Latest / The Backdrop Podcast / Episode 10 - Shams Moloo, Chief Development Officer at THA by Armonia

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Episode 10 - Shams Moloo, Chief Development Officer at THA by Armonia · The Backdrop Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the backdrop.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Today's guest has spent more than two decades helping organizations grow through strategy, transformation, and the power of strong partnerships.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Having built a career across Canada, the UAE, and the wider GCC, he's held senior leadership positions with organizations including Accenture, the Executive Council of Dubai, and Maidon Group, where he helped shape strategy across government real estate, hospitality, and major commercial portfolios.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Today, as Chief Development Officer of THA BYRAMONIA, he's led the company's commercial growth, strategic partnerships, and business development, helping position one of the region's leading staffing and events organizations for its next phase of expansion.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: This week, on the backdrop, we're joined by Chief Development Officer of THA Bioarmonia, Shums Malou.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Shams, the Chief Development Officer with uh THA by Armonia.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know that we are really centered on events on the show.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: THA is very much centered on the events industry and the workforce and and um and talent for the events industry.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think a lot of what we're gonna discuss right now and a lot of your background really is core strategy development, strategic development for for groups, and that's been you know your wheelhouse for a long time, your past.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for joining us and give us a little bit of a background on yourself.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a pleasure.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, background of myself, I've been in I've been in Dubai for the last 17 years.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um so early days, pre-financial crisis, pre-COVID.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I've sort of been witness to a lot of the transformation that has happened in in the region.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um haven't really been involved in the events world until about five years ago.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I worked uh for seven years with the executive council, thereafter was uh working with strategy at Maidan Group.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then began my journey with THA.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's been it's been an amazing journey.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's seen sort of a a shift in terms of the business.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen um obviously the arrival of Armonia as our primary shareholder.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and um and we see a lot of growth within a number of different segments.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it hasn't just been the events world.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we operate in the luxury retail industry, um, that's right.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Work with luxury brands.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the essence of what we do is really putting the right people in the right roles.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we understand the importance of of people within a number of different industries.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So finding the right people, um, building strong relationships with our client group um is what has contributed to our success.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I I know that you have spent the lion's share of your career um and coming from Canada, so nice to have another Canadian on the show.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Our first Canadian.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: First Canadian.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you spent an entire career helping companies shape and and perform better.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, what do you it could be this region or just in general?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: What what what kind of sort of what are the sort of the the lies they tell themselves where where you know where they feel that uh they're underperforming but not being honest about it?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think strategy is something that's um that's often a word that's misused, right?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we see, you know, when you when you go through people's websites or brochures or company profiles, you see these uh aspirational visions and missions, and and there's often a disconnect between what those visions say and what they're doing.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think, you know, if we're talking about, you know, what are the misconceptions or what are the lies that organizations tell them, I think it's really that a clear strategy exists.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and it's not to say that strategies don't evolve.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, strategies have to continuously evolve, but I think understanding an organization's vision is key because if you don't know what your vision is or what your mission is as a company, yeah, um, then it's very difficult to get everybody within your company aligned to that vision.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, it emphasizes the importance that people play within organizations.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's uh there's uh I don't know if you've read the book uh good to great, but you know, there's this concept of having the right people on the bus.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you need not have, you know, a very clearly defined destination.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: But as long as you have a direction, as long as you have a vision in mind, once you have those right people on the bus, then those people will help guide your strategy.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: It'll help guide the the path to take towards your vision and your mission.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would say from a strategic perspective, I couldn't sort of emphasize enough the importance for organizations to sort of understand what they want to achieve in five years, in ten years.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the details of how they will traverse the current times may change and has to change.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that vision, that mission needs to be propagated throughout that organization.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you talk to your sales team, whether you talk to your recruitment, your HR, your finance, your your operations teams, there should be a consistent understanding of where of where the company is heading so that they can too uh ensure that their work is driving towards that vision.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when you when you came into uh THA um and because of the way you think in your mindset, you come in, you observe, and you re- you you probably think either align with with with current uh uh heuristics and and procedures and policies, or I need to intervene.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: When you walk into a company, any company, whether it's minutes or days, what do you what would you do, what are the telltale signs that that that you need to intervene, or some things need to change?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or are there any things that sort of catch your yeah?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's a good question.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um for me, uh immediately one of the first sort of uh indicators of of how a company is running is by looking at the culture within that organization.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um you could sense, you know, what type of dynamic exists between leadership and the people who are working uh for the company?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um is there uh a clear link?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is there an open door policy?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a sense of camaraderie?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a sense of um working together and collaboration amongst the team?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or are people working in silos?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um is there are there forums where people get to voice their concerns or their ideas?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's typically a good indicator to see what type of organization is being set up.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you an example.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was doing some consulting work for a company here in the UAE, uh, and um and the company had two separate business lines.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay um the first business line that they set up was their original, their bread and butter, how they got started as a company.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the second business line was kind of uh an offshoot.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was a trial, it was uh filling an immediate gap in the market.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it just so happened that the office that the company had set up was different.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So they only had space for 20 people.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so they had to lease another office down the corridor, smaller, but just to accommodate the five people that were being set up for this new business setup.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: So when I walked into the office and I met with the with the owners of the company, they were struggling with that second company.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, well, you know, we're not sure this company is viable, we're not sure this this company has legs.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it sustainable?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Will it fulfill sort of you know the the cost that it's that it's bearing on us at the moment?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when I walked into that first office, so the original, the bread and butter company, amazing, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like people are talking, there's a vibe, they're laughing, they're you know, then the meeting room was always full, they were brainstorming, you could see mind maps being written on the board, uh, leadership there, beanbags, you know, it was just Google very nice vibe.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, when I walked into the second office, it was like, you know, somebody just died.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say, and and you know, if you came in as I did from the outside, you would say these are two very different companies, so no joke, almost polar polar opposites, yeah.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Where one the first was was buzzing and the second was lum, you know, it was like a rainy day, you know, in Canada.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so you could sense the culture of a single company, but just because of the way the the teams were set up, the the presence of leadership, the dynamic of the people involved was just vastly different.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so um that for me was a telltale sign that that you know we need to leverage the culture of the first setup into the second.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so what we did in in that particular company um was merge, yeah, was merge those two entities into one to see how we can bring about a bit more positivity, uh a more collaborative environment, a culture of sharing, a culture of of joint effort and joint objectives.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and that in and of itself sort of proved wonders.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So so it just goes to show, I mean, uh you can tell a company is not going to succeed just by looking at the culture and the dynamics and the leadership involvement and the collaborative nature of the teams.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I I think uh you you just answered the next question that I was gonna have for you because I know THA BYRAMONIA are very, very people-centric, you know, they've got a uh a strong, strong uh uh sort of spirit of of of uh you know people-centered philosophy.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Correct, yeah.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And at your level, you're the one that goes in at the highest level to meet with with your clients, you know, large organizations, or they're multinational or or or even or mid-sized groups, um, you know, a lot of these guys at that level that you're sitting in a boardroom with, they they they think about you know, quarterly performance and they're thinking about bottom line, they're thinking about margins and things like this.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do you convince them uh that you know it's the people that's gonna make all of the difference in in, you know, that the talent gradient, the workforce migration within the organization where they're where you're gonna choose people that can they're not just gonna plug a hole, but can actually um flourish within the organization and help solve problems.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean uh the the decision or the the assessment of people within an organization is is key.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you look at the PL of most companies, I mean, salaries are typically the highest uh or the most expensive line item on that PL.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so, you know, to talk about an organization and the importance of its people uh mutually exclusively doesn't make sense, right?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh the people are the organization.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's not people are not resources in an organization.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: They actually are the organization.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can sort of come to terms with understanding the importance of having the right people, um uh then it's it's it's key.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in in terms of determining sort of the trajectory that you're on.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, having the right people on the team uh is is not only not only a good cultural sort of norm uh within organizations, but it also um allows you to rely on that that workforce.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I see a lot of, I mean, the events industry is a is a pretty strange one, right?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the cyclical nature of the industry, because of, you know, you have uh a lull in the calendar, you know, in you know, typically April, May till the end of August, where you know, the the events personnel sort of disappear and go back home and wait for their calling.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit of a roller coaster.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit of a roller coaster.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so you And then of course with within that you've got a lot of character uh uh categories of specialties and expertise that are completely polar opposite of each other that have to connect and work together.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's just an industry that that is very different than your traditional uh business model.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so what I'm seeing within our business is is agencies um are really struggling to define who to maintain on payroll and who to bring in part-time, who to bring in from a seasonal perspective.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and finding that right balance of who to keep as part of your core um is something that a lot of agencies are sort of uh grappling with and and struggling with.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it's if from my perspective and from where I sit, the event agencies that that succeed in terms of finding that right balance are the ones that do well.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um the ones that sort of shrink down to two, three people um are the ones that struggle because they're for a number of reasons.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for one, they haven't sort of developed a DNA within their organization.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're too reliant, and you know, maybe this is contradictory to my own business at THA, but you know, uh freelancers are great to have when you need them, but your core team needs to be strong.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can't solely rely on freelancers because your DNA doesn't exist then.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have that fingerprint of the company.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I use the example of some of the very successful event agencies.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the reason they're successful is because their events can be identified without even knowing who pulled off that opening ceremony or who pulled off that drone show or who pulled off, you know, that that government summit.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can tell who did it by the quality.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: But create the blueprint creative because they've created the blueprint.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so what I'm seeing not only in the UAE but also in Saudi is there's these like mushrooms popping up of like two, three guys working in their basement and and just churning out proposal after proposal, and and in the event that they win, then they'll reach out to to a staffing agency and just build an entire team and or other freelancers that are French or other freelancers.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's it's it's a model.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, has it worked in the past?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it has worked, but does it create a sustainable business model?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's also fatiguing and there's a lot of time consumption to to try to get that one percent chance that it's gonna work out in in many in many cases.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, correct.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I I feel agencies are are in this in this period where, you know, given the current situation, um, they're having to decide, you know, how to get lean, how to contain costs, but still maintaining that DNA, still maintaining that maybe it's creative know-how, maybe it's technical competence, maybe it's, you know, their understanding of a specific business.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how do you keep that core people which defines who your company is, uh, while still being agile to contain costs?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's sort of what I feel the event agencies are going through at the moment.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you mentioned the Saudi and and of course the UAE and and the entire Middle East, where we are the, and I'd argue this with anyone that we are the event hub for the world.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for a small region, and we are a small region, especially population-wise, um, you know, China has an events industry.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure they have sort of their own internal events that are that are national, nationalized events, um, America, same thing.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: But for an international events, a hub or or uh or or or a place where we're second to none.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we are a different beast altogether.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: It in and on top of all of the different niche um uh you know, fragmented specialties and and and all the things we mentioned about the roller coaster.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: On top of that, we're in a we're in a region that that is um has undergone or has experienced a little bit of a pause with you know with some some uh geopolitical uh uh you know issues.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And with that, we've seen a lot of people uh come and go.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we've seen people come and they say, you know what, we're gonna go, whether they go to Saudi or whether they go to Qatar, whether they go into Europe or um you know, where like we're not I don't know if we're facing a talent shortage because I think everyone's coming back once things start kicking off again.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is it do you feel it's actually a leadership or or an organizational design problem that we're facing this shortage now?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you feel like we're gonna get everything's gonna come back and full on again uh for Q4, Q1.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've raised some good points.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um I agree with your with your analysis of of this region being sort of the the hub of events globally.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think for the longest time we've um we've relied on events in the region to sort of sustain the pool of of event expertise that exists.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh what I feel is happening, at least with THA Biarmonia, is that we are looking globally.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um we are saying, look, rather than once upon a time having the need to bring in Canadians, to bring in Americans, uh Australians, uh Brits into the region to fulfill the need of events in the region, now we've built, like we're we're almost acting like an incubator um for the events world where we have exposure to the best and greatest events.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, whether it's you know, conferences or exhibitions or music festivals, um, we've done it all in in this region.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the world is looking inwards to the region to say, we want to do what Dubai did, we want to do what Saudi did.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for the first time, um, I'm seeing the need for us to start exporting some of that talent, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and the freelancers that have been part of the region for for the last 10, 20, 30 years who have been working on events here are now getting opportunities to work in the US, to work in the UK.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have a lot of freelancers at THA who, because of their experience in Qatar, for example, at the World Cup, were approached and went to the US and went to Canada and went to Mexico to be part of the World Cup.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Share expertise.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so so the world is becoming a smaller place, uh, number one.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Number two is I feel the region is getting recognized for breeding a lot of these event experts um uh that can be exported to global events.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's one of the reasons at THA we're looking at a separate sort of business line aimed at global events.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because our our our philosophy is if we've spent the last 15 years.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Building this repository and these connections with the greatest and brightest minds from a freelance perspective, why are we limiting it to the GCC?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: We can actually export some of that talent.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: We can go to the, you know, the IOC for the Olympics to say, look, uh, we understand you're going to be delivering an Olympics in your country.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have the capability, we have the know-how, we have the experience.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we can support that.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're seeing more and more global events sort of coming to us, uh, looking at opportunities to leverage the capability that we've developed over the years to drive quality, to drive excellence, to drive performance.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not limited to, you know, the Olympics, but I mean, we're currently working in in Belgrade at the moment, you know, uh providing solutions for a number of different pavilions.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking to COP, we're talking to the Olympics, we're talking to the Commonwealth Games, we're, you know, so um I think we need to sort of take a different lens when it comes to, you know, uh the view that there's a talent shortage.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the expertise that freelancers are developing in the region, we need to broaden our horizon, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the events, the events industry will pick up, you know, in the region, it will pick up.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's in a lull.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: It has to, it has to.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I always tell people that events are a catalyst for driving tourism.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Every exact right, and we say this a lot.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not just it's it's tourism, it's collaboration, it's partnership, it's FDI, it's it's getting if you get events in in any form, concerts, festivals, summits, um, you know, large-scale bilateral meetings, government diplomatic meetings, they they they shine a light on the on the on the host.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and you know, one of the things that really impresses me about events in the region is that um they're very strategic.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, my background is in strategy, so I love it, you know, when when a client comes to comes to event agencies with an RFP with very clearly defined strategic objectives.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll give you an example of you know the work we did in in Expo 2025 last year in Osaka, um, which was, you know, we were we were awarded in a in a partnership with with another company to to develop the Saudi pavilion.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I say the Saudi pavilion, I'm talking about all the logistics, all the operations, all the events, the programming uh for the pavilion, but it was governed by such a strong strategy, yeah, meaning that you know, you can't just blow things up in the sky, right?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about wow moments, it's not about, you know, just showcasing how much money we have.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what it's about.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they were very clear.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: We want to drive foreign direct investment, we want to drive inbound tourism, we want to break stigma of women in the kingdom, we want to uh showcase the different terrains in Saudi.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they were very clear about what events needed to be, you know, and and that's a stark contrast to what events were 20 years ago.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: 20 years ago, I mean, it was about how many fireworks you could blow up in the sky, you know, and and which Guinness world record you wanted to break.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now all of a sudden, events are serving as a catalyst for showcasing the country, showcasing the stability, showcasing the the different sort of attractions of a city.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I know other guests on on your podcast have have talked about, you know, how you know cycling events as an example um are used to showcase some of these some of these uh locations and some of these.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: The efficiency of the infrastructure.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was uh the last one was Andy Fordham, who who was a specialist in endurance.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, he made a good point that if we didn't have the Dubai metro, and not just that, a very efficient, clean, you know, perfect metro system in in Dubai, how would you get 300,000 people to erase in and out?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, not many cities can boast that.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think I think the the back to your question.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um talent shortage, I don't think so.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think there will be events and there will be people to fill certain roles.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the region has always been uh a destination loved by by foreigners, by the locals um to visit, to work in.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's uh it's a a feather in a lot of people's caps when they work on an event, whether it's a desert festival or a music festival or a conference or an exhibition.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the scale out of of events that happen in the region are just so attractive to people that they'll there will be a demand to eat those.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I've seen, and and you made a good point about that, where about how it's we went from being showy and fireworks and all of that to actually meaning something, where we where where the substance has now overtaken the style is always going to be there, yeah, especially in this region.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the substance has really taken a front seat.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And now the the when when people are leaving an event and and the events that are created, these the new events that are taking place are actually designed to mean something that where there's there's actionable items afterwards.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's takeaways, like uh there, there's uh uh collaboration, or there is uh some uh at least some substance to create policy prescription.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And these are now becoming more important than just wow, you know?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: The wow is always going to be there, but again, it's now it it means something.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's really, really important.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I personally I I don't uh uh enjoy getting involved in maybe because I've been doing it for a while.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't I don't uh enjoy being involved in veneer uh events.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: My I I I really love when it means something and it means that from months afterwards it starts the ball rolling on on new the implementation or integration of something or or collaboration, or you're involved in something and Japan and Estonia decide they're gonna collaborate on some you know new solution for you know water sustainability or something like that, you know, just as an example.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's where we are now in the world.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and you know, you look at some of the events that have been curated and and conceptualized in the region, and and you know, take Gitex, for example.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was a a Dubai baby.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was IP that was homegrown.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you look now, I mean, they have Gitex in Morocco, they have Gitex in Kenya, they have, you know, so so they've started taking a lot of that expertise and and that know-how and that intellectual property, and they've started looking at it as a catalyst, not only for growing the the market in Dubai, yeah, but governments are looking at those events as a means of sparking tourism within their own jurisdictions, right?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, so you know, I I think events is almost uh there's a misconception about events that as you said, I mean, they're becoming strategic tools to drive agendas, to drive policies, to drive uh uh initiative within within other jurisdictions.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can continue sort of looking at if events as as strategic tools, then then I mean uh opportunities are endless, right?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: When I started working in my early 20s, um, I remember having this small job at this small shop somewhere, and the owner would come in, and he always said to me, and this has stuck with me forever, you can't just maintain a company.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: You always have to try to promote it, try to market it, try to find new ways of whether it's sort of some liminal exercise where you're trying to expand into different, but you never just sit and maintain.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about Gitex.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's sort of the Trixie low zeitgeist, you know.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've I've had the pleasure of working with Trixie many years ago when I created some programs for for Gigs early on.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some stick around, some don't, but uh in terms of the programs they maintain or they don't.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's it was incredible to watch it from the Trade Center perspective, seeing how they work and it it is a machine.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really one of those getting approvals to walk with me, you know, usually like you're on Wall Street or something, and it's really uh it's quite amazing to see.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I and back to the point about not just maintaining, about promoting and expanding and amplifying and and and trying to create a beast, and that's what what they've done.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and of course, that's what uh Trixie and her team have done, is they've they they saw the opportunity uh and and created something incredible.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's uh really amazing.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a great, great representation of Dubai and the UAE, uh, that they're that they're everywhere now.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and and you see similar models being adopted in in the kingdom.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you look at FII, for example, and yeah, that's become you know, Davos in the desert, you know, it's become a forum which which is attended by you know the senior most delegates from around the world.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and it started off as just an event, an idea, and it's turned into something nation builder exercise.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it is nation building, it is a forum where ideas are shared.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you you were mentioning this the other day that you know events need to be more than just wow elements, they need to be strategic.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're ubiquitous.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now now Agitex is everything.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And now I imagine, you know, you know, companies who are looking at, you know, uh driving additional investment, uh, you know, sparking tourism, you know, they can reach out to FII to say, look, we would love to host you in our country.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these were uh you you go back to the to the FIFA days or the Olympic days.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, why were these uh tournaments set up?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was not only to promote a sport, yeah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was to drive nation building.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and you look at, you know, some unsuccessful, of course, but but a lot of the the countries and and why they spend so much money sort of bidding for these high profile sporting tournaments is is not to showcase football.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's to it's to spark, you know, to put them on the map, to, to, to drive, you know, job creation, yes, to drive, you know, the agendas of countries as a whole.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if you look at events in that angle and and with that light, I mean, all of a sudden, events are very important, you know, and and given the geopolitical situation that we're in, you know, you have to start thinking about what are the levers that the government has today to regain confidence, to regain that tourism push, you know.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and events is probably, in my opinion, top of the list.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: So all of those freelancers, all of those event experts who are wondering, you know, will Dubai ever get back to what it was?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: It has to.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, events will be the catalyst for sparking a rebound.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: It will, it has to happen.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: There has to be um a push, and there will be a push from the senior most people in the leadership positions in the UAS.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: The center of the web.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because it not only creates, you know, we we said it creates opportunities for partnerships and collaborations that get on the map, but it also creates ideas for manufacturing, for, you know, the a lot of these ideas.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that uh many, many years ago, there was, you know, we there was the uh a lot of the the economic vision for for the government, whether it's Aba W or Dubai, a lot of this stemmed from a lot of what they saw from outside, Singapore and and and young countries like that, and how they're doing so well.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then they've implemented as pillars within uh, you know, the the vision of of the government here and how they're gonna go forward.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: So this is how these ideas that at stem from conversations being had at these at these events, at summits and conferences and all these, they they create new new plans.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that helps to grow the region, it helps to uh grow industry here, I suppose.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a there's a stark difference between you know the UAE and the K and KS, right?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the from a population perspective, you have what like uh 11 million versus 35 million.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the kingdom is in a bit of a different position because the reliance on tourism doesn't really exist.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, they can they can host events um and have enough people attend from within Saudi Arabia.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the UAE is a different story, yeah.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: The UAE relies on Turbo Bizarre.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so so to all of the people who come to me and say, Shams, look, you know, I'm debating whether to go to Saudi or whether to stay in the UAE given the situation.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always like, you know, you know, you both are good options because in Saudi, you don't have this reliance on tourism.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: There will be a lot of people.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there is this push to create sort of uh uh an environment of expat, you know, and and ease of entry and ease of doing business in Saudi, as as we've seen over the last five years.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, the UAE, I think will see a massive uh push when it comes to events.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's just a matter of time before we see um before we see the the event season really kick off.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it'll be soon.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's gonna be I think it's gonna be overwhelming.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's gonna be psychic.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we we talk about government, and I know that that we the THA and yourself.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've worked in private sector and public sector.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've had to um attempt to develop and transform different uh, you know, public sector thinking and private sector thinking.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Which one, I know they're both completely different, but which one did you find difficult more difficult to get to the table to try to uh adapt to the ideas that you've had?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Very different.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um in the public sector, um things are slow, slow in the sense they're slow to start.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but in the public sector, while they are slow to start because of all of the buy-in, because of the lobbying, because of the the process of taking things from policy through to legislation, it takes time.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the advantage of of working in the public sector is that despite it being a slow start, there's institutional catalysts that will see it through to completion, if that makes sense.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's quite the opposite of the private sector.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: In the private sector, it's very easy to start.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody wants to wants to start working in a different direction.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: People want to to spark change.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's a need to do this, let's quickly go into that.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: But sustaining that urgency, sustaining or continuing that that effort long term is more difficult.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like uh a complete opposite.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Public sector is slow to start, but you have institutional uh drivers in play to continue that momentum.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the private sector, I would say, is quick to start, but it's harder to sustain because things change and and you have to be willing to adapt and you have to be agile and you have to sort of go after the need of the hour, and you have to go and fix the or put out the fire that that started in the in the back office, and um so very different.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, from my experience when I worked in the public sector, it was very difficult to see the outcomes because the initiatives that we started in the public sector were so strategic.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll give you an example.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: When we developed the Dubai Plan 2021, we looked at um strategic objectives, okay?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Things like increasing the happiness of Dubai citizens or easing traffic in Dubai, or uh that's not something you can just like easily measure or or work on a presentation and roll it out and see it sort of uh you know completed in in a week or two weeks.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: These are long-term goals, right?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, so the the gratification of the work that you're doing wasn't immediate.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas in the private sector, and and you know, the work I did at Maidan was uh was semi-government, but it gave me a flavor of, you know, almost seeing a bit of that gratification.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we would work on the conceptual or the schematic design of a hotel.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, six months later, you'd see a structure.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and for the first time, I was like, you know what?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was involved in that because I can see it.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's tangible, it's bricks and mortar.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can see the building go up.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really the what I think is the major difference between working in the public and private is that public, it takes time to see the fruits of your labor.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in the private, you can see it pretty quickly.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, both are gratifying.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's just one requires a bit more patience than me.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I want to ask you one last question is that and that question is um what what do you think if you asked yourself in 10 years, if somebody asked you in 10 years, what would be the most proud part of your career, like of the change that you've created in your career?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be something that you're hoping will happen, or or something you're striving for that you are determined to happen, or something that you've you can't beat.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's already happened.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I would say um the change that I the change that I made in the people I worked with.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I see a lot of people who are very task driven, who are very um, you know, they look at their job description and they say, okay, this is what I do.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh what I always try to do with everybody I work with is look at look at a an organization or look at a role as as solutions-oriented.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I, you know, I I oversee the entire business development function at THA and and and head sales across the region and globally.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um But one of my one of my approaches and strategies of of success is is looking at finding solutions for clients rather than saying, what sort of staffing do you need?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I try to impart that mentality or that approach with my sales team, whether it's in the UAE, whether it's in Saudi, um, that you have to go to clients um looking to solve their problems, right?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or looking to come up with a solution that will help them.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I always tell people, you know, there's there's three things that will make you a good salesperson.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: One is your clients have to like you.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if they don't like you, I don't think they're gonna give you work.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you can geniality is you have to you have to figure out how to be likable.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the second is you have to become an expert in your field.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because if your client thinks that they are smarter than you within a staffing mindset, then they don't need you, right?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if they have more freelancers, if they have a larger network than you, if they know operational planning, or if they know um uh more about staffing than a staffing agency, then there's no need for you.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the third is what I call the reciprocity norm.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what that refers to is look for ways to help your client.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Put aside the financial benefit, put aside a quote, put aside an invoice, put aside all of that.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: If Michael is facing a problem and I can help solve his problem, whether it's through staffing or any other means, if Michael is struggling to get in to a particular client group in Saudi Arabia, and I have a very good network in Saudi Arabia, and if I can help Michael put him in front of the right people at this ministry in Saudi, that's a good thing.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I encourage my team always to look for ways to help.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because when it also comes with them trusting you, correct.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, people use the word partnership loosely, I feel in the region.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we want a partnership agreement, we're partners, you know.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I try to impart with my team is that, you know, live by that value, that live by the value that you truly want to be solutions-driven.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: You want to help Michael get into this client group, you know, and if you can do that, you will build a relationship.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that relationship will bear fruit, or it might not bear fruit.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I know that when Michael is working with the Ministry of Sport in Saudi Arabia and he's now traversed up the ladder and he's now a project director, and he now needs staffing solutions, there's a good chance that Michael is gonna give me a call because we are working together.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: We are partners.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so to your question, I think 10 years from now, I hope I can look back and see some of those uh, you know, nuggets of wisdom that hopefully have stuck that would make me proud.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: And put into practice for putting better success.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because you know, that's not numbers, that's not, you know, that that compounds, you know, because hopefully they too.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's and and everybody talks about legacy, and everybody talks about, you know, what do you want to be known for?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for me, it's about the change that I brought in people that they then impart on the next generation of the worker.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a bad goal.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good path to take.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, we'll see that happen.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at the airing of this episode, we'll be, I think, a day or two away from Mies.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Middle East uh event show where you are going to be one of the speakers.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can do stage.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we wish you the best of luck with that.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, we want to thank you so much, Shams, for being part of this.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really great conversation.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed it.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we hope that uh we can have you back another time.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um three Q4 for THE BYRMONIA.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Hosted by Michael McClennan and produced by Dan Powell, the backdrop was recorded live from One Central in Dubai.