Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Elliot about his choice of The Gunfighters (1/4)

Transcript

Talks to Elliot about his choice of The Gunfighters (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blood pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:37
  Welcome back to a Hamster with a Blood pen knife, the Doctor Who
• 0:41
  commentary podcast. Now, I did some terrible jokes
• 0:45
  the first time I did that, but I'm not going to say them again
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  because unfortunately I neglected to press record, but
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  so here we are on Take two. Hello Elliot, How are you today?
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  Hi, it's good though, because I can steal all the jokes and use
• 0:58
  them as my own now. Yeah, I'm I'm good.
• 1:03
  Thank you for thank you for having me back on and so soon
• 1:05
  after my first strictly. It's nice to be here.
• 1:09
  Do. You know, do you not ever, you
• 1:10
  know, on your own podcast, which we're going to talk about in a
• 1:12
  second, you sort of you do a recording of some of them and
• 1:15
  you think, oh, I think there's gold there.
• 1:17
  I think there's more to be mined.
• 1:19
  Sometimes we, yeah, sometimes we record and I just want to just
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  want to do the next one. Sometimes it's exciting to just
• 1:24
  carry on, keep keep talking about it, but when do I ever get
• 1:27
  the opportunity to talk about the gunfighters?
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  Well we're your Co host from Come along pond not watch the
• 1:33
  gunfighters. Eventually we'll do it.
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  We'll do everything eventually and I'll make the gunfighters
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  top priority. Well, I've just named your
• 1:40
  podcast there. You please immediately tell
• 1:44
  everybody about it and why it's so fabulous.
• 1:47
  Yes, so I am 1/2 of Coverlon Pond, a doctor discussion
• 1:51
  podcast. We talk about mostly new who
• 1:54
  with some sprinklings of classic who in there, but we are
• 1:57
  essentially a chronological watch along podcast and it
• 2:02
  started as very serious analysis and now we just supposed to talk
• 2:04
  about things that we find funny and the camp outrageousness of
• 2:08
  every episode. If there's if there's new stuff
• 2:10
  coming out, we talk about that too.
• 2:12
  So we've done shoot his first series and most recently we've
• 2:16
  done Joyce the world, but we do all sorts.
• 2:18
  Newest episode covered out is a Torchwood focused episode.
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  So we got it all. We got it all.
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  And of course, you're there and she's there too.
• 2:28
  It's a wonderful combination. I was listening, thinking what
• 2:30
  fabulous chemistry the pair of you have.
• 2:32
  And I think you're being a bit too unkind to yourselves because
• 2:36
  I'll listen to your Joyce to the World episode.
• 2:38
  And obviously that's your latest.
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  Yeah. And that had some serious
• 2:42
  critique in it. And when I say critique, I mean
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  criticism. And I was there going, Oh yeah,
• 2:48
  tick, tick, tick. Oh my God, I love these guys
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  already. Their opinions much more and.
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  We we, we got a we got a lovely already like little community
• 2:58
  that love the podcast and they know who we are and, and what
• 3:02
  we're about. So we're, we're not, we're not
• 3:04
  afraid of getting quite spicy with our opinions and our takes
• 3:10
  about real life and politics and things.
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  You know, it's not a show where we shy away from things.
• 3:14
  And we kind of have an attitude of, you know, well, if you don't
• 3:17
  like it, you don't have to listen.
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  To it. Come on now, say it properly
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  because she said it in that episode.
• 3:22
  She said it very specifically. You.
• 3:24
  Don't. Know, but we don't like Steven
• 3:26
  Moffett. You can fuck off, all right?
• 3:27
  That's what she said. And I was like, yes, finally
• 3:30
  someone's talking my language. I think it's my biggest
• 3:33
  achievement really is that when we start, you know, Damler
• 3:35
  loves, she really likes the Matt Smith stuff.
• 3:38
  And I know she still does. But I think going from maybe
• 3:42
  being a bit diplomatic about it to turning down her into a sort
• 3:45
  of full on, she now hates alongside me with singing more
• 3:48
  fat content. So I've I've turned it to the
• 3:50
  dark. Saying earlier that you've made
• 3:51
  your friend hate Doctor Who. Well, of course, what?
• 3:55
  What are Doctor Who fans if they're angry all the time about
• 3:59
  about the show that they like? I was reading a book the other
• 4:02
  day right, which is a Doctor Who book called Bad Dogs of
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  Englishman. It had a literary critique in it
• 4:07
  called, of all things, my dislike.
• 4:10
  That was her name. And she has a line of, you know,
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  you're not, you can't be, you're not serious as a critic to her
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  fellow critics. You know, you don't truly
• 4:18
  dislike the things that you critique.
• 4:21
  You know, that's the only and Doctor Who fans live up to that
• 4:23
  that night and then some. It's the only, it's the only
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  show that I've ever watched where there are entire decades
• 4:32
  of it that I can just sort of essentially disregard in my
• 4:34
  mind. It's quite amazing, really.
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  And they'd still consider myself a fan of it.
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  It's brilliant. There's a huge swat.
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  I mean, I love all the talk too, but there's huge swathes of it
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  that aren't for me. And yet I'll still spend fucking
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  hours talking about it. I mean, it gets under your skin,
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  this thing, right? Well, yeah, I mean, I, you know,
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  I'll still, I'll still buy into it all.
• 4:54
  I don't ever make it a secret that I'm not a big fan of John
• 4:58
  Burkeley stuff. But I've still got the I've
• 5:00
  still got the Season 9 standard box set arriving today.
• 5:02
  Am I waiting on the Amazon man to drop that through me
• 5:04
  letterbox? Because they know this.
• 5:07
  This is why they keep re releasing everything because
• 5:08
  they know even people that hate this stuff are still going to
• 5:12
  buy it. People are the ones that love
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  it. The only, the only boycotting
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  I've done, and I mean you, you can cut the selfie ends up
• 5:20
  getting too, too, too, too controversial about.
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  Have you heard this podcast? Everything goes in.
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  Come on. But I start, I've started
• 5:27
  getting a bit bristly about the price points of character
• 5:29
  options stuff, personally. Oh, come on.
• 5:32
  If you want to have a run off you go.
• 5:33
  It's just just a lot of it like I have got, I've got the 15th
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  Doctor's solid screwdriver because I'm the only person in
• 5:39
  the world who liked the design and I've got the standard
• 5:42
  version. I got it for Christmas.
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  I didn't even have to buy it myself.
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  But when my mum was purchasing it for me for Christmas,
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  because, you know, I'm 27 years old, my mum still buys me Doctor
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  Who toys for Christmas. She, she asked me what I wanted
• 5:53
  and I refused. I refused to have the the shiny
• 5:57
  limited edition one because. It was how much is that?
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  It's like £40. You know, for a kids toy and
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  it's not even that much better. Same reason I've same reason
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  I've not got a like I'd love a I'd love a Doctor Ruby action
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  figure because I I enjoy their chemistry and I like the most
• 6:11
  characters. But same thing, I refused to pay
• 6:13
  £40 for them. And kids buying them is it.
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  No. With us, yeah. 45 year old geeks
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  sitting at home, you know, dusting their many, many Sonic
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  screwdrivers. And that is not a euphemism.
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  No, but that is what they know. They they know.
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  It's the same with the B&M sets. They're so again, obstensibly
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  they're active figures for children, but I mean what
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  children want what a first doctor and sensor rights like
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  double pack. We've got it.
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  I've Yeah, I I want it. Oh, wait, I'm 44.
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  Yeah, that's right. I'm the perfect age.
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  What? And also as well, like the, the
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  three books that came out for the 15th Doctor, Ruby Red and
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  all of that, that I covered on the book club.
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  I couldn't believe they were like £15 for a fucking book and
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  not a big book. You know, I was like, kids can't
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  afford this if these are for kids, which they clearly not.
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  I remember, think, you know, remember thinking for Christmas
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  if a kid wanted the again, at the time they hadn't released
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  the standard Sonic screwdriver. So they wanted the only Sonic
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  screwdriver you get from their Doctor and they wanted a 15 and
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  Ruby, which again, they'd only put up on their website and they
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  hadn't done the sort of more standard blister packed ones.
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  I was like, it's going to be £80 to buy both of them.
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  That's not. They don't know.
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  They Yeah. Do you know what what this has
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  to do with the gunfighters? I have no idea.
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  But somehow we've ended up here right now, to quote Kate Amara,
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  I got to say to you, you and me are going on a journey, a very
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  long journey. You've chosen 7 Doctor Who
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  stories for us to talk about, haven't you?
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  Yes, one from each doctor's When when we finished, when we
• 7:50
  finished doing strictly, we were having a bit of a chat with me
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  and I was like, we're doing some classic Doctor Who on Come along
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  pond. We talk about it when it's
• 7:59
  thematically relevant and eventually we want to talk about
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  all of it, but it's such a long time coming because we've got
• 8:05
  other stuff to talk about. I'm desperate to talk about you
• 8:07
  very graciously said. I can basically do whatever I
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  want. I've got carte blanche.
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  So we got to talk about one story from every era of classic
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  Doctor Who and essentially just use that as a springboard to
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  talk about the entire era. It's.
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  So you may think you're coming here today to hear us, you know,
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  whacked, lyrical about facts about the gunfires, facts.
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  You've listened to this podcast. You know, there's not many of
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  those here. What we're actually going to do
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  is sort of talk about the heart and the era as a whole, aren't
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  we? Yeah, and how bizarrely, I think
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  actually the Gunfighters encapsulates it really well.
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  Despite being, you know, the the infamous dog of the era for so
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  many years. What is wrong with people?
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  People just. I think there is a real tendency
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  to dislike fun. Why?
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  Like. Why?
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  You know, even when Doctor Who is doing comedy, sometimes I've
• 9:04
  got people, you know, like the myth makers, I think is very
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  funny. But people have this kind of,
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  it's missing and it has this mythological status and all the
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  stakes are high. And I think there's something
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  about the tackiness of the Wild West setting combined with the
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  comedy that people just think it.
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  It's basically discardable. You can bin it, but I think it's
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  brilliant. I think it's absolutely
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  brilliant. Do you know what though?
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  I think, I genuinely think if you look at Doctor Who as a
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  whole, it's the comedy and they're willing to sort of take
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  the piss out of itself that separates it from a lot of other
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  more earnest science fiction than Star Trek and Babylon 5 and
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  bullshit like that. OK, no, I like some of those
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  things, but you know what I mean?
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  Like the fact, the fact that it is cheap.
• 9:47
  Sometimes it will tell you it's quite cheap and it has funny
• 9:50
  characters in it and bizarre situations and embarrassing
• 9:54
  monsters and they just play it to the hill.
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  Yeah, it's, it's hard to take some sort of like, say, classic
• 10:01
  sci-fi seriously when it's taking itself so seriously all
• 10:03
  the time. But it looks to our modern eye a
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  bit crap and a bit a bit tacky. So yeah, having it being kind of
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  willingly fun and it's so clear, it's so just clearly made for,
• 10:14
  well, season 3, maybe less so, but it's so clearly made for
• 10:17
  really little children as well. But I'm quite forgiving of it
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  and I think the black and white hides a lot of it as well.
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  Definitely. Yeah, in a way that maybe sort
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  of classic Star Trek doesn't quite get away with do.
• 10:28
  You think there's an atmosphere, It's black and white Doctor Who
• 10:31
  that just isn't there at any other time.
• 10:34
  I think I think so because I I enjoy it, so again, I don't
• 10:39
  power to dry for future ones. I guess I'm a bit lukewarm on
• 10:42
  John Perky stuff and same with Tom Baker really, But I think
• 10:47
  it's because it's still cheap and the sets are quite cheap and
• 10:52
  there's nothing wrong with that. That's why I love Doctor Who.
• 10:54
  But having it in colour, everything tatty, but then the
• 11:04
  80s is just garish and and nightmarish in again, a way that
• 11:08
  I absolutely love. So there's, but there's,
• 11:10
  there's, there's something to be said for the black and white
• 11:12
  where I think even when it's probably really ropey and tatty
• 11:15
  looking, when it's in black and white, it just lends a beautiful
• 11:19
  atmosphere to everything. Well, you said something to me,
• 11:23
  which I think I've seen like quite a few times on Hamster
• 11:26
  about how they wouldn't let the fact that they're in the
• 11:30
  smallest studio in the world stop them from going all over
• 11:35
  the world. Like where they go Mexico, they
• 11:37
  go wherever the Crusades was of of in Palestine.
• 11:41
  Yeah, I mean even. Well, yeah, the fact.
• 11:43
  That. Their first proper, their first
• 11:45
  proper historical is is Marco Polo.
• 11:48
  It's travelling from the from the roof of the world.
• 11:51
  Yeah, across China. It's it's it's incredible.
• 11:54
  But same with this though. Like this is a comedy.
• 11:56
  It's a four part comedy that is not taken seriously.
• 12:00
  It doesn't have sort of much drama in it.
• 12:03
  And they build an entire Wild West town in this little studio.
• 12:07
  The madness of this right, because what is what you know, I
• 12:11
  on my sins. I did a media study course when
• 12:13
  I was younger and one of the genres we touched on was
• 12:15
  westerns. I, I was force fed like 10
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  westerns across a month. So I learned to hate the genre,
• 12:21
  but the one thing I really learned about it was, you know,
• 12:24
  visually it's the wide open spaces, right it's the vistas,
• 12:27
  it's the countryside and all of that.
• 12:29
  So the idea of pulling off a western in ABBC studio with no
• 12:34
  location work whatsoever, it's mad, isn't it?
• 12:38
  And yet they still, I think they do a bloody good job.
• 12:41
  I think they do. I'm not just sticking the boot
• 12:44
  in because of who it is, but I mean, it does a better job than
• 12:47
  A Town Called Mercy, I think. Well, I quite like that one, but
• 12:51
  that's that's a more typical Western visually, isn't it?
• 12:55
  Like it is, it is visually sumptuous.
• 12:58
  We got the money to travel somewhere, you know, Spain.
• 13:01
  Isn't it I? Think it is must be Spain.
• 13:03
  I think there was a lot of around that time, but yeah, we
• 13:06
  finally got the budget to film in Spain.
• 13:10
  But it kind of reminds me of how much I love Red Dwarf.
• 13:16
  There's that Season 6 episode of Red Dwarf, which are now they're
• 13:21
  going to forget it. I'm now going to forget his
• 13:22
  name, which is really embarrassing.
• 13:24
  The government of the Apocalypse.
• 13:25
  That's it there, I think, and that I just again, I adore that
• 13:30
  because it's tiny, tiny, pokey Wild West town.
• 13:32
  You can tell it's just a theme park, that they've gone to
• 13:35
  somewhere and it's cold, that it's muddy and.
• 13:37
  It's nothing like the Wild West, isn't it?
• 13:40
  It looks fucking miserable. That's down to it.
• 13:43
  Yeah, it I don't think in, in cowboy times, a real Old West
• 13:47
  town that people's breath often sort of left their mouths
• 13:49
  through the middle of the day where they were and they were
• 13:52
  having gunfights. Right.
• 13:53
  Yeah. Great story.
• 13:54
  You've got the cat going, you know the Riviera kid.
• 13:58
  Who cares? Yeah, it's a pretty yeah when
• 14:00
  you've got my, my yeah, my favorite joke and probably the
• 14:04
  whole of of Red Dwarf is everyone.
• 14:07
  Yeah, fuck it up there. Drink order and Rimmer
• 14:10
  postulating about how he knows how to speak cowboy.
• 14:12
  He asks for dry white wine. The Perrier.
• 14:16
  I love Red so much. This.
• 14:18
  This is A Next Generation episode of which is a western
• 14:23
  called A Fistful a Day is Right and they go out to a proper Wild
• 14:27
  West town. And they should, but it's a Star
• 14:29
  Trek episode, so it's so boring. It's got the jokes of Gum in the
• 14:34
  Apocalypse or The Gun Fighters. It's all being played for real.
• 14:37
  I don't know, it just sort of misses the point.
• 14:39
  I'd rather have less production value and more humour, frankly.
• 14:44
  Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there was just,
• 14:47
  there's just an innate charm, I think to Doctor Who and
• 14:50
  especially William Hartnell, Doctor Who, that can't be
• 14:53
  replicated elsewhere. Look, should we go into episode
• 14:57
  1 of The Gunfighters? Rather sublimely tiled.
• 15:01
  A holiday for the Doctor. Doctor Kong knew how to do a
• 15:06
  tile, right? Why don't you count us in?
• 15:09
  Give us 3 seconds. Let's go into Episode 1. 321.
• 15:15
  Off we go. Yeah.
• 15:18
  What do you think of these tiles?
• 15:20
  I, I just, they still, they, I still feel like, well, I mean, I
• 15:24
  wasn't a child in the 60s, but it makes me, it's probably the
• 15:28
  closest equivalents I can get. They still fill me with a sense
• 15:31
  of magic every time I actually sit down and watch an episode.
• 15:33
  I can't lie. Can you horrify me right now and
• 15:35
  tell me what you you were born in?
• 15:39
  I was born in the last the last echelons of 1997.
• 15:46
  It's a literally ATV movie. Came out before you were born.
• 15:49
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 15:50
  You terrify me, honestly. To be fair, though, you know,
• 15:54
  I'm not, you know, I try, I try not to think about it.
• 15:58
  And I'm not one of those people who's terrified about getting
• 16:01
  older. But I mean, the amount of the,
• 16:02
  the amount of people now who you know, 20 year olds were born in
• 16:07
  2005, You know, two 2005 is, is nostalgia for me.
• 16:11
  So I'm, I'm starting to feel it myself.
• 16:13
  So it's. Those people, and I know this is
• 16:15
  you, all right? It's those people that go, oh,
• 16:18
  could you remember when Doctor Who started with Christopher
• 16:21
  Eccleston and Billie Piper? And I'm like, what?
• 16:23
  What are you talking about? Is it the The funny thing?
• 16:27
  The funny thing for me is I actually, I mean, I've talked
• 16:30
  about it on Camel on Bond, but I actually, we had a, an assembly.
• 16:35
  I was in Junior School or, or whatever, you know, equivalent,
• 16:39
  but we had an assembly because we had a head teacher who was
• 16:41
  obsessed with Doctor Who. And she was so excited that was
• 16:43
  coming back that she made us kind of have a sort of pie
• 16:47
  Doctor Who history before the new one started.
• 16:48
  And that's the only reason I ever actually watched Doctor Who
• 16:50
  was because I was excited because she was excited.
• 16:54
  So I sort of, I only grew up watching the new stuff, but I
• 16:57
  was always consciously aware of you.
• 16:58
  I watched some old Tom Baker's and some William Hartnell's and
• 17:01
  she gave me a, a cardboard cut out of a, a sort of Dalek
• 17:05
  evasion, Earth Dalek thing. Because you do.
• 17:07
  I like Doctor Who, so it was always sort of there in the
• 17:10
  background, not quite as. The world needs more people in
• 17:14
  the education system like that. Yeah.
• 17:16
  All right. Do you know I watched the
• 17:17
  documentary? We was going to talk about the
• 17:19
  Arc, wasn't we? Originally, there was a
• 17:21
  documentary on the Arc about Riverside Studios, where this
• 17:25
  was all filmed. And Toby Haddock takes Peter
• 17:28
  Purvis to Riverside Studios and it's tiny, like they walk around
• 17:35
  the studio that they filmed in. And so that shot a second ago
• 17:39
  where you were on the Main Street with the Cowboys, and
• 17:41
  then the camera swings round to the TARDIS.
• 17:44
  It's astonishing that they get a sense of space at all in this
• 17:47
  thing. This it does genuinely actually
• 17:50
  feel really sket like a whole town sketched out.
• 17:53
  It's quite again, it's quite incredible.
• 17:56
  And I mean, I said to you before we were recording the without
• 18:00
  without irony. I generally prefer it to the
• 18:01
  film Tombstone. Explain yourself, Sir.
• 18:06
  Please come on. I just remember watching it and
• 18:08
  I again, I don't mind. I don't mind the Western.
• 18:10
  I find some of them can be a bit dry, but I just, I remember
• 18:13
  watching it and it's absolutely bored me to bored me to tears,
• 18:16
  although it's not the kind of Western that I enjoy.
• 18:18
  And so I must have. I've not seen Kevin Costner say
• 18:21
  Wyatt film, but that's because it's about four hours long and
• 18:24
  the reception seems to be, yeah, it's fine.
• 18:26
  And I've got better things to do in my life than watch a four
• 18:27
  hour OK movie. Wow, I mean, any film right
• 18:32
  that's even 3 hours long has to be so good.
• 18:36
  I watched The Revenant recently and Oh my God, I felt as if I
• 18:39
  spent half my life watching that movie.
• 18:42
  So tedious. Now you say you like a western.
• 18:45
  Yeah. I do genuinely like westerns.
• 18:48
  What is it about Western you like then?
• 18:49
  Is it the, you know, sort of the the girls in their silk hose?
• 18:52
  The Cowboys? Tell me.
• 18:55
  I just, I've always found, I don't know, I've always found it
• 18:58
  really interesting. I I think even though I'm, I'm
• 19:03
  now cool and, you know, I'm very cool, super, super, you know,
• 19:07
  left wing and I'm really like, yeah, you know, like truth to
• 19:10
  power, man. I grew up with all of the
• 19:12
  cliche, you know, boy, you know, it was Cowboys, it was Indiana
• 19:16
  Jones, Zorro. I love swashbuckling and, and,
• 19:20
  and swords and guns. And I think that stuff is still
• 19:23
  just stuck in my head. But even though a lot of stuff
• 19:25
  that's made about Cowboys is entirely problematic, it could
• 19:30
  quite gross. I'm still a sucker for a western
• 19:32
  Vista and a good bit of swelling music.
• 19:34
  I mean, I saw Kevin Costner's Horizon in the cinema recently
• 19:38
  and that is about 3 hours long and I loved every second of it
• 19:41
  because I'm a I'm a sucker for nice music and a good landscape
• 19:45
  so. That's the butchest thing anyone
• 19:48
  has ever said on this podcast. I like swords and gums.
• 19:52
  Yeah, Well, you won't be disappointed in this then,
• 19:54
  aren't I? That's funny.
• 19:55
  Yeah. Guns on display.
• 19:58
  It just goes head. It goes head in head or
• 19:59
  everything else I'm capable of, I'm capable of loving.
• 20:02
  That's maybe. I like the story.
• 20:03
  It's got guns in it, but also it's got camp, you know, It's
• 20:06
  everything it's got. Camp up, Stephen Regret.
• 20:11
  There's just Gunslinger in the West.
• 20:13
  The whole the fact the whole story is set off by the doctor
• 20:16
  of eating a boiled sweet too. It's just.
• 20:20
  That's do you remember that scene at the end of the
• 20:22
  celestial toy back? He's like, oh, what the Hell's
• 20:25
  going? I thought it got poisoned.
• 20:29
  I would have, I think, I do think it's quite a good, quite a
• 20:32
  good Cliff actor because I I still watch it down even though
• 20:35
  I know what's happening. It still comes as a surprise.
• 20:37
  I'm like what is happening? The best, I mean one of the best
• 20:41
  jokes in this I love is where he goes out onto the street and
• 20:45
  sees that enormous fucking tooth hanging outside.
• 20:48
  I don't think that's the very subtle form of advertising,
• 20:51
  actually. You know what?
• 20:52
  I think I'm feeling better. Can we talk about the governor,
• 20:55
  please? William Hartnell.
• 20:56
  Yeah, I so William Hartnall for me is the doctor that I have to
• 21:05
  not tell people is my favorite when people ask me because
• 21:07
  people just look at you. Who?
• 21:09
  Yeah. And people do ask because they
• 21:12
  know about, they know about the podcast, everything.
• 21:14
  And it's really nice that people care.
• 21:15
  But I mean, I have to lie because you just sound.
• 21:19
  I mean, we went on a we were on, we were on BBC Radio Oxford
• 21:25
  earlier in the year or earlier last year.
• 21:28
  Yeah, I know we had. We had to love the researcher
• 21:30
  from their approaches. They do a podcast spotlight one
• 21:34
  of the hosts and they wanted us to plug our podcast, but same
• 21:37
  thing. She asked me and down who our
• 21:38
  favorite doctors were. And just in my head, I was like,
• 21:41
  oh, I can't, I can't go too deep.
• 21:42
  Cut. Come on now, Elliot, be honest
• 21:45
  to yourself. I don't want to go too deep cut
• 21:48
  for Radio Oxford. It's just way, it's just way too
• 21:51
  inappropriate so. There'd be a lot of oldies
• 21:54
  listening to that, you know? I'd to I'd to portray, I mean, I
• 21:58
  my stock answer is always 9. I would say 9.
• 22:01
  Who's my first doctor? And then people don't ask
• 22:03
  questions. And I do love I love crystal.
• 22:05
  But anyway, that's that's. You're saying Hartnell is your
• 22:09
  secret love? Hartnell is my is genuinely my
• 22:11
  favorite doctor, but you won't hear it from me many times out
• 22:14
  of shame. But he is my he's my favorite
• 22:16
  doctor. Well, I'm pleased we found an
• 22:18
  arena where you can finally confess your sins.
• 22:21
  I just don't think that there's any.
• 22:24
  I think first of all, it's hard to beat the original
• 22:27
  interpretation. And I mean, everyone bases all
• 22:29
  their points is all Patrick Tran out?
• 22:31
  And so I feel like a lot of his interpretation gets lost, which
• 22:35
  I have problems with, but it's fine.
• 22:37
  I. Think Capaldi Maya based is on
• 22:39
  Hartnell. You know the Hartnell of the
• 22:41
  first few stories? Yeah.
• 22:43
  I love, I'd love. I just, I think he's the, he's
• 22:46
  the only real Doctor Who goes on, especially in the class
• 22:49
  series, who goes on a proper, definable character arc.
• 22:53
  And I don't know, there's something, I think there's a
• 22:56
  sense of magic that you only get with the combination of both
• 22:59
  being the most like odious prick imaginable, whilst also being so
• 23:07
  sweet and and grandfatherly. I it's just a, it's just a
• 23:10
  combination that you don't get. I actually think in the the when
• 23:13
  they did those little trailers for the box sets, they did the
• 23:15
  one for Season 2. And Vicki's talking about, you
• 23:18
  know, the the smile, the smile of his being magical, but also
• 23:22
  the fury of, you know, like 1000 anchors in his eyes or whatever
• 23:26
  it is. She says this is the most
• 23:27
  perfect encapsulation of his doctor.
• 23:30
  When he comes up to you and he schmoozes and he's sweet it, it
• 23:33
  melts your heart. When he bares his teeth and his
• 23:36
  eyes are blazing. I mean, I wouldn't want to face
• 23:38
  it. Yeah, and I love the play.
• 23:40
  I love even just the playful negative.
• 23:42
  I mean so when we're going to do the ark I I I paraphrase to you,
• 23:47
  then I that he he says to Dodo. Yeah, Dodo by job.
• 23:51
  What the fuck? What the fuck are you wearing?
• 23:53
  And he does the same with. This story exact line you.
• 23:54
  Know I think it is yeah. And he does the same with this
• 23:57
  story when they come out in their their Wild West duds.
• 24:00
  But I just, I don't know it's it's lovely.
• 24:03
  He's not afraid of of ribbing people, but you know he he gets
• 24:06
  as good as he's given. He he's clearly an actor that's
• 24:09
  treaded the board's right. His comic timing is superb.
• 24:13
  When she comes out and says, how do I look?
• 24:15
  He gives her one look and goes, oh, good grief, absolutely
• 24:18
  absurd, you know, and it but he he nails it.
• 24:22
  He nails the jokes. I think he's at his most
• 24:24
  comfortable when he's doing comedy.
• 24:26
  Hartnell. Yeah.
• 24:27
  Oh, absolutely. I think again, why this is
• 24:29
  really successful is well, I, I, I said to you again before that
• 24:36
  Tim from the missing episodes podcast always says that, you
• 24:39
  know, Hartnell's always most at home doing historical stories
• 24:42
  and not the sci-fi stuff. It's where he flubs his lines
• 24:44
  the least and where he seems most at ease as an actor.
• 24:48
  And I, but I also agree that I think he's also most at home
• 24:50
  when he's doing comedy. I put the two together.
• 24:54
  I think it's why he's most why he's quite magical in the
• 24:56
  Aztecs, because his whole subplot is just a romantic
• 24:59
  comedy. You know, like he all the all
• 25:01
  the Romans. He's it's where he's having the
• 25:04
  most fun. I I drank some cocoa and got
• 25:06
  engaged. You what?
• 25:10
  Oh, no, No. Do you know what the funniest
• 25:12
  bit is? Is in the the Romans where he
• 25:15
  goes, you know? When are you going to kill
• 25:18
  season Nero? He goes.
• 25:20
  I beg your pardon? Kill season Nero.
• 25:22
  What are you talking of? He's just on it.
• 25:24
  Yeah. But yeah, the the the myth
• 25:27
  makers, he gets bought halfway through and decides to not
• 25:29
  telling him how to build the treasured horse.
• 25:31
  He just gets he sort of gets bored of his own being in his
• 25:34
  own adventure. Don't you love the bit?
• 25:36
  Well, there's something about the projecting people over the
• 25:40
  wall on, on catapults. They go, well, you can go first
• 25:44
  because oh God, oh, I think I've got the calculations wrong.
• 25:47
  Let's try something else. It's just right.
• 25:50
  I think it took them a while, didn't it?
• 25:51
  Because you go and watch Season 1, there isn't a lot of comedy
• 25:56
  in season 1. A lot of it is quite serious.
• 25:58
  Because I think they're they're trying to present the show as as
• 26:02
  something serious for you to watch.
• 26:04
  Yeah, I think there's a there's a couple of moments in in series
• 26:07
  1 where I think you get you get a lot out of it.
• 26:10
  If you'd like Hartnell's Doctor and and him as an actor, like I
• 26:13
  think his his interactions in the the palace at the end of
• 26:20
  Marco Polo. Yeah, him and the emperor
• 26:24
  essentially just the same old man.
• 26:25
  He's very sweet. But that's that's after six
• 26:28
  episodes of just quite hardcore travel log stuff does.
• 26:33
  He win again of the entire wealth of Burma, I believe I.
• 26:37
  Think he'd take it as well. We fired out earlier that
• 26:41
  Stevens Stevens revolver that he fumbles out of his holster that
• 26:45
  he's trying to hold is from the Doctors like collection of
• 26:48
  firearms that he's got statutory with the TARDIS.
• 26:51
  You know what's a joy in this story, though, right, Is, I
• 26:53
  mean, what I love how relaxed his first episode is.
• 26:56
  Yeah, there's, there's. He doesn't even know he's in any
• 26:59
  peril right up until the end of Episode 1, despite the fact that
• 27:02
  he's being set up as Doc Holiday.
• 27:06
  He just sort of bumbles his way through, doesn't he?
• 27:08
  In a very innocent sort of a way.
• 27:11
  I really like, I really like the hat that Dodo gives him though.
• 27:15
  It actually suits the and it's one of those, it's one of the
• 27:17
  only stories where his clothing actually matches the that kind
• 27:19
  of Edwardian outfit. It does not look out of place.
• 27:23
  He looks more traditional cowboy than actually what Stevens
• 27:25
  wearing. But the hat really lends
• 27:28
  something to it. I recently read the book of this
• 27:31
  right for the book club and it's all told from Doc Holiday's
• 27:36
  point of view the book. So he's on the omnipresent
• 27:39
  eraser at the end of his life. He literally dies at the end of
• 27:42
  the book once he's finished telling the story and it does
• 27:46
  present the western town in a far less family friendly.
• 27:50
  There's, there's a lot, I mean, the people's brains are
• 27:53
  exploding when they get shot. There's a whore house on the on
• 27:57
  the Main Street called Margo Lightly's where the doctor sort
• 28:00
  of stumbles in at one point in, in episode 1 and all of that.
• 28:04
  But I think they take the Western as far as they can in
• 28:08
  this. I mean, yeah, this is my
• 28:12
  apologies again if I'm if I'm parenting, I guess not real
• 28:16
  information, but I sort of remember reading that.
• 28:19
  It's weird, don't worry. The first time the sort of
• 28:23
  British TV had attempted at doing anything set in the Wild
• 28:26
  West. So yeah, I think for a first go,
• 28:29
  for a first go round and set and set within the limits of Doctor
• 28:32
  Who, it's not just a Wild West drama, it's it's Doctor Who.
• 28:35
  I think it's really successful. I mean, look, there's not many
• 28:37
  Doctor Who stories, you know, look what's going on now.
• 28:39
  He walks in the door. They're about to have it off in
• 28:41
  the next room. Doc Holiday and Katie Brown.
• 28:46
  This looks absolutely appalled. Forgive me Sarah, I should have
• 28:50
  knocked. I slap him.
• 28:55
  I think, I mean it comes up, it comes up soon.
• 28:59
  So I apologise. I'm kind of jump in the jump in
• 29:02
  the gut a little bit. But I think he all of Hartnell's
• 29:06
  line deliveries are really good in this.
• 29:07
  But I think that sometimes it's hard to.
• 29:11
  It's easy to overlook how good a physical actor he is and his
• 29:15
  face that he pulls when he gets his tooth ripped out.
• 29:19
  The camera goes right down his throat.
• 29:22
  It's it's indescribable how good that that look of just pain and
• 29:28
  terror on his face is. Yeah, it's why, you know, with
• 29:32
  the animations that have come out and the Telus hat
• 29:35
  reconstructions, I think you, you know, God bless them for
• 29:38
  doing it. I'm so pleased we get to
• 29:39
  actually see those pictures moving.
• 29:42
  But you miss so much of the performance, don't you?
• 29:45
  Yeah, absolutely. Especially, I think especially
• 29:48
  from Hartnell, because I think there's some stuff, there's some
• 29:53
  stuff that's missing that would maybe just make people actually
• 30:00
  watch his stuff and engage with it rather than just discounting
• 30:04
  him as being the boring one. I can't take my eyes.
• 30:07
  I find him when he's on the screen.
• 30:08
  He always draws my eye because he's always doing something.
• 30:10
  I mean, look at him. Here he goes.
• 30:12
  I can give you a swig of this whiskey.
• 30:14
  Is that Let's say he goes. Good grief, how unprofessional.
• 30:17
  Bless it all, He's a poor here we go.
• 30:21
  Oh dear, A massive pair of fucking pliers going down his
• 30:26
  gulp. But that's that's The thing is
• 30:29
  what I get. I love the it's why I don't like
• 30:33
  it with the show thinks about itself too much because they've
• 30:36
  landed here. I know that they never know
• 30:38
  where they're going to land because the TARDIS is on the
• 30:40
  Fritz, but they've landed in a Wild West town and I understand
• 30:44
  Stephen Dodo. They want to go have fun.
• 30:46
  But surely I'd just, I'd part with a toothache or I'd go
• 30:50
  because he should. You'd think, you know, a Time
• 30:55
  Lord, this, this barely centuries old.
• 30:57
  You'd be like, oh, I don't want to pair appliers around.
• 31:00
  Abby just ripped out. No, again, no anesthetic.
• 31:03
  He doesn't have any anesthetic. You can only have a it makes a
• 31:06
  joke out of it. He goes, he goes, Doctor, surely
• 31:08
  you've got something in the TARDIS that will help you
• 31:10
  extract the tooth. He goes, my boy, he goes, I've
• 31:12
  got machines that can reset bones and all this.
• 31:15
  And he names all this amazing equipment.
• 31:17
  And then the gag is but for some reason I forgot to pack any
• 31:20
  aspirin, which is a Gray line. But yes, but so it's why I don't
• 31:25
  like thinking about it too much because it's just, it's a device
• 31:28
  to get us into a, a really, really silly story.
• 31:31
  But yeah, I'll see. Logically, they could just go
• 31:33
  and they could land somewhere else.
• 31:35
  You know, you just keep going until you get somewhere that has
• 31:37
  advanced dentistry. Dodo was so happy to be here, he
• 31:40
  couldn't possibly. But it's much more fun to have
• 31:43
  to have them just go and lock off at an adventure.
• 31:45
  You know, you mentioned a cat, a town called Mercy, right?
• 31:48
  And and you mentioned how knowing and meta the show can
• 31:52
  be. I hate the star of that where he
• 31:55
  walks up to the Wild West town and he goes and he starts naming
• 31:58
  all the conventions. He goes, oh, did someone take a
• 32:00
  peek at my shopping list or something like that?
• 32:02
  And it's just so on the nose. It's so a scriptwriter letting
• 32:06
  you know exactly what you're in for.
• 32:08
  Whereas at the start of this, you just have Dodo go, we're in
• 32:11
  the Wild West. Yeah.
• 32:13
  You know. I think, and I've said to you,
• 32:15
  I've said to you just about, I guess culture at the moment in
• 32:20
  general, but I think it's something that maybe personifies
• 32:23
  why I don't engage with that ear of the show.
• 32:24
  Someone is I hate, I hate cynicism.
• 32:27
  Like, you know, I hate the idea of going, oh, well, we're going
• 32:29
  to do a Western, but we have to be a bit apologetic about it
• 32:32
  because they're kind of crap and they're a bit rubbish.
• 32:33
  So we've got to let the audience know that, don't worry, we know,
• 32:36
  we know Westerns are rubbish and we're going to tell you we're
• 32:39
  much smarter than it. But I'd rather just a sincere
• 32:44
  tale in a Western town. Like, again, it's why I like
• 32:46
  this. It is why I like especially
• 32:49
  mostly First Doctor stuff. It is as sincere as you can get.
• 32:53
  They are going for it and they're taking big swings.
• 32:55
  And even when they miss, it is endearing and fascinating and
• 32:59
  and more interesting to watch, I think.
• 33:02
  I think, I think Donald Cotton is a sophisticated enough writer
• 33:08
  that the comic misunderstandings and all that that he puts into
• 33:11
  here, it does actually fight your conventional Western.
• 33:15
  It gives you a western. It gives you all the tropes, a
• 33:17
  saloon bar, the gunfire, Johnny Ringo, all that stuff, but all,
• 33:23
  all of this sort of farcical stuff coming in and out of
• 33:26
  bloody doors, mistaken identity and all of that.
• 33:29
  Yeah, this could be on the stage right as a.
• 33:32
  Company and it's doing it without having to have a yeah,
• 33:36
  have a character be snarky about it or be smart about it.
• 33:39
  It's just happening. And yeah, no, I, I, I think it
• 33:44
  is much more, much more successful for that.
• 33:47
  Although, I mean, I've got a whole range of questions I want
• 33:50
  to ask you about this, but what do you think of the accents?
• 33:54
  For me, it entirely, it entirely adds to it and I just, I don't
• 34:00
  understand, again, this is probably, I'm going to be really
• 34:04
  horrible about, I'm sure lots of people, people are probably
• 34:07
  listening. I don't mean it in that way, but
• 34:08
  I don't understand how you could love Doctor Who and love the
• 34:13
  cheap effects of the cheap sets and everything, but be annoyed
• 34:17
  at people not quite being able to do convincing American
• 34:19
  accents. For me, it just adds to the adds
• 34:21
  to the charm hearing they're kind of clipped, actual actual
• 34:26
  kind of very nice English accents kind of shift through.
• 34:29
  And I think it works. And I mean, obviously it it it
• 34:33
  accidentally kind of, I don't know, it kind of it creates
• 34:38
  almost it's own plot point in itself because Stephen and Dodo
• 34:42
  are affecting American accents and they're not very good at it.
• 34:45
  And I feel like the traditional thing to do now would be to have
• 34:48
  them doing bad American accents and be everyone be suspicious of
• 34:51
  them because they're not, but everyone just want to face value
• 34:54
  takes it that Stephen Dodo are American.
• 34:55
  There's no real questions about actually, you know, where
• 34:58
  they're from. And also.
• 35:00
  Everyone else saying that's a meta joke.
• 35:02
  Their accents are so bad everyone thinks, well they sound
• 35:05
  just like us. They've sort of accidentally,
• 35:07
  yeah, accidentally created this massive, like, meta joke,
• 35:10
  whereas Stephenodono just sound like everyone else is doing bit
• 35:12
  parts of this story. It's quite amazing.
• 35:15
  And actually, do you know what right he is talking to you out
• 35:18
  there, OK, And he is insulting all of you.
• 35:19
  I think you should all take a good long bloody look at
• 35:21
  yourselves, all right? If you can't get past the
• 35:23
  accent, it's it's like you weirdos that pick out kill the
• 35:27
  moon and the science in that, yes, Jason Thompson, I'm talking
• 35:30
  to you. And yet you can accept a time
• 35:32
  travelling, you know, machine that goes around.
• 35:35
  It's bigger on the inside than the out.
• 35:37
  Take a good look at yourselves. I think that I do wonder if they
• 35:42
  ever floated, sorry again, just Ed Hartnell giving that gun and
• 35:45
  he's just waving it around to everybody and he's not even
• 35:48
  noticing that people have that. She's pushing it out of the way.
• 35:51
  She threw the hat on him. They're just pruning him up.
• 35:53
  He has no idea, does he? It's funny.
• 35:58
  But yeah, I wonder if it rehearsal or if anything, if
• 36:00
  they'd ever tried to float the idea with Hartnell of him also
• 36:02
  trying to affect an accent. I hope so.
• 36:07
  I mean, I feel like he would have just refused.
• 36:09
  He really what he wanted to do the Western, didn't he?
• 36:12
  Of all genres, this was the one he really wanted to do.
• 36:15
  Yeah, wasn't it to sort of keep him sweet like a little bit?
• 36:19
  Yeah, which is really nice. I mean, even OK, this this is
• 36:24
  going to sound crazy. Some from someone brought up on
• 36:27
  the new series, which has, you know, a degree of visual
• 36:32
  splendor about it. But you've got A2 tier set here,
• 36:35
  right? Which was quite rare.
• 36:37
  And they were shooting from above down just to give that
• 36:40
  massive sense of space in the saloon bar.
• 36:42
  This is the 60s with those fucking cameras that were like
• 36:45
  Daleks that were impossible to move around.
• 36:48
  I think the efforts they go to to to give this a sense of space
• 36:52
  is pretty good. I'm Yeah, I'm not less impressed
• 36:56
  with any kind of nice looking camera stuff in modern Doctor
• 37:01
  Who, not because it doesn't look nice, but because like you said,
• 37:04
  it's much, it's just much easy to do.
• 37:06
  Like I never get excited about. Yeah, shots that look nice but
• 37:11
  have very clearly been done in computers and things like that.
• 37:13
  Because the same kind of thing, I think.
• 37:15
  Well, yeah, but it's not. There was no technical skill on
• 37:17
  display here. And again, not to say that the
• 37:19
  modern camera operators and the cinematographers on the show
• 37:21
  aren't skilled. They obviously are.
• 37:24
  But yeah, it just it makes me less impressed or like you're
• 37:28
  not dealing with, yeah, a cramp studio and place a cameras that
• 37:31
  are the size of about two men trying to manoeuvre around.
• 37:34
  The old thing about the new series now is we're in a
• 37:37
  position where Doctor Who always has good production values.
• 37:40
  So the thing that really determines whether it's good or
• 37:44
  bad is the writing. Whereas I think back then the
• 37:46
  writing was always pretty strong and usually what determine
• 37:49
  whether it was a good or bad, but ATV was the production
• 37:52
  value. We've sort of completely
• 37:53
  reversed now. Yeah, I struggled to think of,
• 37:57
  Yeah, I started to think of a lot of, especially in the early
• 37:59
  days, sort of stories that have wonky, wonky scripts.
• 38:02
  I think the only time the writing ever suffers is if
• 38:04
  they're made to go on for just too long.
• 38:08
  Can you think of another Doctor Who's story where the
• 38:11
  cliffhanger is the companions being held at gunpoint, forced
• 38:15
  to sing a dreadful song, which of course as we out this
• 38:18
  episode, you and I are going to give a rendition whilst Dodo's
• 38:22
  on the piano and the Doctors walking unwittingly into danger.
• 38:26
  I think I do love though that and again, I I think I missed it
• 38:30
  yesterday. I was like genuinely like I am,
• 38:32
  I'm it's always one of those things where I'm pretending to
• 38:34
  enjoy this. I was genuinely laughing out
• 38:35
  loud at it to myself. That shot of Steve when he
• 38:39
  finishes that first verse and he looks who's right and he sees
• 38:41
  the gunpoint into his face and he just jolts his head back into
• 38:44
  place to look at the lyrics. He's it's very, very, very
• 38:47
  simplistic physical comedy, but it's very funny.
• 38:50
  And Peter Purves acts that bit incredibly.
• 38:52
  And I love it. Yeah, and then and then even the
• 38:56
  fact that the next episode, you know, comes up next episode,
• 38:58
  don't shoot the pianist while they're all held at gunpoint.
• 39:00
  I think is is also a joke itself.
• 39:04
  That's brilliant. It's almost a shame, you know,
• 39:06
  because obviously we, I mean, we'll get there in Episode 2
• 39:09
  because I love all that stuff in the bar where the Doctor's got
• 39:11
  them all held up with his pistol.
• 39:14
  But by the end of Episode 2, we're in sort of genuine
• 39:16
  jeopardy, aren't we? Stevens being dragged off to be
• 39:19
  burned or hung or I can't remember what fate is going
• 39:22
  through. But, you know, I mean like the
• 39:23
  stories sort of becoming more serious as it goes along.
• 39:27
  Yeah, I remember sort of accidentally, yeah, finding
• 39:31
  myself sort of spacing out to reply to a text and then looking
• 39:34
  back at the next season, Stevens staying next to a noose.
• 39:40
  That is, isn't that not season 3 in a nutshell though?
• 39:43
  Yeah, In The Myth Makers, you get free episodes of of comedy,
• 39:47
  hijinks and then all of a sudden a massacre.
• 39:51
  Well, will you do me a favour please?
• 39:54
  Yeah, you please pull up the lyrics of The Ballad of the Last
• 39:57
  Chance Saloon on your phone. You promised me a rendition of
• 40:01
  this, and I think the end of Episode 1 where it's being sung
• 40:05
  is is the most appropriate time. See if we can.
• 40:11
  The lyrics must be here somewhere, right?
• 40:12
  I think there's just so there's so there's so much of it.
• 40:17
  I know the 1st, I know the first verse that Stephen sings off the
• 40:21
  top of my head. Oh, here we go.
• 40:23
  Yes, There's a wiki page just for it.
• 40:25
  Wow. OK, let's do.
• 40:28
  OK, let's do the first two bits. Yeah, I mean, you count us in.
• 40:34
  Let's go for it. Let's just do it.
• 40:36
  Is it the? Fill up your glasses to the
• 40:39
  Second Last Chance Saloon. I'll tell you what we'll do a
• 40:42
  We'll do one part per episode. Yeah, we'll just go the whole
• 40:47
  way through the song. OK, me, Me, me.
• 40:50
  Me. Me.
• 40:50
  Me. OK, You ready straight 211.
• 40:55
  So fill up your glasses and join in the sun.
• 41:03
  The laws. Right behind you and.
• 41:08
  Why you've got slow? You're going slower.
• 41:14
  I want to do the to do the rag timey piano.
• 41:18
  It's because I'm trying to. I was trying to keep in time
• 41:20
  with you, but I think there's the you got the audio delay
• 41:23
  carry across the which probably makes it sound like we're going
• 41:26
  about 10 miles an hour. How many versions of it could
• 41:29
  you do? Like could you do an opera
• 41:30
  version? Sophie, love your blossoms.
• 41:34
  Actually, because in the when they're playing it is like the
• 41:36
  Overture, it's very slow. Isn't it's like Sophia pure
• 41:39
  glass. But then you've got Stephen does
• 41:40
  it very easy. He's very yeah, yes, he's kind
• 41:43
  of quick. Isn't it a bit you know?
• 41:45
  We're wasted, You and me. We are wasted.
• 41:48
  Yeah. Are you ready for an X Factor
• 41:50
  audition? Always.
• 41:52
  We we came out and sung that Jesus Christ, they, they put us
• 41:58
  through on novelty value alone, wouldn't they?
• 42:00
  Added gun to the head for effect.
• 42:03
  They might shoot us both.