Latest / Beautifully Complex / 335: Navigating Existential "Crises" with Neurodivergent Kids, with Matthew Fishleder

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335: Navigating Existential "Crises" with Neurodivergent Kids, with Matthew Fishleder · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: It is uncomfortable not to know what we're here for.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: It is uncomfortable to think about being mortal, about life
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: being limited and temporary. These are scary things. And just
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: to speak to our own experiences to some extent, broadly
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: because kids don't always want us to go into detail
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: about our deep emotions about our past experiences, but broadly speaking,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: to find some space to validate what kids are going
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: through because it is uncomfortable stuff.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: if you want more support, join our free community at
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex, everybody.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I am excited today to have a therapist Matthew Fish
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: letter with me and we're going to talk about a
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: topic that I went through with my own kid several
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: years ago that I think a lot of our nerd
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: divergent kids find themselves in this place at some moment
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: in time and parents don't know what to do to
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: help because it can feel really heavy and sometimes dark.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: And so we're going to talk about kind of how
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: to navigate these existential crises that sometimes are nerdivergent. Teens
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I would imagine even young adults have. But Matthew, will
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: you start by letting everybody know who you are and
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: what you do.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Sure? So, I'm a psychotherapist, I'm a licensed marriage and
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: family therapist. I'm a parent myself. I'm a neurodivergent person.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I'm licensed to practice psychotherapy in Maryland. In California, I
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: work with adults often parts that are navigating anxiety, identity,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: and the deeper questions that come with being human. I
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: can talk more about what that looks like. I feel
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: like we'll touch on it along the way.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: We'll kind of get there. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: think the existential crisis and I don't know if crisis
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: is the right word, but I'm sure we'll navigate that
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: together in this conversation as well, is sort of part
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: of the human experience for a lot of people, and
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: it can be really difficult, you know, as human beings,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: we all have struggle at times we all have differences,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: we navigate the world, we take in the world differently,
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: and sometimes our kids get into these places. I know
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: for my own kid, it was kind of this loop
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and when he felt like he couldn't get out of
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: that loop or couldn't get unstuck, it got really heavy
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: and really difficult. And fortunately he was working with a
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: therapist some I don't think he was really engaged that point, honestly,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: but it was really difficult. So I'm really wanting to
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: understand where we go as a parent. What can we
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: do that would be helpful. But let's start by really
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: defining what as existential crisis is, and if you want
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: to change that terminology, feel free to do that as well.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing, the word crisis is often thought of
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: as being kind of when something's at a catastrophic level,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: and in psychological terminology or even in the terminology of existentialism,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the crisis is referring to kind of a turning point
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: or a potential pressure point in development. So an existential
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: crisis isn't always a sign that something's wrong. It can
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: be a sign that a young person's kind of waking
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: up to life's deeper questions. Yeah, in that sense, it's development.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: That's not a disorder. It's not a true crisis. They're
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: in existential crises. Someone can be in a psychological crisis.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Someone can be at risk of not being safe. But gotcha,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: the term crisis. It's sort of the psychological turning point
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: when someone's really starting to ask themselves those big questions,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: like what's the point of all this? Who am I?
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: How long will I be here? What happens after I die?
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: It's not just about being like sad or confused about
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: starting to get in touch with the deeper truths about
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: being human or being alive on the world.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you if kind of
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: this search for purpose also is in there would also
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: be included?
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, Who am I? What am I going to
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: get out of all of this? What is going to
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: give me a feeling of fulfillment and purpose?
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And where do you see this sort of start
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: start to ramp up? Maybe are there sort of signals
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: for parents that would say, oh, we might be getting
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: to a point where are they're really struggling with this,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: with these thoughts, with these questions.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: It's hard to say, because kids of any age can
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: vary in how much they're talking to parents, if you're
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: hearing questions like why am I going to college? Or
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: what's the purpose of all of this? Or a kiddo
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: talking about a sense of purposelessness. Of meaninglessness could also
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: look like kids that are withdrawing from friendships or social interactions,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: kids that are struggling in classes, struggling with grades, or
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: in school. He's not necessarily a sign that your kid
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: is losing touch with their goals. It's a touch that
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: their brain is kind of reorganizing and reevaluating what am
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: I doing all of this for?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: So some of those questions then maybe are a signal
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: to us to have conversations with them if they're open
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: to it.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: To have conversations with them, to ask if they'd like
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: to have a conversation with somebody if not with a parent,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: with a counselor with someone at their college, with a
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: college advisor, with someone in the community. But yeah, it's
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: these big realities of being a person that these kids
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: are often coming into contact with, and especially for neurodiversent kiddos,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: having a sense of the challenge of kind of organizing
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: the thoughts in such a way that they're able to
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: really make header tails out of it. It can be
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: disorienting in and of itself. And when there's a kiddo
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: that or young adult that is having a harder time
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: maintaining focus even and just in their own thoughts can
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: be harder to process.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't really thought about the fact that that
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: executive function challenge that a lot of neurodivergent folks have
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: would also make it difficult to sort of work through
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: all these thoughts that you're having and trying to find answers.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I hadn't even really thought about that. That's such a
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: good point.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: And that's a tough one, because a kid can find
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: themselves in the midst of trying to piece this together,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: and a bus could go buy outside the window and
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: suddenly there's a sort of reverie about what's going on
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: over there. In any number of ways, that the thoughts
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: can get derailed, or even that the process can get
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: the wires crossed internally.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Right, And I had read a statistic years ago that
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: it's more common to have this level of kind of
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: deep thinking about meaning in kids who are also gifted.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Do you think that still holds true?
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: I do. I do, And that there can be a
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: degree of like hyper focus on something that once a
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: kid's brain starts to get wind of these existential realities
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: in the world around us, that they can get more
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: focused on it in trying to understand stand it. And
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: depending on what they read, for example, they may find
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: some existential writer that was more hopeful about meaning being
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: something that we create, something that we discover and uncover
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: with time, or something that's a bit more nihilistic that
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: there is no meaning to be found. And those are
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: kind of places where we can diverge into a more
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: hopeful or more cynical sort of attitude, especially for neurodivergent
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: folks who who might dive into something so they want
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: to learn more about it, read more about it.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, with more technology now they have more access to information,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: but they have access to lots of different viewpoints, and
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: certainly an optimistic viewpoint, it would be more helpful for
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: a teenager in development who's trying to figure it out
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: and find their way. I know that you talk about
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: how an existential question can really be healthy growth and
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: not actually a problem. Do you want to talk a
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: little bit more about that and how we, as the
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: caring adult in their world, can lean into that same
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: sort of attitude and mindset about it.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: These existential questions, who am I? What does it mean
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: to be alive in the world, to be able to
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: some degree make my own choices and to want those
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: choices to lead to a meaningful life. These are uncomfortable questions.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: These give rise to certain kinds of anxiety. I like
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: to call them existential anxiety, not my term. And it
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: can be uncomfortable for the kids asking the questions. It
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: can be uncomfortable for the adults to whom the questions
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: are being posed. Well, if my kid asked me, how
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: do I live a meaningful life? And I'm in the
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: midst of let's say, being Sandwich generation, caring for the
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: generation above me, the generation below me, my parents, my kids,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering some of these same questions in a very
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: different context. So as parents understanding the questions themselves and
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: the discomfort with the presence of the uncertainty about these things,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: not having the answers to the question, it can give
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: us a window into what things might be like for
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: our kids, and it can give us a window into
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: how as parents, finding that centeredness in being aware of
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: what's going on for us can help us to connect
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: with the kid that's in front of us asking these questions,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: even just to say it is uncomfortable not to know
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: what we're here for. It is uncomfortable to think about
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: being mortal, about life being limited and temporary. These are
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: scary things. And just to speak to our own experiences
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: to some extent broadly because kids don't always want us
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: to go into detail about our deep emotions about our
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: past experiences, broadly speaking, to find some space to validate
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: what kids are going through because it is uncomfortable stuff.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very uncomfortable stuff. I can feel it in
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: my body as we're talking about it, like ooh, I
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: don't know. It's hard to think about these things, I
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: think for most people. But then we add like that uncertainty,
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: as you said, can bring with an anxiety and a
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: lot of our neurodiversent kids crave predictability and certainty, and
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: so this is way outside of that for them. That
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I think adds another layer maybe of discomfort or anxiety
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: or struggle with maybe feeling stuck in that place. And
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of us like don't do well with uncertainty.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: I don't do well with uncertainty, Like I would rather
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: know these things, But how do we teach them that,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: like some things sometimes are unknowable and how to sit
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: with that.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: We're in certain ways wired to be uncomfortable with uncertainty
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: as humans, I think, and wired to try to move
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: uncertainty towards more information, towards certainty. Uncertainty is uncomfortable because
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: we're drawn to find some solution. We're drawn to find
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: how can I get more information to understand what I
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: can do? And that's essentially what kids are doing when
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: they're coming to parents or others with these existential questions,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: and especially like you mentioned, those that are on a
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: neurodivergent path themselves, can really rely on knowing what's coming next,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: understanding why am I doing what I'm doing, and it
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: can help to get through that thing. And when it
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: comes to why am I doing this at all and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: not having a concrete answer to it that there's real
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: buy into, it can be really it can be really uncomfortable.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: So just validating that it is uncomfortable. I think of
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: something that I that I went over with my son.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: He's six now, but I think he was probably four.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: He would ask me a question and I would say,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know, not necessarily a deep existential thing. But
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: why is this this way in the world or how
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: does this work? I don't know. And he would say, well,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know either, And I would say, we don't
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: know together. It's a hard thing not to know. And
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: here we are, we're both not knowing what the answer
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: to this is.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. I like that together piece that you put
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: in there.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Now it's not it's not in isolation. And he would say,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I like not knowing with your daddy as comfortable as
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: we can possibly be, and not knowing it's nice not
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: to know with someone else.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that togetherness makes such a difference.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it doesn't necessarily take away from the scariness
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: of not knowing. It may diffuse it a little bit,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: kind of disarms it a little bit that like, okay,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: if I don't know, and that's scary, but also this
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: other person doesn't know and they're scared, but they're also
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: okay in this moment and they can stay present and
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: connected with me. Maybe not knowing is a little bit
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: less unsafe then it feels maybe it's tolerable mm hmm.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: And it's an adult not knowing sometimes that too, is
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: like I'm only a kid, but an adult doesn't even know,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: and maybe give them some relief that maybe they're not
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: supposed to know this thing yet, maybe you know, or
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: maybe it is a truly unknowable thing. But yeah, that
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: sense of like, let's not know together. It feels like
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: such a relief to know that somebody else can also
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: have that feeling and be okay, but be in it
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: with you and you're not alone in it.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And it's a lot of what I do in therapy
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: is finding pathway to be in that place of not
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: knowing with my clients, whether they be young neurodiversion kids
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: or older adults in between. People often will come to
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: therapy looking for answers, looking for some kind of rescue
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: from what's going on inside, and in part recognizing I
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: don't have the answers, I can be here for the
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: not knowing and we cannot know together what to do
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: about this. That can be a really powerful place, whether
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: with my own kid or with people that I'm helping,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: because it's hard not to know. We're in a big picture,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of not knowing going on right now.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable, very yeah.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Very uncomfortable. Yeah, I think a lot of us are
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: sitting with the discomfort right now and trying to regain
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: that ability of being able to sit in the fire
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: kind of.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: And we're all here listening to this podcast not knowing
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: together and it's confusing.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that doesn't make it go away as much
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: as we want it to.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just not much you wish for someone to
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: come and say the unknown is no longer. We know
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all for certain. Wouldn't that be great? Maybe not?
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I mean there's some beauty in the in the journey
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: at least to discovering things and figuring them out things
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: that are completely uncertain and unknowable. Maybe there's not as
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: much joy in that or in that path. But yeah,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: And then when neurodivergent kids, we're also adding this layer
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: of the fact that a lot of them feel things
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: more deeply and maybe notice things even that others might
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: not notice. Something that I might not see. All the
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: time my kid sees it or sees a different perspective
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: or ask a different question. I thought of things like that,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: and could that be amplifying what happening for them when
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: they're asking these big questions when they're sort of struggling
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: with what their path looks like or what the meaning is.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can add to the intensity of call it
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: groundlessness of if there's nothing underneath me, where do I go?
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: And it can add to the weight of that feeling. Absolutely.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: shared existential journey that you talk about between kids and parents.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: When I saw that, I was like, Ooh, that could
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: have been good to know way back when, right Like,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I didn't think about the fact that we could sort
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: of have this journey together. I was thinking about, Oh,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: this is so hard. He is really I mean I
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: think he was depressed or close to depressed, Like it
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: was really really difficult, and it was something I hadn't
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: thought about. So I would love for you to kind
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: of walk us through what that looks like. I think
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: you've talked to about it a little bit in saying
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: like we can not know together what other parts of
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: it are there?
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I think really comes through in the idea that we
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: can grow our connections with our kids when we are
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: not focusing on fixing, but we're working on accompanying them
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: in the nut knowing where are they? We try to
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: sit with them and look out their window with them,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: kind of the window of their journey. When we walk
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: beside them in their questions without being focused as parents
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: on giving them the answers, on fixing the presence of
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: the question. That's where the real connection and growth can
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: happen for both the kid and the parents.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would think that connection would alleviate some
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: of the aloneness that someone might feel when they're having
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: these big questions what's the meaning for me? Right where
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: am I supposed to be going? One of'm a I
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: supposed to be doing? Those sort of things can feel
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: automatically super alone. So just having that person to feel
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: like they're walking with you or just sitting with you.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: I wrote down fixing as you were talking, not fixing,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: because that's our instinct as parents. We want to fix,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: We want to lead because we want our kids to
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: be happy, but that's not always the best way.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: And noticing the discomfort that we have as parents before
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: we respond to our kids can be incredibly helpful when
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: we're able to do it. When we can notice in
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: ourselves where the discomfort is. When we can regulate ourselves,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: that gives us a more regulated and more centered jumping
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: off point to really connect with and hear our kids
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: and from there be with them alongside them as they're
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: trying to navigate these questions, as they're trying to find
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: their own answers for themselves. I'm thinking we were talking
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: this is I think a funny anecdote. We were talking
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: about the wish for someone to just come and give
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: us the answer, the wish for someone to just tell
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: us what is the meaning. And this came up a
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: few weeks ago with somebody who brought up the sort
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: of the metaphor of I wish that Ed McMahon, may
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: this may be dating us.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I wish then.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Would just knock on my door and show up with
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: a check that tells me the next thing I should
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: do with my life and give me absolute clarity that
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: this is going to be fulfilling, This is going to
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: fill me up. And what we arrived at in talking
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: through that metaphor was that in the absence of that
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Ed McMahon at our doorstep, finding the little Ed McMahon
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: inside and listening to him, finding that piece inside that's
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: scared of not knowing and that can find there's some
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: sense of direction for the next best.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Thing, the next best thing, the.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Next best thing in the sense of the next thing
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I can do that's the best among the options. Mm hm.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: And you were talking about regulation. I'm wondering about pulling
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: the body in because we think that you know, we're
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: having questions. It's a mental mental health thing, but our
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: body is what triggers us to feel unsafe or safe.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: And when we have these questions and there we don't
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: have answers. We're feeling unsafe, we're just regulated. We're just
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: wondering if there are things that we can do, like
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: somatic exercises, regulation exercises. Could those help also with getting
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: through this period.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: For parents and for kids. Yeah, but in the sense
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of parents starting from noticing their dysregulation, their sense of
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: like ickiness and discomfort, the awareness of that, the noticing
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: of that is a starting point of kind of separating
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: from it, getting to a place where we can make
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: a choice about what did you next? And by noticing, oh,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling tightness in my stomach, my heart rates increasing,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: my palms are sweating. By noticing what's going on in
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: our bodies, we can be able to then make a
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: choice about what we're doing with our bodies. With the body,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: and that has the effect of slowing down the stress
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: response in the brain. It creates a kind of loop.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: It's the standing one of the standing theories about this
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: that the brain dysregulates the body, and the brain notices
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: that the body is disregulated and further disregulates the body.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: And when we can notice that we're in that loop,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: we interrupt it. And when we can say I'm going
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: to take three deep breaths, necessarily counting or doing it
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: a certain way, but I'm gonna breathe in and breathe out,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: and breathe in and breathe out. One coworker used to
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: ask me when they saw that I was disregulated and
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: I was working in a clinical case management job, used
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: to ask me, Matthew, are your feet on the floor,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: And I would look at the floor, Yeah, let me
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: check there they are. Something relatively simple can help us
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: to feel more centered and present and aware of what's
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: happening in our body, and that creates that pathway to
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: make more choices about how we're responding. So when we're
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable being asked these big questions from our kids, when
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: we can take a deep breath for ourselves, we can
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: ask ourselves probably inside where are my feet are they
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: on the ground. That actually allows more blood to the
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: areas of the brain where you can select how you
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: want to respond to your kid, as opposed to saying,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I don't know, go do your laundry.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, that reactive response.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that's a big question, man, what's going on?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Such good stuff. And I think connection to you, like,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: if we can lean into connect more of our kid
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: really fostering that relationship, that will help as well. It's
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: not a direct I'm going to do this and I'm
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: going to see an outcome with what you're struggling with,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: but it settles the nervous system. Connection is regulating, you know,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: we know that that sense of we're on the same team,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: we're doing it together, as you were talking about earlier.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: And there's so many ways that we can try, just
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: little small things. Five minutes of connection. You know, most
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: teens will tolerate a few minutes at least, especially if
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: you're asking about something they're interested in, right, But you know,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: what is a connection point that you can weave in
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: that can really help as well? A lot of the
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: stuff I didn't know back then that I do know. Now,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: I can think of a lot of ways that you know,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I wish I had had to focus on regulation and
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: just regulation, but that connection is really so so valuable.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd say a big takeaway is in recognizing that
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: these questions aren't something to solve, we can contextualize them
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: as invitations to connect. When a kid is talking about
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: these big questions, these are invitations to connect. And when
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: we can regulate through our own anxiety, our own discomfort,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: we can help our kids to approach these questions not
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: from that reactive place, not from a place where we
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: unintentionally might add to their anxiety, but where we can
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: connect with them, foster that connection in the not knowing
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: and in the fact that that uncertainty is uncomfortable. But
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: we can get through that uncertainty.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is tough because we're wired to pay attention
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: to that discomfort and to try to avoid it to
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: protect ourselves. So we're trying to override all this nature
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: within us and our biology to do that. But it
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: is possible. We just have to go at it with
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: attention and take some of these pauses and breaths and
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: regulating moments.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: As you were describing and remembering that we don't need
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the perfect answer, We just need to.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Be there a good reminder. Yeah, we let everybody know
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: where they can find you to maybe connect work with you,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: learn more.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I welcome contact questions about what I've talked about
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: or people that are looking for support. They can find
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: me at growingpresent dot com.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Awesome, and I will link that up in the show
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: notes for everyone. I appreciate you being here and sharing
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: in this tough conversation. Like these conversations are not easy
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: to have. When we think about things that are difficult,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: it can create responses in our own nervous systems, but
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: this is how we get through them. This is how
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: we help others to be able to sit with that
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: discomfort too. So I really appreciate you being here and
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: sharing some of your wisdom and your time with us.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me, Penny, It's pleasure.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: I will see everybody in the next episode. Take good care.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: I see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work and
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: you don't have to do it alone. If you found
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: this episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: and leave a quick review so others can find this
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: support too. When you're ready for next steps, The Regulated
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Kid's Project is here with the tools, coaching, and community
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: more info at regulated kids dot com.