Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / 6 Ways to Lose Fat in 2025 (Using Science-Based Methods) | Ep 266

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6 Ways to Lose Fat in 2025 (Using Science-Based Methods) | Ep 266 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:01
  Philip Pape: If you're already dreading another year of frustrating fat loss attempts, wasting time with those popular diets that don't work for your lifestyle and genetics, or feeling overwhelmed by all the nutrition advice out there and not sure what actually works, this episode is for you.
• 0:17
  Philip Pape: Today, I'm breaking down six science-backed strategies for fat loss that you can implement this year, based on your unique situation, your experience, level, goals, lifestyle.
• 0:29
  Philip Pape: I'll show you how to choose the method that will work best for you and the exact steps to put it into action.
• 0:34
  Philip Pape: And the best part is you don't have to do anything extreme.
• 0:38
  Philip Pape: A 28-day challenge, start fasting or cut out food groups these are approaches that fit you like a glove, so you can stick with them long enough to lose fat without being miserable.
• 0:49
  Philip Pape: Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.
• 1:01
  Philip Pape: I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are kicking off 2025 by breaking down six proven strategies for fat loss that align with your individual needs, and that is the key differentiator.
• 1:15
  Philip Pape: The timing of this episode is intentional, because January is not just about New Year's resolutions.
• 1:22
  Philip Pape: It's about starting the year with the right tools and knowledge to make sustainable changes, whether you have a resolution or just want to follow the process and get the result, and that is what we're covering today.
• 1:33
  Philip Pape: Now, before we get into those strategies, I want to let you know that I've created a free guide called Precision Fat Loss that complements today's episode perfectly.
• 1:45
  Philip Pape: It gives you a targeted plan including all six core strategies that we're discussing.
• 1:50
  Philip Pape: It gives you detailed guidance on choosing the right one for you and the steps to implement your strategy properly.
• 1:56
  Philip Pape: You can get your free copy at witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in the show notes, and it's a great companion to follow along with this episode.
• 2:06
  Philip Pape: Now, my goal, as always, is to live up to what you're asking for as the listener or the viewer, so I wanted to share some recent five-star reviews that explain what we're about much better than I can, and I'm going to start with a review from RNK.
• 2:21
  Philip Pape: Great stuff.
• 2:22
  Philip Pape: Philip delivers interesting insights in a polished way.
• 2:25
  Philip Pape: I love the analytical approach to health.
• 2:27
  Philip Pape: He kept me engaged throughout the episode.
• 2:29
  Philip Pape: The next review is from Brad Kearns, who, by the way, is going to be on the show soon.
• 2:34
  Philip Pape: Really well-informed and interesting.
• 2:36
  Philip Pape: Philip does a fantastic job, covering the most interesting and important topics, including scientific research into easily understandable and actionable tips for healthy living and especially getting fit and strong for a lifetime.
• 2:48
  Philip Pape: And then we have LadyLifter07.
• 2:51
  Philip Pape: I love that.
• 2:51
  Philip Pape: Handle Best nutrition podcast.
• 2:54
  Philip Pape: Real advice for real people.
• 2:56
  Philip Pape: Always look forward to the next episode.
• 2:58
  Philip Pape: I should use that as my tagline going forward Real advice for real people.
• 3:03
  Philip Pape: All right, let's start by addressing why most fat loss approaches fail.
• 3:07
  Philip Pape: We've got to understand what the heck is going on in the world where so many people they lose weight and then they gain it back, and even when they lose weight, they lose muscle and they don't understand how to do this, despite tons and tons of information.
• 3:22
  Philip Pape: And there are three core issues that I see all the time, especially with clients, and this is why they tend to seek me out and reach out and say, hey, I need help with this.
• 3:29
  Philip Pape: The first core issue of the three is fat loss approaches usually treat everyone the same.
• 3:36
  Philip Pape: They completely ignore individual differences.
• 3:38
  Philip Pape: Now, I'm not talking about just general personalization.
• 3:41
  Philip Pape: I'm talking about the vastly different genetics and lifestyles and goals that people have.
• 3:49
  Philip Pape: And yet we lump fat loss all into one big giant category.
• 3:52
  Philip Pape: For example, you've got people with different metabolic rates, just genetically and also based on their history.
• 3:58
  Philip Pape: Some of you can eat 3,000 calories, maintain your weight.
• 4:00
  Philip Pape: Others maintain it 2,000 or far less.
• 4:02
  Philip Pape: That's the first issue.
• 4:03
  Philip Pape: Then there's the recovery ability, and this is important for fat loss.
• 4:08
  Philip Pape: When you're training five days a week, six days a week and you can't recover, that's going to add stress during fat loss, and you know some people need more rest, some people need more rest.
• 4:19
  Philip Pape: Your lifestyle demands and your stress levels play a huge role.
• 4:23
  Philip Pape: You know A busy executive with three kids is going to need a very different approach than someone with more flexibility in their schedule.
• 4:30
  Philip Pape: And then the training experience and the muscle mass you already have.
• 4:35
  Philip Pape: These are all factors that dramatically influence how your body responds to a calorie deficit.
• 4:41
  Philip Pape: So that's the first core issue.
• 4:43
  Philip Pape: The second core issue is that traditional approaches focus on short-term results.
• 4:49
  Philip Pape: You hear me talk about this a lot.
• 4:50
  Philip Pape: I think it's worth harping on the fact that 99% of diets out there are trying to get you a quick fix, whether it's the crash diets, whether it's the detoxes, whether it's programs like Weight Watchers or Optivea, whether it's the weight loss drugs and again, I'm not bashing on those drugs for people who need it.
• 5:08
  Philip Pape: I'm just saying the marketing of that is promising rapid weight loss, even if it's ostensibly for a health issue, you'll still see like such and such achieved, you know, 45 pounds of weight loss.
• 5:19
  Philip Pape: But what actually happens to the vast majority of people doing this when you're losing weight so quickly is, yeah, your hormones get completely out of whack.
• 5:27
  Philip Pape: We know that happens Metabolic adaptation.
• 5:29
  Philip Pape: I'll address that later.
• 5:30
  Philip Pape: But worse for most people is they're losing muscle.
• 5:33
  Philip Pape: They get ravenously hungry, they're cutting food so they want to binge on those foods again and they gain it all back.
• 5:38
  Philip Pape: We're talking 95% of people gain it back within five years and oftentimes because you have less muscle, you're now going to have more fat than you had before, even at the same weight, and a lot of you are gaining even more weight than that.
• 5:50
  Philip Pape: So the body fatness just keeps to creep up over the years.
• 5:54
  Philip Pape: There's zero consideration in these approaches for building the habits that take you through all the different phases of life and through training and not losing muscle, the importance of maintenance, the importance of building and losing fat.
• 6:09
  Philip Pape: It's all about the quick fix and that's the problem.
• 6:11
  Philip Pape: The third problem is the approaches don't account for real life.
• 6:16
  Philip Pape: A lot of them claim to be personalized, but by that they usually mean oh, we're going to take your gender and your genetics, or we're going to take your gender and your height and weight and a few other factors, and that's what we mean by personalization.
• 6:28
  Philip Pape: No, what I'm talking about is the very significant differences between how people live and who they live with, and where they live and what their job is, and so on.
• 6:41
  Philip Pape: And the existing approaches assume you're going to be this perfect dieting robot who never has social events.
• 6:47
  Philip Pape: You never travel, you never.
• 6:48
  Philip Pape: You know you have perfect stress levels.
• 6:50
  Philip Pape: You get eight hours of sleep every night.
• 6:51
  Philip Pape: Come on, like, when does that ever happen?
• 6:54
  Philip Pape: Ever, ever, ever, except maybe maybe a 20 year old or something with, like, no stress in their life.
• 6:59
  Philip Pape: No, your work stress fluctuates.
• 7:02
  Philip Pape: Your training intensity varies week to week.
• 7:03
  Philip Pape: You've got family obligations that pop up.
• 7:06
  Philip Pape: A sustainable approach has to account for all of that.
• 7:09
  Philip Pape: It can't be the other way around.
• 7:10
  Philip Pape: We can't say, well, you need to just get rid of all that.
• 7:14
  Philip Pape: Like, you're not working hard enough.
• 7:14
  Philip Pape: You need to double down and like, be disciplined.
• 7:17
  Philip Pape: No, no, come on, this is reality, so work with me here, all right.
• 7:28
  Philip Pape: So I want to now dig into the six evidence-based strategies that I've developed over the years with clients, and when I say I've developed, there's nothing new under the sun here.
• 7:32
  Philip Pape: I'm just going to be totally honest.
• 7:33
  Philip Pape: What I've done is taken, everything that I've worked with over the last three years myself, clients, this podcast and for 2025, I smushed it all together into a very simple, understandable set of six strategies, all right, and I'm going to split them into three and three and then talk about how to which ones to pick, based on you.
• 7:53
  Philip Pape: So let's build this piece by piece.
• 7:55
  Philip Pape: I'm going to start with a foundational approach and then go to the advanced methods.
• 7:58
  Philip Pape: Think of it like a pyramid, where you want to master the basics before moving to the complex stuff.
• 8:04
  Philip Pape: And, by the way, the Precision Fat Loss Guide if you download it, it will tell you with a check mark or an X whether each plan is good for you, based on all the different situations that you could be in, so you can immediately rule out things that I would not recommend for you right now.
• 8:21
  Philip Pape: So, strategy number one of the six here we go.
• 8:24
  Philip Pape: Here we go.
• 8:25
  Philip Pape: I don't know how long this episode is going to be.
• 8:26
  Philip Pape: I call it the slow burn.
• 8:28
  Philip Pape: You're targeting a loss of around a quarter to half percent of your body weight a week, which is quite reasonable and conservative, and you're doing it over anywhere from 12 to 20 or more weeks.
• 8:41
  Philip Pape: I mean you could conceivably do it forever.
• 8:44
  Philip Pape: I would never do a fat loss phase like that, but if you have like 300 pounds to lose, this could be the one that you want to go with, you know, in segments, over time.
• 8:54
  Philip Pape: Now I know it doesn't sound sexy, right, this is not a quick fix thing we're talking about.
• 8:58
  Philip Pape: This is about a half a pound a week for a 200 pound person, but here's why it's so powerful.
• 9:04
  Philip Pape: First, you are going to maintain almost all your muscle mass Like.
• 9:07
  Philip Pape: That solves that problem right off the bat.
• 9:09
  Philip Pape: When you're only dropping weight this slowly, your body has time to preserve that precious muscle tissue.
• 9:15
  Philip Pape: Compare this to crash dieting, whether it's done on purpose or because you're on a weight loss drug GLP-1, you know, semaglutide, terzapatide, et cetera where you might sacrifice a decent amount of muscle as much as five to 10 pounds of muscle just to see the scale move faster.
• 9:39
  Philip Pape: The second thing is this approach has the highest adherence rate.
• 9:41
  Philip Pape: Okay, I've seen this with client and it just makes mathematical sense.
• 9:43
  Philip Pape: Why?
• 9:43
  Philip Pape: Because you're not walking around starving all the time you can eat enough to fuel your workouts, to maintain your energy, to enjoy your food, and that's why I really like the slow burn.
• 9:54
  Philip Pape: For a lot of people, again, you got to get out of the quick fix mentality and think I want to get the result.
• 9:58
  Philip Pape: Yeah, but I actually want to keep the result and do it in a sustainable way.
• 10:01
  Philip Pape: And, speaking of sustainability, it's perfect for that.
• 10:10
  Philip Pape: This is the third reason I love it so much.
• 10:11
  Philip Pape: You've got enough mental bandwidth to focus on things like eating your protein, your meal prep, recovering from your workouts, your training, and you're not just white knuckling through hunger, right, you get the mental capacity to focus on the process and the habits.
• 10:22
  Philip Pape: And then, finally, there's a lot of room for social flexibility.
• 10:26
  Philip Pape: If you have a wedding, a holiday party, if you like to go out a lot, whatever it is, one higher calorie day isn't going to really do anything.
• 10:35
  Philip Pape: It's not going to derail anything.
• 10:36
  Philip Pape: It's going to be a blip because we're not talking about having a very aggressive deficit.
• 10:41
  Philip Pape: You're always not that far from maintenance anyway and you're just doing the slow burn.
• 10:45
  Philip Pape: So that's strategy number one.
• 10:47
  Philip Pape: Strategy number two this is the sweet spot and this is where you're targeting around a half to 1% of your body weight loss per week over about eight to 16 weeks.
• 11:01
  Philip Pape: All right, this is actually my go-to approach for many clients because it perfectly balances the results with the sustainability.
• 11:10
  Philip Pape: So it gets you there faster.
• 11:11
  Philip Pape: And again, I can't discount the fact we do want to get there in a reasonable amount of time, right, or else we get impatient or we get mentally fatigued.
• 11:19
  Philip Pape: So I understand speed is a factor, right, just not going too fast.
• 11:23
  Philip Pape: And then the faster we go, the shorter the duration we can handle.
• 11:28
  Philip Pape: So this is the sweet spot half to 1% loss per week over eight to 16 weeks.
• 11:33
  Philip Pape: And so when you're losing about a pound a week for someone weighing 200 pounds, do easy math.
• 11:39
  Philip Pape: You can see meaningful changes in the mirror while still having enough calories to maintain the quality of your training, and I think that's really important.
• 11:48
  Philip Pape: I think the quality and ability to perform in the gym is like half the equation when it comes to fat loss.
• 11:57
  Philip Pape: All right, you're not going to feel like you're dragging yourself through your workouts and the psychological impact is also moderate.
• 12:05
  Philip Pape: It's more than the slow burn, but it's still moderate Meaning.
• 12:07
  Philip Pape: Yeah, you're going to feel like you're dieting.
• 12:09
  Philip Pape: You're going to have a little bit of hunger, but it's not overwhelming.
• 12:12
  Philip Pape: You can still think clearly at work.
• 12:14
  Philip Pape: You can still engage people with people socially.
• 12:16
  Philip Pape: You can still maintain your relationships.
• 12:18
  Philip Pape: It's not some extreme like, say, a physique competitor would do, and I can't tell you how many clients appreciate this balance.
• 12:25
  Philip Pape: And, by the way, the reason I use this and not the slow burn with most clients is because they have my support there to know that they can fall and they can trip a little bit along the way, but I'm gonna keep them going, I'm gonna be there for them and they'll learn the skills that they need faster because they're working with me to get there.
• 12:42
  Philip Pape: But you can definitely do this part on your own if you've got the right plan and the right approach.
• 12:47
  Philip Pape: Now what's really nice about this is you have room for again some occasional higher calorie days, even if they're not planned in, even if they're not refeeds.
• 12:56
  Philip Pape: Maybe you're going out to dinner with friends, maybe you've got a birthday coming up.
• 12:59
  Philip Pape: You can just plan around the events for the week and not feel like you're really going way off, like oh my goodness, I'm just gonna wipe out my whole week's progress with this one thing.
• 13:09
  Philip Pape: No, you can shift things a little bit and you've got some still plenty of flexibility.
• 13:13
  Philip Pape: So that's the sweet spot.
• 13:15
  Philip Pape: So strategy number three Now this is rapid fat loss.
• 13:19
  Philip Pape: Okay, so you'll notice strategies one, two, three are really different buckets of speed.
• 13:24
  Philip Pape: And before we get to the advanced ones, this is rapid fat loss.
• 13:28
  Philip Pape: Now I have to be very clear here.
• 13:29
  Philip Pape: This is like a precision tool that should only be used in very specific situations.
• 13:36
  Philip Pape: We are talking about losing one to one and a half percent of your body weight over a very short timeframe two to eight weeks max.
• 13:45
  Philip Pape: And by eight weeks I mean like you really better have a lot of muscle mass and some decent weight to lose and be everything dialed in.
• 13:53
  Philip Pape: I would say it's more like four weeks is where I've seen this happen, and if you've ever heard me talk about rates of loss over 1% is where you're starting to risk a little bit of muscle loss.
• 14:04
  Philip Pape: That's why we keep the duration very short.
• 14:06
  Philip Pape: The main benefit here is you guessed it speed, speed.
• 14:12
  Philip Pape: So if you do have a specific deadline, like a photo shoot or a wedding or a competition or that thing on the beach, right, for me it might be my upcoming.
• 14:21
  Philip Pape: You know, we're going to Florida to Disney, we're going to visit my parents, we're going to go to the pool hey, I want to feel confident at the pool, that's all.
• 14:27
  Philip Pape: So maybe I'm going to fit in a little rapid fat loss phase in the six weeks leading up to that point.
• 14:33
  Philip Pape: This can definitely get you there, but you need to know exactly what you're doing with your training and nutrition Now, having this clear end point, like knowing it's going to end, and it's going to end pretty soon, that does help reduce mental fatigue because you know exactly when you'll be done right, and this isn't something you want to do indefinitely.
• 14:50
  Philip Pape: And if you come to me and say, hey, philip, I did your rapid fat loss phase and I want to keep going, what do I do?
• 14:55
  Philip Pape: I'm going to say don't keep going, that's ridiculous.
• 15:04
  Philip Pape: You're just going to start losing muscle mass, your hormones are going to go crazy, you're going to feel terrible and it's going to end up backfiring.
• 15:07
  Philip Pape: Just don't do it right, don't push it.
• 15:07
  Philip Pape: But if you want to, if you're in the middle of a year or two year long building phase and you're like, hey, I just want to shed some fat really quickly in six or eight weeks Again, not a quick fix, this is a controlled high protein, almost like a protein sparing, modified fast.
• 15:22
  Philip Pape: If you've heard of that.
• 15:22
  Philip Pape: It's very similar to that, but there's refeeds built in.
• 15:25
  Philip Pape: There's a strategy to this and I wasn't going to mention this, but I do have a specific guide called Rapid Fat Loss.
• 15:32
  Philip Pape: If you go to winstowheightscom, slash free, I'm not going to link it in the show notes, I'd rather you get the main precision fat loss guide and then you can like jump from there.
• 15:40
  Philip Pape: But the key here is that short and also you have strategic refeeds and this is usually one day a week after about four days.
• 15:50
  Philip Pape: So four days, very aggressive, and then one day of a refeed where you bump up your calories, mostly from carbs, right up to maintenance, and that's to.
• 15:59
  Philip Pape: It's really to kind of just give you the mental break.
• 16:02
  Philip Pape: It does help maintain some of your performance as well if timed appropriately, but it's mainly the mental break and the quick little jolt of recovery so you can keep going.
• 16:12
  Philip Pape: So those are the three, I'll say, foundational strategies for fat loss.
• 16:18
  Philip Pape: And now I want to get to the three advanced approaches, and what you're going to find is that these advanced approaches are more about timing and other variables and you could in a way, combine them with the first three.
• 16:32
  Philip Pape: Right, so you can.
• 16:33
  Philip Pape: I would start with one of the first three and then look at the last three to decide okay, do I need to really change the timing significantly based on my life?
• 16:43
  Philip Pape: And that's why you need the guide that I'm sharing, because it tells you later on, based on your situation, if this is appropriate.
• 16:48
  Philip Pape: Okay.
• 16:49
  Philip Pape: Strategy four, then, is called ride the wave.
• 16:52
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I've got some silly names here.
• 16:53
  Philip Pape: Okay, ride the wave.
• 16:56
  Philip Pape: And this is where things get interesting, because, instead of trying to hit the same calorie target every day which, again, I would recommend for most people to start out you are intentionally varying your intake throughout the week or month, and you've probably heard of carb cycling, calorie cycling.
• 17:09
  Philip Pape: A lot of these strategies are going to be related to that.
• 17:12
  Philip Pape: This approach is fantastic for people who have regular interruptions, regular social events.
• 17:17
  Philip Pape: Maybe you would always go out on Saturdays Great.
• 17:21
  Philip Pape: We plan to hire calories on those days and then we pull back a bit during the week, and the beauty of this strategy is how it reduces diet fatigue and even the fear that you're constantly failing.
• 17:35
  Philip Pape: Even if you're not failing, you know, there's the mental side of oh, I went over again.
• 17:39
  Philip Pape: I went over again.
• 17:40
  Philip Pape: You're not constantly grinding away every day at the same calories that might feel restrictive to you.
• 17:47
  Philip Pape: You've got those higher days to look forward to, right?
• 17:49
  Philip Pape: Not cheat days, but they're planned days where you up the carbs and they're planned in, and this makes the whole process itself again more sustainable for people who have these regular interruptions.
• 18:00
  Philip Pape: Now, one of my favorite applications is structuring this around training.
• 18:04
  Philip Pape: Right, we got to be careful, though this is where classic calorie cycling comes in, or carb cycling where, all right, you've got a big leg day, we're going to bump up our calories and carbs on those days.
• 18:14
  Philip Pape: On recovery days, we pull back a bit.
• 18:16
  Philip Pape: The caveat is for some people, this backfires because they need more days.
• 18:20
  Philip Pape: We pull back a bit.
• 18:20
  Philip Pape: The caveat is for some people, this backfires because they need more.
• 18:22
  Philip Pape: They need just as many calories on recovery days to feel like they're bringing it back from the fold as they head into the next training day.
• 18:28
  Philip Pape: And it also depends on your training schedule, what time of the day you train, and on and on right.
• 18:33
  Philip Pape: So, again, this is just an example, but ride the wave is essentially what it sounds like.
• 18:38
  Philip Pape: It's you riding the wave of your life, of your week, of your months, of your seasons.
• 18:43
  Philip Pape: Strategy number five All right, this is called alternating phases and I'll say that this takes the ride, the wave concept, to the next level in which you have a periodized on off.
• 18:57
  Philip Pape: That on-off can be any length, so you might do two weeks of aggressive dieting followed by two weeks of maintenance, and this is especially powerful for advanced lifters, for example, who really understand their bodies, or sometimes women, to line it up with their menstrual cycles, which again, don't just start there, because, for I would say, 90% of women, they don't need to do that, but there's a small subset who it could help.
• 19:24
  Philip Pape: It also might line up with your work schedule, your shift schedule.
• 19:29
  Philip Pape: You know, I have a client who's a I think they call it a magistrate because it's not in the US but she has like intense, like a few intense months where she can't get much sleep, and then a few intense, a few months of total time to do whatever she wants, almost Right.
• 19:46
  Philip Pape: And that's where you can line up the dieting across a month on, month off, two months on, two months off, very much like this stair step approach that I mentioned quite a few episodes ago.
• 19:57
  Philip Pape: You can go, look it up my stair step fat loss process of okay, I'm going to diet for a while and then I'm going to stop, and then I'm going to go on and then I'm going to stop, right.
• 20:06
  Philip Pape: It's just an overarching alternating phase approach and the mental relief during those maintenance phases can be massive.
• 20:14
  Philip Pape: It could be the exact thing you need just to hold steady, get recovered, eat more food, feel more energized, give your body a break from the stress of dieting.
• 20:22
  Philip Pape: Your hormones get a chance to recover if it's long enough during those phases.
• 20:26
  Philip Pape: Leptin, thyroid, testosterone they all drop during extended dieting and they come back fairly quickly, but not like in a day.
• 20:35
  Philip Pape: So when you alternate, say two weeks on two weeks off or a month on a month off, it can be an interesting way to manipulate that situation.
• 20:42
  Philip Pape: You are not, I repeat, you are not just artificially increasing your metabolism that is bogus BS, myth stuff but you are getting a massive break and things recover to the point where, physically and mentally, you're ready to go for the next phase, which means you're going to stick with it.
• 20:59
  Philip Pape: It's going to be sustainable.
• 21:00
  Philip Pape: Hugely helpful for that.
• 21:02
  Philip Pape: And then number six strategy.
• 21:04
  Philip Pape: Number six is what I call the recharge, recomp.
• 21:07
  Philip Pape: And again, I don't get any awards for these names.
• 21:11
  Philip Pape: I like alliteration, let's just put it that way Recharge, recomp.
• 21:15
  Philip Pape: So recomp, as in recomposition, where you build muscle and lose fat at the same time, this is technically not even a fat loss phase.
• 21:22
  Philip Pape: You are eating at maintenance while focusing on getting your act together with your training and with your recovery, and this works incredibly well between more focused fat loss phases or if you've got a high stress period.
• 21:39
  Philip Pape: So the reason I include this as its own strategy is to sort of give yourself the permission to drop this in when you need it.
• 21:48
  Philip Pape: Maybe you didn't plan out alternating phases, maybe you're doing the same calories every day for weeks on end and all of a sudden you're like something is not working, or I'm hitting a plateau, or I'm just not feeling it.
• 21:58
  Philip Pape: I don't want to be dieting, or this thing has come up in my life and I want to take the opportunity for the next month to focus on that.
• 22:04
  Philip Pape: Drop this in.
• 22:06
  Philip Pape: Think of it as a fat loss phase within your overall fat loss approach.
• 22:10
  Philip Pape: It's kind of a mental switch, a flip the script, if you will.
• 22:13
  Philip Pape: You're recharging and you're re-comping.
• 22:16
  Philip Pape: You're trying to still lose a little fat slowly and you might even gain some muscle where you weren't necessarily gaining during fat loss, but you're not ready to push it to a building phase yet or come out of your fat loss phase.
• 22:28
  Philip Pape: You still have more to go, so to speak.
• 22:30
  Philip Pape: So the recharge, re-comp this is its own special strategy that can fit wherever you want or need it.
• 22:36
  Philip Pape: So those are the six strategies and I believe, having gone through this and created this guide in today's episode, this covers the vast majority, if not all cases you could possibly think of, because you can combine these as well.
• 22:49
  Philip Pape: So the next thing I want to talk about is how your metabolism adapts during fat loss, because this is going to influence which strategy will work best for you, in addition to the other things that we'll get to later.
• 23:03
  Philip Pape: So I want to talk about the three types of metabolic adaptation that happen when you diet, because this is highly misunderstood.
• 23:10
  Philip Pape: So this is when your hormones start to downregulate Things like thyroid, testosterone, leptin.
• 23:18
  Philip Pape: They all decrease and this is your body's way of trying to conserve energy.
• 23:22
  Philip Pape: Some people have used the term starvation mode, and I don't like that so much, but I get where they're going.
• 23:27
  Philip Pape: It's your body clamping down.
• 23:29
  Philip Pape: It has a built-in preservation system that says, hey, food seems scarce, energy's not coming in, let's slow everything down, right?
• 23:37
  Philip Pape: That's one thing.
• 23:38
  Philip Pape: Then there's the reduction in your daily energy expenditure from the things you may not even notice.
• 23:44
  Philip Pape: You might not even notice that you're not fidgeting as much.
• 23:47
  Philip Pape: You're taking the elevator instead of the stairs, like you just get a little slower and sluggish and, unconsciously or not, decide to not move as often, or maybe you're going to park closer to the store.
• 23:57
  Philip Pape: But not only that your body gets more efficient with movement, which sounds great, but it actually means you're burning fewer calories doing the same activities.
• 24:05
  Philip Pape: So all of this comes into play.
• 24:07
  Philip Pape: And then the third type of adaptation is probably the most noticeable, and that is the increased hunger signaling that comes along for the ride.
• 24:15
  Philip Pape: And that is because your hunger hormones, like ghrelin they, go up, while the fullness signals leptin we talked about decrease.
• 24:22
  Philip Pape: And so it's not about willpower.
• 24:25
  Philip Pape: This is your body actively fighting against fat loss, and this is why it matters for choosing one of the strategies we talked about, because the more aggressive your approach, the faster these adaptations kick in.
• 24:38
  Philip Pape: And I didn't even talk about the adaptation that occurs because you just weigh less.
• 24:41
  Philip Pape: Right, by carrying around less body weight, you're going to burn fewer calories.
• 24:45
  Philip Pape: Yes, I don't think of that as a metabolic adaptation so much as just pure math based on body mass, right.
• 24:51
  Philip Pape: So if you go with something like rapid fat loss, let's say, all right, you might see these changes I just talked about.
• 24:58
  Philip Pape: These adaptations occur within days.
• 25:00
  Philip Pape: When we did our challenge for this, probably more than a year ago, I recruited some folks in the community and we all did it together.
• 25:07
  Philip Pape: I saw people's expenditures drop pretty quickly.
• 25:10
  Philip Pape: Now you couldn't tell in the data until days later, or even a few weeks later, because we use averages and trends, but you can tell in retrospect that it dropped a lot faster than it would normally.
• 25:21
  Philip Pape: With the slow burn approach, on the other hand, right strategy one, these are going to happen much more gradually, and then it gives you time to adjust to them.
• 25:30
  Philip Pape: This is where this personal metabolic resilience comes in.
• 25:35
  Philip Pape: I think this is something that a lot of people overlook.
• 25:37
  Philip Pape: This is your dieting history and your history of yo-yo dieting how often you've dieted in the past.
• 25:44
  Philip Pape: That history is going to play a huge role today.
• 25:46
  Philip Pape: I'm sorry to say it, if you've done a lot of crash dieting in the past, your metabolism might be a little more sensitive to calorie restriction, and we don't entirely always know why this is, and it's not necessarily a massive difference.
• 26:01
  Philip Pape: For a lot of people, it's just because you have less muscle mass, right, which means, on the other hand, if you spent good time at maintenance and building muscle and not dieting as much, you might be able to handle more aggressive approaches better.
• 26:13
  Philip Pape: But at the end of the day, this just comes down to the fact that you have a higher metabolic rate, and some of you are blessed with that.
• 26:19
  Philip Pape: Some of you are not.
• 26:20
  Philip Pape: The genetics make a difference, and on and on and on.
• 26:22
  Philip Pape: That's why personalizing these strategies are helpful, and when we come back after the break, I'm going to help you choose the best strategy for you and then implement it.
• 26:31
  Philip Pape: Plus, I'm going to reveal the surprising truth about adherence that changes how you think about good and bad days in your diet.
• 26:40
  Philip Pape: And then I'm going to reveal one thing that all successful people do to stick with their fat loss plan and actually get the result they want.
• 26:45
  Philip Pape: Stay with me.
• 26:47
  Max: Shout out to Philippe.
• 26:48
  Max: I know Philippe for a long time.
• 26:50
  Max: I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I chose him to be my coach.
• 26:56
  Max: I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably.
• 27:02
  Max: Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations, while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving.
• 27:11
  Max: In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet.
• 27:19
  Max: I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably.
• 27:23
  Max: If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, philly Pape is your guy.
• 27:31
  Philip Pape: Welcome back Now.
• 27:32
  Philip Pape: I'm going to walk you through exactly how to pick the right strategy based on where you're at right now.
• 27:37
  Philip Pape: If you are a beginner, stick with the slow burn or the sweet spot period.
• 27:43
  Philip Pape: I just simplified the whole thing for you.
• 27:45
  Philip Pape: Forget the rest.
• 27:46
  Philip Pape: Forget number three, four, five, six.
• 27:47
  Philip Pape: Pick number one or two.
• 27:49
  Philip Pape: You need to build those fundamental habits.
• 27:51
  Philip Pape: First, consistent protein intake, regular training, proper recovery.
• 27:56
  Philip Pape: It's like if you learn to drive, you wouldn't start on a Formula One racetrack.
• 28:02
  Philip Pape: Intermediate folks now, by intermediate that's a very flexible term, but to me that's someone who has some experience training and maybe some experience dieting, but not necessarily In that case you can use any approach, except rapid fat loss is what I'm going to say.
• 28:19
  Philip Pape: So approaches one, two, four, five, six.
• 28:21
  Philip Pape: Because you understand how your body responds to different calorie levels and training intensities.
• 28:26
  Philip Pape: You've got some experience reading your body's signals.
• 28:30
  Philip Pape: So again, even if you haven't, like expressly gone through these types of highly targeted track fat loss phases, you still probably have experience from dieting in general and kind of understanding how your body reacts.
• 28:44
  Philip Pape: But just make sure you truly feel like you have that experience.
• 28:47
  Philip Pape: Otherwise, if you're like this all is new to me consider yourself a beginner, even if you're a more experienced trainer.
• 28:54
  Philip Pape: So that's kind of what I mean is the experience with the dieting and the training together.
• 28:59
  Philip Pape: Now, if you're more advanced, if you've gone through bulks and cuts, you've trained for a while, you're an athlete, et cetera you can use any strategy, but you still have to match it to your goals, right?
• 29:10
  Philip Pape: So if you're prepping for a show, yeah, maybe rapid fat loss makes sense and maybe not, right?
• 29:15
  Philip Pape: I know I talk to a lot of bodybuilders and they actually want to take time to get there and cut over time.
• 29:20
  Philip Pape: Maybe you have some other event or date on the calendar where rapid fat loss makes sense.
• 29:24
  Philip Pape: If you're in a high stress period, maybe that's where you want to drop in one of these recharge, recomp periods and just say, look, I'm not going to give up on fat loss, but I know that it doesn't make sense for me to be in a calorie deficit right now, but I'm going to put it on hold and continue later.
• 29:39
  Philip Pape: But I'm going to still focus on doing all the right things keeping it sustainable, recharging and recovering my metabolism so I stop under eating and then maybe get some recomp as a side benefit.
• 29:51
  Philip Pape: So, other than that, there are multiple other scenarios in the guide itself.
• 29:58
  Philip Pape: I didn't want this podcast to be three hours long, but there are, I think, four tables for four different types of tendencies or things to think about.
• 30:10
  Philip Pape: There's a table on personal tendencies Do you love tracking, for example and so I want you to go through the guide yourself and just look at each one and say, okay, I'm that person.
• 30:18
  Philip Pape: Here are the things yes, yes, no, no.
• 30:21
  Philip Pape: That could work for me.
• 30:22
  Philip Pape: So what I really want to do today is get to how to implement this.
• 30:26
  Philip Pape: So, once you've picked the strategy, okay.
• 30:28
  Philip Pape: So I gave you the six strategies, I gave you some thoughts on personalization, but definitely get the guide to get all the details, and then now we're going to talk about implementing at a very high level.
• 30:40
  Philip Pape: All right, the first thing you have to do to implement a fat loss phase is you've got to know your numbers, and the best, the first number you have to know is your maintenance calories.
• 30:49
  Philip Pape: Your maintenance calories are the calories you burn every day.
• 30:52
  Philip Pape: The best approach is to track your food and your weight for at least two weeks and see how your weight responds to your food.
• 31:01
  Philip Pape: That is the only accurate way to do it.
• 31:04
  Philip Pape: First start, but they can be off by hundreds of calories.
• 31:19
  Philip Pape: I think I used to say 400 calories in either direction and I heard someone recently say a 700 calorie swing, so I think it's the same idea.
• 31:23
  Philip Pape: I don't know if they meant 700 either direction or just 700 total, like you could be up and down 350, but it's insanely inaccurate.
• 31:31
  Philip Pape: Your true maintenance calories are probably going to surprise you, because I've had clients who thought they maintained at 1800 and then we get them eating more and recovering and they're actually closer to 2500.
• 31:41
  Philip Pape: And I'll be honest, there's some that are the opposite.
• 31:44
  Philip Pape: They're like yeah, I should be burning 2000, but I'm not losing weight.
• 31:46
  Philip Pape: Well, it's because you actually burned 1600.
• 31:48
  Philip Pape: So the only way to do that is to track your food and weight.
• 31:52
  Philip Pape: And if you want an app that will do that for you so you don't have to pull out a complicated spreadsheet, download Macrofactor, use my code Wits and Weights.
• 32:01
  Philip Pape: All one word.
• 32:01
  Philip Pape: Yes, this is a plug, but it's a plug for my favorite app.
• 32:07
  Philip Pape: I use it, my clients use it, I talk about it all the time because it's the only app that calculates your maintenance calories accurately and that's what you need to get the targets.
• 32:15
  Philip Pape: Forget the other apps MyFitnessPal, chronometer and so on.
• 32:18
  Philip Pape: They don't do that, so all they are are glorified loggers.
• 32:21
  Philip Pape: They allow you to log food and then they're like tell us what your targets are.
• 32:24
  Philip Pape: I'm like I don't know what my target is.
• 32:26
  Philip Pape: Well, macrofactor gives you the target.
• 32:28
  Philip Pape: Every week you check in, it gives you a new target based on how your and your weight.
• 32:39
  Philip Pape: So you've got to start with that number, because that's the number you would eat to maintain your weight.
• 32:46
  Philip Pape: And if you're not even eating enough to maintain your weight, that's a whole separate process.
• 32:51
  Philip Pape: Okay, I talked about on the last episode, the last Monday episode, about the 12 month plan.
• 32:56
  Philip Pape: I talked about this recomp phase.
• 32:58
  Philip Pape: Not even talking about that.
• 32:59
  Philip Pape: Today I'm jumping right to the fat loss phase.
• 33:02
  Philip Pape: Once you've done all that setup, you've got your routine in place, and so on.
• 33:05
  Philip Pape: Okay, so if you don't even know all the things you need to do to set yourself up for success in fat loss, go listen to that episode.
• 33:12
  Philip Pape: See episode 260, oh, it was before the new, it was before the replays that came out.
• 33:19
  Philip Pape: Go look for it.
• 33:20
  Philip Pape: It says 12-month plan for your best physique in 2025, something like that.
• 33:25
  Philip Pape: I'll include a link in the show notes.
• 33:27
  Philip Pape: Once you have your maintenance calories, then what do you do next for macros?
• 33:30
  Philip Pape: Get this question all the time.
• 33:32
  Philip Pape: We're gonna set our protein next.
• 33:33
  Philip Pape: We're gonna aim for 0.7 to 1 gram per pound, and you can convert to kilograms if you want.
• 33:40
  Philip Pape: 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of your target body weight.
• 33:45
  Philip Pape: So if you're 220 pounds, you're trying to get to 180, you're trying to lose 40 pounds, doesn't matter.
• 33:50
  Philip Pape: Use 180 as your protein target max.
• 33:53
  Philip Pape: So 0.7 of that to 1 times that, right.
• 33:58
  Philip Pape: So what would 0.7 be?
• 33:59
  Philip Pape: It'd be something like 150 or something.
• 34:02
  Philip Pape: So you'd be around 150 to 180 grams of protein.
• 34:05
  Philip Pape: Okay, don't.
• 34:06
  Philip Pape: If it seems like too much, like way too much, bring it down toward that 0.7.
• 34:11
  Philip Pape: You don't have to go to the one and, by the way, there's no benefit to going beyond that, whether you're in a cut or not, other than the tiny situation of the rapid fat loss phase where you might need to crank it up just a little bit.
• 34:23
  Philip Pape: But even getting to that one is probably enough, even during that.
• 34:26
  Philip Pape: Now, so you've got your calories, you've got your maintenance calories, you've got your protein.
• 34:30
  Philip Pape: Now those maintenance calories are going to drop to the real target.
• 34:34
  Philip Pape: You need to lose fat, right, and that's going to be based on the strategy you picked from what we talked about earlier.
• 34:40
  Philip Pape: So let's say we're using the sweet spot at a half to 1% of your body weight a week, and so that's going to be about a 500 calorie daily deficit for a 200 pound person.
• 34:51
  Philip Pape: Again, we're not going to do all the math on the show here, but that's what it comes out to be and you can adjust it as you go, like if that's too aggressive, not aggressive enough, you can always adjust it as you go.
• 35:01
  Philip Pape: So once you have that deficit, now you've got your protein, the protein calories will be taking up some of those calories.
• 35:09
  Philip Pape: Then fats and carbs are very flexible, and that's all I'm going to say about fats and carbs.
• 35:14
  Philip Pape: Basically, if you set fats to around 30% of your calories and carbs the rest, that's a good starting point.
• 35:21
  Philip Pape: Some of you may want a lot less fat, some of you a lot more.
• 35:24
  Philip Pape: I definitely have heard that people on GLP-1 drugs, for example, like semaglutide and trisepatide, do better with lower fat.
• 35:31
  Philip Pape: Just something happens where they have to go to the bathroom or they eat too much fat.
• 35:36
  Philip Pape: So you personally may have different preferences and those preferences shouldn't be based on what someone said about keto or low carb or anything like that.
• 35:43
  Philip Pape: It should be based on how you respond to the fat and carb levels with your energy, with your performance, with your recovery, with your preferences.
• 35:52
  Philip Pape: All of that, all right.
• 35:53
  Philip Pape: And then you want to track all of this.
• 35:55
  Philip Pape: Now, again, if you get macro factor, you can track your food and get your targets based on your real results.
• 36:01
  Philip Pape: But you could use a notebook, you can use a spreadsheet A million ways to do this.
• 36:05
  Philip Pape: All right.
• 36:07
  Philip Pape: So we've got our calories, we've got our deficit, so it brings the calories down.
• 36:10
  Philip Pape: We anchored our protein and then filled in the rest with fats and carbs.
• 36:13
  Philip Pape: And then a much less concerned, but still has a little bit of importance, is your meal timing.
• 36:19
  Philip Pape: So people are like, okay, now, when do I eat?
• 36:21
  Philip Pape: What do I eat?
• 36:21
  Philip Pape: How do I do this?
• 36:22
  Philip Pape: My main recommendation here is to plan a decent amount of protein and carbs around your training, whether that's in the evening, whether that's in the morning.
• 36:32
  Philip Pape: So if you lift in the evening, you can have more calories later in the day.
• 36:34
  Philip Pape: If you're in the morning, you're going to have more in the morning.
• 36:37
  Philip Pape: Pre-workout, post-workout, and then just keep things balanced as the day goes on.
• 36:41
  Philip Pape: So keep the fats low pre-workout, but other than that, keep everything balanced.
• 36:46
  Philip Pape: Also, don't train fasted, don't go low carb before your workout, just have some protein and carbs before and after.
• 36:53
  Philip Pape: Other situations like low carb, keto, et cetera.
• 36:56
  Philip Pape: Yeah, you're going to have to make adjustments if you want to follow those protocols For the training itself, the goal here is to maintain your strength.
• 37:05
  Philip Pape: That is absolutely the goal.
• 37:06
  Philip Pape: To maintain your strength, to maintain your numbers.
• 37:08
  Philip Pape: If not, push your numbers higher where possible during fat loss.
• 37:12
  Philip Pape: A lot of people make the mistake of dropping their weight and going higher reps when cutting, thinking it's some sort of fat-burning, you know whatever.
• 37:21
  Philip Pape: A fat loss style workout, endurance, cardio, things like that no, keep pushing the heavy compounds, the heavy lifts, the typical types of training, to give yourself that signal, to preserve muscle.
• 37:33
  Philip Pape: And then you want to track things to let you know that you are making progress right, not just your scale, weight and your calories and your metabolism, but also the trend in all of those your progress photos, your training performance, your body measurements.
• 37:50
  Philip Pape: I like your waist, especially as a great indicator of fat loss for most people.
• 37:55
  Philip Pape: A great indicator of fat loss for most people.
• 37:58
  Philip Pape: Obviously, progress photos.
• 37:58
  Philip Pape: You're not going to see a lot of change from one week to the next, but if you take it every week, then four, five, six weeks apart you can start seeing changes and that validates that, hey, what I'm doing is actually working.
• 38:06
  Philip Pape: And then just the fact that you are adhering to this process and to those targets, that you are doing something every day For many of us, that is okay.
• 38:14
  Philip Pape: We're logging in macro factor every day.
• 38:15
  Philip Pape: We're putting our trend weight in every day.
• 38:17
  Philip Pape: We're logging our workouts every time we go.
• 38:20
  Philip Pape: I've had some calls with folks and I asked them how do you track your workouts?
• 38:23
  Philip Pape: They're like yeah, I don't really track them.
• 38:24
  Philip Pape: Okay, it's like calculus then and advanced math to be able to remember every PR from the 20 lifts you just did last week.
• 38:32
  Philip Pape: Impossible, not going to happen.
• 38:34
  Philip Pape: You got to track.
• 38:35
  Philip Pape: Now what most people miss is they get obsessed over the individual data points, and we don't want to do that.
• 38:43
  Philip Pape: We want to look at trends, not data points.
• 38:46
  Philip Pape: We want to have the data points when we look at trends.
• 38:48
  Philip Pape: One higher scale weight during fat loss means absolutely nothing.
• 38:52
  Philip Pape: For you to gain a pound of fat in one day means you would over consume by 3,500 calories.
• 38:59
  Philip Pape: Well, if you ate roughly the same you did every day before that in that week, and then you gain two pounds.
• 39:06
  Philip Pape: It's not fat, it's water weight, it's glycogen inflammation.
• 39:09
  Philip Pape: There's a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with fat.
• 39:11
  Philip Pape: It's probably going to come right back down, and so what matters is the averages over time.
• 39:16
  Philip Pape: All right, so here's something fascinating Most people don't realize about successful fat loss.
• 39:22
  Philip Pape: The most successful clients I've had are not the ones that follow the plan perfectly.
• 39:27
  Philip Pape: You're like what Don't you give them a plan and you give them accountability and support, check-ins, and that you're saying they don't follow the plan?
• 39:35
  Philip Pape: No, I'm saying they don't follow it perfectly.
• 39:36
  Philip Pape: They are the ones.
• 39:38
  Philip Pape: The successful ones are the ones who build in the strategic flexibility from the start.
• 39:42
  Philip Pape: I help them do that, I help them identify how to do that, but they understand right from day one that this is not a game of a perfect plan and perfect execution.
• 39:51
  Philip Pape: This is a game of real life, and so let's account for that right.
• 40:03
  Philip Pape: Think about this If you're doing the slow burn approach and you you're losing a half a percent per week, you can have an entire week where you maintain weight or even gain a little weight and still average out to your target over a month, right, and this, this changes how you think about progress.
• 40:14
  Philip Pape: It also takes enormous pressure off of you, right.
• 40:18
  Philip Pape: It reduces stress, it takes off pressure off a single day or even a single week.
• 40:22
  Philip Pape: And as far as being a coach, I can definitely help people process those thoughts, those emotions, those fears, to realize that that's the case, right, because we can't always see inside ourselves.
• 40:35
  Philip Pape: We get in our own heads.
• 40:36
  Philip Pape: And what's better than that?
• 40:38
  Philip Pape: Even than that, um, the way you think about progress is that your body can respond really well to the consistent variation you give it because it's in this low stress way.
• 40:50
  Philip Pape: In other words, you're planning it in.
• 40:51
  Philip Pape: You avoid extremes like even the ride, the wave and the alternate phase.
• 40:56
  Philip Pape: Approach, I'm not approach.
• 40:58
  Philip Pape: If I sat down with you and we mapped that out, I wouldn't have like a thousand calorie difference one day to the next.
• 41:03
  Philip Pape: It would still be within spitting distance, so that your body feels assured and safe, let's say, to lose fat.
• 41:10
  Philip Pape: But then it reduces the overall stress on you, which helps with your metabolism because you're planning it in and giving yourself the chance to succeed, and then your metabolism is maybe firing a little bit higher, burning a few more calories as a result, and then it makes the fat loss easier.
• 41:26
  Philip Pape: So the fact that you've built in sustainability, you've slowed yourself down, will probably help you speed up the whole process at the end.
• 41:34
  Philip Pape: Isn't that cool, all right.
• 41:36
  Philip Pape: As we wrap up, let me emphasize something really important, and that is fat loss does not have to be a miserable grind.
• 41:43
  Philip Pape: It doesn't okay.
• 41:45
  Philip Pape: There's going to be some hunger and some challenges.
• 41:47
  Philip Pape: Absolutely and too many people think suffering equals progress.
• 41:51
  Philip Pape: It's not true.
• 41:52
  Philip Pape: If you can choose a strategy aligned to your situation and then implement it properly with flexibility, you can achieve the results and live your life.
• 42:00
  Philip Pape: They are not mutually exclusive, and that's the way I love to do it, and that's why, once you do that a few times, you realize yeah, it's not so hard.
• 42:07
  Philip Pape: I actually got this, I have the confidence to do this and I don't have to do it too often throughout the year.
• 42:11
  Philip Pape: If you go back and listen to my 12 month episode, you'll understand that I want you to spend probably nine months out of the year not dieting, but when you do have to go after it, you're going to do it just like this, with precision.
• 42:24
  Philip Pape: All right, if you want to implement these strategies properly.
• 42:26
  Philip Pape: Download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide.
• 42:28
  Philip Pape: Again, it includes the detailed breakdowns of all six strategies, a decision matrix to help you choose the right one, and then some step-by-step implementation guidelines.
• 42:39
  Philip Pape: Use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free, where I have a ton of guides, by the way, but for this specific one it's called Precision Fat Loss Link is in the show notes, or go to witsandweightscom slash free.
• 42:51
  Philip Pape: All right, until next time.
• 42:53
  Philip Pape: I hope you guys love this one.
• 42:54
  Philip Pape: This was actually a fun one to put together and I hope it kind of maps out my overall thoughts on fat loss in general.
• 43:00
  Philip Pape: Until next time, I want you to keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember the best fat loss strategy isn't the one that works fastest, it's the one you can stick with long enough to actually work.
• 43:12
  Philip Pape: This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights and I will talk to you next time.