Latest / Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt / CI to Eye | Political Shifts and Cultural Stakes of 2025

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CI to Eye | Political Shifts and Cultural Stakes of 2025 · Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt

0:09
Hey everybody, it's Christopher Williams. Today on the podcast,
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we are welcoming back Brett Egan,
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president of the DeVos Institute of Arts and Nonprofit Management.
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Brett joins us at a critical moment for our sector.
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Recent political shifts in the United States, including executive orders,
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proposed agency closures, and changes to our federal funding guidelines,
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have placed cultural organizations at the center of a national conversation
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about how institutions uphold their values and navigate their role in a rapidly
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changing America. In this episode,
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Brett helps us navigate the latest developments,
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offering insight into the risks organizations face and the bold opportunities
0:51
that might emerge from this turbulent time.
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We'll talk about how to prepare for threats to our industry,
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like shrinking grant funding, increasing restrictions on our speech,
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and instability in higher education and international relations,
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but we'll also explore a proactive outlook and rethink what resilience means for
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our industry moving forward.
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If you're wondering how to lead with both courage and pragmatism when the ground
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keeps shifting underneath our feet, this conversation is for you.
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Without further ado, here's Brett Egan.
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Brett Egan, welcome back to CI to Eye.
1:38
Thanks, Christopher.
1:40
The last time you were here was five years ago,
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which that in and of itself feels like a crazy thing to say,
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but it was days after the March 2020
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Covid shutdown.
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And you recorded an episode of the podcast with our founder Erik
1:59
Gensler,
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which quite frankly holds up really well today when you go back and listen to
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it. It's quite interesting.
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So there are things afoot in the world again today, and so here you are,
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hopefully back to give us some of your sage
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guidance.
2:16
I appreciate that, Christopher.
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Some days it feels like it's been like 35 years since that talk with Erik.
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Don't we get -- each Covid year was a dog year.
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We get seven years credit for each of those dog years.
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Yeah, that is a very --
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It's been 26 years since my discussion with Erik,
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and in some cases it feels like it was just yesterday. I mean,
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when the fifth anniversary of Covid blew by I guess almost exactly a month ago,
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it sort of left me breathless thinking that it's actually been five years.
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Because a lot of the impacts have left traces
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and we're still working through them. But yeah,
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that conversation with Erik came at a time when the world went
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sideways, and so whenever I feel distressed,
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I try to put together a plan. You might even call it a neurosis,
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and I suppose we find ourselves here in a different form of 50
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shades of darkness looking for similar structure.
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So what has brought us together is our combined desire
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to discuss what has been happening in the world,
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but more specifically what is happening to arts and culture as a
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result of the administration.
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And you have made quite a study of some of that so
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far, I know.
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I know that not everyone can stay on top of all of this.
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Some people very much choose to ignore it because it's just more than they can
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handle.
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But can we start by just doing a broad overview
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of what has happened so far?
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And I should say we are recording this at 10:30 in the morning on Friday,
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April 25th,
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and I think everyone will understand that we have to say things like that these
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days because there are things that are constantly coming at us and changing.
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Depending on when you're listening to this,
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it might be important for you to know the date.
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Well, here's my response to that, Christopher.
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Thank goodness we have institutions like the National Council of Nonprofits
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and Americans for the Arts that are keeping tabs on this daily.
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I have grown to really rely on their synthesis and consult with their
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resources as often as I can, trying to make sense of the changes,
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make sense of what has been said and what this means for all of us. It's a mess.
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It's a total mess and there are huge areas of uncertainty
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and it's exhausting to try to keep up with it. As of right now,
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the two executive orders 14173,
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which was illegal DEI, and 14168,
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which is gender ideology,
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those are the two that were issued early on that remain the most relevant
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executive orders,
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and we are still in a gray space as to whether or not those two executive orders
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are or are not going to have an impact on what the National Endowment
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for the Arts will fund. The National Endowment for the Arts has said that it
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is undertaking a process of internal review and it will clarify its position in
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respect to whether or not those two EOs are going to be taken into account
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specifically within the assurance of compliance.
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And the question really is whether or not the NEA will be formally and
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finally changing its guidelines in response to those two executive orders.
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And I don't have the answer to that. As far as I know,
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nobody has the answer to that as we sit here today. In principle, April 30,
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we'll see. When this podcast is released,
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NEA is meant to produce some clarity there and
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there will be implications for programs and
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possibly speech that intersects with the
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at present definition of illegal DEI
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and gender ideology. I will remind our listeners,
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I'm sure folks are following along on this very closely,
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that is the subject of the current suit filed by ACLU
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in partnership with TCG, Theater Communications Group,
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group of theaters of Rhode Island... That is under injunction as well,
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at present. It is a tangle of issues,
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and there was another slate of executive orders,
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which just was released this week that pertains to the field of education,
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and I think people are still unpacking what the relevance of those are for arts
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and culture, but that's -- so far as I understand it -- where we stand today.
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What about our museum and library friends and things
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that are happening to IMLS and the NEH? What are your thoughts there?
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The situation there is both of the agencies, for practical purposes,
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have been at least temporarily shuttered or destabilized to the
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point where they would have a very hard time functioning,
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including making grants.
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And I think that we all know that in the case of IMLS and in the case of NEH,
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previously made grants have in some cases been suspended or been recalled.
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We also know that, for instance,
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grants to state humanities councils have stopped,
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and this is really devastating to the state humanities councils.
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I fully expect and I think we will see that many of the state humanities
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councils,
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and in particular those who service more rural areas of the country,
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will cease to operate within a matter of months.
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There's a crisis there for sure.
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Yeah.
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What have you heard from your clients or friends in the sector
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as we've all sort of experienced what just basically generally feels like an
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attack over the last few months? What are you hearing?
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How are people feeling?
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Yeah, it's a very confusing,
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vexing and overwhelming time for many,
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and I think that we are sort of as a sector grappling
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with two vectors of psychological activity.
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One: as I think generally sentient, conscientious, thoughtful people,
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we have a concern for our nation. We have a concern for our democracy.
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We have a concern for our institutions.
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We are questioning the core values of our
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nation, whether they're shared,
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but then when we drop down and we go to our office and we sit in front of our
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computer and we're looking in our inbox and we're thinking about payroll and
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we're thinking about cashflow,
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there are also the second layer of concerns about how that
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filters down into our business.
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And here there are a dozen vectors at least that we're
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dealing with,
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and it's a mess to untangle and it is overwhelming to think about.
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Right.
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One of the experiences that I've shared with you is my front row seat to
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what has happened to the Kennedy Center.
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My organization has worked with that organization for a very long time.
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It is a daily trauma to sit next to.
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I don't think any of us could have imagined that something like this would
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happen, and happen this quickly.
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And I have tremendous empathy for all of my personal and professional
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relationships that still exist inside of that organization.
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It's definitely still happening to many people that a lot of us care about,
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and it's been a complicated thing, I think,
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for the industry to engage with because it's sort of like,
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to boycott or not?
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What does it mean to pull your support when those people are still there?
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It's super complicated and you made the point in a previous conversation that
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all of this has put arts and culture back on the front pages,
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above the fold, and what does that mean for all of us?
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How can we actually take advantage of the fact that that is happening?
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Yeah. Well, when I look at what's happened at the Kennedy Center,
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I share your concern and I share your compassion for the people who are
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affected by the change that's taking place there.
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There's a lot of suffering and there's a good deal of contest and some
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litigation and that's going to play out.
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And I think it is not a phenomenon that we necessarily would've chosen,
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that would've transpired in this way,
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but it is a phenomenon that the National Endowment for the Arts,
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the National Endowment for Humanities, the I-M-L-S-C-B-P,
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the Kennedy Center, these massive pillars of American arts, culture,
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humanities,
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which for most of recent memory have
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not been headline items, are now headline items with consistency.
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I think the sector has a question ahead of it, which is,
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is there some use to make of the fact that the work that we do,
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that we have always felt is central to civil society,
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is critical to American democracy,
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is an essential tool for self-realization and the affirmation
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of the huge and incredible diversity and pluralism of identities in our
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country... We believe these things and in a sense,
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the actions that have been recently taken affirm that.
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Not perhaps in the way in which we would want. Nonetheless, we're here.
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I mean the spotlight that the administration has shown on the power of arts
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and culture,
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the power of arts and culture to help define the psyche of a nation,
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to facilitate ideas,
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to be a place of welcome and belonging or be a place
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of ideological contest.
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We have the opportunity as a sector to look at the changes that are taking
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place and say, well, does that produce any opening for us?
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Does it produce any opening for us to think in a different way or does it
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produce any opening for us to have a different type of conversation with
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ourselves or with the nation? I've started to try to come around to,
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how do we organize our thinking here? And the framework that I've settled on
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is the following. There are certainly things that we cannot control.
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We are not going to be able to affect the global economy.
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We are probably not going to be able to affect the way in which global society
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views American decision making.
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We don't have the power most likely to produce a megaphone that is going to
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outweigh the headlines that come out of the global press on a daily basis that
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are reflecting upon changes taking place in our country.
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And I think even though these concern us and they concern us deeply,
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we have to put those in one column and we have to build another column that
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says, okay, here are the things that we can control,
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areas that we need to defend ourselves and we need to defend our institutions.
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And then also areas where we might be able to make some progress. Or,
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what we might call defense and offense.
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Let's get into that. Where do we start? Offense or defense?
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We're going to start with defense.
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So the first huge cluster obviously within the context of defense is the arts
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and culture sector's relationship with the federal government,
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and the first focal point is the agencies.
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IMLS, NEH, NEA, CVP.
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One thing we can certainly do is rally to the defense of the
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agencies that are taking the lead, and I think it's AFTA, AAM,
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the American Library Association, the National Council of Nonprofits,
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and there are others,
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and all of them have put forward frameworks for communicating with Congress.
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Second, for anybody who has received a grant termination,
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especially our friends in the humanities,
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working through the National Council of Nonprofits.
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They appear to be the tip of the spear in pushing back.
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Also in the defense category,
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I think we have to begin to consider that the money that we
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have received from the agencies... Unfortunately,
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I think at this point we have to consider it a nice-to-have,
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not a must-have as we move through. And we have to deal with it.
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It's emotional, it's unfair.
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Aspects of it may be on contestable legal grounds,
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the speed is shocking, but really it's not surprising.
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So should we rally to the defense of these institutions? Of course we should.
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Absolutely. Is it going to make a difference this time with this congress?
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I don't know. Time will tell.
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The odds look a bit worse today than they did in previous cycles,
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so how do we think about money in our own budgets?
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It's different for sure moving forward.
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The other big thing obviously that we're contending with on the defense side is
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speech. This one is tough.
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EO 14173, which was the quote illegal DEI EO,
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and then 14168, which is gender ideology -- both of these, obviously,
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they have funding implications in so far as they intersect with the agencies,
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but they also have clear speech implications and the fights that are going on in
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the courts in respect to the two of these are referencing first amendment and
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speech issues.
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But we are in a gray zone right now. We're in a gray zone right now about how
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this might be enforced and upon whom. Now the big question is,
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do we remove our language now from our website?
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What does it mean to acquiesce? What does it mean to push back?
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And what are going to be the implications of those two courses?
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I don't think there's a standard.
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I think these are individual debates that somehow we have been pulled into that
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we have to settle at the organization level. But then again,
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I also really ask organizations to think, what is the exact pressure?
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What is the exact pressure that we're facing to change our language?
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Is there a specific grant at this point that we're not going to get,
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we feel we should get and we won't get unless we do it? Did we receive a letter?
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Are we worried that we might receive a letter and are we acting too soon?
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I'm not advising any of my colleagues,
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certainly not the ones who do not rely upon big grants
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from the federal government,
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to make any changes at all if they still hold the same values.
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In fact,
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I am seeing certain organizations actually double down on their language and
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their commitments in particular principles of DEI and doing quite well with
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individual donors who agree with them and foundations that agree with them.
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I just want to ask people to discern between,
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is there a direct catalyst that forces action and do you wish to take action or
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do you wish to tell the catalyst we don't need you if you can afford to do that?
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Another thing really on my mind, Christopher,
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is universities and university-based arts programs. And as we start to see
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our universities imperiled in many cases -- in many cases,
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it's not like the administration is saying,
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we're cutting arts funding to the universities. We know that's not the case,
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but when you see universities losing a billion dollars here and $6 billion
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here in research money and you realize that inside of that research money,
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a significant chunk of it pays for administrative overhead and facilities,
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of course it's going to trickle down.
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And so in the university context in particular,
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one thing that I think donors can do,
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and one thing I think administrators can do,
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is start to have this conversation now and talk about what
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impacts may be coming next fiscal and to prepare for that.
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And then the other sort of big thing as it pertains to the federal government is
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just international relations and impacts for US arts organizations and artists,
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for any arts organization or artist who has enjoyed a sense of global community.
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Sadly, the position of the US in the global discussion is changing,
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and I think it's going to have an impact on touring,
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on international cooperation, and in many cases,
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the money that arts and cultural organizations based in the US derive from
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international participation.
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Yeah. I've literally heard from a number of organizations already stories about
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international artists saying,
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'We are not comfortable coming to the US' and pulling away.
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Yeah, there's, do people want to come here? The list is endless,
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right? I mean, let me move on to the economy for a minute.
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There's obviously the tariffs, the impact on 401Ks, the uncertainty.
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That's not good for us, right?
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We're definitely looking out at fiscal '26 with conservative contributed revenue
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projections. We're absolutely recalibrating.
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We are anticipating the possible impact of a recession.
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When we think back about which recession is most likely to
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resemble the one that's coming up if we have one,
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I think unfortunately it's 2008, which was the hardest.
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But during that time, foundations were most reliable.
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Individuals were second most helpful.
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Government historically had been pretty supportive,
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but I wouldn't count on that this fall or early '26,
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especially not for arts and culture. And then corporate, sadly,
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in every recession, arts have been cut first.
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So I would say sort of as we approach this upcoming fiscal season,
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on the defense side,
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obviously there's a huge cluster about the relationship with the federal
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government. There's a cluster around the changing economy,
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and I think there's one cluster around continuing to deal with audiences,
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the potential of recession and sort of ongoing distraction that they have as
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well. And this leads me to think
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if we can a little bit more assertively about getting off our heels
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and onto our toes.
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The defense of all of this is fairly overwhelming,
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and I know you have some great ideas about how
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we can make moves offensively,
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and I would love for you to take us up if we can.
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Yeah.
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I'm going to go back for a minute to our relationship with the agencies
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and reiterate that I think our first step is to
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defend these investments,
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but I think that we also have to contemplate an intermediate,
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if not near term,
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potential reality that these agencies may not be the same or they may not
20:17
exist at all. That would be a seismic shift,
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and I think we are faced there with a gap.
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If you combine how much grant money was distributed by the three
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agencies in fiscal '25, or I should say budgeted to be distributed,
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it was about 450 million. About a 135-137 million from the NEA,
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110 and change from the NEH, and about 200 million from IMLS.
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There's about 150 million or 152 million taxpayers in
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the United States. So on average,
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about three bucks a person who pays taxes has
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made its way into the government and made its way back out to the ecosystem. In
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the event that we wake up on some Thursday morning and read
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that the NEA, the NEH,
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and IMLS have effectively been either defunded or
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decommissioned... on the one hand,
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we have a extremely distressing and sad
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event. On the other hand,
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we have an American public that we know values its museums,
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its libraries, and its arts entities,
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and I do think that if a
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critical mass of our national advocacy organizations
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committed to work together to tell this story,
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there's enough demand in the American psyche for arts, culture,
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museums, libraries, performances...
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to get a campaign that would result in --
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whether we look at it as 152 million taxpayers each contributing
22:02
$3 each,
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whether we look at it as QR codes on every library card in America that link
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to a campaign page,
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whether we look at it as a 25 cent or 50 cent contribution
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tied electively to each ticket purchased for each
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performance.
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I think that if Americans for the Arts and the National Assembly of State Arts
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Agencies and the TCGs and the Dance USAs and the Opera Americas and the Chorus
22:29
Americas and the League of American Orchestras, AAM, AAMD,
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American Library Association, the State Arts and Humanities Councils,
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the Trust for Historical Preservation, grant makers in the arts,
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DeVos Institutes...
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I think if these leadership organizations came together and said to the American
22:47
public, we've lost this. Together,
22:50
we can build this. I think we have perhaps a once in a
22:55
generation opportunity to have a conversation with the American public about the
22:59
role of arts and culture in America that could result in the unprecedented
23:04
elective contribution in lieu of money spent
23:09
through the federal government on arts and culture to a national campaign
23:14
to replace those budgets.
23:17
And I might think of it as something along the lines of a Citizens Alliance for
23:22
Arts Libraries and Museums.
23:26
CALM.
23:28
Yeah. I want to be really clear,
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this is not my favorite outcome.
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My favorite outcome is that the agencies are affirmed as pillars of a necessary
23:39
civil society. Hopefully that will be the outcome. If it's not,
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I think we have an opportunity.
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We have the opportunity to think about enhanced cause-based fundraising.
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For every dollar that we lose, perhaps in a relationship with the government,
23:53
go for a reverse match with individual donors who care about your cause and your
23:58
issues,
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especially if we're saying electively that we're not going to pursue federal
24:02
funding because the guidelines have changed and they are incompatible with our
24:07
values.
24:09
I think that there are plenty of ways to work with individual donors to think
24:13
about how we can replace that.
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I think that this is a time that really calls for pushing aggressively with what
24:19
we would call institutional marketing, telling a story about why our mission,
24:23
why our impact matters. I think we're going to need to be thinking about cross
24:28
sector relationships. In particular,
24:30
I think the Arts Impact Explorer that AFT has pulled together gives us really
24:34
beautiful ways to think about partnering with some of the other hard hit
24:37
sectors: Meals on Wheels or areas that receive Title 1 funding or environment or
24:42
education.
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We have a whole variety of frontiers now on which we can show our value and
24:48
really function as an elevated problem-solving partner.
24:51
I think there's a lot of possibility there where we can appeal not only to arts
24:55
funders,
24:55
but also to other funders who might see they can spend the same dollar twice
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funding an arts and culture nonprofit and helping to improve outcomes in the
25:04
environment or in education. Obviously this is not a new idea,
25:07
but I think that front is going to be increasingly vibrant for us over the
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course of the next five years.
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I think we can anticipate that our local arts agencies and our state arts
25:19
councils and our regional arts councils are going to become even more
25:23
essential in advocating for the role that arts and culture can play,
25:27
particularly within the Title 1 area,
25:30
and particularly as that money makes its way into state education agencies and
25:34
the local educational agencies truing up those relationships between our arts
25:39
advocates and state and local education agencies.
25:41
I think there's an opportunity for us there, but I think safe,
25:46
ethical AI is something we have to pay attention to.
25:50
We can increase our productivity by whopping amounts, 30%,
25:55
40%,
25:55
so we have the equivalent of an extra employee for every three employees using
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AI well. It's not 'wave a wand and it happens.' It has to be done carefully.
26:03
We have to make sure we function in a way that's humane and is respectful of the
26:07
work that artists could do and only artists could do,
26:09
but I think that there's a lot of gain that we can make over the course of the
26:12
next few years in this area. So Christopher,
26:17
if we start to break things down into what we need to do in order to defend
26:20
ourselves and defend our advocates and defend the pillars that we believe in,
26:26
and we think about maybe some of the openings,
26:29
maybe some of the openings that we didn't choose. We didn't choose this moment,
26:32
but it's here.
26:33
We're being acted upon and we need to think of more areas in which we
26:38
can react with action and not confuse statements
26:43
and essays and analysis for action.
26:46
That's not to say I don't think calling congresspeople is worthwhile.
26:49
We have to do it. Of course we do. We have to fight that fight.
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At the same time, are there steps that we can take to recreate or rethink?
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We are being rethought.
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I think it's time we have to rethink as well. And really the last thing I would
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say, Christopher, I hope that the next season,
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political season, let's call it the next three years, next three or four years,
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I hope that this will be an opportunity for our sector, arts, culture,
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humanities, literary,
27:18
and adjacent fields to work with a capacious
27:23
sense of grace and tolerance toward each other.
27:28
There is an extraordinary and I think quite beautiful spectrum
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of diversity of thought and diversity of background and
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diversity of hyperlocal circumstance in our country's arts
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and culture ecosystem. Urban, rural, affluent,
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historically underinvested, racial, economic,
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belief system. I mean, the diversity is enormous,
27:55
and there are major flashpoints coming up. Just this week,
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the Trump administration issued a call for 250 sculptures.
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They're offering what looks like $200,000 per commission to create
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a Garden of American Heroes.
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Artists are being called into action to create a Garden of American Heroes.
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There's a lot of money behind this.
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Certain artists are going to look at this and say, I can't abide that,
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and that's not something I'm going to do.
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Certain artists are going to look at that and say,
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I've lost a lot of other opportunities.
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I need to look at this in order to keep my practice going.
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And there's going to be a fault line there.
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There's going to be a fault line about who wants to continue to work in
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institutions like the Kennedy Center,
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who wants to go there and perform and who says, I can't abide it.
28:43
There's going to be a fault line around who continues to retain
28:48
the use of words like diversity, equity, and inclusion,
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and institutions that say, for one reason or another,
28:54
we need to find other language.
28:56
There's going to be a fault line around organizations that apply for NEA funding
28:59
and organizations who say, we don't align anymore.
29:03
There's going to be organizations that choose to participate in the semi
29:07
quincentennial -- Has everyone learned this word yet? I know it took me a while.
29:11
Semi quincentennial -- and organizations who say,
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I don't want to be part of that even though it pains me because I would love to
29:18
celebrate our nation,
29:19
but I'm not sure I can get with the way in which it's being done. These
29:23
fault lines are here. They're going to get more exacting.
29:27
And I think that we have an opportunity as a sector as much as
29:32
possible to be tolerant of different perspectives
29:37
and assume goodwill while holding rigorous discussion and debate,
29:42
while holding each other to account,
29:45
while showing a respectful listening posture.
29:49
Also really leaning in and trying to understand the truth that others
29:52
experience,
29:53
but remaining aware of the fact that if we stand any chance of
29:58
getting people outside of the sector,
30:00
especially those who feel like our work isn't for them, to pay attention to us,
30:04
we're going to have to be able to listen to each other first.
30:08
And I think that this next four years is going to present us with plenty of
30:12
opportunities to splinter and plenty of opportunities to step back
30:17
and breathe and recognize the humanity in each other. And even if we disagree,
30:22
to understand and assume goodwill, because I think in four years or five years,
30:27
if we start to see the change or maybe the return to
30:32
principles that I think most of us hold very dear,
30:35
the best chance that we have is with a sector that has embraced its own
30:39
diversity and has tried to keep as many doors to conversation open as
30:43
possible. And I think this is a strength of ours,
30:47
and if we can recommit to this over the course of the next four years,
30:51
we will stand a chance as a sector that is extremely diverse,
30:55
but unified in an essential sense.
30:56
And that doesn't mean unified in all ways of thinking,
30:59
and it doesn't mean not holding ourselves to account,
31:03
but it does mean operating with a sense of tolerance and goodwill toward each
31:08
other that we will be able to make a difference in the world beyond the sector
31:13
that I think many of us seek.
31:15
Well said. Brett, thank you so much for being here.
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Christopher, you guys are the best. Thanks for the work you do.
31:21
See you on the other side.
31:30
Hi, everyone. Dan here. So before we sign off,
31:33
let's do a quick round of CI-lebrity sightings where we celebrate CI clients
31:37
making headlines. First up, big news from Juilliard.
31:41
They're launching a $550 million fundraising campaign to make their programs
31:45
completely tuition free. According to the New York Times,
31:48
it's a bold step towards making a Juilliard education more accessible for future
31:52
artists. We love to see it. Over in Kentucky,
31:55
the Sentinel News highlighted the incredible reach of the Louisville Orchestra's
31:58
In Harmony tour:
32:00
free community concerts that have already brought music to more than 34,000
32:04
people across 43 counties.
32:07
What an inspiring way to share classical music far and wide.
32:11
And in California,
32:12
San Diego Theatres is getting ready to celebrate the Civic Theatre's 60th
32:15
anniversary with a major renovation.
32:17
Broadway World reported that upgrades will include a refreshed lobby,
32:21
modern restrooms, and new plaza amenities,
32:24
all aimed at creating a more welcoming, accessible experience for guests.
32:28
Cheers to that! Snaps to all these organizations for making the arts more open,
32:32
inviting, and inspiring. Got a story that deserves a shout out? Well,
32:36
tag us on social and let us know.
32:48
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
32:50
This episode was edited and produced by Karen McConarty and co-written by Karen
32:54
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
32:57
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CI to Eye's designers and video editors,
33:01
and all work together to create CI's digital content.
33:04
Our music is by whoisuzo. If you enjoyed today's episode,
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please take a moment to rate us or leave a review.
33:11
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33:40
Until next time, stay nerdy.