Latest / New Worlder / Episode #80: Andrea Petrini

Transcript

Episode #80: Andrea Petrini · New Worlder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is the New Worlder podcast and I am one of your hosts, Nicholas Gill.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Today we are speaking with the great Andrea Petrini.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Andrea, or Andy as I know him, was born in Italy but has lived for many years in Lyon, France.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: He is a writer, author, and founder of Gelinas,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: an always-evolving culinary performance concept that aims to push the boundaries of culinary art.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was first exposed to Gelinas in, I guess, 2013.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was during one of the initial events in Lima, Peru.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was a 22-course, 8-hour dinner beside a pre-Columbian pyramid with some of the world's best-known chefs
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: where all of them made some variation of octopus and potatoes.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, that's 22 courses of octopus and potatoes.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was wild and debaucherous.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: To say the least.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote about the experience for the website Roads and Kingdoms and the story quickly went viral.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: After that, I had the opportunity on many occasions to get to know Andy.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was involved in various Gelinas performances during the Gelinas Shuffle
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: where I helped chefs like Ana Ross from Slovenia and Nico Romito from Italy
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: behind the scenes when they had to cook meals at the restaurants Borgo in Chile and Central in Peru.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was also a part of several other Gelinas events in New York and elsewhere in one form or another.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've had the opportunity to travel and dine with Andy on many occasions.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of years ago, I was even on a television show with the chef Victoria Blamey
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: that Andy was hosting in Emilia-Romagna for Discovery Italy.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I got to experience Andy's driving skills and live to tell about it.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's one of my all-time favorite people and I think he is wildly misunderstood.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's been on TV a lot of times.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure he's not a big fan of TV, but he's really into it.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: is pushing gastronomy to break free of its shackles.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: To take chefs out of their comfort zone and do something creative.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: To strive for art and love and soul.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't always work out that way, as you will hear him explain.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm grateful there is someone out there like him that, you know, just keeps pushing.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's needed more now than ever.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: For the past year, he's been working hard.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: has been working to help restaurants collaborate with different musicians to rethink the relationship
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: between food and music. Different events will be occurring throughout the year, so follow
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Jelena's on Instagram or Twitter or wherever to find out more. If you haven't signed up to the
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: New Worlder newsletter on Substack, please do. Just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: on Substack. It's full of essays, guides, travel tips, recipes, ecosystem reports, and news about
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: cuisine, mostly in the Americas. It's free to subscribe, though paid subscriptions give you
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: access to all of the content. Also, a huge thank you to Juliana Fersi, who became a founding member
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: of New Worlder on Substack. Juliana is the founder of the Fungi Foundation, which facilitates the
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: exploration, discovery, documentation, conservation, and development of new food.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: and preservation of the world's fungi. I met her years ago in Chile. I also interviewed her in one
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: of the first interviews for this podcast, so search around and listen to it. She's one of my heroes,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: who also just happens to be a good friend. So thank you, Juliana, for the support.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone, I hope you enjoy the show.
• 3:54
  Thank you.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I managed to stay put for all December and be in great shape for the Christmas season.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: But then it slipped out of control in January. I went to Italy, then I went to New York,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: then to Berlin for the Gelinas. In the meantime, I went, after that, I went to Spain for a story I
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: need to write for a French magazine on Paco Morales.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then in London with Alberto Landgraf. But now I'm back. I'm not going to move. I'll be very faithful to my computer until the beginning of March.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay. That's a good amount of time. So when you're at home, what's your daily routine? What do you have for breakfast?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Tea.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Just tea?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm home, I try not to eat and do what the...
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the intermittent fasting. So wake up. I take my probiotics for the intestinal flora.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then I go for at least a couple of teas, mostly Darjeeling. Then later on, I move on to double shots of black coffee.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay. Kombucha. Wow.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And in the afternoon, some green tea.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay. But lunch? Like, what's lunch?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Lunch, I have nothing today. Eventually lunch, some sheep yogurt, something very good and healthy.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Also, because I noticed that if I eat at lunch, first of all, I don't feel like working.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Then if I write about food and I'm full, I don't feel like working.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, I even noticed that, say, if I read a book, an essay or a novel, if I eat, I don't need to do a tasting menu.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if I've eaten, I have less pleasure, the pleasure of reading, the pleasure of thinking, the pleasure...
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I need to be... I'm like a monk.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like a monk. Yeah, I mean, kind of.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's...
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Your daily diet is almost like a side of when you're traveling and eating, you know, like tasting menus and things.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like a soccer mom or something, or like a yoga teacher in San Francisco.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine. I didn't expect that. I expected, I don't know, like, I don't know, some poached eggs somewhere or something.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know. Or some nice bread.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know what changed?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Being a new French guy, but originally Italian, I used to go to restaurants like a Spanish.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: For me, going to a restaurant night before nine, it was...
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: What the heck?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, going at seven o'clock to a restaurant, it was outrageous.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: But then, after a few times, you know, when you go to Scandinavian countries...
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you say, and you receive an email, your booking is confirmed for Friday at 5.15.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is going to be science fiction.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: But then, of course, if you go for dinner at 5.15, not even a sandwich at lunchtime, you sit down, you spend your usual couple of hours, or eventually even more.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: You get out, you say, what am I going to do?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Am I going to drink a cocktail?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: A cocktail?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to the movies.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I can be on time for the last show at the theater.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: It changes your life.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I can go back home and watch something or take a book and read for a couple of hours.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And now, I noticed that I really like to go to dine at 3.50.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: 3.30?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: For dinner?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 9:17
  Yeah.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the same way.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, starting a meal after 9, especially a long one, it's like it ruins your next day, almost.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're tired all morning.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: You have to go right to sleep when you get home, usually.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: But then you can't sleep because you ate so much.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: But if you go to dine, let's say at 4, at 4 p.m., I assume that you might have started your work day at 7.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have been working 5, 6, 7, 8 hours.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, me being a Catholic boy, I feel like I'm allowed to have some pleasure to say, let's call it a day and go out for dinner.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for me, going out for lunch at 12, 1 p.m., like the French, the Italians, the Germans do, it's not natural.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm supposed to work hard to earn the bread.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: To earn the bread of living through the sweating on my front, like the Bible says.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not allowed to go out in fancy places for lunch.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I understand it for some reason.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: The ultimate luxury.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I just don't get it.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm too Catholic, probably.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm curious.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: How do you drink your coffee?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: Black.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Black espresso.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Short, extra strong.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: But do you go to church ever?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, if I had to convert one day, I would like to become a Jew.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: A Jew?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Jew.
• 11:08
  Okay.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: When I look at my bookshelves, it's full of Hannah Hunter, Hannah Andrade, Andrade.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's less about the actual religion, the Jewish religion.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's more about influential writers that you like.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I feel like a complicated person, and I feel at ease with complicated persons.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Fair enough.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you do for a living?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: From what I understand, it's music paired with food.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we have been doing those things for years.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And every time the idea is to do something different,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: something which we have not done before.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if there is something that really strikes me more and more,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: is that we tend to go to restaurants, to chefs who are freak controls.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And when they open a restaurant, they think it's for years.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they want everything to be perfect.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: The food, of course, unfortunately, also the storytelling
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: that goes with it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now...
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Nowadays, but also the furniture, the lights, everything.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if there is one thing almost no one really cares
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: or really slightly takes in consideration, is music.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that the music, the loud music that you can have
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: whenever you enter an American restaurant,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: especially heavy metal, pump up the volume.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the music,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: the sound, the sound, the sound, the sound,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: is a score, something that could be made to measure,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: to fit within the overall philosophy of your restaurant.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: What, instead of playing your sous chef playlist during service,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: you ask a composer who might also be a client,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: a guest, someone that you know that is into food,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: if he writes or performs a score conceived for your restaurant.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: After all, 100 years ago,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Éric Satie, the French composer,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: said that music should mingle
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: with the noise of forks and spoons at a table.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think the last time I actually heard
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: interesting music at a restaurant.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: When?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, the only thing that comes up
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: that comes in my mind was at Kobe's place.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Not in the Wolf.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: In the Wolf.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Not in the Wolf, the other one.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that was before the pandemic.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: But that was the last time where I thought,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: okay, this music actually reflects the chef,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: reflects what he's cooking.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it was all just, you know,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: it was right.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was record collection that he was,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know, just putting on during the meal.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it was, it was great.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the music.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it felt, you know, it added something.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just like background noise.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was, it was good music.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was not background noise or not background music,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: what they call BGM.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: There is a few restaurants like the exception.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: You said Kobe.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I could say that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Flaming Chef,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: William Healy,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: who is in Ostende.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: He's in Denmark, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: In Belgium.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Belgium.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Up north.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's a, it's a, it's a playlist.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's calm, embracing,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: cold, slightly electronic,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: not too hyper, hyper immersive.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it fits rather well.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: also, a couple of weeks ago,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: when I went to Paco Morales in the south of Spain,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: he's totally influenced by the,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: he's totally rooted into the influences that the
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Arabic culture has brought to Spain.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And unsurprisingly, the playlist,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: which is done by some DJs,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: calm, soft, roundish and reflective.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not like,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: those kind of Arabic.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't just like,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: folkloric music or something like that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Not at all.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: That seems to,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: that seems to happen a lot,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've noticed.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like if the restaurant is,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: is trying to speak over like a surrounding region or something,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: and they play the like the very typical regional music,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: that doesn't quite reflect the food because they're not really cooking.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about fine dining restaurants that aren't really cooking the traditional food.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're influenced by it,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: but the music doesn't quite match.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we are still talking of nice, intelligent playlists.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Not talking yet of asking a musician,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: a composer, a performer to write a score or to improvise
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: or to conceive a sort of happening to mingle,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: to interact with the act of cooking,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: of eating and let the music be an extra layer,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: an extra layer of meaning,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: of interpretation of the whole situation.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm sure that there is a brand new,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not talking business.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like my cup of tea.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not good at that.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm sure that in,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: five years time,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: 10 years at the latest,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: there will be a huge market for those smart enough,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: that they will be able to do that.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: They are going to call sound designers
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: and apply their skills and work in a collaborative way
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: with sound wizards in order to implement
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: and enrich the experience of the restaurant going.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Also, what is worth noticing is that most of the time,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: the chefs,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: they don't get it.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Whether, if you ask any musician who has been traveling around,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: they said, hey, this is the year of the century.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot imagine how painful it is for us before or after the concerts
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: when we are touring around the world to spend miserable nights in places where the music
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: or the absence
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: or music or the absence or the lack of interest into the sound completely ruins or spoils our dinner.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the musicians get it fast, get it before easier, more easily than the chefs.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: They are not the avant garde anymore, the chefs.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: So two things, because it's about, you know,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: how chefs understand better through music,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: how the rhythm of their own work and restaurant and the logic of it through music, right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: As you say, chefs are not aware of this, don't work on that,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: don't reflect on how to understand what's happening in the restaurant to that rhythm.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: How do you expect what you want to show in Gelinas replicate outside the event?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like how that...
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: How do you expect that it's going to inspire chefs to maybe spend more time in collaborating with musicians?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, I was thinking about Brian Eno that actually composed a piece for airports.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was the same kind of...
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: The music is just awful and it should, you know, just reflect what's going on in an airport.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know from any airport that has used that music so far or maybe one.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was somewhere...
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, one somewhere.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, music for airports was released 45 years ago.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: After that, we had music for babies, music for hospitals, music for squares and music for sunsets.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: But there's never been, for Christ's sake, a music restaurant.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not the smartest kid around, but for Christ's sake, why hasn't anyone thought of it before?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: If I was a manager, if I was someone business oriented, I would imagine that I could use almost instrumentalized music to...
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: To add an extra speed or an extra level to my restaurant that the people might enjoy.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, more interesting to see...
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: For example, for this Gelina series, I just asked chefs...
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: If they know someone.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: In a few cases, I've tried to be like Nokia, the telephone.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I tried to connect people, chefs with a couple of musicians.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then they do their thing.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: It might be one night performance, a three nights performance.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: But then the idea is that if it works and if the communication is established, that keep going on.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And start a real collaboration.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: So how many of these Gelinas have happened so far?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: At Yoshiro Narizawa in December of 20...
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: 22?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: 22.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then in France, in the French Alps, at Guillaume Mongere, who did a thing with a pop folk composer, H. Burns.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: An incredible one in Biarritz at Matteo Roston.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: At the Taillard restaurant in Sion.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: He collaborated with David Chalman, who is a genius.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's a guy, 40 years old.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: He's living near Biarritz.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's a composer, he's a guitarist, he's a producer.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: He plays with a quartet called the Dreamhouse Quartet,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: which is composed of two sisters.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: The sisters Labeck playing piano.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And two guitars.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Him, David Chalman, and Bryce Dessner from the National.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he did a very...
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I expected something super interesting, but not that interesting.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: They just met together.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was a client of the restaurant.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: They met together.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: One day they decided to go totally improvisational.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: The chef not doing a menu.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: But doing...
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said...
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're playing around with the same products.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Raw, fermented, cooked, blah, blah, blah.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking about onions, anchovies, squid, that kind of stuff.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And him improvising on a vintage modular synthesizer.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: According to the atmosphere, according to what was going on.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: They also decided from scratch not to do it inside...
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Inside the restaurant.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But outside in an open field.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: The...
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: The thing was, let's do it like a Lamont & Young thing for five hours.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it started at 4 p.m.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: People were...
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: The guests were lying on like rocking chairs,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: the lounge chairs that you use when you go to the beach.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: They had headphones so they could stay concentrated
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: and listen to the music through the headphones.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: But they could also stand up and linger and do what they wanted.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea was to go against the usual tradition.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Having a dinner, is interacting together, is communicating.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: The idea was to isolate the diners
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: and have them go deep into this immersive field they were playing.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: They were listening to music.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wine was served.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Dishes were served.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And little by little, the atmosphere went from abstract to drone music.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Then...
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Explosions, soft explosions of wind, winding sounds.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Then through arpeggios.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then when the evenings became...
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: When the afternoon became...
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: When the evening became an early evening
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: and the fog fell down like in a John Carpenter's movie.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: The fog, little by little, became like a rave.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it ended up at 10 o'clock.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like...
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Time passed by like this.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you have pointed to something very interesting about fine dining
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: and how it became this formal protocol, stiff performance of...
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: Execution and perfection.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And chefs have become control freaks of that repetitive performance, right?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm wondering if, like, infusing that work with music
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: is like kind of loosening that mindset
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: and just like try to relax them and get into a different rhythm to see...
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's why chefs are scared.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's why chefs are scared.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I bet. I bet.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be in their day-by-day to...
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's therapy. It's therapy. Relax.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's not only about the...
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: So not only about the food and the protocol and everything.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah. Yeah, I hope that helps them.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think that's a great point about, you know,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: how these like tasting menus and these high expectations
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: about something that has to show everything in a single night.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a very important point.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: Because you know, we came in a way, terror, right?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: Of something beyond that, something that should happen just that night.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's, you know, that one and only night.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: And there are other elements that can help too.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, terror...
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: But also imagine you are a chef, not the head chef, not the owner, not the artist,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: but you are one of the chefs playing, cooking,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: night after night, the same menu, repeating the same gestures,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: the same plating, the same tweezering.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like...
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: What do you call it?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: The chain table in a force factory where they build cars.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: The belt chain, you know, the belt chain.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's the repetition again and again of the same gestures.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah. Right.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't improvise, you lose other skills.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: You only do one thing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you change the station, you go from fish to whatever, whatever.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's the same mold.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same argument.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's no way out.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: So what events are next?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Are there more coming up?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: There are more.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: There is one.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm waiting just today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm waiting for news from Kim Arthur in San Francisco.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: She's supposed to kick off on March 20.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Three days later, there will be a thing in Zurich
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: at the restaurant run by Markus Stöckl.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: It will be playing.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know yet what they are doing.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: It will be playing.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: It will be playing.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: who is between Berlin and Ibiza.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know that will be long.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know that will be improvisational.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: But last time we spoke a few weeks ago,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: they were thinking of staging the dinner, the thing,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: whatever we want to call it
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: not inside the restaurant
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's going to work
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: but their idea a few weeks ago
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: to stage it
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: inside an empty
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: swimming pool in the suburbs
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: of Zurich
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: which seems
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: interesting because also
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: of course you remember
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: that the second album by
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sigur Rós was recorded
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: inside the swimming pool
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: right
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: they also did the
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: the old fish
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: what was it
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: the old herring factory
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: do you remember that?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in that herring factory actually
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: and there will be others
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: in the round
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: with Gaston Klaus in the fall
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: in Italy
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: the Giulio Boys from Lucca
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: and it's going to happen
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: on the 7th of April
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: they will be playing
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: with a DJ
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: who's going to
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: compose a score
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: of different sounds
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: going through different decades
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: like the sound of the 70s
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: the 80s
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: the 90s
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: and so on and so on
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: and even the dishes
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: will be remixes
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: of
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: vintage
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: signature dishes
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: that's still working
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: on the concert
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: and hopefully in New York
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: because when I was in New York
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I went to see my old buddy
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: and I was like
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yugi Verna
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: who is a great jazz fan
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: and he's in love
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: with a fantastic musician
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Emanuel Wilkins
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: he's 26
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: they call him
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know the media
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: the new John Coltrane
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: he's fantastic
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: and so we had a meeting
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: the three of us
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: and when he's coming back
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: he's actually touring around the world
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: he was in Spain a couple of weeks ago
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: he was in London last week
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: when he's coming back to the States
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: after this world tour
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: to celebrate
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: the 75th anniversary
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: of Blue Note
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: the record label
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: they're gonna meet
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: and plot something
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: to happen in New York
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: or in Brooklyn
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: in May and June
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: okay
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: you talk
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: you have described yourself
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: as a Catholic boy
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: and that motivates me
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: to ask you something
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: if you
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: if you
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: if you want to
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: if you want to say
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know like
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: universe of food
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: happening
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: I see three branches
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: almost
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: it made me think about
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: the government
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: and you know
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: the judicial branch
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: the environmental ministry
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: the cultural ministry
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: you have three lines of work
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: that are big
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: right
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: one is this one
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: about fairness
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: judgment
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: with all the awards
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: why lists are important
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: or not
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: the
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: the war
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: restaurant
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: the awards
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: that I think now
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: it has stopped
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: but
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: that is about that
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: right judgment classification
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: what we will choose
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: we will
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: we need to classify or not
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: and why
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: and what are the criteria
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: right
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: then you have this ethical
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: line with
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: which is the European food summit
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: in Slovenia
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: which is all about awareness
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: responsibility
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: moral responsibility
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: what eating well means
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: right
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: and then you have
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: telling us
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: we have a lot of food
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: and you know performance
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: and expression
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: so I don't know
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: I see those three big lines
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: and I don't know if you see yourself like that
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: or it's just
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what you think about that
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: maybe
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: someone said
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: you are bipolar
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: or you are schizophrenic
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: and yes why not
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: but again
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: the world restaurants awards
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: which was
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: or might be again
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: something about the list and rankings etc
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: was not like saying
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: you are the number one
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: you are the number 37
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: and so on
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: it was about
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: prices for some criteria
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: and of course there was
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: the dish of the year
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: or the new opening of the year
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: but also
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: what I
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: what I remember
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: with the fondest memory
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: were that
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: between
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: among
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: the cities
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: there were
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: the most serious awards
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: new opening of the year
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: yeah
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: they were the funny ones
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: which for me were
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: as important
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: or even
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: more important
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: like
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: tattoo free
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: the tattoo free award
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: is amazing
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: tattoo free
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: yeah yeah
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: tattoo free chef of the year
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: or the
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: twitter free
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: kitchen
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: or the
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: the cheese cart
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: the cheese cart
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: the cheese cart
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: that was it was
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: the cheese cart
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: that's important
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: that's important
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: you don't
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: you don't eat in the restaurants anymore
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: so
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: and even
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: in Slovenia
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: it's about
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: the food
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: the environment
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: try to eat better
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: to help the community
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: the sustainability etc
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: but when I ask
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: people to come on stage
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's more to
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: to present
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: or to act
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: with
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: through a
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: through a sort of
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: cultural point of view
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: for example
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: for example
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: for example
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Alberto Landgraf
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: who came
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: a couple of years ago
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: the first
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: the only time
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I went to
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Otec
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was surprised
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: because it was
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: those days
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: just before the pandemic
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: the only restaurant
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: where they didn't
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: bother me
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: will
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: go down
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: the storytelling
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: they are not
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: coming to explain
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: where they picked up
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: how
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: The
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: the
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: of us, and he had one year and a half to prepare himself.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when he went on stage, he was fully prepared.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: He had written almost every book that Susan Sontag did.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he delivered a very scholarly speech,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: something that could be printed and released
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: with all the implications, the history of storytelling,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: the positioning of the subject.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was really astonishing.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: So…
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember this, but actually,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: before the pandemic, I was supposed to debate Alberto.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you were supposed to debate on Kenzaburo, eh?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, I was going to be for storytelling.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I suggested you to read all the mythological novels
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: by Kenzaburo, eh?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: You remember?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I read them.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: I read them, and then the pandemic happened, and it was like…
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: So now you're ready.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, next time I can talk.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to talk about the origins of Gelinas.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: How did it exactly…
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've probably talked to you about this before, but I don't know the true origins
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: of it.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: The true origins is very simple.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, Gelinas comes from Fulvio Piazza.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: His name, yeah.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: He was an Italian chef.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: It also comes from La Poule Geline, which is a rare breed of chicken that still survives
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: in Touraine, in the north of France.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a rather well-known chicken, a bit game-ish, with lots of personality, and almost
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: extinct.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: So Pierangeli, La Poule Geline.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, Gelinas, Piazza.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: participants, etc.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the story goes like this.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: In 2005, I was on holiday near San Vincenzo, actually in San Vincenzo, where Fulvio had
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: his restaurant, the Gambleroso.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I went once a week to the restaurant.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: But every day, we passed by.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: I had coffee, I had beer, and so on.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And one day, he said, they are breaking my balls.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: They are giving me balls.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because they want me to go to San Sebastian, to the festival, Gliomeotra Gastronomia.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And they have been willing to help me for years.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: And every time, I refuse, decline, etc.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I need a good excuse for not going again.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or...
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I had an idea to do something different.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And those were the days when Fulvio was absolutely, utterly convinced that everybody was stealing
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: his recipes.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, he never produced a recipe book.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: And never gave away the techniques of his recipes.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that night, I don't know why it happens.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I had a blank night.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't sleep.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And with the brains working overtime, I imagined I saw this picture of Fulvio on the stage doing
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: a recipe, while at the same time, other people were cooking the same recipe, but their own
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: way.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a composition.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, musical thing.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: An original song.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: An original pop song.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Where another band does the reprise.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or a cover of an old jazz standard.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or electronic music.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: A remix of someone else's music.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the following day, I went to Fulvio and said, hey, sit down.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Stay calm.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Don't shout.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Blah, blah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're going to hate it.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you think if, because on stage, blah, blah, you are there, other people, that means that it's not one truth.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: But multiple truths.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is the end of the copyright.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he thought about it, like for almost one minute, and said, ah, why not?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: So in November 2005, in San Sebastian, they announced Fulvio Pirangeli.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: But instead of having Fulvio Pirangeli on stage, I walked on stage saying, hey, I'm Andre.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not Fulvio.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Fulvio is not on the stage.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because he doesn't believe the stage is the place a chef should be.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Fulvio is in the kitchen with a few friends.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he was in the kitchen with Andoni, with Massimo Bottura, with Peter Nilsson.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so they did this very chaotic and fluxus-oriented performance where he presented his famous scallops stuffed with fennel and mortadella.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, Massimo Bottura was there.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And Massimo Bottura, Nilsson, and Andoni did their thing.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so strange and also very musical.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like a remixing of a matrix, a remixing of other people's ideas.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: So while they were cooking, I used a song by Luigi Sacamoto and David Silvian that had been remixed by other people four times.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I used a song by Luigi Sacamoto and David Silvian that had been remixed by other people four times.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the music was there since the beginning.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then we did it again with David Scabin, and with David we did the first dinner.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the first one in San Sebastian, it was just a performance on stage.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: But then we tried what does happen if you sit down at the table and you eat eight times the same dish.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Eight versions of the same dish.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Eight versions of the same dish.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: in Ghent, in Belgium, in Lima, Peru. And then the idea of the remix of appropriating someone else's
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: ideas and reshape it, remix it, remodel it, is part of the DNA of Gelinas.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think, 2005, what was going on in the world of cuisine?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: The congresses were the next big thing.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: The congresses, right? So chef's stardom was really starting and really kind of being
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: in the idea of the chef was turning into something very serious.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: The author. That's where the notion of cuisine d'auteur, author's cuisine started.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right. But at the same time, it was being very formalized.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you think? Right.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it is still very formalized. Of course.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Of that, they keep repeating the same model, the same idiom that was created.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was created even before La Mejora Gastronomía, Rafael Garcia Santos, the leader maximum of the
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Spanish cuisine, had started doing a festival in Victoria before San Sebastian. And that was in
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: 1998 and 1999. Right.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: So 27 years later, something like that, we are still repeating the same formula.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe it.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Those people are paid. The people who organize these things are paid by their brands, by whoever.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, you should tell people to come up with new ideas to improve what's already been done and
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: not to repeat the same formula over and over again.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it was, I don't know, it's just this, it was like, that was the start of when it was becoming
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: so serious. And it's still so serious, the role of the chef.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: With one exception. Nobody's taking it seriously anymore. Even chefs, they go on stage,
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: they do their thing, and they sneak away. In the old days, there was the excitement of,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,ёмitting colleagues, Une by HQ, a guest, they started because the
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: people are from your city, from your hometown, just came from Europe, from Palestine, from
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: see be aversa African people.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how we do that and they're actually going to kind of go...
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: where there are rooms, I had
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: VineCómo I already had like an SME entity, they were able to take over, you know,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: hold the organization but it's not the same exact thing.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that it's not ran as clean, yeah, the psychiatrists they have been doing, but to do so как
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: a non разрешитель level and have said, Hey, maybe I'm going to do this for a while, how about
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: that? I'm trying to leveling in and have to support people. I'm trying to make this better.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: notch profile. But what do they get out of it now? They get now probably just to please the
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: organizers and to have their names in a couple of magazines almost for free. That's it. I remember
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: 25 years that Perrin Adrien said from the stage of La Mignola Gastronomia, hey, here I am with you,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: because they invited me. But I don't think that a chef should come every year on stage. You should
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: come and you should participate to a congress only if you have something new that you want to
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: share with your guests. And that's it. And that's it. And that's it. And that's it. And that's it.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we are also nevertheless talk...
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: progress of breaking the rules, of going forward with new techniques. So Ferran, every year went
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: to the third salary week, every day, a new idea to share with the public. But, I mean, going on,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: attending the stage of the congress should cap choreography of the Interangle of Cbournes.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: shouldn't be something that is granted for life.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I've basically stopped going to any kind of congresses and things
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: because they just became the same chefs telling the same story,
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: really not sharing anything new,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: just sharing basically an advertisement for their restaurant.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't get anything from it anymore,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: and I don't think they got anything from sharing their story,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: and it just seemed like I don't think there was anyone even in the audience
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: that was benefiting from any of it.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just the famous Andy Wallace of 15 minutes of fame.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not going to congresses anymore.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're abstaining yourself.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for the most part.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm trying to think the last one I went to.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: May I say something?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot prove it.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a quality proof,
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: but I can.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed here and there in different crowds in Europe,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: in America for different reasons.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe the next trend when it comes to restaurants
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: will be a sort of resistance of people abstaining to go to restaurants.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why that?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because they are most of the time more of the same
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: because they are difficult.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: So to get in because they're they've become all of them,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: all of them incredibly expensive.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because there is nothing really new coming up.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: And also because and it's also probably our fault to as food critics,
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: journalists, whatever we gave the audience the reader.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: So the impression, the fake impression that the reason every week,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: if you write the weekend column in the New York Times,
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: if you write the weekly lifestyle restaurant page in Le Monde in France or in the Guardian,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: we gave the readers the fake wrong false impression that there is something new,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: something worth going every week.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: I get how many movies get a theatrical release dozens 15 per week.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: How many movies do you get to see?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you go to attend?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: How many?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Just think of many books are published every year.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: You need to do a selection and the selection is becoming stricter and stricter.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: You try to curate.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're going out.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Am I really going to the place?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it worth you tend to be more careful?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: You tend to to take the most out of it.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is it worth going to the to the new wine bar serving plant based food with fermented stuff?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I got the impression already seen that movie.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you say the Internet, the the man, the man, I think there is a many vacation of restaurants.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many and they are so all look alike.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: And these days where everybody's trying to find a new formula, like in the old days, is there a life after French cuisine?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: They thought it was the Spanish one.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then is there a life after the Nordic?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hard.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hard.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then is there a life after the Spanish cuisine?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: They thought it was the Danish.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's already ten years.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the people keep asking me, is there a life after the Nordic cuisine?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a life after a tasting menu based restaurant?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is not.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Not yet.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: But what am I supposed to do?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: What are you supposed to do?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: What is the audience, the readers supposed to do to spend their heritage going out for going out to restaurants that most of the times are not worth?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Not the money, but the time we spend there.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Also, going to restaurants is not something that the doctors order us.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: Go to restaurant because it's healthy.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's good for your health.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I see and I think that Naomi Klein might understand it like a sort of the beginning of a resistance.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: The beginning of a resistance to this broad.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: She wrote No Logo, what, 30 years ago.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: You need to resist this mass market driven frenzy of new places.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them are not that interesting.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: They are not worth our attention or our money.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I mean, I think that's what I was getting at when all these conferences started.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: It really started pushing.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone into this kind of funnel.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it all kind of just keeps going to a finer and finer point to where everything's kind of the same.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: But with Jelena, she's always.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's always been about breaking that.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's always been about pushing the arts.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking outside of this little funnel and, you know, for better or worse, you know, like, I mean, if you Google Jelena's and in.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: In like U.S.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: Media, it's like the worst possible things of all the things that ever happened, like came up.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's it's I think it's it's very misunderstood.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Everything that has gone wrong or, you know, has been taken or perceived in a different way.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like the naked women in Belgium, like the debauchery in Lima or, you know, or like the Italian chef, you know, doing like a silly Asian gesture during the, you know, Jelena shuffle.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: And.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like there's this idea that Jelena's represents this kind of.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: This kind of establishment, but I've never felt it like that.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: I felt it's always kind of breaking the establishment.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: And but it's it's messy sometimes.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, someone back at the used to say, used to say, fail, not fail again, not fail better.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to play it safe, you stay in your restaurant, which is what you would normally do.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't go mess around and travel in to attend unless you get a big check and go and do well paid dinners, which is, of course, totally understandable.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the place where the chef should be is in the kitchen with his staff, with his people, with the clients, etc.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if once a year, twice a year, the occasion comes up to try to do something different, something that you might not be there enough to do in your restaurant.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And do it in a collaborative way without rivalry, without competition, without the need to prove that you are the best on the number seven, on the number one, on the number 44.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: And experiment with languages and situations you are not familiar with.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: I call it a workshop, a funny workshop, hopefully, but the workshop, nevertheless.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: In pushing those limits and inviting chefs and guests and everyone else to get out of the comfort zone and, you know, just that ongoing questioning that keeps us alive.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right. And and having a purpose.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: There is a point in which meaning doesn't matter anymore.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: I get the idea of failing because that's what it is about.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: If you are not failing, you're not trying. Right.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: But but is there a moment in which meaning doesn't matter anymore or there is still an ultimate goal of all these?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_03: How do you see that? Or what is your motivation coming from to all these changes and, you know, experiments?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in the making, even if it's a it's a failing situation, new things come up, new gestures, new friendships, new ideas that maybe you have not considered, but because you are working with other people.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: At the beginning, Gelinas was like, oh, well, I'm not going to do this.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought it was more fun to create, like in a piece of music.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: A trio, a duo, a quartet, a solo and have the chefs switch roles and do a few things, maybe by themselves.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then within a trio format or a quartet, then come up with another duo.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: also changing the people you are working with.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's something which is related to jazz,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: to improvisational jazz, the most radical one,
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: what used to be called instant composing.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you step out of the comfort zone,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: if you are not in your kitchen anymore,
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: if you feel safe enough because you are with friends,
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: with an audience who is also willing to take risks,
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's easier for them to experiment something
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: that is not endangering the reputation of the restaurant.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: If I come and I do a fucked up dish
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I represent my own restaurant, I totally fail.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: But if I come to play into this experiment,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: to this central collective playground,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: my dish might be okay or might be very good
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: or not as good as the one that I usually serve
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: or that I might serve in a restaurant,
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: but it's important for the audience and also for the chef.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember that the first time I,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: talking about someone we all know,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: I associated,
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: René Rezepi, not with fermentation,
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: but with pickles, was for a little performance
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: we were doing in January 2010
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: at the border between Slovenia and Italy.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there were a bunch of people like David Chang,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Kike Da Costa, René Yoshiro Narizawa,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Albert Adria, and we were driving to the mountain
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: and René said, hey, I'm going to do a dish.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's good, if it's wrong,
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: but it's mostly pickle stuff.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: I said pickles?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: Pickles, yes, because I've been thinking,
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: we live kind of, we live in a moment of wealthiness,
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: but I was thinking of Denmark 50 years ago, 60 years ago,
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: during the war.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: And for example, the winter of 1941 was the harshest ever,
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: the coldest temperature ever.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: For six months, the temperature was below zero.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, they had nothing to eat
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: because you couldn't grow much stuff.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Denmark was invaded by the Germans, by the Nazis.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody was trying and was surviving with pickle stuff.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they were trying to find a way to get pickles,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the old dish was about pickles.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was a constellation of pickles.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then later on, pickles started to find their way
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: into the menus at Nome.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that he did it because he did it before
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: at this thing, this burger, and all the other chefs,
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: but it's also a way to see if it works,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: if it's the wrong idea, et cetera.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Did you know how like comedians before they do,
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: they do a stand up special, they go test their material.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like they go travel around the shitty clubs
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: and test it with different audiences.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they see what gets a laugh and what doesn't.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the same kind of thing.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just chefs don't have the time to,
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: go around to the shitty clubs. They're not like popping up in the street market somewhere in
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Kansas City and testing out their pickle recipe.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also it's tension and release. Once in a while,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: you open a restaurant and you do a whole week of friends and family dinner just to see where
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: are you going, just to test where you're going, which is healthy, which is intelligent, smart, etc.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: I write a book, I write it, I might say to my wife, hey, don't scream, just have a read,
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: give me your first impression, before I send it to the editor, and then it starts the ping pong.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's a collaborative thing. We expect, on the other side, to go to a restaurant and get the
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: perfect,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: the perfect food, the perfect meal, the perfect horrible expression, the perfect experience,
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: and everything to be perfect. When life is not perfect, life is beautifully controlled,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: at best, chaos, and we need to embrace that. We need to embrace that
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: limits of control somehow, which is totally lucky.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, in most restaurants nowadays, I think.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right. They're just kind of, they're very predictable.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And you don't need to produce only Richard Wagner, the master. The other night
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: when I went to Vittoria Blamey, I almost had ears falling, no, I had almost drops of tears falling from my mouth,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: but in her hands was just so good, so simply done, so heartfelt. She did an empanadas but not with
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: meat but with crab. I could bring my auntie, unfortunately she's dead, and she would
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: understand it and she would like that. I would go with a nephew if I had one, seven years old.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: When you have that moment of grace that without pretending to solve the problems of the world
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: or creating the ultimate masterpiece of the culinary knowledge,
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: you make a dish that can touch a different sort of crowd through the ages, through the classes,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: through the differences. You're a martial man accustomed to eat your empanadas stuffed to the
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: beans with meat. I find a delicate, slightly spicy and gentle and creamy king crab.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's different but you get the addition.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: and you get the same pleasure.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm liking is more of that,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: something that's not just so niche,
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: made for a niche crowd,
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: for that niche of the market.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, something that kind of applies to anyone,
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: that it doesn't matter who you are,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: the restaurants you've gone to,
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: you recognized the combination of flavors and textures
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: because it's a very human way of interpreting it.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, you guys, you know Vittoria.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: She's not the usual chef.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: She said, hey, I'm not your usual underdog.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a chef because I'm a chef.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a good chef because I'm a woman
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: or a Latino American.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be judged by what I do.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there is no storytelling.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's no entertaining.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: When I first stepped into the new Blanca with Vittoria,
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: I saw Vittoria at the sink and I said,
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: ask myself, what is she doing?
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is she washing dishes already?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she was actually giving the shoulders to the crowd,
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: to the public, to the guests sitting at the counter.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: And she was opening up and washing the clams.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: A bit like you enter the stage and it's empty
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: and little by little the show starts to go on
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: and they cook in front of you
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: without pretending to have the audience
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: as a character playing in the script.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_00: You remember the movie by Jonathan Demme
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: with the talking ants, Stop Making Sense?
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: David Byrne arrived alone with a guitarist
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: and then little by little.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: It felt as free as Harry, Harry,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: Ariel as involving as that movie 50 years ago,
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: something like that.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think it was like the 80s, wasn't it?
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, like 40 years ago, I guess.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: The talking ants, they were still going on.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: So 82, 50 years.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: 50 years.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: And being a writer, a journalist,
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_03: a curator of all these things,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: do you worry sometimes about not being able
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: to get the message across?
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, because people tend to go very easily
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: to, you know, the news, the fresh news,
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: the hashtags, the labels, like, you know,
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_03: this is wild.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_03: All these descriptions of the events itself,
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think reduce or sometimes get the wrong message.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_03: Do you worry about that as a curator?
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: Or is something that it's part of embracing,
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know, that chaos and see what happens?
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you worry if it happens
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: that the readers don't get whatever?
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_03: The initial.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: That happens all the time.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, hashtags, labels, trends,
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_03: then it's so easy that people just reduce
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_03: what the thing was about or just like,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: have a take that is totally wrong, you know, on it.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_03: So.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, that happens all the time.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: But also, chefs don't ask themselves,
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: who am I cooking for?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: They take it for granted.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_00: They don't ask the question.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whether a filmmaker, if he does a B movie,
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: if he does a pulp kind of picture movie,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: or if he does an R&D,
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: movie,
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: he asks, who am I filming for?
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: A writer, when he writes a book,
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: he has a certain idea of who is going to read the book.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: Chefs don't.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: Unless we say that they only have,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: they only have the idea of that particular kind of guest,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: money-wise, that could or can afford to go to his restaurant.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the only criteria.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's shared by chefs all over the world.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a mid-range restaurant,
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: they expect a certain kind of crowd.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a top-notch, high-end kind of restaurant,
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: they expect another people from different classes.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: Nowadays, it becomes extremely difficult
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: to hashtag your usual reader.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why that?
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are,
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: so many labels,
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: so many crowds,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: so many different styles of cuisine,
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: so many things happening around all over the world.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there's one thing that is crucial,
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: that is really puzzling.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like too much information,
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_00: pills of information.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: We know everything,
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: what is happening now in Glasgow,
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: in Singapore,
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: in Jakarta,
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: and in Rome and Tokyo.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't know what happened the day before,
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: or we forgot what happened 15 years later.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was, when I was doing the day before,
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_00: two days before the Gelinas and Viarritz in October,
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was driving with an incredible French chef,
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: who has a restaurant in Viarritz,
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: Mathieu Rostand,
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_00: the guy who did Gelinas and Cidette de Charlemagne.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as he was driving,
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: he said,
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: hey, I have an Italian chef,
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mirko, he is super smart,
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_00: great techniques.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: He gets everything.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: He has a great knowledge of products, etc.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: And he knows everything.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: He knows,
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: he's all the time on Instagram.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: But if you ask him,
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: hey, what do you think of Alain Chappelle's legacy?
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know who Alain Chappelle was.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Alain Chappelle died,
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: 30,
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: 33 years old.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: He was not even born.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we might understand,
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: even if today it's easy.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: You Google and you can get the book,
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: and everybody has been talking about Chappelle for years.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: But young generation might not know Alain Chappelle.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_00: But then he also said,
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: Mathieu Rostand also said,
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: and what is even more astonishing,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: I asked him,
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: hey, what do you think of,
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: Inaki Eid Spitarte?
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: Inaki Eid Spitarte is the chef of the
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: Charte Bistro in Paris,
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_00: Le Chateaubriand.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think of Inaki Eid Spitarte
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: coming to Saint-Jean-de-Luz
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: and opening in March, April,
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: a restaurant in the Basque Country?
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And Mirko didn't know
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: who Inaki Eid Spitarte was.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why that?
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not on social medias,
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: because it doesn't do Top Chef,
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: because he has not published the book.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because he's not going touring with the Congresses,
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_00: he's not playing the game.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's so easy not to know
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: what is outside your comfort zone.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so easy to forget
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_00: what happened before.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, when you write,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_00: the question is,
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_00: who am I writing for?
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: People my age,
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_00: people a bit younger,
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: people who are
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_00: as crazy about food as me,
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_00: people who come from a different background.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I have the impression
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_00: that my best readers
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: might be people who are not
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: only interested in food.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_01: There is this subset of people that
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: are only interested in food now.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've created monsters of
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: these people that
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_01: their whole life is traveling to restaurants
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_01: and they don't think about anything else.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like music doesn't enter their brain anymore.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or film.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I see them.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm right,
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: if I simplify,
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: but I see those international foodies
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_00: that somehow manage to earn a living,
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: and spend all their time and money
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: on visiting restaurants.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I see them as the
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: ultimate ambassadors of late capitalism.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of consumerism.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of...
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember the word,
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: when you eat so much.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Bolini.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Gluttony.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Gluttony when you are bulimic in France.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you eat all the time,
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: even when it's not needed.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, binging.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: The real ambassadors of late capitalism.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And also traveling non-stop,
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: the planes,
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: the carbon,
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: the carbon footprints.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: The...
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's become what we might call
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: the food and roll circus.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Might be fun.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: That was the article
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: the title of a fantastic article
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_00: that Liz Abbott wrote years ago
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: for Full Magazine.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_00: The food and roll circus.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was a very political,
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: very political article.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Studying, investigating
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: how it works,
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: how...
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not just the rankings about
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_00: how meat is created,
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: how the aura of chefs is created,
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: how is the virus communication,
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_00: the communication becoming viral.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was such an important article.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: In the end,
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: now I remember,
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_00: she even won...
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_00: The World Restaurant Award.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: The World Restaurant Award.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: But what I find fascinating about that
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: is
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_01: since that was published,
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it exposed a lot of things.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe things that were already known,
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: at least by some of us, but...
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now it almost acts like a blueprint
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_01: as how to game the system.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering is,
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: like, how much further
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_01: this all can go.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_00: How much further we can go
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: before the end,
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: the decline of Western civilization.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like,
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I feel like the restaurant,
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_01: the scene will,
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: the bubble will pop before the decline
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: of Western civilization.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it...
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're optimistic.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_02: You're optimistic.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, like, by a few years,
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at least.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it'll be a symbol
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_01: of what's to come.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: there will be, like,
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: the bubble will pop.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sooner than later.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_00: The soup rhymes.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_00: When the bubble, the real estate,
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_00: the internet bubble,
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_00: everybody...
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I go back to the idea
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_00: of the resistance
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: of abstaining from a restaurant going.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody is starting
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_00: unconsciously or consciously,
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_00: clearly, rationally,
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: or just, they just feel it.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the question is,
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_00: how long before the restaurant bubble
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_00: pops up, explodes?
• 1:15:07
  Yeah.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_03: But as you say,
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's really connected
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_03: with capitalism and consumerism.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just another phase
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_03: of that mentality
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_03: and socioeconomic dynamic.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder, I mean,
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_03: it's all this binging of...
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's success for the sake of success, right?
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't have any other sense
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_03: that just consume as much as possible
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_03: in traveling, in miles,
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_03: in likes, in followers,
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_03: in engagement of people, in success.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's social media.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it's this nonsense.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I was like asking you two about meaning,
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_03: because there has to be some sort of proportion
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_03: and prudence and what matters and why, right?
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_03: And this seems to be
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_03: from the other direction of excess
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_03: without any productive outcome
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_03: for anyone in the long term,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_03: talking about sustainability.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I wonder if that like, you know,
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_03: the case of the restaurant as this formality
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: that became part of the system
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_03: and part of it is going to be attached
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_03: to some more deeper questions
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_03: about capitalism and what...
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: We have, as guests, as journalists,
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_00: we have no other role to play
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_00: than think yes or no.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I approve, I like.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't like, I abstain.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because when have you seen the last time
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_00: a journalist expressed
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_00: his dislike or his doubts about the restaurant?
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, it's becoming very, very, very rare.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, yes or no.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_00: We are all part of this publicity thing,
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: to this promotional thing.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_00: For Christ's sake, as well to Gand,
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: as well on the head of my son,
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_00: not long time ago,
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_00: two, three months, I discovered
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_00: that the restaurant was on Instagram.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now if you're ready to post your thing,
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_00: if you want to push forward your publicity,
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_00: the publicity, what do you mean?
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they understood that Instagram
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_00: called my post, whatever it was, publicity.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm not a publicity man.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not the hero of Mad Men.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't work in an agency.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not selling something.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do silly, crazy posts or whatever it is,
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm not promoting anything,
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_00: not even myself.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we are all publicity men at the end.
• 1:17:48
  Yeah.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought,
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_00: not even the darkest hours
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_00: or the sleepless nights,
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: that the single fact of posting an Instagram
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_00: or a Twitter or a thread
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_00: or whatever could be conceived
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_00: and considered like publicity.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_00: As a Catholic boy,
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_00: I always thought publicity
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_00: to be gross, vulgar and immoral.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I guess you have Jesus
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_01: to look after you.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or Jehovah soon.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or Philip Roth, I guess.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I miss him.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_00: You old bastard.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Andy.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else?
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Anything else you want to talk about?
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_00: When are we going to meet again?
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Are you coming back to New York?
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I missed you the last time.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_00: New York,
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_00: when we do the Gelinas at Filgurons,
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_00: hopefully with Emmanuel Wilkins,
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_00: you'll be the first one to know.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if you come to Europe,
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_00: let's meet somewhere.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's always a room for friends.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sounds good.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_00: I hope I answered all your existential questions.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I could ask a million other things
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_01: about a million different topics.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I have a list of just random things
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_01: we could have talked about.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you're driving in Italy.
• 1:19:32
  Yeah.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm curious, like, you actually,
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_01: you never learned to drive at all.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, I can drive.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know how to drive.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I proved it to you.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Was that proving it?
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm a good driver.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not Ryan Gosling, but I can actually.
• 1:19:50
  Okay.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess, was it stick or what was going on?
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was a stick shift.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was stick.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was fully automatic.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was easy.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we only drove, you know, like 50 meters,
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_01: and like I was afraid for my life.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Three hours.
• 1:20:14
  Okay.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't drive, but I bike a lot in the city.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of your daily, that's your exercise routine
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: with the kombucha.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have my beanie, I drive my bike, and I go to the producer's market on Saturday.
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a good guy at the end.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know you are.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know you are.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_01: A good Catholic boy.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_00: What was the movie, Catholic Boys?
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was not a movie with Michael Douglas.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Catholic Boys.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are you talking about?
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let me see, Catholic Boys.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was a movie about raping priests, something like that.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, I know what you're talking about.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Shit, what was it?
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was in New York in like the 70s, I think.
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_01: A Bronx thing?
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was in New York.
• 1:21:32
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_03: Wonderboys?
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it was the French title.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have a question for you guys.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, 40 days before the, who's going to win at the Oscars?
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_00: The French movie, I don't remember, I don't know, I don't remember.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_00: and rush and see, or the Zone of Interest
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_00: by Jonathan Glaser, which I strongly advise you to go and see.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because of the moment, I think the Zone of Interest.
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know. I haven't
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_03: seen either. Just because of what's happening now.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_00: You have seen them? I haven't seen either of them.
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, no. You've seen both of them? Yes.
• 1:22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So which one would you vote? It's just between... Oh, I'll choose
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_03: Anatomy of a Fall. I really like it.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's the movie. Anatomy of a Fall.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_03: I agree. And her acting is just great.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I suggest that all my friends who have trouble in their marital
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_00: relationship to go and see the movie.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah. But I think
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_03: the Zone of Interest might win, just because of the topic.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Worst case scenario, the best sound design
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_00: and the most radical music by Mika Levy.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_00: At least.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So do you think which one is going to win? What do you think is going to happen?
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think... I love Jonathan Glaser, all his previous movies.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I literally
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_00: fell on my knees when I saw Anatomy of a Fall.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And I know plenty of people who have never seen another movie by Justine
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Triet.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they all loved it. And also in France,
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_00: it's become almost a state affair, because the night she won at the
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Canopy Festival, when she went on stage, instead of, hey, let me think,
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_00: my mom and my husband, all my friends and the producer, she delivered a rather
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_00: harsh and strongly political speech against the cultural politics of the government,
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_00: warning how with new laws coming up, the French government would
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_00: stop supporting little independent movies and going into what they call
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_00: the creation of content, meaning the streaming, the big apps, etc.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she also supported the struggle of the people against the retirement laws.
• 1:24:42
  SPEAKER_00: She was very, very, very political.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_00: At the point that the Minister of Culture, she reacted in another way.
• 1:24:52
  SPEAKER_00: There was a couple of strong reactions within the government.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And when a few months later, the French country proposed a movie,
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_00: the candidate for the Oscars as a foreign movie,
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_00: it proposed a movie about food with Juliette Binoche,
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_00: which is not a very good movie, but it's rather what we call it,
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_00: a repertoire movie in costumes.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:28
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, it was a failure at the book office.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So when the international recognition started to come up,
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_00: the Justin Trillet movie was doing wonders all over Europe.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then it was nominated in the States.
• 1:25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then the Grammys, etc., etc., etc.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was only at the end of...
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_00: When were the Grammys?
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Beginning of January.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a few weeks ago, right?
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was only in January.
• 1:25:56
  SPEAKER_00: That means seven months later that President Macron
• 1:26:00
  SPEAKER_00: expressed his support to the French director, Justin Trillet.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_00: So supporting Justin, it also implies taking a political stand in France these days.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just to make things a little bit more complicated.
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:26:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I love the Jonathan Glaser movie.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, by the way,
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_00: the director of photography,
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_00: or one of the directors of photography,
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_00: is an English guy who lives 500 meters from my place in France.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is he a friend?
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_00: We have met a few times for social mingling.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not a close friend, but someone else.
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I officially support both movies
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_00: with a little inkling for the Justin Trillet.
• 1:26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love it.
• 1:26:57
  SPEAKER_00: But Nick, go and watch the movies before the Oscars.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I will.
• 1:27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've been away a lot the last couple of months and haven't really sat down to watch anything.
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much, Andy.
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you feel like it, we could do it again.
• 1:27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime.
• 1:27:23
  Okay.
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have to do it more often.
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe after the Oscars.
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, after the Oscars.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 1:27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Why not a special edition?
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, special edition.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're going to start doing like with multiple guests,
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_01: like having like a theme,
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_01: theme interviews,
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_01: like to where we like debate a topic and doing like that.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because now that Julie's here,
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_01: that it's a little more flexible.
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's more we can do.
• 1:27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Guys, whenever you need an extra moderator,
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_00: just bring me.
• 1:27:59
  SPEAKER_00: All right, man.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was good talking to you.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I hope to see you soon somewhere.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be in touch.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure I'll run into you.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, guys.
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Have a nice weekend.
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Nice weekend.
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Nice life.
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_03: Have a wonderful weekend there.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.
• 1:28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Bye bye.
• 1:28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Bye bye.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Ciao.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoyed that interview with the great Andrea Petrini.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_01: The Andy of Jelena's.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't subscribed to the newsletter yet,
• 1:28:39
  SPEAKER_01: go to New World or dot com or search for New World on Substack to subscribe.
• 1:28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And a big thank you to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the music to the show.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Find out more about Pat at Pat buzzard dot com.
• 1:28:57
  We'll be right back.
• 1:29:26
  We'll be right back.