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ICE Raids, Queer Faith and Why Injustice Feels So Personal · You're Not Too Much

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Imagine being too scared to drive literally
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six minutes across the neighborhood that you've been in for 20
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years. They're trying to deport American citizens. Where do you deport a
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citizen to? Where do you deport somebody who was born
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here? Equity feels like oppression when you're the oppressor, bro. And
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so they made a police force out of them. All right, here
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we go. I'm going to pretend I'm pushing record, because that feels right. Okay, I'm
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pressing record. Boop. Hi, everybody.
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I'm Lauren Howard. Welcome to Different, Not
0:33
Broken, which is our podcast on exactly that. That there
0:36
are a lot of people in this world walking around feeling broken, and the reality
0:40
is you're just different, and that's fine. I have a rant to do, and I'm
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so fucking tired of having rants to do. Like, why do people
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keep lighting basic, like, human rights
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and dignities on fire so that I have rants to do. I don't want to
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have rants to do. I just want to, like, eat snacks and watch shows
0:58
about murder. And instead I have to go on the Internet
1:02
because I don't know what else to do with my hands. I was like, what
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the fuck else am I supposed to do? Like, my. She used to be my
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nanny. Now she's my assistant who I do not get through
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a day without. She is the functioning part of my brain. Day to day, she
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lives, like, maybe six minutes from us in a house in another
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neighborhood. But the neighborhood we live in is considered part of this
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larger neighborhood in Orlando, and it's gotten very, very large.
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It's basically become its own community, even though it's part of Orlando proper.
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She's been showing up to this house nearly every day
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for almost eight years, seven and a half years,
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because she started when my youngest was two months old,
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and she has not left us since. And that child is seven and a half
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now. So she's been showing up here every single day for that entire time.
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And every single day, like clockwork.
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I look out of my front window at 8:58, and
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her little egg car, she drives a little, like. We call
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it an egg. It's like a little Toyota Yaris, and it looks like an egg.
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We call it the huevo. And anyway, her little egg car parks right outside
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my window, and I'm like, okay, the day is starting because the functioning part
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of my brain has arrived. The ways she knows to harass me to get things
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done, the ways that she makes sure my children have what they need.
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The ways that she communicates with people without me asking to get things on my
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behalf. I cannot function without this human, like, on
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the other side of this door. I always think that I'm, like, in here with,
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like, all my privacy and stuff. And then I'll walk out and she will make
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it very clear that she heard everything I just said and parrot it back to
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me. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad that I have. Anyway, she's allowed to
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hear everything. She has access to all my emails. If it exists, she's seen it.
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So I don't need privacy from her, but I certainly don't have it. Anyway,
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one morning she texted me and she was like, I don't think I'm going to
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come in today. Which has never happened, except for,
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like, maybe one time where she had a cold. I don't think I'm coming in
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today. I was like, is everything okay?
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Because clearly some sky was falling in. I mean, this person
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lived with us, like, lived in my house for two years
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during the first two years of the pandemic, because it was the only way to,
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like, keep everybody safe and have her rather than having her.
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Like, her not showing up was a big deal. I wasn't upset about it, but
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it was a big deal. And so I was like, is everything okay? She was
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like, I mean, sort of. And I'm like, that doesn't sound right. But
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apparently ice was crawling all over our neighborhood and she
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was worried that if for some reason she got stopped that they would grab her.
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Here's the thing. Aside from the fact that nobody should be worried about that at
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all, should not be a concern, full stop. She's a
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citizen. She's been a citizen her whole life. Her dad's a
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citizen, she's a citizen. But
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she looks kind of brown. And her concern was not that
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they were going to incorrectly assess her citizenship, it was that they
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weren't going to give a fuck. Which is a valid concern, a very
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valid concern. And so she said,
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kind of sheepishly, honestly, but she said, do you mind if I just work from
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home today? And I was like, absolutely, of course. I don't care. But imagine
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being too scared to drive literally six minutes
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across the neighborhood that you've been in for 20 years,
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maybe more than that, because there's
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unnecessary federal agents everywhere, and they have
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made it their mission to terrorize people based on
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how they look and based on their lack of quote, unquote compliance.
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Compliance is a bullshit myth. It's not that I didn't understand
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what was going on, and it's not that it wasn't miserably
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troubling to me. The whole time I felt completely
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powerless. Like, what do you do in that situation? Obviously she is
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allowed to stay home if that's what she's concerned about. She can do whatever she
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wants. She can stay home as long as she needs. But why should somebody have
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to stay in their house? Somebody who is actually, I don't even care if you're
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here legally, why should somebody have to stay in their house because there's an
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unregulated fake army outside your door
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who are deployed here not for any reason other than to terrorize
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people. Why should that be a thing? Why should she be scared to go to
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work? And you know, as the resident
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Mayo Sapien of the group, I asked if she wanted me to come pick her
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up because I would very happily drive her here. And
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in my 6,000 pound SUV that goes broom very
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loudly. Because I've reached the point where I'm like, come at me,
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bro. I will protect the people. Oh, actually I will.
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It's not just the people in my universe. I will protect whomever because
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fuck these people. But that was actually before
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or the most recent thing where they shot
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a ICU nurse in cold blood. Who was rendering aid. He
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was rendering aid. They didn't even know he had a firearm with
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him. He was rendering aid. And then they tried to say
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after they murdered him and emptied an entire clip into him, that he
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brandished a firearm at him. Except we have video.
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We have video. They can't even lie
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about what happened because people know better than to let
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them breathe in front of them without video.
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On nearly every occasion that they have stepped out of bounds, there has been video
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proving that they are outright lying. And this was
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before that even happened. And again, your
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status doesn't matter in these situations because it doesn't matter
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to them. They're saying that they're trying to deal with
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immigration issues, but if they were trying to deal with immigration issues, there are
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10,000 ways to do that without hurting
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people like cattle and being completely non
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discriminatory on who you're grabbing. They don't care. They're trying to
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deport American citizens. Where do you deport a citizen to?
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Where do you deport somebody who was born here? It's not deporting
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if you're sending them to a place they're not from. That's kidnapping.
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But they don't care. They don't care. It's the threat,
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it's the attempt to silence. That's all that's all it's
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about. It's not about the rest of it. There is no rest of it. And
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the thing that keeps, like, just playing in my head on
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repeat that I can't shake is that there's
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this narrative. Well, if they had just complied. If they had just obeyed.
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Obeyed what? There was not a lawful order being made. There was
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nothing illegal being done. Complying with somebody just
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because they have a badge is not required
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when they're not doing anything within the boundaries of their position.
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You do not have to comply with the police just because they said so.
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You don't. But the bottom line is, let's say that person
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didn't comply. Let's say there was actually a lawful order made and
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that person didn't comply. You're not supposed to empty a magazine full
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of bullets into a guilty person either. It's not like there's a
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situation where this is acceptable. Not only was he
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lawfully carrying a firearm, but he hadn't taken it out of his
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pocket. The only thing he was brandishing
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were the requirements of him of being a licensed
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individual. Seeing someone in pain, seeing someone who
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needed help, he has an ethical obligation to intervene.
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You're not supposed to just let someone die. He was
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doing what he's supposed to do and they emptied a
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magazine into him for it. And I want to be clear, this is not
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the first time. And I don't love that there's so much public
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outrage now when this has happened. I think it's like nine previous
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times in the last month or something to people who weren't white.
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And the outrage is around these two white individuals. But
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the outrage needs to go far beyond that. First off, the outrage needs to be
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not in the fact that they're killing people, but that they are in the position
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to exist and supported by this administration to do the things
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they're doing anyway. Baselined. Even before somebody gets hurt,
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we have a big problem. But now people are getting hurt.
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And instead of it being about these people are in places where
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they shouldn't be doing things they shouldn't be doing.
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It's about, well, if you just listened, this would be fine. If you
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just did what we told you, we won't shoot you. It's like the
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governmentalization. I don't even know if that's a word of,
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if you stop making me so mad, I wouldn't hit you. If you have friends
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right now who are abuse survivors, what is happening in the government
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feels very familiar to them because that's what they're moving the Goalposts.
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Every time, every time it's somehow a new version of your fault.
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When you do what they said the last time, they will find a new way
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to encroach upon your freedoms because there's a new thing
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that you've done wrong again and again and again until you have no freedoms left,
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until you have no ability to take care of
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yourself, until you are not allowed to move freely in your community, until
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in the same way that you watch abuse victims lose all
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their access to money, lose all their access to friends and family, get their
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phones taken away, get all of these different ways that they could ask for help
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taken away. That's what they're doing. They're making it so
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it's silence or death. And if you're not
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silent, you're being non compliant. And if you're non compliant,
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we can kill you, or we can come into your house, or we can rip
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your children out of your arms, or we can try to deport you even though
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you live here legally. And the thing is, the courts aren't behind them. The courts
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are ruling against them over and over and over. And so instead of trying to
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do it through any legal means or any. Not that they were doing it legally
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before, but instead of trying to do it through the processes that
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do exist, because they keep getting shot down for trying to use
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those, they've just decided to go for full violence. Why not? It's a
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hard time to exist. And I don't want to make it sound like the field
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that I am in is harder to be in than any other, because I don't
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think that's true. Though it seems like kind of a fun time to be in
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federal law enforcement. If you're an untrained, fragile little man that does
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seem like they're having fun. They might be the only people having fun right
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now. But it is such a difficult
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time to be in mental health right now because, like, what the fuck
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are you supposed to say to people? Like, do we have a mental health crisis
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or do we have the world just falling apart around us and everything's
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terrible and I can't pay my bills crisis, there's no medication for that.
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There's no amount of therapy that's going to fix the actual world around you.
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And it's not to say we can't help. There are ways that we can help.
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Like, what do we do? How do we help people in any way that
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actually matters? There are some days where I just sit around and I'm like,
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I don't even know what to do with my hands, because I'm over here telling
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people that we want to help them. And the reality is I don't know how
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much we can actually do. I don't know how much we can actually do. No
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idea. And the reality is we can do something. There's always something that
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we can do as trained professionals. The
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therapists, the psychologists, the psychiatrist, et cetera, who I work with, they
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have arsenals of toolkits of ways that they can try to help
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you process these things, help you work through these things. Those things exist.
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And that's not to say don't rely on your mental health practitioners, but, man, it
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feels so futile to wake up every day
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and run a business or try to run a business that is
12:21
focused on making people's lives better or
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trying to make their lives more livable. And then the reality is, on the outside
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is this toxic hellscape that I don't like. I don't realistically know we can do
12:32
anything about. I mean, I know we can't do anything about it, not in that
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capacity, not from a mental health perspective. We can protest.
12:39
We can write our senators, we can write our congresspeople. We can be
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loudmouths on the Internet. We can help people find community. We can
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build other communities. We can try to find safe spaces. We can do all of
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that, and all of that is helpful, but all of that is stuff that we
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shouldn't have to do. We shouldn't be doing things to protect people against their
12:57
own government. And that's what we're doing right now. We're spending time and energy and
13:01
resources to try to protect people from their own government. Because one
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sad, scared little man with giant ankles and tiny
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hands was given the keys to the kingdom. His
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followers see no limit to the power that he's
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allowed to have. And so he surrounded himself by an army
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of sad, scared, little, fragile men who feel oppressed by the
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existence of other people who are allowed to exist. That's
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the nature of their oppression. These other people are allowed to exist, and
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therefore I am threatened by them, and it
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oppresses me. Equity feels like oppression when you're the oppressor, bro. And
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so they made a police force out of them. They made a police force out
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of them. You're not supposed to empty a magazine full of bullets
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into guilty people either. There's some
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dude bro on the Internet who said, you're oversimplifying. You're taking all
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of the nuance out of law enforcement and what it is to have those
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jobs and These are people who were giving orders, and they were just
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following orders. The people who enforced the Nazi agenda, you know what
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we called them? Nazis. These are
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grown people who are making choices. And signing an
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employment contract does not mean that you have a responsibility to stand
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by silent while one of your colleagues murders someone in front of you
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and then reinforce the lie that it was the fault of the person who died.
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If the reality is that these are people who
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got put in a bad situation by bad federal orders that they didn't realize were
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going to be their responsibility, then they shouldn't be following
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them. It's illegal to enforce an illegal order. You're still breaking
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the law. You can't cop out and say, well, I'm just doing my job. Yeah,
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so we're Nazi enforcers. And as the descendant of
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Holocaust survivors, that doesn't sit right with me. If you're
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scared, if you're overwhelmed, if you
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feel helpless, if you feel powerless,
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that's very reasonable, entirely
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reasonable. And that's the goal.
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The goal is to make you feel so powerless that there is
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nothing else that you can do but sit and let them do what
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they want. Now, that doesn't mean that today has to be the day you fight
15:16
back. It doesn't mean that you have to go get in a picket line for
15:18
a protest. It doesn't mean you have to figure out how to process through this.
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But you are not doing anything wrong. There is nothing wrong with you. If the
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things going on in this world are so fucking overwhelming
15:30
that you're finding yourself feeling completely inept at the things that
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you do every day, feeling underproductive, feeling like you can't catch up, feeling
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feeling completely burdened.
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There is this concept of allostatic load, which is
15:48
the things around you that put pressure on you. At
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the beginning of the pandemic, there were lots of people who weren't working,
15:56
who were furloughed, who didn't have a lot of
15:59
responsibilities, and they just reported feeling exhausted all the time. They weren't
16:03
doing anything. They weren't job searching. I don't say that critically. They
16:06
weren't doing anything because there wasn't anything to be done. They were watching tv, they
16:10
were baking sourdough. They were doing all of this, like, very minimal stuff
16:14
and would still crash out every day and want to nap all the time because
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that's all that they could do. And it's because the allostatic load, the just
16:21
amount of environmental pressure and worry
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and grief and things that are happening around you is so draining
16:29
that you Feel like you have been working 80 hour weeks when in
16:33
reality you've been staring at the TV. Because just the existence of
16:37
stress puts stress on the body. The allostatic load of this
16:40
situation is completely unmanageable. So if
16:44
instead of bouncing out of bed and going to the gym like you
16:48
normally do, you're exhausted and you don't feel like working,
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that's the reality of a hyper stressful situation. And if
16:56
you are having trouble finding the motivation because there's this thing
16:59
lingering in the universe and maybe it doesn't affect you personally, but it affects you
17:03
just by existing. You know, maybe you're not in Minnesota and you didn't know somebody
17:07
that's been harmed, but the idea of it happening is enough to hurt you.
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That's how these things work. That's realistic, that happens.
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So you have to give yourself time to process and grieve and figure
17:18
out what the next step is. And the next step might not be for a
17:20
little while because you need time that's realistic.
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You can figure out your plan of attack, whatever that is, without jumping on a
17:27
pick a line today, without jumping on a protest line today. Now, if you want
17:31
to do that, if that feels productive to you, if you want to be very
17:35
active about it, I support you in that too. There's local protests almost
17:39
everywhere. There's organizations that are putting together response
17:42
campaigns. You know, I've said this over and over. If we really
17:46
want to find out what these people are up to, we just need to organize
17:49
a group of like Gen X moms with a Google account
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and they will find every skeleton in the closet of every one
17:57
of these politicians who has facilitated this. And we will get them out of office
18:01
post haste. Because clearly there's something about every one of them
18:05
that they don't want somebody else to find out because they have
18:08
compromised all of their supposed ethics for
18:12
this. But if anybody wants to put together that army, I
18:16
will very happily facilitate because I am certain that a couple
18:19
of pissed off besties in a room with some margaritas will identify every
18:23
single thing that we need to get these human piles of
18:27
excrement out of office. But the reason you feel
18:30
terrorized is because this is terrorism.
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That's why you feel terrorized. And so there is nothing
18:38
wrong with you. If this is hard for me, you, there's
18:42
nothing wrong with you. There's lots wrong with what's happening in our federal
18:45
government. There's lots wrong with what's happening in
18:49
Minnesota, literally outside, in my neighborhood, lots wrong.
18:53
But your processing of it is not the problem. And you have to do
18:56
that however your brain and your body need to so that you
19:00
can. I don't even want to say get back to normal, because what the fuck
19:03
is normal? Like, how do you get back to normal
19:07
when we have a modern Gestapo invading our cities, but
19:10
so that you can get through it? And if you can find community and a
19:14
group who can support you when you need to be supported, that's going to be
19:17
the key to whatever the next step is. Maybe it's
19:21
being vocally outspoken, maybe it's going to
19:25
protests, maybe it's running for office. Fucking run for office. We need more
19:29
people like you. Please run for office. But whatever it is,
19:32
if getting there seems insurmountable, it's because
19:36
you feel terrorized, because you're being terrorized. That's the point.
19:40
That's their goal. That's what they want. And I'm sorry for that. And I'm sorry
19:43
you feel that way.
19:50
Hello, everyone. Thanks for hanging out with us today.
19:54
I have a very special guest with us. This is somebody who I
19:58
am very lucky that I get to work with almost every day, who I have
20:01
worked with for about the last year, is an incredible therapist who
20:05
brings the most lovely
20:09
depth of experience, both lived and
20:12
employment based, I guess is the best way to put it. Fantastic
20:15
intersection of all the things it makes her. Aside from the fact that she is
20:19
just like inherently an interesting person, it makes her just fantastically interesting.
20:22
So, so glad to have my lovely
20:26
friend Maya here. Maya, do you wanna say hi?
20:30
Hi. Hello, world. Tell us a little bit
20:33
about your background and what you do every day and
20:37
maybe some of the things that, you know, I find fascinating.
20:41
Originally from Oklahoma City, born and raised.
20:44
I used the word raised loosely. And then I
20:48
moved to Chicago when I was 26 by
20:51
myself via Craigslist. Yes, I would not suggest that today,
20:56
kiddos, but it was very rewarding. And I feel like
20:59
that's where I grew up and that's where I got to really figure out a
21:03
sense of myself without the background noise of politics
21:07
and family. I've always had an interest in psychology,
21:11
and I'll admit it was piqued by the movie Silence of the
21:15
Lambs. I watched it in high school. I was like, that's
21:18
fascinating. So I got my BA at DePaul
21:22
University in Chicago and I also got my Master in Education
21:27
there as well. It was in clinical mental health
21:30
counseling. And I've done that for about six
21:34
years. And I've learned so much from my
21:38
clients just as they've learned from me, which I think that needs to be
21:42
shared more often. My main focus has been
21:46
LGBTQ with the intersection of
21:49
BIPOC people. 1. That's my
21:52
intersectional identity. And I remember how
21:56
hard it was for me growing up with all of
22:00
that shame and fear of just being myself. And then
22:03
growing up in the Baptist church made it a lot harder.
22:07
I get a little tearful, but I have healed from it.
22:11
So it's just based on my experience of being told that
22:15
being homosexual back then is worse than
22:19
a child molester, a pedophile, a murderer.
22:23
I'm glad I took the time to really get to know myself. When I was
22:26
in Chicago, I never felt more seen and more uplifted and
22:30
loved. And that's also where I met my wife. And that's what
22:34
has motivated me to switch for religious trauma.
22:37
I had no idea how much of that is still going on in our world,
22:41
and now I bet it's even more heightened with. With the political
22:44
climate. I will try to keep the shade to a minimum,
22:48
but you don't have to. Okay, so Cheeto requirement,
22:52
basically, COVID variant
22:56
number 2 47, is a part of
23:00
that big religious conflict. Right. He's
23:04
had so many changes in identity, and unfortunately,
23:08
conservative, rigid, oppressive system
23:12
of religion is now having a louder voice than it was
23:16
before. What does your wife do for a living? And ironically,
23:19
she's a pastor,
23:23
so that's how we met. So
23:27
I was on the board of trustees at a church that she came
23:31
to after I joined it a year later. And the reason why, I'll
23:35
say I joined that church. And it's Holy Covenant in Chicago.
23:39
It's one of the most affirming churches I've ever been to. Before
23:43
that my relationship with God was just me and my own. And then
23:46
I went to a place where I could actually feel the love and
23:50
acceptance. So stayed. A year later, we had a
23:53
new pastor come in. I'll admit I Googled her
23:57
to see if I
24:01
can get to know a little bit about her before she started. And I was
24:05
impressed. And it's funny, she'll probably
24:08
kill me for sharing this, but when we first met, it was at
24:12
a trustees meeting. And I called, introduced
24:16
myself, try to be friendly. Her first words. Aren't you a
24:20
little young to be on the trustees committee? And I was like,
24:23
I'm gonna let that slide. But then.
24:28
We got to know each other, we built a friendship, and then
24:33
we fell in love. And I never thought
24:37
someone of her stature, especially in the church,
24:41
could love someone like me. It's not because I don't think I'm lovable. It's because
24:44
I'm a heathen. And I didn't know if that would go over well, but
24:48
it did and it still does. I'm honored to
24:52
be the type of pastor's wife. My own identity,
24:56
which we've had to deal with that in her new church here, they
25:00
expect me to bake cookies and be nice and take up all
25:04
their crap and internalize their
25:07
work and local work. They need to be done.
25:11
And I love that. I'm like, I have no other career.
25:14
I'll attend some services, I'll support my wife.
25:18
I'll say, I think my identity as a pastor's wife
25:22
is based on Medea and
25:26
Maya Angelou. So it's not typical. I say this as a. As a
25:30
relatively agnostic Jewish person. Right? Like, like
25:33
definitely Jewish. Believe in something, don't
25:37
spend a whole lot of time figuring out what it is. But
25:40
I also did not have a particularly
25:44
traumatic faith based upbringing. There was a period of my
25:48
life spent in an evangelical Christian cult, which is another story for another
25:52
day. I can't wait to talk about that. And did very much happen, right? Exactly.
25:55
But it is fascinating to me that despite all
25:59
of this kind of negativity toward who you are
26:02
that came out of your faith based upbringing,
26:06
that you found your way, you were open to
26:10
faith as an adult. Once you got out of that, was that a process
26:14
or did you have to, you know, was there healing
26:18
that had to be done or was it just finding the right place that made
26:21
you feel seen? And then the rest just kind of fell into place. I think
26:25
the healing was done in the process
26:28
of accepting that I can have a different
26:31
relationship with God versus what people kept telling me.
26:35
And I had to find that relationship outside of organized
26:39
religion for a while. And that's
26:43
one of the reasons why I started that group, is to help
26:46
people recognize faith. And religion can look any way
26:50
you need it to. I even tell my clients,
26:54
you know, you can believe in anything, but it's helpful to believe in
26:58
something as you navigate a very hard process of
27:01
healing through therapy. Kind of like myself. So I tell people, you can believe in
27:05
a rock, tree, leaf, dog, cat, whatever
27:09
you need, but we do need something outside
27:12
of ourselves to take on all of the stress and
27:16
shame and worry that we tend to keep
27:20
in. So even if it's believing in community, it's just
27:24
making that connection because there's a lot of
27:27
divisiveness, unfortunately. So when I
27:30
piloted my group, what Would queer Jesus do number
27:34
one? I knew I was pushing buttons. I've gotten to the age of life, I
27:37
don't give a shit, just going to call it out.
27:41
And I also did that too. So queer people knew
27:46
that there are options. And if you decide
27:50
to have faith, it can look any way, but you can
27:53
still build community. And I guess looking back is
27:57
based on the ideal of we are the world, we are children.
28:02
Knowing that this day and time, it's important to
28:05
be able to connect with people even if they seem different
28:09
from you. Because at the end of the day, as humans, we all
28:13
have something in common. It just takes time to
28:17
see it. And a lot of that is acceptance. One of the things
28:20
that I find people kind of verbalize to me as they
28:24
leave a very faith based upbringing. I'm not
28:28
advocating for anybody to go find faith. And I think if you
28:32
listen to what we just recently did, an episode with Libby Alders,
28:36
who is a. She's a chaplain. First off, I need to have you two on
28:39
an episode together and just let you do like BattleBots. Cause it's gonna be great
28:42
anyway. But she has a very similar
28:46
vibe to yours. And we talked a lot about what
28:50
it's like to find a faith tradition. And I'm not necessarily an advocate for
28:53
it, but I do think the thing that we don't verbalize enough when people are
28:57
processing through faith based trauma or religious
29:01
trauma is that there are a lot of bad things that can come out of
29:05
organized religion. And I am like the first to talk about those things.
29:09
But people don't realize that separating from that
29:13
often represents a lack of community. And if you don't find a way
29:17
to replace that community, that's often what you're grieving.
29:21
Exactly. And that's one of the really most important,
29:24
important goals of the group. So when I got to pilot,
29:28
I had, or we had five
29:32
people from different backgrounds, including
29:36
Catholicism, Methodists. And so
29:41
one thing I like to lift up to, I guess we want to get technical,
29:44
is social discernment theory. So that's a way to look
29:48
at scripture or those oppressive messages
29:52
to reclaim them and reframe them into something that's
29:56
meaningful and that brings about love and connection. So we're
29:59
back to the group. We brought up the topic of
30:03
abortion, which we all know is very controversial
30:07
regarding faith, political, whatever.
30:11
And there was someone who identified as
30:15
Catholic. And by the way, most of them were Catholic. Actually
30:19
they were all queer and bipoc. And this person
30:22
was very kind and said, you know, I accept that other People
30:26
feel differently, but I still connect to my Catholic faith
30:30
and believe in pro life. And I was
30:33
surprised that the other people in the cult actually
30:37
took the time to embrace that versus critique it.
30:41
And it ended up being a really good, deep
30:45
conversation. So that's kind of something I've always wanted to
30:49
do, again, is just bring some of those people that are different together.
30:53
And I mean, there's incredibly powerful messages there on
30:57
how, like, queer people are not a monolith. There is all kinds
31:00
of variation in their belief structures. And it's one of the reasons
31:04
why I love that we have so much focus on.
31:08
I think inclusion means a lot of things, and
31:12
a lot of people think finding inclusive spaces means you're going
31:16
to find a space that is completely outside of
31:20
the faith world, because faith worlds are not inclusive.
31:24
Right. And that's the reality for a lot of people, and I get
31:28
that. But it also represents this nucleus
31:31
of community for so many people that they lose.
31:35
And by finding a way back to it or finding something similar that does
31:39
something, you know, similar for them. I know we've seen
31:43
a huge amount of impact that that can have on people. And as you said,
31:47
it could be 75 different faith traditions in the same place, but
31:51
reinforcing that. Like, there's nothing in this book that says, you're
31:54
not welcome here. There are people who say you're not welcome here, but there is
31:58
nothing in the thing that actually drives our decision making that says you're not
32:02
welcome here. And that's really big focus
32:06
for Kelly because she probably did a queer Bible
32:09
study, which that was the first time I ever wanted to go to Bible study.
32:14
No shade. Because before it seemed like very fucking boring and
32:17
people just throwing scripture back and forth. And I was like, why?
32:22
But she did that and she let me help
32:26
her, like guided. And it was just
32:28
astonishing how a lot of
32:32
people in our society who are not part of
32:36
the. The privileged and the predominant
32:39
don't know if they have the power of choice or even to
32:43
challenge things. And so we brought up the
32:47
story of Sodom and Gomorrah and people were shocked
32:50
to hear that it's actually not about sin against
32:54
homosexuality. It's actually about something very, very
32:58
different. I mean, it was a messed up situation, but it's.
33:01
People use it as a weapon and it's really not true. So
33:05
we did a few more things like that and people were just like shocked,
33:09
Number one, that they could just take the space to reflect and
33:13
make it their own. Number two, there was still some fear of
33:16
like, Am I going to hell if I challenge this? And we had to help
33:20
them sit in the space of like. No. The thing that gets lost in
33:24
religion for me is the power of choice. Because
33:27
a lot of times people are told that if you lean
33:31
into choice, then you're going against God and you'll probably end
33:35
up doing Satan's work. Right? So not to trust
33:38
yourself. And so I like to uplift that, not only
33:42
in this group, but in therapy, too. I mean, I deal. I work with a
33:45
lot of people who are like, I thought I had to do this. I thought
33:47
I had to shrink myself. And it's not true. So,
33:51
quick story. Before. Before we're done. One of my favorite, favorite television
33:55
shows of all time is the West Wing. And there is an
33:58
episode in the second season of the West Wing called Two
34:02
Cathedrals. Yes, I
34:06
lied. It was a sin. I've committed many sins. Have I
34:09
displeased you, you feckless thug? 3.8 million
34:13
new jobs. That wasn't good. Bailed
34:17
out Mexico. Increased foreign trade. 30 million new
34:20
acres of land for conservation. Put Mendoza on the bench.
34:24
We're not fighting a war. I've raised three children.
34:28
That's not enough to buy me out of the doghouse. Hey, credo.
34:32
My deo pio. If you haven't seen the episode, go watch
34:35
it. It's in the second season. It's incredible. It's one of the best hours of
34:39
television that has ever happened. And I can quote the
34:43
speech almost verbatim, which is probably a mental illness
34:46
all on its own. But the thing that I love most about
34:50
that, because the. The president in this storyline is a very
34:54
devout Catholic who wanted to be priest when he
34:58
grew up and then just happened to meet his wife in college and decided not
35:01
to. And, like, this is a big deal for this character. But
35:05
the thing that I love the most about it is before they filmed the
35:09
scene, which they actually filmed in the National Cathedral. Oh, wow. They
35:12
pulled aside the priest who runs
35:16
all of it for. I don't know how that works. But the priest who runs
35:18
all of it and says, just so you know, he's gonna say
35:22
some really awful stuff about God and he's gonna do it in your
35:26
space. And we wanna make sure that you know that and you're okay with
35:30
it. And the priest was like, I know. And I'm so excited
35:33
because. Because he was like.
35:37
Because his take on it was like. You're supposed to argue. You're supposed
35:41
to have questions. You're. You're gonna
35:44
be angry. Your Things are gonna happen and you're not gonna understand it.
35:48
And so he. I guess the, like, the story, the lore, obviously I
35:52
wasn't there, is that this priest was like, standing in the
35:56
wings the whole time, just transfixed by this very real, very
35:59
human motion, watching the supposedly very powerful man take all
36:03
of his anger out on God. Because he was like, that's real. That's
36:06
realistic. You're not supposed to. So anyway, watch the episode. It's
36:10
amazing. But it's also very much the same idea that, you know
36:14
sometimes you're going to be mad because you don't have all the answers, and that
36:17
doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong. What you've mentioned is
36:21
something I also bring up in therapy with clients. Ask questions
36:25
and ask me questions during the consultation. I don't care.
36:29
That's your right. And if you don't want to work with me, you move on.
36:32
Just be free to ask your therapist any
36:35
questions. You need to make sure you feel safe and
36:39
aligned. And yes, when people get mad in session, I love it.
36:43
It's an emotion, and it's emotion that people are told that
36:47
they're not supposed to have. And I remind people, anger is
36:51
justified. It's like dbt. All emotions are valid. They just get
36:55
dysregulated from time to time. We don't need to go on that ramp. But anger,
36:58
for me, indicates the need that something needs to change.
37:02
There is righteous anger. It does come up for a reason.
37:06
That's such a good place to stop off at. Thank you so much
37:10
for spending time with us. It has been a delight to have you here. Shout
37:14
out to my neurodivergent peeps, I love you and hope
37:18
to work with more of you moving forward.
37:25
And now we'll go to Allison, who has this week's
37:28
small talk. All right, so we have a question. From Hannah
37:32
in Burlington, Vermont. I feel like I live in
37:36
my head more than my body. I forget to eat,
37:40
forget to drink water, forget that I'm tired until I'm
37:43
wrecked. Is that dissociation, burnout?
37:47
Just being bad at being human? Where do you even
37:51
start? With reconnecting? So, as a non clinician, I
37:54
cannot tell you if that's disassociation or not. You should definitely talk to
37:58
a mental health professional about that. But what I can say is
38:02
the world is a toxic hellscape, and it is very, very hard to
38:05
exist right now. And so if this is
38:09
something that is relatively new, if it is something that
38:13
just feels like exhaustion, there's a
38:17
lot to be exhausted by, and no one can fault you for that.
38:20
So you are probably doing the
38:24
most human thing, which is feeling your feelings,
38:28
even if you're not entirely sure what they are.
38:32
That said, one of the first signs of depression is
38:37
lack of interest in doing things and kind of lack of participation
38:40
in life. One of the earlier signs of depression, I should say so, like, maybe
38:44
there is somebody you should talk to just to make sure that.
38:48
Actually, like, I'm not even sure what to make sure of. Make sure that you
38:51
are just having a reasonable response to the toxic hellscape that is happening outside.
38:55
That doesn't seem better. But, like, maybe there is something that a mental health professional
38:59
can help with. Maybe you need some time with friends.
39:02
Maybe you need to develop some community around
39:06
you who can kind of give you some motivation to do those things. I'll be
39:09
honest. I'm the type. I have done this my whole life. I forget to eat
39:12
all the time. I forget to go pee all the time. I will be like,
39:16
oh, I have to go to the bathroom, and then find myself sitting at my
39:18
computer two hours later going, did I ever pee? Which, by the way, like, not
39:22
great for your kidneys. Don't do that. It's probably not great for your brain either
39:25
if your brain is just, like, has a hole in it that your
39:29
bodily functions just fall through. But I've done that my whole life, and
39:33
I still participate in life fairly consistently.
39:37
Not in any way that requires, like, socialization or shoes, but, you know,
39:41
still doing most of the things I need to do. But if it's, you know,
39:45
if it's bothering you, if it feels incorrect, if it feels.
39:48
If it feels like you're missing out on something that you need
39:52
access to, maybe it is time to talk to somebody. Or if
39:56
this is relatively new and sudden onset
39:59
and it is entirely reasonable to have that
40:03
reaction to the things that are happening around you in the world. Like, this shit's
40:06
heavy. And it's not the kind of heavy that you could just put down.
40:11
It's just heavy. Thanks for being here, guys. Have a good day. Love you,
40:15
Mina.
40:20
Because my husband walked into my office and took his
40:24
phone while I was sitting in front of my computer and just put it in
40:27
front of my face and was like, can we go get that? And I was
40:30
like, yeah. And that's how we ended up with a puppy.