Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Warwick Schiller on Attunement, Connection, and Trust in Horsemanship | EP 24 Equine Assisted World

Transcript

Warwick Schiller on Attunement, Connection, and Trust in Horsemanship | EP 24 Equine Assisted World · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
• 0:05
  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
• 0:12
  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
• 0:24
  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
• 0:27
  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
• 0:31
  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
• 0:35
  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
• 0:41
  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
• 0:44
  Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:46
  I've got a treat for you.
• 0:48
  I've got Warwick Schiller.
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  His Warwick ness is here and the reason I asked him to come on this
• 0:56
  podcast is because obviously Warwick does many things and does many things
• 1:02
  well, but what I think a lot of people really find practically useful, well
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  actually this, people find many things practically useful about what he does,
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  but what keeps coming up for me is this word attunement, and how attunement,
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  being able to attune to your horse, to your client, to the environment,
• 1:31
  to what's going on in the sensory system, to perhaps things that are
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  less rational than those things.
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  It seems that the people that do this and really do this
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  consciously achieve great success.
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  And I've just seen this time and time again, within the horse
• 1:50
  boy work within the dressage work that I do within all of it.
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  Anyone who's doing Warwick's Attunement stuff seems to be able to
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  pretty much a level of success that I'd say is a.
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  Above the norm.
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  So I wanted I think why we need to talk about this on Equine Assisted World
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  because it's just something that People need to be more aware of about how to
• 2:16
  do but they don't want me banging on about it They want the man himself.
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  So here he is Warwick.
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  Welcome
• 2:25
  Warwick Schiller: Thanks for having me, Rupert.
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  I'm glad you quantified your, your statement before when you said, yeah, that
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  the one thing that Warwick does that's kind of useful is this achievement stuff.
• 2:37
  No,
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  Rupert Isaacson: that's not fair.
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  You know, he also, you know, lives next to a brewery and
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  will take you there sometimes.
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  I mean, it's Yeah, I will.
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  Warwick Schiller: And I live across the road from a winery too, so yeah, I do have
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  other, I do have other good qualities.
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  Rupert Isaacson: But this attunement thing is something which I think
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  is a word that people, when they hear it, they go, Oh yeah!
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  But then when one actually thinks about it, well what does it actually mean?
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  And what does it mean in terms of,
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  we'll start with horses, but then I want to move to people.
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  And then I want to bring it back to horses and people.
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  All right, Attunement Warwick, what is it?
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  Why do we need to be aware of it?
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  Warwick Schiller: Well, let's, maybe let's talk about, you know, it's
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  interesting you mentioned, you know, you want to start with the horses, but
• 3:26
  it's also for people and, you know, for me, a lot of the stuff that I have
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  found that I've changed over the years with horses has been human psychology
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  stuff that I've used with the horses, cause you know, the horses are mammals
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  the same as we are, we have a mammalian nervous system, all that sort of thing.
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  But for me, I first heard the word attunement in a book by, I
• 3:49
  think he's a UCLA professor of psychology named Daniel Siegel.
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  His definition of attunement was the sense of being seen and being heard.
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  And then later on, I had a guest on the podcast Sarah Schlotter.
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  You've met Sarah, you met her at the first summit.
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  And she kind of expanded upon it and she said that attunement is the
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  sense of Being seen, being heard, feeling felt and getting gotten.
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  And so it's, it's really like in the human sense, I really believe it's, it's,
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  it's getting someone on a level that most people don't get them on.
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  Like they fully, you know, when someone tunes with you, they,
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  they get you on a deep level.
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  Like, it's almost like you've, I had a conversation with someone.
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  And our last summit actually when the presenters one night and I said
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  to her afterwards, you know what?
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  I don't think I've ever felt that scene before like she got me On a level that you
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  know I don't think i'd ever met anybody who got me on that on that level like
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  basically understood where I came from You know one of the i've suffered migraines
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  all my life and we were talking about different things and I said to her We're
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  talking about traumas and then I said, you know, I've suffered migraines all my life.
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  And she looked at me, she nodded and she says, of course you have.
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  Like she knew where that came from.
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  You know what I mean?
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  And so, yeah.
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  And it just gave me this real sense of maybe like emotional safety around her.
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  Anyway, that's the, that's the human side of the achievement thing.
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  But let's talk about.
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  The horse side of the attunement thing, and you know, this attunement
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  is really about connection with horses, but for me, it's not about
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  the connection for connection's sake.
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  It's not that I want to connect with the horses.
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  I think a lot of people really get excited about the connection stuff because it
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  gives them the warm and fuzzies and my horse will love me or whatever, but
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  really the connection of the attunement stuff is about the horse feeling safe.
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  Safe with us, safe in the environment, and I think the reason this stuff works
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  so well with horses is because you don't have to be a terribly good horse trainer
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  to, or rider, to train or ride a horse that feels safe in your presence, with
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  your decisions, and in the environment.
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  Most, most people that have problems with horses are dealing
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  with a dysregulated nervous system.
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  Problem that turns into rearing, backing, bolting, pulling
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  back, running over, whatever.
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  All those things for me, they're a fallout of not feeling safe.
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  And I might go into explain why I feel attunement makes horses feel safe.
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  And, you know, this is all conjecture.
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  This is my take on the whole thing, but I feel what the, the, the, you
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  know, if you go into a pasture with a group of horses and you catch
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  one, you take him away from there.
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  Sometimes people will take their horse out of a pasture and now he starts running
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  around in circles, screaming his head off, wanting to go back to his friends.
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  And I feel, you know, most people when that.
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  They mentioned that I'll say, well, why does he want to go back to his friends?
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  And they go, well, he likes hanging with me.
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  He feels safe there.
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  And I'm like, yes, but what, what is the sense of safety he
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  gets from being with his friends?
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  And I don't feel the sense of safety gets from being his friends with
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  his friends is a physical safety.
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  It's not like two of his friends go to kickboxing classes on Wednesday nights.
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  And so if the saber to tiger shows up, they're going to drop, kick
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  him in the head sort of thing.
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  What I feel.
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  It that horse, the sense of safety horses get from other horses
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  is there's a shared awareness.
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  So I don't have to stand and look 360 degrees for, you know, I don't have to
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  be alert and look 360 degrees for danger.
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  I could have my head down grazing.
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  And if you think about.
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  Let's say there's five horses, let's go with four horses in, you know,
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  like out in a pasture and let's call them North, South, East and West.
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  And they're grazing and if the horse on the North side notices something
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  while he's grazing, his posture will change and his energy will change.
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  So his head will pop up and his body will get a little more tense than it was.
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  And the other horses will feel that energetic change and see that postural
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  change and they'll be alerted to the fact there may be some danger.
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  And so their heads will pop up and they're like, what are you looking at?
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  And then he, you know, he.
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  Summarizes the situation or he analyzes the situation.
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  You kind of guess I'm okay and he goes back to relax and they
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  go Okay, we're all good again.
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  So I feel like this is conversation that goes on both posturally and
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  energetically in a herd of horses and
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  You know, it's, it's the ability for every other horse in the herd
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  to recognize danger and communicate that that makes the others feel safe.
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  And this is where it comes down to like, you know, what I've learned from
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  you about hunter gatherers I've had.
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  Several different people who really get horses explain that they're
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  just like hunter gatherers, you know, everybody has a job to do.
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  Everybody has a role to play and the one that plays that role is the
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  best one in the herd for that role.
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  And this is where we get into thinking that there is you
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  know, there's a hierarchy.
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  There's a number one, a number two, a number three, which is not, that's,
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  you know, that's really been debunked, but You know, one of the things that
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  one of those people I'm talking about has explained to me is that horses
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  are always Testing other horses with positions in the herd and they're always
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  testing them to make sure that they are still the best Horse for that job.
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  So it's a it's a it's a care for versus a power over dynamic That horse is in
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  that that leadership role, whatever it might be might be sentinel might be
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  whatever They're in that role because they have the attributes needed for that
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  role and the other the other members of the herd keep Testing them to see if
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  they're still the best horse for that role And but like I said, they're in
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  that role out of a care for you know They they are in that role for the good of
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  everybody not for the good of themselves.
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  It's not a power over role and You know, so being aware, just being aware of
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  things, I think is, is the, the thing that other horses are looking for.
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  So when you attune with a horse, when you work on this attunement stuff, which
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  you have to be very present to do, and you have to be in the moment all the
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  time and communicating your awareness of being in the moment all the time.
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  I think that's what makes them feel safe when you, you know,
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  when, and I've had experiences over the years at clinics that like.
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  This is the Holy Grail right here.
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  And I guess I'll probably tell you the first one because this is where I
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  really started to understand it, but I'd really started thinking about things
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  a bit differently and maybe working on something that was back then, what,
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  the beginnings of what was attunement, but I had no idea what I was doing, but
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  I was, I was at a clinic in Texas and this lady had a Mustang at this clinic
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  who he has a random bolting issue.
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  He's at nine years old.
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  He's been out of the wild for six years.
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  He's been ridden for six years, but he has this random bolting issue.
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  And it's usually not the same thing twice that causes it and something
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  that bothers him One time that makes him bolt doesn't make him bolt the
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  next time and you know the lady and the trainer really at the wit's end.
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  And this was a three day clinic and I don't know why, cause I usually do two day
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  clinics, but this is a three day clinic.
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  And the first day of the clinic, I don't even remember this horse.
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  And at the time I would have a morning group and afternoon group.
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  So I have 12 people in my clinics and I used to have a morning group and afternoon
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  group, and she was in the morning group.
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  I don't remember this horse the first day of the clinic.
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  The second day of the clinic, and she did some groundwork the first
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  day, but nothing amazing happened.
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  The second day of the clinic, she was doing some groundwork with a horse
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  and she went to walk down beside him.
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  So from in front of him, down the side of him, and she's going to ask him to just
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  yield his hind end over, just step across his hind legs, just step over behind.
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  And when she went to do that, she went to walk down beside him, he
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  turned his head and blocked her.
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  And she said to me, Hey, and he did it repeatedly.
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  And she said to me.
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  Hey, this horse keeps blocking me with his head.
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  What should I do?
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  And I said, Oh, well, let me try.
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  So I stood in front of him and I went to walk down beside him.
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  And as I stepped to go around his head, he turned his head and he blocked me.
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  So it was almost like he was trying to keep me in his right eye.
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  Like I was in front of him, I'm in both eyes.
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  And as I went to walk down that side, it was almost like he was trying
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  to keep me out of his left eye.
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  And in the past, I would have just reached my hand under his jaw.
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  Moved his head over and then proceeded down that side, but there was
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  something I don't know There was some sort of intuition said don't do that
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  Actually step back and acknowledge the fact that he turned his head.
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  So he said no in a very subtle way.
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  I could have walked around his head very easily.
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  He wouldn't have lunged at me or shoulder charged me or anything.
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  He would have just let me walk around him.
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  But I didn't.
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  I stepped backwards, back to where I'd came from.
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  And his head straightened up.
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  And then I waited for him to show some sign of relaxing a little bit more.
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  I don't know.
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  It's not something as big as a lick and a chew.
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  Maybe his ears started to move a bit.
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  Maybe his eyes started to blink.
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  Cause as you'd know, you know, when the horses get tense, the
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  rate of blinking slows down.
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  So maybe he started to blink a bit more.
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  I'm not sure.
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  Then I tried it again.
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  I went to step over there and he blocked me with his head.
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  So I stepped back again and this went on for five or 10 minutes.
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  I had no idea what I was doing.
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  But after five or 10 minutes, I can, I know he now doesn't block me up.
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  So I go to walk down his side.
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  He doesn't block me up and he's been ridden for six years.
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  So I figured you can settle him, which means you can touch him.
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  And so I just thought, I'm just going to put my hand on his withering
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  and gauge his reaction to that.
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  And I was closely watching his head and his ears and his eyes.
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  And as I went to put my hand on his wither.
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  His head raised up, just half an inch.
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  He just tensed very slightly.
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  And so, oops, I took my hand away.
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  I said, sorry.
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  And I waited till he relaxed again, I tried it again, and I probably
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  did that for five or ten minutes.
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  I have no idea why I was doing it, but I did it.
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  And then pretty soon I can put my hand on his wither and he doesn't, he
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  doesn't get the slightest bit tense.
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  And so then I said to her, now I'm going to ask him to step over behind, ask him
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  to step over behind, he's been trained perfectly well to do it, and he just
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  yielded his hind end over, and I said to her, you know what, you've been riding
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  for six years, and that's a very basic exercise, I think he's probably sick of
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  you drilling him on it, I think that's why he, why he was blocking your way out.
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  And I'll prove it to you.
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  So I'm going to go back to the front of him, and then if he lets
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  me come down his side, I'm going to ask him to step over behind.
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  Then I'm going to go back to the front, and if he lets me come down his side,
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  I'm going to ask him to step over behind.
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  I'm going to keep doing it, and after three or four of those, he's
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  going to go, Nah, I'm sick of you and your stepping over behind.
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  So I went back to the front, walked down the side, he let me,
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  I asked him to step over behind.
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  I did it 10 times in a row, and he didn't block me out, he let me do it.
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  So now my hypothesis is blown out of the water.
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  I'm like, I have no idea why he was blocking us out because he's
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  not now and I can't break it.
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  So yeah, no idea.
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  So I handed him back to her and I said, just, she said, what do you want me to do?
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  And I said, I'll just hang out with him.
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  So she kind of stood there with him and I went and helped somebody else.
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  And about 10 minutes later.
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  There was this collective this gasp from everybody there, and I turned
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  and looked, and this horse has buckled at the knees, dropped to his belly
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  on the ground, and started, like, snoring little dust clouds in the dirt.
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  And then he lay on his side, had a big ol roll, rolled over both ways,
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  stood up, had a big ol shake, and then Down he went again, and fell
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  asleep, sound asleep, and he slept till lunchtime, and that was probably
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  ten o'clock in the morning by then.
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  So he slept for two hours, with loudspeakers going off, and whatever.
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  Other horses riding around, and I said, does he normally lay down that much?
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  And she said, I've seen him lay down once in six years.
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  And I was like, wow, anyway, so then we had, she had to wake him up when
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  that group was done at lunchtime for the other group to come in.
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  So the next morning she brings him back in the last day of the clinic.
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  And she said, what do you want me to do with him?
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  And I said, stand there with him.
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  Let's just see what happens.
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  She stood there with him about 20 minutes later, boom, down he went,
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  laid flat on his side for four hours.
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  Didn't get up for four hours.
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  Slept the whole time.
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  We actually had to wake him up to get him out of the arena again.
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  And she went home from that clinic and she said he slept for a week.
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  And so I knew, I knew something had happened.
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  I didn't know why it had happened.
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  But I knew something, I could, this horse has laid down once in six years
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  and now he's laying in an arena at a clinic with a crowd and loudspeakers.
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  So I came home and I, I started looking up the internet, sleeping habits of
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  horses, because I knew horses can sleep standing up or laying down, but what I
• 17:02
  didn't realize at the time is they need to lay down to get REM sleep, okay?
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  Standing up is just a light dozing, but laying down, they have to, they have
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  to lay down to get this deep, the deep restorative sleep that we all need.
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  And we know in humans, if they don't get enough REM sleep, they're
• 17:26
  either irritable or anxious.
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  Thanks.
• 17:30
  What would, what might cause random bolting in a horse
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  is just unresolved anxiety.
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  Anyway, it turned out he never bolted once after that clinic.
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  And, you know, first it was six months out.
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  She said he didn't bolt.
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  Then a year out, she said he hadn't bolted.
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  Then two years out and he just passed away four or five months
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  ago, maybe middle of last year.
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  And it had been five years, I think, since that clinic that he hadn't bolted.
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  So I knew something had happened then.
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  And.
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  After reading the sleep thing, I realized, okay, in order for a horse to lay down
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  and sleep prone, they have to feel safe.
• 18:08
  There has to be another horse standing guard and aware.
• 18:15
  And so if you think about what happened when he turned his head, when I said, I
• 18:20
  notice you turn your head and I notice you're slightly concerned and I'm going
• 18:24
  to step back and give you some time.
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  That's that attunement thing.
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  You know, I basically said, yeah, I get what you're telling me.
• 18:31
  And that made him feel safe enough to lay down and have a sleep.
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  And I had a, you know, you've spent lots of time in Africa.
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  I had an experience a few years before that in Kenya that I I'd
• 18:42
  witnessed that was still in the back of my mind that really.
• 18:47
  Added to that too.
• 18:48
  And I, I stand at this place in Kenya that was surrounded by 3000 acres of, of
• 18:55
  undeveloped land, and there was herds of zebras there.
• 18:57
  So I'd be working with horses in the arena, and you could
• 19:00
  see this herd of zebras.
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  And in the morning, I'd get up and out of the house and go for a walk
• 19:04
  and look at the zebras and stuff.
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  And I noticed that, you know, as you're walking towards, and they're, all
• 19:09
  their heads are down there grazing.
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  And when one notices you, his head pops up and then they all, they all stop grazing.
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  Their heads pop up.
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  And if you just stand there for a while, they'll.
• 19:19
  Go back down to grazing, but what I also noticed too was that
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  Certain times of the day, some of those zebra would lay down and sleep, and the
• 19:27
  other ones would kind of stand in a big rough circle around them, and no one
• 19:31
  grazed while the zebras were sleeping.
• 19:34
  They were standing, they weren't, they were aware, but they weren't alert.
• 19:38
  They didn't have alert postures, they had relaxed postures, but we Aware, and
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  I realized that those ones in the middle who are sleeping totally comfortable
• 19:50
  with the security of the awareness of the ones who were standing around.
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  And so I'd, I'd kind of witnessed this without even realizing what I was seeing.
• 19:59
  And then later on, when that horse had that sleep at the clinic,
• 20:02
  I realized that's what I did.
• 20:05
  I told him that I'm a two legged, who's aware.
• 20:07
  I noticed little things and I don't have an agenda.
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  Like when he turned his head, I didn't say, I noticed you turn your head, but
• 20:13
  I want to walk down the side of you.
• 20:15
  So I'm either going to push your head out of the way or walk around it.
• 20:18
  I stepped back and said, Hey, I, not only do I see that, but
• 20:22
  I get that you're saying no.
• 20:26
  I don't understand why you're saying no, but I know that you're saying no.
• 20:30
  And so I'm going to wait here till you feel better about.
• 20:33
  Me approaching you again.
• 20:35
  So that was the start of the whole, that was the start of the whole thing
• 20:39
  but I really feel that for me the attunement stuff is about making them
• 20:45
  feel safe and the making them feel safe around us basically takes away
• 20:54
  all the problem behaviors a lot of people, you know, deal with with horses.
• 20:58
  Rupert Isaacson: No, I would agree and it's funny as you're, as you're telling me
• 21:01
  the story, I'm looking at my screensaver, which is a photograph I took in Namibia
• 21:07
  a year and a half ago, and it's of two young lions playing, roughhousing, and
• 21:15
  in the middle ground behind them, there's some sentinel zebra watching them.
• 21:23
  Behind those sentinel zebra are some other zebras who are grazing quite
• 21:27
  contentedly, even though these lions are Full of action and their mums, by
• 21:33
  the way, that, that, that they're big enough to participate in the hunt.
• 21:36
  They're not cub cubs, but they're maybe, you know, three quarters
• 21:40
  grown and their mums are also there and would rush in to make a kill if
• 21:44
  there was something opportunistic.
• 21:45
  And then behind the zebras are a bunch of springbok who are completely unconcerned
• 21:50
  because the zebra are looking out for it.
• 21:53
  And my horses I mean, I'm lucky I can keep them all in a herd.
• 21:58
  So, and they're very established, long established herd.
• 22:00
  So that they spend the night in a large area where they can come in under shelter
• 22:07
  get out of the rain get out of The wind it's winter in Germany right now, but
• 22:10
  then in the mid in the day, they'll just take themselves out into the field
• 22:13
  and The first thing that will happen Is they'll take shifts to lie down and
• 22:20
  sleep because they probably won't have slept like that in the nighttime because
• 22:25
  Maybe they're alert for predators.
• 22:27
  Maybe there's you know, and there's all sorts of stuff around them There's
• 22:30
  wild boar that come around and this and that but they will always take
• 22:33
  that opportunity and it's funny and I've Instinctively learned I don't
• 22:38
  mess with them when they're doing that.
• 22:40
  So sometimes if I need to work that horse Well, I'm not working that
• 22:44
  horse if he's lying down and sleeping And it's a really interesting thing.
• 22:48
  It's it's really instinctive No more than I would wake a friend.
• 22:54
  Unless there was some really, really pressing reason.
• 22:59
  But just because I want to put a saddle on his back, well I can wait.
• 23:02
  However, there's a couple of questions that come up with
• 23:04
  that story that you told.
• 23:06
  I think the one really natural question is, it's not It's related
• 23:12
  to the attunement, but it's,
• 23:15
  it's, why do you think the horse was blocking it?
• 23:19
  Why was there a no in that particular moment?
• 23:21
  What's your surmise?
• 23:23
  Why do you think it was important to him to say no to that thing?
• 23:28
  Because it's, it was an interesting and rather perplexing
• 23:31
  thing for him to say no to.
• 23:32
  You know, there's other more obvious things a horse might say no to.
• 23:35
  That one seems interesting to me.
• 23:38
  What, what do you think was going on there?
• 23:41
  Warwick Schiller: Well, it was a very subtle no because it would
• 23:44
  have taken two steps just to walk around it You know, he's just
• 23:47
  turned it wasn't even 45 degrees.
• 23:50
  Rupert Isaacson: You think it was just an desire to Field test some form of self
• 23:56
  expression and just see if he could I
• 23:59
  Warwick Schiller: well I
• 23:59
  Rupert Isaacson: do think more fuzzing.
• 24:01
  Warwick Schiller: I don't know That's not I don't think that's
• 24:03
  anthropomorphizing at all.
• 24:05
  So let me tell you a story.
• 24:06
  I've got a horse named Bundy I think you met Bundy when you were
• 24:09
  here Bundy's quite orally fixated.
• 24:13
  You know, he's a, he's a cribber cause he broke a, broke a bone in his foot
• 24:16
  when he was young and had to spend three months in a stall in a cast.
• 24:20
  He couldn't even be hand walked.
• 24:21
  And so he's very busy minded.
• 24:22
  So he, he learned to crib when he was there and he lives, you know, he's lived
• 24:26
  in a pasture with other horses for about 10 years and still, still crib, still wind
• 24:30
  sucks, you know, but for about six years.
• 24:35
  Every time I went to put the halter on him, he would grab the nose band
• 24:39
  of his mouth and chew on, and I would get, let me have that thing.
• 24:43
  And I just gently pulled it out of his mouth and then put it on.
• 24:46
  But then when I started thinking about things differently
• 24:49
  and, and horses testing us,
• 24:55
  I thought I'm going to try and experiment.
• 24:56
  So I went to catch him one day, I went to put the halter on and he got the nose band
• 24:59
  in his mouth and I just let him chew it.
• 25:01
  I just
• 25:01
  Warwick Schiller: stood there and I just let him chew it.
• 25:03
  Then he chewed it for a couple of minutes and then spat it out and when I put the
• 25:06
  holter on he didn't try to chew it again.
• 25:08
  Okay, so the next day, same thing, I let him chew it.
• 25:12
  The next day, same thing, I let him chew it.
• 25:14
  Anyway, he did that for four days in a row and I waited for as long as he felt
• 25:20
  the need to chew on that nose bend.
• 25:23
  The fifth day I went to put it on.
• 25:25
  He didn't do it the sixth day.
• 25:26
  The seventh day didn't do it for another two years.
• 25:30
  And I, I really feel observing things like that.
• 25:34
  It's like, I think these horses are always testing us not to be testy, but like,
• 25:41
  who are you, are you the obedient guy?
• 25:43
  Are you the patient guy?
• 25:44
  I, I don't care who you are.
• 25:47
  I would just like to know who you are because then I can base
• 25:51
  my interactions on, on, on that.
• 25:55
  And so, but I feel like that's what that horse was doing when he
• 25:58
  turned his head, like, I'm going to just do the little test thing.
• 26:01
  And if you just walk around me and you know, I think it's, are
• 26:03
  you paying attention or not?
• 26:05
  Are you how aware are you?
• 26:07
  I really feel like a lot of things horses do asking questions of.
• 26:11
  How aware are you?
• 26:13
  Because they're looking for, you know, they're looking for, you know,
• 26:18
  I think the nervous system's looking for homeostasis and they want to
• 26:22
  know, are you aware enough for me to completely relax around you?
• 26:25
  You were talking about your screensaver
• 26:27
  Rupert Isaacson: there.
• 26:28
  Warwick Schiller: A really interesting happened, thing happened
• 26:30
  at that same place in Kenya.
• 26:32
  There was this male wildebeest who lived kind of outside the arena there.
• 26:35
  And I looked up wildebeest after I got back there and
• 26:41
  and when I got back from there, Cause I want to know more about him.
• 26:43
  And I realized that the male wildebeest territorial.
• 26:47
  And so if they can, you know, they'll occupy a certain piece of land.
• 26:51
  And if that land's got good water and food, the cows will come
• 26:55
  to him and they will, you know, they'll fight over boundaries.
• 26:57
  Anyway, so this guy, he's solitary.
• 27:00
  And every time I see him laying down, he was laying up, laying down up
• 27:03
  against like some camel thorn bushes or something, something protective.
• 27:07
  So he only had to look in one direction.
• 27:09
  I noticed that every day, but then one day the zebra were all up closer to the
• 27:15
  house there and he ended up in their big circle while some were sleeping.
• 27:21
  And it's the only time I saw him lay down where his back wasn't
• 27:24
  up against something protective.
• 27:26
  There was no camel thorn bush or whatever it was he was laying up against.
• 27:30
  And I'm like, Oh, he's using the, he doesn't need to, to lay up
• 27:35
  against something to have a little nap because the zebra are going to.
• 27:40
  Be the sentinels.
• 27:41
  And you just said those springboks in the background were grazing away
• 27:44
  because there's, it's something
• 27:47
  Rupert Isaacson: I've often wondered with the way we keep horses these
• 27:50
  days, you know, when I was growing up we almost always mixed cows and sheep
• 27:54
  with horses and we did it largely actually for pasturage reasons.
• 27:58
  It makes your pastures better, blah, blah, blah.
• 28:00
  And it's also good.
• 28:02
  The horse is just no other animals, but I've noticed that that has
• 28:08
  gradually disappeared as the norm.
• 28:10
  You see it.
• 28:11
  Sometimes, now, but you used to see, it used to be just the norm, and I do
• 28:17
  wonder if when horses are doing that kind of thing with us, there is a
• 28:22
  sort of automatic cross species thing.
• 28:25
  That is built into pretty much all those big herbivores that they're
• 28:29
  supposed to hang out together They're supposed to Go a bit cross species.
• 28:35
  So for example in you know, I've got Lusitano horses and in their wild
• 28:40
  state They would have been in big herds with lots of wild cattle in those big
• 28:46
  marshlands where the Targus River or the Guadalquivir River come out to the
• 28:51
  sea and they would have Buddied up like the African animals do cross species
• 28:57
  because even up to about the 6th century AD of the common era There were lion
• 29:03
  in southern Iberia and most of southern Europe not just wolf, but big cats.
• 29:08
  So Just like the African things they're hanging out and they've got,
• 29:11
  you know, there are the wild cows.
• 29:14
  They're quite aggressive Very territorial, carry these little, like
• 29:18
  African Cape Buffalo, they, you know, carry these territories around them.
• 29:21
  If you cross inadvertently over that, they'll attack you.
• 29:24
  But if you step outside, just one step, they'll leave you alone again.
• 29:28
  You can imagine the horses were just constantly, you know, testing,
• 29:32
  going over those boundaries and having to sort of zip sideways.
• 29:34
  And then everyone's accommodating everyone else and trying to say, you know.
• 29:37
  Are we all right?
• 29:38
  Are you okay?
• 29:39
  But we all want to be together because we know we're safer together.
• 29:42
  And now here we are keeping them in isolation.
• 29:45
  But here we are presenting them with a cross species opportunity, which
• 29:50
  is presumably built into the DNA.
• 29:53
  Why wouldn't they bring those behaviors, ancestral behaviors, out to us?
• 29:59
  And then equally, how could we in our modern state possibly recognize them?
• 30:05
  Because we are so far removed from that way of life ourselves.
• 30:10
  And then it, we're sort of blind leading blind and then we end up with
• 30:13
  pathological behaviors that everyone's misunderstanding everybody, perhaps.
• 30:21
  Something which I wanted to ask you about that business of the sleeping.
• 30:26
  Most people these days do not have the luxury, unfortunately, of keeping
• 30:31
  their horses in herd situations.
• 30:32
  I wish it were not, you know, I wish it were otherwise, but
• 30:36
  it's, it's just how it is.
• 30:38
  And I sometimes get sad when I'm at Horse exposed and that sort of thing
• 30:44
  and you hear people say, oh you've got to keep your horse in the herd And if
• 30:46
  you don't know and they're often like people from Wyoming or whatever and
• 30:50
  like dude Well, you've got the state of Wyoming, you know But yeah, if you're
• 30:54
  in the suburbs of wherever you don't have that option and you can't say to
• 30:57
  those people They shouldn't own a horse.
• 31:00
  The herd situation is not necessarily available.
• 31:05
  And then even if it is, like if it's an what you call an active style you
• 31:10
  know, a sort of open stable in Germany, the herds are relatively fluid.
• 31:15
  They're not established herds of years and years and years that have
• 31:19
  the luxury of that kind of stability.
• 31:21
  And in therapeutic barns, for sure this is often the case, I mean there's, there
• 31:27
  are many therapeutic barns who do have land, but there's an awful lot that don't,
• 31:31
  and I'm thinking about in particular one really good project that we have with
• 31:35
  Horseboy in the middle, and I mean the middle of Dublin, and some people would
• 31:40
  say, well you shouldn't keep horses there, other people would say, yeah, but.
• 31:44
  Those kids in the middle of Dublin would have no access otherwise and Their horses
• 31:50
  are performing a great service and healing and the people who are running the barn
• 31:54
  of course are you know Behaving rationally and rotating them in and out from a place
• 31:59
  in the country where they can actually go out and blah blah So they're doing what
• 32:02
  they can but Can you speak to this a bit?
• 32:05
  Because I, I think this is a dilemma for a lot of horse owners and particularly
• 32:10
  horse owners that have really sort of active programs, you know, lots
• 32:14
  of clients, that sort of thing.
• 32:16
  And they, they haven't got the luxury of necessarily waiting
• 32:19
  for a horse in that way.
• 32:21
  They haven't got necessarily the staff that are attuned.
• 32:26
  They're not coming out of a culture that values that.
• 32:29
  They might say, well that's the horse.
• 32:31
  You know all the things they'd say and into the bargain.
• 32:34
  Well, maybe that horse isn't getting enough sleep So knowing what you know now,
• 32:38
  what would you what advice do you have for people in these imperfect scenarios?
• 32:45
  Through no fault of their own.
• 32:49
  Warwick Schiller: Well, probably the first thing I'd say is
• 32:53
  Horses are very resilient.
• 32:55
  They will adapt to whatever's going on And if you know if a horse is exhibiting
• 33:05
  anxious and possibly therefore dangerous behaviors, then you want to try to
• 33:10
  remedy that because they're, they're not going to be, if they're in like
• 33:14
  a therapeutic thing, they're not going to be able to work for that.
• 33:17
  But you know, that's on the, that's on the, the fight flight.
• 33:21
  That's on the, that's
• 33:22
  Rupert Isaacson: on the extreme end.
• 33:23
  It's on,
• 33:23
  Warwick Schiller: well, that's it's on the sympathetic nervous system part of it.
• 33:30
  Many times for a horse to exist in those types of conditions, they kind of can
• 33:35
  go inside their head a bit and they're more in a, if you're into polyvagal
• 33:37
  stuff, they're more in a, like a dorsal vagal shut downy type existence.
• 33:43
  And a lot of people get really bent out of shape.
• 33:46
  Like they shouldn't be like that.
• 33:48
  You know, in my marriage, my wife has.
• 33:52
  Even though she no longer identifies as anxious, she's been the anxious one.
• 33:55
  And I've been the, what I thought was the cool, calm and
• 33:58
  collected one all of my life.
• 34:00
  Then I realized that, Oh, no, she's been living in a sympathetic state.
• 34:04
  She's been living in anxiety and I've been living in shutdown.
• 34:08
  The thing about being in shutdown, like think about if you're
• 34:12
  anxious, you know, you're anxious.
• 34:14
  It's not a good feeling if you're in shutdown and you've only ever lived in
• 34:17
  shutdown and you don't know anything else, it's not a bad place to be.
• 34:22
  It's a pretty.
• 34:22
  Pretty peaceful sort of a place.
• 34:24
  Now there is more to life than living in that dorsal vagal tone but if
• 34:32
  a horse
• 34:36
  in say like a Healing scenario like you know Like you know some of the
• 34:41
  programs you're talking about and you deal with if they're in a bit of that
• 34:44
  state In order for it to work, they're quite happy to be in that, you know,
• 34:49
  they're, they're not, they're not wishing they were some, they're not
• 34:52
  suffering, they're not suffering at all.
• 34:55
  And like I said, speaking from personal experience, when you shut
• 34:58
  down, you're not suffering at all.
• 35:00
  You're not, you're not aware.
• 35:03
  That you're suffering, you know, the world may be a bit gray,
• 35:07
  but Hey, it's, it's all good.
• 35:10
  So, you know, I'd say as long as, you know, as long as a horse is
• 35:17
  well, the thing about if, you know, like I said, if they're anxious and
• 35:20
  they're, they're, they're exhibiting anxious behaviors, which can be
• 35:23
  dangerous for them or dangerous for the humans around them, they're not
• 35:28
  going to get looked after very well.
• 35:30
  They're probably going to end up in France.
• 35:33
  You know what I mean?
• 35:34
  Yeah.
• 35:34
  Whereas if they.
• 35:36
  You know, they're more tractable sort of thing that they will,
• 35:39
  they will have a purpose.
• 35:40
  They'll be fed.
• 35:41
  They'll be looked after.
• 35:42
  They'll have a life.
• 35:43
  So I don't, I'm not really judgmental about people who, you know, can't have
• 35:50
  a horse in the most perfect situation.
• 35:52
  They're very adaptable and, and someone that you and I both know, a lady from
• 35:56
  Sweden named Emily Kay's daughter is a.
• 36:00
  Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call her an animal communicator cause that would
• 36:03
  be selling her, her powers very, very short, but like she, she connects with the
• 36:10
  actual, the consciousness of all horses.
• 36:13
  And she will tell us that the horses are like, we'll do whatever we need.
• 36:17
  We're like, we don't hold any grudges.
• 36:18
  When you, when you show up differently, we can show up differently.
• 36:22
  We don't hold grudges.
• 36:23
  We.
• 36:24
  You know, and so I don't, you know, I think people can get,
• 36:31
  you know, maybe a little emotional about horses if they don't have
• 36:36
  just the most perfect life.
• 36:40
  You know what I mean?
• 36:41
  Whereas I feel like they're, they're a lot more adaptable than that.
• 36:46
  And I think about the, you know, horses in that shut down sort of a
• 36:50
  state, if you, you know, if you think about nervous system states, you go
• 36:52
  from, you know, you go from you know, relaxed or, you know, having a regulated
• 36:57
  nervous, you know, you're relaxed and then fight or flight comes after that.
• 37:01
  And then if you're captured or fight or flight's not, doesn't work, then
• 37:05
  the free state comes after that, that dorsal state comes after that.
• 37:09
  So you have to be careful about trying to bring a horse out of a dorsal state,
• 37:14
  if you so choose, because the next step on the ladder is going to be more of
• 37:21
  a sympathetic state and not going to go from dorsal to, Oh, now he's good.
• 37:25
  And so you really, you know, I think for a lot of horses.
• 37:31
  Leaving him in that bit of a dorsal state.
• 37:33
  I'm not talking about comatose type thing or catatonic sort of a thing.
• 37:38
  And we see, that's what that Mustang would do though.
• 37:40
  He'd be in this kind of a dorsal shut down.
• 37:42
  He'd kind of a state, but then he'd come out of it.
• 37:47
  And
• 37:48
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it's interesting.
• 37:50
  I think as you speak, I'm thinking about, well, the lives that a lot of the horses
• 37:54
  that I know that are in, for example, our programs now that said that the
• 37:58
  programs that we've got, the people who run them, they're excellent horse people.
• 38:02
  And they.
• 38:03
  Do everything for the horses welfare, but one of the things I've noticed that
• 38:06
  even in the, in the situations where the conditions aren't everything we
• 38:10
  would like them to be, what the horses do have is a really interesting set of
• 38:16
  relationships with a really interesting set of humans, as well as the other
• 38:21
  equines that are there, but the humans that are coming in and not coming in and
• 38:24
  saying, you must do this and sort of just bossing them about that they're coming
• 38:30
  in with an enormous vulnerability and you definitely see horses showing all sides
• 38:36
  of their personalities in a way that
• 38:41
  from the outside it appears that the horse is feeling fulfilled and has a
• 38:47
  sense of purpose and a sense of pleasure in the relationship with this variety
• 38:56
  of interesting but vulnerable humans that are coming through the door.
• 39:00
  Here's a question I wanted to ask When I got my dressage hat on and I'm being
• 39:06
  brought into clinic, in that the biggest problem I usually see isn't fear or
• 39:13
  stress in that particular type of stress.
• 39:16
  Usually it's boredom.
• 39:17
  The horse is just bored.
• 39:19
  And you said something, as I made a little note here, back in your first, when you,
• 39:25
  story, you were saying, well, is the horse just bored with endlessly going through
• 39:29
  the same drill again, and then After a while, you thought, well, maybe not.
• 39:32
  Maybe it's something else.
• 39:38
  Dressage is part of what I do for reasons that have to do more with
• 39:42
  nervous system effects on people.
• 39:46
  I've never thought that it needs to be boring because you can
• 39:49
  vary it in so many different ways if you want to make it playful.
• 39:52
  And, you know, it can be whatever you want it to be.
• 39:55
  But naturally, most people are presented with it.
• 39:59
  as something that's come out of the military.
• 40:03
  So therefore a very regimented sort of drill thing.
• 40:06
  And similarly, you see similar things in the Western world and you see similar
• 40:10
  things in I think any of the disciplines.
• 40:12
  When the horses are in this level of boredom, but they're also activating
• 40:20
  sympathetic nervous system because they need to perform really use their
• 40:23
  bodies and then presumably they're also getting endorphins you know presumably
• 40:27
  that it's not all bad but you can see this boredom you can see this desire to
• 40:32
  just express yourself and then of course there's the odd horse who can express
• 40:36
  themselves in that situation and they tend to win a lot of prizes but the
• 40:40
  average one does not with the attunement
• 40:46
  what do you say to people who are with a horse that is kind of doing
• 40:52
  the same thing every day, all day.
• 40:55
  And you know that that person doesn't feel safe doing anything else.
• 41:01
  So no matter what you say, not much is going to change.
• 41:04
  What are the, what are the, and this can happen in the not so good therapy
• 41:09
  settings as well, where the horses are just being pulled out and Effectively
• 41:13
  give them pony rides and they're stiff and they're arthritic and this sort of
• 41:16
  thing But again, people will come up with a bazillion reasons why they can't
• 41:19
  change it, you know And then you realize that you can't push this boulder uphill.
• 41:23
  So you realize that okay, that's how it's going to be What do
• 41:26
  you what's your like minimum
• 41:30
  set of tools that you will try to leave people with to?
• 41:36
  Make it as optimal as it can be even if you know, it's not going to
• 41:40
  be everything you'd like it to be
• 41:47
  Warwick Schiller: I'm not exactly sure of your question, but I
• 41:50
  wanted to, you know, this whole attunement thing is not just about
• 41:57
  listening in the beginning.
• 42:00
  It's listening all the time and noticing the horses getting bored and changing
• 42:06
  things up would be part of listening.
• 42:09
  You know what I mean?
• 42:09
  It's not this, you know, listening is not, yeah.
• 42:12
  I listened to the, I listened to you when I first got you and now we're, we're
• 42:17
  training, you know, I, I feel, you know, if you've ever heard the, the, the saying
• 42:22
  to do with training horses, you know, you want to reward the slightest try.
• 42:26
  Okay.
• 42:27
  When you reward the slightest try, not only are you rewarding the slightest
• 42:31
  try, which means usually would mean removing an aid or whatever, not only
• 42:37
  are you rewarding the slightest try, you're communicating your awareness.
• 42:43
  Of that try.
• 42:44
  And I really feel that is a huge part of a horse
• 42:51
  trusting
• 42:54
  you.
• 42:54
  You like, you just, you just you, you're repetitively
• 42:57
  saying, I noticed little things.
• 42:58
  I notice little things.
• 42:59
  I notice little things.
• 43:00
  I notice little things.
• 43:00
  And I think that's, I think that's part of the thing that makes them feel safe.
• 43:06
  And I just want to talk about that while it was on my fresh in my mind.
• 43:09
  Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
• 43:11
  considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 43:16
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 43:20
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 43:26
  Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
• 43:32
  developed in conjunction with Dr.
• 43:35
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 43:38
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 43:42
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 43:48
  It works incredibly well.
• 43:49
  It's now in about 40 countries.
• 43:52
  Check it out.
• 43:53
  If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
• 43:57
  method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
• 44:01
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 44:03
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 44:08
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 44:10
  when they're not with you.
• 44:12
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 44:16
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 44:19
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 44:23
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 44:27
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 44:31
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 44:35
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 44:39
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 44:43
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 44:46
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 44:51
  absolutely gives you this.
• 44:53
  Warwick Schiller: Can you ask your question again though?
• 44:54
  'cause I don't think I really got, yeah.
• 44:55
  Well read of your question.
• 44:56
  Rupert Isaacson: When people are locked into a system where they are doing.
• 45:02
  The same stuff over and over again.
• 45:04
  And they feel that they have to.
• 45:07
  And no matter what you say, they're going to defend that.
• 45:11
  And you know that you're going to have to walk away from that clinic,
• 45:15
  that situation, that whatever.
• 45:19
  Trying to leave a set of easy tools that will hopefully shift things just
• 45:27
  a little bit in that listening way in a culture that Not only doesn't
• 45:32
  listen, but doesn't know how to listen.
• 45:35
  And there are many cultures like this.
• 45:39
  Do you have a set of tools?
• 45:42
  Okay, you coming to, let's say you come to my barn and you just notice that I'm
• 45:46
  not really listening much and you try to show me a bit about how to listen and
• 45:52
  I'm just not listening to you either.
• 45:55
  Really, not much.
• 45:58
  You know, you're gonna leave day after tomorrow.
• 46:02
  What do, do you have like a go to strategy?
• 46:05
  Three or four things that
• 46:08
  With somebody like that with somebody like me in that situation you would
• 46:11
  say, okay I'm gonna give Rupert these three easy things and if he
• 46:16
  does these three easy things the rest will kind of begin to shift
• 46:24
  Warwick Schiller: My my go to is I don't offer advice unless people are asking
• 46:34
  So I don't look over the fence and go hey, you should be doing it differently
• 46:38
  so that's like the the first part is if I was at your place and Unless I didn't
• 46:44
  know you, and I was at your place, and you were doing something that I didn't
• 46:46
  agree with and thought you could do it differently, unless you said, Hey, any
• 46:50
  suggestions on how to do this better?
• 46:52
  I wouldn't.
• 46:53
  Say a word.
• 46:54
  And the other thing is, I'm, you know, they say you create your own luck and I'm
• 47:00
  very lucky that I've been very upfront like on social media and things like
• 47:05
  that about the way I view the world.
• 47:08
  And so I don't get people coming to clinics who aren't terribly interested
• 47:15
  in the way I'm doing things these days.
• 47:18
  So I'm very, very lucky.
• 47:20
  I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't deal with people and this
• 47:24
  is not, I don't deal with them.
• 47:25
  I don't I don't get confronted with people who want to defend their position.
• 47:30
  Who are doing
• 47:30
  Rupert Isaacson: a lot of resistance to, yeah, yeah.
• 47:32
  Warwick Schiller: Yes.
• 47:33
  And, and, and, you know, I do quite a few horse expos, but I recruit
• 47:37
  the people for the demo too.
• 47:39
  So I look for horses with a certain problem.
• 47:41
  I have them send me videos and I can see the problem, like, yeah, I can help you.
• 47:44
  So I don't have a good answer for that.
• 47:47
  Cause I really.
• 47:48
  I'm not, like I said, I'm very, very lucky that I'm not ever in
• 47:51
  a position to where I have to try to convince people of something.
• 47:56
  All right, well then I'm
• 47:57
  Rupert Isaacson: going to pose the question differently because sometimes
• 48:00
  I am in that position sometimes.
• 48:02
  The, the old god of therapeutic riding also came out of the military to some
• 48:08
  degree and isn't really attuned for people like my son when he was young.
• 48:19
  People are too bossy.
• 48:20
  There's an assumption of top down instruction being understood.
• 48:23
  People are irritable.
• 48:24
  There's a, there's, if you, as you know, if you boss People around who've got,
• 48:30
  who don't understand what you're talking about and have overactive amygdalas.
• 48:34
  It will just cause distress and harm and so on and so on, but the people
• 48:38
  who, who might be in that situation, they're in there still for the right
• 48:43
  reasons and therapeutic riding when it was born was really addressing
• 48:50
  physical injury.
• 48:52
  With some psychological trauma things attached to it, but the people who
• 48:56
  had basic top down understanding their cognition was quote unquote normal
• 49:00
  And they were basically motivated to be there motivated to get on
• 49:03
  horse with A non verbal autistic kid, this is not the case at all.
• 49:08
  And I myself would not have been able to listen in the way that I
• 49:13
  can have my own son not trained me, because nothing else worked.
• 49:17
  Fortunately, I'd also lived at the Bushman.
• 49:20
  I'd learned some things there.
• 49:22
  But it was hard enough for me.
• 49:24
  When I go in, I do have a set of tools which I try to
• 49:30
  to leave.
• 49:30
  The first one is follow the child.
• 49:33
  And then I break down what follow the child means.
• 49:35
  Follow the child is physically, you actually physically have to kind
• 49:38
  of follow them around and observe.
• 49:40
  Otherwise you've got no idea what motivates them because they're not going
• 49:42
  to tell you because they're not verbal.
• 49:44
  You know, the second one is emotionally because that's often.
• 49:48
  Sensorial, sensorally, one will think that the tantrums and meltdowns and
• 49:52
  whatever are coming out of the blue or the sudden states of ecstasy But they're
• 49:56
  actually not, they're usually in response to something hitting the nervous system
• 50:01
  and because you're observing this kid because you're physically following them
• 50:04
  around you begin to notice what's in the environment when they're upset and
• 50:08
  when they're happy and You can begin to organize their environment because you
• 50:12
  see these patterns Then the third way the final way is following them intellectually
• 50:17
  and this is about finding out.
• 50:19
  What are their obsessions?
• 50:21
  And really diving into those even if you don't like them, even if they bore you
• 50:26
  even I don't care much about minecraft Frankly, you know i'm not into Computer
• 50:31
  games, but I will absolutely get into that, why that kid is into them and then
• 50:37
  learn to talk about it and print out and cut out and laminate the characters from
• 50:42
  that show or that game and tie them to trees so that we got a treasure hunt to
• 50:47
  follow that because that's where the kid's interest is that I'm going to follow that
• 50:50
  and I'm going to, those would be like, that's a standard tool that I would go in
• 50:55
  with and it's not mine that I thought up by the way, Temple Grandin gave it to me.
• 51:01
  Most of my good ideas are not my own.
• 51:05
  People are listening to you now, and they're wondering what they can do without
• 51:09
  Warwick Schiller being in their barn, coming to their place, saying, I would
• 51:14
  like to get more attunement with my horse.
• 51:17
  I would like to listen more.
• 51:18
  How do they do this?
• 51:21
  Warwick Schiller: Well, you know what's funny is, ahem, You the, the, the
• 51:25
  three basic things that you just talked about, the following, all the stuff.
• 51:33
  It's, it's, it's, it's my basic rule too, which is first
• 51:37
  you've got to give up control.
• 51:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 51:39
  Warwick Schiller: Giving up control is the very, very, very first thing.
• 51:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm.
• 51:46
  Warwick Schiller: And, you know, you, the thing about, the thing about giving
• 51:49
  up control is you have to be able to.
• 51:52
  You know, when you're dealing with a thousand pound animal is you've
• 51:54
  got to be able to give up control in a situation to where Giving up
• 51:58
  control is not going to get anybody hurt them or you but you know for me,
• 52:06
  you know, having them give it usually usually the You know helping people
• 52:14
  with their horses a lot of times.
• 52:16
  There's they have these Transformational moments.
• 52:19
  I'm not trying to do equine assisted therapy, but helping people with their
• 52:24
  horses So many people have like of these little big aha And a lot of, a lot of
• 52:30
  times it's because they gave up control and it worked out and they've almost never
• 52:37
  been able to give up control in their entire life because they've been scared
• 52:41
  of giving up control because what's on the other side of that fear sort of thing.
• 52:44
  And when I can help somebody.
• 52:47
  Give up control and it actually helps them solve the problems with their horses.
• 52:51
  They've been trying to solve It's almost like a metaphor for life Like the the
• 52:56
  magic is on the other side of your other side of your fear and and you know
• 53:01
  Not giving up control is all the you know, it's a very fear based Fear based
• 53:07
  type thing, but it's interesting in your tongue about the following thing.
• 53:10
  So I had a
• 53:13
  And a lady came to a clinic years ago and riding her horse, he would,
• 53:17
  he has, he has sleep deprivation.
• 53:19
  So he'll be, she'll be sitting on him and he'll just buckle at the knees
• 53:22
  and almost fall down and jump up.
• 53:23
  And very, very shut down horse, like really in his head sort of thing.
• 53:27
  And one of the, she'd been to, I'd probably see her every six months.
• 53:31
  She'd, she probably went to clinics for a number of years.
• 53:34
  And initially she, she trained this horse with another person's program
• 53:38
  that was very, very obedience based.
• 53:41
  You do this, you do that, you do this.
• 53:42
  And she got him to where he was like a robot, like very robotic and low energy.
• 53:48
  She couldn't get more energy out of him.
• 53:50
  And one of the reasons she wanted, she sought me out was how do
• 53:53
  I get more energy out of him?
• 53:54
  Well, she was trying to have more.
• 53:56
  Input go in to get more energy out.
• 53:58
  But the thing was, this horse was completely dorsal, you know,
• 54:02
  like he was very, very shut down.
• 54:04
  And so any energy that went into him, he just basically blocked it out.
• 54:09
  And, you know, for her, I was trying to get her to start the conversation, but
• 54:15
  there was no starting point because the way he'd been interacted with, he was just
• 54:20
  like, humans suck sort of thing, you know.
• 54:23
  And one of the things I had to do was matching steps with him.
• 54:27
  So basically following him around, like if he walks, if you're on the ground
• 54:30
  there with him and he walks off, just go with him, go wherever he goes.
• 54:33
  Don't try to redirect him because the redirecting is not available anyway
• 54:37
  and he's been asked to do too much.
• 54:41
  And I wasn't doing that to solve any sleep deprivation issues.
• 54:46
  I was doing that to, like as a starting point for the conversation.
• 54:55
  And so she's at one clinic, this was in LA and she, I basically got a matching
• 55:00
  steps and just go on where he goes.
• 55:02
  If he stops, she stops.
• 55:03
  If he turns right, she turns right without putting any pressure on the lead rope.
• 55:09
  Anyway, she's leading him around and then he walks around a circle, lays
• 55:15
  down, goes to sleep, lays flat and starts almost like, not convulsing,
• 55:23
  but like, almost like a dog chasing rabbits in his sleep sort of thing.
• 55:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 55:28
  Warwick Schiller: And he's weaning and his little legs are going and like she
• 55:31
  said, and one of the things she said is he never lays down, I've never seen him lay
• 55:34
  down, and so he lays down at this clinic and has this sleep for a while, and he
• 55:39
  never looks at the environment, like he walks around and stares at the ground,
• 55:43
  like he's just like a He's just mmm.
• 55:46
  It's almost like a non maybe like a nonverbal child sort of thing.
• 55:49
  You know what I mean?
• 55:51
  Anyway after this sleep he chases the rabbits, you know he's little legs
• 55:56
  are gone and then he jumps up and Looks over in the distance and snorts
• 56:01
  and stuck and like really alert with his head stuck in the air and his
• 56:04
  ears Prick, you know, and these are these are things he never exhibits
• 56:10
  But it came from, came from that following and where'd the following
• 56:14
  come from giving up control, stop trying to control the animal,
• 56:18
  Rupert Isaacson: you
• 56:19
  Warwick Schiller: know, and if you think about what I did with the
• 56:20
  Mustang, I gave up control, like he turns his head instead of me going,
• 56:25
  you are subservient to me and you need to move your head back there cause I
• 56:27
  want to walk down here and do my thing.
• 56:30
  I think that's the, that's kind of the, the start of the conversation
• 56:36
  and, and, and under saddle too.
• 56:38
  Undersaddle too, very much so, but that's, but like I said you know, I don't Talk to
• 56:41
  Rupert Isaacson: us about when you're giving up control undersaddle.
• 56:44
  I think that's hard for a lot of people to picture.
• 56:49
  Warwick Schiller: That's easy, ask him, you know, for me, a horse has to be able
• 56:52
  to walk, trot, and canter on a loose rein, but no steering, no influence
• 56:57
  from the rider, and use the whole arena before we even start doing much else.
• 57:02
  I want the horse to be as comfortable under saddle with a human on
• 57:06
  their back as they are walking around out there on their own.
• 57:09
  Like, you know, you don't see horses crab walking sideways or things like that
• 57:17
  when no one's, when no one's riding them.
• 57:19
  And so I, I, I basically want to have them to where
• 57:25
  you can, like I said, walk, trot, kennel, no steering on a loose run.
• 57:29
  You know, you think about a lot of times people, when they start riding a horse,
• 57:32
  they want the horse to go forward.
• 57:34
  But then there's all these limiting factors and what I call what do I call it?
• 57:40
  Opposing forces.
• 57:42
  Okay.
• 57:43
  When you're working on forward, it's forward only, not forward in a certain
• 57:46
  direction with a certain carriage, with a certain amount of contact.
• 57:48
  It's, can you go forward?
• 57:50
  And if they're standing still and you ask them to walk, don't, and you don't steer
• 57:55
  them, the reins are completely loose, the horse can do whatever they want.
• 57:58
  A lot of times they will tell you where their mind is at.
• 58:00
  And usually they'll just walk straight over to the gate.
• 58:03
  Okay, because their thoughts are back at the barn or back with
• 58:06
  their friends or whatever but
• 58:12
  You know, that's, that's normally what will happen.
• 58:14
  Well, either one or two things will happen.
• 58:15
  I'll do that.
• 58:17
  Or when they go to walk off, they'll walk and then they'll get a bunch of
• 58:23
  energy and they'll go off into a trot, you know, like they'll start to run off
• 58:26
  and that's when you can just pick up one round and redirect that energy back around
• 58:30
  until you kind of wind it back down.
• 58:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 58:35
  Well, I think that's an essential point because it can sound very
• 58:39
  extreme to say I'm giving up control completely if the horse.
• 58:42
  Now takes off at a fast canter in the arena heading towards the corner very fast
• 58:47
  or whatever or whatever and oh shit now suddenly Maybe they're gonna fall over.
• 58:51
  Yeah, but what you're saying is no you are still Directing a bit.
• 58:56
  Warwick Schiller: Well, you give up control until you need to take control.
• 58:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, but that's you have control and if they control
• 59:02
  themselves Crucial point to make
• 59:04
  Warwick Schiller: they have still has to be control.
• 59:06
  Mm hmm.
• 59:06
  Okay, you give up control And the horse should be under their own control.
• 59:11
  And if they lose control, then you have to take control and, but you're not
• 59:15
  trying to stop things from happening.
• 59:17
  It's not out of a, it's not out of a out of a, you shouldn't
• 59:20
  be doing that mentality.
• 59:23
  It's, it's kind of like if, if a if an autistic child is having a meltdown,
• 59:28
  do you tell them, get in their face and tell them, stop doing that.
• 59:31
  You know what I mean?
• 59:32
  It's the same thing with a horse gets, gets emotionally activated trying
• 59:36
  to say, no, you shouldn't do that.
• 59:38
  You know, you can't, you can't stop energy.
• 59:40
  So all, you know, all you're going to do is just redirect that energy till it
• 59:44
  kind of winds back down and they come to a stop that is also a present stop.
• 59:49
  Meaning their mind, a lot of times people can get a horse to come to a halt,
• 59:54
  but their mind is still in the future.
• 59:56
  And that's where that energy was coming from.
• 59:58
  You got to wait till their thoughts change.
• 1:00:01
  And now they're in their body, their mind and their body are in
• 1:00:03
  the same place at the same time.
• 1:00:04
  Because a lot of times what happens is their thoughts run
• 1:00:06
  away and then their body runs away to catch up to their thoughts.
• 1:00:09
  So when you bring them back down again and they come to a stop but their
• 1:00:12
  thoughts are still going, you just wait till the thoughts come back to you
• 1:00:16
  and right there, they are now present.
• 1:00:19
  Their mind and body are in the same place at the same time.
• 1:00:22
  And what have you just done?
• 1:00:25
  Attunement.
• 1:00:25
  You just said, I noticed the moment that your thoughts went
• 1:00:29
  from the future to the present.
• 1:00:31
  And when you release the rain, right, then you've, you've got
• 1:00:35
  the physical thing where they're, they're, they're minding their body
• 1:00:37
  in the same place at the same time.
• 1:00:38
  But you've also said, I'm so in tune with you that I noticed when your thoughts
• 1:00:42
  changed, when you let go of that thought, when you let go of that anxious thought.
• 1:00:48
  And so the, you know, giving up control.
• 1:00:50
  It's not, it's not about being out of control.
• 1:00:53
  It's about giving up control and.
• 1:00:58
  But they still, but they have to be under their own control.
• 1:01:01
  That's this whole walk, trot, kennel, loose rein, but no steering.
• 1:01:03
  Before I start doing much with horses, they have to be under their own control.
• 1:01:08
  You don't control the horse.
• 1:01:09
  You control you.
• 1:01:10
  Presumably
• 1:01:11
  Rupert Isaacson: some horses are going to come in so far from that,
• 1:01:14
  that in 20, 10 to 30 minutes, they may or may not be able to
• 1:01:24
  Warwick Schiller: Usually when I'm doing a clinic if any horse has any anxiety
• 1:01:27
  sort of stuff, we start on the ground the first day, we don't, you know, I
• 1:01:31
  don't usually go, yes, let's start, let's start, you have, you have ridden issues,
• 1:01:38
  let's start there, I don't usually do that, you know, usually I tell, usually
• 1:01:41
  I tell them, you know, I've got this under saddle problem, I'll say that
• 1:01:45
  Einstein once said that approaching a problem at the level of the problem, Is
• 1:01:51
  the problem, you know, cause it's going to be an emotional regulation thing.
• 1:01:55
  It's not going to be a, there, there is no bolting issue or rearing issue
• 1:02:00
  or bucking issue, whatever it's their emotional regulation issues.
• 1:02:03
  And if you get the emotions regulated, the bodies, the body works just fine.
• 1:02:09
  Rupert Isaacson: When you've got, I'm thinking about people who are in
• 1:02:12
  really busy situations, for example, a therapy bar, loads of clients coming
• 1:02:18
  in, they're usually almost overwhelmed.
• 1:02:20
  And it's difficult to turn people away.
• 1:02:22
  So chances are they've got more clients than they can handle.
• 1:02:27
  That's usually what I see.
• 1:02:29
  People are overworked.
• 1:02:31
  So their worry is often, well, how am I going to find time to do anything
• 1:02:37
  other than serve these clients?
• 1:02:40
  Because, you know, that's where my primary, primary, you know,
• 1:02:44
  sense of service needs to be.
• 1:02:46
  We faced this issue ourselves when we were at our.
• 1:02:51
  sort of busiest at new trails in Texas and The work that we needed to do for
• 1:02:57
  the horses to condition them We're like shit, we can't do it because we're just
• 1:03:01
  overwhelmed and then I say, oh, hold on.
• 1:03:03
  Hold on I'm thinking about this the wrong way the conditioning work needs
• 1:03:07
  to be The work with the client and then why can't the client learn to also do
• 1:03:12
  the conditioning work because Many of these people absolutely can and then this
• 1:03:17
  whole other side of what we do called taking got born Just exactly that which
• 1:03:22
  was which took out the time conflict but it's very difficult for people to
• 1:03:25
  see beyond the time conflict when that's right in their face understandably and
• 1:03:30
  so Let's say people are listening to you now and they're going, well, I'd
• 1:03:35
  love to do some of this stuff that Warwick's talking about, but you know,
• 1:03:38
  where am I going to find the time?
• 1:03:40
  How could they mix that in with time working with clients?
• 1:03:45
  So for example, the first question they're going to have is what I
• 1:03:47
  can't, you know, lose control of the horse while they're with the client.
• 1:03:51
  So we faced this problem too.
• 1:03:53
  And we came up with this thing called crazy time.
• 1:03:55
  And so we realized that a lot of times the horses just needed play and they
• 1:04:01
  weren't getting it, for whatever reason.
• 1:04:04
  So we could create it and we would go in the arena, put a bunch of obstacles out.
• 1:04:10
  The horses liked jumping, there were jumps.
• 1:04:11
  If they didn't, there were other things.
• 1:04:13
  And we'd encourage the horses to play and About every two minutes we go and change
• 1:04:18
  it, to keep the horses sort of interested.
• 1:04:22
  And then, what we do is we start measuring out the distances, and widths and heights
• 1:04:28
  of the jump, and then the distance of the long side, and how fast do you, or
• 1:04:32
  the horse, or the dog, go down that long side, and then you can calculate distance
• 1:04:36
  over time, and suddenly you're doing math, you're getting speed, and there's
• 1:04:40
  also horsemanship, and there's also team building, and we suddenly realize,
• 1:04:42
  Oh my gosh, that's a whole program!
• 1:04:44
  And we can absolutely give the horses what they need to Not have any
• 1:04:47
  control without the time conflict, but it took us a while to get there.
• 1:04:52
  And we got there because, you know, We were getting stressed and our
• 1:04:55
  horses were getting stressed and we had to come up with something creative
• 1:04:59
  when people are Wanting to do what you're talking about There's time
• 1:05:06
  that they need to take to do this.
• 1:05:08
  Some of them may feel they haven't got it again Are there easy hacks
• 1:05:12
  that you can recommend that can just introduce aspects of this
• 1:05:19
  into quote unquote working sessions
• 1:05:24
  Warwick Schiller: Well, I, you know, I don't know much about
• 1:05:27
  the whole therapeutic writing.
• 1:05:29
  But I'm also thinking of writing schools, for example, I'm thinking
• 1:05:31
  it's sort of any writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, writing
• 1:05:35
  schools would be quite, quite easy.
• 1:05:39
  And let me tell you a little story.
• 1:05:41
  So there is a there's a couple of places here in America, they're
• 1:05:43
  resorts, they're very high end resorts.
• 1:05:46
  They're there's, there's two of them.
• 1:05:48
  I mean, there's a lot more than these two, but these two are like sister ones, you
• 1:05:51
  know, that's owned by the same company.
• 1:05:54
  And they do have a, like an equine assisted.
• 1:05:57
  One of the things you can do is go ride a horse, but it's meant to be,
• 1:06:02
  it's meant to be, you know, personal growth, self reflection type stuff.
• 1:06:08
  And.
• 1:06:10
  We actually had some of the people that run the horse park come to one of our
• 1:06:14
  retreats last year and they were saying, we want you to come and, we want you
• 1:06:18
  to come and help us because our horses, you know, tend to deteriorate over time.
• 1:06:25
  How do we, how do we, and we don't really have the time to.
• 1:06:31
  To do the right thing with the horses that you know, and it was all that and I said,
• 1:06:36
  oh, I've got it I've got a great idea because like I said before a lot of times
• 1:06:41
  when people come to a clinic They'll have a transformational experience on they've
• 1:06:45
  come to the clinic to have me help them with their horses But in the helping of
• 1:06:48
  the with their horses usually they've got a they've got a face Part of themselves.
• 1:06:55
  They don't normally face it might be giving up control.
• 1:06:57
  It might be they're too quick to anger It might be they're too timid.
• 1:07:02
  It might be one of those sorts of things And so I'm gonna go to one of these
• 1:07:08
  places to this place and I'm gonna spend a couple of days there and help
• 1:07:11
  They the instructors or whatever you whatever they are the therapists where
• 1:07:16
  they are show them some things they can do with the horses and the people at the
• 1:07:19
  same time and actually have the people training the horses, but the people
• 1:07:23
  will be getting the, the, you know, the personal growth, self reflection
• 1:07:27
  benefit out of it while they, while they are actually helping the horses.
• 1:07:33
  Be more consistent in their job, you know, because I don't I almost
• 1:07:37
  don't think you can separate the two I would so agree But these are these
• 1:07:41
  are you know, these are these people are going to be able bodied and you
• 1:07:46
  know, I'm not I'm not talking about
• 1:07:50
  You know if you've if you've got to have Two handlers leading the horse and two
• 1:07:54
  people holding the person on the horse.
• 1:07:55
  That's a totally different scenario.
• 1:07:58
  These are, you know, these are able bodied people.
• 1:08:02
  So, you know, like I said, I don't know too much about the
• 1:08:05
  whole Well, for example, when
• 1:08:06
  Rupert Isaacson: we're in exactly that situation that you just described,
• 1:08:09
  let's say we've, we've got someone who's not stable and there are.
• 1:08:13
  A couple of us on either side and we're having to create a very safe
• 1:08:17
  environment but what I need to do is also create oxytocin for that human's
• 1:08:22
  nervous system And I need to create BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factor for
• 1:08:28
  the cognition And I want the horse to be getting its yoga at the same time.
• 1:08:35
  So I'll be using in hand patterns, long reining patterns,
• 1:08:41
  while that person's up there.
• 1:08:44
  We'll be doing the jaw flexions, we'll be helping the horse to flex the neck,
• 1:08:48
  we'll be doing whatever we can do that we would be doing anyway in a conditioning
• 1:08:53
  session while the horse is working.
• 1:08:56
  Warwick Schiller: But it's a, it's a, it's a conditioning
• 1:08:57
  session, not a training session.
• 1:08:59
  Exactly.
• 1:09:00
  You're not, you're not teaching this horse to do this movement.
• 1:09:02
  No, I'm not going to teach the horse
• 1:09:03
  Rupert Isaacson: something new while they've got, or they
• 1:09:05
  have to take care of somebody.
• 1:09:06
  No.
• 1:09:07
  Warwick Schiller: Exactly.
• 1:09:07
  Yeah.
• 1:09:08
  Yeah.
• 1:09:09
  Rupert Isaacson: And I think that's actually a very good
• 1:09:11
  point that you just made.
• 1:09:11
  There is a big difference between conditioning and training.
• 1:09:14
  And what gets confusing is they often look quite similar.
• 1:09:17
  The same exercise could be for either, right?
• 1:09:19
  You know, rather like martial arts, you could use a certain movement
• 1:09:23
  of your arm to condition your arm.
• 1:09:25
  Or to actually learn how to punch.
• 1:09:27
  It's essentially the same movement, but how you do it.
• 1:09:31
  And the intention with which you do it, you know, but I think
• 1:09:35
  the point that you've raised, which I think is really useful is
• 1:09:41
  where the difficulty with giving up control is, I think, is that what we're
• 1:09:47
  all taught, what we're all conditioned to when we're small is this idea of
• 1:09:51
  separation, that we are separate from other things, that we have to separate
• 1:09:55
  our time, this is work time, this is play time, this is sleep time, this is,
• 1:09:59
  you know, this is relaxed time, this is alert time, whereas in fact it's, In
• 1:10:05
  a perfect world, it's much more fluid.
• 1:10:07
  And one doesn't have to separate out conditioning from the horse
• 1:10:12
  working, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:10:14
  But it's a mental leap, I think for many of us.
• 1:10:16
  And it was for me to, to not automatically make those separations.
• 1:10:22
  Like when we're working in schools with our movement method
• 1:10:24
  program and trying to show.
• 1:10:29
  A teacher.
• 1:10:30
  No, you don't have to separate movement from learning.
• 1:10:32
  You can absolutely do it in the same time, but it's not your fault that
• 1:10:36
  you think that you have to, because that's always how it's been presented.
• 1:10:39
  To get over these things is tricky.
• 1:10:43
  You've talked about sleep deprivation a couple of times in this.
• 1:10:47
  How often is this something that you're seeing coming up
• 1:10:51
  Warwick Schiller: with horses?
• 1:10:52
  Not often.
• 1:10:53
  Okay.
• 1:10:55
  And you know, and there's a lot of reason for sleep deprivation.
• 1:10:57
  The ones that I have, there's been a few of them at clinics that it
• 1:11:03
  seems That the stuff that I'm doing has helped them with their sleep
• 1:11:07
  deprivation, but I wasn't trying to help them with sleep deprivation.
• 1:11:12
  It was more the attunement stuff was more communicating my awareness of
• 1:11:16
  their awareness that sort of thing.
• 1:11:19
  You know, there's a, there's a podcast, there's a vet that does a podcast and
• 1:11:24
  she did an episode on sleep deprivation.
• 1:11:25
  Someone said, you should listen to this vet on this podcast.
• 1:11:27
  She's really good.
• 1:11:28
  So I looked through, I scrolled through the whole list of podcasts you know, her
• 1:11:31
  episodes and one was on sleep deprivation.
• 1:11:33
  I thought, well.
• 1:11:34
  I've had a little bit of experience with that at clinics.
• 1:11:36
  I'll have a listen.
• 1:11:37
  And this vet said the only reasons horses have sleep deprivation is from pain.
• 1:11:44
  And it's from like being sore in their hocks and they can't lay,
• 1:11:47
  they don't want to lay down because they have a hard time getting up.
• 1:11:49
  And I'm thinking I didn't inject the hocks of these horses.
• 1:11:55
  So what I'm saying is I think there's a lot of different
• 1:11:57
  reason for sleep deprivation.
• 1:11:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:11:59
  Warwick Schiller: Some of it can be pain.
• 1:12:01
  I've not encountered those because I didn't do any pain with, you
• 1:12:05
  know, the, the, the ones that I've encountered and I wasn't trying to
• 1:12:09
  resolve sleep deprivation, the ones that I've encountered, you know, they
• 1:12:14
  just had dysregulated nervous systems.
• 1:12:15
  And that was just the attunement stuff that I was working on
• 1:12:18
  to make them feel better.
• 1:12:20
  It just so happened.
• 1:12:21
  Some of them had helped them with their sleep deprivation that, you know, like
• 1:12:25
  that Mustang after he laid in and went to sleep, I said, does he do that often?
• 1:12:30
  So I knew nothing about, he doesn't lay down.
• 1:12:32
  The other one with the buckling knees, yeah, he was.
• 1:12:36
  He I knew that he had that problem, but I wasn't trying to resolve that.
• 1:12:40
  I wasn't trying to resolve that problem.
• 1:12:42
  So it's not like I'm any expert on sleep deprivation.
• 1:12:44
  I'm not an expert on much, but most everything I have come up with is all
• 1:12:50
  pretty being empiric and it's, I, I tend to come to the science from the backend.
• 1:12:54
  I will,
• 1:12:57
  maybe I'll intuitively do something with a horse at a clinic and it works and it's.
• 1:13:00
  Different than anything else I've ever done.
• 1:13:02
  And then you look at the science and you figure out, Oh yeah.
• 1:13:04
  Like polyvagal theory, I rejected polyvagal theory for the longest time.
• 1:13:10
  People said, you should read about polyvagal theory.
• 1:13:13
  Well, I wasn't interested in a theory.
• 1:13:14
  I want the facts, man.
• 1:13:16
  You know what I mean?
• 1:13:17
  But after I started reading about it, I'm like.
• 1:13:20
  Oh, that's what happened to the Mustang.
• 1:13:22
  That's what happened with this horse.
• 1:13:23
  That's what happened with that horse.
• 1:13:24
  And so I tend to come to the science from the background, bigger things
• 1:13:29
  that empirically, and then I read stuff that explains scientifically why that
• 1:13:36
  works, it's, you know, it's kind of like these days scientists, you know,
• 1:13:40
  like quantum entanglement and all that sort of stuff can explain religion and
• 1:13:44
  shamanic things in scientific terms.
• 1:13:47
  But you know, they, they, they were empiric things first.
• 1:13:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 1:13:53
  It's, it's, it's looking at why the thing is happening that we keep
• 1:13:56
  observing, but we know it's happening because we keep observing it.
• 1:14:00
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah, and you said, speaking of observing, you said something
• 1:14:02
  before about People think that their autistic children's outbursts, uh, random,
• 1:14:09
  but if you're observant and you go, what was going on right before this happened
• 1:14:14
  and you see things happen enough times, you're like, Oh, I know what triggers it.
• 1:14:18
  And that's, that's totally empiric, but it's, but it's about being observant.
• 1:14:23
  So it's about not having a story about what's going on and
• 1:14:30
  letting what's going on tell you.
• 1:14:32
  What's going on?
• 1:14:33
  You know, you and I have had a conversation some other time about a book
• 1:14:36
  I read by a guy named Charles Foster, who is a British Maybe he's an anthropologist.
• 1:14:44
  Maybe he's a I forget what he is, but he wrote a book called being a
• 1:14:51
  human exploration in 50, 000 years of consciousness and He goes, him and his
• 1:14:58
  son go to the north of England and live in the forests up there as hunter gatherers
• 1:15:02
  for six months or something like that.
• 1:15:04
  He was eating hedgehogs.
• 1:15:05
  And I think there was one time there he spent 11 days without eating anything.
• 1:15:09
  And the visions that he had from the hunger were like plant medicine journeys,
• 1:15:14
  but it was just from not eating.
• 1:15:15
  And, but anyway, one of the things he says in there, he's talking about the
• 1:15:18
  trees and he said In this book, he says, you know what, I've never really seen
• 1:15:22
  a tree as a matter of fact, it's been a long time since I've seen anything.
• 1:15:27
  He said, when I look at a tree, I don't see the tree because I'm a, he's a
• 1:15:31
  botanist or a naturalist or whatever.
• 1:15:33
  He says, when I look at a tree, I quantify what type of trees, is it deciduous?
• 1:15:37
  You know, what sort of things tend to grow around it?
• 1:15:40
  What, what.
• 1:15:42
  bugs eats it, what birds live in it.
• 1:15:44
  But he said, I don't really see the tree because I've got a story about the tree.
• 1:15:48
  And he said, I once met a man who could see a tree and it scared me so much.
• 1:15:53
  I left that temple, took a bus back to Kathmandu and flew
• 1:15:57
  straight home from the airport.
• 1:15:59
  And so he's talking about someone who could.
• 1:16:03
  See exactly what's in front of him without a story attached to it.
• 1:16:06
  And I feel like with the horses,
• 1:16:11
  part of this attunement thing is getting to the point to where you can just see
• 1:16:14
  what they're telling you without your own, without your own story attached to it.
• 1:16:19
  Cause I think there's a, there's a, there's a vibration
• 1:16:22
  and an energy to your story.
• 1:16:25
  And that's the thing I, I can't you know, you can't give somebody
• 1:16:32
  that they've almost got to, they've almost got to be able.
• 1:16:36
  Got to kind of work on that themselves.
• 1:16:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we are the storytelling ape after all, we
• 1:16:40
  can't help it, you know, it's, it's, it's, that's also the best
• 1:16:43
  side of us, that's our healing.
• 1:16:45
  Yeah.
• 1:16:45
  But your original point, which is that basically what you're trying
• 1:16:51
  to do is make horses feel safe.
• 1:16:54
  If they feel heard, if they feel seen, i.
• 1:16:56
  e.
• 1:16:57
  observed, listened to, this kind of deep listening, they will feel safe.
• 1:17:00
  If they feel safe, then if they need to sleep, they can sleep.
• 1:17:02
  If they need to do this, they can do it.
• 1:17:04
  And then they can return to their sort of appropriate nervous system behavior.
• 1:17:11
  Well being.
• 1:17:12
  Well being, I suppose.
• 1:17:15
  There's been a couple of people that I work with.
• 1:17:17
  In our programs who've been doing Warwick Schiller achievement stuff
• 1:17:23
  for a while, and they report back to me that it really helps them,
• 1:17:27
  not just in the horse side, but it really helps them in the human side.
• 1:17:30
  One of them is a mutual friend of ours, somebody called Leanna Tank,
• 1:17:34
  who I'm looking forward to when you interview her because, as you know,
• 1:17:39
  she works in the criminal justice system in Michigan with people who
• 1:17:43
  have, Often committed quite monstrous crimes, the most atrocious of crimes.
• 1:17:50
  The most atrocious of crimes.
• 1:17:52
  But who were acquitted for reasons of insanity.
• 1:17:55
  So we're not talking about psychopaths who were delightedly planning it and
• 1:18:02
  laughing about it or anything like that.
• 1:18:03
  We're talking about people who were under extraordinary psychosis or
• 1:18:11
  such great distress or whatever.
• 1:18:13
  That this thing happened.
• 1:18:16
  And I've often asked her why is it Leanna that you can do this work over years
• 1:18:24
  and hang out in this situation where people it's not that Other people's
• 1:18:28
  lives have really suffered their own lifers, you know, and they're in
• 1:18:35
  lockdowns and you come in and You seem to be able to not lose your likeness of
• 1:18:46
  heart and at the same time you seem to be able to impart Some of that to help
• 1:18:52
  bring back quality of life and some degree of wellbeing to people who've
• 1:18:57
  lost a wellbeing and whose society might say do not deserve wellbeing.
• 1:19:01
  And she said, well, you know, a lot of the attunement stuff with
• 1:19:04
  Warwick actually helped me with this.
• 1:19:06
  She said, I wasn't actually maybe quite as, as, I think she always had a
• 1:19:09
  predisposition for it, obviously, but she said, I, I started really looking at.
• 1:19:18
  where their eyes were going, or really listening to what they were talking about,
• 1:19:22
  or really beginning to ask them things like stuff about their taste in music, and
• 1:19:28
  stuff about their taste in art, and she said what happened, and then taking them
• 1:19:33
  out into nature and realizing that, rather like the horse that you were describing,
• 1:19:38
  sort of suddenly looking off into the distance, people who hadn't been out for
• 1:19:42
  a long time, and they'd suddenly start doing this sort of thing, and Then she'd
• 1:19:49
  look where they were looking and think, well, are they looking at the clouds?
• 1:19:54
  Right.
• 1:19:54
  So making an observation about that and then the person, yes, yes, I
• 1:19:58
  think it is coming on to rain and this creating human connection, but I think.
• 1:20:04
  It does come down to safety.
• 1:20:09
  If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
• 1:20:14
  you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
• 1:20:20
  of dressage training.
• 1:20:21
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 1:20:30
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 1:20:36
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 1:20:42
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 1:20:45
  Intrigued?
• 1:20:46
  Like to know more?
• 1:20:48
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 1:20:52
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 1:20:55
  Take it from there.
• 1:20:56
  Warwick Schiller: Can I just interrupt right there?
• 1:20:58
  There's a lady who's been to several of my clinics in Texas.
• 1:21:01
  And she's a
• 1:21:02
  she works in a juvenile psych ward.
• 1:21:06
  And she's some sort of a social worker, I think, you know,
• 1:21:09
  like a juvenile psych ward.
• 1:21:10
  And the last time I saw her, I said, I said, how's work, you know?
• 1:21:13
  Cause she had told me some interesting stories.
• 1:21:15
  I said, how's work?
• 1:21:15
  She goes, Oh, it's, it's terrible.
• 1:21:17
  You know, it's been really hard.
• 1:21:19
  She said, we've had, we've had kids in there as young as the.
• 1:21:24
  Who've been trafficked, some of them from as young as the age of four.
• 1:21:29
  And I'm like, Oh my God, where do you even start?
• 1:21:32
  Like they've got to be,
• 1:21:36
  you know, so broken.
• 1:21:37
  I said, where do you even start?
• 1:21:39
  And she said, well, most of them are nonverbal.
• 1:21:41
  And she said, the room we have each of them in has like two twin beds,
• 1:21:46
  one on either side, you know, but they don't put two people in the same room.
• 1:21:49
  And she said, a lot of times these kids will just curl up on their bed
• 1:21:52
  in the corner and face the wall.
• 1:21:54
  And she said.
• 1:21:55
  How, and you can't speak to them, speaking to them makes them cower.
• 1:21:59
  You know, you can't look directly at them.
• 1:22:01
  She said, where we start.
• 1:22:03
  And this is, you know, this is like what Temple Green had told you
• 1:22:05
  with, with Rowan, it's a type of following, but it's just mirroring.
• 1:22:10
  She said, if they're curled up in the corner on their bed, you
• 1:22:13
  go and curl up on the other bed, the same way they're curled up.
• 1:22:16
  And if they move their posture at all, you move your posture the same way.
• 1:22:20
  And you're telling them two things.
• 1:22:22
  And one of the things you're telling them is I don't want anything from you.
• 1:22:26
  I'm not going to approach you, I'm not going to come anywhere near,
• 1:22:28
  I don't want anything from you.
• 1:22:30
  But the other thing you're doing is communicating, I'm very aware of
• 1:22:34
  how you're feeling about everything.
• 1:22:37
  And you know, I'm very aware of where your posture, what your posture looks
• 1:22:39
  like and I adjust my, and after a while, she said those that's, that's
• 1:22:43
  the in, they'll actually start to
• 1:22:48
  let you in just a little bit.
• 1:22:49
  And like that horse that, that, you know, that had the sleep deprivation when he
• 1:22:54
  used to buckle at the knees that lay down at the clinic, that's what the, all
• 1:22:58
  that was about was having him let us.
• 1:23:01
  In, but you couldn't ask him to do anything to, he wasn't letting you in
• 1:23:06
  and the more you asked him, the more he'd figuratively literally figuratively
• 1:23:11
  curl up in the corner, like one of these kids would, you know what I mean?
• 1:23:13
  And he wouldn't, he wouldn't do that.
• 1:23:15
  He just stood there with no expression on his face sort of thing, you know,
• 1:23:20
  but pressure didn't do anything to him cause he wasn't letting anybody in.
• 1:23:23
  And so, yeah, I, I feel like when she told me that.
• 1:23:29
  What they do with those kids.
• 1:23:31
  It's like yeah, that's that's mirroring and you know, you know
• 1:23:33
  about mirror neurons and how all that stuff works But you know, not
• 1:23:38
  Rupert Isaacson: everyone listening does talk to us about mirror neurons.
• 1:23:40
  Warwick Schiller: No No, you I don't know much about it except it seems to
• 1:23:44
  be that you know Like if you if you're a salesman, they'll tell you if you want
• 1:23:48
  to make a sale Adopt the posture of the person you're talking to if they fold
• 1:23:53
  their arms you fold your arms if you put your feet a certain Way put your
• 1:23:56
  feet a certain way and and there's a subconscious thing people pick up on that.
• 1:23:59
  You're kind of getting them That that's a manipulative way of doing it, you know,
• 1:24:05
  you're like in the sales world, but So I don't really know not this is you know,
• 1:24:10
  this is all empiric for me to like hear about the science afterwards But there is
• 1:24:14
  something about These things called mirror neurons that recognize when people are
• 1:24:20
  mirroring you in it And I I feel like the the whole thing behind it is it it creates
• 1:24:26
  a level of connection if I'm not mistaken
• 1:24:30
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, you know often when I'm dealing with someone who's
• 1:24:32
  nonverbal, let's say they're in the saddle
• 1:24:37
  I'm not trying to get anything from him, right?
• 1:24:39
  But I am providing for example conversation but not conversation where
• 1:24:46
  I want them to converse with me And the conversation can be, I'm following what
• 1:24:51
  I know they're interested in, say for example, laminated cutouts in the trees.
• 1:24:57
  But equally, I could be
• 1:24:59
  simply looking where they look and trying to mirror their emotional state.
• 1:25:04
  Not if it's heightened, but for example, if it's very calm,
• 1:25:11
  then I just want to be very calm with them.
• 1:25:15
  If they're flapping and moving a lot, but it seems to be happy, I'm more animated.
• 1:25:24
  If they seem fearful, I try to be, to project just a feeling of, I am safety,
• 1:25:32
  but I can't do much more than that.
• 1:25:35
  And I can trust to the horse and the horse's motion and the nature around
• 1:25:38
  us to kind of do the job, right?
• 1:25:41
  I'm just really providing a way.
• 1:25:44
  To do that.
• 1:25:44
  But as you said, you know, what tends to happen if, if, if I do that is a
• 1:25:50
  relationship builds where at a certain point that person will reach out.
• 1:25:55
  It can take a while though.
• 1:25:56
  It can take many sessions.
• 1:25:58
  It's, it's might happen in that sessions.
• 1:26:00
  And you were talking about mirror neurons.
• 1:26:03
  I'm just looking it up so that we can get it straight.
• 1:26:05
  It says here on Dr.
• 1:26:07
  Google, mirror neurons are a class of neuron that modulate their activity.
• 1:26:15
  Both when an individual executes a specific motor act, so a movement, and
• 1:26:21
  when they observe the same or similar act performed by another individual.
• 1:26:28
  I'm just thinking what, what does that mean?
• 1:26:30
  And I'm, I'm thinking about like a healing ritual.
• 1:26:33
  So if we were, if you and I went into, we have been in a healing ritual
• 1:26:37
  together, but let's say we were in one that Involved think about actually
• 1:26:43
  that's actually not a bad thing.
• 1:26:44
  You and I found ourselves a few years ago in a sweat lodge.
• 1:26:49
  And we didn't really know the protocol.
• 1:26:54
  We were being told a little bit what to do, but we were observing everyone in
• 1:26:57
  there was observing each other and we could all pick up from each other's cues.
• 1:27:03
  And it didn't take long before we were all breathing in sync and chanting in sync.
• 1:27:08
  And
• 1:27:11
  rocking a little bit in sync.
• 1:27:14
  Warwick Schiller: And what was really interesting is one of our major
• 1:27:16
  senses was not available to us.
• 1:27:18
  That's true.
• 1:27:18
  It was pitch dark.
• 1:27:20
  We couldn't see, but there was that.
• 1:27:24
  So it's not just a, it's not just a mirror as in there's got to
• 1:27:29
  be an energetic thing to it too.
• 1:27:30
  Cause we ended up all doing the same thing, but we couldn't see each other.
• 1:27:33
  We could feel each other.
• 1:27:35
  We could sense where everybody was in the sweat lodge,
• 1:27:41
  you know, we can hear each other's breathing that sort of thing.
• 1:27:45
  Yeah.
• 1:27:45
  So it was, it was quite interesting.
• 1:27:47
  And it's interesting.
• 1:27:48
  You were talking about looking where they look, you know, that seems to
• 1:27:51
  be very helpful with the horses is when they get a bit concerned, look
• 1:27:58
  at what they're looking at and it's.
• 1:28:02
  I think, I think there's a couple of things to it.
• 1:28:07
  One of the things is you, as far as attunement is
• 1:28:09
  you're, you're communicating.
• 1:28:10
  Yes.
• 1:28:11
  I'm aware that you see something that could be a danger.
• 1:28:14
  Like I noticed you noticing, but the thing you have to do when you look at
• 1:28:20
  it, it's just like you said, if mirroring children, if they're fearful, you
• 1:28:25
  have to have that, that calm presence.
• 1:28:29
  So if a horse, you know, if a horse puts their head up and looks at
• 1:28:32
  something that they're concerned about, I will look at it too.
• 1:28:36
  Like I notice you notice that thing and I see it but then I'm
• 1:28:40
  projecting that calm energy like I see it But it's not gonna hurt us.
• 1:28:44
  It's
• 1:28:44
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I'm not gonna mirror your fear
• 1:28:46
  Warwick Schiller: I'm not gonna mirror your fear, but I will look at what you're
• 1:28:49
  looking at, but I will project a a Level of or I'll project a lack of concern
• 1:28:54
  about it But that's totally different than not looking at all because not looking
• 1:28:59
  at all tells them I didn't notice you looking at it And I didn't even notice it.
• 1:29:05
  And so you're communicating your lack of awareness of
• 1:29:07
  stuff, of stuff, of stuff there.
• 1:29:10
  So that's, that's one of the things I will do is, is, but I'll only do that
• 1:29:17
  unless it gets their anxiety gets so far gone that they need to move their feet.
• 1:29:24
  And then I'll redirect, then I'll redirect their thoughts so that their
• 1:29:28
  minds back with their feet, you know, what I like to call their presence.
• 1:29:31
  So their mind and their body are in the same place at the same
• 1:29:33
  Rupert Isaacson: time.
• 1:29:34
  Talk to me about how you do that.
• 1:29:36
  Warwick Schiller: Ah, well usually it's, you know, usually it's, this
• 1:29:38
  would be if you were, if you were, you know, if they're on line, they're
• 1:29:42
  on a lead rope and I will, if they've got to move their feet and walk off,
• 1:29:48
  I'll let them walk as far as they get to the end of the lead rope.
• 1:29:50
  I have like a, you know, 12 foot lead rope.
• 1:29:55
  If they get to the end of the lead rope, and this is where the training part comes
• 1:29:59
  in, they walk off and get to where they take the slack out of the lead rope.
• 1:30:03
  But as they, as the slack comes out of that lead rope, I usually have a little
• 1:30:08
  flag, I'll As the slack comes out of the lead rope, I'll kind of wave that flag a
• 1:30:13
  bit, probably towards their flank, but I'm not trying to move them over, I'm trying
• 1:30:17
  to have them think back down along their body, and so I'm really trying to get
• 1:30:20
  their mind connected to the lead rope, to where as when I pick up on the lead
• 1:30:23
  rope, any time they feel pressure on the lead rope, their mind follows it, I'm
• 1:30:27
  not really trying to get their body to follow it, their body follows their and I
• 1:30:31
  want their mind to follow that lead rope.
• 1:30:32
  So right there, I'd be, you know, they're, they're leaving, they're heading off away
• 1:30:39
  from me because their mind, their thought was so strong, it pulled their body.
• 1:30:44
  With it and when they get to the lead rope What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna redirect
• 1:30:48
  their attention back to the present So now their mind and their body are back
• 1:30:51
  in the same place at the same time, you know No different than if someone was
• 1:30:55
  experienced, you know, let's say I was with someone who said well, you know what?
• 1:31:00
  I'm like, I'm like, how you going?
• 1:31:02
  Like, oh, well, I've got this really really busy meeting tomorrow And
• 1:31:05
  and I'm afraid I might mess it up.
• 1:31:06
  And you know, so they're Their, their body's in today, but their mind's
• 1:31:09
  in tomorrow and they're thinking about, you know, some presentation
• 1:31:13
  they've got to do, I might say, Hey, let's do a little exercise.
• 1:31:16
  I want you to, I want you to cast your eyes around and
• 1:31:18
  name five things you can see.
• 1:31:22
  And now I want you to name four things you can hear.
• 1:31:26
  And then I want you to name three things you can feel.
• 1:31:29
  And I want you to name two things you can smell.
• 1:31:32
  And then one thing you can, one thing you can taste.
• 1:31:35
  And when they do that, their mind leaves tomorrow's presentation
• 1:31:40
  and comes back to the present.
• 1:31:42
  So all that, all that is right there is I'm just, with the horses, I'm just
• 1:31:45
  basically doing a little cognitive behavior therapy thing, getting
• 1:31:48
  their mind and their body back in the same place at the same time.
• 1:31:52
  But I'll only, I'll only interrupt that if their thoughts get so strong,
• 1:31:56
  their feet move and their feet move enough to where they get to, to the end
• 1:32:01
  of the, to the end of the lead rope.
• 1:32:05
  Rupert Isaacson: I could see that being a very very good exercise
• 1:32:08
  with certain people in the therapeutic writing environment to
• 1:32:18
  particularly people, you know, where there's a lot of anxiety.
• 1:32:21
  Because what's, what I love about what you just said there, there's nothing, there's
• 1:32:24
  nothing essentially triggering in that.
• 1:32:26
  It's just, no, it's not,
• 1:32:27
  Warwick Schiller: it's not that you're wrong.
• 1:32:28
  You're not wrong.
• 1:32:29
  It's not that you shouldn't be doing that.
• 1:32:31
  It's just a redirect and a redirection of their, their focus.
• 1:32:36
  Cause they're very focused on yourself when you're
• 1:32:38
  Rupert Isaacson: anxious.
• 1:32:39
  I
• 1:32:42
  Warwick Schiller: don't get anxious that often.
• 1:32:44
  But yeah, no, it's, it's, and that's something that, you know, my wife
• 1:32:47
  teaches that one quite a bit, the, the five, you know, she calls it
• 1:32:50
  the, the five things exercise.
• 1:32:53
  Yeah, it's just really good at bringing.
• 1:32:55
  Where
• 1:32:56
  Rupert Isaacson: did, where did Robin get that one from?
• 1:32:57
  Do you know?
• 1:32:59
  Warwick Schiller: Possibly from she's certified in something called neurofit.
• 1:33:02
  Maybe it came from there.
• 1:33:03
  I'm not sure.
• 1:33:03
  It's, it's, it's, it's a pretty common, I think neurofit behavior therapy, neurofit.
• 1:33:09
  Yeah.
• 1:33:09
  Worth looking into.
• 1:33:11
  It's, I think it's a pretty common sort of a.
• 1:33:16
  You know, cognitive behavior therapy thing.
• 1:33:17
  I was, I was going to some group therapy years ago and they were talking about
• 1:33:21
  this thing that they call the half smile.
• 1:33:23
  And they said, if you start to get in your head and get a bit anxious about
• 1:33:25
  something or other, do this half smile.
• 1:33:28
  And what the half smile involves is tightening up the muscles around
• 1:33:32
  your mouth to where you engage the muscles that would make a smile.
• 1:33:37
  Except if someone was watching you, they couldn't see it happen.
• 1:33:40
  So it's not a smile.
• 1:33:42
  It's less than a smile.
• 1:33:43
  It's like a half hold versus a hold.
• 1:33:45
  It's like this little engagement of these muscles.
• 1:33:48
  And I said, what is the physiological thing?
• 1:33:50
  What, what, what, what's the physiological thing that will
• 1:33:53
  make you calmer when you do that?
• 1:33:55
  And these, the two therapists couldn't tell me and I said, Is there a
• 1:33:59
  physiological thing or is it such a subtle movement You really have to focus on doing
• 1:34:07
  it and you have to let go of whatever you were worried about Whereas if it was
• 1:34:11
  a full smile You can that you can just whack on your face and not even think
• 1:34:15
  about it Your mind does not have to leave that other thing in order to do this.
• 1:34:20
  You ready?
• 1:34:21
  Ruid, here we go.
• 1:34:23
  You know, big old cheesy grin.
• 1:34:25
  You don't have to think about that.
• 1:34:26
  You can think about something else and do the cheesy grin.
• 1:34:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Also, the che, the cheesy grin could be gritting my teeth.
• 1:34:33
  It's almost gritting your teeth too.
• 1:34:34
  Warwick Schiller: But the other thing is, but this half smile, you
• 1:34:38
  actually have to constant because the thing is no one can see you do it.
• 1:34:43
  Right.
• 1:34:43
  If, if someone can see you doing it, you did it too big and so you've really got
• 1:34:47
  to get, go within and really think of it.
• 1:34:50
  So I think that's, I think a lot of those things do that is they just,
• 1:34:54
  they're exercises that take your mind off what you're concerned about
• 1:35:00
  and put it more in the present.
• 1:35:03
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking up half smiles again on Dr.
• 1:35:05
  Google as with, Oh,
• 1:35:07
  Warwick Schiller: is there a thing called a half smile on Dr.
• 1:35:08
  Google?
• 1:35:08
  There is a thing.
• 1:35:09
  Rupert Isaacson: It's a, it's a whole thing.
• 1:35:10
  And it seems to be.
• 1:35:12
  The first thing that comes to us is dialectical behavior therapy
• 1:35:16
  skill, half smile technique, engaging the facial muscles that are
• 1:35:21
  associated with positive emotions.
• 1:35:23
  It can help reduce feelings of stress.
• 1:35:24
  I'm just wondering though what, I might need to look into it.
• 1:35:29
  To see what chemicals are actually going on.
• 1:35:32
  I wonder if it's a small serotonin release, even.
• 1:35:35
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah, well that's, that was my question.
• 1:35:37
  Is, is, is there an actual physiological thing going on?
• 1:35:40
  Or is it just, is it just something so minutely technical that you have
• 1:35:45
  to, you have to think about it?
• 1:35:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, it is a serotonin release, apparently.
• 1:35:53
  It is a serotonin,
• 1:35:54
  Warwick Schiller: okay, there you go.
• 1:35:55
  Look at that.
• 1:35:56
  So imagine there's that too, but there's also the And it relaxes your heart rate.
• 1:36:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Lowers your blood pressure.
• 1:36:04
  Warwick Schiller: Okay,
• 1:36:04
  Rupert Isaacson: there you go.
• 1:36:06
  Warwick Schiller: The half
• 1:36:06
  Rupert Isaacson: smile.
• 1:36:08
  Well, you know, jaw flexions, as you know, with horses, the, you know, the
• 1:36:14
  key to the back being the front, if the jaw is tense, where everything
• 1:36:18
  is tense, same in people, right?
• 1:36:20
  So frequently If I need to get people to relax, I'll have a bunch of silly stuff
• 1:36:28
  that I do which involves making stupid sounds and being consciously stupid.
• 1:36:34
  Because it just relaxes the jaw.
• 1:36:37
  Because our jaws get so tight so fast.
• 1:36:40
  Letting go of that sympathetic response that we're in.
• 1:36:46
  Listening to you talk, you know, you're talking about clinic,
• 1:36:50
  clinicking and workshop settings.
• 1:36:53
  And where one sees changes happening sometimes relatively quickly and in
• 1:37:00
  therapy sessions, equine assisted sessions, similar things can happen.
• 1:37:05
  But one of the things that springs to mind is, just as we were talking about
• 1:37:09
  how Many horses and most people don't get to live in the way that our organisms
• 1:37:15
  are designed for anymore And you were talking about that undirected movement
• 1:37:20
  and then you said things like well horses don't really go sideways in nature I say
• 1:37:23
  actually no But they do I've seen them like walking up the side of the fence
• 1:37:26
  that way and they'll absolutely cross their legs But they're not doing it
• 1:37:33
  But that's that's
• 1:37:34
  Warwick Schiller: That's, that's anxiety and, and there's also a
• 1:37:37
  human built structure in there.
• 1:37:39
  It might or
• 1:37:40
  Rupert Isaacson: might not be.
• 1:37:41
  Well,
• 1:37:41
  Warwick Schiller: I'm talking about, someone's trying to ride a horse in
• 1:37:44
  a circle to the left and the horse is running its shoulder out to the right.
• 1:37:47
  I got it.
• 1:37:48
  The horse wants to go right, he's going to go right, he's not going to go sideways.
• 1:37:51
  I get it.
• 1:37:53
  There's no one trying to control
• 1:37:54
  Rupert Isaacson: it.
• 1:37:55
  It's the no one's trying to control it thing.
• 1:37:57
  Yes.
• 1:37:58
  So.
• 1:37:59
  Let's take the fence away and the horse isn't stressed.
• 1:38:02
  Let's say there's just some sort of natural barrier there.
• 1:38:04
  I don't know, like rocks or.
• 1:38:07
  Brush, and they're
• 1:38:09
  Warwick Schiller: noticing, but the, but their body will, their
• 1:38:12
  body will be set up to do the thing they're trying to do exactly.
• 1:38:15
  Mind and their body will not be separated, but you see someone
• 1:38:18
  trying to ride a 20 meter circle to the left and the horse's mind is
• 1:38:20
  trying to drag him off to the right.
• 1:38:21
  But the horse is doing a 20 meter circle left while they're
• 1:38:24
  wishing that was somewhere else.
• 1:38:25
  That doesn't happen in nature.
• 1:38:26
  If a horse wants to be over there, he'll go over there.
• 1:38:30
  Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
• 1:38:31
  As will a human, right?
• 1:38:33
  So a natural living human will also follow where their intentions and thoughts
• 1:38:39
  are because we're hunter gatherers.
• 1:38:41
  I guess that's that that's what springs to mind from what you're saying is the really
• 1:38:49
  natural way to be on a horse if one can ever say there is a natural way to be
• 1:38:52
  on a horse because obviously God didn't Make horses to carry monkeys and monkeys
• 1:38:56
  getting on horses as a monkey idea.
• 1:38:58
  Okay, fine, but maybe we are God I don't know but what I'm sure
• 1:39:04
  you've noticed and you know, you came back from the Gaucho Derby.
• 1:39:08
  And what I've noticed in long journeys on horseback that I've made, Mongolia's
• 1:39:13
  one, or all of the hunting that I did growing up, which are always kind of
• 1:39:18
  eight hour days on horseback, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, is that it's
• 1:39:24
  a saying, you know, as you know, the horse that you have in hour three is
• 1:39:28
  not the horse you had in hour one, and the horse you have by hour five is,
• 1:39:34
  there's just no separation, you just are.
• 1:39:36
  Yeah.
• 1:39:37
  And.
• 1:39:40
  whether it's in family systems, social systems, client based systems,
• 1:39:45
  healing systems, riding systems, we just don't get the time, you know.
• 1:39:53
  Let's say someone comes in and says oh, I've got this problem.
• 1:39:55
  Exactly what you're saying there They are in that 20 meter circle, but the
• 1:39:58
  horse's head is over, thoughts are over there, shoulders falling out Therefore
• 1:40:03
  there's kick and pull happening and blah blah blah blah blah But that same
• 1:40:06
  person and that same horse riding that same circle in hour five three of a day
• 1:40:15
  on horseback I would warrant that that thing would not be happening because
• 1:40:20
  there there would be that harmony of Usually you see, if they survive together
• 1:40:25
  that long, there's harmony of purpose.
• 1:40:28
  Similarly, you know, in a healing situation, in a true healing ritual,
• 1:40:31
  it's hours and hours and hours, you know, there's just time to relax into it.
• 1:40:37
  When someone comes for, I'm going to work my horse now, I've got a job, I
• 1:40:41
  come home from my job, I'm going to work my horse for an hour, and then
• 1:40:44
  I'm going to go, or I'm, the person is coming for this therapy session, they're
• 1:40:49
  coming for an hour, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or there's no time.
• 1:40:55
  And I wonder how much of the stresses that we see that become cumulative and
• 1:41:01
  compounded is just that we're not ranging across nature, you know, neither us
• 1:41:07
  nor the horse together as we should be.
• 1:41:10
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I think people with horses, it's not so
• 1:41:13
  much time Like with an example you gave there, it's not so much time.
• 1:41:18
  What people tend to do with horses is something they will not do in
• 1:41:21
  any other part of their life, which is have a plan that's unchangeable.
• 1:41:27
  And another, an analogy I like to use is what I call milk and eggs.
• 1:41:31
  So if I'm doing a clinic, I'll say, is anybody here write a shopping list?
• 1:41:35
  Someone put the hand up and say, okay, so where do you shop?
• 1:41:38
  And they might say Safeway is a popular supermarket here in America.
• 1:41:44
  And I said, okay, so you would write on your piece of paper, Safeway, underline,
• 1:41:48
  underline, and then below that you'd write milk and eggs, and they go, yes, and I
• 1:41:52
  said, okay, would you ever take that note, that's what I'm doing today, go out to
• 1:41:56
  the car, and as you go to get in the car, you notice you've got a flat front tire,
• 1:42:00
  would you consult your list, and let's see if I've got any tire pumping on my list
• 1:42:05
  today, nope, no tire pumping on my list, I'm just going to drive to the store.
• 1:42:09
  You would not do that anywhere in life.
• 1:42:12
  You'd go, hang on, let me put aside my list for a minute because
• 1:42:16
  I need to address this tire.
• 1:42:18
  We don't do it with cars, but we definitely do it with horses.
• 1:42:21
  People go, this is what I'm going to do today.
• 1:42:23
  I'm going to do this and this and this.
• 1:42:24
  And if the horse presents something else along the way, But being in the moment
• 1:42:29
  going, Oh, I need to fix this first.
• 1:42:32
  They will tend to just keep doing their they will tend to keep doing their plan.
• 1:42:37
  Whereas for me, training horses, it's like, okay, this is what
• 1:42:42
  I'm planning on doing today.
• 1:42:44
  But Oh, the horse tells me we need to work on this.
• 1:42:46
  Okay.
• 1:42:47
  We'll go, we'll go there.
• 1:42:48
  It's just like following Rowan.
• 1:42:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:42:50
  No, totally.
• 1:42:50
  Totally.
• 1:42:51
  You know what I
• 1:42:51
  Warwick Schiller: mean?
• 1:42:51
  Like today, Rowan and I are going, when Rowan was young, like today,
• 1:42:56
  Rowan and I are going to, we're going to try and do this thing.
• 1:42:59
  Oh, hang on.
• 1:43:00
  There goes Rowan.
• 1:43:00
  Okay.
• 1:43:01
  Forget that.
• 1:43:01
  Rowan's down the Creek looking at frogs.
• 1:43:03
  Okay.
• 1:43:03
  We're now looking at frogs.
• 1:43:06
  Rupert Isaacson: You know what I mean?
• 1:43:07
  Yeah.
• 1:43:08
  And the looking at frogs is no loss because suddenly through
• 1:43:11
  the frogs, my God, the portals open to all these other things.
• 1:43:14
  Warwick Schiller: Yes.
• 1:43:15
  I really think that whatever shows up is what needs to be done right.
• 1:43:20
  Right then and that's where you kind of got to be got to be present,
• 1:43:23
  you know And I imagine it's hard in a therapeutic session with the
• 1:43:26
  horses and people and whatever but like I said, I'm not really in that
• 1:43:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think I think I think that there is a real value to just
• 1:43:34
  simply putting your attention there So as you say, there are certain pressures
• 1:43:44
  Because we have this follow the child thing for example within horse boy we talk
• 1:43:49
  to parents Or caregivers before they come and say we're going to work in this way.
• 1:43:55
  So you're not going to be surprised by the fact that it seems
• 1:43:58
  chaotic when we just follow the
• 1:44:00
  kid.
• 1:44:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Or if the kid doesn't want the horse that we're
• 1:44:02
  doing something else or whatever.
• 1:44:04
  But here is why.
• 1:44:06
  Because we do understand that in your mind you are coming here for
• 1:44:09
  this thing called a therapy session with a horse So therefore it's a lot.
• 1:44:14
  It's reasonable for you to be alarmed if you see that not happening but Therefore
• 1:44:21
  because of that we will honor that and explain in advance a lot why we work this
• 1:44:27
  way from the neuroscience point of view and tell you why It's likely to work and
• 1:44:34
  if it's really not for you, okay, fine.
• 1:44:36
  It's all right.
• 1:44:36
  We in our experience This is how it works better.
• 1:44:43
  I think the point that you're making you keep saying well I'm not you know
• 1:44:46
  familiar with that therapy environment, but of course really all of your
• 1:44:50
  Workshops are therapy environments.
• 1:44:52
  They are people come and they find change They find that they're
• 1:44:58
  liberated from constraints.
• 1:45:01
  Warwick Schiller: No, I, I, I get, they turn out that way, but, but not
• 1:45:04
  the setup therapy environment where this child is going to get on this
• 1:45:08
  horse and the horse has to do what he's got to do right now for the child.
• 1:45:12
  Indeed.
• 1:45:12
  Rupert Isaacson: I guess what I've been trying to sort of.
• 1:45:15
  Rope for when I, when I say, you know, ask, asking you what, what
• 1:45:20
  are the little tools you might use?
• 1:45:21
  And you have actually been quite articulate about them that you've,
• 1:45:24
  you've, you've really talked about matching steps, looking where they look.
• 1:45:27
  These kinds of things are actually not intuitive for people.
• 1:45:31
  And it's really helpful to hear them actually say, why not?
• 1:45:34
  Why not actually try looking where they look?
• 1:45:36
  Why not actually try matching steps?
• 1:45:38
  Why not actually try if they turn away, turn away, you know,
• 1:45:43
  so that you can show you don't.
• 1:45:44
  Want something?
• 1:45:45
  I think what you're touching on, which I think which is helpful, is if there
• 1:45:51
  is an Attention, you talked about where thoughts go, if the thoughts of the say
• 1:45:59
  therapeutic equine assisted practitioner Can go towards this attainment thing, just
• 1:46:06
  the thoughts Okay, they have to deliver the session, but just the thoughts.
• 1:46:13
  I would posit that it's going to go better, wouldn't you?
• 1:46:16
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I think it's, it's a bit like, it's
• 1:46:19
  a bit like bedside manner.
• 1:46:21
  You know what I mean?
• 1:46:21
  Can you imagine being an old person in a, in some sort of a home, like an
• 1:46:26
  aged care facility, and someone brings in your food, sits a tray down, walks
• 1:46:30
  out, someone comes in, dust your bed, whatever, cleans the room, whatever.
• 1:46:33
  They don't even look at you.
• 1:46:34
  They don't say hello.
• 1:46:35
  Like you're just an object.
• 1:46:37
  Whereas, and I feel a lot of horses are treated like objects, whereas
• 1:46:45
  Whereas if you can just make that connection and I'm not talking about
• 1:46:47
  I'm not talking about any magical thing, but just like Hey, how's it going?
• 1:46:53
  I'm like, I talk to my horses like they're people like, Hey, how's it going today?
• 1:46:56
  You know?
• 1:46:56
  I think that they, they know that, you know, you know what I mean?
• 1:47:00
  They, they're, they're aware of your awareness of them.
• 1:47:06
  And they're, they're aware of your non awareness of them and, and.
• 1:47:09
  How they interact with you depends on, on how you show up, you know,
• 1:47:13
  like I said about Bundy's testing thing, you know, I think they just
• 1:47:18
  like to know who they're dealing with.
• 1:47:20
  And I feel like if you can.
• 1:47:26
  Communicate your awareness of them and not, not just have
• 1:47:31
  them like an object in the room.
• 1:47:35
  It's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a, I think, I think it's a, the outcome
• 1:47:40
  can be totally different or at least significantly different, but they
• 1:47:43
  certainly feel different about, I think horses level of consciousness
• 1:47:48
  and their awareness is way more than, than you know, most people.
• 1:47:54
  Most people believe, and yeah, they really, they basically know when you're,
• 1:47:59
  they know when you're aware and they know when you're not, you know, I had a podcast
• 1:48:02
  guest a couple of years ago who was his name's Ty Murray, was a world champion
• 1:48:06
  rodeo cowboy, but he's really into the horsemanship stuff now, and he said one
• 1:48:10
  line during our podcast conversation that I wanted to circle back to, but we got
• 1:48:14
  off track and went somewhere else, but his line was, you need to be aware of
• 1:48:20
  them the moment they become aware of you.
• 1:48:24
  Like you walk out the back door and your horse is, you know, you know, six acres
• 1:48:28
  away and his head pops up and looks at you, you need to know that he noticed you.
• 1:48:33
  And there seems to be an awareness of your awareness
• 1:48:39
  Rupert Isaacson: and that, and
• 1:48:40
  Warwick Schiller: even before you get anywhere near him,
• 1:48:41
  that will make a difference.
• 1:48:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:48:45
  Back to what you said about being seen.
• 1:48:47
  Why is being seen or gotten?
• 1:48:50
  Important because mammal to mammal, it makes you feel safe.
• 1:48:54
  Yeah.
• 1:48:55
  I mean, if, if I feel that you are noticing what I'm noticing and seeing
• 1:49:00
  me as me, then I think there's a chance that if there's a danger
• 1:49:05
  I don't see and you do, you might alert me to it and help me out of it.
• 1:49:11
  Warwick Schiller: Yes.
• 1:49:12
  I really believe that's the, that's the underlying thing of the whole thing.
• 1:49:18
  You know, I feel like horses You know, people talk about
• 1:49:21
  trust with horses and stuff.
• 1:49:22
  And I feel like there's two types of trust your horse can have about you.
• 1:49:28
  The first one's pretty easy.
• 1:49:29
  I trust you're not going to hurt me.
• 1:49:31
  I trust you're not a danger to me.
• 1:49:32
  That's very easy.
• 1:49:35
  But the other one, which is, I think quite a bit harder is I trust your
• 1:49:39
  awareness enough to communicate danger.
• 1:49:44
  If I don't notice it,
• 1:49:45
  I
• 1:49:47
  Warwick Schiller: trust you on that level.
• 1:49:49
  I trust you with, with my life.
• 1:49:51
  Not, not, I trust that you're not going to kill me.
• 1:49:55
  It's I trust that you are aware enough to alert me to danger that I don't see.
• 1:50:01
  S
• 1:50:02
  Rupert Isaacson: that you've got my back basically.
• 1:50:03
  Yeah.
• 1:50:03
  Warwick Schiller: Yes, that too.
• 1:50:04
  And, and so for me, every interaction you have with them all day, it's, it's
• 1:50:11
  raising and lowering the trust meter.
• 1:50:13
  Like just communicating your awareness of things.
• 1:50:17
  It's so true.
• 1:50:18
  That's, yeah.
• 1:50:19
  I think that's the, I think that's the holy grail.
• 1:50:21
  Rupert Isaacson: And then when, when a relationship gets damaged
• 1:50:24
  as well, it it, as you say, it's a holy grail because it allows you.
• 1:50:27
  You talked about resilience, it allows 'em to bounce back.
• 1:50:30
  Got a horse right now.
• 1:50:30
  Well,
• 1:50:31
  Warwick Schiller: sorry, can I just interrupt there for
• 1:50:33
  Rupert Isaacson: a second?
• 1:50:33
  Yeah, go ahead.
• 1:50:35
  Warwick Schiller: I, I saw something a while ago.
• 1:50:37
  A therapist actually showed me and, and it was like this circle and
• 1:50:40
  had three words around the circle.
• 1:50:41
  At the top of the circle.
• 1:50:42
  It said connection, and then there was an arrow went around the circle
• 1:50:46
  to the next word that said rupture.
• 1:50:48
  And then there was an arrow went around the next part of the circle
• 1:50:50
  to the next word that said repair.
• 1:50:51
  And then an arrow finished the circle off, went back to connection.
• 1:50:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:50:55
  Warwick Schiller: The thing about, I always tell people, don't worry about
• 1:50:59
  rupturing your connection because When it ruptures when you notice it
• 1:51:05
  ruptures and you take a make amends and you do the repair One thing is
• 1:51:09
  you're saying you notice the rupture
• 1:51:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm,
• 1:51:12
  Warwick Schiller: and then you take the time and effort to do the repair and now
• 1:51:16
  you're back to connection But you're not in the same connection you were in before
• 1:51:19
  because you guys have just been through
• 1:51:21
  a little bit
• 1:51:22
  Warwick Schiller: of trouble and you've told them that you're aware
• 1:51:24
  of the trouble and you're Quite prepared to repair that trouble.
• 1:51:28
  And I said, it's, it's just a connection rupture repair cycle.
• 1:51:32
  You know, like no, no relationship is just connection.
• 1:51:35
  It's true.
• 1:51:36
  Otherwise you're not communicating probably with each other,
• 1:51:39
  but how you really feel,
• 1:51:39
  Rupert Isaacson: you
• 1:51:40
  Warwick Schiller: know?
• 1:51:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:51:41
  Yeah.
• 1:51:41
  Yeah.
• 1:51:41
  Yeah.
• 1:51:42
  And relationships.
• 1:51:43
  Cannot not rupture often for things that are outside the control of whoever the
• 1:51:52
  organisms are within that relationship They can be ruptured by distance.
• 1:51:56
  They can be ruptured by so many things
• 1:52:02
  Equally, you know somebody can have a bad experience on your watch
• 1:52:09
  and lose a bit of trust in you
• 1:52:14
  But it can be repaired and then it's usually a stronger
• 1:52:17
  relationship afterwards.
• 1:52:18
  Yeah.
• 1:52:19
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah, like you make a mistake You do something stupid, somebody
• 1:52:22
  else is offended, you can either ignore it or you go, Hey, I'm really sorry.
• 1:52:26
  I realized that I upset you when I said that.
• 1:52:28
  And I probably shouldn't have said that.
• 1:52:30
  When you get through that repair, they think more of you than
• 1:52:32
  they did before you screwed up.
• 1:52:34
  You know what I mean?
• 1:52:35
  I think that's.
• 1:52:37
  That's
• 1:52:37
  Rupert Isaacson: let's have a
• 1:52:37
  Warwick Schiller: look at
• 1:52:38
  Rupert Isaacson: that.
• 1:52:38
  Warwick Schiller: Just hold it down a bit.
• 1:52:39
  Just hold it still.
• 1:52:40
  Yeah, I, I, so, you know, I, a lot of people when they get into this whole
• 1:52:44
  connection stuff with their horses, they want to, I don't want to ever lose
• 1:52:49
  connection and that, that's the problem is not wanting to lose connection.
• 1:52:55
  Yes, it is.
• 1:52:56
  It is.
• 1:52:56
  It's, it's not, it's, I don't ever want to lose, like, Oh, I might, I don't want
• 1:53:01
  to do that cause I might lose connection.
• 1:53:02
  If you.
• 1:53:03
  Do that one thing, whatever it is, and you lose connection and
• 1:53:06
  you don't ever get it back again.
• 1:53:07
  It wasn't really connected in the first place.
• 1:53:08
  It was very, it was very superficial sort of thing.
• 1:53:13
  But it's, yeah, that whole, I'm really big on that connection
• 1:53:15
  rupture repair cycle these days.
• 1:53:17
  It's yeah, I, I believe that's how the relationships grow and that connection
• 1:53:22
  becomes much deeper and with horses, it's because you're communicating
• 1:53:27
  your awareness of the rupture.
• 1:53:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Rupture and repair, basically.
• 1:53:32
  It's faith, right, because it, it allows you to know that it can rupture, it
• 1:53:39
  will repair, so you can have faith.
• 1:53:42
  Warwick Schiller: Yeah.
• 1:53:43
  And if you've ever had a lot of those, the next time there's a rupture,
• 1:53:46
  it's not the end of the world.
• 1:53:48
  Yeah.
• 1:53:48
  Oh, okay.
• 1:53:49
  Cause I know we're going to come out the other side of this.
• 1:53:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and you've got some skills you know what to do
• 1:53:55
  to come out of the other side of it Yeah, well, that's the other thing.
• 1:53:58
  Yeah, the
• 1:53:58
  Warwick Schiller: repair skills.
• 1:54:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:54:02
  Well, I know it's a right about just over the two hour mark and We may have
• 1:54:09
  to rupture at this point Because I know that you have to go and do Things today.
• 1:54:15
  You are nine hours behind me.
• 1:54:17
  I'll leave you soon.
• 1:54:18
  So I hope that we can repair and reconnect Would love to And go further into this.
• 1:54:25
  Yeah, it's
• 1:54:29
  those people who most people are aware of you Most people are aware
• 1:54:32
  of me are aware of you But for the people who are not aware of you and
• 1:54:35
  also people who want to dive deeper into your resources on Attunement
• 1:54:44
  give us the resources.
• 1:54:45
  Where can they go?
• 1:54:47
  Warwick Schiller: My website warwickschiller.
• 1:54:48
  com or if you want to go to the video library it's videos.
• 1:54:51
  warwickschiller.
• 1:54:52
  com I have a Facebook page, I have a Facebook group, Warwick Schiller Attuned
• 1:54:57
  Horsemanship, and I have a podcast where I first met Rupert Sheldrake.
• 1:55:02
  Rupert Sheldrake, yeah, that guy too.
• 1:55:05
  Rupert Isaacson.
• 1:55:06
  I want him on mine.
• 1:55:07
  Yeah, I want him on mine too.
• 1:55:09
  And it's called The Journey on Podcast.
• 1:55:10
  It's available on all Journey all the podcast apps and it's,
• 1:55:15
  yeah, it's more explorations of consciousness than anything, but yeah.
• 1:55:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.
• 1:55:20
  All right, Warwick.
• 1:55:20
  Well, thank you again.
• 1:55:23
  Once
• 1:55:23
  Warwick Schiller: again.
• 1:55:23
  Pleasure chatting with you as usual.
• 1:55:25
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 1:55:26
  Till the next time.
• 1:55:27
  Give my love to everyone.
• 1:55:28
  Warwick Schiller: I shall.
• 1:55:30
  Bye.
• 1:55:31
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• 1:55:35
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• 1:55:40
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