the big thing.
• 47:53
  Chantal Roberts: We have a combo in in in almost every room, I think, in our house of carbon monoxide slash fire dis uh extinguishers or uh smoke detectors.
• 48:05
  Chantal Roberts: And sometimes it it's really annoying because Chantal can't cook.
• 48:11
  Chantal Roberts: And when I do try to cook, sometimes it I will trip the smoke alarm.
• 48:17
  Chantal Roberts: Uh yeah, so awkward.
• 48:20
  Chantal Roberts: So there you go.
• 48:23
  Chantal Roberts: But there's a reason why these things are important and having that checked.
• 48:32
  Chantal Roberts: And of course, sometimes with in in this particular case, I don't have a new smoke alarm every twice a year because they suggest that you look at your smart smoke alarm at at the equinoxes, you know, summer and winter or whatever to do what anyway, you know what I'm talking about.
• 48:50
  Chantal Roberts: So I I don't have that.
• 48:52
  Chantal Roberts: This is where you just have to ask your insured and and go with yes, I check these things, I press the button, or I let my wife cook, and it goes off.
• 49:02
  Chantal Roberts: All of them um upstairs.
• 49:05
  Chantal Roberts: So we know it's okay.
• 49:07
  Chantal Roberts: Uh so yeah.
• 49:10
  William Auten: And and uh a lot of newer properties are gonna have hardwired smoke detectors, older properties probably not, still have the batteries, they still have the batteries, and the ones they sell now are 10-year, you know, battery.
• 49:22
  William Auten: So you just have to check it, uh, you know, make sure it's still working.
• 49:26
  William Auten: And uh, I believe that they give you some sort of sequential sound that if the battery is dying, it signals to you that it's time to replace the thing.
• 49:36
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 49:36
  William Auten: So yeah.
• 49:38
  Chantal Roberts: So when we're looking at these sorts of things, again, as adjusters, uh, these are some of the questions that we need to be asking.
• 49:47
  William Auten: Um again, you're asking you're asking the questions to really dig down to find out what happened.
• 49:54
  William Auten: Uh remember the two reasons.
• 49:56
  William Auten: Did the insured intentionally do it, and uh is there someone else to blame?
• 50:00
  William Auten: A lot of times a policy holder will get anxious because you start asking these questions about causation, and they think if they give the wrong answer that they're going to um, you know, be denied their claim if they didn't clean the chimney and you know, they did it a year two years ago, but they forgot to do it last year.
• 50:20
  William Auten: And oh, now my house is burned down.
• 50:22
  William Auten: Are they not going to pay my claim?
• 50:23
  William Auten: Right.
• 50:24
  William Auten: No, they're gonna pay your claim.
• 50:25
  William Auten: We just need to know what happened.
• 50:26
  Chantal Roberts: Right.
• 50:27
  Chantal Roberts: And here's the deal you could have gotten the insurer could have gotten their c the chimney swept that year and had the fire that year.
• 50:35
  Chantal Roberts: Well, maybe that's when we go after the chimney sweep because they didn't do a good job or something to that effect.
• 50:42
  Chantal Roberts: But again, this is also a very good point where we as adjusters will need to sit and explain kind of our logic behind things uh and say, hey, I I know that this may be anxiety causing, but just like the cops have to rule out the spouse in a murder.
• 51:03
  Chantal Roberts: Um not that serious, and I'm not making this flippant.
• 51:07
  Chantal Roberts: I I don't mean to be, but I need to actually know what's going on.
• 51:10
  Chantal Roberts: So I'm gonna ask you some uncomfortable questions.
• 51:13
  Chantal Roberts: And often when I I will point blank tell the insured, for example, with the fires, when fires occur, I'm gonna have to ask you some uncomfortable questions about your financial status.
• 51:25
  Chantal Roberts: And I'm gonna have to ask for bank statements and all of this to prove that you don't have the financial motive to burn your house down so that I will pay your mortgage holder.
• 51:39
  Chantal Roberts: And you and once you explain that to them, they they absolutely understand.
• 51:45
  William Auten: Yeah.
• 51:45
  William Auten: And you're gonna you're gonna ask them, did you intentionally start the fire?
• 51:49
  Chantal Roberts: You point blank ask them.
• 51:50
  Chantal Roberts: And it's a really uncomfortable question to ask.
• 51:54
  Chantal Roberts: Absolutely.
• 51:55
  William Auten: You point blank ask them, but you have to and they will scoff and they will be how dare you even suggest, you know.
• 52:04
  Chantal Roberts: You know why?
• 52:04
  Chantal Roberts: And and that's actually why I preface it by saying, I'm gonna have to ask you some really uncomfortable financial questions.
• 52:14
  Chantal Roberts: I I just point blank tell them, I don't ask the question and then explain it, I explain it kind of up front so that they don't so that it doesn't get off the rails.
• 52:25
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah.
• 52:25
  Chantal Roberts: But that's me.
• 52:26
  Chantal Roberts: I mean, maybe you do it differently, maybe it works differently for for you, but uh you know, and there's different ways to handle it.
• 52:34
  William Auten: Um one one way is to just start off with really blunt questions so that they know right off the bat that okay, he's running through these questions not because he thinks that I'm a criminal, but because he's got a list there.
• 52:47
  William Auten: Uh that's one way to handle it.
• 52:49
  William Auten: The other way to is to just softly explain to them it's this is gonna hurt a little bit.
• 52:55
  William Auten: It's gonna hurt your feelings a little bit.
• 52:58
  William Auten: But um uh, you know, however you choose to do it, just be aware that it's not always gonna go happily.
• 53:08
  William Auten: You may get uh a person who is just absolutely offended that you would ask and um and they get mad at you for it.
• 53:17
  William Auten: But that's the worst that can happen.
• 53:18
  William Auten: That's the worst that can happen.
• 53:20
  Chantal Roberts: You know, so um be sure we apply uh get all of our records uh from our insureds of who's like the electrician who's been there, who did what?
• 53:32
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, exactly.
• 53:34
  Chantal Roberts: Um so that you're not trying to accidentally burn down your house like I I am trying to do actively.
• 53:39
  Chantal Roberts: Um oops.
• 53:41
  Chantal Roberts: And yeah, so uh you would also get like the HVAC installers, maintenance contractors, all of that kind of of thing.
• 53:51
  Chantal Roberts: Uh, because you're looking for subrogation at that point, um, improper insulation, installation.
• 53:58
  William Auten: Uh so uh many years ago we had a fire where there was some uh work being done.
• 54:03
  William Auten: General contractor had a lot of subcontractors there.
• 54:06
  William Auten: The electrician was there working all day.
• 54:08
  William Auten: Everybody thought this had to be an electrical fire.
• 54:12
  William Auten: Let's talk to the electrician.
• 54:13
  William Auten: Nobody figured, let's ask the plumber what they were doing.
• 54:17
  William Auten: Plumber, plumber has water, right?
• 54:20
  William Auten: Uh you know, electrician has sparks.
• 54:22
  William Auten: So but the plumber also has gas.
• 54:25
  William Auten: They have a torch.
• 54:26
  William Auten: Yeah.
• 54:26
  William Auten: They were uh soldering um some copper up in the attic that day.
• 54:33
  William Auten: And okay.
• 54:35
  Chantal Roberts: What is it by the way, FYI?
• 54:37
  Chantal Roberts: Uh, I've seen two claims lately where there's been blowtorches on roofs where the insured went to lunch.
• 54:47
  Chantal Roberts: So our insured is a roofer, went to lunch with the blowtorch on.
• 54:51
  Chantal Roberts: Left it on, left it on, dude.
• 54:54
  Chantal Roberts: What are you thinking?
• 54:56
  Chantal Roberts: Okay, anyway, sorry, go ahead.
• 54:58
  Chantal Roberts: Yes, plumbers, blowtorch.
• 55:00
  William Auten: Torch torch down roofing is still a thing, but man, it's dangerous on a especially a residential place because you've got open eaves and stuff.
• 55:08
  William Auten: Um, I mean, the last the one that comes to mind is uh you had a uh pitched roof that came over a flat roof and there was an open eave underneath it, and they torched it down, and the you know, the the heat got up into the soffit and didn't they didn't really think much of they didn't smell smoke, nothing.
• 55:27
  William Auten: They got their their job done, they were packing up to leave, and all of a sudden they started to smell smoke, and by then it was too late.
• 55:35
  William Auten: You know, it just once it gets um into that air space and the air starts moving, and you got all the dry wood of the rafters and everything, it just uh decimated that house.
• 55:46
  Chantal Roberts: So um yeah assuming that fires are quote, just accidents, end quote, uh is is one of the things that adjusters can get wrong.
• 55:56
  Chantal Roberts: Like I said, there they can be the the one that I was talking about earlier with the ash fire where the insured was you know checking the the ash and taking it outside in a Home Depot bucket or whatever.
• 56:10
  Chantal Roberts: Should they have put some water in it?
• 56:13
  Chantal Roberts: Sure.
• 56:14
  William Auten: Um well I think that was accidental.
• 56:17
  William Auten: It was an accident, that's what I'm saying.
• 56:19
  William Auten: And on purpose, you know.
• 56:20
  William Auten: So an on purpose would be someone who wants to burn their place down because they can't afford their mortgage.
• 56:25
  William Auten: Exactly.
• 56:26
  Chantal Roberts: Which which uh we have seen.
• 56:28
  Chantal Roberts: And by the way, adjusters, something to consider, and it just strikes you wrong and rubs you wrong.
• 56:36
  Chantal Roberts: And I get it, I totally get it.
• 56:38
  Chantal Roberts: I had a claim where we had the insured buying a gas can with uh in from Kmart back when Kmart was there with the debit card.
• 56:50
  Chantal Roberts: So we had the receipt and everything, and going next door to the gas station, paying for cat uh gas and cash, we couldn't.
• 57:01
  Chantal Roberts: I mean, that's the closest we could get to to the insured burning his own structure, but and we knew that he was behind in his mortgage and everything, but he had an innocent uh wife and the innocent mortgage holder, and we actually had to make payment to those two, yeah.
• 57:22
  Chantal Roberts: Uh so just because it's arson doesn't mean that we don't pay that claim.
• 57:28
  Chantal Roberts: FYI, that's something really important to talk about, yeah, or mention at least.
• 57:35
  William Auten: But you still have to make sure law enforcement is in they haven't already uh gone down that path because we've had a lot of cases where law enforcement comes in and decides that the fire is undetermined.
• 57:47
  William Auten: Our ONC folks go in there and start asking questions, and then we do some financial background, and before you know it, you know, we've got a different story to tell.
• 57:56
  William Auten: It's important to get law enforcement involved in the DA.
• 58:00
  Chantal Roberts: So yep.
• 58:01
  Chantal Roberts: So gotta preserve our evidence.
• 58:04
  Chantal Roberts: By the way, guys, uh send out your letters to the people that you want to subrogate early, often, especially before you cut that electrical outlet out, before you take the heater or whatever.
• 58:21
  Chantal Roberts: Uh, it's always a good idea to have those people's origin and cause experts with your person's origin and cause experts when that stuff gets taken, because that way they can't say spoiliation.
• 58:35
  William Auten: Right.
• 58:35
  William Auten: Which is everybody comes to the party and uh everybody who wants to be involved is involved because um Absolutely.
• 58:46
  William Auten: If you think they're they have some contribution later and they didn't get to, you know, participate, um, they could uh they could argue spoliation.
• 58:55
  Chantal Roberts: So yeah, yeah.
• 58:57
  Chantal Roberts: And and documentation, documentation diah, you and I talk about that all the time about you know doing that and and making sure that all of the documentation is is there.
• 59:09
  Chantal Roberts: So key takeaways?
• 59:12
  William Auten: Key takeaways.
• 59:13
  William Auten: Um uh let's see, heating systems in buildings are um they're a living, breathing kind of a system that has to be uh taken care of and maintained, and it's not not just something that happens in the background.
• 59:30
  William Auten: And as the weather gets colder, that system works harder and burns more fuel.
• 59:35
  William Auten: And um, you know, if you are on a system that has a finite amount of fuel that needs to be refilled, propane or fuel oil or whatever it is, uh you have to be diligent.
• 59:46
  William Auten: Um, you can't just set it and forget it.
• 59:49
  William Auten: Right.
• 59:49
  William Auten: So um new homeowners, uh find out, learn about your heating system and what needs to be done.
• 59:56
  William Auten: Uh our particular system is in an old house and the steam the steam and uh uh we we have a steam system, not a hot a hot water system.
• 1:00:06
  William Auten: And with steam systems, there's um uh some of the steam escapes.
• 1:00:11
  William Auten: Oh uh and the water level drops.
• 1:00:13
  William Auten: And when the water level drops below a certain level, it won't fire.
• 1:00:17
  Chantal Roberts: Right.
• 1:00:17
  William Auten: So if it doesn't fire, then you have no heat.
• 1:00:20
  William Auten: So we have to every two weeks or so we have to add some water.
• 1:00:24
  Chantal Roberts: Um that's kind of annoying.
• 1:00:26
  William Auten: I know it is tough.
• 1:00:27
  William Auten: Uh when if we go away, we have to employ um a relative to come.
• 1:00:32
  William Auten: Um again, I've got that on a remote system too, where I can monitor temperature in the house.
• 1:00:37
  William Auten: If I see it goes below, I give a call.
• 1:00:39
  William Auten: Hey, can you go put some water in my system?
• 1:00:42
  William Auten: We used to have an automatic fill.
• 1:00:44
  William Auten: Um, anyway, it's a long story.
• 1:00:47
  William Auten: We we had that taken out when the new new furnace was put in, and I think it was a mistake, but anyway.
• 1:00:53
  Chantal Roberts: Oh, anyway, it's bygones.
• 1:00:56
  Chantal Roberts: But you know what?
• 1:00:57
  Chantal Roberts: Speaking of evidence disappears a lot, and it did, I shouldn't say a lot, it disappears quickly, is what I'm trying to say when there's a fire.
• 1:01:06
  Chantal Roberts: Especially if it's like a house fire or a commercial structure or something to that effect, because you may be having the roof open to the elements.
• 1:01:16
  Chantal Roberts: So it's important to get out there and do your investigation quickly.
• 1:01:23
  William Auten: It gets disturbed by firefighters, it gets disturbed by investigators who maybe uh don't know or don't care about what they're looking for something specific.
• 1:01:35
  William Auten: And the in the meantime, we had a we had a claim uh recently that involved uh batteries from electric cordless electrical things.
• 1:01:45
  William Auten: And um the investigators that were there were looking for electrical fire in the walls and everything, it completely ignoring the center of the floor where this unit was that we suspected started the thing.
• 1:01:59
  William Auten: So that got moved around and kicked and shoveled and because they were and covered with debris because they were pulling things down, and and um it can it can be tough.
• 1:02:10
  Chantal Roberts: A a colleague of mine, a friend of mine, Shannon Martin, who just recently wrote an article about a gentleman who suffered a house fire.
• 1:02:19
  Chantal Roberts: Well, the the poor guy, I feel really bad for him, also suffered three losses, three subsequent losses after the house fire because people were breaking into the vacant home now.
• 1:02:34
  William Auten: The damaged home.
• 1:02:34
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, the damaged home and stealing copper pipes, stealing his clothes, like his shoes and and things, which I feel really bad for those people stealing shoes that have been uh who that's been through a fire because it's been smoked.
• 1:02:49
  Chantal Roberts: But I mean, if you gotta have clothes, uh how horrible is it?
• 1:02:53
  Chantal Roberts: Anyway, society, not about society anyway, but the point is these structures are are open.
• 1:03:04
  Chantal Roberts: And by the way, guys, you y'all can hire a fencing company to come out and put a fence up.
• 1:03:11
  Chantal Roberts: Not that that would probably stop a person going out and vandalizing to steal copper pipes, but uh you know, for building or maybe a security guard or whatever, that can be part of the claim.
• 1:03:23
  Chantal Roberts: Don't think that it can't be.
• 1:03:26
  William Auten: Yeah, you'd have to have a reasonable argument that there's a risk there.
• 1:03:30
  Chantal Roberts: And um well, obviously this guy does after three thefts, but it's he's a homeowner's, and I don't see a homeowner's policy really doing that, except maybe putting up a fence.
• 1:03:42
  Chantal Roberts: But anyway, FYI, you you are allowed to kind of think of other ways to protect the property or help the insured protect the property.
• 1:03:52
  Chantal Roberts: Anyway, uh also tell us what y'all have done.
• 1:03:57
  Chantal Roberts: I mean we learn as much from you as you learn from us.
• 1:04:02
  Chantal Roberts: So drop some notes, drop some comments, share tell your friends.
• 1:04:08
  William Auten: Tell your friends, tell your policyholders if you're an agent and um uh have them listen to some of the things we talk about too, because um a lot of what we talk about in these chats, we actually talk about with policyholders as we're trying to ed educate them as to what is involved in the process on the first party or third party side.
• 1:04:31
  Chantal Roberts: Right.
• 1:04:31
  William Auten: Um, they don't really understand why we would be asking the questions we're asking or asking for certain types of documentation that we're asking, because in their world, well, that would never happen.
• 1:04:43
  Chantal Roberts: Exactly.
• 1:04:44
  William Auten: That could never happen.
• 1:04:45
  Chantal Roberts: Exactly.
• 1:04:46
  William Auten: Believe me, it happened, you know, the stuff that we see happen, it's just bizarre.
• 1:04:50
  William Auten: Um it's the stuff of novels in some cases.
• 1:04:56
  Chantal Roberts: I know it's so scary.
• 1:04:58
  Chantal Roberts: Uh so we are gonna be coming back in two weeks.
• 1:05:03
  Chantal Roberts: Next episode will drop on Thursday, February 26th.
• 1:05:08
  Chantal Roberts: Uh, I believe, no, I think we we will still be talking a little bit about winter, and it'll be contractors uh with we'll be experiencing winter, I know that.
• 1:05:19
  Chantal Roberts: Yeah, still, yes, in February.
• 1:05:21
  Chantal Roberts: Uh contractors, snow removal, liability, third-party liability, that sort of thing.
• 1:05:27
  Chantal Roberts: So uh be sure to tune in for that as well.
• 1:05:32
  William Auten: Oh, we we can talk about two New York specific things uh the Espinol Doctrine and uh the Avoid Act, which Oh, yes, this is something, by the way, guys.
• 1:05:43
  Chantal Roberts: If y'all don't follow Bill, which I know y'all do, you did a whole eight day blog series on that, right?
• 1:05:50
  Chantal Roberts: Right, yeah.
• 1:05:51
  Chantal Roberts: So super, super interesting read about what the Avoid Act is is going to be doing.
• 1:05:56
  William Auten: And how if you're not in New York, it might be a little boring.
• 1:05:59
  William Auten: If you are in New York still boring but informative.
• 1:06:02
  William Auten: Uh but yeah, it's a weird change to the law that if you've got a third party claim, um you have some time constraints now.
• 1:06:11
  William Auten: So yeah, it does change the way adjusters are gonna have to deal with those.
• 1:06:15
  Chantal Roberts: So absolutely.
• 1:06:16
  Chantal Roberts: So uh that is it.
• 1:06:19
  William Auten: Right on.
• 1:06:19
  Chantal Roberts: Okay, we'll see you later, Bill.
• 1:06:21
  William Auten: You have a great day and stay warm.
• 1:06:23
  Chantal Roberts: You too.
• 1:06:24
  Chantal Roberts: Bye.
• 1:06:25
  William Auten: Thanks for joining us on the Art of Adjusting podcast, where we talk about life as an insurance adjuster.
• 1:06:31
  William Auten: Hit that subscribe button real quick and tell all of your adjuster friends to check this out as well.
• 1:06:35
  William Auten: For independent adjusting services, go to www.autin.claims.
• 1:06:40
  William Auten: And for anyone interested in working as an independent liability adjuster, go to the contact us tab to join our roster.
• 1:06:48
  Chantal Roberts: So this wraps up another Art of Adjusting podcast.
• 1:06:52
  Chantal Roberts: If you enjoyed this podcast or this episode, please give us five stars and a review.
• 1:06:57
  Chantal Roberts: It does help the algorithm pick us up.
• 1:07:00
  Chantal Roberts: In the meantime, you can contact me at theartofadjusting.com for consulting and training purposes.