Latest / El futuro fue ayer con Juan Guillermo Martín / El arte de la Orfebrería, una mirada desde la arqueología

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El arte de la Orfebrería, una mirada desde la arqueología · El futuro fue ayer con Juan Guillermo Martín

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The future was yesterday? It' s an archaeology podcast where ghosts, conspiracy
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theories and aliens have no place. I am Juan Guillermo Martín, archaeologist and
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university professor and with different specialists. It would be scientifically addressing our fascinating past,
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a past that offers us answers to face the future. Welcome to the
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podcast The future was yesterday? I' m Juan Guillermo Martín, archaeologist.
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Today we are going to talk about gold, gold, silver, copper and
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platinum, precious metals that have motivated conflicts, ritual wars and a lot of
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greed. These are various objects that characterize the archaeological contexts of some regions of
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America, generating, unfortunately, the looting and the guquería to talk about pre
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- Hispanic metallurgy. I have a wonderful guest. It is about clemency,
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places, clemency welcome, grace for those who do not know it, Clemencia
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plazas cs Anthropologist of the University of the Andes. She studied metallurgical techniques at
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MIT in Boston and is a PhD in Anthropology from the Center for Research and
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Teaching in Humanities of the State of Morelos in Mexico. He worked thirty-
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three years at the Gold Museum of the Banco de la República in Colombia.
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She was curator of her collections for seventeen years and its director for ten more
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years. She is the author of numerous books and articles on the hydraulic management
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of territory c and the pre- Hispanic metallurgy of North South America. With
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Ana María Falketti she has been professor of the national external universities and the School
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of Jewelry raw material of Bogotá, and good clemency to enter already in matter.
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It must be said that gold objects arouse fascination and interest in people.
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And even more, when you talk about archaeology, I don' t know
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if it' s happened to you, but when they know you' re
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an archaeologist, the first things they' re going to ask is about fossils,
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and there comes the first resolution, when disappointment, when you tell them
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no, that' s what paleontologists do. But then comes the next question,
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and that is to ask ourselves about the gold that we have possibly found
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in our archaeological excavations, and there probably comes the second solution. In the
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end, it is a material that has a very different meaning for Native American
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societies. But you have to start at the beginning when and where the metallurgy
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took place in America. Well, the first thing I wanted to tell you
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is that when I was on the ground, what I did was avoid,
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avoid getting to the gold, that is, if there weren' t a
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lot of funerary tumules and we never touched any, because at the time we
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were three women. I was the oldest, I was thirty. Charlie'
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s angels called us in the field, but where we found only the problem
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was serious, because what you say greed, then we always avoid it on
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the ground. But of course, what you talk about greed I wanted to
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tell you because just yesterday, looking at some chroniclers, I saw the difference
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between the vision of the indigenous of gold and the vision of the Spaniards.
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There is no quote that speaks of how very quickly the indigenous realized that greed.
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So what they were doing in the wars with them was throwing gold at
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them. And the Spaniards forgot everything and they threw themselves to take that gold
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and in the meantime they were killed. That is, it' s interesting
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that the indigenous people didn' t understand it. So, good to see
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the metallurgy. The metallurgy arises you. The earliest dates of metallurgy are in
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Europe, in the Anatolia area, the present- day Iran Iraq and has
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five thousand eight hundred before Christ, which is equivalent to almost eight thousand years
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before the present. Then it' s a very early date. The same
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happens, then, not so much, but Persia would be about six thousand
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before the present. What was Mesopotamia in India is also early, as in
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the five thousand before the present Egypt also five thousand before the present. There
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is not necessarily a technological diffusion. It seems that the metallurgy came to you
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independently in different places, because in fact it looks at America. The dates
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we have are four thousand before the present. For the Peruvian south and that
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is interesting because it is basically linked to metal sheets and hammered and embossed.
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The dates are going up more or less. The dates of Ecuador and Colombia
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would be two thousand four, two thousand before Christ, that is, four
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thousand forgive me four thousand is Peru. The south. In Colombia we would
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be talking about him and in Ecuador about a thousand before Christ, which would
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be about three thousand years before the present. And so we go up.
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In Panama and Costa Rica the dates are one hundred and forty Christ. Then
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we are talking about 2, 000 years ago and in Mexico, in Mesoamerica,
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the metallurgy arrives, but it develops more or less in the thousand two
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hundred of Christ, that is, it is less than a thousand years old
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in America. It is very clear the chronology in showing how it was developed,
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to put it in a way in the south, in Peru and then
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gradually became known in the north. There' s one very interesting thing.
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You know I just published a book about King Go, where the dates are
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early five hundred to Christ, that is, one five hundred two thousand before
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the present. Yeah, kind of good. But when those dates are for
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very developed and melted pieces, that is, they appear as if the foundry,
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which is a very complex specialization of the metallurgy, occurred in the north
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of our country and from there spread towards Central America and Mensoamerica, Then there
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could be as two foci of development of the metallurgy in America. But of
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course, you have to prove it, you have to keep working. Fortunately,
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some of the gold pieces have cores that have carbon and are left dated,
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and then that helps us a lot. That metallurgy procedure is extremely complex.
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Perhaps most people are not very clear, because melting requires high temperatures.
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We have to experiment with alloys. Innovating in manufacturing techniques, the search for
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and extraction of raw materials is also complicated. You could explain to us a
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little bit how this process is so complex. Well, you just mentioned that
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there are two very important metallurgical stages. The first would be the extraction of
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the ore, especially when we are talking about copper, which was very important
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for all the gold work. I mean, they fortunately learned very quickly that
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when you mixed copper with gold, you could lower two hundred, two hundred
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and fifty degrees the casting point. When you mix the copper with the gold,
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which is what is called tomaga, you get a lot lower the melting
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point. And really when you have four people blowing with clay torch to raise
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a temperature about a thousand degrees Celsius. It' s very complex. And
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if you add to that that you have to make a landfill in the case
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of the foundry, then it' s very complex. Then note that copper
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extraction involves a basic, i e primary, foundry. Which is not the
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foundry is that in Spanish we use the same term. In English, it
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is different to note that for them casting is the obtaining of the ore and
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the melting is the foundry on the lost sidewalk, but in Spanish we use
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the same term. It' s already confusing. Then the first stage is
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the achievement of metal. The gold. They didn' t make it good.
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There are only a few quotes that speak of gold mines in Dabaile,
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in the Anti- Oqueña area, but the amazing thing about those mines is
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that they seem to have come to the beta by making a hole, but
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instead of continuing the beta making holes and tunnels to continue the gold beta,
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what they were doing was wells from the surface to try to guess whether or
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not they arrived at the same time what they were doing, because very expensive
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at the level of work and basically ninety percent, if not more. I
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believe that ninety- eight percent of the Colombian gold was obtained by means of
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the batting of that of washing the sands of the rivers, especially in the
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central mountain range and western lamb of our country, which very rich in gold
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in the areas of the south west of Tumaco. And this is also platinum
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that comes mixed with gold. Silver also comes sometimes mixed with gold. And
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what they did was they didn' t remove it and that' s why
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the pieces have a small silver content. But here silver was not worked as
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it was worked in the South, in Peru and in Ecuador. The concrete
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work of silver was very important. I imagine that because of the wealth of
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the potosi mines all these mines say Peruvian and Bolivian silver, but not here.
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What did happen in Colombia is the work of platinum, which is an
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extraordinary thing, because platinum melts at a thousand eight hundred degrees Celsius. In
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other words, Europeans were able to work it at the end of the 18th
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century, that is, it is not easy to reach 1 800 degrees.
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This is what the Indians did, but I think it was a trial and
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error thing. It was that they mixed the gold with platinum and came to
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melt the gold, so that the gold surrounded liquid. Liquid gold surrounded platinum
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nuggets They never melted platinum, but through that technique called sintering, they achieved
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the hardness of platinum and platinum color. Then, that mixture of platinum nuggets
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with liquid gold hammered it and worked it and got that wealth of hardness.
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So impressive is that platinum is used at the tips of airplanes and in the
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most incredible places, because it is very, very hard and very important.
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So that' s the advantage it has and it' s a find.
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Let' s say American first- line the work of platinum clemency. There
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is one technique that people usually listen to, but little knows how it works.
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And it' s the one with the lost wax. And besides,
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it has a whole sequence that, in my view, is like a thalurgia
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poetry. You could explain to us how they got here. Of course,
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of course, because practically all of the pieces melted in Colombia were made with
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lost laceration. To see there is a foundry to lost lace quite simple,
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that would be the case of the muisque tunjos, where you have elaborated waxes.
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In the case muiscaylos used stone matrices to not have to repeat the wax
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models a thousand times, but simply applied this carved stone to the sidewalk and
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then you already had the negative and the positive of the piece. But then
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they would say in wax the fundamental form of the piece and then they would
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add the details also in wax what were the eyes, the limbs, the
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ornaments, and then that would cover it with a layer of clay with ground
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coal Sometimes and that they would put a funnel of input and channels from where
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the liquid metal flowed. They warmed up this whole situation and lost his wax
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there. That' s why it' s called the lost age. The
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wax was melted and lost inside the core and there was a void that was
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filled by the liquid metal. That sounds easy at those levels, but wait
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till we get to Quin Goa. I mean, in five, we'
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ve got these human popores that were the poo. It is the container where
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lime is used or, in this case, the human bones cremated for chewing
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coca leaves, but these poporos, because a little of these can weigh a
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kilo of gold, nine hundred grams of gold. I mean, we'
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re talking about monumental pieces that, in most cases, like the popore of
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the four balls that everyone knows, were melted into two successive foundries you look
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at. That beautiful bottle and the first thing you see, that filigree base
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so weak apparently holds this whole bottle, because that base was first melted with
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just the bottom of the bottle, with a fairly irregular line or limit,
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which helped the second foundry stick. But, well, that' s why
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they' re empty bottles inside, I mean, they' re hollow.
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It was necessary to have the core with many partitions linking the inner core with
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the outer mold and to keep the inner core in position once the sidewalk melted,
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because if there had not been those partitions, the nucleus immediately fell.
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Then these partitions held the inner core to allow the metal to flow. But
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to see that flow of metal, which seems so simple, is not at
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all simple, because remember melts at very high temperatures that metal. In the
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case who goes they liked what we call high lying, which is a beauty,
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because that reddish gold, which is not yellow gold, but which is
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very fine. Very much so. It would have little, relatively twenty or
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thirty percent copper, that is, it really has little copper, but enough
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to give the tone and surely important on a technical level, for the casting
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point. So, then, when you have a quantity as large as a
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kilo of liquid gold, losing that liquid so that it enters all the uncooled
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places before is extremely difficult. Right now, all the people who work are
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using trifugals to get metal everywhere. I mean, it' s a miracle
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those pieces. That' s why you admire them so much, because for
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contemporary jollers to see that work is an impressive achievement. That' s why
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we' re sure jewelers should be specialists. I mean, he wasn'
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t someone who just made jewelry while he had time off from the orchard,
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but he was specialists, probably close to the leaders and, of course,
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the pieces don' t stop amazing us. I believe that Colombia, in
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that sense, is the most important at the level of complex cast pieces that
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has complete America. I mean, it' s not about giving them,
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but it' s definitely the North of South America and, maybe later,
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a little bit later, about two thousand years ago, the lower Central America,
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the area where the specialization of metallurgy in pre- Hispanic America flourishes.
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What would be the explanations, in addition to the abundant gold that exists in
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this region so that this has happened to see, I must explain to you
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that I consider and increasingly believe it, that in Colombia we have two different
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metallurgical traditions. The first would be that of the south west, which is
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intimately linked to the Ecuadorian and Peruvian metallurgy, which has an emphasis on hammered
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and embossed and we would have there the areas called Calima. I play,
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because in the case Calima mala Gana, San Agustín Tumaco, obviously tuma with
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the tolite and maybe I will leave a little outside, but somehow Nariño also
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integrates. So this is an area that was very linked, as I say,
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to the south of the continent. And, on the other hand,
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we would have the northern zone of Colombia, which coincides with the Chiccha peoples,
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that is, we are talking about Locking Vaya, early Sinu of the
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Tairona, both Lonahuan, which is the initial Tairona phase and the second Tairona
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and Muisca stage that develop after the thousand of Christ until the thousand six hundred
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Uraba is also an important goldsmith zone. This strongly influences Central America and there,
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yes, we would have a development that I believe to be purely Colombian
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and very important. Sometimes I think that the early ceramics we had in the
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north of Colombia, that is, when we have in Puerta Hormiga and in
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that north of Colombia and the Canal del Dique ceramic pieces since the five thousand
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before Christ, that is, seven thousand before the present, should have influenced
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these developments. We' re talking about an experiment in ceramics that is very
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important for the molten. Why do you look at the direct work on the
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embossed metal. It' s a wonder, because it' s a dialogue
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between the metal and the person. Working Such is an impressive thing. Forgive
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me, I studied jewelry for three years to burn my fingers and understand a
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little how it feels so this dialogue is completely different from what happens with the
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foundry. Casting is another engineering problem, more of the mechanics of how things
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are built, than a dialogue of textures and shapes. So it' s
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like a completely different attitude to the same raw material that' s important to
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take into account. I think this foundry matches the CHIPCHS groups. As I
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tell you, it exists in Colombia earlier, but it goes to Costa Rica
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and Panama very importantly, always with molten objects, very interesting, but nothing
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as complex as qui ng va. That' s right, and in addition,
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what we see at the beginning is the distribution of objects, the distribution
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of these objects that move towards lower Central America. We even have data that
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they moved in the joints and after the objects enter, the knowledge comes,
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because we have to keep in mind that not only were objects exchanged, but
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ideas were also exchanged. And surely that tradition, already of consolidated metallurgy in
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the current Colombian territory, ended up reaching these areas, where basically Costa Rica
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and Panama, a goldsmith' s shop of very high quality, also developed.
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Notice that there is a concept that is sometimes so badly seen that it
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is snobbery. This is novism that you say ubie fulanito is a snob and
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I think that when you are an archaeologist you start to admire snobbery in the
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sense that if not because some leaders of human groups love exotic objects. If
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they acquire them, then this creates fashions. Another of the most important ideas
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for the dynamics of archaeology is fashion and then this makes people move. Already
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a very important fact about that and it is the fall of Tikal. When
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Tikal in Mesoamerica, in Guatemala, falls, the control and distribution of the
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jade that they had for many centuries falls and was very strict. There was
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but a fountain of jade, which is that of the river Motagua Hitical,
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controlled all the distribution, the mini wound of the ja of everything. And
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when it falls more or less, in the eight hundred of Christ there are
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about two centuries when nothing happens, but then it begins to enter in a
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way, for example, in Costa Rica, the South American metallurgy as an
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exotic object becomes. Yeah. There is no jae for like the leaders and
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people who want to give them to them for coffee with milk, but the
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South American metallurgy takes office. That is very interesting, because to become us
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it will be not lies, no, but certainly clear, without doubt that
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circulation of exotic goods that, in one way or another, the elite groups
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of others from other remote regions will use as an element of ostentation, prestige
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and social differentiation, because in one way or another, they will motivate the
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development of technology, innovation, the generation of styles, of tastes of aesthetic
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preferences that will be distributed throughout the Americas. Another thing I would like to
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discuss with you is the process of the European invasion of the American continent and
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the immediate desire and interest for gold and the spread of the legend of the
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Golden One. In the end, I think it' s Colombian territory that
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ends up holding that title. Why do you think Colombia is finally associated with
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El Dorado, which made it particular and unique this territory of the rest of
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the American continent. Now, I think there is a concept that needs to
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be made clear that it is very important to understand what is next, and
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that in Europe the metallurgy is at the service of war or of progress in
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quotation marks. In other words, wheels are made, weapons are made,
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shields are made, all the clothes of the Spaniards who protected it are made,
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while in America the metallurgy is at the service of communication and the worldview
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of the ideology of symbols. That is why silver and gold were so important
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in Peru, because silver is the moon and gold is the sun and the
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union of the two is say, the balance between the complementary opposites is all
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this symbolic idea, which has nothing to do with European metallurgy. That'
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s why, curiously, gold comes out of this European utilitarian metallurgy and that
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' s why the Spaniards sought it so much. I remember that we did
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a disponson at the Museum on the golden ones, that there were five gold
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ones in the imagination of the Spaniards. One of them was in Florida,
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another of them apparently were in the Amazon. But incredible because it was a
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search engine to seek to satisfy this greed. But I think that the idea
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stayed in Colombia and says something was concrete, it was personified in Colombia,
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because here, in the Muisca territory, they first found peaceful people and they
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were people, because notice that the conquest of the Muisca territory was one of
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the least bloody in the Colombian territory, and they could understand things like this
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ceremony from when a new cacique was going to take its place. Then in
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the lagoon of Guatavita, as in many lagoons of the high plateau, that
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is the lagoon deshecha, the lagoon of Fuquene, many are sacred sites.
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Why they are sacred sites, because they are the entrances to the womb of
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mother earth. When you think gold is the semen of the sun, you
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need a uterus to put it in. And so not only for abstract fertilization,
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but it was for the fertility of the land, of women for the
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future of communities. It was then essential to make such offerings. And we
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have him in the lagoon of Guatavita, north of Bogotá. The lagoon of
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Guatavita, first is rare, is a product of perhaps I don' t
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know. It' s said to be meteoric. The fact has been said
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is that it is very circular, it is small to be surrounded by hills
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and in that sense, when the chief was going to take possession, everyone
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was going around the lagoon to play photos. And this kind of thing is
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very well described by Juan de Castellanos. The ceremony and the character would get
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into a raft and go to the center of the lagoon, because we have
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the wonderful piece of the golden raft, which is incredible, because if you
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look at it carefully, none of the subjects who are sitting or snuggled like
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a pair of shamans. They look at the main character in the face,
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they reach the center of the lagoon and this character is tipped with turpentine or
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something oily on the body and then it is dusted with gold over the body
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and already golden, throws you into the lagoon to deposit that semen of the
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sun into the womb of the mother earth. It is a very showy ceremony,
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very felt by the indigenous people, and that made the new Granada known
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as in the Tierra del Dorado. Still notice that I remember. When I
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was at the Gold Museum to see in fact, the golden salon, last
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of the museum exhibition, I changed that golden tumule, which was a horrid
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gold cluster where tourists started to drool because it was like the gold that the
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Spaniards didn' t take. Here it is Take it. I took away
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all that gold, which was all that aroused was greed, and we did
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the golden ceremony with music, with dawn, because with all the description and
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was very successful. The Parrot Museum still has a new golden hall, but
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it is still talking about the golden ceremony. Yeah, and I think that
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' s important to emphasize, too. As you well say, when we
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do field work, we avoid finding gold things, because we know what it
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means in a field work, the complications that can bring from security the misunderstood
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ones that generate this whole situation. Then gold is completely avoided. But finally,
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these objects tell us about different aspects of the daily life of the inhabitants
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of this territory. In the past we can also address it, from archaeometry
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and reach a quantity of data related to its manufacture. You could tell us
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something about it that gold objects offer us. Finally, when they come from
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an archaeological context, because look, when they come from an archaeological context,
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they are wonderful. They don' t come too, I mean, what
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I want to tell you is that most of the collections are objects without context,
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that is, unfortunately run out of context and there' s no context
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or one. But what happened, for example, in the collection of the
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Gold Museum that allows her to work, is that the first director who actually
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made the collection, because up to the piece twenty thousand or something, he
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bought complete lots for complete lots. When you' re going to look it
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' s practically the sweep of a grave. They even gave him what was
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left of the tomb sweep in a bag. That wasn' t paid for
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or anything, and we used it for archeometry analysis. But when you are
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a researcher at that institution and it turns out that from the thirty- ninth
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year you bought kilts go, to say something attractive, then you bought lots
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in the forties and the fifties and the eighty- nines. For you can
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rescue the collection and find associations of pieces that form a coherent style. Sometimes
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there are pieces included that do not serve, then they are removed to reach
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as the hard core of the style. But when one achieves and in Colombia
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many researchers have worked different styles, get to the hard core, and that
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with archaeological data of ceramics and dates and evolutions, because we can learn a
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lot from societies, I believe, from how they interacted, from what was
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above all that ideological world and of the worldview and what you say. Today
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there are a number of possibilities, of analysis, of quantities of metal,
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for example, you could come to know from which mines or from which areas
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the gold that was worked in that part comes. In other words, there
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is a lot to be done, especially at the level of copper mines,
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very little work. We don' t have goldsmiths' workshops there' s
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hardly one excavated by a plain archaeologist in the south, but there' s
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practically no workshops. Some molds have been found, but I mean, you
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know they played archaeology a little scratching. But it' s so emotional.
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Anyway, I like my job so much, but it' s always much
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more what' s missing than what we know. No, I don'
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t. Normally, usually, after an investigation we solve some questions, but
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we generate twice as many concerns that require more research and that, of course,
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can be answered in many cases when there are well documented collections independently and
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well that there is clarification not only of archaeological contexts, but finally of another
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type of situation. But when they have information of origin and, as it
34:34
well says, they have been achieved in complete lots, since they allow us
34:39
to address other topics that are related precisely to manufacturing techniques, with the precision
34:45
of styles that change over time and that are in many cases fundamental to establishing,
34:51
for example, a chronology of an archaeological site. Yes, then leniency.
35:00
Now, to close this conversation, I' d like to ask you
35:07
what you think they' re going to do to the future lines of pre
35:13
- Hispanic metallurgy research. Which questions as more important, more relevant than,
35:16
given your experience, we should solve from archaeology. Oh, what things,
35:24
man, I' m almost 80 years old and you asked me things.
35:30
There are not years that lack for everything that I want to see, For
35:36
example, I come ahoritica from Mexico, very excited trying to try to try
35:42
as I said before, many researchers have worked the different styles, but I
35:49
would like to do as a work that includes all those efforts to see from
35:55
the stylistic point of view, how the pre- Hispanic goldsmithing works in Colombia.
36:00
That effort, as I say, is scattered, but it would be
36:05
chevere to have it. And the Ahoritica Gold Museum has a line of research
36:09
on the very important archaeometry side, which I think is going to bear very
36:15
good fruit in the long run and I think that, as always the relationship,
36:25
I went into the Museum when I was in the basement of the Bank
36:29
of the Republic and realized that that museum was like a jewelry store, I
36:34
mean, it wasn' t like showing the gold, the same thing that
36:40
greed perpetuated. However, with the arrival of Rachel Dolma tof at the museum
36:45
and other people, the Museum began to be filled with anthropology and being linked
36:52
to people. And I think that every time all the work that we did
36:58
and that is done now is that it is increasingly linking it to people,
37:06
including today' s people, so that the Museum and those objects do not
37:10
look like objects of others, but that they can us. It is that
37:16
it happens to me, especially arriving ahoritica from Mexico, that in Mexico the
37:22
common citizen has so deep- rooted his pre- Hispanic origin, which does
37:28
not happen in Colombia. I mean, it' s hard, and I
37:30
' d like it to be, and that' s why I' m
37:38
here with you I' m trying to attribute this knowledge to people who really
37:43
understand where it comes from. And in that sense, I believe that in
37:46
a globalized world, so globalized by networks and by everything, we do more
37:53
and better if we are rooted, that is, if we become what regional
38:00
to understand and love ourselves more simply that is the way it is that we
38:10
need to take ownership of our past, of our heritage, to understand that
38:17
we are the results of long social processes and that, finally, when we
38:22
send that to you, we will be able to project ourselves towards the future.
38:23
Clemence. Thank you so much for your time, for sharing your experience,
38:30
your knowledge of metallurgy, pre- Hispanic has been, as always,
38:34
a real pleasure. Thanks to you. I know nothing will continue to produce
38:40
scientific content in this podcast. The future Fayer Thank you very much.