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SMNTY Classics: The Life of Lynn Conway · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: when never told you a prediction, I heard you, And
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: today we are bringing back an episode we did Bridget,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: which we always love bringing back. Sometimes it's tricky because
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: she always does such timely stuff, but it's always still
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: relevant in a way that is both upsetting and sometimes like,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: oh we still need to be talking about this. But
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: as we're moving into Pride months, I thought we would
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: bring back this one about Lynn Conway and all of
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the contributions that lin Kwanway had to the tech to
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: the tech environment that almost got erased. So yeah, please enjoy. Hey,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stefan Never
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today we are thrilled
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: to once again be joined by the fabulous Bridget Todd
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: coworker and friend. Yes, first recording session of the new year.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Oh that's right, happy, first recording of twenty twenty two.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: Yes, how how is your your weirdo? Christmas? How is
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: your new year? Bridget?
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: Weirdo? Christmas? Was super fun? Thank you for asking.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: It involved all the staples I hoped it had drunkenness,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: crazy outfits, Yes, fire pits, dancing, but then sadly, right
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: after that, I got COVID. Oh Dan, I know, I
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: am recovering from COVID, which it was not how I
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: plan to spend the latter part of the holiday. So
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: my New Year's was just really spent sweating and moaning,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: not for any kind of fun.
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: Reason, because I was in discomfort.
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: That turns so quickly, Wow, well, I'm glad you're okay.
• 2:17
  Speaker 6: How are you feeling today?
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: Much better?
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, I unfortunately I got COVID before I was
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: able to be boosted.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: And so if.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Anyone is listening and they are like, I'll take in
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: their sweet time to get their booster shot, don't do that.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: My partner also got COVID, and he is he was
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: boosted and recovered so much quicker than me.
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: So I'm feeling a lot better, but.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: It really does linger, like don't let anybody tell you
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: that omicron is like, oh, it's very mild, Like that
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: might mean you don't need to go to the hospital,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: but it definitely like lingers and you feel like garbage
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: for quite.
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: A while, right, I mean, that's the report I've been hearing,
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: is like everybody's saying it was a mild case, but
• 2:54
  Speaker 5: that doesn't necessarily mean you're not affected or asymptomatic. Literally,
• 2:58
  Speaker 5: you're just not at the hospital and you may have
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: the one hundred and four fever all the problems, and
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: it may last longer than the flu. But yeah, it
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: sounds like being boosted is the way to go.
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: So sorry, Bridget, Yeah, it's okay.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I mean it could have been a lot worse, and
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to be on the men. But yeah, it
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: was a good excuse to stay in bed and watch
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: a binge watch shows.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: So I was talk you about that nice.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's funny because Samantha and I it was
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: like right before almicron, like we you know, heard about it,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: but it was before everyone was like, oh my god,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: it's everywhere. We went to the movies and we saw
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: The Matrix and Spider Man.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: We did Double Feature.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: And I after that the news came out everyone had amochron,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: and I was convinced I had it, even though I
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: had no proof, like there was no symptoms or anything.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: But I essentially stayed in on New Year's as if
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: I have COVID, I'm not going anywhere.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna see anybody. And it was actually very lovely.
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: It was nice, right, I mean to the point that
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: I think for introverts like myself is now just like okay,
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: well I might have COVID, so I can't I can't
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: go so sorry, I.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Might have it.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know, such a good, ready made excuse, like
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: I might have COVID.
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: I'm worried about COVID. Thinking about COVID, like it's.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Such a good excuse to not have to do things
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: you don't really want to do.
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm like, this is how I live in my
• 4:26
  Speaker 5: comfy forever. I keep mentioning comfies and I know they
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: are not a sponsor. They need to be a sponsor
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: at this point because I'm always cold, and I'm looking
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: at you, Bridget, because you're actually in sleeveless and I'm like,
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: oh my god, and it's sunny where you're sitting as
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: where we are in the darkness and depths of despair, apparently.
• 4:44
  Speaker 6: In my comfy.
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: But I'm like, wow, this is a drastic difference between
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: us and you.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: So I am like the other side of the coin,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: which is that I live in an old apartment and
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: we have old school like radiator heat that we're not
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: really able to control right, uncomfortably warm in the window
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: open even though there is snow on the ground.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is very, very different.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: We got like a hint of snow in Atlanta and.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Cranking up my radiator.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: I also have a radiator that I it's tricky to control,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: but I think I got it figured out. You open
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: the one in the bathroom halfway and you're gonna be fined.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: Everybody who has radiator heet like you have.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: You have like a weird mechanism of like you gotta
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: do this, gotta do that, a window like it's it's
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: a delicate art.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: When I first moved in here, I was like, I
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: asked my landlord what is that?
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: And he looked at me. He said, it's a radiator.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: You're gonna have to figure that out. Like oh okay,
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: oh yes, well okay.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Now that we've checked in Bridget, I am so excited
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: with the topic you bought today because I didn't know
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: this story and it's an amazing story. So can you
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: tell us what we're going to be talking about today?
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: Yes, I'm so excited.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: You know one of my favorite things in the world
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: that's really talking about overlooked figures in history. The history
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: of technology and the Internet, of which there are many,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: and I feel like they can really tell us a
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: lot about how our identities often determined who gets remembered
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: and who gets overlooked, even when someone is responsible for
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: pretty much changing the world, like the person that we're
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: going to be discussing today, Lynn Conway. Linn Conway is
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: an amazing historical figure. She's still alive, but she essentially
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: changed the world. She is the reason why we have
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: things like personal computers, smartphones, tablets, iPads, all of that,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: and yet her story almost went overlooked because of transphobia.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And it is quite the story and quite
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: the journey and still still alive today, So that's awesome.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Still making changes also awesome. But can we get into
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: some of the early history here?
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: Yes, so, Linn.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: She was born in nineteen thirty eight and was assigned
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: mail at birth, but from an early age she knew
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: there was more to her story as it pertained to
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: her gender. Her mom was studying anthropology at Columbia, and
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: she would flip through her mom's school textbooks sort of
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: looking for any kind of answers or perspectives that spoke
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: to how she knew she was feeling. And there's a
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: really lovely profile of Lynn Conway in Michigan Engineering News,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: so definitely check that out. But in that profile, she says,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: it seemed like people in other cultures had found different
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: ways to.
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: Deal with what I knew I was feeling. But then
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: that became scrambled.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: But the thought that what I was feeling was that
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: I was gay, but no one ever talked about these things.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: When Conway was fourteen, she read a news story about
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: the former Army private Christine Jorgensen, who was the first
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: person in the United States to publicly announce a gender transition,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: and that really changed everything for Lynn Conway.
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: She said, from reading that story, she knew what she.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Needed to do, Like she realized, like, I am going
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: through the same thing, and this is what I want
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: to do, And it really set her out on this
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: journey to discover her identity.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 8:02
  Speaker 5: Wow, I really couldn't imagine in that day and time
• 8:07
  Speaker 5: being in that place like its difficult as it is
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: today in twenty twenty two.
• 8:13
  Speaker 6: Oh my god, I just said, the year.
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: Twenty twenty two of being a part of the queer
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: community in general, even no matter what I just you know,
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: not to put too much of my personal life out there.
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: I just had a big discussion with my parents about
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: acceptance of the queer community point blank, not not anything
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: outside of not me coming out, just what it was.
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: And it was a little bit combative from my parents,
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: that just them trying to accept the queer community in
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: general and talking about what that is in relation to
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: their conservative ideas. So I can't imagine if those are
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: the hard conversations we're having today, I can't imagine what
• 8:48
  Speaker 5: it would have been like back then. So what was
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: her coming of age story like or what was it
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: that we need to know about because I can't again,
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: like my heart just like it is pounding the idea
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: of what she went through.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's that's such a good point.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: And when I was putting together this outline of her
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: of her life, that was something that I kept getting
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: struck by the ways in which we have come so
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: far as a society in terms of accepting but also
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: the ways in which we have a lot further to
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: go as in terms of sort of accepting and supporting
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: folks who are on a journey right and so Conway
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: initially tried to transition while she was studying MIT in
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: the fifties, and so she basically started taking hormones that
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: she had procured.
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: On her own.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: And then she talked to a friend who was in
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: medical school to see if you could help her connect
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: to a doctor who might be able to help her,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and this friend ended up taking her to a dean
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: at the college, and that dean told her that she
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: did not stop taking these hormones on her own, that
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: she would end up at a mental institution. And this
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: fear of being institutionalized and also arrested is something that
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: really marked Lynn Conway's life, you know back then. You know,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: if you were if you were to you know, transition
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: or come out as trends in a lot of places,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: you could just be outright arrested. But also the threat
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: of being institutionalized in a mental institution, and you know,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: it's again, it's one of those things that it makes
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: me so sad that even today there are people that
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: equate being trans with being mentally ill or being a criminal.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Like it's one of those things that obviously it was
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: so salient to Lynn Conway back in the fifties, but
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: it's not like we've unfortunately, it's not like we have
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: completely moved beyond that, because there are certainly still people
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: out there today who believe, oh, if you're trans, you
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: belong in prison, you belong in an institution.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: You know, you're not quote unquote normal.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it is one of those ways that makes me,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: on the one hand, marvel at how far we've come,
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: but also lament that we have so much.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: Further to go.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, just all of the laws we've seen pass,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: the anti trans laws, it's just ongoing, and it's this
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: constant onslaught and you know, it's targeting in a lot
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: of cases young young children, like people in schools, and
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: it's so damaging and so toxic. And I can imagine
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: for Conway this that fear and being told by the
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Dean like this was a legitimate fear was a huge setback.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: Oh absolutely.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I mean Lynn Knaway talks about her time at MIT
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: as like fairly traumatic after this really disappointing turn of
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: events when she was trying to transition. Initially, she kind
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: of just put transitioning at the back of her mind.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: She got married, she became a parent, she started working
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: at IBM. At this time in Lynn's life, she from
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: the outside seemed to kind of have a picture of
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: perfect life. She was making major moves and innovations at IBM,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: which at the time was the seventh largest corporation in
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: the whole world. And while she was working at IBM,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: by all accounts, she was kicking ass. You know, she
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: invented a hardware protocol that enabled the out of order
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: command processing most computers still rely on today. But all
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: of this, all of this, these accomplishments, and all of
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: this like fantastic domestic life that she that she seemed
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: to be living, was put into jeopardy because of transphobia,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: and that transphobia would really alter the trajectory of her life.
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: I can't imagine a person who has that much stress
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: in their lives and that much conflict being able to, like,
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: what would she have really accomplished if she was able
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: to be fully accepted as who she was at that
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: point in time. And you know, and the other thought is,
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: like her friend really betrayed her. I can't imagine tried
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: ever coming out again, or even questioning again, or even
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: saying anything out loud because the person that she trusted
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: literally ranted her out in order to have this agenda
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: pushed against her, saying, nah, you better stay in the
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: norm aka what we think is normal, or you are
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: going to be criminalized essentially for who you are. And
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: I'm just like, ah, everything, Uh.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, That's something that I think about a lot when
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: it comes to things like transphobia. You know how much
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: brilliance does the world miss out on because of transphobia?
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Glenn Conway accomplished a lot, but could she accomplish so
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: much more if she wasn't putting up with this? And
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: so I think about trans folks today, you know, the
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: kinds of like ridiculous legislation that they have to spend
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: their time combating, the kinds of ridiculous myths and stereotypes
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: and misinformation about who they are and their identities. If
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: they didn't have to spend their time countering that kind
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: of nonsense, what could they be accomplishing? And so I
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: always wonder, not only is it completely unfair unacceptable that
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: trans folks have to put up with that, but we
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: all miss out, like we all miss out on contributions
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: that can make our lives better or we're interesting or
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: more creative. When marginalized people are saddled with these kinds
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: of you know, this kind of nonsense like an onslaught
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: of laws and misinformation about who they.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Are, right, Yeah, I feel like that we talk about
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: that a lot on here and all the things that,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: you know, the stories that aren't even being told, and
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: then that impacts what people think or who people think
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: are doing in technology or stinfield in general, who are
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: making these these big moves and you know, still using
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: this technology.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: That's we don't know. We don't know about her and.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Conway, even though she kind of put this transitioning on
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: the back burner and never really left her mind, right.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: So eventually she learned about the pioneering gender transition work
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: of doctor Harry Benjamin. He was a famous indochronologist and
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: sexologist who was really known for his clinical work with
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: trans folks. And she decided, I want to work with
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: this doctor. This is the doctor who is going to
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: help me. And this is something that I find so heartbreaking.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: That was in that Michigan engineering profile I mentioned earlier.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: It sounds like Conway and her then.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Spouse had really worked out like a solid plan of
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: the logistics of how this transition was going to work
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: for their family. They decided they were going to get
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: a divorce, and that Conway would start working with doctor
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Benjamin to transition, and that she was going to pay
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: child support from this IBM salary that she'd had, and
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: they decided that she was going to stay in the
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: lives of their children and that the children would call
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: her aunt, right, And so it sounds like as a
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: family unit, they had really ironed out how.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: This was going to work.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: And according to another really compelling piece I read in
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Forbes by Jeremy Alessandre, Conway's immediate family and IBM, like
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: her coworkers of IBM were actually pretty accepting and supportive
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: of her desire to transition at first, like even know
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: this was you know, the fifties, the sixties, Like they
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: were kind of okay with that, and my, we're supporting
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: this choice. However, when IBM's corporate medical director learned that
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Conwy was planning to transition in nineteen sixty eight, he
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: told CEO Thomas J. Watson Junior, who fired Conway to
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: avoid the public embarrassment of employing a trans woman, and
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: so all of this work that Conway had done with
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: her then spouse to iron out the logistics of how
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: this was going to work, you know, was basically pulled
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: from under her. And this really like it sounds like
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: this was like a completely destabilizing thing in her life.
• 16:37
  Speaker 6: Oh god, I mean yeah, absolutely.
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: If you think you have a plan and you're excited
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: about at least having forward steps and then having something
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: that is so traumatic that once again is portraying you
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: essentially something that you were so excited about and not
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: even excited about just trying to live your life as.
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: You truly are.
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: I can't imagine how this would have just deflated you.
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: I've been without a job, I've been fired, and that
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: sense of self is gone and self worth feels like
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: it's just a loss of yourself. So someone who can't
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: even express themselves losing even more of themselves. Holy crap.
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: And I can't on top of that like this again, y'all.
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: My Christmas was a doozy. But this again kind of
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: goes back to my conversation with my parents. Are like,
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: this is why these laws are important, This is why
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: anti discrimination laws need to be in place. And when
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: we talk about tugging at the strings, which is what
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: is happening under the Supreme Court, which is what we're
• 17:36
  Speaker 5: talking about every day, still these are things like this
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: can happen, and it truly I can't imagine what the
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: impact was for her to be fired during the middle
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: of a thing that she thought she could maybe finally
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: find herself.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so sad.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: It really seems like it started like a downward spiral
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: in her life. You know, she had to divorce her
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: else while losing her sole source of income, which you know, obviously,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: as you just described, like makes it that much more
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: difficult when you your source of income is gone, your
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: identity that was attached to having this like pretty big
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: deal job being not just being taken from you in
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: this way, but like your contributions. You know, she was
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: someone who kicked ass, who really made a lot of contributions,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: and being fired like this like meeting those contributions and
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: all of that work just sort of going overlooked because
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: of transphobia. And so it really sounds like this like
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: was a really dark time for her. The California Social
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Services tried to keep her away from her kids, and
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Conway's then expouse decided that she could not have any
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: contact with them because she was worried that if Conway
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: was in her kid's life that they would be taken
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: by the state. And at the time her kids were
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: just babies. They were two and four years old, And
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: this sounds like something that really stuck with Conway. In
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: this profile, she recalls that tore me up. Let me
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: tell you, the hardest part about the whole thing was
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that I really felt.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Like a mom to them.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: And again, just what a domino effect, A negative domino effect,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: being fired for being trans caused in her life, losing
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: her income, losing that identity, breaking up her family, and
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: she you know, she knew this was going to be
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: a really tough process, and she relied on her lessons
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: that she had learned from this lifetime love of outdoor
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: adventures like canoeing and rock climbing to steady herself. She
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: described it, Now, I had a plan to get across
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: the river, she said. I could see the steps I
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: had to make. I could see the dangers and how
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: to protect against them. The only problem was I didn't
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: know where I'd end up on the other side.
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: So even though this.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Had cost her her job, her family, her domestic life,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: she still continued to work with doctor Benjamin to transition right.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: And there were so many as that quote described challenges
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: and obstacles beyond what.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: We've already talked about.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Which is already a lot so so much so, can
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: you talk about some of the challenges that were that
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Conway faced around this transition?
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so, as a lot of trans folks will probably
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: tell you some of the logistics around transition, you know,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: things like changing your name, getting new identification and paperwork
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: is going to be a big part of navigating trans
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: identity so that you can work and earn an income
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: and have a bank account and get a place to live.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: Even today, this process.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Is really complicated and sometimes like prohibitively expensive, and again
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I'm sad to say that not a lot you know,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: was hard back then, and unfortunately it's hard today. Unfortunately
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: a lot of trans folks don't have the support or
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: resources they need to navigate it. According to the National
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Transgender Discrimination Survey, only one fifth of trans people who
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: have transitioned have been able to update all of their
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: IDs and records with their new gender, and one third
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: have not been able to update any of their IDs
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: or records. Luckily, for Conway, she was able to use
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: connections that doctor Benjamin had in Oakland, California to get
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: it done quickly, which, as you might imagine, was really
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: really important to avoid suspicion back then, because you know,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: it could easily turn unsafe if somebody suspected, you know,
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: that you were transitioning or that you were trans and
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: so being able to navigate this quickly was of the
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: utmost importance for her. She has this quote, she says,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: you were an undocumented alien from Mars.
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: You don't have a birth certificate. How are you going
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: to get a job? This was the sixties.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: You can think of it like being a spy in
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: a foreign country. If you were found out, you'd be
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: dealt with immediately, if not by the police, then by
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: people on the streets. And so it's probably clear that
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: why after actually going through this transition, Conway started the
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: period of her life which she refers to as her
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: the stealth phase of her career.
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: Okay, so this entire thing feels like it should be
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: a giant movie, right, It should be a feature movie somehow,
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: whether it's like coming of age and or just overall like, yeah,
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: it could be like a spy movie in the industry,
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: but it's not not.
• 21:53
  Speaker 6: I'm just saying that from her quote in itself.
• 21:55
  Speaker 5: But it's an amazing account of all of the things
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: that she has gone through. I feel like, hello, actors,
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: this is an Oscar level of performers if you can
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: get it, and it should be done by a trainswoman obviously.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, could you talk about it and watch this?
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: I want to see this. Can you talk about this
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: stealth based? Because yeah, I'm really into the movie now.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: So in nineteen sixty nine, Conway changed her name, hit
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: her gender identity, and started looking for work and computing. Eventually,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: she found a job as a contract programmer, which is
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: like pretty entry level, but because she is like a
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: bad ass, she pretty quickly moved up. She later worked
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: at MEMORYS and then landed what I'm calling.
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: The big account.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: You know in movies when someone's like, oh he got
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the big account, Like this was Conway's like her big
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: account working at Xerox's Palo Alto research center, which is
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: a huge, huge deal. And again, because she is a badass,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: she immediately started like kicking ass, just like she had
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: before at IBM before getting fired.
• 22:55
  Speaker 6: Is that a Silicon city? In making that up? Is
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: that the beginning is that.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I think that's like that, like the Silicon Valley area. Yeah,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Like that was like where so many of the technological
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: innovations that like we still have today that really shaped
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: like where computers and technology and smartphones ended up going.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: So much of that research happened right there. So like
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: the big account.
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: So she literally was at the beginning of what is
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: known as one of the biggest technological industrial times of
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: our age. Wow.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And again like that alone, even if
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: like like I find her story so fascinating and inspiring,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: but like that alone is a huge deal, right, Like
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: we haven't even gotten into some of the other parts
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: of her life, But that alone, being a trans woman
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: at the forefront and the preceidice of all of these
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: things that would go on to revolutionize all of our
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: lives is so.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: Interesting to me. Like that alone would be a huge accomplishment.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, and speaking of there were many other accomplishments that
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: she was taking part in during this time, right.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: So I have to give a little bit of a
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: caveat that, Like, I am not an engineer, so engineers
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: who are listening don't come after me if I say
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: the wrong thing. I'm summarizing. I am a non hard
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: tech person summarizing someone who was like one of the
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: most brilliant tech.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: Minds on the planet.
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: Give me some just know that.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: Yeh.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: So her work completely revolutionized how microchips were designed, and
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: she sometimes called the Hidden Hands, like that's her nickname
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: for this work and how it led to the tech
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: revolution in the eighties and nineties, and again it's like
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: a big part of the reason why we have smartphones
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: and personal computers. But even while she was accomplishing all
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: of these important innovations, she really couldn't own them because
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: of her identity. Again, she says that she was working
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: in sort of stealth mode where she was just kind
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: of purposely staying behind the scenes despite creating these innovations
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: that would literally go on to change the world. And
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: during this time, her trans identity was not public knowledge.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: She only told close friends or like hr people or
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: people who were needed to like do her security clearance,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: and she purposely made herself scarce and stayed behind the scenes,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: you know, hence the nickname the Hidden Hand. But that
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: meant all of her accomplishments and innovations they also stayed
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: behind the scenes too. And you know, it's one of
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: those things where this is not like you know, people
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: are like, oh, women's history is all of our history,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: or black history is all of our history, or trans
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: history is all of our history.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: This is you know, everybody uses a computer.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Or a smartphone for the most part, and like, transphobia
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: almost kept us from having a full accounting of this
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: history that shaped all of our lives, right, like Lynn
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Conway touched like her work touched all of us, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: we almost did not get a full accounting of it
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: because of the harmful legacy of transphobia and transphobic systems. O.
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: Wait, can we first say that The Hidden Hand is
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: the title of the movie?
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: That's right?
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: If there are any like movie like The Hidden Hand?
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: Perfect Maybe I've been watching Way to Meet martial arts film,
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: but I'm like, wait, wait, wait, this is like Asian
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: level of martial arts stealth movie. I don't know what's happening,
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: but I'm seeing it. Maybe just needs to be transformed
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: into that. I don't know, but yeah, I hate that.
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: This is once again, when we talk about women in history,
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: especially women in marginalized communities, how they literally have to
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: shrink in order to accomplish what they have to do
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: quote unquote to live what they need to do and
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: be who they need to be, to shrink and disappear
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: into the background so they don't make.
• 26:51
  Speaker 6: Too much noise.
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: And that is what has been taught for so long,
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: and this is one of the prime examples for so many,
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: especially again within the queer community. Yeah, within like women
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: in colors, especially black women, being told, yeah, you can
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: do it, but you don't be loud about it, because
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: then you're just going to cost too much of a
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: ruckus and your personal life.
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: You just being you will be a distraction.
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: And I'm enraged right now just thinking about it as
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: I continue on, because this is such a pattern with
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: our society and the misogynistic idea overall, that this is
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: how it should have been, and this is how everybody
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: accepted it and was okay with it. And I'm reading
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: all the things that you put in here, and I'm like, wow, wow, wow, Like,
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: how how.
• 27:35
  Speaker 6: Do you keep going?
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: How do you continue to persevere and create these amazing
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: things when there's so much against you, when you're being
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: continually told don't exist point blank.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's enraging. And it's like, you know,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: you were talking about these conversations you were having over
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: the holidays with your family. I think for a lot
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: of people it's exactly what you said. It's I don't
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: hate queer people, I don't hate trans people. I just
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: don't want to. I don't want to think I have
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: to think about them. I don't want them to take
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: up too much space, like this idea that you know.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: I remember having similar conversations with my family where they
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: would be like, well, I just don't want to shove
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: them my face, and it's like, no one's shoving it
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: in like like for for some people, just existing is
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: shoving it in your face, right, just like taking up
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: space and being yourself is equated with, like quote, shoving.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: It in someone's face. And so I agree.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: I think that it's such a pattern where women, queer folks,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: trans folks, black folks, folks of color.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: The only way that we're told that we.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Can safely exist is if we shrink ourselves and sort
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: of try to disappear and try to stay off the radar.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And it breaks my heart that that's what Lynn Conway
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: had to do. But again, what could we what kind
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: of world could we live in if all these folks
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: didn't feel like that's what they had to do.
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: Just to exist, right, I mean literally to be able
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: to say I'm here and this is who I am
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: in the story.
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: And she's not asking for recognition. She never was. She
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: just wanted to be.
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: And I think that's where I want to throw things,
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: throw things at lots of people, especially obviously the people
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: who are ignorant and are continued to spread these types
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: of hate and this type of environment, saying that the
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: only way that we are happy is if my norm
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: from way back when, which is steeped in misogyny, steeped
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: in patriarchy, steeped in racism, that if this exists, not okay,
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: as long as you don't, you don't exist in my
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: world and I don't have to think about you.
• 29:38
  Speaker 6: And that's just a whole other level.
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: But you know what, if this is the movie, I
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: feel like this is the arc where she becomes triumphant.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yeah, So this is where I think it
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: gets so interesting.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: So basically, Conway had made all of these big contributions,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: not just during her time at x RATS, but also
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: going back to nineteen sixty eight when she was still
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: at IBM. And you know, at this point, none of
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: these contributions were really attributed to her. In nineteen ninety nine,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: a computer historian began investigating her early innovations at IBM,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: which tipped her off that other people had been taking credit,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: or had been like kind of sort of low key
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: taking credit for the work at IBM that she had
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: done under a different name. She wanted to correct the record,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: but in order to do so, she knew that she
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: would need to open up about her identity and explain
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: why somebody with a different name had made all of
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: these big contributions and accomplishments that she was saying actually
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: belonged to her. And so she ended up telling this
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: computer historian and then quietly added a quote gender transition
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: section to her own website. And this small, quiet decision
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: is what really sparked the next chapter of her life,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: as this you know, outspoken advocate for trans writes and
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: what an interesting conundrum that would be to say, like, well,
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I want to correct the record. I want people to
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: know that this was me that I did this work.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: But in order to do that, I really have to,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: you know, oh, open up about my identity in a
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: way that I haven't really.
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: Been so comfortable with before.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: And so how interesting it is that that personal choice,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: and that personal, you know, conundrum for Linn Conway would
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: go on to broaden all of our understanding of our
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: world and all of our understanding of like why we
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: have the technology that we do and who is responsible
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: for it. And so I just always thought that was
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: an interesting way that like this personal dilemma for Conway
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: had these massive global implications for all of us and
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: our understanding of technology and the internet and history.
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of those things where for for some
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: people that would be such a like minor thing, but
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: to that's huge to have to make that decision and
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to also like weigh the implications of your personal life
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: on something that, again, for a lot of people might
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: be pretty minor. But this is changes Lynn Conway's life,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and it changes all of ours and all all of
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: the understanding and information we have about things we do
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: use all of the time and who's behind those and
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: who's responsible for those, And yeah, it's not an easy
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: thing to do at all. But also, yeah, this really
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: led her down this path of advocating for trans rights.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely, So, the list of all the different ways
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: that she became this outspoken advocate for trans rights, it's very,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: very long, She's given support and assistance to many trans
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: women who were going through transition, and she was an
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: advocate for employment protections for trans folks and then also
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: just a general advocate for trans folks in technology. One
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: of my favorite things about her that she has done
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: is that in twenty thirteen, Conway and Leandra Vicki of
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill successively lobbied the
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Board of Directors of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: which is essentially a code of ethics pertaining to the
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: engineering profession to include trans identity, which impacts you know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: the largest engineering professional society today. And so that's going
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: to have like global, far reaching impacts to make that
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: trans inclusive. And so that was work that she was
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: able to do because she had become this like outspoken
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: advocate for trans rights. And then like, yeah, just you know,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy that she had this time in her
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: life where she was able to be a vocal advocate
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: for her people and make change for other people coming
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: up in technology, Like I think that's so beautiful.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, and I gotta ask, did IBM ever
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: you know, come back with the athology well.
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: So that's a great question.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: So you're probably thinking, wow, Conway is basically this like
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: world changing badass, who is the reason we have smartphones.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: IBM really messed up by firing her, and they would agree.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: After over fifty years of silence about how they treated
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Lyn Conway, finally in October of twenty twenty, IBM invited
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: their staff to an event called tech Trailblazers and transgender
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: pioneer Lynn Conway in conversation with Diane Gerson. And Garrison,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: at the time was IBM's senior vice president of human Resources,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: and the event started with a formal apology to Conway
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: for her transphobic firing fifty two years earlier, and Conway
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: said that when this was happening, she was like struggling
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: to hold back tears. And not only did they apologize,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: but they also recognized her immense and deep contributions to
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: IBM's work that again had just gone like unattributed because
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: they fired her. So they fired her to avoid being
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: associated with a trans woman, and so.
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: They couldn't very well be like, oh, well, all of.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: These different things we are contributions we have because of
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: this transwoman we fired for being trans so they basically
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: just like overlooked and unattributed all of this work that
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: she had done. Dario Gill, director of IBM Research, presented
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: Conway with a Lifetime Achievement Award, given to individuals who
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: have changed the world through technological innovations, and Gil noted
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: that Lynn's extraordinary tech nical achievements helped to find the
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: modern computing industry. She paved the way for how we
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: design and make computing ships today and forever change microelectronics
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: devices and people's lives. And again, you know, it was
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: fifty two years later that this company finally acknowledged that
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: after she was fired in nineteen sixty eight, that her
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: research was still aiding IBM success today. A spokesperson for
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: IBM said, in nineteen sixty five, Lynn created the architectural
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: level Advanced Computing System one simulator and invented a method
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: that led to the development of a super scalar computer.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: This dynamic instruction scheduling invention was later used at computer ships,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: greatly improving their performance. And so basically all of that
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: is to say, finally IBM was like, oh, yeah, this
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: like groundbreaking research that she did we still use today
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: and like actually really helped us today. And you know it,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: just for me is like, finally, fifty two years later,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: you can apologize and acknowledge, and Conway said of the event,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: instead of just being a resolution of what happened in
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, it became a heart I felt group
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: celebration of how far we've all come since then.
• 36:04
  Speaker 6: Wait, so did the dude that fired her? Was he
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: still alive? Because I just really need to know that
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: he needs to know.
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: That I apologize him. I really need to see this.
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: I want him sitting in the board meeting, hearing this
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: conversation and them saying, you know what, this is your fault.
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: You messed up, and we're having to do this to
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: do a Maya copa because of what I really need
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: that in the back of my head, I want.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: A if he I don't know if he's so alive,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: but if you're if he is, I want a personalized
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: video message apology.
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: This is what I need.
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: And you know what, because I feel like again, this
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: is a movie in my head that I've been playing
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: for the last thirty and what some thirty somewhat minutes.
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: I need to know.
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: I need to see the scene of her standing by
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: the river with her nice home, talking about her past,
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: sitting with hopefully her children and her grandchildren.
• 36:59
  Speaker 6: And talking about where she is today.
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: So can you please finish out this conclusion that I
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: desperately need.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm happy to you.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: And this is something else that I like love about
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: her story is that she's still very much alive. January second,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: she celebrated her eighty fifth birthday, so just a few
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: weeks ago. Happy birthday, Happy birthday.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: And something else.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: That I love about her story is that like she
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: you know, when I was researching for this episode, I
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: found all these great videos of her.
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: She is living her best life.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: She is on twenty four beautiful acres of meadow marsh
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: and woodlands and rural Michigan with her husband, where they
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: spend all of their time like exploring the outdoors.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: You know. I saw these videos of them writing, like.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Four wheelers together on their property, and like canoeing together,
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: and like climbing together, and I just felt like, I'm
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: so happy that she is like living her best life
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: and she's still an amazing activist.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: You can follow her on Twitter at Lynn Conway.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm so happy that her story ends with
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: her with a loving husband, living her best life in Michigan,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: exploring the outdoors.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I love that this theme of like adventure
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and canoeing has been so foundational and helped her through
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: these like tough times in her life. And now she
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: has all this land and she gets to still explore
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: those things that bring her joy.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: That makes me very happy.
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really sweet.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Like if anybody like definitely that you can google pictures
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: of her and google videos of her on her property
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: and like it's it's the cutest.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: It like melted my heart. It made me very very happy.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: I need this.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Or trying you, Samantha, I feel like you need to
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: be attached to this project if it.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: Ever is exploding.
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: Like this is what I needed today.
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: The feel good but like heart wrenching tell of coming
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: through all the trials and tribulation and then coming to
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: the end with her massive property, happily with holding hands
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: with her husband, loving life.
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: It makes me so happy.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: And I just kind of say, like, you know, trans
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: people like Lynn Conway deserve to live full, beautiful lives
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: that account for their contributions and their brilliance. And they
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: deserve that regardless of where they are on their journeys,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: you know, transition. Like obviously this story was very focused
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: around Conway's transition, but transition means different things to different people,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Like it can mean personal and medical and legal steps,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: or like telling someone's family and friends and coworkers, or
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: using a different name or new pronouns, or dressing differently,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: or it can be different things for different people.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: And as we discussed.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Earlier, you know, it can be really financially prohibitive for many.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: And so regardless of whether or not trans folks are
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: able to transition the way that Conway did, they deserve
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: to live full lives like they deserve whatever their particular
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: version of a twenty four acre farm on the woodlands
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: and rural Michigan is like, they deserve that, whether they
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: can transition the way that she did or not. And so,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: you know, I just want to say that because I
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: think that sometimes can feel like the reason why her
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: story gets the happy ending is because she was able
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: to transition. And I think that everybody deserves a full
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: life and a happy ending, regardless of where they are
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: on that journey.
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: I mean, that's the end goal is people live their
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: best life, to truly have the freedom and the peace
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: and happy of pursuit of happiness, as they should, because
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: this is about them, it's not about us. When people
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: are disenfranchised and pushed to the point of being non existent,
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: that's when we lose great minds, and that's what we
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: lose greatness in general. And it breaks my heart obviously,
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: as you have brought this story to us, that this
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: is a good ending, and I love that we can
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: celebrate her while she's still here and give her the
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: flowers that she deserves while she's still here.
• 40:45
  Speaker 6: But at the same time, you.
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: Know, we can't look past the fact that she had
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: to go through this in the first place. And though
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: she was able to get through it, and thank God
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: that she was able to, there's so many others who
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: are pushed beyond those boundaries, and that we don't get
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: to sell who they are because of hate and ignorance
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: and the continued need to erase and completely censure these
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: amazing people just for who they are, just for living.
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: And we cannot be quiet.
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: And belittle the fact that this is an ongoing issue
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: today and the many who have been killed, the many
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: who have died by suicide, like all of these things
• 41:24
  Speaker 5: are important that we keep talking about what great success
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: can look like. But the fact that that she shouldn't
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: have have gone through half the ship that she had
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: to go through and have many of these people have
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: to go through.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's one of the reasons why her story
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: sticks with me because it just reminds me to sell
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: it to like build the monuments to these marginalized people
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: who are so often erased, and do so as a
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: way to honor the people who didn't make it, the
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: people whose voices and whose stories we won't hear, the
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: people who are making contributions that we don't know about
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: right now, right that we won't find out about. And so,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I think it's so important that we, just
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: like you said that, we don't let sexist, racist, transphobic
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: systems erase these accomplishments because they are important to all
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: of us. There there are history as just as people
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: as humans. And so it's you really said it, like
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: it's so important to me. And Conway has this great
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: piece kind of looking back on her life in the
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Huffington Post and it ends with this great line, bottom line,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: if you want to change the future, start living as
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: if you're already there.
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: And I love that for her. I love the idea
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: of all.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Of us taking responsibility to sort of create the world
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: we want to see and build these these monuments to
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: these marginalized voices that we desperately need. So Lynn Conway,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: you are a hero. You are incredible, Your story is amazing.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: You are a badass. And I'm so glad that we
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: can talk about her while she's still alive. Like we
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: could go tweet at her if you wanted, Like, that's incredible,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: that is living history.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: That is coneet at her from the technologies she health created.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: That got me really excited.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: And thank you, Bridget for bringing this story for always,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: you know, finding these these things that we might have
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: missed that are so important, are so so valuable for
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: us to know and talk about.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: So we really appreciate it. And thank you.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you, oh thank you for giving me the space
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: to do it. This is my favorite thing to do
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: in the world. It makes me so happy. So thank
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: thanks to the both of you.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, I can't wait to do it again. We'll
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: see what we can get moving with this motion picture deal.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: But in the meantime, Bridget, where can the good listeners
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: find you?
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: You can find me at my own podcast called There
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Are No Girls on the Internet, where we love digging
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: into the unexplored, overlooked history of marginalized folks and how
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: they shape technology in the Internet. You can find me
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: on Instagram at Bridget Marie and DC and on Twitter,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: probably tweeting at Lyn Conway how much I love her
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: at Bridget Murray.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, I love it, I love it.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Definitely go check all that stuff out listeners, if you
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: haven't already, thank you again Bridget to wait to hang
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: out again in this virtual weird pandemic setting, and thank
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you listeners for listening. If you want to contact us,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: you can our email Stuffidia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram a stuff when Never Told You. Thanks
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you and
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening. Stuff Will Never Told You.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Distrection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: it's the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: You listen to your favorite shows.