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259: Why Customer Experience Transformations Fail in the Middle · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 0:47
  Welcome back to the Customer Service Revolution podcast.
• 0:51
  Today we're talking about a group that may be the most overlooked part of any customer experience transformation.
• 0:58
  Middle managers.
• 0:59
  But before we get into that, John, I gotta ask you about the hat.
• 1:03
  Hmm.
• 1:05
  Cal.
• 1:06
  it's a Cal Berkeley Bears hat, but my middle son, as you know, is Cal.
• 1:11
  And he is getting married on July fifth in a castle in Sweden.
• 1:15
  And I leave in a few days to go there and be part of
• 1:21
  a spectacular event, as you know, Cal.
• 1:24
  He knows he only knows one way to do things.
• 1:26
  So I'm really excited and love his fiance, soon to be my son in law and I'm really looking forward to this and so many people are going.
• 1:37
  He I don't know how he ended up inviting, but he I think he he said initially he was gonna invite, you know, close to two hundred and I said, Well a destination wedding in Europe
• 1:49
  don't expect seventy more than seventy five, maybe not that much.
• 1:52
  And s he's g he has two hundred coming, so he must have exceeded the two hundred, but it says a lot about him that so many people are going to Europe for a trip, a wedding.
• 2:04
  that's I mean that's that's not a little destination wedding, that's a big destination.
• 2:09
  But how exciting.
• 2:10
  Yeah.
• 2:10
  Yeah, I can't wait.
• 2:11
  I can't wait.
• 2:12
  And to see what he he does.
• 2:15
  you know, I'm sure there's many surprises.
• 2:18
  he I don't know if I told you this offline, but he took his mom's wedding dress and made it into his had it made into his tuxedo and when I saw it, I I was shocked.
• 2:28
  I thought it was gonna be like the inside lining, the whole thing is is the wedding dress.
• 2:34
  my God.
• 2:34
  I can't wait to see pictures of this.
• 2:37
  It's gonna be amazing, I'm sure.
• 2:39
  He's so talented, so creative.
• 2:42
  Yeah.
• 2:43
  Yeah, I'm looking forward to this.
• 2:45
  I imagine like Cal could have been an event planner.
• 2:48
  He is yeah.
• 2:49
  So this is gonna be a spectacular wedding.
• 2:51
  Yep, I can't wait.
• 2:53
  And I'm I'm not a big wedding person.
• 2:55
  I try not to go to him and duck out if I can, but no, this one I'm really excited about.
• 3:01
  So many people are there to support him 'cause he's he's he he's done that for others.
• 3:07
  Yeah.
• 3:07
  And I am a big fan of the person he's marrying as well.
• 3:14
  What a great couple.
• 3:16
  Yeah.
• 3:19
  Hmm.
• 3:20
  So you're leaving soon.
• 3:21
  Are are you what are you looking forward to?
• 3:25
  you know, it's nice.
• 3:25
  I I get there Tuesday, the wedding's Sunday, we're flying into Copenhagen and I'm hanging out with I believe just Kyle and Cal for, you know, until Friday.
• 3:36
  I don't know when his fan anyone starts arriving, but I think the majority of guests arrive on Friday.
• 3:42
  So that's when we you know, Thursday maybe.
• 3:44
  I I don't even know.
• 3:45
  He he knows the itinerary.
• 3:47
  I just follow it, but Thursday and or Friday we go over to the Sweden part and I can't remember what part it is, but to where the wedding's gonna be.
• 3:56
  And then the festivities begin Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
• 4:01
  Fabulous.
• 4:01
  What day are they actually getting married?
• 4:03
  Fri a Sunday the July fifth.
• 4:07
  Yeah.
• 4:08
  Great.
• 4:09
  Copenhagen's a great town.
• 4:11
  Isn't it one of the happiest one of the happiest locations in the world, don't they say?
• 4:18
  I think they have like they're high on the happiness factor.
• 4:22
  Well they might be just high in general, but I think
• 4:26
  Well right now they're almost all daylight.
• 4:31
  I o over twenty hours.
• 4:34
  But yeah, but then the then the winter they're they're almost all dark, which has to have a effect on the psyche.
• 4:43
  But I don't know, Sweden does really well with a and you know I'm sure it's Copenhagen too with I don't know, a lot of
• 4:49
  th they you know, their government seems to handle things good and people seem to be really happy.
• 4:55
  But they're all tall.
• 4:56
  The women are tall.
• 4:57
  Like, you know.
• 4:58
  It's it's shocking how tall they are.
• 5:01
  I'm actually have I have a Swedish
• 5:03
  F Emmy is living with us for the summer.
• 5:06
  I I don't know if I told you she's interning at MAI, which is a great financial where my son Bo is interning and she's from Sweden and she's tall.
• 5:15
  She's six foot you know, six foot maybe s six foot one.
• 5:19
  Yeah.
• 5:22
  Yeah.
• 5:22
  a great experience for her to be spending it spending her internship there and in your household.
• 5:28
  I'm sure she's loved a lot.
• 5:29
  Oh well I can't wait to hear the stories you're gonna come back with too.
• 5:36
  Yeah.
• 5:37
  Find out what makes them so happy.
• 5:38
  Yeah.
• 5:39
  All right, let's get into our topic today on middle managers.
• 5:42
  A lot of organizations focus on two audiences.
• 5:45
  They get senior leadership team aligned, and then they train the frontline employees who interact with the customers every day.
• 5:53
  But there's that layer in between that determines whether the strategy actually becomes real.
• 5:58
  The frontline does not experience the CEO's vision every day.
• 6:02
  They experience their manager.
• 6:04
  And if that manager is overwhelmed, unclear, uninvolved, unsupported, the customer
• 6:09
  Customer experience initiative becomes one more thing competing for their attention.
• 6:14
  And we've seen that a lot.
• 6:15
  People have too many things on their plate, and so this is a tough thing to tackle.
• 6:19
  so today let's talk about why CX transformations often fail in the middle, what leaders misunderstand about middle managers, and how to turn managers into culture carriers
• 6:32
  instead of message carriers.
• 6:33
  Let's start here with the real problem.
• 6:36
  When companies launch a customer experience initiative, they usually focus on executive buy-in and frontline training.
• 6:42
  What are they missing when they skip over the middle manager?
• 6:46
  Well, listen, while we do focus on customer and employee experience, this is any launch of any project system rollout.
• 6:55
  and and me and Dave just had two back to back podcasts on this subject, zeroing in on a different part, but we like to say there's stick six stakeholders in a in a project
• 7:08
  launch.
• 7:10
  And depending on how big your company is, some of them may combine.
• 7:13
  But let's let's say a a good size million in revenue or or or larger, the six key stakeholders that you have to, you know, all r be represented in a launch is the senior
• 7:27
  executive team.
• 7:29
  the project champion, which in a bigger company will probably be a a an element of that who's who's tasked with it.
• 7:37
  Project lead, who is
• 7:39
  you know, the the the the the go to every day in in in our world it could be a chief experience officer, you know, who who's who's leading this charge and and then the the
• 7:50
  fourth stakeholder is the customer experience steering committee, which is made up of HODs, heads of departments.
• 7:58
  And that's that's really what w you know, I I think we're gonna talk about today.
• 8:03
  the fifth
• 8:04
  is customer facing employees.
• 8:06
  And then the sixth is the customer.
• 8:09
  Like, you know, that's a stakeholder and we have to, you know, find out if what we created, launched, and hopefully are executing.
• 8:16
  Is it having the impact we thought it would?
• 8:19
  Was it a dud?
• 8:20
  Is it not worth the, you know, you know, time, energy, you know, and not everything always is.
• 8:25
  So that's that's really important is making sure, you know, on anything you roll out, whether it's with a third party company or not, you have each one of these, you know, that
• 8:38
  have their responsibilities.
• 8:40
  But as as you point out, Denise, I think the the middle managers get lost in it all.
• 8:45
  What's the difference in those middle managers, one who repeats the customer experience message and one who actually translates it into behavior?
• 8:55
  Yeah, I'm gonna I I'm gonna just like an employee who fails, I'm gonna say a manager who who fails.
• 9:02
  Vast majority of the time it's not the manager, it's not the employee, it's what we the top didn't do properly to prepare them.
• 9:10
  But but someone who just repeats
• 9:12
  Is is delivering a mandate from above versus total buy-in.
• 9:16
  And I always say this at at a launch that we've done with a company.
• 9:21
  is, you know, it's usually franchisees, general managers, department heads, heads of departments, blah blah blah.
• 9:29
  I always say that the department team location that performs the best.
• 9:36
  versus those who don't come down to one thing and one thing only you in the in the room and I'm talking about the middle manager and and that's you who passionately believe it
• 9:46
  talks about the why behind it, the impact it will have or is having, celebrates the correct behavior, you know, coaches the the ones that aren't doing it yet at the frontline
• 9:57
  level versus someone who's just dumping
• 10:01
  this in front of hey, corporate sent this, you guys need to, you know, read through this.
• 10:06
  you need to take a a test.
• 10:08
  You need to do this.
• 10:09
  You know, that's that's everything.
• 10:11
  And and I I I I think to your point, top execs, you know, blame the front line.
• 10:17
  and and it's not it's not the front line.
• 10:19
  It's and again it's most cases not the middle managers.
• 10:22
  It's not preparing the middle managers properly.
• 10:26
  So one of the one of the topics we hear before we even start an initiative, a worry that senior leadership can have is the resistance they're gonna get.
• 10:36
  Do you think most middle managers resist customer experience initiatives, or are they just overwhelmed by unclear priorities?
• 10:45
  again we're talking about the majority, there's always, you know, the the less than ten percent, hopefully less than five percent, that we c we'll address later.
• 10:52
  just like employees.
• 10:53
  There's there's n not everyone is gonna, you know, drink the Kool-Aid and go do it.
• 10:59
  but but we'll we'll address that in a little bit.
• 11:01
  But it's overwhelmed.
• 11:03
  Vast majority of middle managers and employees is overwhelmed.
• 11:08
  think about every company, every department is fighting for mind share of of the employee.
• 11:14
  you know, a and when I say frontline customer facing employee, people think of cashiers at McDonald's, you know, or or or or or what frontline customer facing employee means you
• 11:28
  know,
• 11:28
  Anyone that comes in contact with a customer, client, guest, patient, that's doctors, that's nurses, that's technicians, that's consultants, that's lawyers.
• 11:38
  But now think about every department, you know, most companies have operations, marketing, sales, customer experience, technology.
• 11:46
  The list goes on, are all trying to get their product, service, services, and messaging top of mind.
• 11:56
  And a lot of stuff is being thrown at them and everyone has their own agenda a as they should, but that's that's a lot.
• 12:03
  That's a lot for an employee and a middle manager to sift through and and, you know, know what is truly important.
• 12:12
  And they're all important.
• 12:14
  They're all important.
• 12:15
  but it it it it's it's about messaging.
• 12:18
  Yeah.
• 12:18
  And I think the distinction between that's important because it's easy to label managers as resistant when the real problem is we haven't set them up to succeed.
• 12:28
  what happens when middle managers are given responsibility for culture change, but not enough authority time or support to really drive it?
• 12:38
  All right, so the magic number for today's podcast is six.
• 12:42
  I said there were sti six key stakeholders.
• 12:45
  And then there's also you know, we always talk about written articles, podcasts, and it's the majority of our our consulting.
• 12:54
  There's six steps
• 12:56
  to a successful product launch and and I'm sorry, project launch.
• 13:00
  And again, it doesn't matter if it's customer experience or anything you're rolling out.
• 13:04
  There's create it, launch it.
• 13:07
  And and and and and create it as you you know, you do a workshop, you create the system, the you know, whatever that may be, the the signature customer experience, the zero risk
• 13:17
  service recovery plan, the above whatever it may be.
• 13:20
  That's relatively easy.
• 13:22
  Launching it is, you know, you rally a group together, and it could be the middle managers, it c you know, who whoever you can get, and you have this fireworks techno, you
• 13:32
  know, you know, it's like a a a
• 13:34
  A concert, right?
• 13:36
  That's the easiest.
• 13:37
  Now it's where it gets harder, all right.
• 13:39
  So the third one is certify it.
• 13:41
  All right.
• 13:42
  i because you can't have everyone at the launch.
• 13:45
  You you know, you you might only have leaders at the launch.
• 13:49
  and now you gotta it's a train the trainer.
• 13:51
  Now you gotta make sure that these middle managers, heads of departments in conjunction with training and HR and w however your your business model is is goes back and and
• 14:02
  That's that's a lot easier said than done, right?
• 14:09
  We're doing it next week and Denise is on vacation, which you are.
• 14:13
  so you know, but that's when we're doing it.
• 14:15
  So are are we gonna get Denise the one-off?
• 14:18
  When is she gonna get trained?
• 14:19
  And then certification has so many more elements.
• 14:21
  Just because you sat through it doesn't mean you paid attention.
• 14:27
  buy into it and retained it.
• 14:29
  So then there has to be a certification of where you test it first, you know, you know, before you go out there.
• 14:35
  Then implement it, which is a whole thing, you know, crawl, walk and run.
• 14:40
  And then fifth is measure it.
• 14:42
  Right?
• 14:42
  That you're doing it and you know, it it's being executed.
• 14:46
  And then the the the new phrase is ever boarding that I wanna have a podcast on it, and I'll go into it a little bit more, but again, too much is focused on
• 14:59
  The you know certifying it and and launching it.
• 15:02
  those are easy paths.
• 15:04
  The hard is the you know, executing it consistently that six to eighteen months from now, it's being it's it's still b happening.
• 15:12
  And without minimum middle management's buy-in and being an integral part of, you know, the three through five, three through six, this isn't gonna happen.
• 15:23
  So you mentioned buy in.
• 15:25
  How can leaders, senior leaders tell whether the managers are truly bought in or they're just politely complying with what they've been asked to do?
• 15:35
  results don't lie.
• 15:36
  And you know, you know, and and so in the certification execution, you know, you you should have tangible reports that, you know, each manager's you know direct reports, you
• 15:48
  know, they're a hundred percent that they went through the training, they a hundred percent passed it.
• 15:53
  Now, you know, creating the KPIs, which we like to call return on experience dashboard, you know, you know, it you know, what's happening.
• 16:02
  So, you know, in some of these things
• 16:04
  Things do take a long time.
• 16:06
  just because you rolled out a a new customer experience, signature experience, you know, July first.
• 16:14
  You're not gonna see the results in KPIs immediately.
• 16:17
  So retention rates aren't gonna soar overnight.
• 16:20
  referral rates aren't gonna soar overnight.
• 16:23
  Maybe customer complaints aren't gonna go down overnight.
• 16:26
  but but some creative things that I've seen is like I remember going to CVS, seen you know, mm you know, 10, 15 years ago, but it was funny.
• 16:36
  They had a they had a sign at I think at the pharmacy.
• 16:39
  I don't know if they had it at the other checkout, but said, I don't know, something like, do you want a kiss today?
• 16:45
  And then there was a jar of kisses, Hershey kisses, and it said, if we didn't smile, you get a kiss.
• 16:52
  You know, whatever.
• 16:53
  It I I think that's more fun.
• 16:54
  I d you know, but you know, it it's just it's also putting something on the the the employee.
• 16:59
  Something that that you probably remember that we did probably back when you were managing the salons is so we have these what we call value added, where you're supposed to get a
• 17:10
  compara shoulder, neck and head massage before your shampoo, hand and arm massage during your haircut or highlight and
• 17:19
  And for women, a makeup touch up.
• 17:21
  All these are complimentary, value added, take a few minutes.
• 17:25
  But we knew that everyone wasn't offering them.
• 17:28
  And so, you know, for a while we had a sign up front that said, Your service is free today if you weren't offered the following.
• 17:39
  couldn't say if you didn't get because some people say, No, thank you.
• 17:42
  don't have time or you know, don't need a makeup touch up or whatever that may be.
• 17:47
  But you know, that's an accountability.
• 17:49
  Obviously if if we're giving anyone free services today, you know, we're gonna we're gonna wanna know why and you know, who's not doing it.
• 17:57
  So, you know, there's there's there's technical sophisticated ways and then there's just some, you know, top of mind ways to keep it in front of people.
• 18:06
  Is there any are there any other KPIs that you would recommend so that we know the initiative is working, that people don't just look alive during meetings but but these
• 18:15
  things disappear during daily operations?
• 18:17
  Yeah, I mean there's a ton and that's a whole we've done it and and probably will do it again, you know, KPI return on experience dashboard, but it depends on the business model.
• 18:26
  I can't stress enough earn sales growth, which measures repeat, retained, and referrals.
• 18:33
  you got customer complaints, you got, you know, there there's so many you know NPS which you know and and customer satisfaction, which I don't think.
• 18:42
  are has the same value as today.
• 18:45
  but it it all depends on on your business model and and and you know type of business you have.
• 18:50
  But yeah, I mean there's too many to mention on this, but we could put a link to podcast and blogs.
• 18:57
  We've talked about creating your return on experience dashboard depending on the type of business model you have.
• 19:03
  Great.
• 19:04
  carriers.
• 19:05
  Most people don't want to be a carrier for anything, but if you could be a true carrier for a customer experience culture, what does that look like?
• 19:13
  What does a middle manager need in order to become that?
• 19:17
  So there's a lot here but obviously they gotta be the first one trained and certified and understand the why behind it.
• 19:24
  Why is this the best thing the company has ever done or is doing, you know, why is this gonna give us a competitive advantage, so we don't have to compete in price and you know,
• 19:36
  we increase the retention rates and you know, the benefit it has to the middle managers, you know, the company to to you know, new
• 19:44
  employees and and all that.
• 19:46
  and then you know held accountable with the correct return on experience dashboard and celebrating the employees that are doing it and coaching the ones that aren't.
• 19:56
  And that that is a whole you know celebrating and and training it or coaching to it is a you know a a a a key element
• 20:06
  So what does coaching look like?
• 20:08
  What do those behaviors look like without making it feel like another corporate script?
• 20:12
  So so just coaching and f first storytelling is vital.
• 20:17
  it teaches the why supported by data, and
• 20:20
  you know, I think I don't know if she coined it but it's the first time I ever heard it.
• 20:24
  The great Mickey Williams.
• 20:27
  Mickey is it Mickey Williams?
• 20:28
  The s speak yeah, right?
• 20:30
  That we've yeah, yeah.
• 20:32
  sh you know she she does storytelling she's a storytelling keynote speaker, c consult she's awesome.
• 20:39
  Sh I heard her say, Data tells stories sell.
• 20:42
  So hey, you know, 72% of the you know, this will happen if you do this.
• 20:46
  Okay, but but then you tell the story and the impact and and and people remember that.
• 20:51
  So and and also make the middle managers a part of the creating, and that's where we go to the third stakeholder, the customer experience ambassadors, that when it's part of the
• 21:01
  workshops, any workshops you're doing, and that the project lead uses as
• 21:08
  you their committee this CX steering committee you know they they they have to be part of it and and and not so it's not just a mandate.
• 21:17
  Now you can't have everyone but a representation of each department so there's no one saying yeah that's for you know the the accountants but it doesn't it's not for me you
• 21:28
  know if it's for everyone in the company and top of mind awareness is always important pressure and accountability
• 21:35
  Whose teams are doing it?
• 21:37
  Ranking.
• 21:38
  You know, you know, the report comes out every Monday, you know, and and here's the, you know, here's the top and here's the bottom.
• 21:46
  No one wants to be in the bottom, and no one manager wants to, you know, be asked why his or her team is is is not in the top.
• 21:53
  What are some simple weekly habits that managers can use to keep CX alive within their teams?
• 22:00
  So this is there's a book out called From Onboarding to Everboarding by Amber Watts.
• 22:08
  and
• 22:08
  You know, it's just it's it it's it's so cool.
• 22:10
  I'm reading it now and really it's you know, y y you know what onboarding is it's your first two weeks, first ninety days, and we fire hose you and and and whether it's a a a a
• 22:22
  new employee or it's a new project that they're being taught or a new manager.
• 22:26
  What you do to an employee is what you need to do to a manager a and better.
• 22:31
  But traditional onboarding i and this is from the book.
• 22:35
  Is is a relic of the past.
• 22:38
  The frantic sprint to get new hires up to speed, followed by a deafening silence, often falls short.
• 22:46
  What if instead you could create a seamless ongoing journey of growth and development from the day an employee starts and throughout their tenure?
• 22:56
  An ever-boarding experience.
• 22:58
  I love that.
• 22:59
  I love that.
• 23:00
  it starts with someone having a counter.
• 23:02
  For trading and development, one of its functions on function accountability chart tool.
• 23:08
  I believe this is Vern Harnish.
• 23:09
  I I heard about this book, and this quote came from one of Vern Harnish's newsletter.
• 23:14
  and so he's talking about on on his framework, he has a function accountability charts tool, which is often left blank.
• 23:24
  A players want to work for a
• 23:25
  firm that keeps them growing, keeps them relevant, and if a potential team player doesn't have the will to learn and keep current, don't hire them.
• 23:34
  So again, that that is a little bit more focused, but the on new hires, but this applies to you know the the managers toma you know are we talking about if you have huddles if you
• 23:47
  have to weekly town halls you gotta
• 23:50
  visit this every week.
• 23:52
  We talk at length about micro learning, which is you know every Wednesday at 4:30.
• 23:59
  You send out a 90-second video that's reminding people you know how to use Ford.
• 24:05
  I'm using that as an example.
• 24:07
  FORD family operate operations, a family occupation, recreation, and dreams, the power of it, the winds, how someone just used it, where.
• 24:16
  it's kept, where it's documented, maybe there's a contest, and just constant storytelling of people that are doing it right.
• 24:23
  Love that.
• 24:24
  And so let's give that book a shout out again.
• 24:26
  Amber
• 24:28
  Amber Watts.
• 24:30
  Yeah.
• 24:31
  and the book is From Onboarding to Everboarding.
• 24:35
  I love that term.
• 24:36
  Yeah, that's a good one.
• 24:38
  All right, yeah.
• 24:38
  all right, leadership's role in this, John.
• 24:41
  What does senior leadership need to do differently if they want managers to actually lead the transformation?
• 24:47
  Be obsessed about it, you know, talk about it, share results, celebrate the victories.
• 24:53
  People love to be part of success.
• 24:55
  And more importantly, the reason for the success.
• 24:59
  You know, make make the middle managers the hero of the story, and they have to make their customer facing employees the hero of the show and the support story.
• 25:10
  So
• 25:10
  You know, that that that that is is is to me ninety percent of the lift.
• 25:16
  What does air cover look like for a manager who's trying to hold the line on service standards?
• 25:23
  No matter how good the preparation and the training is they receive, there will always be a few managers that just don't buy in.
• 25:31
  Therefore, they don't sell it well and they don't get to buy in.
• 25:35
  Therefore the results will be poor.
• 25:37
  And just like a small percentage of customer-facing employees, no matter how well they're trained, may not get it.
• 25:43
  And maybe they slip through the cracks.
• 25:45
  just like the managers, maybe they slip through the cracks of
• 25:48
  getting promoted when they shouldn't have, or getting hired, you know, when when when maybe they're not right fit.
• 25:54
  you know, so coach them, hold them accountable, and if there's no improvement, they can't be part of your culture.
• 26:00
  I mean just imagine if you worked at Chick-fil-A or Ritz Carlton or Zappos or Amazon and at any level you were not customer obsessed.
• 26:12
  y you just th you just w you wouldn't you wouldn't be permitted to stay.
• 26:16
  what are the warning signs that middle managers are becoming the bottleneck in a customer experience transformation?
• 26:22
  Yeah.
• 26:23
  So again, let's revisit the six stakeholders.
• 26:26
  I you know, and and and I think each
• 26:29
  as a company, as a a senior executive, you have to look in the mirror at if we're doing everything and senior leadership, sponsorship, are we are we drawing a line in the sand
• 26:40
  and saying this is what we're going it's not going away.
• 26:44
  you know, and and and we're sending that message and holding everyone accountable.
• 26:48
  Project champion same, project lead the same.
• 26:51
  Again, the past two podcasts we spent a lot of time on that.
• 26:55
  Project leader in the CX steering committee, which is middle management part of it.
• 27:00
  Customer-facing employees and customers.
• 27:02
  So if senior leadership believes the middle manager got trained, certified, and are being held accountable, and the results are not happening compared to the rest of the companies,
• 27:14
  other departments, locations, teams, it it is the
• 27:18
  head of department.
• 27:19
  It is the middle manager.
• 27:21
  Results don't lie.
• 27:22
  You are what your retention rates say you are.
• 27:25
  you are what your referrals say you are.
• 27:28
  Your customer complaints don't you whatever you're tackling, you know, those don't lie.
• 27:34
  And and that's it.
• 27:35
  I mean that really the results don't lie.
• 27:38
  You just gotta make sure you're not holding someone accountable for results that they weren't properly trained on.
• 27:43
  And and again, I the same thing that you want your customer face and employees to be doing, the the the the leadersh middle management has to be trained and model the
• 27:54
  behavior.
• 27:56
  All right, so if a company's starting a transformation, they know they need to do something, but they realize that their managers are not equipped to drive the culture,
• 28:06
  where should where should they start?
• 28:08
  Huh.
• 28:08
  That gets into a whole nother discussion that we've had.
• 28:11
  That's a chapter in the employee experience revolution.
• 28:15
  It's you know, we've done podcasts on it, and we've also you know written a lot of articles on it, but it's it's it's it's the accidental managers.
• 28:24
  and so let's let's visit that for a few seconds.
• 28:26
  An article on Fortune titled Nearly All Bosses Are Accidental with No Formal Training, and Reach Church shows its legal.
• 28:36
  To one in three workers to quit.
• 28:39
  and this research is done by Chartered Management Institute, revealing that many of those promoted in management positions are all title and no training.
• 28:49
  Again, most none of this is the the manager's fault.
• 28:53
  These startling findings reveal that one in four people in the workplace have management responsibility, yet very few have been trained to do their job.
• 29:05
  the research found that incredible 82% of bosses are accidental managers, and what's even scarier is 25% of those are in senior leadership roles.
• 29:17
  That is negatively impacting employee morale, and a third of employees are.
• 29:22
  quitting their jobs.
• 29:24
  Employees who say their manager is ineffective.
• 29:28
  feel seriously less satisfied, valued, and motivated in their job than those who describe their managers as effective.
• 29:36
  Fifty percent of employees surveyed who are unhappy with their managers say they are planning to quit their job within the next 12 months.
• 29:43
  And finally, employees are not the only ones with low morale.
• 29:47
  Many of these accidental managers were high performing employees prior to being promoted without any leadership training.
• 29:55
  According to the research,
• 29:57
  Managers aren't confident in their own leadership abilities, with many struggling when it comes to dealing with the multiple issues facing their teams at work and in their homes.
• 30:07
  So that's all from the book, The Employee Experience Revolution.
• 30:11
  I don't know, Denise, 30 some years ago, and and you were you an accidental manager?
• 30:17
  I'm sure we probably discussed this.
• 30:19
  s in some respects I would say I was.
• 30:22
  I was decent at what I was doing.
• 30:25
  great at what you were doing, for what I remember, why I promoted you, or me and Stacey promoted you were great at what you were doing and you wanted it.
• 30:33
  And yeah, that's that was the two criteria.
• 30:35
  And so you got promoted, but I doubt I I don't remember back then what type of training we would have put you through or sent you to any leadership classes or anything like that.
• 30:45
  I mean maybe we did it in house, but I'm sure it wasn't sophisticated.
• 30:49
  mean, one, I was fortunate that you had the time then and you taught me a lot about the operations end of it.
• 30:56
  but then also if you remember, we would go to Neil Quality College quarterly.
• 31:00
  that's right.
• 31:01
  That's right.
• 31:01
  Okay.
• 31:01
  So I feel a little better about that.
• 31:03
  And and obviously it worked out 'cause you're still around and and today you're you're managing partner.
• 31:09
  but yeah, it and i i another art yeah.
• 31:14
  Um another great article I love to source is called The Soul of a Startup.
• 31:22
  by Harvard Business Review and this is an old article probably written in the early two thousands, but it's so true and and and you made me think of it, is you benefited from
• 31:33
  Me and Stacy being in the trenches every day, working with you, sharing our, you know, philosophies, vision every day with you.
• 31:42
  It would have been hard for you to stick around if, you know, you weren't drinking that.
• 31:47
  But now fast forward five, ten, fifteen years, and and like every company out there, people don't even know me, that work for me.
• 31:56
  they've maybe have met me, you know,
• 32:00
  Once maybe, and and so every company goes through that.
• 32:03
  It's not the same.
• 32:04
  And so for a Denise, another Denise to be organically that that that's not gonna happen.
• 32:11
  So you know, it's a whole nother discussion.
• 32:13
  How do you replicate because you wanna grow and if you grow the entrepreneur and and and visionary is not gonna be in the trenches with the the the future generations of employees
• 32:24
  like he or she was in the beginning.
• 32:26
  So
• 32:27
  So you have to make Denise's and Eric's and Kristen's and Sandy's b have that that passion that gets you know passed down.
• 32:37
  All right, what's one thing leaders can do this week to better support their managers, John?
• 32:42
  say less more often.
• 32:43
  don't chase shiny objects.
• 32:45
  I like to think if when I when I do
• 32:49
  you know, maybe annually, maybe twice a year.
• 32:52
  if when I'm invited to a company meeting at John Roberts Ba, which for our listeners I I I still own, but I don't have day-to-day responsibilities, if you will, but they'll bring me
• 33:02
  in for a company meeting.
• 33:03
  Mm my employees will if you tell I'm coming in to speak, they'll roll their eyes and say and they could th they'll tell you what I'm gonna say.
• 33:10
  And, you know
• 33:11
  Be obsessed with your vision, repeat it at nauseum, make it your manager's vision.
• 33:16
  make them the hero of the story, share the why, ask yourself whether you are overwhelming them with a billion different messages, you know, flavor of the month.
• 33:26
  program of the year management of a bestseller.
• 33:29
  Hey everyone read this book and that's our thing.
• 33:31
  wait, wait, you now we're on to another book.
• 33:33
  No, forget that book.
• 33:34
  You know, I want you to read this book.
• 33:35
  you know versus a few that support the vision and mission of your company and have KPIs and ROX dashboard that support and hold accountability.
• 33:44
  customer experience
• 33:46
  Does not become real because it was announced, listeners.
• 33:48
  It becomes real when it's coached, reinforced, recognized, measured, and protected.
• 33:54
  And in most organizations, that work happens through your managers.
• 33:58
  So if your customer experience initiative is losing momentum, the answer may not be another campaign or slogan or another training module for the front line.
• 34:07
  It might be that the managers need more clarity and more tools, more authority, and more of your support.
• 34:12
  Because your customer
• 34:13
  Experience strategy is only as strong as the leaders responsible for bringing it to life every day.
• 34:18
  John, thanks so much.
• 34:19
  And listeners, thanks for being here and enjoying another episode of the Customer Service Revolution podcast.
• 34:26
  If you found this episode was helpful, please share it with the leader, manager, or executive who's responsible for making customer experience more than a talking point.
• 34:35
  We'll see you next time.